Then post Shadowrun instead of 4e.

>>9432952
>Implying change is a bad thing.

Yeah, so from what I gather, the oldfags are like
"WHAAAAA! I dun wanna wireless! I want 80's cyberpunk back! Everything was better in the 80's!"

So they want to play with telephones and shit.

I dunno why.

>>9433204
That's what I've gathered. Some parts of the 80's were awesome, like Mr. T and MTV actually playing music videos, but the technology sucked thirty-seven flavors of dick.

See also: Pic.

Bumpan with cybernetics. I, unfortunately, lack the reserves for a prolonged imagedump.

The problem with wireless is, it seems to dilute the archetypes a bit. Now that EVERYBODY IS INTERNET ALL THE TIME the hacker isn't the custodian of some mysterious realm anymore. Also, it's hard to stay away from it even if you want to. Got cyberware? I haxors you into suicide. Oh, turning your network off to be safe? The fact that you're not broadcasting (and vulnerable) trips off the local security that obviously you're up to no good, because if you'd not doing anything wrong what do you care about privacy, right citizen? (cue modern day analogies here).

Whereas the Matrix used to be a hazardous place only the skilled dared venture to, now it comes to you. All the time. Everywhere. The gazebo is angry, and it followed you home.

>>9433414

I have never played Shadowrun before, but I see no problem with this.

>>9433414
>Whereas the internet used to be a hazardous place only the skilled dared venture to, now it comes to you. All the time. Everywhere.

Drawing comparisons with greentext ITT. Sure, everyone CAN use the matrix now, but that doesn't mean that everyone can, say, slip into a secure server without setting off alarms, fight Black IC without frying their brains, or punt a rigger out of the drone he's controlling.

>>9433414
I don't agree. While our generation is certainly embracing technology to the point of near ubiquity, there's still the huge divide between the users and the hackers: those who actually know how the system works... and more importantly, how to manipulate it.

>>9433204

That's the feeling I get to. And don't get me wrong, there's a lot to love about that aesthetic. Just spent much of last night watching the original Bubblegum Crisis and shit was distinctively cash. That said, there's a difference between drawing on and paying homage to that aesthetic, which I think SR4 can do quite nicely, and being chained to it.


As far as OP's topic goes, I did a number on my players with one particular run in Emergence.

Basically, the PCs were ostensibly hired by someone our anti-techno PC, a Black Muslim gunslinger chick with jihadist leanings, knew, a Renraku suit, to test the security at one of their facilities. Basically, no lethal damage to corporate security, but otherwise do whatever they need to do to get the file.

The real goal, though....

>>9433414
>Now that EVERYBODY IS INTERNET ALL THE TIME the hacker isn't the custodian of some mysterious realm anymore.
Except for the hacking bit. If you want to google bob's bait shop emporium, you can do that. If you want the blueprints of his shop, you'll have to hack the city records or something.
The only difference now is that the hacker can do it while the gun-bunny is laying down suppressive fire on Bob instead of having to run over the the god damned telephone.

Also, why the fuck was the internet supposed to be "Mystical special land" accessible by only an elite few, when EVERYONE used it, even down the bob and his bait shop?

>Got cyberware? I haxors you into suicide
Only if you got a cranial bomb for some reason. Now, you can go deaf, blind, and lame, but actual suicide? But this shit takes time, and if you went in without any sort of Matrix defense, against a hacker, you're an idiot, or the DM is a dick.

>Oh, turning your network off to be safe? The fact that you're not broadcasting (and vulnerable) trips off the local security that obviously you're up to no good, because if you'd not doing anything wrong what do you care about privacy, right citizen?
And you don't bring an uzi into the posh restaurant. Hacking, btw, is also illegal and lonestar "should" help you against a hacking attempt. But if you REALLY need to simultaneously appear to be perfectly legit AND protect yourself from intrusion, just buy a second commlink.

It's not rocket science.


>Whereas the Matrix used to be a hazardous place only the skilled dared venture to
It's the fucking internet. Everyone goes there all the time. From the teenyboppers to the corperate elite. If that wasn't true then it wouldn't ever fucking be used for anything. Again, see HACKING.

>>9433518
>>9433517
>>9433439
ILU. Have some inspiration for corpsec.

Lol. I remember this one campaign I played. I set up this front company called Catalyst, looking to make some quick cash. Luck would have it that some B-list game IP came available and I snatched that shit up, thinking it would pay overhead for the corp while I looked for a real mark.

Holy shit, I underestimated the fanaticism of the demographic attached to this shitheap. I didn't have many points in the stuff needed to actually run a corp, even a sham like this, but it all fell into place for me. All I had to do was reprint the info already put together by the company that dumped the IP and I was making nuyen hand over fist. Best part, I was careful to hire some of these mouthbreathers into the company, making sure their idealism far outweighed their business sense. I could do what the fuck I want, so long as I prefaced the plan with 'for the good of the game'. Fuck yeah playing a Face type.

A few creds in the right pockets over in accounting, a contact here and there who knew what was up, and the rest was straight scrub-level hacker shit. In the end I walked away with eight HUNDRED THOUSAND nuyen, and all the dumbasses could figure out was 'my personal funds had gotten intermingled with the company funds'. Shit was so certified credstick.

Was to determine if the team had any technomancers on it. So the whole facility was basically scanning them for technomancer abilities.

The last room is what really had them spooked. The terminal they were supposed to get the data from had a really short Signal range, and the transceiver was underwater. In a pool of electric eels. They were essentially biodrones being used to scan the PCs bioelectric fields. All the PCs could tell is there were some fish or something in the darkened pool, and they were clearly thinking they were about to be electrocuted. So they got well and truly panicked when the eels did nothing but swim around them.

Long story short, they had no technos, so it worked out, and the Renraku Johnson actually spilled the beans to let them know that's what it was. He had a distinctly ideological take on the whole techno thing (memories of the Arcology incident); he actually believes in the anti-techno movement, as opposed to just going through the motions.

>>9433558
You're awesome too. Have a handgun.

>>9433579
Well played, sir.

>>9433607
Moar?

Don't got any "just as planed" but, have a rather nicely pimped Van.

Slots mods use noted in () in mod pricing

GMC Bulldog Step-Van.
Van: 35,000Y
Mods: Additional Fuel Tank, Amenities(High), Manual Control Override(Drive-by-Wire), Oil Slick Sprayer, Rigger Adaptation, Rigger Cocoon: basic, Satellite Communication, Smoke Projector, Valkyrie Module, Winch, Standard, Workshop
Mod slots used:12 Slots open:6
Mod Costs: Additional Fuel Tank(1): 1,000Y, Amenities(2): 1,000Y, MCO(1): 500Y, Oil Slick Sprayer(1): 500Y, Rigger Adaptation(1): 2,500Y, Rigger Cocoon, basic(1): 1,500Y, Sat-Comm(1): 500Y, Smoke Projector(1): 700Y, Valkyrie Module(2): 2,000Y, Winch, Standard(1): 600Y, Workshop(1): 10,000Y
Total cost: 55,800Y

honestly, I want to play a low-life shadowrun game. Street-gangers with 200-300BP and all gear costs double.

I proposed it to the group and they scoffed at me about cutting out the best part of the game. meh

>>9433414

It's called using a second 'link not linked into your main PAN, dude.

Fuck it. General Shadowrun Thread.

So all your experienced runners, what should I spend my extra cash on in chargen? I don't get to keep it, but I'm a face adept, so I don't really need all that much gear. I've already got a vehicle, several guns w/ upgrades and ammo, some random tech stuff, and assorted gear(lights, wire cutters, restraints, gas mask, fake liscences). I still have a bit over 300 nuyen left to get to a multiple of 5000.

>>9433712
Uh... Shanker...
We kinda wanted to ride in the van too. Tom's a big guy, we're not friendly in that sort of way and there's only one space left to sit...

>>9433733

Gear costs double? no fucking wonder.

>>9433772

It removes no seating. It still holds 6+ people.

>>9433747
Do you have a gun? Does it have ammunition?

>>9433204
People who don't like the new one don't like that things advance and change - they want the 'old skool flava' back, even though it's still there, just different.

>>9433414
Turn your wireless off, or get skinlinks. Get a good firewall. Keep a second commlink broadcasting that isn't linked to any of your shit.

>>9433747

Just pay as much as you can into lifestyle, or ammo. A rating 6 medkit is always, always useful if you're not a mage. Or put the extra money into your SIN to bump it up a rating.

>>9433795
Adurp. DISREGARD THAT. I SUCK COCKS.

