>>136585715
this is exactly the opposite of what we see now-- we don't get developers who are pushing the boundaries of gameplay, we get developers who are rehashing the same mechanics with a different storyline, a different flavor, so the storygame loving masses will shit their collective pants every time a new one is being released.

if you think a real game designer sits down and comes up with a story first and then tries to make a game to fit that story plot, you are extremely mistaken. if you think this and also consider yourself a gamer, you really only have 3 options:

1. ignore me and keep being misinformed (opinions can be wrong when based on things that aren't true)

2. show me something factual to the contrary of "games are supposed to be developed mechanically first, with storyline being an afterthought"

3. start actually being a gamer and getting into your hobby. start reading about game design, about what games are, where they came from, and why they are played. stop being a little bitch on the sidelines who is ruining it for the actual gamers among you, since developers seem to be pandering to your uninformed ass.

What if the story and the gameplay go hand in hand?

>>136585774
they don't

get over it

I agree

>>136585898

How does it feel knowing that this thread isn't going to change anyone's opinion no matter how hard you try?

>>136585732
>show me something factual to the contrary of "games are supposed to be developed mechanically first, with storyline being an afterthought"

Why? I can just say I'm right and I'll have as much proof as you.

>>136585993
but you're not right, considering a game is an abstract set of rules

i'm going from what a game actually is, not what you faggots want games to be

Agreed. Valve have got this idea down pretty well.

>if you need motivation for a character in order to play through a game, maybe you should rethink your hobby. there are much better mediums for engaging and thought-provoking stories.

I agree. I love games, but's lettuce be cereal: they're mindless fun. There hasn't been a single game in the history of the medium that can match up against classics like Citizen Kane.

>stories in games just serve to impede and obfuscate the creative process of actually making a game.

Again, agreed. When you try to add depth and thought-provoking story to what is at its heart a toy for grown-ups, you won't get good results.

I think you are mixing up stories with cinematic experience. Other than that, your argument is only true for some genres. What would an RPG do without at least some setting establishment? What would System Shock 2 be without SHODAN? Or Baldurs Gate 2 without Jon Irenicus?

For platformers I agree with you though, and lots of other genres. What I think devs need to stop focusing on is graphics, voice acting, and cinematic experience, since those are probably the biggest money- and time sinks.

Ahh, the idiots of /v/, assemble!

For fuck sake, is this a troll thread, or are you serious about this? Because I'd prefere it be a troll.

Story is the cancer killing video games.

As soon as a video game has a cutscene, it's already lost. Taking interactivity away from the player is by definition bad game design.

>>136586038
Actually, it seems like your definition doesn't correspond with the current reality of video games. Wasn't that your problem in the first place?

>>136586082
they are guilty of one of the biggest storygame fails in history. half-life is fucking atrocious as a game. it was a great tech demo, sure, but as far as the gameplay is considered? doom is magnitudes better in that department.

>>136585715
Well, thats just like your opinion, man.

>>136585967
>>136585898
Nice paint skill btw

While I agree with OP,
>>136585898
>>136585967
are the stupidest things I've ever heard. Games are made with gameplay in mind, and then have a good story that makes it work. Without the story the game doesn't work. Why do you think all those mission select games suck so bad?

>>136586104
>What would an RPG do without at least some setting establishment?
read the fucking op pic dickass

there's nothing wrong with setting some context

there's a difference between having a plot behind the thematics of the game, and completely focusing the entirety of the gameplay around unfolding a story

do you understand?

>>136586170

But the story doesn't get in the way of the gameplay. If we compare Half Life to something like Mass Effect, half of what you do in Mass Effect is talk to people to further the story. In Half Life the story is basically dictated to you as you move through it.

I really fucking hope this is a troll thread.

The only game with a well-implimented story is Super Metroid.

i play video games for the story. they are the best medium for allowing a person to experience a new world at their own pace and feel like they are in control.

deal with it.

>>136586271
why?

you're so fucking dumb it hurts

i guarantee you're one of those high and mighty faggots who think you're all tough shit because you play SO HARDCOR crpgs

you're fucking trash, idiot, you suck at games and you always will

get fucking raped

>>136586260
>read the fucking op pic dickass
Oh yeah, I was wondering what the hell it was doing there, since it didn't seem to have anything to do with the content of his posts. So then, story in video games actually isn't all bad? It's only bad when it's done badly? Wow, look at that controversial opinion.

>>136586170
To be honest i fuckin loved HL2 when I first played it in 2005. Shit was amazing, learn to enjoy thing OP.

>>136586365
you are a fucking moron

i'm not going to handle you with kid gloves anymore. figure shit out yourself

>>136585715

This is very much true. If I wanted to follow a linear story with cinematics and voice acting and whatever, I'd go watch a movie (which is probably written by writers a thousand times more talented than the hacks that ended up writing for video games since they couldn't get a job anywhere else).

Games should be about GAMEPLAY. Gameplay can be fun even in a neutral context (like a gaming board), but when you combine great gameplay with great context you get an excellent and unique experience that other forms of entertainment can't provide.

>>136586338
thats an awful lot of projecting you got going on there

>>136586450
lol

>>136586338
dat aggressivity

>>136586234

Why is doom so great when all the story it has is background?

>>136586535
You mean dat troll.
Why aren't people saging?

missed this post
>>136586262
>But the story doesn't get in the way of the gameplay.
so you either 1. have never played half-life or 2. don't understand what 'getting in the way of the gameplay is'

because if there is anything the HL games are good at, it's interrupting the flow of the game with it's fucking terribly shitty story

couple that with disgusting gunplay and piss-easy mechanics, and you've got one real fucking shitty game

hl1dm gains some points, but that's neither here nor there

Gameplay is more important than narrative, anyone who says otherwise is retarded.
...But storyline and gameplay intertwined pretty good in bioshock.
Can we have a bioshock thread now?

>>136586607
Because ineffectual trolls are kinda funny. Come on.

>>136586365
It's because stories don't ever add to the actual wanting to play a game. It can either fit together perfectly or it can detract. Good gameplay can be ruined by awful story. But bad gameplay can never be saved by an amazing story.

>>136586338

>Calling other people high and mighty

>>136586607
>>136586672
both of you faggots WISH i was trolling

Chrono Trigger had great game play and a great story.

>>136586721
Chrono Trigger was shit

>>136586681
>But bad gameplay can never be saved by an amazing story.
But that's wrong though. Look at RPGs.

>>136586721
it had cookie cutter gameplay and a good story that would have been better if i was watching it in a movie

take your nostalgia off for just a second and compare it to other jrpgs

it's the FUCKING SAME GAME

Completely agree OP. ...like eating cereal for the spoon.

People who disagree are no better than Hamburger Hepler.

>>136586708
No, the alternative is even funnier, actually.

>>136586663
>it's interrupting the flow of the game with it's fucking terribly shitty story
Tell me how a game with zero cinematics did it.
inb4: hurp durp if you don't see it you're a faggot

>>136586771
>But bad gameplay can never be saved by an amazing story.
>But that's wrong though.
>game with bad gameplay still a good game
-99/10

A good game with a bad story is still good.
A bad game with a good story is still bad.

>>136586681
>But bad gameplay can never be saved by an amazing story.
>Ive never played Skyrim

>>136585715

Hey OP I'm going to play MGS right now (and enjoy it), upset about my story telling game ?

>>136586781
it would be a difficult movie to make, thats why it works better as a game.
retard.

>>136586881
oh you mean oblivion lite
oh wait you mean morrowind 3: baby edition

oh wait

>>136586681
>morrowind's gameplay was good!

>>136586881
I'd pick Morrowind before Skyrim, really. But RPGs in general work well to demonstrate this principle.

>>136586916
it would not have been difficult
you are just an uncreative faggot

>>136586771
RPGs don't have bad gameplay. And there are many RPGs that do indeed play horribly that I can't play. Like Spectrobes for DS
>>136586881
I've never played Skyrim

>>136586881

>skyrim
>story

AHAHAHAHAHAH, more like bedtime tale, every questline is so fucking short

>>136586937

morrowind?

oh wait you mean daggerfall: fisher price my first RPG edition

>>136586967
no, they don't
because 9 times out of 10 RPGs are fucking garbage games to begin with. and the only ones that actually are good, are the ones with really good gameplay. it has nothing to do with their stories

>>136586881
Do you legitimately think skyrim had good story?
jesus fuck.

>>136586590
No other game like it/first of its kind. Like a lot of older games it wouldn't hold against modern games beyond nostalgia reasons.

>>136586881
>that whole post

>>136585792
See Ace Attorney series, and Ghost trick.

I enjoy well told stories in books, comic books, film and video games. I expect an engaging story in all fiction based artistic mediums. Please continue to be upset about this.

>>136586978
If all RPGs had going for them was their gameplay, I doubt they would be popular. What would RPGs even be without story? Killing a bunch of goblins for no reason? By clicking on them repeatedly?

