Who is the greater player? Obviously not just during highschool, because while Kobe is among the greatest of all time, LeBron was on an entirely different level.
This thread is made every single fucking day.
inb4 a million faggots that never watched Kobe even during his first three-peat shitting out nonsense from their finger tips
ITT: 5 rings = 0 rings
>>21527493You're a tool if you think 00-02 was a long time ago. Great job projecting your own age.
>>21527493>Kobe even during his first three-peathis?
Kobe has more, but he's had more to work with.If I had to take one CURRENTLY, I'd take LBJ. If I had to take one in their prime, assuming LBJs highest season averages was his prime, I'd take Kobe.
>>21527515It was ten years ago, you fucking red-assed retard. Ten years ago half the posters on this shitty site were 8-12 years old, fagnut.>hurrf durrfQueer.
>>21527562watch kobe 31 points in the second half game 3 against the spurs in 2002 when shaq was hurt
>>21527636>Finals MVPs w/ Shaq: 0
no 8 afro kobe, is better than MJ
>>21527422kobe's pretty good, he was only 10 assists away from a double double the other night
>>21527562>yfw you realize >shaw was the original "I asked Lebron for change for a dollar and he only gave me back three quarters" guyHack-a-shaq and shit-tier freethrows were the reason the fourth quarter was Kobe Time.
>>21527513Jesus Christ this argument is retarded. By this logic Derek Fisher > LeBron
kobe = jordanlebron = magicboth sound choices, but for my moneys worh i'd take kobe - he has that ruthless assassin which cannot be taught
>>21527636Wow, one good game in 3 best of seven series'. Impressive.
>>21527764Look fag, it's clear you never watched any of those games. There are only two fan-bases the recognize and are comfortable admitting to Kobe's exploits on the court: Spurs fans and Lakers fans.Spurs fans won enough against Kobe to feel comfortable admitting he kicked their asses during that three-peat. Lakers fans remember Kobe destroying the Kings, Blazers, and Wolves as well, but those fan-bases are still too butthurt to admit it.
>>21527709it's insulting to Jordan to put Slowbe anywhere near him and it's insulting to LeBron to put Magic anywhere near him
>>21527709>Ruthless assassin>Awful in clutch shooting situations>Clearly not knowing what the equals sign means
>>21527629It was still not a long time ago. Period. Everyone on this board was old enough to appreciate the 3 peat. If not, they have no business here. Even 10 year olds are old enough. It's sports.
>>21527985Ten year olds still believe Santa Clause is real, dude.Just stop.Take solace in the knowledge that the retarded shit posted on this site is just a product of ignorance and not an actual lack of intelligence.
>>21528075Your parents let you believe in Santa until you were 10? How retarded are you?
>implying lebron belongs on a top players list without a ring
>>21528136Retarded enough to keep responding to some idiot that can't admit he's made an ass of himself on an anonymous image board.You're right. Ten year olds remember events and accomplishments with clarity. Now go back to jamming ten-inch dildos up your ass, homo.
>>21528176>implying you're not talking to different people>implying you're not so mad you keep on throwing insults while pretending to be an adult
>>21528175This logic is still moronic. You people consistently imply that anyone with a ring > LeBron.
>>21528203>implying I'm not ten years old>implying you haven't been getting your proverbial ass handed to you by a ten year old>implying you know shit about sportsKeep dreaming, kid. Now where's my red fire truck I got from Santa last year....
>>21528235I don't think everyone with a ring is better than Lebron. I just think if he was as good as some people say he is he'd have won one by now
>>21528175>>21528235Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, Nash, etc are all pure garbage and have no place on a top player list.Also, Oscar Robertson, until Kareem came was garbage. Kidd? Garbage. Needed Dirk at the tail end of his playing days.
>>21528266but none of those people in your first line of text are top ten players. you're sort of proving his point
>>21528329His career is not even remotely finished. He's 27. Are you retarded?
