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>THE GRAPHICS, SOUND AND VOICE ACTING IS TOP NOTCH, SOUNDS TO ME LIKE SOME OF THE COMBAT DIALOG IS RECYCLED FROM THE DOW GAMES THOUGH
>SOUND AND VOICE ACTING IS TOP NOTCH, SOUNDS TO ME LIKE SOME OF THE COMBAT
>VOICE ACTING IS TOP NOTCH, SOUNDS TO ME
>TOP NOTCH, SOUNDS
>NOTCH

You blew it.

SPESS MAHREEN

So, is it good?

Inb4 viral
This is obviously just a consumer who is giving a fair, balanced overview of the demo

Love it, it looks like gears of war, and when you first start playing it you're like "huh a GOW ripoff" but when you get to the actual combat it's nothing like it. Actually excuse me i'm gonna play it through on Hard again. for the 4th time.

>>107707628
Demo was great, it's just how you would imagine a game about fucking spess mahreenes.

See, I died like seven times because

Oh right, I never found out, I guess the little shit things with jury rigged explosives insta-killed me, or the orks decided to throw seven grenades at once, or whatever.

You're also incredibly slow, and easy to kill, I defended this game, but this demo feels like GoW with no cover.

Color me unimpressed, it's on my pirate list now, not my must buy list.

>>107706272
>THE VOICE ACTING IS TOP NOTCH

No, it's not. The orks don't sound like orks should

There needs to be a parry mechanic

Ork VA suck compared to DoW II

Other then those things, game has been sold to me and I will be pre-ordering tonight

>>107707495

Warhammer 40k fanboys are bloodthirsty manchildren.

>>107707724

Relic, we like your game. Quit viraling like fucking faggots.

Spend your energy re-recording some of the ork voices, they aren't nearly as good as the DoW work.

>supporting gw in any form

Seriously?

>>107707724

Did you at least finish the demo?

I played the game on hard and I only died once on the area you described. I think the game is actually very easy thanks to ultimate mode in the right circumstances

Total Biscuits quick review of the demo. He doesn't even explore half of the things you can do in combat, and doesn't pick up the poweraxe, yet he goes completely nuts about how good it is. He's a massive fanboy for the game and the IP, but i agree with him mostly.

Official picture for future generals.

>>107706272
IT IS FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING AWESOME, MAH NIGGA'
WE GON' BUY THIS SHIT, /v/

>>107707728
Axe Killer eat you! Axe killer no like deal!

>>107707914

forgot link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb50aAFiOpM&

Darksiders with bolters

Ork voice actors suck, Space marines faces never move, combat is run in and kill shit or hold one mouse button and kill shit, game was built for a controller and feels clunky and cumbersome on M&K, typical move to area kill everything combat.
The game is just fanboy porn that is all.

>>107707915

There should be a "U" in Mehreen by the way

I always wanted to get into Warhammer 40k, but I hate RTS's.
I also own a PS3, is the demo on there yet?
Last I heard it wasn't.

>>107707724
>play on hard
>died like 2 times in total

Oh /v/, i'm soooooo glad you are enjoying this game!

now go buy that fucking GK codex, bitch

>>107707751
>compared to DoW II

Oooo, no, champ, nothing sucks compared to DoW II, that game hurt my faith in Relic on so many levels.

>>107707859
>sound opinion
>obvious troll
>all caps spam on /v/
>not a viral

Those jetpacks are almost as cool as hats

http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM
http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM
http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM
http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM
http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM
http://youtu.be/nb50aAFiOpM

>u mad hater fags

>>107707724

ive only died once

on hard

fucking casuals

i'm watching my friend play the demo at this very moment and it looks.....a LOT like gears of war.

Only complaint I had is that you have to play as the Ultrasmurfs.
I WANNA PLAY AS A DESERT FANG OR A SALAMANDER GODDAMNIT
>>107708000
And what kind of game would YOU want Warhammer 40k to be, oh wise one?
An RTS? And let the MLG faggots take it over?
A full-on shooter? And casualize it?

>>107708045
PS3 demo is out tomorrow, the 24th.