>>136586826
I hate the fact that HL has no cutscenes. It's hard to get immersed when I'm being a faggot jumping around when someone's talking to me. Also those segments have as much gameplay as an actual cutscene.
>Set your controller down and wait til theyre done dumping the story

keep bitching op, meanwhile im gonna enjoy REAL games with good stories. go play ur shitty dull platformer and simulators, no-fun allowed faggot

>>136585715
Agree with OP. Thats why I play MW3 multiplayer, fuck sory, more killstreak amirightbitvches

Good Games:
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Super Metroid
Street Fighter III
Bayonetta

Shit Games:
Planescape: Torment
Morrowind
VtM - Bloodlines
Grim Fandango

This will never stop being true.

>>136586902

>I'm going to play MGS
>play MGS
>play

well thats not right.

pic related its you "playing MGS"

You cannot have single player without a story. So I guess OP just wants multiplayer arena shooters and nothing else.

Ugh, the trolling in this thread is so fucking obvious.

Also JRPGs. You need a good story. Gameplay is not what motivates you in those games.

>>136586975
first of al, it's a 15hr plot at least.
second, there's what... 8 main characters and 20 supporting roles? Then there's the multiple, over-arching storylines that take place.

Good luck trying to fit that into a 3hr clusterfuck of a film.

troll thread and samefagging. Lovely.

>>136587030
To add to that games like Doom are on the same level of movies like The Transporter and Cranked(?). You don't watch it for the story, you watch it for THE TITS AND THE ACTION AND THE KABOOMSPLOSION

This thread is... actually frightening. Are you people seriously THIS FUCKING STUPID AND IMMATURE?

Normally, I would actually join such a thread and explained why OP, and everyone who even remotely agrees with him wrong (even why and how did they came to such opinions), but seeing this... I don't know. There is so much stupidity and hostility here, I'm not sure there even any point.

Geez, to think people like this actually have voting rights...

>>136587164
please show me where i said i don't want any story context at all

i even said in the pic story should be context

where are you pulling these shit ideas from? must be your ass

>>136587195
>Gameplay is not what motivates you in those games.
you don't know shit about games

fuck off now

Stop enjoying video games the way I enjoy videogames.

Only the things that I think about videogames are true.

If you enjoy a part of games that I don't think is important you should do something else.

>>136587221
harry potter
your idea is shit, fuck off

What about point and click adventure games? Those have been around a long time.

>>136587136
As I said before, a game with no story is complete ass. But a game with the story planned before the gameplay is, is even worse. Just look at all the new indie garbage "art" games.
RPGs are good because they have great story. But it's because at least most of them add a new gimmick to the party each time.

>>136587030
>calling it nostalgia

no sir, nostalgia made me play some games i later realized they were shit, but doom, idk, i can still play for hours, and I have finished that game a lot of times

>>136587159
it's sad that people will think this is a troll post when it's 100% accurate

>>136587195

JRPGs are not legitimately good games.

>>136587017
Daggerfall was a buggy randomized empty game. It's a pretty nice looking desert, but that's it.
>>136587159
>>136587359
>clear demarcation between japanese and western games
Cmon guys, at least show some passion while trolling.

>>136586756
>>136586781
What the fuck am I reading

>play a hentai game to fap
>keep playing for the story

I don't get it. Are you just unaware of the fact that the people who write the story aren't involved with the rest of the game?

1000 hours of drag and drop

>>136587117
>Ghost Trick
>Bad gameplay
>Ghost Trick

How about I enjoy my games for whatever reason I like and you just deal with it, op

>>136587257
>you don't know shit about games

Neither do you CoD player.
Seriously did you just not play a Mass Effect game in your life? Just stuck to your bland FPS games with no substance?

You are trolling. I really hope you are because it's pathetic what you're saying.

Wow, what's impressive is that you can totally tell where OP is samefagging due to his poor grammar and overall syntax.

Man, I can't believe actually believe shit like
>IF I WANTED A STORY I'D GO READ A BOOK

If I wanted a "cinematic experience", I'd go to a movie. If I wanted an orchestral soundtrack, I'd go listen to some classical music. Get fucked OP, you uncultured swine.

>>136587425
Made me smile. Good job.

>>136587445
mass effect lost all it's substance, terrible terrible example

>>136587372
I'm going to say RPGs in general because the writing in 90% of JRPGs today are either rehashed or shit.

>>136587514
its better than other acclaimed RPGs like Morrowind

and its definitely more playable too

>>136587445
i am a quake player, first of all

i played the first mass effect for like an hour before i realized how bad it was, haven't touched one since and i never will again

also
>bland FPS games with no substance
you've never dueled in a quake game
you've never played in a ladder match in cs

don't go around talking like you know ANYTHING, because you fucking don't you shitty fucking idiot

>>136587402
You are completely correct. My opinion is now changed. Not even sarcastic one bit.

>>136587514
That was after Dragon Age 2. ME2's DLC Arrival was a sign ME3 was going to suck hard.

>>136587491
i haven't samefagged once
i wish a mod was here to prove this to shut you fucking faggots up

TL;DR - Don't bother, you'll probably fail.

Fuck you OP. You're short sighted and you're on the wrong side of history.

>>136587491
> Wow, what's impressive is that you can totally tell where OP is samefagging due to his poor grammar and overall syntax.
I'm pretty sure I have read that exact sentence in threads like this many times before. Is that ironic, or just coincidental?

>>136587354
Also read
>>136587243

Jumped the gun posting it in the mindset of "ALWAYS STORY OR SUCKS". There are games out there built around action, made for action and just have background throwaway story. There's also those that use story to give context to your actions as a motivation. Others use changing the world as a motivator etc. There's also the grindan grindan grindan that doesn't need story.

TL;DR: games are different in different genres made for different people in different target audiences and OP is genre blind.

>>136587616
>yfw a new Quake game released today would be shit

If you enjoy games for the story you literally are enjoying them wrong. It is like enjoying a CD because you like the album art, you are basing your enjoyment on an objectively irrelevant criteria instead of that which defines quality in the medium. Yes, I am explicitly telling you that your opinion is faulty. You are fucking wrong.

>>136587748
they're just newfag storygamer faggots from reddit

i've posted this thread like 50 times now, over the past year or so

always someone saying i'm samefagging when i'm not

I wish I could find an image of a man blowing his brains out all over another man who than in turn blows his brains out. That is how you make me feel, OP, knowing people like you are out there.

>>136587771
no shit, moron, i realize this
why do you think i'm so serious about this? why do you think i have posted this thread so many times?

>>136587653
Well then your followers are just as uneducated as you. I especially like the overuse of expressions such as "fucking faggots", "fuck off", etc.

You're so edgy man. Fight the system, all that stuff.

Gameplay is music. Story is lyrics. Come at me bro.

>>136587791
>4chan in a nutshell

>>136587616
>shoot people until they're dead
INNOVATIVE GAMEPLAY

Why do you play games that have gameplay that hasn't changed in 20 years?

I think that you shouldn't spend too much time on the story of a game unless the gameplay complements the story in some way. Due to interactivity, games CAN potentially tell stories in ways other mediums can't hope to. If you're just going to make genericgame#490231 and append a chapter of that novel you've been working on to ever level, you're doing it fucking wrong.

>>136587867
actual gamers? wow you're pathetic

>>136587890
it isn't about fighting the system, it's about injecting some semblance of truth into this god damn shithole of a board and seeing all the retarded storyniggers go crazy

>>136587616
Hey... I know you idiot. I once argued with you, the very same topic not more than a week ago. I refuted every single point you had and you eventually stopped posting. Seems like you really did not take the lesson, huh? That's sad.
Sage - because this maybe you are not a troll, but you a completely fucking retard and there is no point in discussing anything with you if you aren't willing to learn from your mistakes.

>>136587925
why do you continue to prove that you have no idea what quake is or how it's played? you are just making yourself look stupid

>>136587834
>>136587940
>actually using "newfag"
>"storygamer faggots"
Kill yourself.

>>136587834
Dude, it's pretty obvious when it's you. You are oblivious to punctuation or capital letters. You double space every other line. You can't go one post without throwing insults. You generally come across as a raving lunatic.

>>136587954
you didn't refute shit, nobody has ever made a single coherent point in any of these threads which is why i continue to post them

get the fuck out

>>136587925
replace shoot with hit and you just described every game ever that isnt a puzzle game

I agree with OP. You're entitled to your own opinions if you disagree, just know that your opinion is quite invalid if you do disagree.

>>136588019
and that proves what? show me where you think i replied to my own post. i haven't done it once. stop wasting my replies

>>136588050
>nobody has ever made a single coherent point in any of these threads which is why i continue to post them
Including you, right? Especially you.

>>136586419
>>136586338
>>136586260

>I'll just throw in a few cusswords and people won't notice I have no actual arguments

Are you seriously so pissed off you can't argue your point AT ALL? Why?

>>136587992
I'm sorry, do you not shoot at people until they're dead in Quake? That's what I did last time I played it for the first time 15 years ago, and that's what you do in every Quake game. They just update the graphics.

>>136588123
no, not including me

maybe one day you'll realize what i'm saying is true and there should actually be a clearly made distinction between a game and this interactive fiction shit that you faggots crave so much

>>136588149
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO BE ARGUING AGAINST SHITBREATH? MAKE A FUCKING POINT THAT ISN'T STUPID OR MISINFORMED

>>136588050
>nobody has ever made a single coherent point in any of these threads
But that's wrong you asshole. You just choose to ignore them because they demolish your oversimplification of what video game stories are.