>>21528235You can't claim Lebron's taking a shitty Clovland team to the Finals as an accomplishment, then bristle when someone counts his zero championship rings against him.His lack of rings is a product of his failure to lead a team to the Championship. YOu can rationalize it by claiming he had awful teammates, but the fact remains he wasn't able to "carry his team to a championship" then way you claim he "carried his team to the Finals."He's had multiple opportunities to carry his team to the Finals and to Championships, but has choked them away miserably for everyone to see.It's not even up for debate. Lebron is a pussy when the game is on the line and he's at risk of taking the blame for failing. Wade did it last year, too, against Dallas (inb4 gif of Wade tippy-toeing after choking on a potentially game-tying free throw).What did Magic do in those situations? Rookie year carried his team to the title after Kareem got hurt. Played five positions in the NBA Finals to win the title. Baby skyhook with the game on the line. Clutch as fuck.
A guy who relies on his bigs for all hi success of a guy who has never had a top 5 talent on his team aside from last season forth.Hmm....
>>21528370>clutch>chokingI'm more about sample size, I really don't care if a player "wins" and "leads his team to victory". A great player doesn't need rings, a great leader does. I never imagine to call LeBron a great leader
>>21528440the two championship teams kobe led have not been that great. andrew "where my crutches at" bynum and artest when he decides to hit shots where the best players after gasol who liked to wilt in crunch time. honestly you act like kobe has had hall of famers the gap isn't as large as everyone makes it seem and i don't even like either of them
>>21527422I bet LeBron never thought, in a million years, that he'd be balding before he was 30.
>>21528477Sure, but how do we measure performance? Based on what's at stake. It's easy enough to score forty in a game during the regular season that a rookie did it this year.Game 7 with a trip to the Finals on the line and you choke on free throws? Not a great player. Great accomplishments and outstanding numbers, but not a great player.
>>21527493>first threepeat>a second threepeatok idiot
>>21528570I'm sorry, but I keep reading this to try and make sense of it, but I keep laughing. I'm sorry I can't respond appropriately.
Lebron is clearly better. Kobe is too inefficient and he's not even the best at the only thing he's exceptional at (only 1 scoring title). Lebron is superior at every category from scoring to passing to rebounding. (inb4 rings, that's a team achievement, Lebron's still better).
>>21528621>score 100 points during first three quarters>wow best player ever>score zero points in fourth when game is on the line>wow he sucks>but he scored 100 points in the game, so he's greatThat's what your arguments amount to.
>>21528682Kobe choked away two straight games in the Thunder series and his "clutch" persona's already been proven to be bullshit by any sensible metric. What are you trying to argue?
>>21528713That's he's getting old. The fact that everyone with a mic in their face sounded astonished that Kobe choked as hard as Lebron in close games should clarify for you what the difference is.Kobe was monster during the three-peat during clutch situations. He was clutch the next three years after that as well. He's falling off now, but that "falling off" level is actually Lebron's peak.Get this straight, Lebron has choked in close games in the playoffs like nobody in the history of the game. The fact you have blocked that out of your mind shows how desperately committed you are to hyping Lebron to levels that don't warrant it.
>>21528635kobe has two scoring titles.
>>21528786>volume shooting
>>21528773Lebron has choked in the Finals is actually the more accurate statement. In the other rounds, he's generally above average. What made last year's Dallas flop more pronounced was the fact that he (and, to an extent, Wade) shut the door on the Bulls repeatedly in the ECF.Thanks for trying.Also, only Kobe can shoot 6-24 in a fucking game 7 of the NBA finals and still have his fans sucking his dick. Don't give me that shit. And stop making up facts. The numbers are pretty clear. I get that it's easy to make up bullshit arguing on the internet, but Kobe's never been an efficient player.
>>21528635Kobe is a much better halfcourt player than LeBron. The reason why LeBron is more efficient is because he's had wing players to run out with him to get easy dunks. If Kobe had that, he would have the same efficiency numbers, but he was always playing with a center that takes easy points and assists away.Kobe is the greatest halfcourt player ever and if he had a Wade or Pippen running with him in his prime, he would have averaged 50% FG too.You have to slow the game down when playing with centers which means you have to take tougher shots.I wish I would have seen Kobe play with a great wing player. He only played with average ones. It would have been fun.
