What's interesting about videogames is that we're able to keep a coherrent story and through your choices progress the world as you progress yourself. The choices you do should feel as they have an impact on what's happening around you, and this is where BioWare fails. Any choice you do won't have any effect on what happens around you. In Dragon Age everything you do is an isolated part of the world. If you help the dwarves first it won't impact anything in the rest of the world. They all just come down to what armies you have in the end. But not only that, the game is standing still in time until you reach the final boss. Nothing ever changes. The same with Mass Effect. Instead of making the choices you do impact the world you're in they promised that they would have an impact on the sequel, but the problem is as you've all noticed that these choices would completely ruin it for a new player and can't therefore have any heavy impact on the game. Instead we're treated small cameos. The only progressing choice you do in Mass Effect 2 is to get all loyalties and make all the ship upgrades but really, this is just 'stocking up on ammo before you go into a firefight' and not any real 'choice'. In short I think that BioWare is taking the genre in the wrong direction. Instead of evolving the genre they're regressing it.

Disclaimer: I know that ME2 is a TPS with shallow RPG elements but it's being hailed as an RPG which makes it valid in the discussion.

>take a game that isn't an RPG
>complain how RPGs have changed

WAIFU THREAD!

It's seemed to me I was the only person who doesn't like ME2. I guess not. I mean, it's soooooo boring. It's the same mission over and over. The shooting still feels rudimentary as hell. If they really wanted this to be a FPS with RPG elements, at least add the ability to shoot from cover, FFS.

>This is a serious thread

Hurr that's just asking to be derailed.

Anyway no Bioware isn't killing the RPG-genre it's just dieing off on it's own. The RPGs you speak of aren't gonna rack in the profits, and with game making being so much more expensive, that's critical.

Bioware's doing what they have to do to make an enjoyable RPG experience, while still making money. And don't say shit like "Oh I wouldn't mind if the game was a little less polished if it meant more freedom" because they have to do that to please EA.

>>49169106
2/10

>>49169106
To clarify, I meant to shoot while still behind cover, not that gay ass jumping up to shoot shit. And my bad, it's a TPS, not a FPS.

>>49169019

GARRUS THREAD

>Complain about Bioware's approach to RPGs.

>Don't give comparisons of how the OP thinks it should be done.

Bioware isn't ruining the RPG-genre.

They're very slowly evolving it so the focus is less on combat and more on your progression through the story and ability to affect things around you.

If anything, they're making their games more like a table top RPG than most cRPGs have done in the past (with a few notable exceptions).

Were most of the choices that carried over from ME1 to ME2 disappointing in how they played out? Sure, quite a few of them were, but you don't generally see this sort of thing at all. Hopefully they can expand on this in ME3.

I've heard a lot of people over the years say they want another Baldur's Gate 2 and lament that it will never happen again. Maybe. The only way it's really going to happen is using a ME sort of model of a multi-game series with save carry overs and DLC.

tl;dr: I see the Mass Effect series taking RPGs in a positive direction.

>>49169588
Did someone say GARRUS THREAD?

The problem with Bioware games its the at times subpar writing. All their games follow the same basic story structure , the choices are almost crystal clear good guy or bad guy, almost all npc are filler...

Just finishing playing The Witcher which makes it much more obvious.

Her breasts pressed flat against the cool expanse of glass of the fish tank. She rested her cheek against her arm and puffed out heated breaths that fogged the glass next to her mouth, “So this is what you--” she gasped at a particularly aggressive thrust, “m-meant by 'unloading the clip'?”

The turian behind her did little more than growl in response, lifting her thigh to gain better access to his target. He placed his free hand against the glass next to his lover's head to help balance himself, the other hand held her thigh in its precarious position. The muted sound of her flesh slapping against his plating was arousing in itself, but adding her panting and moaning was nearly too much. The talons of his hand dug into the soft flesh of her leg which elicited a pained grunt from his partner and a hitch in his thrusts, “Sorry.” He cursed his overzealous actions.

>>49170115
“Don't be,” her tips of her fingers pressed into the glass in a near clawing motion. It was true that it had been a very long time since she had been with anyone at all. Most of these sensations felt like a brand new experience. In all honesty, most of the tissue with which she was feeling this pleasure hadn't even been part of her the last time she'd had the opportunity to enjoy anything like it. In the physical sense, she was a virgin. The thought made her grin.