>>136588068
So why do you keep playing these games where developers are rehashing the same mechanics with a different storyline, a different flavor every time? Doesn't that get boring if all you're interested in is the gameplay?

A game should be enjoyed for every part of it. Both Gameplay AND story. It shouldn't just be only one or the other. There is such a thing as a good story that players can enjoy. In this day and age, story in a game is vital to moving the game along. We aren't living in the 8-bit age anymore and you're welcome to return to that age if you disagree. But there have been good games with good stories in them that have been unforgettable. This argument about "stories adding nothing to a game" is absurd and ignorant. The OP is obviously an underage faggot who hasn't played many games to change that attitude. Or an underage faggot who is doing a shit job at trolling.

>>136588153
You shoot people until they're dead in every fps.
What point are you trying to make here?

>>136587909
This.
This makes the most sense. When you listen to music, music is most important. When you play a game, gameplay is more important.
Story telling and story telling come second but is still very important. Sometimes.

>OP

Hostile, insults everyone who doesn't share his opinion, no good opinions are stated with logic by OP.
Op is a child or a troll

I feel OP got quite a few of his ideas from this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s

>>136588253
That once you've played one FPS you've played them all, since all that changes is the story, and story doesn't matter.

>>136587425
It's not easy making a question mark out of an e

>>136588149

To add some discussion to the thread:

OP's picture has a point, his post rambling does not. The Irenicus example was a good one. What the fuck would BG2 be without a story? Or any RPG game for that matter?

Forced, million-cutscenes, interactive movies are a bad idea - acceptable story in a videogame is not. This is not the point OP is bringing forward with his manic rambling.

>>136585715
You're right but you're also horribly horribly wrong.

A game should be fun. Hell look at Doom and CoD. The story is just a back up to killing shit. ANd that is good and has it's place.
However story and game can and should go hand in hand.
When a story is told through the format of a video game and not just a story that happens to have a game with it then...you get great things.

Video games hold the very real potential to be a superior story medium. But many simply use stories as...backdrop for the game.

Look at Devil May Cry. The game engine was supposed to be the new resident evil game engine. But guess what? They changed it and made something else out of it.
And it had genre defining gameplay. However when people talk about it they don't just talk about the game play, they talk about the characters story and game in general.
Face it.

A good story will get the player to become more invested in the game. Period.
HELL! If story wasn't important then why even skin anything. Why have different environments and charactermodels.
Just have floating shapes that you interact with in certain ways and gain points and a YOU WIN sign.

>op is an asspained simpleton and pleb

What's the matter? Things getting too complicated for your tiny pleb brain?

It really depends on how the story is told. If you tell it like you would in a book or a movie, you are doing it wrong. In GTA IV, you have this whole virtual social network of friends and foes that you can interact with, who are always "there" whether you're in a mission or just fucking around. I thought that was brilliantly done, and it's something that can only be done in a video game. It's impossible recreate something like that in a movie or a book, which are bound to being straight forward narratives from beginning to end. The next step after GTA IV is to be able to create the stories yourself, build your own social networks of friends and foes by the choices you make throughout the games. There's definitely room for story in video games when you take advantage of the possibilities of the medium and don't just make an interactive novel.

I like stories.

>>136588414
>A game should be fun

>>136588251
>A game should be enjoyed for every part of it. Both Gameplay AND story.
opinion
>It shouldn't just be only one or the other.
nobody said this
>There is such a thing as a good story that players can enjoy.
opinion
>In this day and age, story in a game is vital to moving the game along.
every competitive game ever disagrees
>We aren't living in the 8-bit age anymore and you're welcome to return to that age if you disagree.
nobody is asking for a return to the "8-bit age" what the fuck does that even mean you moron? i'll assume you meant ARCADE-LIKE and say, yes, games should definitely be more arcade-like. arcade games are almost completely focused on the gameplay because nobody goes to an arcade to sit and have a tv screen tell them a story. do you get the fucking point?
>But there have been good games with good stories in them that have been unforgettable.
opinion
>This argument about "stories adding nothing to a game" is absurd and ignorant.
refute it. tell me how a story as content is better than a story as context
>The OP is obviously an underage faggot who hasn't played many games to change that attitude.
i guarantee the breadth and depth of your video game experience is so miniscule and incomparable to mine that it's not even funny. you are a joke, son. get the fuck out of my house
>Or an underage faggot who is doing a shit job at trolling.
22. go get HIV you nigger

>>136588414
Devil May Cry is good for it's gameplay. I don't know how you can say the story is what defines it. Just because a game has good story doesn't mean it was made with story in mind.
All OP's trying to say is that gameplay comes first, and story second. Not completely excluding a meaningful and good story. Hopefully.

>>136588219

>But story is needed for a good game
>OMG U RETARD SEE OPS PIC
>But his pic has nothing to do with his post, neither does it express a debatable opinion
>HOLY SHIT YOU ARE AN IDIOT FUCK DICKS
>What do you want?
>GET OUT OF HERE U IGNORANT CHILD DO I NEED TO SPEL IT OUT FUCK U R RETARDED MY SIZE IS PROPORTIONAL TO MY ANGER

>>136588251

Nope. They are entirely irrelevant.

Street Fighter III is a masterpiece and all it has are 10 second cutscenes at the end of story mode. That is because story means nothing and adds nothing. There are great games with bad or nonexistent stories, but no great games with bad gameplay but good stories. It's not a balancing act, story is a factor completely outside of the criteria for what defines quality in video games.

>127 posts and 12 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

Proof: SWTOR.
WoW clone with a different story and despite having one of the largest fanbases ever, it went down the shitter in first 3 months.
Nothing to argue about.

The real problem with stories in games is when they're completely disconnected from the game itself.

Good: Half Life 3
Bad: Final Fantasy XIII

>>136588334
never watched purepwnage growing up, i've had these ideas for years. one day, not too long ago, someone showed me that video and i was as happy as i'd ever been, because even if purepwnage was supposed to be satire, there is so much truth in that video that it's almost stunning to watch

If we only look at gameplay, every conceivable type of game ever was already made in the last ten to twenty years. The industry might as well pack their bags. We're done. We can just play Pac-Man and such for the rest of our lives.

>>136588414
>a game should be fun

>>136588595
Oh God you're an idiot.

>>136588595
>22. go get HIV you nigger
That actually makes it worse. If you were 12 you'd at least have an excuse for acting the way you do. Now you just come across as retarded.

>>136588337
except that the fact that most FPSs at least until recently had very different types of gameplay going for them

Just because they share one very basic trait doesnt make them similar at all. Next you'll be saying that every game made is exactly the same because all you do is press buttons to win

>>136588847
>>136588821
typical

A good game with a bad story is bad if the story is important, e.g. RPGS.

A bad game with a good story is a bad game with a good story, i.e. there's still a good story but there's no reason for it to be applied on the vidya medium.

I think most people can agree to this. But there wouldn't be much of a discussion if the OP expressed himself like a gentleman, would there?

>>136588641
Story can ruin games. And they can't make a game. But having no story at all ruins alot of games. Not like that's even possible really.

>>136588908
>except that the fact that most FPSs at least until recently had very different types of gameplay going for them
No they didn't. You had different types of guns with which you shot different types of enemies, and if they died and you didn't, you won.
The guns and enemies may have had different names, but that's just story. They had the same function.

>>136588637
I know it wasn't made for the story.
I'm saying what made it stick in peoples heads was not just the gameplay but the story itself.
And some of the best games started with a story instead of a engine. Nowadays that's almost the norm.
I'm not saying it's right but I am saying it's prevalent.
Abd the OP is directly stating that story is not only not important for the game but it is a detriment to gaming in general.
I guess he thinks games should be abstract nonsense.
Maybe he should go back to playing Rez, oh wait. Rez has a story.

>>136588641
Then why have different sprites and characters and boards?
In your opinion there is no point to them and it's a bad thing.

>>136589003
now read the second part of my post

From what I've gathered, in my personal opinion, story's MOTIVATION is a great tool for a game. The more the player shares with the main character's motivation, the best.

OP is a typical narrowminded nerd who cannot fathom that the medium is very much capable of telling stories in its own way.
Although it hasn't been done in a truly solid way, since it still barrows aspects from other medium, most notably, film, that doesn't mean it hasn't the capacity, and there are definitely signs/ hints that it could be achieved one day, that a game will combine the two elements 'flawlessly', setting up a new standard to follow and/or to expand upon.

>>136588595

>every competitive game ever disagrees
You just proved you only ever play FPS and Fighting games.

>nobody is asking for a return to the "8-bit age" what the fuck does that even mean you moron? i'll assume you meant ARCADE-LIKE and say, yes, games should definitely be more arcade-like. arcade games are almost completely focused on the gameplay because nobody goes to an arcade to sit and have a tv screen tell them a story. do you get the fucking point?
Games evolve and multiply into different genres. Grow up.

>refute it. tell me how a story as content is better than a story as context
Go play Fallout sometime.

>22. go get HIV you nigger
Wow. That's actually pretty funny.