>>9433733
Keep the BP restriction, ditch the gear cost. Jesus, what were you thinking with that?

>>9433747
Grenades. I've never gone wrong with grenades. Under-armor is a good idea, if cheezy. It's in the Arsenal.

And if spare cash is your problem, may I suggest some form of extra initative pass. Bioware to save your essence. Expensive as all fuck though.

>>9433773
>>9433823
It's expensive being poor.

But how many gangers should have delta-grade bioware? They should fret about the cost of a HAND GUN, not wonder how many rockets to buy.

>>9433819
As far as the second commlink thing goes, there's disposables listed in Unwired. Sure they're only good for a week, but I figure you can buy one and activate it when you need it.

loved the sega genesis game but thats where shadowrun ends for me

>>9433790

Hell, looking at it, you can fit MORE stuff into it, without ripping any seating out.

Still got 6 mod slots empty.

>>9433871
...You are aware that the RAW gear limits are "Nothing with an availability higher than 12, no 'ware better than alpha grade", right? All you have to do after that is disallow the Restricted Gear quality from Runner's Companion if you don't want some jackass buying a move-by-wire rig.

>>9433879

I'm talking about people bitching that the authorities know when you are not broadcasting in certain zones. If they don't like it, carry a second commlink, or live in the barrens with your thumb in your arse.

>>9433871

Uh....it says in the book, at start, you get noting better the alpha.

>>9433941
Which is why I brought up the disposable commlinks. You don't have to maintain two entire identities, just budget some cred for a string of disposables and pay for them out of certified sticks.

Oye, so as a shadowrun DM, I've got the problem with either completely screwing over my party or tailoring runs to the characters. So of course, I tailor. If they don't have a hacker, they don't get hacker jobs. Fixers and Johnsons know this.

But it's kinda a pain to tailor, and I have some runs that never get used. So I have this idea, lemme run it past you.

The characters are part of a guild/group/team/mercenary company. Every player makes 5 characters or something. I tell them to be varied. Gunners, hackers, astral folk, faces, all that normal jazz, but also prime runners who need 10,000Y to justify getting off their ass and gangers who will leap at 200Y. When a mission comes in, each player selects a character to use for the mission. With a bigger pool of runners, I can put forward any type of mission I want.

If they don't play a character, it's assumed that they go earn 75% of their upkeep. So they don't waste away, but need to be played now and then.

>>9433959

You seem to be failing to realise the point. You don't maintain identities. You have one commlink that has the required things on it, and if you must use wireless enabled cyberware (or to program nanohives) it goes through that, and remains in hidden mode. The secondary commlink is a broadcasting public identity. And you need to broadcast a SIN in most zones anyway or it tends to end with the player being arrested.

>>9433997

Exactly. I tend to keep a high-grade internal 'link, and a cheap ass one, that I use for non-important things.

>>9433997
Ahhh. Okay, now I see where you're coming from.

>>9433981
Could be interesting. Continue?

>>9433747

Make sure you've got all the basics. Got your RFID tag erasers? Or how about a white phosphorus grenade or two for when shit hits the fan? If you're a face, have you considered a nanopaste disguise, or maybe even just a set of nice clothes?

>>9433951
>>9433908
yeah, alright. Ok, how about a wired reflexes. That a better example?

But the general idea is that poor gangers shouldn't have the gear that prime runners do. Part of that is taken into account with the BP, but someone is going to use all their cash on something.

Not letting them get restricted gear is a good idea. Actually, yeah, that would probably do it. That cuts out like, hell, anything illegal-worthy...

>>9433981

Some people might like it, but I'd worry it'd detract from the character development a single character might get story-wise. But my group has much more of an RP focus than a lot of SR groups, so this isn't necessarily something everyone will care so much about.

>>9432943
Okay. I play 40k and DND, and probably a few other things that belong on here. But I know of shadowrun only by name. And I'm kinda interested, can someone give me a run down, I'd love to learn about it?

>>9434046

To be honest, I kind of figure that by 2070 a lot of things, like WR, might be filtering down to the lower rungs of society much more so than in earlier editions. That is to say, it may very well be reasonable for a low-end ganger to have a cheapass wired reflexes implantation.

>>9434075

It's..complicated. The world was for the most part, the same, until December 24, 2012.

Then magic came back into the world.

>>9434028
well, that's pretty much it. I haven't done it yet. If it's an idea that would end in hellfire, it'd be nice to know now.

Maybe give them a home-base. Brick and mortar store with extra mortar rounds in back. Accountants, secretaries, a warehouse, sewer entrance, emergency bunks. The low-level characters would be local gangers or something.

>>9434046
Availability doesn't take into account if a piece of gear is Restricted (12R) or Forbidden (12F). Most criminals, runners included, don't give a damn about something's legality as long as they can get a fake license or hide it really well. Remember: The higher the number, the harder it is to find. R gets you funny looks from cops if your fake license is up to snuff, F gets you prisonraped.

Restricted Gear is a 5BP quality that lets a player purchase anything with an availability rating up to 20. Think about jiggering around the RAW availability cap a bit, you'll probably find a happy medium.

>>9434106
Okay, thats a good enough explenation. I'll look into it further. I onced played a d20 game like that, was awesome. With rules designed about it, should be awesome.

>>9434037
How important are disguises and nice clothes? I guess if you designed your character for that, they're nice. I tailored my guy to be more of a criminal type. Good at negotiating and doing legwork. And then shooting people in the face. Rather than the classic face who's filthy rich, high class and cybered up to be beautiful, I made my character around making deals with gangs and tricking and picking up chicks in bars who happen to have access to the places we need to be.

>>9434075

Basically, it's a mix of cyberpunk and urban fantasy. Magic comes back to its full strength or whatever around 2012, and people start turning into dwarves and orks and shit. Native American shamans use magical hax powers to take back about half the continent, among other political turmoil. The world rolls on and corporations get more powerful. Globalization increases and the Internet becomes the virtual-reality Matrix (SR's use of the term predates the movies').

By 2070, the biggest ten megacorps are each more powerful than most nation-states. The class divide is much wider, with vast slums in even the First World, where elf and ork gangs clash over the scraps. Meanwhile, the corporate and mob bosses sit high on their earnings.

You're basically a deniable troubleshooter that corps and other outfits hire to steal, assassinate and do all sorts of things. Just don't get caught, or they'll say they never met you. And try not to get stabbed in the back too much.

TL:DR; Think like, Blade Runner with elves and wizards and shit.

>>9434106
Then people started turning into elves, dwarves, orks, and trolls. Then dragons appeared. It gets complicated.

>>9434107
It sounds reasonable to me. As for a base, maybe the basement of a Stuffer Shack with room for gear and a couple of beds. Anyone who's not on a job is playing lookout or actually working. How's that?

>>9434016
Obviously you don't, since you're yammering on about using disposables and not maintaining identities. Play a game and come back.

>>9434157

Then it may not matter as much. But it might be useful to be able to play the part of a bigshot if you need to.

Also may depend a lot on setting. If you're running in Lagos, there basically aren't a lot of rich people, so it's not the world's best disguise, you know? But in LA it could be a lifesaver.

>>9434173
>implying I'm Shanker

>>9434186
I think we're playing in Denver, which I know nothing about. It's fine for background purposes, because we're supposed to be new to the city, but I might be unprepared.

>>9433414

Use one Commlink with a skinlink to control your smartgun, etc that doesn't have any wireless functionality at all. Suddenly all your shit that matters is completely unhackable.
Use another Commlink to broadcast your sin and such so the pigs don't harass you, and set it to passive. Slave it to another Commlink without wireless functionality so that its completely unhackable.
Finally grab a new commlink every mission for team communications.

All wireless security problems are completely solvable. Which begs the question why everyone in the world doesn't solve them. In my games, there is no wireless hacking-you have to physically compromise a system to get into it.
Which makes the entire reason they created the wireless matrix-to make sure the decker has to come along and can't sit in the van-moot.
I always played SR2/3 this way too. I never had a problem with deckers sitting at home hacking the planet.

Also, everyone being connecting to the internet 24/7 goes all the way back to Neuromancer, and it already existed in SR by virtue of the ever-present pocket secretary.

All of the fluff changes to SR4 were cosmetic ones, in a poorly thought out attempt to 'modernize' a game that takes place in an alternate history.

So for Ganger-land, starting without any restricted gear we're looking at a vastly reduced gear list:
knife, club, bow, light crossbow, taser, squirt-gun, flash-pack, decent armor at least, some cyberware, but not wired reflexes or bone lacing.

NO firearms of any sort, no hacking software, no fake SINs (so barrens it is).