>>107708131
>Space Marine
>hats
>preorder
>tf2 hats
>space marine tf2 hats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29JgcYS1UBY

the game looks completely mediocre.

>>107708240
In my opinion, it's a lot better than GoW.

>>107707884

No, I just played, died repeatedly trying to be a speesh muhreen like I always wanted, and realized I'd have to stand back, shoot guys like a dick, pick 'em off for health regens, use my "ultimate mode" or whatever(can anyone say adrenaline?) to survive wading into them.

Felt like a weak bitch, not like a Space Marine, so, I'll pirate it and see if perhaps there's more to it.

> I DONT CARE IF YOU SAY VIRAL OR WHATEVER IM SOLD ON THIS
Sage for lack of kawaii and viral marketing/

>mfw that smooth, beautiful slaughter

I've never enjoyed being SPEESS MEHREEN so much.

>>107707724
>>107708064
>>107708214

Wait...you can die in this game?

Protips:
Toss grenades with Q
Detonate Vengeance Launcher grenades with R
F stuns a target, press E on stunned target to execute and gain HP
RMB+RMB+RMB+F does a big aoe stun (with the chainsword equipped)
T is God mode. It seems that you can execute without stunning with it on. Also it makes you rip Nobs apart.

>>107708279
No, the demo's out today. I played it on PS3 about an hour ago.

So where can I download it? Not seeing it on steam.

Most fun I've had with vidya in a huge while.

AND IT'S ONLY A DEMO

>>107708345
Tip, that's not how you be a Space Marine.
You go right the fuck in and beat them all dead with a chainsword.
A full combo will clear groups, and some of the strikes will stun an enemy so you can get healed.

Anyone else wish that Dynamic Reload was in more games? Whole time playing the demo I was wishing it was there

>>107708622

http://www.spacemarine.com/Demo

You have to register

I agree poster No. 107706272! As a big fan of shooting games, I have to say I love Space Marine! This is definitely going to be my most purchased game! I've already got my preorder from gamestop and two more from wal-mart for my friends! I can't wait to get my game on when it comes out! I especially love how we put all of the different faction armors in multiplayer. I'm very excited for this game! Can't wait!

>demo is only available on steam if you have preordered.

the fuck

wouldnt you put the demo out openly so that more people can try it leading to potentially more sales?

>>107708633

They, like, discourage that, with grenades and suicidal squiggs that one-shot you, a Space Marine can't survive an explosion, Relic? Come on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzo3uFkg8gM&feature=related

>>107708723
Durr

>>107708693

Well excuse us for expressing love for good vidya and not trashtalking each other

on steam i enter the code and it says my accout already owns the title, it's not in my games list nor can i find it on steam, what gives?

while we're on this topic, how does the rocket/ blue blink thing launcher work?

is there a detonate button?

something tells me i gotta be a WH40K nut to enjoy this game and for the rest of us it'll be a generic hack'n'slash game

going to check out the youtubes instead. if it looks good enogh i'll give it a try

2 complaints:
1. Length
I could only go through two areas that lasted me about 5 or so minutes, then I was given a screen letting me know to buy the game(WHICH I MOTHERFUCKING WILL)
2. Only one Chapter to play as. In the demo for Kill Team, you can play as 5 separate Chapters(Ultramines, Blood Ravens, Salamanders, and a couple others that I forget). Not many different classes in the demo, but you could be all of them.
>>107708834
On the explosive gun, just reload when you fire off an explosive.

>>107708834

Read:

>>107708448

you need to enter a code to install the demo? i just searched space marine in steam and installed the demo... what happened

>>107708723

YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SO MAD, YOU DON"T NEED TO BUY THE GAME TO GET THE DEMO. YOU NEED TO JOIN A FORUM. THATS FREE DIPSHIT.

>>107708753
Those little fuckers only appear once.
After that it's straight up hack n' slash.

I thought it was mediocre until I got the jump pack.

Then hole-e-shit.

Still, if its one thing I learned in life is that 40k faggots will fap over ANYTHING aslong as it has a 40k logo on it.

Friend of mine bought DoW, DoW2 + Every Expansion just because its 40k, then spammed my messenger with OMGSOGOOD when the demo was released for SPESS MORINE.

