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  • File : 1313622649.jpg-(156 KB, 1024x768, the-lord-of-the-rings-the-return-of-the-(...).jpg)
    156 KB Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:10 No.17848697  
    Unrealistic things you hate in movies.

    Horses charging into men in formation, especially spearmen and/or pikemen.

    Return of the King drove me insane with that. 6,000 Rohirrim cavalry charging into 100,000 orcs with pikemen in the front and archers in the back, it would have been a masacre.

    First, the horses wouldn't have charged into a solid formation. You can't get a horse, not even a trained warhorse, to charge into a wall let alone a wall of smelly screaming orcs trying to stab them in the face.

    Second, the horses can't knock down rows of people. A 700 pound horse can't barrel over 200 pound men (orcs) like it's nothing. A 5,000 pound pickup truck hitting a 200 pound deer leaves some serious damage.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:12 No.17848707
    >>17848697
    Who gives a flying fuck? Realistic fights are fucking boring to watch. Even the fights in Ong Bak are unrealistic.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:12 No.17848714
    they were enchanted horses
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:13 No.17848718
    >knock someone unconscious for several hours
    >they don't have severe brain damage
    >> Child & Baby Lover !!A/6Mzf+2u+x 08/17/11(Wed)19:13 No.17848720
    >fight scene
    >main character faces off with 6+ bad guys
    >turns into a one-on-one fight
    >6 bad guys never gang up and kill the main character


    >gun fight
    >1 foot away from each other
    >run around in a circle shooting
    >nobody gets hit
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:13 No.17848725
    Elven horses don't give a shit about your rules OP. Maybe you should read the books instead of crying like a little baby about superfluous details.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:14 No.17848731
         File1313622871.jpg-(460 KB, 2000x2619, 1312733632557.jpg)
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    >guy pulls out a gun and points it someone to threaten them
    >they then cock the gun

    well shit nigger, then that wasn't a very good threat since your gun wouldn't have fired until you put a bullet in the chamber
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:14 No.17848736
    Both times the orcs broke and ran. Yeah the first line of the charge should have been devastated though.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:14 No.17848738
    >axe or spear fight
    >pulling sword out of non-metal sheath
    >metal-on-metal sound
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:15 No.17848742
    >>17848718
    >unconscious

    Why would you have brain damage? If you weren't breathing for minutes, sure. But typically you breathe when you're unconscious. And if you don't, you're dead anyway.

    Fun fact: If you hold your breath long enough, you will pass out. Know why? Because it stops you from killing yourself that way, since by passing out you don't have control over holding your breath and you start breathing instinctively again.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:15 No.17848743
    >Sneak up to door.
    >Locked
    >take out lockpick kit
    >Pick lock in less than one second.
    DEADBOLT IS NEVER LOCkED
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:15 No.17848748
    OP is confusing REAL horses with his pathetic my little pony shit

    I've seen horses in real life, they're fucking huge and could probably crush a human skull with one foot
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:15 No.17848751
         File1313622938.jpg-(11 KB, 250x250, 1312687020004.jpg)
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    oh boy, i can't wait to hear the LOTR fanboy rage.

    why didn't they just take a ship out into the ocean and drop the ring? boom, problem solved.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:16 No.17848760
    >>17848720
    >>17848731
    >>17848738
    source?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:17 No.17848767
         File1313623051.jpg-(91 KB, 323x323, 1309068353288.jpg)
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    >>17848731
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:17 No.17848768
    >>17848742

    when you're knocked unconscious, you usually wake up a few seconds or a few minutes afterwards.

    if you don't, then the injury is survive and there will be some form of brain damage.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848777
    cavalry charges are fucking impressive from the proper side of them, and devastating from the wrong side of them.

    the third, fourth, and fifth rows would have no pikes to contend with at all, and all the power of a ton of muscle behind every scimitar/sword

    oh, and you: the ring WANTS to be found
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848781
    >>17848748
    >I've seen horses in real life
    That's not a very common thing, I wish I could see dinosaurs myself.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848782
    >>17848760
    For metal-on-metal, check Game of Thrones or any Kung Fu movie
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848786
    >>17848768
    Not true.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848787
    First, yes they can. There are numerous, well-recorded accounts of cavalry charging against a solid formation, from Alexander's campaigns all the way until the 1900s.

    The second point you're only partially correct about. Yes, a war horse, properly trained, could easily barrel over a 200 pound man. However, the depiction of the horses barreling over row after row of orcs was unrealistic - eventually their momentum would be arrested by sheer numbers.

    Finally, in regards to the charging cavalry, you forget that Aragorn arrived shortly after their charge. Sure, eventually, the Rohirrim would have been slaughtered by the orcs. But the arrival of Aragorn with the dead prevented them from being totally wiped out.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848790
    >>17848748
    >I've seen horses in real life

    Wow horses are a pretty rare and elusive creature.