Of course, I think I'd swap out that quality that let's them buy 1 accessibility 20 item for letting them guy an accessibility 12R item. But just one.

I'd give them a free drug dealer contact with jobs available. I would let them get a proper fixer, as they're not really shadow runners. So starting out they'd have to rob liquor stores, mug factory workers and whatnot.

I think I'd enjoy this. Does this make me a bad person?

>>9434220

Denver is like post-WWII Berlin. It's a divided city and expect to be going through checkpoints all the fuckin' time. There's a Pueblo sector, a CAS (Southern) sector, and a UCAS (Americanadian) sector. Also, smuggling is rampant.

>>9434227

OK, I've admittedly been taking a bit of a rolling pin to historical inconsistencies, trying to smooth things out, rather than embracing the alternate history thing wholeheartedly. I guess I feel like, part of the point of talking about the "future" is that we're talking about our future. Cyberpunk themes need to ring alarm bells about OUR world and OUR future.

And a wireless-free setting like SR2/3 feels remarkably retro-tech. Which is fine if you like that, but it's jarring otherwise. Granted, I don't know how to Internet to save my life, so "wireless security issues are completely solvable" means little to me.

>>9434308
You appear to be misunderstanding Availability.

The RAW limit of Availability 12 allows a player to purchase anything with any legality (that's the R or F stuff) up to an availability rating of 12. So you could purchase, say, an Ares Alpha assault rifle at character gen, provided you have the 1,700¥ required to pay for it. However, because it's also a Forbidden weapon, the police are going to sodomize you if they catch you with it. If you purchase an AK-97 or an FN HAR instead, both of which are Restricted, all you need is a good enough fake license keyed to your fake ID to avoid prisonrape

The Restricted Gear quality allows a player to purchase one item of any legality up to an availability rating of 20 for each time they take the quality, up to three times. This means that a player with Restricted Gear can purchase a Panther XXL assault cannon, provided they can pay for it. Getting ammo will be a problem, given how it has an availability rating of 16, and of course if you get caught with it *or* the ammo for it, you'll be in for a long stay at Prostate Exams R Us.

Remember: Number = How hard it is to find. R = You'll get beat if your license doesn't pass muster with the cops. F = One-way ticket to a Rodney King beatdown if the cops know you have it.

>>9434162

Also, Dragons.

>>9434436
Do you know anything about the CAS, specifically Atlanta? I'm a Georgia boy, and was thinking of having my guy be from there, just for fun.

>>9434308

>No firearms

The fuck? Everyone packs, in Shadowrun. Including Grandma.

>>9434498

Uhhh not offhand. But download Shadows of North America (pretty sure it's on rs). That has a whole writeup on the CAS, even if it is a little dated (3E).

>>9434563
Especially grandma. In fact, her wheelchair's a drone in its own right, and it has a concealed machine pistol of its own.

>>9434609

Right. A standard light pistol has a 3 in availability.

You can get a CAMERA for 3 availability.

>>9434563

Indeed it was a running joke in previous editions that used Ares Preds were so common that you'd get them as the free gift in cerial boxes.

>>9434436

I'm referring to game mechanics from Unwired. If you slave device A to device B, A can't be hacked because A will only take commands from B.

Using this mechanic, you enter a situation where anyone can make PANs and networks of any size that are immune to hacking except on the device that all the others are slaved too.

If you remove the wireless capabilities of the device everything is slaved to, then connect it with wires to everything you need, you then have a network that can't be wirelessly hacked.
The slaved devices can use wireless without compromising the security of the network.

For Corps, this means that perfect security is creating such a network and then fortifying the device everything is slaved too. Then your employees can enjoy the benefits of wireless (via slaved devices) without compromising any security.

For Shadowrunners, this means that to hack into a system entails physically gaining access to the device everything is slaved to, which can be hacked as normal if you jack into it.

For the average guy on the street, it means that total PAN security is possible by slaving all his devices to one non-wireless device.

Heres a diagram.

>>9434950
...I like you.

>>9434950

But wait, can't you just spoof the ID of device B?

>>9434950
>unhackable because it will only accept commands from device A
Congratulations, you know the STANDARD BEHAVIOR of wireless technology.

Making sure it only accepts commands from device A is actually the part where wireless security comes into play.

But yeah, in SR4 rules, this works. But the software engineer in me just cringes.

>>9435057
No, device B only passes on the accessID of device A.

This is what tracer tags and spy-flies are for.

>>9435057
You could always skinlink everything.

>>9434898

Ah, in nice pastel colors?

>>9435163

>But the software engineer in me just cringes.

this is the norm in Shadowrun matrix explanations.

>>9435295

That's been my understanding. I don't think this is an edition issue. For whatever reason, SR's Matrix involves more magic than the actual magic does.

>>9435057

Yes, kind of. While technically possible even with slaving, slaving makes the procedure much harder since you either have to hack into each slave individually or physically compromise them individually.
And with every connection attempt brought to the attention of the Master device, it becomes nearly impossible to successfully hack a slave since the person in charge of the PAN will set the device to passive mode, turn it off, sent goons to come rape you etc.

Here are the rules specifically.

>>9434950

This makes sort of sense to me on a small scale, like say using it give each guard a secure commlink or such, but I'm trying to imagine it on a corporate facility scale because I'd assume you mean device A would be say their main security node physically located where their security rigger/hacker is at and completely wired then connected to a second wireless node to which the whole security force (or even work force though I imagine you'd have separate slaved nodes for this) then operates through, each slaved to the original security node.

However, this presents a problem for me, on larger scales, as I'd have thought slaved devices ONLY receive commands from the device they are slaved too and would be highly limited in what they could individually do. It's one thing to slave a commlink you use in public to a off-line 0 range commlink and do all your operations through that, but on a corporate scale of giving slaved devices to your workers I'd imagine they'd need to be able to edit information as part of their jobs and have a measure of control. Couldn't you then just gain access to one of these devices and be on the network, or possibly even spoof yourself onto the network? After that it would depend on whether device A can receive as well as send, if it only commands device B then it's secure from that way as you'd set it not to accept any information from B, but B would still be compromised.

>>9435788

Maybe I'm just missing the point, it's not like I'm a software engineer or have even read the rules from Wired (though I have read the other source books) but I imagine to use it for anything other then say, security communications work where A could provide them with connections and data as needed from all slaved devices, you'd have to have a node where they could edit information as part of their work and then upload the backup at some time to device A once the work day is done. The fact they can edit information alone would leave security liabilities or so I would think. Not to mention I always got the idea that Shadowrun's spoof program was meant to be able to replicate the kind of messages that device A gives, but doesn't explain the science behind it because it's science fiction.

>>9435476

Reading this, you could only really have a situation where all communications to the slave devices given to the corporate employees would be through the master node as they wouldn't be able to communicate to each other, if they could it wouldn't really be a slave set up as the others could interact and present a security risk.

In of itself this presents a bit of a risk, the original device A would have to accept information from all slaved devices, sure such a method is dangerous for the hacker, but because slaved devices are attached to the master, you'd be in a very nice position if you hack through to it and gain control. The set up couldn't work without this risk either, as it would defeat the purpose of slaving them.

Say you slaved a network to A which then itself (B) would have slaves who would communicate through it's own network, then you could still just compromise B and mess up all those slaves without touching A.

One thing that makes me laugh is the whole 'everyone always uses the internet and has cyberware' thing.

Some classes are strongly inhibited by having cyber-ANYTHINGS.

Shit one time I rolled a elf mage veitnam vertrem with gremlins just to tell all the tech stuff to go fuck itself.

Shit got even funnier when I hooked up with the hacker chick in the party, as she was about 35% robot.

>>9433712
You call that a van? My group once had a van blimp.

Me, one of the players and the GM were looking through shadowrun books when I saw the helium balloon attachment for vehicles. I mentioned this to the other two and we started working. I forget the exact specs but in the end we had the helium blimp, we had cabin pressurization, we have jato rockets for propulsion, we had a small med robot thing, gun ports (my sniper kicked royal ass in it), a huge bucket of bullets, extra armor, flares to divert missile attacks, a piloting cocoon, and air-to-air missile launcher. It took all of our groups money and we didn't tell the owner of the van about it until we told him to press the new red button on his dashboard. We all gained reputation when we unleashed its power

>>9436032

This is true. My group tends towards the magical and their idea of Internet security is not to use it. The gypsy sorceress we had for a while lived in the park and had basically no technology except for a twenty year old cyberdeck she used as an answering machine.

>>9436082
...That is thirty-one flavors of awesome.