>>21528811>6-24 in game 7 >still third highest TS% on team behind Pau and Sasha "shoot wide open 3's and FT's" Vujacic
>>21528886>behind pauwhat a shocker
>>21528811Lebron hasn't just choked in one series, he's choked in multiple series. He choked against Bawwston while with cLeaveland (he blamed it on a bruised elbow, lol). He choked against Dallas last year. He's choked so often it's gotten to the point where announcers don't even deny it anymore. They just point to all the other stuff he did to help get his team in position for him to choke (lulz!).Not once, not twice, not three times, .... (you get the point).And Kobe's efficiency get go fuck itself as long as he helps the team win when it counts. Credit his teammates for getting him in position to win the games, if you want, but the win goes to Kobe. He had 7 game-winning baskets in the last 15 seconds of the game last year alone.Here's how it works: when critics lambast Lebron for choking, his fans point to his stats before he choked. When Kobe fans talk about Kobe's clutchness his critics point to his efficiency levels. One wins and kills in the clutch, the other shrinks away from the moment.
>>21528933>One wins and kills in the clutch, the other shrinks away from the moment.I assume the former is Lebron, and the latter Kobe? Considering who's still alive and has performed in the playoffs and all.
>>21528966Kobe choked this year, yes, we all know that. But one season does not a career or legacy make.Again, the announcers and TNT crew were astonished when they saw Kobe choke. Nobody is astonished when they see Lebron choke anymore because it's who he is.
>>21528933>only mention when he hasn't come through>not mention when he doesLike someone said, he destroyed the Celtics and the Bulls last year, and he was only below Chris Paul in PER in the 4th quarter this seasonLeBron has been a top player in the 4th quarter for awhile now, you faggots just jump on him anytime he misses a late shot, same way you all bust a nut when Kobe makes one but refuse to acknowledge that he misses a bunch
>>21528966So you're also saying you're 12 years old and haven't watched the playoffs until this year?
>>21529011The Celtics are washed up and The Bulls were like the Cavs of two years ago. Both weren't worthy playoff opponents and both teams proved it in their weak series play before Miami.Dallas was the only worthy playoff team Miami played and it showed.
>Kobe>among the greatest of all timePick one.
>>21527493>first three-peatHe has zero three-peats. Only Jordan has a three-peat. He got three in a row. And by that, I mean Shaq got three in a row.
>>21529011Yeah, he was bailed out against Bawston by Wade, so he didn't have to clutch-up and choke. He got past the Bulls with one single star on its team.Lebron NEEDS Wade because he is petrified of being in the clutch. He'll score and get assists leading up to the moment, but will defer to Wade when it counts (and Wade choked last year to make it even more funnier).Great numbers leading up to his spectacular chokes.
>>21527895I agree with you on the first point, but Magic was on LeBron's level.
>>21529040>oh shit someone just brought up indisputable instances of lebron being clutch>I know, I'll say those teams were shit, albeit they were in the conference finalsI'll take this to mean that after Lebron does everything and gets 100 rings and scores 1000 points per game people will start saying "well he never faced the '96 Bulls so he still fucking sucks"
>faggots arguing that Kobe choked this year, so that means Lebron is better>Kobe has rings>Lebron doesn'tlel
>>21529064Do you know why they call Kobe the closer? It started during that dynasty when he would take over in the 4th quarter because of the hack-a-shaq and shaq getting tired as shit because he was fat and lazy.They both deserve equal credit for their threepeat, especially because they always combined for 50 points together in every game. It's like with Wade and Lebron now. You needed both to win because the bench was pedestrian.
>>21529064>Only Jordan has a three-peat. He got three in a row. And by that, I mean Shaq got three in a row.so three-peat ≠ three in a row?
>>21529115http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI
>>21529115>lakers 3peat bench>pedestriandisniggasrs
>>21527895I agree with you on the first point, but Magic was on LeBron's level.>>21528266Seriously? Jason Kidd is garbage and needed Dirk? He was great way before Dirk ever came along. Yeah, he's garbage now. He's also old as shit now. And at this age, sure, he needed Dirk. Kidd was assist leader 5 times, all while getting 15ish points and over 2 steals alongside 7 boards a game. Kidd was a fucking monster long before he ever played with Dirk.
ITT: No one understands that 3-peat means 3 in a row TWICE OVER. Fucking plebs.