    >>17848697
    >Second, the horses can't knock down rows of people
    >Implying a horse didn't run over my mothers car and cave the roof in
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848795
    >>17848742
    Any force large enough to knock you out for several hours will in all likeliness cause permanent damage to the brain. IT has nothing to do with starving the brain of oxygen purely the fact that jarring the brain that much will damage it.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:18 No.17848797
    You know what part was so fucking unrealistic in LotR?
    Orcs, Trolls, Giant fucking Eagles, Wizards, Elves, Dwarves.
    I can imagine how boring Pelennor Fields would have been if you directed it. OH MAN LOOK AT ALL THOSE ORCS IN FORMATION WE MIGHT AS WELL TURN THE FUCK AROUND AND LET MINAS TIRITH BURN HUH GUYS?
    Stop bitching over silly shit, why don't you direct a fucking movie?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:19 No.17848801
    >>17848751

    Now you know where JAWS came from.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:19 No.17848803
    >>17848731

    You'd only be right if it was a single-action revolver

    cocking the hammer just makes it easier to pull the trigger on a double-action, which are the vast majority of movie guns.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:19 No.17848806
    >>17848787
    trolled hard
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848812
    >complaining about logistics in a movie that has fucking wizards and trolls.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848815
    >>17848742

    Your brain getting knocked around in your skull damages it.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848817
    >>17848795
    I was thinking more along the lines of knocked out by tranquillizers and shit like that.

    Sure getting punched and being out cold for hours is stupid.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848818
    >>17848781
    go see a huge crocodile

    same same
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848819
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    >>17848806
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:20 No.17848821
    >>17848777

    cavalry charges work against loose formations. the horses won't charge a solid line of men.

    plus 6,000 cavalry versus 100,000 orcs. they would have been enveloped and massacred. but hey, gotta have a plot device going.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:21 No.17848824
    >>17848751
    >problem delayed
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:21 No.17848828
    >>17848751
    I can't believe I'm seriously writing an answer to you but that thing is explained in Silmarillion I believe.

    The ring can corrupt another living under the sea and try to make its way to Sauron back.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:22 No.17848835
    >>17848817
    Dude, it was pretty clear from the outset that the dude was talking about getting LNOCKED unconscious.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:22 No.17848840
    >>17848824

    what, until Sauron develops submarines?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:22 No.17848843
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    Normally I'd agree with you OP but it's a fantasy world, not a depiction of medieval history. There were higher powers at work. It probably didn't hurt that Gandalf the White was leading the charge with the rising sun's rays hitting the evil, old orcs in the face.

    pic somewhat related - it;s one warrior pwning a dozen others
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:23 No.17848849
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    >110lb woman floors 300lb goons with single punches
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:23 No.17848851
    >>17848803
    I'm sure when he said 'cocked' he meant 'racking the slide'.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:23 No.17848856
    >>17848818
    >crocodile
    nope

    bird more like

    or: shark
    those were around then, they're the closest you'll get to seeing a dinosaur
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:23 No.17848857
    >>17848731

    What bothers me more is when they have a modern gun, and they have it pointed at someone, and to show that they mean business they pull the hammer back.

    I mean unless you're holding an old school single action revolver pulling the hammer back is fucking pointless since pulling the trigger does the exact same thing.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:23 No.17848864
    >>17848828

    deep sea creatures can't survive the pressure changes, that's why all the samples marine biologists take from the deep sea are dead or die shortly after they reach the surface.

    plus i doubt an angel fish can make its way to mordor
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:24 No.17848873
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    >>17848828
    THERE'LL BE NO ACCUSATIONS, JUST FRIENDLY CRUSTACEANS
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:24 No.17848877
    >>17848856
    bitch, please. list the differences between a huge ass crocodile and a dinosaur

    and while you're at it, go see the biggest creature ever to live on earth; a blue whale
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:24 No.17848878
    >>17848856
    Don't be stupid because you know a bit of trivia about birds. Crocodiles ARE dinosaurs, birds are pieces of shit that evolved from the pansiest dinosaur mulatto faggots to ever exist. Seriously stop being stupid
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:25 No.17848883
    >>17848857
    >I mean unless you're holding an old school single action revolver pulling the hammer back is fucking pointless since pulling the trigger does the exact same thing.

    As anon above said, cocking the hammer decreases trigger pull forces thus making the shot easier. But when you're at the ranges where this typically happens in movies, it is pretty pointless.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:26 No.17848898
    >>17848851

    In what movie does some faggot rack the slide after pointing the gun at someone?

    Cocking back the hammer to show you're serious is a very prevalent film trope, I've never seen someone rack the slide in a movie to do that.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:26 No.17848899
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    >considering realism in a movie with fucking MAGIC in it
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:26 No.17848901
    >get tossed by an explosion
    >don't die from the pressure wave ripping your lungs and internal organs to shreds.

    i'm look at you Super8. A fucking tanker car from a train explodes 15 feet from a kid and it's like nothing happened
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:26 No.17848904
    >>17848878
    >velociraptors
    >faggots

    It. Is. On.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:27 No.17848911
    >>17848864
    Yeah, sure. In a realm that there are things like Orcs and stuff, there's absolutely no sea creature that can survive the pressure changes.