>>9436032

>Class

There are no classes, bro.

>>9436082

Far too obvious. That kind of thing is what Hornets are for.

>>9436032

it's more like the GitS 'everyone has internet and cyberware' kind of thing, it's socially normal but isn't actually completely prevalent. Though I'll be honest, I found it fucking STUPID in GitS that everyone swapped out their biological brains for HACKABLE brains, ok sure only some of the most elite hackers seem to be able to do this with any consistency, but just the danger alone would turn me off from it.

Eitherway, in settings like GitS and Shadowrun, people do exist who shunned the whole technology thing, especially in Shadowrun cases like you mentioned, some people just never take to it but it's become so prevalent in society that any secure area expects you to have your cyber money and cyber ID.

Nothing stopping you from living in the Ork underground or the Barrens and just ignoring the whole craze, let the techie fuck in the group deal with it, you got MAGICS BITCHES.

>>9436202

he was probably talking about archetypes, of which there are. They aren't strict but generally you can get the idea of a character by saying 'he's a summoning mage' or 'he's a hacker'. The best characters somewhat defy these archetypes but even they can get pigeon-holed by others in the group.

Imagine spending 5 minutes describing your character lack some kind of faggot only to have the group say 'oh, he's a Street Sam' because you took a fair amount of cyberware and bioware (I find the latter is more common now).

>>9436277

Fair enough, but, it's classless, and I've seen some people that have only done DnD struggle with the idea.

>>9436362

haha, yeah. You see that with most games like it, GURPS is hilarious for it though I'm more likely to take someone into Shadowrun from Dungeons and Dragons then to take them into fucking GURPS. Making a character in GURPS with a guy who only understands classes would be a huge pain.

>>9433733
Of course they did not like that.
200BP? No one could survive on the streets with that. They'd be less intimidating that average wageslaves (we are talking attributes in the 1-2 range with that!). For a gang campaign, use 400BP and some common sense as far as gear and skills go.

>>9436202
Yeah, but the DM rolled with it. He lets some rules slid a bit to make way for awsomeness. Like my sniper shooting a missile out of the air or our troll street samurai turned his katana into a bludgeoning weapon when he skewrd a baddy a little too hard and he got stuck on the sword.

>>9436226
....swapped out? No.

Augmented yes.

>>9436390
Yeah, that's really hard.

On the other hand, the Cthulhupunk sourcebook is fun stuff.

>>9436390

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dumping on DnD. 3.5 is my poison of choice. Hell, it took me a bit to get used to it.

>>9436440

Ah, alright, THAT kinda game. Yeah, those can be fun, but, you gotta remember how tight they are with airspace in most games.

"Something flying? Not registered? Shoot it down" and that's the end of it. And their radar is tight, too.

But, that kind, the smash the door, shoot a Beretta .50 one-handed, and jump out the window....that can be fun.

>>9436447

I'm sure I saw them showing off a 2nd hand cyberbrain in one of the episodes of Stand Alone Complex, either-way the whole thing is pretty crazy and I don't even mind the whole transhuman blurb the show goes on about, it's the idea of making it so your brain can be WIRELESS HACKED IN REAL TIME, OH GOD WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

Makes for a nice story, but fuck, the idea everyone but hobos could be hacked like that is amazing.

>>9436499
My sniper was running around with a .50 sniper rifle and we had a monster of a troll we called Blueberry. We gave him best possible armor and the bioware that lets stun damage spill over to lethal damage and doesn't knock him out. He was a monster, cutting down rooms full of well armed mercs and even took an anti-tank missile to the chest.

>>9436535

>Troll with the best armour.

Yeah, they will do that. Actually it's one of my complaints with Shadowrun really, it's nice that humans and other lightweights can now bulk up to survive a fire fight relatively unharmed, but when applied to Orks and Trolls the whole thing gets silly and you end up with characters with 40 dice of soak. Taking away the ability to stun damage the Troll down is a bit mean too, but then Magic will still rape his ass, you just need to use more imaginative spells then to straight up take him down through damage.

I had a really mean DM when playing Shadowrun, if you had a responce team coming in and they KNEW it was Shadowrunners, you had better get the fuck out before they arrive, also while snipers are fun, a Mage and a Spotter can be SO HARSH. Give that man a pair of non-electronic binoculars and watch him rape things in his 'line of sight' while support mages help him from home.

>>9436499

> Beretta .50

Oh man I though was the only one who made that mistake.

>>9436664

Could be a troll pistol.

>>9436644
Yeah. Thats why I want to do shadowrun again but not try to powergame. It is a system that is easily broken, but creates a awesome environment for roleplaying.
The troll also had an assault rifle and we determined that it would be troll size, thus large enough for a grenade launcher and flame thrower attachment. Blueberry was a one man (or troll) army when we rolled through buildings

Runner antagonizes megacorp.

Send more or less a loli cyborg ala Gunslinger girl after him.

Later, send psychotic assassin whom he learns after killing him? Long lost sister.

Feels bad man, feels real bad.

>>9436760

I wish I had the stats saved, but I remember seeing once as a thought experiment, someone who, having seen GSG, took stats for an average loli (numbers that were pulled from the ass, but reasonable ones), and added just under six Essence worth of delta-grade, top of the line cyber and bioware, with cost as no object. The results were...remarkable.

>>9436535

Ah, yes, I love that thing. Meet MS.

Barrett Model 121, with Silencer, Smartgun, and folding Bi-pod
Gun- 9,000Y
Mod slots used:6 Slots open:0
Mods: Easy Breakdown, Gas Vent 2, Melee Hardening, Personalized grip, Skin-link, Sling
Mod Costs: EBD(1): 9,000Y, GV2(1): 200Y, MH(1): 300Y, PG(1), 100Y, Skinlink(1): 50Y, Sling(0): 10Y
Total: 18,660Y

Imaging Scope: 300Y
Vision magnification: 100Y
Thermograghic: 100Y
Flare Compensation: 50Y
Total: 550Y

Damage:10
AP: 5
Mode:SA
RC: 2(5)
Ammo: EX-Explosive

>>9436664

FUCKK.....yeah. Goddamn Spellchecker. Gave me the wrong option, and I never noticed.

>>9436760

I did this once, but removed the 'prepubescent girl' and 'Italian' from the concept, one of the group was playing a Black Horse character from the start with a background that seemed like it would fit, that is, he was a abandoned half-complete assassin from some secret project where he had the whole 'killing is a art' part implanted into his brain along with a bunch of mysterious cyberware, he INSISTED on having a bomb in his head that could wipe out a room when it went off as part of it, but I didn't tell him there were other elements in his head he didn't know of because he took the flaw and it was part of the story.

I was supposed to eventually have the organisation who made these custom assassins start up again, the group to be hired to investigate 'disapearances' in a poor area from one of their contacts as a favour and then have my Black Horse's mysterious cyberware allow them to locate him by chance on the mission and use his bomb in his head to bring him back in and see how it played out.

Never got there though, game lasted four sessions and then some of the players found a game being run they were waiting for and I only had the hacker and this assassin left, it didn't seem like the game would really work with just two guys. Nice while it ran through, they did some good stuff and the assassin made a point of complicating missions so he could perform his art, usually behind the groups back.

>>9436785

It's surprisingly easy to do in Shadowrun, hell you could go the full hog and make them cyber zombies seeing as their mental conditioning problems are sometimes surprisingly similar to cyber zombie problems. It would also make for one hell of a frightening (and disturbing, why little girls you sick freak my party would say) encounter.

Maxed out move-by wire, dermal armour, titanium bones complete cyberworks (I suppose you could also make them into a actual cyborg but I'd rather not) any number of advanced biowares to help them soak damage and ignore pain.

Worst still, I think being cyberware presents them with resistance to magic. If you want to be a complete jerk, pair them with mage 'older brothers' for support whom they have to protect and follow the orders of. Worst still, the organisation tends to use them with teams of these pairings so you'd think you've caught out the sniper and then find out she too is a cyber zombie monster, protecting the raiding cyber zombie monstOH GOD WHY DO YOU HAVE THAT MUCH STRENGTH AUMENTATION, MY ARM SHOULDN'T BEND LIKE THAT.

They aren't the brightest bunch though, unless you got Triella, she's pretty sharp.

So, question, if I want to start up Shadowrun, what books do I need?

And hell, lets go with the newest edition.

>>9437038

Well, all you NEED is the core book. I highly sugest Augmentation, Ars...you know what? Fuckit.

Give me like 5 minuets, I'll have the links for you.