His sharp thrusts pushed her against the glass and pulled her skin in a slightly uncomfortable manner, though there was no way in hell she'd speak a word of her discomfort and ruin something so good. However, it didn't seem as if she needed to when the turian picked her body up with ease, still remaining attached in the most intimate of ways. She felt like a rag doll, allowing her arms and legs to hang ungracefully after having found no proper way in which to hold them. In a few long strides he laid her on her knees on the bed, positioning himself behind her and placing one foot on the bed for better leverage.

>>49170171
His plating had only been the smallest of problems and she bore a few scuffs and an earful of sincere apologies for it. The biggest problem had been reminding her companion that she was not of his kind and therefore quite squishy and vulnerable, as evidenced by the bruise that would soon form on her thigh. Though it horrified him to think of causing her pain, she was loving every minute of it. Laying her face on it's side, she glanced back to look at his sharp talon-like toes. She traced her finger over the top of one of them and giggled as he was shaken from his reverie, head back, mandibles flared, mouth slightly ajar. “Obviously I'm doing something wrong,” he replied with the tiniest of turian smirks as he urged her over to her back. She loved the gravelly quality of his voice.

“Oh no, you're doing everything very ri--” she gasped as he sank into her with such haste that it caught her off guard. She gritted her teeth as he continued his motions, allowing little time for her to adjust.

This is why we can't have nice things.

>>49170255
“See? That's more... what I'm looking for...” he panted, peering through half-lidded eyes at the apex of their joining. He couldn't quite figure out if he was enjoying this so much because she was human and the experience was new or if it was because it was, well, her. No matter how many times he told her and himself that this was simply a means to “blow off steam,” he knew that he was in deeper than he wanted to admit. He'd briefly pondered such a relationship before the incident occurred two years ago, before Shepherd had died. He'd squelched any idea of such at the first signs of Lieutenant Alenko's interests. However, with Kaidan out of the picture it left him room to explore his prospects freely.

He gripped her hips and pushed in fully, marveling at how soft and pliant her skin was. Turian females were plated as he was. The only soft parts of their body were their lower belly and inner thighs to allow for easier mating. The jut of their hips allowed for the perfect place to grip. The human female form wasn't so different really, save for the plating and a few other minor details. He placed his palm flat against her chest between her breasts. They jiggled with each thrust and he was amazed at how satisfying the sight was. There were many visually appealing parts of her body. He was quite fond of her curvy nature, nice hips and breasts, lean legs, toned arms and waist... Turian females were angular in shape, having few curves beyond the dips of their waists. He was afraid that she may have ruined sex with his own kind for him. His inner self smirked at the thought.

>>49170315
Her eyes fluttered open to peer up at him. She rested her small hand on top of his large one placed on her chest, curling her fingers around it. “Here,” she moved his palm to her breast. He hadn't touched her there because he was too concerned he would injure her with his talons. She smiled a lopsided grin as he explored the new area with great interest, lightly pinching and grabbing and prodding. He was still unsure of himself, but it was a start. She moaned as his dextrous digits touched her in just the right way.

He clenched his jaw as a wave of passion roared through his loins and he locked his eyes with hers. The moment suddenly left him feeling shy and embarrassed. It was too intimate of a moment to be shared by friends. He almost wanted to look away, pull his hand back, apologize and run off to the lower decks to finish this alone. He probably would have had she not rested her free hand on his cheek and thumbed the plating there. A smile graced her lips, one he'd never seen her wear before. It was so gentle and, dare he say, sweet that he found it impossible not to kiss her. He leaned down to her and she pressed her forehead against his lovingly, followed by a trail of mouth kisses from his cheeks to his forehead and back down to his own mouth. He felt strangely inadequate, unable to really return the kiss with his own nonexistent lips.

>>49170360
The moment became more heated at she bucked her hips upwards into his, meeting him thrust for thrust. Pale thighs were pushed forward as he moved to take their spot on the bed, placing his knees flat on the mattress and curling his body protectively over hers. Placing her fingers around the back of his neck, she pressed hot kisses to his cheeks and mandibles, stopping only to catch her breath.