    A creature takes the ring to the shore but it dies because of no water, ta-daa ring is at the shore waiting for a hobbit to pick it up.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:27 No.17848917
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    I like how LOTR faggots cant stand criticism and just rage with bullshit argument reasoning "HURRR ITS FANTASY SO YOU CANT CRITICIZE MY MOVIES, IMA GONNA MARATHON ALL OF THE EXTENDED EDITIONS WITH PIZZA HUT AND GET EVEN MORE FAT"
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:27 No.17848919
    >>17848821

    >Battle of Delium
    >Battle of Leuctra
    >Battle of Mantinea
    >Battle of Lutzen

    I could go on, and on, and on.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:28 No.17848924
    >>17848911

    >implying the ring doesn't fall into an underwater volcano
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:28 No.17848925
    >>17848856
    >implying that recognizable sharks haven't been around since before dinosaurs.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:28 No.17848928
    >>17848898
    I've seen it in a few. I've also seen in several movies/shows where you see a characters rack the slide to show he's ready for shit to go down and then moments later, see him rack it again for no reason except to show how ready he is.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:28 No.17848931
         File1313623693.png-(19 KB, 220x134, 220px-Gigantoraptor_size.png)
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    >>17848878
    >>17848877
    crocodiles are NOT dinosaurs, entirely different species and they havent evolded from dinosaurs either, asshole. they're as much actual dinosaurs as shark, was my point.

    >birds are pieces of shit that evolved from the pansiest dinosaur mulatto faggots to ever exist.
    >mfw
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:28 No.17848946
    >>17848883

    You've never had a gun pointed at you before

    You're already scared out of your mind. Hearing that 'click' breaks a lot more people than you'd imagine.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:29 No.17848957
    >>17848925
    one can only ponder

    theyve been around what, billions of years? and why have _we_ evolved, having been around some 3000 years? shouldnt they, by definition, be more evolved than us?

    maybe they are and they just realized that there's no point living like we do and being sentient.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:30 No.17848966
    >>17848919

    those are cavalry verses cavalry, cavalry versus troops in loose formation, or cavalry outflanking and hitting the exposed sides of a formation.

    not a smaller cavalry force taking on a superior infantry force in formation armed with pikes
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:31 No.17848969
    >>17848946
    Ok buddy. I'm sure you dad really IS a navy SEAL too and he really DID take down Bin Laden.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:32 No.17848986
         File1313623946.jpg-(319 KB, 940x2004, 1312666236103.jpg)
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    >>17848969

    if someone pointed a gun at me, then moved their hand to rack the slide, i would shoot him because that's just telling me his gun isn't ready to fire
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:33 No.17848996
    >>17848969

    7/10
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:33 No.17848997
    >>17848857
    >exactly the same
    No not quite.

    It's mainly artistic license though, the sound and action is used to convey readiness to shoot.

    "You aren't going to shoot me"

    *click*

    "Ok, I'll tell you where the biscuits are Timmy.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:33 No.17848998
    >>17848957
    Or perhaps they have reached an evolutionary equilibrium and they are fine as the apex predators they currently are.

    Scorpions and spider haven't changed much in a few millions years either except for size and even that is just because everything else suddenly got a lot smaller after the dinosaurs.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:34 No.17849022
    >>17848998
    why did things get smaller? imagine how awesome itd be if we had fuckhuge scorpions

    well not for us
    but for them
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:36 No.17849045
    >>17849022
    Because when you prey is tiny and can move a lot faster than you and can hear you coming from a few hundred meters away, you tend to die from starvation unless you get smaller too.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:36 No.17849052
    >>17848966

    You're absolutely wrong, learn to research.

    The Thebans specifically invented heavy cavalry to combat the dominant phalanx used in Greek warfare. They were specifically trained to charge massed infantry units.

    And I completely ignored some of the most famous/frequent usage of heavy cavalry, specifically Alexander's Asian campaigns and Parthian heavy cavalry at the Battle of Carrhae.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:38 No.17849064
    >pick up gun
    >click clack click
    >move gun
    >click clack click
    >look at gun
    >click clack click
    >casually mention a gun
    >click clack click
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:38 No.17849065
    >>17848957
    >shouldn't they be more evolved than us