>>9437027

>I think being cyberware

I meant cyber zombie, though it's been a while. I remember they create negative auras though that will eventually make a place harder to cast in. Pairing them with mages would need mages with balls of steal, they don't much like being around those kinds of areas.

>>9436878
I have one of these modded for full auto and loaded up with APDS ammo concealed in an innocuous-looking aerial support drone. I use it to take out enemy vehicles.

>>9437038

Core book is the only one you NEED, but Augmentation and Arsenal have most the rest, the magic book is nice but frankly it's mostly just a few new spells, more in-depth magic mechanics and spirits with some new useful adept powers. I don't rate Wired because the Matrix is annoying enough without adding more bullshit for the hacker to waste group time on.

I prefer fast and loose hackers so the game doesn't become this two tier nightmare.

>>9437056
Much Obliged.

>>9436922

Hey, fullautoing everything in the room so the blood spashes up the wall is totally an art. Also, I insisted on a cranial nuke, but that was beyond bounds.

>>9437038

I'd say the core book is pretty necessary. After that, really, depends a lot on what kind of characters people want to play. If you have magicians, get Street Magic. If you get hackers and technomancers, get Unwired. Mundane, violent sorts, Arsenal and possibly Augmentation. And if they're into more character options, there's the Runner's Companion. Really, the core book's going to take you most of the way to where you want to be, and I'd just pick up other stuff based on the particular characters your group wants to make. Vice could be useful for flavor, if you can find it, but there's no real necessary stuff in it.

The setting sourcebooks are nice, but depending on your GMing style and confidence level you may want to make your own sprawl up. That said, there are three books with about five cities each detailed in SR4. Of the six cities that get big writeups, my personal favorite is LA in Corporate Enclaves. Of all the writeups, though, I love the short blurb about Nairobi, with all the space elevator stuff going down, and that's in CE too. If you've got a city in mind, maybe one you're particularly attached to, actually, I may be able to point you to more resources, either 4E or older.

Shadorun Gm hopeful here;

I have 3 would be players:

#1 is ready to play

#2 is a friend of #1, I have never seen him and most likely never will since he apparently dissappeared

#3 Is constantly busy, also cannot send neither emails nor phone calls.

I sad

>>9437098

Yeah, if you don't feel bad about it, just rs it. It's pretty much all up there, except for Vice and Ghost Cartels (a premade campaign). The other premade campaign is called Emergence, and I like that one better but it's a lot less structured. I'd upload my pdfs but I'm at the wrong computer and I don't know how to fuckin' do anything like that.

>>9437083

While I love sniper rifles, my main weapon of choice is a Ares Alpha modded to all hell so it practically never suffers recoil, even at full auto. It's a beast.

Ugly gun though. I remember there is also a LMG that has it's own equivalent of gas vents already installed that can get a real high recoil compensation for the same trick, but I try to avoid using that kind of thing as when people here LMGs in they don't call the police, they go right to anti-runner/military types because that shit is a warzone.

>>9437123

Dude, just convince some newbie friends to do it. Out of my six players, before this campaign started only 2 had ever done tabletop before. And the learning curve was rocky, but it's been well over a year and it's been a great campaign.

>>9437141

I'm personally a fan of the Ruger Super Warhawk modified to fire semi-auto. Draw, pardner.

>>9437154

Those ARE my newbie friends :(

>>9437115

>Also, I insisted on a cranial nuke, but that was beyond bounds.

Not really feasible or even that good idea within the context of how I was going to run it, I was going to up the damage on the explosive a bit though because frankly explosives always end up being a bit weak in Shadowrun when trolls can practically take anti-tank rounds.

Not to mention I wanted to avoid spite nuking the party.

Alrighty, here we go.


This is the fancy new core book.
http://www.4shared.com/document/lylzvj8t/Shadowrun_4th_-_Core_Rulebook_.html?s=1

The orginal 4ed Core Book
http://www.4shared.com/document/LJXsRBm6/Shadowrun_4E_26000_Shadowrun_4.html?s=1

Runner's Companion, the book of advanced Character creation.
http://www.4shared.com/document/bw2ST2GQ/Shadowrun_4E_-_Runners_Compani.html?s=1

Arsenal, Self-explanatory, also has drones and vehicles, and customization rules
http://www.4shared.com/document/NQKvQc7P/Shadowrun_4E_-_Arsenal.html?s=1

Augmentation, The med-tech book. It's got nano-ware, more cyber and bio, as well as rules for Cyber-zombies and full body cyborgs.
http://www.4shared.com/document/tUVVF19w/Shadowrun_4E_-_Augmentation.html?s=1

Street Magic, expanded rules for...well, mages. Duh.
http://www.4shared.com/document/OZpAbjSp/Shadowrun_4E_-_Street_Magic.html?s=1

And, Unwired, the hacker's book.
http://www.4shared.com/document/zjsvK9Ay/Shadowrun_4E_-_Unwired.html?s=1

>>9437141
My main weapon of choice is a colt M23 assault rifle with personalized grip, chameleon coating, an internal sound suppressor, and external gas vents and smartgun. It goes well with my chameleon suit, physical camo spell, and concealing spirit. I can use it on full automatic and people are still at -10 perception to hear it and -12 to see.

I love being a stealth specialist.

>>9437205
>4shared.com

Stick n Shock in a Holdout Pistol or you're just powergaming

>>9437135

I can get you a copy of GC, if you want. Vice yet eludes me, though.

>>9437168

Ooh, let me post the rest of the stuff I tend to have.

First group, is:

Colt Manhunter, with
Gun: 300Y
Mod Slots used:0 Slots open: 6
Total Cost: 300Y

Ares Executive Protector, with Briefcase, Folding Stock, Smartlink, Integral Sound Suppressor.
Gun: 1,500Y
Mod slots used:6 Slots open:0
Mods to gun: Additional Clip, Electronic Firing, Gas Vent system (3)
Costs: AC(2): 1,000, EF(2): 1,000Y, GVS(2): 400Y
Total cost: 3,900Y
Has two of this, both modded the same.

Ares Desert Strike, with Extended barrel, rigid stock with shock pad, and Imaging scope.
Gun cost: 3,350Y
Mod slots used:5 Slots open:1
Mods to gun: Internal Bi-pod, Skinlink, Smartgun system
Mod Costs: IB(3):400Y, Skinlink(1): 50Y, Smartgun(1): 3,350Y, Vision Magnification for the Imaging scope:100Y
Total: 7,250Y

Remington 990, with shock pad, attached Bayonet
Gun cost: 550Y, Bayonet: 40Y
Mod slots used:6 Slots open:0
Mods to gun: Flashlight, Low-Light, Improved range Finder, Melee Harding, Personalized grip, Skinlink, Smartgun System
Mod costs: Flashlight, Low-Light(1): 200Y, IRF(1): 1,000Y, Melee Harding(1): 300Y, Personalized grip(1): 100Y, Skinlink(1): 50Y Smartgun System(1): 550Y
Total cost: 2,790

Unmodded colt if my out in the open gun. That char also has a heavy cyber-pistol in his arm.

>>9437168
Twin Colt Manhunters with personalized grips, low-light flashlights, extended clips, melee hardening, and engraved slides.

Who needs kung-fu? Gun-fu has more reach.

>>9437278

The one that has the sniper rifle, already posted? she carries this lot.

FN P93 Praetor, with Flashlight
Gun:650
Mod slots used:6 Slots open:0
Mods: Smartgun, Gas Vent 3, Sound Suppressor, Lanyard
Mod Costs: SG(1): 650Y, GV3(2): 400Y, SS(3): 600Y, Lanyard(0): 10Y
Total: 2,310Y


Ares Predator 4, with Smartgun, Quick-Draw Holster, Silencer
Gun: 350Y, Holster: 100Y, Silencer: 200Y
Mod slots used:3 Slots open:3
Mods: Melee Hardening, Personalized Grip, Reduced Weight
Mod Costs: MH(1): 300Y, PG(1): 100Y, RW(1): 350Y
Total: 1,400Y

Morrissey Elan with Hidden Arm Slide
Cost: 450Y, Slide: 350Y
Mod slots used: Slots open:
Mods: Personalized Grip, Reduced Weight, Smartgun System
Mod Costs: PG(1): 100Y, RW(1): 450Y, Smatgun: 450Y
Total: 1,800Y

>>9437257

It's where I got all my books. I vouch.

>>9437253

>It goes well with my chameleon suit, physical camo spell, and concealing spirit.

Oh fuck you. At least when I have a full camo suit playing stealth characters I give them a chance and just go with my Ruthinium coated sports bag to go with my chameleon suit. Adding magic to the mix is just out right mean.