“Garrus,” she whimpered helplessly against the side of his face and he pressed his forehead against her shoulder, kissing her the only way he really knew how. Stars flooded her vision and she arched her back into him, her breasts pressing against the plating of his chest and her thrusts becoming short and very deliberate. By some great mercy he was able to tell what her body was indicating and quickened his pace, spreading her thighs more fully and mounting her small form dominantly. Her pants came in quick even bursts and soon he could feel her inner muscles clenching around him in a way that was very unlike Turian women. His breath caught in his throat and was quickly forced out in a moan. Thrusts became jagged and disjointed as he found his release. Her lips pressed against his broad shoulder, and she wrapped her arms around his chest possessively as he nearly collapsed on her.

BioWare is, if anything, saving RPGs.

>Freedom to tackle the situations the way you want is nigh but gone in BioWare games.

At least they eliminated that retarded "gain XP for killing enemies" shit that encouraged combat and discouraged dialogue solutions.

Poster's note: Does it bother anyone else that Shepard mysteriously flips over halfway through the story?

>>49170427
“Oh my... Wow...” she managed to say quietly.

“I... Woah...” he replied.

“We are very eloquent,” her attempt at a joke came out in a tiny hoarse voice.

“That was--”

“Amazing,” she finished, running her hands up and down his broad shoulder and back.

“Yes,” his forehead was still planted on her shoulder. His form was boneless, having gone limp shortly after and only her small grunt roused him, “Oh, I'm sorry.” He shifted off of her, sitting on the side of the bed with shaky limbs. It was ridiculous, but he found it impossible to look over his shoulder at her. He wasn't ashamed, but if he turned around all of this would be very real and they would be very naked and still very much friends and that would be very embarrassing because these two friends just shared some of the most amazing sex that he'd ever had. “I should--” he went to stand, but her hand grabbed his shoulder.

“Stay. Please?” The silence was awkward. “I mean, if you want to... If you want to go, that's fine, too.”

Garrus placed his hand on top of hers without turning to face her. “Okay,” his voice was quiet. “But I should say something first.”

“I'm listening.”

>>49170033
>The Witcher

Drinking games and Witchers-fucks-everything-that-moves jokes. Also, dwarf cock.

>>49170537
“I know.” He cleared his throat. “I can't pretend as if this is nothing. This,” he motioned between the two of them with one talon, “is definitely something. I'm not saying that it should be acted on... We both know that beyond the collectors the reapers are out there somewhere. Stirring up these few wasps will only rouse the hive. I can't ask you to be distracted, just as I know you'd never ask that of me, but I will say that I'll be here to “blow off steam” in the mean time. And after... maybe we can have something more permanent...”

He could hear the smile in her voice. The bed shifted under her weight as she moved behind him, wrapping her arms around his shoulders and pressing light kisses to the side of his neck. “You're my best friend, my closest companion. I'd have no other at my side for any battle. I trust you implicitly,” she paused to turn his head to her, looking him straight in the eye. “If we live, I'd want nothing more than to have something permanent with you. All of the sacrifice would be more than worth it if I can have you as my reward.”

>>49170593
His heart swelled at her confession. He wouldn't say what he was thinking. He wouldn't do that to himself or her because he knew that it definitely wasn't the right time and he'd have spoiled that entire speech. Instead, he pressed his forehead to hers and rested his palm on her cheek. He leaned in closer, attempting to mimic her human mouth kisses, but paled as he poked her in the lip with his mandible. She blinked at him in confusion. “I... Th-That was--” he stopped short as she grinned at him.

“We'll have to work on that,” she shifted off of the bed. “I'm going to take a shower. Join me? Maybe we can go find some food after that, huh?”

“Sounds good,” he watched as she sauntered off to the bathroom, hips swaying victoriously. She glanced over her shoulder at him, the promise of something more glinting in her eye before the door slid shut behind her.

>>49169149
The Witcher managed to sell 2 million copies. They want more money, but really? Can't you make a brilliant game and make money at the same time? In my opinion BioWare is just scared. They've come to the point where they can't take 'risks'.

>>49168936
It's not how RPGs have changed, it's how they will change since it's being hailed as an RPG. This post is about ME2 and DRAGON AGE. The picture was chosen because it'd get more views than Dragon Age.