    "more evolved" is a relatively meaningless phrase that shows a gargantuan lack of understanding of the theory.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:38 No.17849068
    >>17849022

    also, oxygen levels were 3 times higher several hundred million years ago allowing for larger creatures
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:38 No.17849076
    >>17848786
    Actually you suffer brain damage (even if it is minimal) any time you get knocked unconscious, whether it be for 2 seconds or 2 hours.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:39 No.17849086
    >>17849076

    hence, the longer you're unconscious the greater the injury, and the greater the brain damage
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:39 No.17849092
    >>17849065
    But...but...pokemon...
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:41 No.17849124
    >>17848697
    Fun fact, they used to blind war horses so they would run into formations. Check your facts OP
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:42 No.17849135
    >>17849092
    Yes, my crocodile just evolved into a crocoduck. U MAD JELLY?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:42 No.17849143
    >>17849068
    It has no connection at all. I agree about the oxygen level several millions of years ago but bears are way fucking bigger than us, however they need less oxygen than us to survive. That's basically why they can survive 5 months without eating.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:43 No.17849154
    >>17848718
    >Someone hit his/her head a little: unconscious for several hours
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:43 No.17849159
    >>17849052
    >The Thebans specifically invented heavy cavalry to combat the dominant phalanx used in Greek warfare. They were specifically trained to charge massed infantry units.

    that worked so well didnt it? like when he steamrolled all of them in three years or so
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:44 No.17849177
    >>17849143
    bear big is not dinosaur big.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:46 No.17849199
    >>17849159
    trained to charge right into a sea of 7 foot long jabbing striking sarissae. What a fucking great idea.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:47 No.17849204
    ffs. cavalry and mounted knights got undue attention from scholars since the writers of the time focused on them because they were nobility and not because they were more important than infantry.

    mounted soldiers did scouting, raiding, provided quick reinforcements on the battlefield and usually did not charge into the enemy unless they outflanked them or the enemy was routing.

    infantry was more important and most knights dismounted to fight since from roman times, a solid formation will stop a cavalry charge
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:50 No.17849238
    >>17849199

    The sarissa was introduced decades after the Theban hegemony had already ended.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:50 No.17849245
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    >>17848697
    In the books it's the Ents to break the siege at Helm's Deep which makes a hell of a lot more sense.

    My issues:

    >Gallop into battle at full speed
    >Couch lance
    >About to ram that shit into an Orc at full speed
    >THROWS THE LANCE

    WHAT THE FUCK JACKSON THIS IS FUCKING RETARDED FUCK

    AND THEY DO IT IN EVERY FUCKING SCENE

    WHY

    Even worse

    >SUDDENLY OLIPHANTS
    >They're charging
    >at least 20 times the size of a horse
    >Théoden king's order
    >CHARGE

    NO fuck, no, wrong, this is fucking retarded, no, fuck you no no no no no fuck

    F- please see me, this is just wrong, no fuck you no.

    NO

    Almost all the retarded shit is Peter Jackson/Film Crew not knowing a goddamn thing about combat/tactics.

    Thank fucking christ they had John Howe there to at least give them some decent armor and making the Deeping wall concave rather than convex.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:51 No.17849253
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    >>17848697
    >Unrealistic things you hate in movies.

    No Asians guys with White girls in movies/tv shows. Very unrealistic since :

    42% of US-born Asian men are married to non-Asian (White) women.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:52 No.17849263
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    look look,
    you guys are missing the point!
    it was the magical speech before they charged that overthrew the british
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:53 No.17849270
    >>17849238
    the sarissa was a fucking dumb weapon anyway, it suited the alexander campaign only because it was a cavalry counter, after that it quickly became apparent how fucking pointless such a weapon is in any real close combat, which was proven by the roman legions with their swords fucking the phalanx up in every single major battle they had
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:54 No.17849274
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    Oh fuck...here it comes...
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:54 No.17849277
    >>17849253

    42% isn't exactly a small number. I know an Asian dude who's dating a white chick.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:54 No.17849280
    >>17849253
    "Girls in this thread..."-guy?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:54 No.17849284
    >>17849204

    this. the romans with a 3 foot sword were impervious to cavalry since they were disciplined and stayed in formation. often, they would form a line through their ranks and the horses would just go through the empty space since a horse isn't going to charge a solid mass of men stabbing it
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:55 No.17849297
    >>17849284
    the roman legions also relied heavily on speed and flanking on the field of battle though, the formations and sword played a minor role
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:55 No.17849298
    >>17849245

    this!

    a sensible commander would have pulled his troops back into the city where the elephants would have been useless and used archers to take down any that got within range
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:56 No.17849306
    >>17848898

    A movie where this is sort of the same is "Phone Booth" where the sniper works the bolt of his rifle like 20 times to show he is SUPR SRS. That was different though, because he was in a window and could have just reloaded the ammo.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:57 No.17849316
    >>17849159

    Sure, after taking and improving upon the Theban heavy cavalry, and giving them a much more central role in battle strategy.

    >>17849204

    A solid formation has never been guaranteed to stop a cavalry charge, ever. Cavalry charges were still useful until well after pikes became obsolete with the introduction of firearms.