That said, as a GM I'd rape you with that eventually. Magic is one of those kinds of things where if you use it all the time for things you don't NEED to you'll eventually get bitten, in this case just because you are completely invisible, it doesn't mean that the huge number of magical effects around you are completely invisible. I wouldn't be such a cheap fuck so as to astrally spot someone using a invisibility spell, but the fact magic is being used and alot of it would become clear enough in time to anyone who can see astrally.

>>9437205
Again, much obliged.

What's the difference between core rulebooks? Errata and the like?

>>9437301
>This Corporate Zone is rated N for NO FUN

>>9437309

Uh, they changed the rules a bit. When my laptop died, I had only gotten a little look at it, fucking video card.

They changed a few rules here ad there, and some other things. The updated book is still good with the other books, though.

>>9437309
tl;dr they nerfed magic

>>9437301

It'd be pretty damn obvious if they don't stick around and clean up the astral signature left from spells in the area. Its a pain in the ass really, its like walking through sand and having to clear away those foot prints as you go.

>>9437357

Well, it needed it.

>>9437315

if only I could find nofunallowed.jpg

Still, like I said, 'eventually'. After all, don't tell me that shit isn't cheap. Though I suppose after a while people just learn to start equipping their guards with optional ultrasound goggles for when they suspect invisible opponents.

>>9437361

I've always liked that about magic, you got some pretty strong powers, but if you weren't clinically careful with them, they could bite you in the ass something rotten.

>>9437185

:( Bummer, man. ...Make more friends? That really can't but improve your life anyways. The girl playing our shaman, we're like BFF tier friends now, and she only got introduced to me as a buddy of our gunbunny when the campaign began.

>>9437278

Oh, that's super sweet of you, but I've got it, I just don't know how to upload it for the other guy and it's on my other computer anyways.

>>9437301
I admit, until I got Extended Masking to conceal my spell/focus auras I worried a great deal about astral observers and signatures, to the point that I'd spend rounds scrubbing even if I needed to be running away. Astral Chameleon and that metamagic for signature time reduction- forget which it is- only go so far, after all. Infiltration checks and the concealment bonus from spirits do work against people watching you on the astral plane, though, so that's something. And you have to burn additional services from your spirit to get it to sneak with you, if the GM's a dick.

Ultrasound is also something to be concerned about; it ignores Physical Camo and chameleon suit penalties and replaces them with a flat -3. It doesn't ignore spirits' Concealment abilities, though, so that can kick the net penalty up to -7 for my usual operations. Combined with my stealth rolls it's usually more than enough.

>>9437430

Ah, not a problem. It took me a while to find it, that's why the offer had to be made.

>>9437460

>If the DMs a dick
>Playing a character that can only be spotted by Runner level specialisations and die pools.

If I were playing something so heavily built to do something that basically removes most the difficulty from a run I'd expect the GM to be pretty careful about exactly how I'm doing it.

>>9437397
The increased chance of glitches (and critical glitches / failures) over earlier editions makes that much more possible. The one big thing I like about regular glitches and magic is that it allows you to have magic act in bizzare / unpredictable ways without just straight up exploding in your face.

Overall I think the magic rules were heavily improved from earlier editions. Especially the way learning spells was treated, now I don't need to agonize over what level force to learn this spell at and will it be redundant if I want to learn it at a higher force later on down the road.

>>9437533
Oh, I agree, the GM has every right to take care of every last detail- if you're running a stealth focused character, you need to think about virtually everything. That said, I have never seen a GM require that you burn a second service to have a spirit conceal itself in addition to you/the party or have it be running around fully visible except when playing super-stealth type, which to me means that it's just them reaching around for ways to trip me up.

Other considerations. Don't let your electronics make any noise at all; everything needs to be wired physically to one another to avoid hackers noticing unregistered signals. As a mage-stealth type that tripped me up a couple times before I realized how important it was. This includes communication with the other party members, unfortunately; get a laser link if at all possible, but be ready to go without talking to them occasionally if you're sneaking into secure areas on your own.

>I wouldn't be such a cheap fuck so as to astrally spot someone using a invisibility spell
I actually don't consider that terribly cheap. One of the big things anyone relying on magic for concealment needs to remember is that it only fools the mundane types; anything from mages to ghouls to hellhounds can see right through it. That's why you need to layer your stealth methods- just because you've got a spell and a spirit on you doesn't mean you can ditch the camo suit or stop sneaking around. There is no such thing as enough precautions.

>>9437664

Random other notes. That spell that eliminates spilled blood and trace evidence is a good one. Illusions are wonderful, because if they don't see you but do see something else they'll go for the something else every time. Do not assume that just because they can't see you, you can see them- it's easy to let the power of being invisible and walking on the ceiling go to your head; but you're just as vulnerable and ignorant as anyone else. Corps have remote monitoring in place, pressure plates and lasers where you don't see them, all kinds of shit, and the smart ones won't let on that they see you right away. Stay frosty. Get your team hacker to tap their communications- laser repeating microdrones are at risk of being spotted, but if you need a secure no-signal data line they can provide one- and listen to them if at all possible. And did I mention that walking on the ceiling is a good thing? It is.

>>9437636
Oh, and glitching reminds me of something else: Your edge is precious beyond all else. Save it for when you're about to botch a roll that will result in your being seen, because your greatest protection is them not knowing you're there. You can afford to take a few physical damage from a spirit's drain or lose a spell.

>>9437205

Awesome. Thanks for all the help, I've got some PDFs, I'll look over them tomorrow, and talk with my group.

I think one of my local bookstores may have the core book, and I like hardcopies, so if I like what I see, I may get it.

But now, it is time to sleep.

>>9437722

Not a problem. If you need help, and see me floating around, feel free to bother me for more books or help. I also post, RARELY, with this trip.

It's part of the reason I like keeping magic in the game so much, it's a good counter to overpowered characters. Troll with armor soak up the wazoo? Still doesn't help against manaball. Hell, even fireball or acid spray would affect him pretty badly. Spotting the stealthers, scouting, sprit summoning. And the best part is that they can get to the scene quickly.

SR4e
"Everything" is wireless?
Devices can be slaved in order to lessen hacker threats?
Slaved devices are still prone to spoofed IDs?
In order to spoof a slaved device one must know of the ID of the master, or can they brute force it or something?
Why would you ever want/need cyberware/limbs connected to the internet at all?
If you want to broadcast what you see with your cybereyes, shouldn't you somewhat consider the possibility of them being hacked if you now felt the need to connect your eyes to the internet event hough you didn't have to?

Other than technological advances overall, what is bad about the world being wireless?
Everyone with basic knowledge of wireless internet security shouldn't make stupid mistakes, should they?

>>9437309
The original core book's errata
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4/sr4_errata_v18.pdf
Changes made in the new anniversary edition
http://shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4a/sr4a_changes.pdf

Once you've played a single Shadowrun game, you've played them all.

>>9441703

>"Everything" is wireless?

Not 'everything' but a lot of things are. Making every electronic device wireless is fucking stupid, but where people can think of utility in it, things will be wireless which brings me to the other point I wanted to answer.

>Why would you ever want/need cyberware/limbs connected to the internet at all?

Cyberware in SR4e is often wireless because it means they don't have to provide nano-tubing between everything like they previously had to. It's more convenient for them to simply do that and have them all create a Personal Area Network (PAN) then to wire them all together. It's specifically handy for the smart link upgrade in your cyber eyes which used to require either physically plugging a wire into your gun to a socket on your body, or having contacts on your hands to use with contacts on the gun. The range of all cyberware is generally 0, short of you perposefully boosting their range and you can only hack something if you can send and receive information so only within its range. This means if you haven't connected your PAN to a commlink like most would, you have to be within like a metre or so to hack some ones eyes.

If it's connected to a commlink, then you could hack the commlink from range through to the eyes. That said, the commlink will likely have much better security if the runner knows what he's doing, or have a slave set up like mentioned above if you are a paranoid fuck.

>>9442062

Some cyberware systems wouldn't even need to really have wireless either. Frankly if I just got a replacement cyberarm from a industrial accident or something I'd just need it to function like a arm, though I suppose some might want to have it able to upgrade firmware or have a commlink built in I guess. Personally I'd just have a wire go into it when you need to mess with the configuration and have it run off nerves like usual. No reason to link it to the fucking internet.

>>9442062
That's completely retarded, and definitely not Shadowrun. Just like the 4e rules.

it's not Shadowrun if I'm not jacking in a slot with my rod god damnit

is it like Ghost in the Shell then?