Decent game. Nothing fancy at all.

Can't find the demo on steam. Little help, anyone?
Is it available from the site if you sign up?

>>107709016

http://www.spacemarine.com/Demo

Register and go to this link and you get a code to activate on sTeam

> Get key from website
> Enter into steam
> Product already owned
> Not in Library

>>107709072

You don't need to do that.
I just downloaded it from Steam.

>>107708753

You can shoot the squigs before they get to you, and if you see the nade indicator just charge up to the nearest shoota and push his shit in. It's really not that hard, even on Hard.

>>107708374
>Not quoting the guy you're replying to
>Not doing your junior high homework

>>107709101
how stupid can you be? just download it from the store page you tard

>>107708963
In the demo? Well, cool, but that means they're in there, and I will invariably die randomly from them because I'm apparently wearing lacy blue and gold lingerie.

Like I said, will pirate it and see if it's worth buying, or even worth my time as a WH40K fan

PEOPLE

GO THE THE STORE PAGE OF THE GAME

DOWNLOAD THE DEMO FROM THERE

YOU DONT NEED NO FUCKING KEY

>Start playing, boredly stabbing stuff with Chainsword occasionally, mostly just shooting the Orks
>No big ones yet, meh
>Suddenly execute an enemy on accident
>HOLY FUCK THIS IS SO AWESOME
>Purposefully do it again, enjoying myself
>Find Heavy Bolter when I reach the crane
>LET'S FUCKING DO THIS
>Fucking everything dies
>Get to next mission
>Find the Jump Pack
>I'M THE KING OF EVERYTHING.jpg
It's iffy if you don't get used to the controls, but it's fucking awesome.

>>107709183

> implying it's in the store.

>>107708834

THE RELOAD BUTTON ACTS AS YOUR DETONATOR. TAP IT AND THE GRENADES WILL DETONATE IN THE ORDER THAT YOU PLANTED THEM. HAPPY HUNTING

>>107709072
the fuck are you guys even talking about?

I agree with OP, the demo was really amazing... I didnt expect so much.. But holy shit... Straight up anal style-im pleased with this game.

dont fucking compare it to gears of war., fuck gears of war.

For the emprah?

>>107709216
>you didn't know you had that heavy bolter the whole time

The emprah is disappoint, son.

so, where is the mac version?

>>107709216
>Find Heavy Bolter when I reach the crane
There's a Heavy Bolter in the demo? GIVE ME A PRECISE LOCATION NOW NOW NOW.

>>107709366
Didn't even know, I only thought I had the small hand-version I was carrying around.

Every fight is a boss fight when you fight like a boss.

Yup

Went in thinking it could be good, came out thinking why did I do this, but enough about OP's mom, demo is bad.

>>107709433
You should be able to find it once you reach the crane, just look at the boxes near the gate that goes down before the little exploding Squiggs make their only appearance.

this game was meant to be played with a controller, not mouse + keyboard


fucking deal

>gears of war

>>107709547
Get a gamepad then, faggot,

>>107709513
You start with all the guns in your inventory. That's ammo at the crane.

If you don't buy this game and enjoy it legions of fa/tg/uys will find you and rape you.

>>107709513

lol fail

it's a decent game but I'll be pirating it. I never saw much variety in the melee mechanics really, only 4 combos per weapon and about the same for executions. For a game that's heavy into melee, I thought there'd be more variety. I started getting a bit bored around the final fight near the elevator, and I don't think it'll be any better if you have to rinse and repeat for hours in the campaign. The jump pack was nice though.

The game seems good but that's because of the hype around it, there hasn't been any proper 40K action game with space marines, and it's just a demo.

>>107709583
No, it's more like Darksiders + gears, with no cover system, instead you regain health by SMASHING THE SHIT OUT OF ENEMIES

> Not on steam
> Get code from website
> Says enter on steam
> Steam keeps returning error when trying to activate it

>>107709854
By SMASHING THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYTHING, you obviously mean CURBSTOMPING THOSE GREEN LITTLE SHOOTA' NIGGA'S

>>107708940
Calm Down Numb Nuts.