Gameplay and Story should not be 1st or 2nd to each other but equal to get the most enjoyment out of a game. That is unless the gameplay or story is shit.

>>136588951

Story is never important. RPGs are an intrinsically flawed genre.

>>136588984

this.

Is it even debatable? Like, is this anything but a fact? Why is there a thread still running?

>>136589048
i'm saying the focus that developers put on story is bad because it clearly detracts from what it means to make a game

i never said games should have no story, i just said the story should not be the content

learn to read fag

>>136589116

>Opinions

>>136589116
>Story is never important. RPGs are an intrinsically flawed genre.

your cowaddody is showing.

>implying we can't have both

saged and reported for being an ignorant close minded baby.

Different games do different things. What's the problem?

>>136589224
because there are no games now, nor on the horizon, that are doing anything that i want

thus, mad

>>136589190

The Call of Duty games are better than any RPG you can mention. This is pretty much irrefutable. They also shit on any RPG-shooter hybrid out there, like Deus Ex or Bloodlines or System Shock.

The main fault of this argument is not realizing certain genres need story while others do not.

In the case of fighting games, shooters, beat-em-ups and puzzle games a fleshed out story isn't needed as it is the gameplay that serves as the main draw. Adding stories to these kind of games is definitely derivative to the game's feel as evidenced by the clusterfuck stories in some fighting games, especially King of Fighters.

In terms of adventure games, RPGs, and mystery/exploration games, a story is much more essential as the player is directly dropped into a set character with a name and backstory playing as them rather than simply with them.

>>136588984
Gameplay can ruin games. And they can't make a game. But having no gameplay at all ruins alot of games. Not like that's even possible really.

See what I did there?
Let me guess, text-based adventure games are dogshit because the gameplay is almost nothing?

>>136588984
>But having no story at all ruins alot of games.

This has never happened at any point in history.

OK, aside from OP being ABSOLUTE FUCKING RETARD, is there anyone actually willing to discuss this problem? As in not throwing insults and claiming that every game that does not fall into your personal image of what games should be automatically "SHIT"?

There are several reasons why I believe the role of narrative and story actually plays a VERY important role and frankly, I believe the whole industry is not at ALL focusing enough on it. It's obviously partially due to personal tastes - I any sort of competetive games simply bore me to death and feel like a waste of time, so I always focused more on narrative games from the beggining - but I understand different personal tastes.

There is however more to the subject. We have all been - rightefully - comparing games to other media, such as literature, or cinema. The comparison is valid, however, it's mostly done wrong.
I'm convinced that EVERY form of media is inherently narrative in it's core. It's why it's "medium", a carrier, something mediating some information. That goes for cinema, literature, even music, and I believe even games.

A can continue the argumentation, but is there anyone actually interested in discussing this as a human being?

>>136589318
If a genre needs a story to be good, it's a bad genre.

There are games that stories add nothing to. It's called simulation games. And rarely do these games have an ending to them.

>>136589116
But that's circular reasoning, isn't it? Story has no place in video games. Video games where story does have a place don't count, because they are bad video games, because story doesn't have a place in video games.

>>136589149
No you retard that is exactly what you are stating.

Story and differing characters and the like are ways that people dress up and present the exact same gameplay styles from the same genres over and over again.
Think I'm full of it you fucking moron?
What seperates any 4 games from the same genre?
By the way, characters, setting, music, and movement are all part of the "story" of the game as well.
I'm waiting.

/v/ confirms that fun games are not fun and games focused on story are not actually games

>>136589293

Troll confirmed.

>>136589048
There probably are alot of good games that came out of a story idea before gameplay. But whenever I think of that, I imagine all those indie "artsy" games focusing on story telling and trying to excuse the rancid gameplay. Making a story first often times limits what you can / want to do in your game.

>>136589054
Gameplay is not a very basic trait.
When the gameplay of two games is the exact same, but the story is different, it's basically the same game. This means that virtually all FPS are the exact same game. They play the same. The only difference is sometimes you shoot terrorists, sometimes aliens, sometimes Nazis.

If you are a true gamer, and truly value gameplay, then you stopped playing games fifteen years ago, because since then all we've gotten is rehashes.

>>136589112
>You just proved you only ever play FPS and Fighting games.
no. that's not what just happened at all. i suggest youtubing "reading comprehension"

>Games evolve and multiply into different genres. Grow up.
games devolved into story-focused garbage because of shitties like you who don't understand gaming

>Go play Fallout sometime.
fallout is one of the worst "games" i've ever played. it might have been omg "mindblowing i can do so much!!!!!!!111" back in the 90s but today it's aged so badly that it's near unplayable. how anyone could have, even in those days, sit through so much meaningless fucking dialog is beyond me. i don't know what you faggots are, but you sure as shit are not gamers.

>Gameplay and Story should not be 1st or 2nd to each other but equal to get the most enjoyment out of a game. That is unless the gameplay or story is shit.
holy shit dude you are delusional as fuck. tell me, have you ever made a game? ever tried to make a game? if you did, how did you start?

>>136589432

also /v/ confirms that story doesn't actually enhance a games quality

Call of Duty is ACTUALLY a better game than Deus Ex because the gameplay is much better whereas Deus Ex's gameplay is piss bad

Tribes: Ascend have some background, but it isn't really anything game is focused on. Gameplay is what matters there.

>>136589346
Sorry, OP set the tone for this thread. I don't think many people would be interested in serious debate with a whooping retard in the background trying to shout over everyone.

>>136589597
exactly, and it's a shame that the gameplay isn't very good

i was hoping it would be

>>136589489
ok now you're just trying too hard.
that last sentence gave it away. next time remember less is more

STOP

LIKING

WHAT

I

DON'T

FUCKING

LIKE

OKAY??? EVERY VIDEO GAME HAS TO BE MADE IN THE WAY I WOULD PREFER. FUCK OTHER PEOPLE, FUCK ENJOYING DIFFERENT THINGS, GAMES SHOULD ONLY BE ONE THING AND THAT IS THE THING THAT __I__ LIKE MOST!!!!!!

HOW DARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE ENJOY DIFFERENT THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>136589258
Well keep playing your mario or any similar game without story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj_HstA1ob8

relevant. OP is 100% correct.

Videogames should give the players direct control over their characters, which restricts the players perspective of the symbolic trauma of events.

If you're playing a game and a zombie starts breaking through your window, you're not going to be primarily thinking about your family/dog/children/possessions. you're going to get the fuck out of there.

>>136589330
But gameplay does make a game doesn't it? And I imagine having no gameplay ruins ALL games
So I don't see what you did at all.
Also yes, text based games are dogshit because the gameplay is almost nothing.

>>136589335
I'm thinking of a tank game with no story and pretty good gameplay. But it got boring after a couple hours playing and I couldn't beat it because no reason to play.

Also every game with a Quest Board style side quests instead of NPC based.

>>136589423
>No you retard that is exactly what you are stating.
no, it's not

having well-defined and artful thematic elements are appreciated, no doubt, but centering the focus of the game on unfolding a story plot is a bad idea <-- this is the gist of what i'm saying and i'm citing basically EVERY FUCKING GAME EVER FOR THE PAST 10 YEARS as my evidence

>>136589651
Enjoy your storytime! I'll be playing actual games.

>>136589658
My favourite magazine is MAD.

>>136589693
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj_HstA1ob8
THIS GUY

i love this jaffe so much

seriously

i would fuckin put his balls in my mouth

>>136589368
>If a genre needs a story to be good, it's a bad genre.

Text Adventure games.

ITT:

FUN GAMES ARE NOT ACTUALLY FUN
GAMES WITH ONLY STORY ARE NOT ACTUALLY GAMES
MODERN WARFARE 3 > DEUS EX (NOT EVEN A GAME NEMORE LOL)

What about games like Dwarf Fortress where half the game is creating a history for your civilization?

>>136589495
>fallout is one of the worst "games" i've ever played. it might have been omg "mindblowing i can do so much!!!!!!!111" back in the 90s but today it's aged so badly that it's near unplayable. how anyone could have, even in those days, sit through so much meaningless fucking dialog is beyond me. i don't know what you faggots are, but you sure as shit are not gamers.

Oh god what the hell. What the fuck am I reading, oh wow. Do people actually think this? Jesus Christ, this is just "if i wanted a story i'd go read a book" spread out over 3 sentences.

>>136589781
>FUN GAMES ARE NOT ACTUALLY FUN
>fun
k

>GAMES WITH ONLY STORY ARE NOT ACTUALLY GAMES
i didn't say this

>MODERN WARFARE 3 > DEUS EX
that's simply not true

>(NOT EVEN A GAME NEMORE LOL)
get trolled more faggot

>>136589521

>Call of Duty
>Better than Deus Ex

>Deus Ex
>Piss poor gameplay

I agree 100%

>>136589729
You're not very good at getting your point across, to say the least. And your evidence isn't the video games, it's your opinion on those video games. So I guess my opinion on video games would be equally valid, then, wouldn't it?

>>136589330
Because aren't text based adventure games just a choose your own story book?

>>136589771
>>136589693
I think you guys don't actually understand what Jaffe was trying to say, but hey, if you think he actually said "stories in games == very very bad", then stay delusional.