>>21529171>Three-peat is a contraction of the words three and repeat, which has been trademarked for commercial use by retired basketball coach Pat Riley; the active trademarks in force are registered under numbers 1552980, 1878690, and 1886018. (A fourth registration, #1977620, expired in 2003.) It is used either as a verb or noun used in American sports to refer to winning a third championship in a row.but no
>>21529144Deavon George?Samaki Walker?Mark Madsen? Ring a bell? Of course it doesn't because they practically didn't exist. Also, Fisher and Horry were really clutch, but they were never considered good during the threepeat. Their play was never consistent.
>>21529186You're right. I always thought it was a special term coined to refer to Jordan's feat. The more you know.
>>215291713peat means 3 in a row. That's it. No repeating it twice over, you tool.
kobe was clutch but choked this year sure whateverlebrons only clutch moments were hitting that 3 against orlando a few years back and that game where he tookover vs the pistons. There's a difference between beating up on indiana in the conference semifinals and beating a team like the spurs in the finals.The fact that lebron has come up wanting so many times when he plays in the shitty east (whos only decent teams the last decade have been the celtics and pistons) and got his ass handed to him both times he reached the finals 0-4 spurs, 2-4 mavs just show how he disappears in big time moments. The monumental collapse against the mavs just show it, guy is not good under pressure. Jordan would NEVER have let last years finals happen like that, neither would kobe.You all know it too, just to busy bandwagoning the heat to admit it
>>21529079>Lebron scoring 6 straight points during a pacers rally last night>Leading all players in 4th quater playoff points this year>LebronPick All
>>215292536 straight points in the last 2 min
I always remember Shaq and Kobe combining for monster totals and outscoring their team during the threepeat. They did it as a duo and they were considered a ying and yang.All this revisionist history crap happened after Shaq left and everybody turned on Kobe. Shaq won a title afterwards and people said Kobe never won without shaq and that bullshit, but he proved everybody wrong and actually won more rings than that.
>>21529251Wow, first time i've ever heard someone say this. So much OC in this post guys. Can't believe all these great points! Amazing>Original thoughts
>>21529293Never won one without fisher>GTFO
>>21529330Fisher has been shit since 2008. It was the last year he could be taken seriously as a contributor.
>>21529171You're an idiot.
>>21529293Typical conversation with kobe hater:>kobe sucks in the playoffs!!!! shaw was finals mvp!!!Yeah but kobe got those other finals mvps>Those dont count!!!! pau! pau!
Sigh, if you want to rate players based on amount of championships, do it with non-team sports.
>>21527985>If not, they have no business hereUh, why? I didn't watch niggerdrama then and I don't watch it now. To be honest anyone who supports such a god awful sport has no business here.
>>21529313>how dare you make an on topic post!!!Mad as fuck
>>21529348The finals MVP is a vastly overrated achievement. It's about the whole playoffs culminating to the finals. That's how you should be judged, especially when the east was so bad back then it would be stupid not to go to Shaq with those shitty big men he was up against.The real finals were when the Lakers played The Spurs, The Trailblazers and The Kings and that's when both Kobe and Shaq were needed at their best. If anybody watched game 7 of the Trailblazers WCF, you would know that they wouldn't have won without Kobe. He stepped it up and led the team in points. Shaq was no where to be found which doesn't mean he sucks, it just meant Kobe was crucial to that victory. They both needed each other.
>>21529387Yeah you're exactly right I was just pointing out the ridiculous logic of some people
>>21529356Basketball is vastly different that Baseball and Football where the entire team counts and things could screw up in several phases.With basketball, you have the ball in your hand and only you can screw it up with your decision making. Yes, the team concept is important, but more often than not, you need to win with one or two superstars.Oh, and baseball is luckshit anyways. Also, football is a one game exhibition for playoffs. NBA playoffs is grueling and you need your leaders to rise up to the occasion.
>LeBron not having a ring despite playing in the times of all star fouls and NBA fixing their games for viewsYea Kobe's, better
>>21529387Okay, but if you want to talk about the whole playoffs culminating in the finals, James has made it there. Twice. Once with fucking Cleveland. And he's still only 27 and has never had a team nearly as good as the one Kobe had from 2000-2002 when he won.
>>21529457come on bro, wade and bosh are no chumps
>>21529457put the 2007 Cavs in the western conference and they don't make it out of the first round.