TRYING to question the point of that move.

Why would you limit access to the DEMO.

They're put out there are a reason, to attract potential customers.

Hell the game isn't even on steam from me yet. Thats another thing I'm wondering about. You can only get the demo off of steam if you pre-ordered and you can only pre-order if you're not in Europe or Britain, I dont know which. Shits making to sense.

And, yes incase you dont read (which you wont) i know about those shitty forums and what not

>>107709366
>>107709366
...There's a heavy bolter in the game? Fucking where??

>Consolefags are gladly enjoying their demo
>PCfags are flipping out, saying the controls are shit, can barely even get the demo

Idort masterrace

Watching TB play this and squeal like a little girl was funny. God he's fucking terrible at video games.

LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT:

they made a mediocre 3rd person shooter, based on a board game, risking to alienate the only fanbase they have, and it's not even as popular as other franchises out there.

what were they thinking?

>Sign up
>"Your password is wrong"
>Well I don't think so but I guess I'll request a password reset
>"Click on this link to temporarily log in and reset your password"
>"You have tried to use a one-time login link which has either been used or is no longer valid. Please request a new one using the form below."

Every fucking time.

>>107709950
you can get the demo without signing up for the forums. The pre-order people simply got earlier access to it.

>101 replies

7/10 OP.

>the controls are shit

What?
Go in options.
Turn off mouse smoothing.
Ta-da.

THATS NOT A HEAVY BOLTER THERE IS NO HEAVY BOLTER!!!

DEMO WEAPONS

BOLT PISTOL
BOLTER
STALKER BOLTER
VENGEANCE LAUNCHER
CHAIN SWORD
POWER AXE
GRENADES

>>107710061
>>107710061
>Be a pcfag
>Find the controls very good

To be honest, I was disappointed. But don't get me wrong, it's not a bad game, and the length to which they stuck to the 40K lore is great, but it's just not what I expected.

I love shooting, but once I get into Melee it's just clicking repeatadly until everyone's dead, which is about as fun as chewing my own balls off. But when I do actually manage to thin down the Orks enough to pull out my Bolter and lay into them, it's fun as fuck. Another thing is the Jumppack, I found that boring and unnecessary, you could only do one fucking thing with it, eventually I stopped using it because it was even more monotonous than the Melee.

But seriously, the other features are amazing, the way the ground shakes when you run, the way you dwarf the Guardsmen, the way you just throw yourself balls deep into enemy territory because fuck them you're a spehss mahreen is great. As a 40Kfag since I was 10, it's great to see a game that finally sticks to the lore unlike SOME FUCKING GAMES/MOVIES

TL;DR shitty melee, Jumppacks are boring, everything else's grea

>>107709950
europe here

>>107710163
>Mediocre
>Never played it
It's not completely god-tier, but it is NOT mediocre.

I'm not really into warhammer, neither the fantasy one nor the 40K one.

I enjoyed this demo. Fast paced, simplistic combat, but very enjoyable. Would I buy it? Probably not. If anything, I might rent it or pirate it, since I'm probably not going to touch the MP.

I also have no idea what you people are on about in regards to accessing the demo. I just got it off steam without having to preorder or registering on the forums or whatever.

>>107709513
You fucking liar, there's only ammo for weapons you already have there.
How could you get my hopes up.

Why the fuck can't I see this in the store?

>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248
>>107710248

this


if you think it sucks just plug in a xbox controller

the fun part is the people who is creamming their pants over this game were bashing GoW nonstop

So you're saying the game is so good, that it will make you forget what war is?

>>107710163

If you think this is Games Workshop's first foray into games, get fucked.

And the "only" fanbase they have? I didn't realize things could have more than one fanbase, dumbass.

>>107710522
I enjoyed GoW a bit, but the movement is clunky for a giant muscle-monster who should be able to move at the speed of the Hulk.
An Adeptus Astartes, however, the movement works perfectly as they're stuck in giant fucking pauldrons.

waitaminute.