    Cavalry is at a notable disadvantage against massed infantry in formation, but they were still used as such hundreds of times throughout history, many of them successfully.
    >> Mad King Ahab !!E1XLBIfzkU3 08/17/11(Wed)19:59 No.17849330
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    >strangle someone with a pillow or wire for 10 seconds
    >they die instantly instead of going unconscious
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:59 No.17849332
    >>17849270
    That was a lack of training and lack of flank protection. The Sarissa remained near impenetrable from the front.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)19:59 No.17849339
    >>17849297

    aye. their small independent units commanded by centurions who had free reign to reposition their troops to seize the initiative was a great factor in their success.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:01 No.17849353
    >>17848738
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzbfuI0PMdA

    Pulling a sword out of a scabbard is always fucked up in movies.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:01 No.17849354
    >>17849297

    > the romans with a 3 foot sword were impervious to cavalry since they were disciplined and stayed in formation.

    The only empires to completely resist Roman expansion did so -because- they relied solely on cavalry. Battle of Carrhae is a perfect example - the Roman army out numbered the Parthians by more than six to one, and were still completely obliterated with only minor losses for the Parthians.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:02 No.17849365
    >>17849297
    I'm probably just being obnoxious but no, the formations was a huge deal. The discipline with which the Romans kept to their formations and units allowed them to constantly replace the front line with fresh soldiers while pulling the tired ones back to rest all the while maintaining solid ranks. It also let them close and open ranks to envelop enemy units.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(military_unit)#Drill_and_fighting_formations
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:02 No.17849372
    cavalry charges were somewhat effective.

    usually the cavalry would charge at the infantry hoping their would be terrified and break before they made contact. if not, the cavalry would either stop and go chip at the edges of the formation or stop and reform.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:04 No.17849395
    >>17849354

    the romans were deep in enemy territory without water and were pelted with arrows again and again before an actual cavalry charge was made.

    their morale and discipline was gone
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:05 No.17849398
    >>17849316
    >Cavalry is at a notable disadvantage against massed infantry in formation, but they were still used as such hundreds of times throughout history, many of them successfully.

    True, but in pretty much every case that success came from the infantry breaking before the charge hit home.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:06 No.17849413
    >>17849372
    Normally a cavalry charge would come from the flank/rear and the men charging would have couched lances not swords to hit the opponent without their horse slamming into them. Then they'd keep moving, turn around and hit from another side.

    The benefit of cavalry is the enhanced mobility, cavalry can run around normal formations, disrupt movements and generally fuck shit up, they don't however run straight into unengaged walls of shields and spears. infantry
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:07 No.17849435
    >>17849413

    very true.

    cavalry was very useful, but was worthless in a frontal attack if the enemy formation didn't break and god help you if they had archers and you had an unarmored horse
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:07 No.17849436
    /tv/ - Military Tactics & Dinosaurs
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:09 No.17849445
    what i don't get in to movies is why do the infantry always try to kill the guy?

    stab the horse, it goes down and the guy will be injured and/or off his feet for a while, then you beat his head in
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:09 No.17849458
    >>17849445

    because hollywood is too chickshit to show horses or animals getting hurt
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:10 No.17849466
    >>17849395

    So what you're saying is, the Roman army was defeated because the combination of mounted archers and heavy cavalry proved too strong for them to overcome, even with six times more men?

    How exactly does that reinforce your comment that " the romans [...] were impervious to cavalry?"

    And, as a side note, the reason that the cataphract charge was so overwhelming destructive was because the Romans were forced to tighten up their formation, rather than make it looser. Your entire argument runs completely contrary to historical fact.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:11 No.17849481
    Battle of Courtrai was here. Heavy cavalry is for faggots.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:11 No.17849485
    >>17848697
    >Return of the King drove me insane with that. 6,000 Rohirrim cavalry charging into 100,000 orcs with pikemen in the front and archers in the back, it would have been a masacre.

    The orks panicked and broke rank you fucking moron. One rank of pikes and 2 of archers is not going to stop 6,000 horsemen running downhill.

    Not to mention those didn't even qualify as pikes. They were like 2 feet long and made of wood. A horse WILL run through that.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:12 No.17849491
    >>17849398

    True for many. But I can name at least a dozen examples where a cavalry unit successfully charged a mased infantry one.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:12 No.17849492
    >>17849466
    you're full of shit, those aren't fair comparisons and another thing, the parthians weren't the only ones fielding powerful cavalry - the greeks did too. as someone who prides himself on history knowledge you are quick to dismiss let alone mention the companion cavalry. how did the romans beat them, magic?

    no, it was because of what that anon said, except in parthia, and also in britain, the romans were simply ill equipped and supply lines too thin. the same reason why every campaign fails sooner or later if you dont know when to stop.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:13 No.17849505
    >>17848878
    >birds are pieces of shit that evolved from the pansiest dinosaur mulatto faggots to ever exist
    >pansiest
    >evolved
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:13 No.17849509
    >>17849491
    Please do, no use in being wrong if I don't learn from it.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:13 No.17849512
    >>17849466

    After being informed of the presence of the Parthian army, Crassus panicked. His general Cassius recommended that the army be deployed in the traditional Roman fashion, with infantry forming the center and cavalry on the wings. At first Crassus agreed, but he soon changed his mind and redeployed his men into a hollow square, each side formed by twelve cohorts.[16] This formation would protect his forces from being outflanked, but at the cost of mobility.