LeBron has a 28/8.5/7 playoff career and people still give him shit about not winning championships. Fuck off, seriously. What do you want him to do? Average 40/15/15? He's one fucking guy.
>>21529496No they give him shit because those stats all come in the first three quarters.
>>21529496Because he's a had a 19.3/7/6 finals statline where he's only shot 43%.Lebron is a front runner and he looks great until he faces a team with a pulse.You have to win at least one championship to be considered a great playoffs performer or the question marks will always be there.
>Lebron couldn't win with Dwayne fucking Wade and Chris Bosh against the worst title winners in NBA history, and the worst team out of the West in well over a decade There is no excuse for this and there never will be.Lebron literally had to do ANYTHING but give an F performance in the Finals. He didn't have to be a superster, a star, just a role player. And he failed at that.
>>21529523Kobe's Finals stats are just as terrible, if not more so and it's crickets.
>>2152954325/5/5 on 41 percent shooting
>>21529543Refer to>>21529534Like he said, Kobe wasn't playing as an all star, just playing a team game.There is no excuse for Lebron not having a ring with two of the biggest all stars who get the whistle blown and their balls licked every game by the refs.
>>21529543I just want to ask, did you watch the series against Orlando in the Finals three years ago? Just want a simple yes or no.
>>21529543He's had bad shooting % but he always averaged around 26 or 27PPG in the finals. Jordan also had bad shooting % in the finals, but he still rose to the occasion because he's a champion and not some bitch who bricks it then gets scared and passes it away.I'm not even going into how many turnovers Lebron was averaging in those finals. He lost his damn mind.
>>21529511I think someone pointed out above that he's one of the top 4th quarter players in the league, if not the top. If he chokes on a final play, it's only because he put his team in the position to even have that chance in the first place. But truly he doesn't choke the way people would have you believe. His FT% does drop a bit, and yeah, he'll pass to a wide open teammate instead of taking a contested shot. That's not cowardice, it's court-vision and basketball IQ.
>>21529557Makes Iverson look like a god.
>>21529590Him being one of the top players in the 4th quarter means shit when it comes down to it, depends what teams he's playing while getting that and what the score is. He has proven time and time again, when the game is close and they're not up on the score he clams up and ruins everything.
>>21529523Actually it was 18/7/7 on 48%. You act like that's bad or something. His turnovers were slightly high, but he was also had a huge target on his back and was facing an extremely tough defense. It shouldn't be surprising that his production would drop in a situation like that. This is why you need to have a team to rely on.
>>21529590>his FT% drops a bit lelAnd what games are you talking about? Regular season games or high pressure games? Because it's not that he is a bad 4th quarter player per se, it's he is a weak minded player who loses himself in the moment.
>>21529534>18/7/7>F performanceYou have to be fucking kidding me. Full retard.
>>21529666You're right. It's more of a Pippen performance.
>>21529681You mean one of the top 50 players of all time and a top 3 SF of all time? How horrible.
>>21529655>excusesIf Kobe had good wing players around him his FG% would have been better because less pressure would be put on him in the perimeter and he would have been able to move the ball up court. Also, he wouldn't have to slow down for the halfcourt set, thus settling for tougher shots.
I AM SO MAD THAT THIS STILL A THREADFIVE RINGS vs 0 RINGS.
>>21529712He also would have more assists because guys would be hitting their jump shots. It's hard to get assists when you pass it to a center since he will be posting up.
What about when Lebron closed out the Bulls and Celtics in the playoffs last season? Was that not clutch? There was a lot of pressure on him in those games.
>>21529695It is horrible when you are comparing him to Jordan and Kobe.....and even Pippen since he has six championships.
>>21529738What about when Kobe played a great series against The Spurs, The Kings and the Trailblazers and then WON a championship. What about those pressure situations(more pressure because they were tougher teams)?
>>21529743You're a fucking tool if your entire argument rests on rings and shit. I mean, HE WILL GET SOME. Then what? What will your new excuses me? He chocked by himself while carrying garbage to the best record in the league over and over again?
>>21529743Someone was just talking about Kobe going 25/5/5 in a finals series. How is that not roughly equivalent to 18/7/7 with better shooting percentage?People are too obsessed with scoring.And I guess Robert Horry is better than Jordan now too.