There's wireless stuff in that, but they still slot into jacks

>nano-tubing between everything like they previously had to
If this had advantages shouldn't it still be possible to use it?

>>9442216

You still have to sometimes slot rods into jacks even in SR4e, afterall not every corperation is going to be stupid enough to have their node on wireless and may invest in wire spaghetti or wifi-inhibiting walls to require the hacker to be inside the building or even force them to physically jack into a system through a connected device. Depends on the set up. That said, the reason they use wifi in most corps is because it removes all those wires and allows greater freedom for workers to access information as required to their jobs and the like so it's a balance between security and ease of use. The more security matters to a facility, the more likely it'll take precautions that cost nuyen.

>>9442275

I don't disallow my players to use it, generally speaking I keep the costs the same seeing as older technology used to do it and character gen you could just say you got it before the crash or whatever. Buying new gear in game may have a minor price increase asking for it and it wouldn't be easy to just go into a store and buy something that is obsolete to many, though really, if you are illegally buying restricted gear the chances are you can ask the guy to use nano-tubing or whatever.

I think it's a dick move to completely deny the possibility, but as previously said the risk of someone hacking your eyes is usually remote as it would require you linking them to the commlink or for them to be so close he'd be in your face. Not that there aren't interesting work arounds.

>>9442282

Indeed, and lets not forget that just because suddenly there's wireless everywhere that all those hardwired buildings just got magically upgraded. Unless its a shiny new building it probably has all the wires still in the walls connecting everything with a wireless network pasted on the top. There's nothing cost cutting about removing all those wires from the inside of buildings. Though if you are hitting newer buildings, there is a fair chance that they will have a whole new barrel of fun countermeasures in place.

>>9442344

I remember one guy I used to run with had the idea of creating a kind of weaponised commlink grenade of sorts that would basically be a appropriately shaped and well shock packed cheapish commlink loaded up with copies of IC software complete with hacking/electronic warfare programs and the instructions to fuck up everything it could reach within it's stunted range.

Linking your personal PAN to a commlink and having good enough security on it would probably stop it short of getting terrible rolls, but if it's close enough to hack range 0 electronics it could do a bit of damage.

Holy damn, this thread is still here.

4th has better rules but worse setting

I use 4th rules with 1st or 2nd setting
nothing beats old school shadowrun 80s trash b-movie feel

>>9442275
There's a part in the books about getting all the wireless junk taken out of your cyberware. Basically, it's possible, but it makes maintenance a pain since you need to get cut open to check something, rather than querying the device wirelessly.


Also, while we're talking about infiltration, does a full body suit and helmet/mask hide your aura? Or will an aura still show through most clothing and armor?

>>9442588

>Also, while we're talking about infiltration, does a full body suit and helmet/mask hide your aura? Or will an aura still show through most clothing and armor?

Actually, this is a interesting question. I always move on the assumption it doesn't and use my infiltration skill to move about on the assumption I may be seen. Generally speaking short of some kind of specific set up spirit patrols can't tell the difference between a aura of a mundane human worker and a mundane human infiltrator so they probably wouldn't register you unless you were around at a time there aren't supposed to be people or had any magical items on you.

I find being awakened can be a tricky business in of itself as it tends to make astral security take notice if someone they see isn't mundane.

I suppose thinking about it, the whole aura thing depending strongly on how far out the aura extends, physical non-alive objects at the very least block view in Astral. This should include clothing.

>>9442588
The aura extends briefly outward from the body, clothing has no effect whatsoever. If you are a jarhead inside of a drone, though...

>>9442588
I'm sure you could get some of that astrally opaque paint on your armor.

>>9442588
You could rule that it depends on your essence and/or magic. A mage's aura would be visible through almost anything short of Full Body Armor, but someone with four cyberlimbs and move-by-wire can hide their's with a sweatshirt and a ski mask.

>>9442786
Missed a spot, though with awesome results. You'd see a pair of eyes moving through your security, leaving pain and destruction in it's wake. Though the holes in the ski mask would be a fairly small blip, so it might be missed.
Though to be on the safe side, put some goggles on.

>>9442753
The only reference I can find in the books is from Street Magic: "While clothes and other non-living objects are often outshone by the brightness of the wearer’s aura.."

Which is pretty clear about regular clothing having no effect on your aura, but doesn't exactly tell you whether it's because of a diffraction thing (The aura from the visible parts of your body sheds enough light that your clothing can't be seen), or whether auras actually shine *through* clothing.

In the first case, covering your body *completely* would hide your aura, but in the second you need something fancier (Which book is that astrally opaque paint in?)

Could someone explain to me how shields work?
The book claims that they are unweidly resulting in a -1 modifier on all physical tests, and of course it also takes one of your hands that could otherwised be used to do something else.
Yet the full armor rating still counts towards armor encumberance meaning that you will lose agility and reaction if the shield results in it becoming too large for your character to handle?

Then why would you ever use a shield instead of just getting your hands on armor with at least the same rating?
Oh there was the thing the shields armor rating stacking with other armor, right? I almost forgot that but can't you still do fine with strong armor and little bit every other armor item that adds their rating?

However now when I have remembered the fact that they like helmets adds their rating to the rest of the armor I guess they actually could be useful sometimes considering how their rating is generally larger than that of any of the other additional armor items.
Have any of you ever used shields though?

>>9444780
As written, shields are pretty bad.

Between cyberlimb armor, cyber/bioware, FFBA, regular armor, helmets, and PPP it's pretty much always possible to hit your armor caps without using a shield.

It might be more expensive, but it keeps a hand free and there isn't a dice pool penalty, so shields are pretty much never necessary.

A Shadowrun thread over a day old?

>>9445273
It's beautiful, isn't it.? Come on folks, keep it alive!

Someone mentioned (Like, yesterday) that they couldn't find a copy of vice online. Anyone want me to upload it?

>>9444780
>>9445129
One of my players wanted to use shields.
Would it be stupid if I were to make it so that it doesn't contribute to Armour Encumberance at all? And allowing it to in a way be wielded as a rather un-effective "weapon" that has the benefit of adding it's rating to your armour?
And if so, how should I handle the situation if he were to use two shields at once? (yes he wanted to dual wield them)

Or should I bluntly tell him that they suck and that it doesn't work?

>>9445129
Something that's bugged me for a while now? It's not explicitly stated that helmets count toward the encumbrance cap, but then again, it's not explicitly stated that they don't. How the hell could a helmet count towards your character wheezing and straining to walk around?

Pic related.

>>9445425
>Anyone want me to upload it?
Oh yes, that would be great.

>>9445491
If you don't make them add to encumbrance, expect his soak value to get very, very high. Especially if he's an ork or a troll.

But you could probably make them an alternative to FFBA, and have them only add half their values for the purpose of calculating encumbrance, without anything getting too silly (Especially if he doesn't know about FFBA).

And I wouldn't let two shields stack. The SR4 rules already pretty much assume every attack hits your shield, so there isn't a whole lot of benefit from the extra surface area, and trying to position two shields to cover the same attack is just silly. Maybe give a +1/+1 bonus top, and both shields should give a dicepool penalty.

>>9445509
Working on it now. My upload is apparently trash, though, so it will take about half an hour.

>>9445494
>Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.
Stacked armor refering to armor on armor, such as the case of a chain shirt worn under millitary armor, and thus not armor rating stacking together.
And regarding stacked armor, only the highest rating of ballistic and impact applies.
So in the case of an armor with 2/8 and another with 7/4 the armor rating of them worn together would simply be 7/8.
If you were to add an helmet to that with 1/2 you would get an armor rating of 8/9 as their rating is added to the overall rating.
>If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body.
Now, armor items refer to any armor items worn, may that be full body armor, a helmet or something as simple as knee pads.

>>9445649
Huh. Page references? I guess I missed that.

I've played a total of 1 games.

GODDAMN YOU FATUM

>>9445494
Technically they count, since they modify the values of your existing armor, which counts (So try to buy a helmet for your form-fitting body armor and declare only half of it counts, if you're feeling incredibly cheesy).

Is this silly? Yes. Is it better for most people than trying to realistically model encumbrance depending on the location and material of your armor? Probably also yes. If you don't like it, rule that they don't, I guess.


The question I have is: what's the dice pool penalty for a called shot to the head of someone who isn't wearing a helmet? It would be very, very silly if it's equal to the value of their armor, but it also seems like being able to skip their armor entirely for a -4 on your roll is sort of strong.