>>49169019
anyone got the pic sequences where shepard sees tali?

I disagree because before ME or DA:O wRPGs were basically dead, already.

>>49169919
No, comparing to other titles such as Fallout, Arcanum, Bloodlines, the Witcher, BioWare has made a considerable STEP DOWN in terms of tackling things your way. As I said anything outside COMBAT and DIALOGUE has been removed from BioWare games. Sneaking, Science, Explosives, anything at all really, all of those things are being removed. The logical evolution you would think would be to expand on the concept but instead they've removed it. The Witcher also did a much better job at affecting the world you're in and progressing with it.

>>49168790

The only games that deserve being called RPGs are Deus Ex and VtM: Bloodlines. Those are games where your choices actually impact the world.

Mass Effect 2 is better than most RPGs. Because most RPGs have crappy stories. and crappy characters. Mass Effect 2 has some really lovable motherfuckers.

>>49171218
They are rather shallow and you never go in on a personal depth with them, it's rather that because you saved the galaxy they want to suck your dick. You're a star and they're your groupies. That's how it's played out. Except for Mordin. The whole interaction with them is so restricted. The only place where you interact with them is when you return back to your camp or ship. It's not an ongoing thing during your adventure. We should further develop the game-medium by increasing interactivity, not staleing it.

>>49171218

5/10

>>49171218
Mass Effect 1 had a good twist in its story but all in all Mass Effect series has quite a sub-par story.

I really don't think this judgement of ME should be made until ME3 is released. ME2 may not have forced us to deal with the ramifications of our prior actions to any great degree, but for all we know ME3 may elaborate on them far moreso.

As regards Dragon Age, it's a fairer point; the choices you make have more immediate consequences which always seem to result in "you have successfully built an army" regardless of how you handled things because every ally you could screw over had an alternative who'd step in. We do, however, know that there's more to come and we also know that the Warden's story will continue. There are certainly choices to be made that reach beyond the end of the first game and we won't know how diverse their consequences will be until we've experienced the entirety of the story.

And even if they do fail to succeed by the time the sequels to these games are released, is it really fair to say Bioware are even close to being the most guilty of this? They may not be taking things as far as we'd like them to, but I think they're trying harder than most. The only recent game I can think of that offered a genuinely diverse array of consequences for your actions was the Witcher, and even that, ultimately, did not extend to the most important aspects of the main quest.

>>49171218

VTM: Bloodlines was one of the worst games I've ever played.

The game ideas and mechanics were clever but everything else was so disgustingly broken and bad it's outrageous.

Last game /v/ recommends to me.

>>49168790
you're ruining it by considering mass effect an rpg you fucking faggot

>>49171931
What the Witcher did good was explaining and telling you how your actions affect the world. There are more subtle choices that reoccured such as not killing the witch in the beginning or helping the merchant or the bandits. The point is that they showed you the result of your choices. In Mass Effect it's simply "MAKE THIS MAJOR DECISION BUT YOU'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT IT HAD FOR EFFECT".

I also think it's justified to judge a game independantly since this is how we isolate our experience, to one game. You do not buy one game to get a third of the experience.

Dragon Age is an awesome game. Fuck the OP.

http://www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/dragon-age-review-the-rageaholic/338234

Perfect summation of why BioWare is awesome, but their (EA's) marketing sucks dick.

>>49172056
Broken in what way? Bugs? Patch it. It's one of the cornerstones of WRPGs.

>>49172174
It's about DRAGON AGE and MASS EFFECT. Read the disclaimer. Sigh, some reading comprehension.

the witcher was a single player MMO

>>49172491
This is discussing the development of RPGs, not hating on a game. I enjoyed Dragon Age but it's shallow as an RPG, so is Mass Effect. I'm talking about RPGs not the GAME industry.

The only progressing choice you do in Mass Effect 2 is to get all loyalties and make all the ship upgrades but really, this is just 'stocking up on ammo before you go into a firefight' and not any real 'choice'

Except no one forces you to do either.

>>49172681
It's not my ability as a leader or a good soldier that keeps them alive, it's my ability to stock up on ammo before the fight that any dimwit would do. Except if you got bored. That's the problem, the choice is if you got bored or not.