>>21529775>when/if>in the future>not right nowThen why are we having this stupid argument right now? Oh, because Lebron fans are tools and are basing things on future performance?
>>21529769Where did I mention Kobe in that post? I'm saying that LeBron has shown signs of clutchness, just not in the finals.
>>21529785And honestly, I'd take 18/7/7 on 48% over 25/5/5 on 41% every fucking day of the week.
>>21529785>The Horry argumentYeah, the ones troll use. Horry has never been considered a top 50 player in any of the years he played in the league, even in his prime. Is Mark Madsen better than Lebron? No, because only a moron would base things on numbers instead of watching games.
Stop worshipping Jordan. It's pathetic.
>>21529804What if the latter got you championships and the former got you knocked out because he didn't do shit and froze in the 4th?I need to pull the Lebron stats in the last quarter of last year's finals. Those are always fun to use.But yeah, let's base everything on FG% because that's the end all be all. It completely tells the story.Fucking John Hollinger has ruined watching the game. Nobody ever goes back and looks at videotape.
>>21529813But the Horry argument is EXACTLY the argument people use when they give LeBron shit about not having a ring yet. He's led two teams to the finals. One was fucking Cleveland. He puts up monster numbers in the postseason. The fact that he has no rings is NOT his fault. Swap him for Jordan or Kobe on their championship teams. Swap him for Magic or Bird on theirs. He'd win with teams like those. If you don't believe that, you aren't being objective.
>>21529803>Where did I mention Kobe in that post?Look at the thread you are posting in.
>>21529857>talk about objectivity>bring up subjective "what if" scenarios Oh, and Lebron and Shaq would have made terrible teammates because they both stunk in the 4th quarter. Also, Lebron's FG% would have gone down because Shaq would have clogged up the lane and demanded the ball.
>>21529860That particular post had nothing to do with Kobe though. I was arguing against the people that are saying LeBron has no clutch moments or is unclutch.
>>21529857You're doing pretty much what all LeBron haters are doing, but backwards. They place all the blame on him where is you seem to place NO blame on him at all. That's fucking ridiculous.
>>21529815>Love how most on twitter are younger than 25 but experts on jordan>implying contemporary experts on the renaissance are 500 years old
Lebron has ruined the game because it no longer matters if you win rings as long as you grab some rebounds and get some assists in the first couple of quarters.Go back and watch that Dallas series and tell me he didn't choke everything away.
>>21529883>>21529883Fine. Shaq in particular might not be the perfect complement to LeBron's playing style. Not really the point at all. The point is that LeBron hasn't had a chance to play with a team as good as the ones those guys had.If you want to argue that the Heat are just as good, then fine. He's had one chance with them and made it to the finals. But let's just be honest and say the Heat are not as good as those teams were anyhow. It's not a complete enough team.
>>21529909>Lebron has ruined the game because it no longer matters if you win rings as long as you grab some rebounds and get some assists in the first couple of quarters.This is exactly how it should always have been. Championships are nice for teams and fans, it is in no way dispositive of player's ability or "greatness".
>>21529947> it is in no way dispositive of player's ability or "greatness".How can winning the fucking CHAMPIONSHIP for your league not play a role in a player's greatness? This is some new generation's outlook on the game, I guess, trying to make up for the fact that LeBron hasn't won anyone. This shit didn't start getting spouted until recently with LeBron's issues in big games. Why even have a championship? According to you people all that matters is regular season statistics. Just play 82 games, hand out an MVP and do the offseason.
>>21529901You're right. I'm not going to blame a guy for having ONE series where he didn't put up an absolutely godlike performance. Because it's not fair to do so.The Mav's D had one thing on their mind: stop LeBron James. They didn't exactly do that, but they slowed him down a bit, yeah. That's what teammates are supposed to be for. As was pointed out, he still put up Pippen numbers. 18/7/7 on 48% shooting is fucking beast, no matter how you slice it.
>>21529930I don't think they have a "complete" team either but they definitely have the talent around them to win it all. Wade has won a championship too.Heat aren't as good as the Bulls were, but I think the Bulls faced tougher competition.I also don't think they are winning it this year, so we will have to wait next year to see if the experiment will work.