    ya, the romans went against their entire military doctrine and what gave them an advantage in the battlefield and lost because of it.

    big surprise
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:14 No.17849524
    >>17849505
    evolved into even sissier faggots.

    i mean, birds? REALLY?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:15 No.17849530
    Crassus was quite possibly the worst commander Rome ever had. His failure shouldn't be taken as proof of any larger flaw in the Roman system.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:15 No.17849533
    >>17849492

    They didn't specifically beat the Companian cavalry - they specifically defeated the Phalanx units that provided the backbone for the post-Alexander Greek empires. The Romans never did produce a good response to massed cavalry, as their failure against the Pathians and Sassanids.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:15 No.17849536
    Historians such as John Keegan have shown that when correctly prepared against (such as by improvising fortifications) and, especially, by standing firm in face of the onslaught, cavalry charges often failed against infantry, with horses refusing to gallop into the dense mass of enemies[1], or the charging unit itself breaking up. However, when cavalry charges succeeded, it was usually due to the defending formation breaking up (often in fear) and scattering, to be hunted down by the enemy.[2]
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:16 No.17849538
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    >>17849445
    If you ever played mount and blade man, you always go for the fucking horse. The guy had a shield and a lance and heavy armor, trying to get a kill shot in with all that in the way is a bitch.

    The horse has a huge head with eyes like big well bull's eyes just screaming shoot me in the face I'm a huurrrrse
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:17 No.17849551
    Cavalry were an absolute necessity even with firearms in the nineteenth century.

    If you didn't have cavalry, the opposition's cavalry would make a terminal fucking mess of infantry ranks. That's where the British square came from.
    Attack with cavalry, square forms, shoot at square with cannon/harass square with cavalry raids. Many redcoats were heard to bitch about their own cavalry being absent from the scene, as they were cut down with sabres.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:18 No.17849571
    >>17849538

    dude, no way!

    i love that game. ya, i always go for the horse since it's a bitch to catch up to enemies on fast horses.

    i'm looking at you, Khergit Khanate
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:18 No.17849578
    >>17849512

    Specifically because their usual formation was ill-equipped to face an army solely comprised of cavalry.

    You seem intent on proving my point for me. The Roman military doctrine was awful against massed cavalry, and they were hardly " impervious to cavalry."
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:19 No.17849583
    >>17849551
    No one is disputing the importance of cavalry, just the efficiency of head on charges.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:20 No.17849607
    i think someone should send this to mythbusters.

    just get a bunch of guys in plate armor and on horses charge a 5 deep row of dummies with shields and or pikes and see what happens
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:21 No.17849627
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    Why didn't the eagles just fly the horses over the orcs and drop them?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:21 No.17849628
    >>17849578
    They didn't use their usual formation. You can't claim it as proof their usual formation was ill-equipped.
    >> Everymans !/EDCBA9rUg 08/17/11(Wed)20:21 No.17849632
    >Jurassic park 2 and 3
    Why leave an incredibly dangerous island left alone with no protection or sensors. People can just waltz right onto a dino filled island eh? And why would not study the dinos from a far?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:22 No.17849641
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    >>17849551
    >>17849538
    >Faggots play a video game
    >Suddenly they're medieval military experts who criticize movies because they think they know better than millionaire film makers who hire actual medieval military experts to help them make the movie

    Yea, this thread just showed it's true face.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:22 No.17849643
    >>17849607
    But the horseys will get hurted
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:23 No.17849655
    >>17849643

    it's for science
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:23 No.17849661
    >>17849641
    >2011
    >implying "actual medieval military experts" aren't fantasizing faggots too
    >> Sad Doctor !7w8a5jwSBg 08/17/11(Wed)20:24 No.17849667
    Cavalry's effectiveness, and the infantry counter to their tactics, depends a lot on exactly what time you're fighting in.

    One thing that's generally true of most eras up the 1700s is cavalry tends to know what they're doing, and infantry tends to be conscripted grunts who don't. Even so, Cavalry would usually use their superior mobility to flank the enemy and charge them down, which tended to break morale and immediately end the battle. Most battles were usually not terribly bloody by the standards of more modern set-piece conflicts, the two sides would clash, and whoever broke first lost. Since there's no radios or other forms of efficient communication, if your army breaks and runs off it's a matter of weeks or even months before you're able to form a fighting force again, by which point the war is probably already lost.

    By the later medieval era the lance had been developed, which allowed armored knights to attack from any direction. Since the lance was counterbalanced and used from horseback, it could stretch beyond the infantry spears and halberds. Lancers could charge a line and usually the front line will simply break before they ever get there. Heavy cavalry were armed with larger and larger lances, eschewing other arms, so that they could charge in, hit with the lance, and then wheel around and hit again, avoiding getting stuck in. Meanwhile light cavalry carried light spears or cavalry swords, and were designed for closer-in fighting, as well as harrying the flanks and chasing down retreating units.