I appreciate your attempts OP, but a serious discussion will never grow from 4chan's boards.

wrpgs are pretty much as linear as jrpg, they just attempt to fake a "choice".

>>49173090
I'm beginning to see that. It's like that time I made a thread on /tg/ about a roleplaying game that wasn't DnD. Still, there have been some responses that I enjoyed reading and I'd say that's a win.

RPGs are about three things.

1. Freedom
2. Ability to make choices that affect the world around you.
3. Character development. I'm not talking about a characters level, I'm talking about a characters personality developing.

This is what Mass Effect is all about. The choices you make throughout the series have very noticeable consequences. No other game does this. Most RPGs give you the illusion of choice, but the consequence ends up mostly the same no matter what your choice.

I don't expect that we will see the culmination of most of those choices until ME3. Killing the Rachni, or letting them live. Encouraging the Quarians to make peace or go to war with the Geth. The story in ME3 could be incredibly different for each player.

Bioware has reminded us that RPGs are not about stats, or obtaining more equipment.

>>49168790
well op i'm sorry you had to write all that out, but they're not ruining rpgs.

I felt combat was greatly improved in ME2.
And it's ok to make some missions unreturnable...but I didn't like how all of them were.
Also, the armor customization is cool....but you should still find suits of armor and be able to add attachments and such.
And god dammit, let me run around the presidium.

>>49173391
>Mass Effect, choices effect game
>Implying killing either Samara or Morinth actually effects the game in any way
>Morinth puts on Samara's clothes and can mimic her voice perfectly
Oh cool, my world was really effected when I had to choose whose life to take.

Anyone else notice how there's always the same types of characters in BioWare games?

You have:
The Bro (the guy you meet in the beginning that's a pansy, but it sarcastic and funny at times)
The Hot Chick ("hot" is debatable, but she's the girl that hates you at the beginning but slowly warms up to you by the end)
The Warrior (stern guy that doesn't care about anything you're doing until you begin killing people, then he enjoys your company)
The Nonhuman (some sort of creature that isn't human, and would rather watch the biotic lifeforms die already)
The Sage (wise old lady that helps you throughout your quest that seemingly knows the next step of your quest)


I mean... come on, BioWare, think up of more personalities.

>>49173937
Think back to english class bro, most story's have the same archetypes, you can't really blame bioware for doing the same thing.

INB4 LION KING IS HAMLET etc

>>49173320
I joined the antagonist in the end of Arcanum and then killed off my whole party. How's that for choice? In Bloodlines I stood firm to my own believes and killed everyone paving the path for my own ending.

What would be interesting to see would be if they introduced elements from visual novels where there's a major choice in the beginning that will impact how the game will play out, but from a different perspective. A story can be told from one perspective but giving you the ability to through several other perspectives would add layers to the world. A simple choice in the beginning that branches of into two different paths in the same world that clash at certain points and you see the effect of your absence in the other.

>>49173937
So..?
The Bro (Alistair)
The Hot Chick (Morrigan?)
The Warrior (Sten)
The Nonhuman (Shale)
The Sage (Flemeth)

>>49174293
>The Sage (Flemeth)

You're thinking of Wynne.

>>49174069
most people do it, so it's okay to not question it and simply copy

sounds like perfect logic to me

>>49172371
I agree about the Witcher, I didn't mean to take away from it at all. As I say, it did a better job of it than any other modern game I can think of.

But as for ME not telling you how things worked out, I do think that's something they're saving for later. If you believe that's something that should be available to you within a single game, I wont dispute that as it's a perfectly reasonable opinion. But as I see it, when I bought a game that was always touted as the first in a trilogy, I expected things to pan out over the course of the entire three games. If we were led to believe they would be isolated experiences, I would probably share the same opinion, but I don't feel that Bioware ever gave us that impression, so I'm going to hold off judgement until later.

>>49174399
Totally forgot about her.
Dumb bitch.

>>49173797

That's only one thing.

Plus, it's not a big choice.

Choosing to kill the Rachni Queen, for example, is a pretty big choice.

>>49169019

>>49174069
I'd say that BioWare tries very hard to 'fit' into these roles, playing it very 'safe'. For example, compare Morte and Alistar as 'bros'. Alistar is an obvious 'bro' but Morte just feels more. . . Human. As human as a talking skull can get.