>>21529967There are plenty of all-time greats who never won rings. Even Wilt, who was an absolute unstoppable monster, ran up against the better TEAM that was the Celtics, and only ended up with 2 rings.
>>21529994No one is saying guys like Wilt aren't great or even LeBron, but stop trying to argue that championships really don't mean anything.
>>21529978The Bulls faced tougher competition? The 90's was one of the weakest eras due to the late 80's expansion watering down the league.
>>21529967Go critique a non-team sport if you want a championship to define the athlete affiliated. The only awards that "matter" in relation to single players in team sports are MVPs.
>>21529974He looked like anything but a beast in those 4th quarters. That's why they lost the series. >>21529994That's not fair. Those Celtics teams stopped EVERYBODY because they were stacked high. You won't see that anymore because the league is more diverse and you can't hold your players hostage.
>>21530031So you honestly believe a player winning a championship means NOTHING. Only regular season stats matter? Good God what a fucking shitty outlook on the game, that type of thinking would absolutely ruin a league. I can't begin to express how pathetic I view you. If you're trying or you're going to gloat about making me mad, then go right ahead, because yes, 10/10, I mad.
>>21530009They aren't a fair way to compare two players. You need to factor in way too many things:The teamThe opposition teamsLuck (yes, there's such a thing as luck in basketball. one bad call can ruin a game. one injury can ruin a season (see: Derrick Rose))It would be a valid argument if LeBron regularly performed poorly in the postseason. But he doesn't. He fucking beasts the postseason. He had ONE series in which he performed lower than his own incredibly high standards.
>>21530009Derek Fisher has 5 rings. Would you rather have him on your team or LeBron?
>>21530031So Steve Nash is a top ten great?regular season MVPs are not that meaningful because the regular is not as important as the playoffs. Teams try harder in the playoffs. Look at the Spurs the last decade.
>>21530063Championships act as an enhancer. Guys like Fisher or Robert Horry gain notoriety for winning championships. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Russell become legends because of their championships. That's just how it works.
>>21530064There's still the question of how well deserved the MVPs are. Nash would be a top 10 great if there was only one side to the court.Nash honestly didn't really deserve those MVPs. There were better candidates.
>>21530054He's had two bad series in the playoffs if you count both finals and three if you count the Celtics in 2009.The one truly great series he's had where he did put up beast numbers like you say was the Orlando series, and they set it up that way. They gave him the path to the lane while attacking their weaker players. It worked perfectly and they won, but that's about strategy.But a great playoffs performance is not complete until you win a championship. Just ask Jordan in the 80s.Also, even though basketball is a team sport doesn't mean a few players can't drastically change the outcome. It is very different from football and baseball.
>>21530051No, I'm saying that it's idiotic to judge a player based on how many championships their "team" has won.... Championships are for teams. MVPs are for players. You're saying the entire league depends on the championship, which is fine, but you also imply that the league hinges on a couple players.You call me pathetic, but honestly, I find your inability to at least understand what I say far more embarrassing and pathetic than you find me.>>21530074holy shit that's funny
>>21530108One series? Dude his playoff career averages are out of this world.
>>21530064>>So Steve Nash is a top ten great?>"matter"
>>21530124The league does hinge on a couple players. Not like it's a good thing, but it's true.
>>21530054Well yea there's no denying hes a great fucking player but when it comes down to it you cant be the greatest if you choke and cant be a beast when it truly matters.Fuck this attitude man, gotta have everything to be the best.
>>21529947Except that's complete bullshit.When do players earn their names? During preseason games? Regular season? No. Post season. In the clutch when playing against the best teams in the league. When it matters most and your teammates devolve to playing like mediocre players and depend on you to bail them out. And what has Lebron done in those moments? Choked. Only since Lebron has massively choked has the argument that performance in the most critical point of a game, in the most important games of the season, doesn't matter.
>>21530129When he faces shitty leastern conference teams, yes.
>People ridicule MJ for playing in a "bad" decade>Ignore how fucking awful this decade has been with LeBron dominating (to an extent)
>>21530150I don't see how a playoff career of 28/8.5/7 amounts to "massively choking." Or repeatedly getting the Cavs deep into the playoffs.You're remembering a game here and there, or the series with the Mavs, but being completely unfair to his postseason career.