    The real kings of the battlefield were often the archers. Cavalry was often more focused on preemptively killing the enemy archers rather than charging into solid lines of infantry. Archers could kill infantry far faster and at less cost anyway.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:24 No.17849669
    >>17849641
    >faggots read books
    >suddenly they know more than me
    >must insult them and post a reaction face

    FTFY
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:24 No.17849677
    >>17849641
    >One guy makes a humorous prallel to a videogame
    >This invalidates the rest of the thread
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:25 No.17849688
    >>17849628

    I can't count it as the sole piece of proof. But I can count the entire Parthian campaign, as well as the Sassanid campiagn, as proof of that. They were defeated again and again by mass cavalry units, both in their usual formation and in ad-hoc ones. The problem was their entire military system - it was designed to fight either organized but immobile infantry (phalanxes) or loosely organized but mobile infantry (gauls, germans). When it faced highly mobile, organized, and armored cavalry supported by mobile horse archers, the system simply couldn't cope.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:26 No.17849710
    >>17849667
    Lances don't hold up long, they aren't for repeated use.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:27 No.17849720
    >seen a horse in real life

    ruwizard.bat
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:27 No.17849726
    They were horses by horsemen, from the land of horses, Rohan. Of course they are the bravest/strongest on the planet.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:27 No.17849727
    >>17849641

    Actually, you fail on two counts.
    1. I've never played a strategy game in my life. Outside of Risk twenty years ago.
    2. I was talking about the 19th Century, and CAVALRY, not medieval anything.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:28 No.17849731
    >>17849710

    Don't confuse tournament lances with combat lances. Combat lances broke far less frequently than tournament lances.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:28 No.17849748
    >>17849688
    aaaaaaaand here we go

    you're making it sounds exactly as if the romans only ever won battles if their opponents were dipshits in weak armour with no idea of battle.

    protip those phalanx butchered parthians (descendants of persians) a hundred years before

    grats on discrediting yourself.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:29 No.17849755
    >>17849710
    It was typical to leave the lance in the dude you stuck and ride off. Lances are cheap compared to horses and armor.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:30 No.17849762
    >>17849688
    I can't disagree, mounted archers were one hell of a problem. I don't see that there was an effective counter. I do think that without missile cavalrdy the Roman formation would stand up far bettee, unless of course you have a contrary example.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:32 No.17849801
         File1313627553.jpg-(50 KB, 634x423, article-1351018-02F5F023000004(...).jpg)
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    >>17849710
    >I saw a joust at a medieval fair once
    >Medieval combat expert
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:32 No.17849802
         File1313627556.jpg-(15 KB, 220x165, 220px-Husitsky_bojovy_vuz_repl(...).jpg)
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    >>17849762

    this is the counter

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laager
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:32 No.17849804
    >>17849731
    It's not the breaking, it's the being stuck in 100+ pounds of flesh.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:34 No.17849829
    >>17849748

    I never said anything of the sort. I said that the Romans specifically designed their military doctrine to combat the local threats, which were overwhelmingly in the form of infantry of various levels of organization. Massed cavalry armies were entirely outside of the realm of their understanding, and their doctrine simply couldn't cope with it.

    Protip: The Persians didn't use cavalry to anywhere near the extent the Parthians did. In addition, much of the Greek victory was because their revolutionary usage of heavy cavalry, something the Parthians adopted and improved upon.

    Try to keep up with the argument, you're just embarrassing yourself at the moment.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:35 No.17849840
    >>17849801
    Did I claim to be an expert? No. I was merely stating something I thought to be true, entirely open to the possibility I could be wrong.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:35 No.17849848
    >>17849667

    You are correct. In England we still lol heartily at the thought of all those heavily armoured French knights under 9000 longbow arrows at Agincourt.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:36 No.17849860
         File1313627810.jpg-(31 KB, 695x522, -british-cavalry-lance-1868-pa(...).jpg)
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    >>17849804
    The shape of the cavalry lance was designed so it didn't get stuck.

    That shit went in, and came right out.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:37 No.17849871
    >>17849848

    do you lol heartily on the battle of hastings where the french took over england?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:38 No.17849880
    >>17849762

    No, that's definitely true. Both cataphracts and mounted archers were necessary - the archers to force the Roman troops into tighter formations, and the cataphracts to break those formations.

    If either one wasn't there, you'd be in for a tough battle.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:38 No.17849885
    >>17849860

    >stab a guy with a 7 foot lance
    >3 feet of it is in the guy
    >don't mind me, it'll come out easily
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:39 No.17849905
    >>17849860
    >pointy stick
    >IMMACULATELY CRAFTED
    this is what europhiles actually believe
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:40 No.17849914
    >>17849848
    The Longbow was barely a factor in that victory, the formation of English forces, the fractured French force made up of many different nobles, the geography and weather conditions and the melee flanking action of bowmen were all far greater factors.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:42 No.17849944
    >>17849871

    Not really, but that was a long time ago. We got over that one quite easily, what with saving France's ass in WW1, the sequel, and that whole Waterloo thing.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:42 No.17849948
    >>17849885
    Where are you impaling this guy that you get 3 feet of your lance stuck in him?