Space Marine ISN'T even available on steam for Europe yet.

and that key off the forums tells you "you already own the game"

Did they forget to update eu steam or are they just being that dickish

1- controls on PC aren't bad, turn off mouse smoothing

2-It's very smoothly optimized and you can make it run even better by tuning off vsynch, like most other games

This game is epic. Relic here is my CC# 4210-9963-8211-4721 Exp. 11/12 CVC: 601. Take whatever you need and please rape my face.

If you can't play as an Ork in the full-game I am gonna be fucking PISSED.

>>107710437
try this url
steam://install/55410

> not on steam
> code they give you don't work

How the fuck are you guys playing this?

>>107709697
>If you don't buy this game and enjoy it legions of fa/tg/uys will find you and rape you.

if only they could get their dicks out of the folds of fat surrounding their bodies

Sort of game I'd get a lend off of a friend but wouldn't buy.

I won't pirate it either, I really want to see this game do well, 40K doesn't get enough mainstream attention, if this does well it should surely spawn a movie that isn't terrible.

>>107710775
Which kind of card?

>>107710790

the game is called SPACE MARINE

not ORK

got the demo off steam and i fucking love it. however my puny laptop i had to bring to college can barely play it without smoke pouring out of the vent...

>>107708000
>Ork voice actors suck,
I was about to post some critique regarding them, specifically how my trained subconscious confuses them with Imperial Guardsmen.

y do no wear helmet?

>>107710923
MasterCard

>>107710687
I played it yesterday, don't know how other people are having this problem

>>107709458

You used the wrong search term.

>>107711023
Name?

>>107710687
see
>>107710280

where do you live? UK? also try this
>>107710820

why do the orks sound like brits and not orks

VIRAL

At first the Ork voices really weirded me out but i got over it.

Im hoping to see some Mekboyz/Weirdboyz and other cool ork units

OMFG SO MUCH VIRAL SHIT IN HERE

COME ON RELIC!

>>107707724

Could you be any more casual. "bawwww i died a lot" is not a game being bad. It's YOU being bad.

I haven't played Space Marine, I have no idea how it works. But I read your comment and now I feel the need to tell you that your judgement is wrong.

Thank you.

>>107711270

If it is, I don't care.

40K bros are the best bros, Games Workshop is the BEST workshop.

>>107710775
>Posts fake card

>literally just god of war mashed with gears of war
>even in the 5 minutes of the demo, I got extremely tired of hearing SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES SPACE MARINES

I love Warhammer and all, but this isn't all that great

>>107711311
There are Weirdboyz, but no Mekboyz.

> Spes meheen not coming to British steam
> mfw valve being cunts

The mareehns sound like they have been doing this shit for a billion years.

A mighty blow from the "power axe" which would shatter dimensions and the mc barely utters a singly "unghhh...."

Jesus christ.

>>107711522
Damn i did see a killer kann in the trailer so that should be fun!

>>107711561
They have.

I don't know anything about warhammer, is that the way orks are supposed to sound? Because that's certainly not what I was expecting.

>>107711534

>implying its valves fault

>>107711628
They're supposed to have more broken, raspy voices.

Click click click stun execute. Click click stun win wrestling match against nob, watch him lose his head.

Oh I guess the vengeance launcher is cool too. Maybe. Anyone got a thunderhammer I can use?

>>107711561

They have dude, well centuries really

>>107711680

THQ are being cunts then

But I'm busy playing Vanquish right now

UK BROS
>UK BROS
UK BROS
>UK BROS
UK BROS

Paste this into Internet Explorer - "steam://install/55410"
(not Chrome or Fox)

shit *should* work, worked for my atleast and i'm in the highlands

>>107711620
>>107711720

Oh...

Well.

Still, it sounds bloody awkward to fight orks while sounding bored to death.

tl;dr

>>107711561

Well they are the genetically altered Astartes, superhuman killing machies who live for hundreds of years and serve as the last line of defense against the xenos that would destroy the Imperium, so...

>>107711628
listen to these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kAYN1AC8A

>>107711534
Game threatened to not stock the game at all if the game was pre-orderable at all on steam.