>>21530129The only reason why Kobe doesn't have 28/7/7 average for the entire playoffs is because he played his first two years as a bench player. He didn't get nearly enough minutes. Lebron has the ball in his hands all the time when he got in the playoffs. Of course he will rack up the stats, especially in the eastern conference.
>>21530211>>21530211It might have more to do with Kobe never getting 7 assists or 7 rebounds.
>>21530243I'm wrong. He cracked 7 rebounds. Once.
>>21529655It's 43% if you count his shitty performance in the 2007 NBA finals. People are counting all of Kobe's finals performances. They should do the same for Lebron.
>>21530259Good for LeBron, dude is sickly talented. Of course he's going to get more rebounds, he's bigger and plays forward. Kobe, MJ for that matter, are shooting guards. That plays a role in it.
Kobe first round losses: 2LeBron first round losses: 0Just sayin.
>>21530259It's hilarious how Kobe's only comparable in terms of scoring and even then, he usually pales. He's flashier and way more talented in terms of scoring but LeBron does his far more efficiently. Duncan was a better scorer than Shaq in terms of ability but was nowhere near him in terms of putting the ball in the net.
>>21530271It's 48%:http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=nowitdi01&p2=jamesle01
>>21530282Kobe Rings: 5LeBron Rings: 0Just sayin.
>>21530299He shot 35.6% in the finals in '07 through four gamesHe shot 47.8% in the finals in "11 through six gamesIt around 43%. Get it right.
>>21530271Misread you. And the 25/5/5 number isn't just finals for Kobe. Someone would have to go ahead and compile that. I don't know how you can count 2007 against James. His team was fucking awful. You're going to have a shitty performance when your team is massively outclassed like that. The discussion at the time was about the Mavs series which is the only series you can say LeBron "should have won," although that's not even true.
>>21530282western conference > leastern conferencePretty much every year since Jordan retired from the Bulls except when The Pistons were good for two years and Celtics championship year, but those were two teams. The rest sucked. >>21530287
>>21530362Yes. 25/5/5 are his finals stats.http://forums.hoopshype.com/forums/index.php?topic=56895.0
>>21530342To be fair you're averaging 4 games with 6 games. To do it right you should do it by total shots. Probably comes out to 44 or 45% which is pretty respectable especially when in the 2007 series he was literally the only option.
>>21530377>>21530362blah, blah, his team stunk in 2007. Kobe was 21 and hurt during the Pacers series but he still pulled off a great game 4 in Shaq's absence.Kobe would have wiped the floor with those Cavs teams even on his shitty Lakers teams. The leastern conference was a joke.
>>21530377Dallas series he went 43/90 47.8Spurs series he went 32/90 35.675/180 = 41.6%He has shot 41.6% in the finals. Same as Kobe.
lebron's FGM/FGA over his two finals appearances comes out to 75/18041.6 percent
>>21530460>>21530464LeBronfag status: TOLD
>>21530243>>21530259>Hurrr, Kobe had great big men, and that is why he won champions hip>But why doesn't Kobe get more rebounds tho? >Implying those bigs didn't get the rebounds.Kobe's always been a great rebounder for his position, but he does play sg.And stop comparing FG% to FG%. Compare their TS%. The difference isn't as big as FG% portrays.
>>21530517lebron's playoff TS is 56.3 percentkobe's is 54.1.
>>21530282Kobe Bryant seasons played in Western Conference: 16LeBron James seasons played in Western Conference: 0East is a babby conference, there is zero competition.
I know this is a super delayed reply, but I had to sleep. Anyhow fine, LeBron shot 41.6%. He also had to carry the offensive load for Cleveland in a way Kobe never, ever had to with the Lakers. That shit's not good for your FG%.And seriously, stop with the Leastern Conference shit. Yeah, the conference is weaker and has been for a while. No, that doesn't mean there's "no competition." The Lakers lost to the C's in 2008 and then barely beat them (refball) in 2010, no? LeBron was also PLAYING FOR CLEVELAND for most of his career. If I wanted rings, I'd rather play on the Lakers and face the West than play on fucking Cleveland and play the East. Wouldn't you? And if you say no, you're an idiot.