>>136586170
>Sorry, no troll
>procedes to post a troll score

>>136589885
i just assume that people understand that i am a god gamer and my opinions on the matter are fact

>>136589495
Omg... You cannot be this stupid. You just can't be.
This is truly a trolling attempt gone far too long now.

>>136589949
>0 score
>lack of score

kill yourself

>>136589346
>>136589621
Have you guys been ignoring my posts? Tho I'm not really arguing against story. Just saying that it needs to be put second. As in; making a game with story in mind leads to a bad game because it limits what you're willing to do with gameplay.

>>136589942

are you fucking stupid? I never said stories in games were bad, of course they're fucking not.

The point is stories should never take precedent over gameplay.

>>136586170

Doom's level designs are fucking retarded and the graphics are shit and so are the guns and physics and everything
Half Life 1 is way better and more interesting

>>136589930
>Zork
>a choose your own story book

No. Try actually playing a text based game one day, son

>>136590008
this is every storyfaggot's first response to my words

start learning negro, your deconversion is waiting

>>136590059
being wrong only hurts you

>>136589621
Yeah, I can see that. Oh well, maybe in some other thread that isn't overtaken by fucking idiots. I kinda hopped we could just filter OP out (since he is a PAINFULLY) obvious troll and actually talk about the topic, which IS actually fairly interesting and I do believe most of people are still getting it wrong, but... I don't really want to jump into this cesspool of shite. I'd need more than one post to formulate my arguments and by that time, I'd be burried in OP saying I AM THE ONLY JUDGE OF WHAT ARE GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE and 50 people dignifiying it with a responce.

Deus Ex is a shit RPG and a shit shooter combined together into a big package of mediocrity.

The story is also nothing worth talking about and you can't really influence anything, just what happens to your brother and the ending which is based purely on a decision 5 minutes before the very end.

>>136590065
>This is every storyfaggot's first response to my words

GEE I WONDER WHY?

B-but I have fun playing games like fallout that are driven by story

Story is often an anchor to keep the player interested in your game.

If AAA games didn't have stories - why would you play more than 5-6 games ever?

I think you need story but It's complicated.

>>136586681
>It's because stories don't ever add to the actual wanting to play a game.

Of course, bro! I totally played Planescape: Torment for its gameplay, and any story was just shit getting in the way!

...No. Fuck you, and fuck OP. This viewpoint is fucking moronic and it needs to be stopped.

I'll explain it slowly for you:

THERE. IS. MORE. THAN. ONE. WAY. OF. DOING. THINGS.

Yes, games which focus on gameplay and use the story as a context for this are great. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY GAME HAS TO BE LIKE THAT. It's perfectly acceptable for you to personally prefer games like that - but trying to insist that EVERY game should be like that, just because YOU don't like the alternative, is pathetically short sighted.

People like stories. People read books, watch movies, and enjoy games with good stories. Deal with it.

this is a direct reply to the OP, and I haven't read any other argument for- or against his point of view other than the original post in this thread:
Yeah it would be all well and good what you're talking about, if the game company actually went ahead and tried to make innovations. But let's face it; you take out the story aspect of a game and you lose 1/3 of your market for consolefags and you lose 1/6 of your market for PCfags. Why? Some people care about story. Would you rather a game which isn't innovative but has a story, or would you rather CoD spitting out another game every 5 months because they no longer have to bother about story? Game companies aren't going to try innovating because it's too hard and the "risk" isn't worth the "reward".

I'm not gonna bother reading the thread becaus eI have to go, but the OP is wrong, video games have xcome a long way and is why some many consider them art now, even if the art can be made through gampley, in one side you got games like serious sam or tetris where there is mindless fun and if you removed the story complretely they would still be great.

And then you have games like heavy rain or uncharted that are so based aroud the story, that removing it would simply make no game, and in fact changing the gameplay wiuld pribably result in the same exp4erience, because that's not the important part of the game, stop acting like every video game should use the same formula every time.

Different video games have different priorities, deal with it.

>>136590143
because they are brainwashed corporate sluts who have been told what to like

this is why games are now shitty, because the people who buy games are not gamers and thus don't understand gaming

the people like me who you don't hear are the ones who have submitted to this system and try to feel some kind of worth out of the time and money they spend on this trash, but i know deep down they feel exactly the same as me

robbed, raped, left in the fucking gutter. the industry left us behind and trained its little cocksucking whores to spit on us when they hear us talking

>>136589808
Dwarf Fortress is good for it's gameplay. Though I don't like it's gameplay, I'm sure it's played for it's uniqueness in a very tycoon like fashion. Because I don't even think there is a story for that game. Or at least a backstory...

>>136590228
>BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT EVERY GAME HAS TO BE LIKE THAT.
yes, it does. problem with that? call it something else, because it's not a game

>1. ignore me and keep being misinformed (opinions can be wrong when based on things that aren't true)

OH THE IRONY

>>136585715
no you're just a retard

>>136590061
My bad. I've only played Thy Dungeonman.

>>136590261
You didn't need 4 lines to say "games were better when i was a kid, whaa whaa whaa I'm a tourneyfag"

>>136590261
>the people like me who you don't hear
If only.

>>136590310
yeah man, like that picasso shit, lol that's not a paining IT DOESNT EVEN FORM A REAL THING, totally not a painting we shoudl find another name for that crap

>>136590310
So you want me to invent and popularize an entirely different word for 'interactive work in which the gameplay serves primarily to support the story and allow the user to interact with the world and its characters'?

Why can't we just use 'gameplay focused game' and 'story focused game' and leave it at that?

>all these storyfag tears

seriously /v/ is filled with fangirls

>the most important part of music is the melody
>harmony has no place in music
>if it has harmony, it isn't music
>don't get me started on drums

Story should be used to complement the gameplay. But since everyone arguing against story in a video game has the mental capacity of an eggplant, sage.

the worst part of these threads are the people who make it out like i'm trying to abolish storygames completely.

i'm not.

i realize the value in a story where you can control the actor or actors.

that's not a game, though. it's interactive fiction. it's something that we don't really have a word for. we currently use game engines to make them though because it's the easiest way for developers to make them.

OP is a fag. If you want games without story content go play games without story content. No reason why SOME games can't have both.

Variety is important to stop the medium from becoming stale thing abiding to a single rule set for creating video games is moronic.

>>136590228
How about the story for Torment just fit perfectly for the game? I didn't say story was bad. I just said it couldn't add. Unless of course, you're saying the gameplay was ass and you only played becaues the story was so immersive you coudln't stop.

>>136590261
>because they are brainwashed corporate sluts who have been told what to like

So now not only did you admit you are stupid and fail at trolling, you also admitted you're anti-social. You can't even understand obvious sarcasm.

>>136590470
because they're not games

notgames

f/games design student from RMIT here

You know what sucks about 4chan these days?
This shit

The topic raised at the start of this thread is something pretty interesting, but everyone appears to just be fighting rather than discussing it.
I'm not blaming YOU, but 4chan is a bad forum for the discussion... Not for the question or point raising.
I don't know. Upvoting seems to be a pretty fucking rad idea. I haven't been on 4chan for months now, so I'm going to guess that it's cool to hate reddit around here but whatever, I enjoy it.

There are some pretty cool articles out there about this sort of thing:

http://www.eludamos.org/index.php/eludamos/article/view/vol4no2-13/192

Also read this:

http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=433

This has been discussed a million time. You're wrong.

If that were the case, games like Baldur's Gate II and Planescape Torment wouldn't be rated incredibly highly on the list of best games ever made. There gameplay fucking sucks, people only play them for the story and the adventure. It's the same with The Witcher and The Witcher 2, more games people on /v/ like to suck off on a regular basis. And Fallout 1,2, and NV.

You're wrong, get over it.

I fucking hate pre-school /v/.

>>136590485
You're seriously siding with this ranting madman? Think about that with a moment. Even if you agree with his viewpoints on some level, do you want to associate yourself with him by openly agreeing with him in this thread? And you're a tripfag, no less. Now you can never have a civilised discussion on the subject again, because your name is forever associated with this idiocy.

People are still arguing about this after Mass Effect?

Face it storydoesn'tmatterbros. You lost.

>>136590512
>>136590485
>every game uses the same formula

nop

Audiosurf = Music>GAmeplay>everything else>Story

Heavy Rain= story>atmosphere>gameplay>music>everything else

>Team fortress 2= Gameplay>sounds>grafics>everything else>story

Personally, I don't really care if people enjoy cinematics or story in their games or not, but really? You can't handle 30 seconds or so of a cut scene to develop more of a connection to the story? I mean, look at inFAMOUS, cutscenes only when you did the STORY quest, and it was never uncomfortably long, I felt like it made some pretty good, quick, clean explanations of what I should do next and some insight on what the main character is feeling.

Some people actually like story in games, because, who fucking wants to read a book? Story is in movies, why isn't that looked down upon saying "IF I WANTED STORY I SHOULDA READ A BOOK, ACTION HANK ONLY EXPLOSIONS MASTER RACE#!!!#@", I feel it's the same thing. Story in games is good, as long as it's kept to a tasteful minimum. Never ONCE have I seen a cutscene and gone "Wow, this is bullshit, I can't even play the game!", just about every game I played I got plenty of actual playing done before a new cutscene which I felt like was well worked up to.