>>107711812
Ultramarines think of fighting as a chore.
It's the Imperial Fists, Space Wolves and Salamanders that always sound over-joyed in combat.

did someone say SPESS MAREEN?

only problem i have with the controls is that the melee goes in the direction of the movement and not the camera.

ok for pads i guess but not so much for kb+m

>>107711628
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzmo0_NePM0

>>107711778

implying its THQs fault

>>107708064
>dying on hard
>not putting your orks in the fridge
>using jetpacks instead of sniper rifles
>using ultra mode
>taking damage

>>107709382
>mac
>os for "creatives"
>artists
>cartoon artists
>anthro artists
>FURRIES
>PURGE

Right you are Ken.
I'm downloading this right now.

>>107712057

It's someones fault. I can download the demo on xbox live or PSN but I don't want to play the console version.

>>107711628
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5T6fkE18hk
are the orkz I know and love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcA9uFiybRY
What I think the orkz sound like now.
Or whatever kept uttering "spehs mareens" in the demo.

Dear moron in this thread: you found a STALKER PATTERN BOLTER, not a heavy bolter. Screw you for getting my hopes up.

>>107709216

yes, you.

If you die, it is because you sucked. There is a stun attack. Use it. Vengeance launcher the fuckers as they rush you, and then bolter them until they get into range for some lumberjacking. Then it's all about managing stun attacks until there's few enough of them for you to safely turn them into free paint for your armor.

USE THE FUCKING F KEY, YOU MASHING FAGGOTS.

>>107712147
Why not?
It's better than the PC version by a long-shot.

>>107712162
Dear moron, you have the Stalker Bolter from the beginning.

>>107712186
RED PAINT FOR THE PAINT GOD

>>107712217
>better than pc version
BAHAHAHAHAHAH
UR FUCKING HILARIOUS.

UR CONTROLS ARE SHIT
UR GRAPHICS ARE SHIT
UR GAMEPLAY IS SHIT
UR CAMERA ANGLE IS SHIT
UR MULTIPLAYER IS SHIT

Not chaos?
you dont know shit about video games.

This game is easily an 8/10 and if you're feeling generous a 9. The PC controls are great, I dont know what you fucking /v/irgins are bitching about. I used both my 360 controller and M+K on Hard mode and I EASILY kicked the shit out of both levels with the superior aiming of M+K.

All you other faggots claiming "Its just darksiders + gears of war" like it some kinda fucking insult.

Darksiders was an amazing game with high review scores as was Gears of War. Two different third person action games with one focused on combat and the other with ranged weapons.

How can you fat fucks complain about a game that merges the two perfectly and actually gets the feel, look, and lore of Warhammer 40k dead on. You assholes just want to see this game fail because you have a hard-on for trying to piss off 40k fanboys.

I like alot of the ork dialogue it adds a funny side to game but i can't really remember did any of the orks scream "Waaaaagh" at all?

Also im pretty sure i heard an ork scream "Zoggin
HELL" and that made me laugh.

>>107711534
>yfw its GAME.UK that made them remove it

Valve has nothing to do with it. Be mad at GAME!

Actually, the problem with the orks is not the quality of the voice itself, it's the kind of stuff they say. Here's an example of how they actually talk. They don't use regular english.

The orky sounds tho, dey was givin me a headache. It’s like da gitz wot recorded dese voices don’t know dat nothin is meaner and tougher than an ork! Blame if it didn’t sound like the oomies was yellin out SPACE MAREENS. I turned about and nearly fainted I did, it was our own sluggaz wot was squeeling like a pansy. When youse sees da humie, you call the little blighter a humie, pinkskin, beakie, or runty little git. Better yet, ya just STOMP HIM GOOD. Any proppa ork knows dat da biggest, baddiest, killiest orks is da one wit da bigggest, loudest Waaaaagh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKKYsqvqtL4

>>107712478
it begins

>>107712447
>UR CONTROLS ARE SHIT
Nope, not in this, did you not see the complaints earlier for the PC fags?
>UR GRAPHICS ARE SHIT
They look pretty good in this one, actually
>GAMEPLAY IS SHIT
It isn't even different from the PC version in terms of gameplay
>CAMERA ANGLE IS SHIT
Same angles
>MULTIPLAYER IS SHIt
HOw do you know what's not shit if it's not even around?