>Freedom, to tackle a situation with your mind being the limit

This is too rare to note, especially in Jap games.

Bioware are really the only western RPG company that have remained active anyway.

This is not a serious thread because one developer is not capable of ruining a genre of games.

sage

>>49174601
That's a very understandable opinion. Just from reading your opinion about it, I'm starting to get high hopes that BioWare might actually pull this 'trilogy' off. But Mass Effect 2 was a horrible example if that's what's to come. The story went down the shitter and the choices had cameo-impacts. But, as you said, Mass Effect 3 might be the game that makes the previous games make sense.

Why not just play traditional P&P games?
We even have a board for it
>>>/tg/

Well with the first two mass effects, there cant be much branching out in consequences, because they'd have to make far more content for every possibility in the first two.

Since the third is the end of shepard's story, they can really go overboard with choice consequences, and i hope they do.

>>49174900
I would include Bethesda but. . . Those games are just bad. Incredibly bad. Noone is able to completely ruin a genre but these titles are marketed quite well and for the younger generation this will be the 'standard'. If the 'standard' are the most popular games, then in my opinion, it's looking bleak.

>>49173937
Ever thought of that books and films have these characters too? Did it occur to you that you can easily find ANY game with characters wh
o qualifies for that shitty post? Let me demonstrate:
The Bro (Luigi)
The Hot Chick (Peach)
The Warrior (Mario)
The Nonhuman (Yoshi)
The Sage (Toad)

I'm sure people can find much better suggestions, but you get my point.

>>49174973
I already play P&P but the video game medium is different and I quite enjoy the interactivity that there is potential for. Not to mention that /tg/ seems to be WARHAMMER, DND and MTG exclusively.

>>49174924
That's my hope, certainly. It was really the lack of updates on your decisions that makes me believe they're saving it for ME3, naive though that may be. I guess I just can't imagine they'd give us so little feedback if they weren't saving it for later. Time will tell.

>RPGs have fundementally been about two(three) things (tabletop),
>Freedom, to tackle a situation with your mind being the limit
Fucking stupid. Stopped reading there.

Typical troll tactic. Start with false straw man and attack game of choice for not living up to it.

>>49175209
I can't take people seriously when they say Bioware/Bethesda games are "terrible". The statement alone disqualifies you from any serious discussion. However, this is 4chan - so being overly arrogantly decisive and ignorant is expected of you.

>>49172056
lrn2patch

>>49175418
Don't forget /v/ shit.

>>49175418
/tg/ will talk about anything

>>49173320
not many of them, but for bioware, hell yes, they fill my jrpg quota for the year

>serious thread
>/v/

terrible thread, this reminds me why "serious" discussion on /v/ are a joke. this is the reason why nobody takes this board seriously.

>>49173391
As I said, Mass Effect lacks the game mechanic to solve your situations differently, and no, I don't mean either Paragon or Renegade choices. Not to mention that the system is very limited, but I'm talking about physical interaction. There is none. It's Dialogue and Combat. If I want information from a person I should be able to tackle this in all kind of different ways. Do I try to convince him? Do I torture him? Do I bribe him? Do I kill him and eat his brain for information? How reliable will the information I get be? Will I get the full picture? Maybe I will even crash his apartment in search for clues. There are so many ways to handle this situation, verbally or physically. In Mass Effect we only have limited verbal choices. Not to mention the watchdog called Paragon and Renegade watching over us.

bioware is possibly the best wRPG developer around.

Both ME2 and Dragon age are quite good, yes there are flaws, obviously; but they are both amongst the best rpgs in recent times.

>>49176324
sounds like you're confusing sandbox rpgs with all rpgs

>>49175769
I've tried making several threads about roleplaying that wasn't DND and I've never gotten a lot of responses when I ask for advice.

>>49175674
I haven't said that BioWare's games are bad. I like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age but as RPGs they're sub-par. Bethesda's Fallout 3 on the other hand I would actually put in the 'bad' category. Oblivion had some good parts, but in the end forgettable. My personal favourites were the Thieves' guild and the Dark Brotherhoood, everything else just came up as uninteresting. And what's with Bethesda making the third person perspective so god-awful?