    I didn't think these guys bent over to take lances up the ass often.

    Either way you're being retarded since the shape of the lance is what makes it's easy to pull back out, the head is small and devoid of any back facing points to hook it in the flesh but still slightly thicker than the shaft as it would penetrate it would push apart the flesh making the trip back out easier.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:44 No.17849975
    >>17849871
    You realize that would mean today's Brits are actually French, which would make them quite happy their ancestors won at Hastings?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:46 No.17850001
    >>17849871
    protip the british back then were anglosaxons, which is not what we refer to as british today. anglosaxons are really just vikings so to speak.

    in a way, britain was the small united states at the time - it became a mixture of different european races (since there never were any real ones there before it was invaded by continental races)
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:46 No.17850006
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    Your western tactics, armor and strategy is inferior.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:48 No.17850033
    >>17849948

    If you stab someone with a lance on horseback, you would have to then walk backwards or turn around to pull the lance out. Otherwise your only option is to let go of the lance.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:48 No.17850034
    >>17848790
    >Wow horses are a pretty rare and elusive creature.

    Fucking lol'd, thank you.

    Also, did nobody mention the fact that Gandalf temporarily blinded the spearmen with his magic fucking light? If the lower their spears the horsies can fuck 'em up good, and once they've broken through the formation they can do whatever the fuck they want.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:48 No.17850035
    >>17849948
    You're moving at speed, you can't stop, reverse and pull it out you have to keep moving forward. How does it slide out if you're still moving forward? Genuinely interested.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:49 No.17850056
    >>17850034

    helms deep != pelennor fields
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:50 No.17850071
    What?

    So the thousands of arrows from 7000 archers that pounded the french armour were irrelevant?

    The arrows slowed the knights down, fucked up the terrain even more and totally exhausted them.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:51 No.17850089
         File1313628673.jpg-(7 KB, 251x181, 1312687145417s.jpg)
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    >>17850071

    >arrows
    >fucked up the terrain
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:55 No.17850159
    >>17850071
    Not irrelevant, but they weren't the super weapon which many seem to think. They had a role but it was no bigger than any other factor, they were less important than the French drive toward the English centre and the funnel the English created, for instance.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:55 No.17850165
    >>17850089

    Yes, when you fire a thousand arrows a second, it kind of makes it hard to walk through in heavy armour.

    Read a book. Or just think.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:56 No.17850167
    >>17850089
    You know nothing Jon Snow. An archer shoots arrows in an arch, which mean they hit the ground vertically. Thus any arrow that doesn't hit a dude or his horse will be sticking out of the dirt and fuck up this horses' feet when they charge.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)20:57 No.17850185
         File1313629036.jpg-(97 KB, 636x507, holender++kopijnik1[1]..jpg)
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    >>17850035
    >>17850033
    Normally after you lanced the guy you'd have enough room to pull your arm back and recover it. If you were perhaps unskilled and allowed your horse to keep moving after you impaled the guy you could always have the horse take a few steps back.

    Now lets also say you went full speed and slammed into your target and lost your lance, the force of the blow would likely knock your opponent over with the lance sticking out of his back, at which point you could casually trot over there and recover it.

    Contrary to popular belief you can train a horse and it can go in more than one direction.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:03 No.17850274
    >>17850159

    True, the arrows didn't cause many direct deaths, but they had a horrible effect on battle fitness, french had to put their visors down and muddy arrow filled shit ground with no oxygen. They were
    half dead by the time they reached english lines.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:07 No.17850327
    >>17850274
    That I can't disagree with, there is a considerable difference between advancing through muddy terrain unchallenged and doing it with arrows raining down, even if those arrows kill, relatively, few.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:08 No.17850330
    the muddy terrain and the bottleneck the french had to go through is what did them in.

    also, arrows didn't penetrate plate armor, but it sure wasn't fun to get pelted with them
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:10 No.17850367
    >>17850330
    The grand failure of the French was that they didn't NEED to push through the bottleneck but conscripted peasantry was worth little to nothing.
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:21 No.17850513
    why did aragorn transport the ghosts on ships?

    why not just have them float their way to minas tirith and kill the orc army before the attack?

    it would have saved thousands of human lives
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:27 No.17850578
    >>17850513
    Why did you attempt to troll a thread in which nobody actually gives a damn about LOTR?
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:28 No.17850595
    >>17850578

    >no one gives a damn about LOTR

    mustbenewhere.jpg
    >> Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:36 No.17850695
    >>17850595
    >in this thread
    >> derp.jpg Anonymous 08/17/11(Wed)21:41 No.17850748
    WHY DIDNT GANDALF JUST SPAM MAGIC MISSILE DURING EVERY MAJOR BATTLE? CLEARLY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUPER EFFECTIVE AGAINST DARK/ZOMBIE/ORC RACES, SINCE HES CASTING IT AT THE DARKNESS



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