I agree, long, intrusive, constant cutscenes would kind of dissolve me out of the game story wise, but what's wrong with some, like Bioshock? or inFAMOUS? I really just want to play vidya without someone saying that my opinion is wrong just because he is too impatient to sit for 5 seconds while not hitting X to kill 100000 mortals, it's not hard really. Patience is a virtue I guess.

>>136590512

Melody, harmony and instruments are all fundamental parts of music. Story in video games is more comparable to say, the physical appearance of the musician in your analogy. "This musician is attractive, therefore it adds to the music" is what storyfags actually believe.

>>136590593
>I didn't say story was bad. I just said it couldn't add. Unless of course, you're saying the gameplay was ass and you only played becaues the story was so immersive you coudln't stop.

Alright, firstly: if you are genuinely trying to claim that if Planescape: Torment had no story or context at all and was just a load of boxes on a white background, that it would be just as good, you are objectively wrong.

Secondly: why are you so unable to comprehend the idea that the gameplay of a game could be good but the story still be the primary draw? That in a game with competent gameplay but a fantastic story, the story would likely be the main reason that people would play it?

>>136590789
>"This musician is attractive, therefore it adds to the music" is what storyfags actually believe.
No, that's what graphicsfags actually believe.

>>136590538
I can understand shit like visual novels being shit on by people like you, because let's face it, "click next to win" is not really gameplay.

But telling people games like Fallout have "too much dialog" and can't be classified as games is complete bullshit and you're an idiot if you believe that. Go play in some fucking championship if you want to play to make your e-peen grow. You obviously wouldn't recognize fun if it smacked you in the face

>>136590673
Aw man, I loved Balder's Gate. I never realized the gameplay was bad and that I was playing it for story... But now that you say it, and I think about it, you're actually right.. =(

>>136590785
He's wrong, just ignore this thread if you don't agree with it. It's not as if somebody ranting on /v/ is ever going to change the gaming industry.

>>136590789

>"This musician is attractive, therefore it adds to the music"

That would be more akin to "This game developer is attractive, therefore it adds to the game"

Planescape: Torment is an objectively bad game. You can enjoy it and that's fine, but please understand that your enjoyment is based on faulty standards and criteria and that from a critical standpoint irrespective of your opinion it is a low quality title.

>>136590636
so what's the line anyway faggot

is donkey kong country not a videogame? it has cutscense

is half life not a video game?

how about Metal gear solid? I thought it was my favorite video game WELP guess I was wrong

>>136590673
Being wrong is like losing for stubborn children. They refuse to accept it and will keep continuing.

I grow tired of arguing with these idiots. Can we just have a mod remove this thread and samefagging OP banned for a couple of hours to think about what he's done?

>>136590785
it's not about cutscenes you shallow cunt

they are a part of it, but that's not the point. the point is that games today are being made by people who just want to make stories. mechanics seem to be an afterthought, considering all we see are the same mechanics rehashed over and over with different stories.

nobody cares to try and make an actually decent game that you have to learn to play and master anymore, because that isn't profitable, and this thread is filled with the retarded cunts who support that very behavior.

it's fucking disgusting, outraging, and you're dumb if you consider yourself a gamer and can't see this.

>>136590538
>the worst part of these threads are the people who make it out like i'm trying to abolish storygames completely.
People are only going off of what you're saying. It may not be what you actually want to communicate, but, well, you're not very good at communicating your points.

>>136590889

Graphics can actually add something to a video game. Story does not. It never has and it has no potential to do so in the future.

>>136591049
Stop playing such shit games, dude.

If I wanted a story, I'd go listen to the village elder. Books are only for letters and other characters.

>>136591032
>People are only going off of what you're saying.

>STORY SHOULD BE CONTEXT, NOT CONTENT

what about that wasn't clear?

maybe if people weren't trying to twist what i'm saying or just blatantly making shit up there wouldn't be such fucking confusion. just because you disagree with me doesn't mean you have to come to my thread and be a fucking retarded shithead

>>136591049
>MY OPINION IS RIGHT

>EVERYONE ELSE'S OPINION IS WRONG

>I'M NOT GOING TO BACK THIS UP IN ANY WAY APART FROM THROWING AROUND SWEAR WORDS

>>136590789
You do realise that what you are defining as a game - is not a game? It's a braiteaser, or a skill test. Narrative element IS inherent part of a computer games since the very first game is. Games use text, sound and visuals to communicate - that is what makes them different from brainteasers and skill tests. The main difference is the interface - interface of games is build so it can accomodate narrative elements. That is actually the reason why they exist as a self-standing platform, and that is why CoD outsells japanes stick mazes. Sole reason.
So narrative is just as vital to games as harmony is to music.

>>136591049
I would love to know what are some of your or any retard defending OP's favorite games

>>136591049
>Graphics can actually add something to a video game.
Only GAMEplay can add anything to a video GAME. Graphics aren't gameplay, so they can't add anything.

>>136591049
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Is that why people like Final Fantasy 13?

>>136591049
As much as I hate to say it, and I hate pointing it out, I think we may legitimately have an Underageb& here.

Are schools currently on holiday somewhere in the US?

I disagree, the story is completely irrelevant. Both as context and content.

What is relevant is that all games must use Kinect. Controllers and keyboards add nothing to games.

>>136590856
My bad, I withdraw my previous statements. I've been convinced. Mainly by your Planetscape and the Ace Attorney games. As long as gameplay isn't garbage then story can easier make it fantastic. Like the Suikoden series.

>>136591049

>Story cannot add anything to a video game ever

That's it. I'm out. 10/10 would get rustled again. That was so retarded I can't see straight.

>>136590789

No. You're wrong.

>>136591142
WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING RETARD

man, you really just don't get games dude. go learn something, holy shit

Lol it must to be as stupid as you OP. Since when has story not been part of the gameplay?

Fucking newbie. Story does not equal combat mechanics and never has. Planescape torment has fucking horrible combat, but the gameplay is amazing.

If it was about gameplay we would not need to play anything but pacman, pong, tetris and missle command.

Fuck off kid.

>>136591119
Nope, I'm pretty sure you're the cause of all the confusion here. It's very unclear what you're trying to say. And sure, you've said "context, not content," but most of your rants seem to contradict that. So don't act like you're infallible and it's everyone else's fault for not understanding you.

>ITT: thread samefags pretend to be retarded and /v/ falls for it

COME ON GUYs, NO ONE CAN REALLY THINK THERE's NOTHING BUT GAMEPLAY TO THE FORMULA RIGHT? RIGHT?

>>136591348
please point to anything i've said that contradicts it

>>136591049

>Graphics can actually add something to a video game. Story does not.

>Graphics can actually add something
>Graphics
>add

>Story doesn't
>Story
>doesn't

This is how you kill the vidya

>>136590660
What is there to discuss?
Story isn't just that littler blurb in the booklet at teh beginning cutscens and what happens at the end. It's the entire damned game itself.
Even arcade games told a little story. Nonsensicle of course but still as story.
What he's suggesting is abstract gaming.
That's it.
Abstract shapes that you interact with in some way get some points or some reward.
But it still won't work because people will STILL fill in the gaps by creating little narratives.
It's who we are as human beings.

>>136589729
So I'm wrong because I'm right but I didn't say it in that exact way. you're saying it.
Okay sure.
You like mindless gameplay.
Some people like indepth stories.
Both are valid ways of enjoying games.
Claiming superiority because your style of gameplay isn't other styles of gameplay is bullshit.

Care to name a few games that are story independent?

>>136591198
Think about it. Controllers and keyboards only detract from the realism and immersion that Kinect can add to games.

And real life doesn't have a story either. So why should games have those?

>>136591119
>STORY SHOULD BE CONTEXT, NOT CONTENT
Actually, gameplay should be context, story the content. Gameplay is a form, not a substance of the game.
There is absolutely NO rational reason why there should not be games about stories. If we accepted cinema, literature, theatre, even music as narrative media and were rewarded by briliant works and beautiful culture, why the FUCK should we allow the same to develop in gaming? OP aside - for those siding with him:
Why do you actually find this problematic? Where is the problem? How the fuck is this even an issue with you?

>>136591386
First, please point out all posts in this thread which are yours.

>>136590984
>>136590984
>>136590984
>>136590984
>>136590984
OP CANT AWNSER MY QUESTION, EVERYONE GO HOME

>>136591119
>STORY SHOULD BE CONTEXT, NOT CONTENT

But where do you draw the line between context and content?

I agree with you that games could do with more interesting mechanics. But I don't see why that means that games shouldn't have stories other than stuff that exists in the background.

If you just want a game with no story whatsoever, play a board game. Or a sport. Leave the video games to people who aren't morons incapable of getting any enjoyment when they're not blowing something up.

>>136591418
just hope that this isn't an EA employee, tasked to get a feel for this idea off of the internet

>>136591427
>real life doesn't have a story
>not being the main character
Start being at hero, you.

>>136591170

See:

>>136587159

They're better than any of your favourite games because I have great taste while you enjoy shit.

>stories add nothing to a game

Stopped reading there.