>But you could probably make them an alternative to FFBA, and have them only add half their values for the purpose of calculating encumbrance, without anything getting too silly (Especially if he doesn't know about FFBA).
This was my initial idea and the one I most likely am going to stick with.
I do like shields myself, my friend however admittedly likes to glorify them.
With this I hope that they can be used without harming the game too much.

And yeah I don't know how multiple shields would work, I could see it help some in some ways but I think it would be mostly bothersome if anything (especially for me) so I will just say that that it doesn't work well.

>>9445609
Nevermind, it suddenly got better.

http://www.mediafire.com/?zdyd4mywvko

>>9445669
SR4core s.149
or SR4anniversary 161

>>9445861
Thanks, really.
I have wanted to read that one for a while.
Now, is it any good?
Anything noteworthy?

>>9445981
They've got an 'Other Outfits' section on things like organleggers and cracker groups in addition to stuff like street gangs and criminal syndicates, which is neat. And also a pretty detailed section about law enforcement.

>>9442753
This is the important point regarding auras, as far as I know. Physical objects are aura-permeable, and if you spend enough time in them your aura rubs off on them anyway even if you're mundane.

Admittedly, that results in a few odd cases like being able to detect people through walls as long as they walls are sufficiently thin, and being able to tell how cybered someone is by examining their personal possessions, but it's my understanding of how it works.

>>9446226
So between ultrasound, thermographic cameras, and astral security is Sam Fisher style infiltration even possible?

Regarding infiltration.
A player in my group pointed out that Polymer Coating and invisible spells applied to all visual perception tests or something along those lines.
He argued that this also applies to ultrasound and thermographic vision, arguing that if light and darkness can affect them so should these considering how they are included within the Visibility Table.

How should I tacke this?
Is he correct? Is it stupid? Should I ignore him or not?

>>9446681
There is a table for the modifiers in the core rulebook I believe

>>9446426
It's possible. Harder, and requiring some specialized equipment, but possible.

>>9446681
Ruthenium Polymer coating only changes an object's color. There's really no way to justify it providing -4 against ultrasound or thermographic vision.

I have no idea about the invisibility spell and concealment power, though. I'd need to check out their specific rules.

>>9446939
If anyone's still interested.

Invisibility gives you a bonus vs. natural thermographic vision and all natural other senses which depend on light (Does nothing vs. ultrasound). Your aura is still visible.

Improved invisibility is like invisibility, but it also foils cameras and other technological, light-dependent senses. Your aura is still visible.

The concealment power gives you a bonus vs. all perception tests. Astral perception, thermographic vision, hearing, radar, ultrasound, and anything else are all affected.

>>9446939
>>9446681
I'd say get a mage to cast Silence over you for a modifier against ultrasound, GM's discretion on that of course, and mod the suit with thermal dampening for a bonus against thermographic.

>>9447459
Or that. Either would work, really.

rolled 12 = 12

>>9446939

I simply don't have Ruthinium work against Ultrasound AT ALL. Admittedly though, using Ultrasound gives a natural all around -2 to perception tests to spot anything because frankly you using a personal radar system as site. Light conditions don't effect it and as pointed out, Ruthinium is still just something that makes you harder to see... that doesn't mean to say there isn't a counter and Ultrasound goggles aren't standard equipment I'd expect all guards to have, it's like 2000 nuyen each pair which may no be alot to a runner, but you can't really have every rent a cop using one or put it on every camera.

The key thing to remember about Shadowrun is that while you can layer security on security until a facility is basically it's own Fort Knox, it doesn't mean it's practical or cost effective to do so. Only the most secure facilities are going to have heavily layered security. Most places make do with a more simple system, contract out security at an affordable price and hire a mage to put up some astral barriers that'll notify security if broken. Depending on how important it is you can add more or less ranging from on site fast response teams, mages and security hackers to more passive methods to practically none at all.

I remember being hired to sabotage a reclamation site in Los Angles where they were keeping the sea at bay while working on a new dock. They mostly used half trained awakened critters during the night and put up signs, several security drones attached to a security rigger and a small network of cameras. Only thing limiting a guy is his imagination and a degree of realism on how far you think the people paying for it are willing to spend.

>>9447459

Concealment is the real sweet one, though it uses a spirit power which in of itself can be a bit dodgy, especially if you hit a ward or two on the way. Again, another problem with magic really, you'd have to figure a way to get your spirit through the ward, ideally without spending more services (and they will be bitchy about it if you require powers to get by it). That said, a magical ward is generally a joke as far as security measures go, but taking them down usually alerts people and passing through them can be a little dodgy, they basically present another fence for the mage others don't have to worry about.

Alright, here's some really hardcore munchkin-ing that I feel really, really shouldn't work, but I can't actually find anything wrong with it.

Let's say I'm using Runner's Companion to play a Free Spirit from a possession tradition. Can I buy a full set of heavily modified cyberlimbs, attach them all to each other, and then possess a shiny metal killing machine?

A spirit's inability to use DNI shouldn't matter, since It's not trying to make a possessed body use a cybrlimb, It's just moving the whole thing about like a mannequin. A murderous, unstoppable mannequin with attributes that make a plasteel homunculus seem quaint.

And if you can just build a sweet cyberbody and then summon and bind a spirit of possession, then why does anyone bother with cybermancy?

>>9447470

could work, but I think it depends. Part of the problem is how silence works. Assuming we're talking about a area of effect that is basically personal when the ultrasound hits you and doesn't return, it's going to be a anomaly. Not quite obvious at first though, the guard would have to be a little bright to work it out, but it'll make him stop to wonder what the fuck that blank spot is where a wall should be shaped roughly like a door.

>>9447854

No, not really. You'd be moving about a load of metal like it's your own I guess, but it wouldn't be powering itself so it's strength would be your force + normal modifiers for material and spirit type I guess. After all, you can't actually control the electronic side of the mannequin so it would just be a very costly metal body. A suit of full plate suit or specially designed statue would be pretty cool.

>>9447854
>Let's say I'm using Runner's Companion to play a Free Spirit from a possession tradition
>Let's say I'm using Runner's Companion

I have identified your problem.

>>9446426

It's possible, but for the really high pay jobs on high security areas you'd need support from other specialists to make sure you are prepared for the counter measures they have ready. For more basic work a infiltration specialist can do alot on their own, but Shadowrun is a game where specialists working together in a close knit team is ideal.

Basically, imagine Sam Fisher and his Mage buddy, a Hacker watching his back, a Face who can get hold of good equipment, social engineer some extra help for your job and negotiate pay, a Rigger to get you out quickly or get you there in style and maybe a tank troll Street Sam for PLAN B: KILL EVERYTHING.

>>9447854
I'm sure you could come up with a drone or golem body that does the same or something similar for less money. But free spirit PCs suck ass anyway. The racial BP cost alone is absolutely prohibitive. I also don't like that it's practically impossible to adequately build a free spirit character that would have the same or vaguely similar stats to a NPC free spirit- it's as if the rules would represent two entirely different entities.

>>9447957

Ugh, I can identify with that, fuck free spirits. Possession I could just about tolerate on a mage, it has some cheap tricks but in a way you lose some utility from summoning spirits by being possession based so it almost evens out the fact you can make yourself a killing machine that can ignore most bullets and potentially punch through walls.

>>9448065

Strange how little you get to use PLAN B sometimes though. When things go well, the group combat monster usually gets a bit bored (though a smart player doing this role will build him with other utility beyond murder machine) but when things go horribly wrong you become very happy that 40 die soak pool troll with heavy weapons is around to offer his unique skills.

>>9448187
Hey, killing every last motherfucker in the room is a viable solution sometimes. Just gotta get a job where that's the right answer to the question.

I'd just like to say that I'm astounded this thread lasted so long. Holy crap. One more shameless self bump.

Hurp. Forgot my namefag. Polite sage aktivert.

I'm glad this thread has stayed up too. I'm playing my first game of Shadowrun this week, so getting to read a lot about the system is making me excited.

So that I actually contribute to this thread: As I said, I'm a newbie. For a brand new characters, how large should your dice pools be? I'm worried that my attempts to diversify my character are going to mean he won't be good enough at his specialty.

>>9449907
Depends on his speciality.
It's a lot harder to get extra dice for shooting things than for social skills. Keep in mind that directly increasing your attributes and skills is usually less cost-effective than using ware and/or magic.

>>9449907
Average human norm for someone good at their job is 3s in all their attributes, and 3 or 4 in whatever their key job skills are. So six to eight dice is human average. Most runners can range anywhere from eight to 20+ dice on a test, depending on circumstances, skills, abilities, and gear. Somewhere around 15 is what I'd call average.