If you honestly believe that any single element to a game adds nothing to a game, you must be fucking retarded.

There should be more games where the story is experienced mostly through gameplay, the way Super Metroid and Mega Man X did it.

>>136591504
He's definitely a bored semi-troll right now. Nobody believes that shit.

>>136591386
Your entire two-part OP, disregarding the picture. It just looks like you picked a picture that was remotely related but you actually wanted to say something different. Your entire OP is a rant about how any kind of story is bad and and games should only have gameplay.

Okay, the debate about whether 'vidyagaems are art/not art' is fundamentally absurd.

Videogames are a medium (like painting, movies, novels), where art may emerge. It's not a very good medium however (for the immediacy of events and the direct control of your character) and often it's at the expense of the game's actual gameplay.

Another ruinous aspect of this debate which exposes another glaring hypocrisy of /v/'s logic is that it perpetuates the idea that people who buy games are not empowered consumers but are passive spectators who do not deserve to feel entitled to quality.

Another part is that /v/ and the rest of the industry (including reviewers) don't understand fucking anything about aesthetics; be it frameworks, values or perspectives you guys just have no fucking clue what you're talking about and often fall back on literally preschool definitions of crucial philosophical concepts of subjective/objective opinion/fact etc.

>>136591006
>they are a part of it, but that's not the point. the point is that games today are being made by people who just want to make stories. mechanics seem to be an afterthought, considering all we see are the same mechanics rehashed over and over with different stories.

Well, seeing as how just about EVERY SINGLE MECHANIC has been done already, i.e. CoD, Battlefield, just about all RTS games, it's kind of hard to NOT rehash something. Sure, there are a few gems that revolutionize gaming altogether, like HL2 changed how a very large amount of shooters played and source engine and what not.

Besides that, aside from rehashing and how overly done it is, which is true, all people really CAN do is make a different story to pull people in. Can you blame them either? It's impossible NOT to rehash something. Everything has been done, and you expect the near impossible so quickly?

Good thing you do not decide what is a game OP.

You could always found a company and become rich by making the best non story games on the planet.

Or if you are not creative enough, publish them.

You are full of shit and you know it.

Guys. I'll be honest with you. I'm autistic. I know how they act and quite frankly, >>136591049 and >>136590261 is definitely one. It makes sense I mean one of them if not the same guy are 22 years old and acting like this.

>>136591620
>/v/
>/v/
>/v/
You are part of /v/

>>136591620

>Another part is that /v/ and the rest of the industry (including reviewers) don't understand fucking anything about aesthetics; be it frameworks, values or perspectives you guys just have no fucking clue what you're talking about and often fall back on literally preschool definitions of crucial philosophical concepts of subjective/objective opinion/fact etc.

Finally someone fucking said it.

>>136591418

The advanced lighting techniques which made the stealth elements possible in Splinter Cell and Thief contributed more to the medium of video games than any story ever has.

Graphics > story. This is the opinion of educated, intelligent gamers who actually care about game design. Story is for casual plebians who want to warp a medium they don't even like to match their fucked up standards.

Jesus Christ, it's been a while since /v/ got this up in arms over the opinion of one kid samefagging. This is fucking hilarious.

>>136591703

>>>/reddit/

Of course i'm talking about the majority opinion your fat nasty trash.

And i'm not from /v/, i'm from /lit/ so watch your mouth.

>>136591432
This guy is right.

OP, imagine your favourite game with every single object replaced with a box. Every weapon animation is removed and replaced with the most boring thing possible which still conveys the same information. Every piece of text is removed unless it relates to the progression of the gameplay, in which case it's replaced by the most basic sentence which can still convey the same information.

Now, tell me - does that sound just as fun? The answer is 'no', by the way. If you were going to say yes, you are lying. To me, to the rest of /v/ and possibly to yourself.

>>136591726
Looking forward to Avatar 2 I see?

Thread is dead now, stop posting in it. Also I'm taking credit for being one of the 4 reasonable people here actually discussing discussions.

What makes videogames really unique is that it's essentially an amalgamation of every other medium we have. Elements on their own can be great, but it is true that they are more suited to other genres. Video to film, soundtracks to music, writing to books, art to paintings. However, without these other elements games have their values severely lessened.

A game needs one thing - gameplay. For it to be considered in some shape or form a game it needs gameplay. That we can all agree on. Something else I think we would agree on is that graphics greatly improve a game experience - as does music.

With these elements you have a game. With these elements you can have a fun game, too. Super Mario Bros or Solomon's Key, or what have you. They're fine, with only contextual story and a goal to reach.

However, when a medium which can be developed to incorporate the best of every other medium why not do so? It was considerably more difficult in the NES era to create a realistic and enjoyable world, leaving us with games like the two mentioned above. This isn't a bad thing, not by a long shot. We all know games like this are still being churned out and are a lot of fun today.

I would argue that videogames are the medium of escapism. The one place where you can interact with the environment around you and see it evolve - cause it to evolve, even. That is the appeal of videogames. I don't think you would care to argue otherwise. Realistically, what else does gaming offer that no other medium can?

>>136591432 Why do you actually find this problematic? Where is the problem? How the fuck is this even an issue with you?

severe mental problems. or holidays from school.

>>136591795
>>>/reddit/
What's /reddit/?
>And i'm not from /v/, i'm from /lit/ so watch your mouth.
Then why are you here talking about video games? We don't come into your board to talk about books, do we?

>>136591445
k

>>136585715
>>136585732
>>136585792
>>136585967
>>136586038
>>136586170
>>136586260
>>136586338
>>136586419
>>136586482
>>136586663
>>136586708
>>136586781
>>136586830
>>136586937
>>136586975
>>136587019
>>136587257
>>136587314
>>136587359
>>136587616
>>136587834
>>136587885

part 1

>>136591859
It's this combination of every element which leaves us with immerive worlds, and in such rich worlds what are you to do but go on a quest? Certainly it's true that gameplay, graphics and music alone without story can make a beautiful enjoyable world which is a lot of fun; Flower comes to mind. Buy why should we not expant upon this? Give every being in this world reason and hope. Give them personality, and give your character a goal. This is what story is - character and a goal.

Solomon's Key for just a moment again - you solve puzzles, you progress to the end of the game. You have a goal, and progressively get closer. Visuals and audio create a distinct world for you to explore. However, you lack character development. You are just the good guy. This is story as context.

Games are no longer a linear series of puzzles. They have much needed variety in a living 3D world so why is the addition of a story not only the next logical step but the only logical step forward? Puzzles are fun, for a while. Puzzles eventually become tiring, to repeat the same solution or process of elimination over and over again becomes boring. But to play a game with an overall goal, to complete sections of your quest bit by bit and to understand your goal is where games thrive.

Op must love Bethesda games.

>>136591947
part 2

>>136587940
>>136587992
>>136588050
>>136588110
>>136588168
>>136588219
>>136588595
>>136588760
>>136588926
>>136589149
>>136589258
>>136589495
>>136589625
>>136589729
>>136589771
>>136589848
>>136589961
>>136590019
>>136590065
>>136590125
>>136590261
>>136590310
>>136590538
>>136590636
>>136591006
>>136591119
>>136591306
>>136591386

>>136585715
>>136585732
What qualifies you to tell me what is right and what is wrong?

>>136591921
>And i'm not from /v/, i'm from /lit/ so watch your mouth.
>Then why are you here talking about video games? We don't come into your board to talk about books, do we?
Funniest shit. Thanks, bro. Made my day.

>>136591951

Should Portal have been simply a Puzzle game, or Bastion simply a beat-em-up they would have been OK. But what really sets them apart is their dedication and progression to an ending. Making their character more likeable and vulnerable, it makes them more human than "3 lives remaining" ever could. It gives an attatchment to the game, and a reason to continue through each fight. In Bastion you aren't just squishing bugs and fighting monsters, but you are doing it for a reward, and to save the characters around you, the ones that make the world rich. Ones that could have been in movies or books, sure. But in movies and books they're just a character. In Bastion you help them personally, they're friends. It's the reason to carry on, and this is true for a lot of games, be it Half Life 2 or Planescape: Torment. Story is the glue that holds the blocks together when building the tower.

>>136591306
>man, you really just don't get games dude. go learn something, holy shit
Dude... That responce was so desperate it actually confirmed to me I was right in that post and you could not even find a place to start refuting it.
Also... let me ask you something. Why, exactly, do you do this? I mean shitposting and trolling. Begging for attention. What exactly is your point - your gain here? Is it sheer misantropy - feeling that you are making someone else unpleasant is satisfying to you?
Or is it about power? Do you feel like you are manipulating those "weakminded", into what you want?
Or is it really just about attention? Feeling that you aren't as insignificant, that those people listent to you - even if it's negative attention?

And ultimately, have you ever, even for a second, considered your dignity? You know - as a human being? Does it not bother you - the realisation that YOU actually did say all that shit? Or does the "I was trolling" label really wear off all your responciblity for things you say?

>>136591820
i am a quake player, you fucking idiot. what about that do you not understand?

you've probably never even played competitive multiplayer quake so why are you even posting?

>>136591620
This nigga right here. This nigga, guys.

>>136592040
i could start from the first thing you said, i'm not about to sit here and give you a lesson on game design though
your post made it extremely clear that you have absolutely no understanding of anything to do with gaming, so tell me why i should bother?

>>136591980
>>136591947
Look at this. Look at what you've been doing with the past two hours of your life.
Look at what you've become.

>>136592195
i don't even care, i'm just posting now to make myself tired so i can get up and go work my shit job just like every other day

>>136585715
Mother 3 had no voice-acting.

story and plot in vidya its content and most of the time adds to the game

the problem with actual vidyas is the story is constantly interrupting gameplay with cutscenes all over the place

>>136592182
>>136592040
I see this becoming an argument about whether it is worth the effort to argue. You're just wasting each other's time in the meantime. And everyone elses for that matter

>>136585715
>I can't understand the concept of "opinions" and that other people enjoy different things
>everything I enjoy is GOOD, everything anyone else enjoys and I do not is BAD
All in all you sound like a huge moron with ADHD.

And I bet you actually thought you sounded intelligent and sophisticated with you posts, didn't you?

>>136591947
>>136591980
Now that's a fucking dedicated troll

>>136592303
it's over your head bro, let it alone

come back when you figure out what a game is

>>136586082

>>136592364
>troll
why?

because you disagree?

fuck off cunt

someone said: a game with good story will be remembered for ten years

a game with good gameplay will be played for ten years

>>136592290
Games that separate and cordon off gameplay from story like that are shitty games. A real game delivers the two inextricably; otherwise, you could just play the actual game parts and read a book during cutscenes.

maybe different people like different things

>>136592364
I actually think he's retarded and really believes what he says.

>>136591726
Graphics mean nothing without context and context is told through story. And telling a story isn't just about something read or heard it's about seeing and experiencing. THE GAME ITSELF IS A STORY!
A game can have no written story once so ever no narrator at all and still tell a fucking real story.
Don't you get that?

>>136592364
It's not trollling if he genuinely believes everything he says. Then he's just retarded.

>>136592409

So defensive.

>>136592237
you'reasadstrangelittleman.jpg
and you have my pity

>>136592364
He's just a dedicated moron.

>>136592423
Advantage: Games with good story.

>stories add nothing to a game.

lol no

>>136592423

This game has a good story AND good gameplay, though.

>>136592409
Aaaahhhhh, you're a British kid! Secondary school holidays up north started 3 weeks ago and ended last week. Where are you from? Because you're most definitely a child.

Perhaps a spot of Cowadoody will help ease your butthurt? I hear you put it in a special bowl, add hot water, and the steam then rises up and help ease the pain.

MGS3 has better gameplay than most other games in existence and is all about unfolding dat plot.
Your move OP

>>136592487
you're using narrative in a different context, you fucking retard

if you play a game and let's say you did something really awesome, you dictating that action to someone else is you expressing a narrative created by the player actually performing the act of playing the game

that's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from exploring your way through a preset developer-created narrative in some faggot storygame

>>136592652

you're trying to sound smart mate but you just sound like a fucking creep.

>>136592661
MGS4 was here, ura faget

>>136592372
I still think it's because you fail to communicate your point. You may think you've expressed yourself clearly, but you actually just come across as a raving lunatic most of the time, and when your rants inevitably confuse people, you just call them idiots for not understanding what you think you're saying.

If you were trying to troll, it's a great tactic, but if you actually wanted to make a point you're not going about it the right way.

Oh look, /v/ devolving into a clusterfuck because it can't possibly wrap it's minds around the clearly non-euclidean idea that not every video game is tangibly comparable to each other, and that maybe different games have different purposes.

>>136592698
>that's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from exploring your way through a preset developer-created narrative

Everything you can do in a game has been crafted by the developer, dumbass.

>>136592661
I've always felt that the fact that MGS3 does both things so damn well is what makes it so amazing. Not just great, but...beyond great. Like SUPER GREAT

It doesn't sacrifice either aspect for the other.

>>136592709
Actually, no. The exact process I described is used to help cure haemorrhoids. Don't see how that makes me creepy. Just trying to help ease the butthurt. I'm on your side!

>>136592791
this is what i'm talking about

you people simply cannot even comprehend very clear posts because you have NO UNDERSTANDING of what a game is or how they are made

get the fuck out of this thread and don't come back

>>136592791
The developer set it up so that you can shoot people, but he may not have explicitly made it so that you would shoot someone with your last bullet from 500 yards away just as he was about to round a corner. That's not the developer's narrative, that emerged as you played it.

>>136592814
>>136592661
Alright you got me. MGS3 is SUPER GREAT with no flaws. While MGS4 has one major flaw that ruined the whole game's replay value. And we all know what that is.

>>136592837
Are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing?

If the latter, then no, you clearly have no understanding of how games are made. I've made multiple games myself, and I can guarantee you that there is very little, if anything, you can do in a game that has not been anticipated by the developers. Anything that hasn't is nine times out of ten a bug.

>>136592892
You act as if there's some sort of noble difference between shooting someone from 500 yards away and shooting them from 300.

>>136592698
Actually, he is using it entirely correcty. Ludology is an aproach of narratology, specially focusing on games and playing, not a different field of studies. Plus ludology really isn't in place when speaking about computer games, as those heavily relly on traditional forms of narrative.
Ludology is more suited to analying child plays or sports.

He is right that every game (computer game) is narrative by definition. It must be - it's a medium, a form of narrative.

>>136592639
>mario
>story

>>136592982
The awesome 45 minute end cutscene that had me bawwing like a little bitch? No THAT'S art!

The only people who complained about that cutscene are the ones who hadn't waited ten years for it. You know; the kiddiefags.

>>136593062
hey, The Thousand Year Door had some neat narrative elements.

Each little area had it's own story. It was really fun

>>136592182
Again with the whole "you are stupid and I'm not gonna explain why". You already said that. Frankly, I'm more interested in the answers to the second half of my post, but whatever.
Go ahead. Amuse me. Explain it to me. Start from the beggining.

>>136593062

how innocent you are mate.

ever nintendo game has a raging furnace of 'canon' debate surrounding it.

Last one I remember seeing concerned the identity of Mario's parents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMezwtB1oCU

>>136592698
It is the exact same thing you fucking idiot.
What? You think it's all about cinematics reading blurbs and listening to VA?

The game itself is a story to experience as you play it. That some games hand hold you through the above mentioned means doesn't change that.

Right now were simply discussing the level/the amount of story that we want in a game. How much do we want to experience of the prewritten narrative before/as/while we interact with the world itself.

>>136593117
I was thinking more the long ass installs after each chapter. But to each his own, I guess

>>136593213
I have no fucking idea how buddy holly managed to get into that post

>>136593019
>You act as if there's some sort of noble difference between shooting someone from 500 yards away and shooting them from 300.
Well, what I mean is, there's a distinction between the specific story that the player forms in his head while playing the game, and the story that the developer explicitly put into the game. Sure, the developer provided all the tools for things to happen that way, but it's not something he explicitly wanted to get across. To the developer, there might not be a difference between shooting someone from 300 or 500 yards, but to the player, it could be the greatest kill he ever made.

So, OP, you're a huge faggot

but
do you like Dark souls?

>>136593281
It was made worse with only being able to install 1 chapter at a time. Quite a pain when there's 2 of us playing through the game at different paces.

>>136593281
God I hated those thing...

In fairness, it was the first game to fully utilise the 50GB disc, so I guess some things were going to go wrong. Some developers STILL can't develop properly for the PS3. The only one's I've seen doing it right are Naughty Dog, and that was primarily on UC2 only.

>>136593213
Just because people go looking for meaning doesn't mean it was intended to be there.

>>136585792
>they dont

>looks at Silent Hill 2

Fuck off

Doesn't every game begin with a thought? Take the arcade hit Donkey Kong for example. You're a guy trying to rescue his girlfriend (story! Plot!) from an evil monkey. This monkey has to stop you some way...lets think...He'll throw an infinite number of barrels at you! Now...how can Mario get to his girlfriend...THE PRINCESS! Well, here are our limitations. And that is where you start focusing on the design of the game.

>>136593019
>there is very little, if anything, you can do in a game that has not been anticipated by the developers
how am i supposed to take you seriously when you post wildly inaccurate things like this? honestly

>>136593237
>It is the exact same thing you fucking idiot.
no, it's not, you fucking moron

fucking google it

>>136593027
>He is right that every game (computer game) is narrative by definition.
everything is narrative by definition then, because reality is a medium in which physicality emerges

you are fucking dumb, go learn SOMETHING about narratology vs. ludology in respect to video games, then come back and talk to me

>>136593382
>>136593408
That's exactly it. If you could just install all of them at once, then it wouldn't be a problem at all. Which is why I only said it effects the replay value. Becaues you can deal with it the first time. It's not THAT long.

>>136593419
yeah but then you get into the whole argument about authorial intent/newcriticism/Barthes which for some reason i think is philosophically and intellectually beyond the scope of mario and sonic canon.

it's still hilarious to read, though.

http://themushroomkingdom.net/board/index.php?topic=13535.0

>>136593419
This. gtfo with your canon fan made shit

/thread.

>>136593363
never played it
don't have a ps3
will probably play it for pc