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>khan

Inb4 teaching calculus at a younger age.

How to reform education in two easy steps:

1- Set productive and competitive standards for what must be taught.
2- Give incremental tax credits to parents of students that make passing grades, with the credit increasing as GPA increases.

Thus, education teaches what it needs to teach, and parents are forced by economic self interest to make their kids study and achieve.

theoretical physics at age 3

>>3623371
and probability, more applicable

All Religion is now taught in History

>>3623374

To expound on this idea, give a merit-based grant in college to students that earn a high GPA in high school and maintain it in college, at least for certain fields that will help their society's economy, like the sciences or education.

Here's my idea that I just now came up with:

Guys: you get to have sex if you convince everybody that you are doing the best you can. With hot, professional, clean, young women.

Girls: you get to not be one of the aforementioned girls regardless of how you look.

It lacks incentive for unnatractive girls to study... but come on, do they need any?

I dont think it should be public.

Publicly funded/mandated high school has just meant the quality of education in high school diminished and now the expectation to go to college is higher. Which has diminished the quality of college too.

It could be argued that if there are educated people in society then society is better and so education should be subsidized. I could agree to that. For the sake of fairness everyone should have the opportunity to go to school.

Make it non-mandatory. Force kids to choose to be there or else get a job.

>>3623365
Khan Academy is a good example of how education should work in the information age.

We should have self guided courses that have video game like rewards.

>>3623374

>Tax payer money goes to only those with children.
>Incentives for having more children.

This isn't a good idea.

Don't chastise children for poor test scores because you're just going to discourage them. If a child is performing poorly, the should get special attention and tutoring. They shouldn't be told they're failing or be held back because they'll stop trying and they'll hate learning.

>>3623387
Wrong, you make me weep for the future.

Children should be beaten with sticks if they can't succeed

>>3623385
You don't think everyone should at least be required to learn how to read and perform basic math operations?

>>3623393
Right, because that works so well...

>>3623388

I agree. The standards and metrics in school are total bull.

>>3623394

I mean I think its a good idea to learn how to read and perform basic math. I dont know, I dont think you need the government to force you to do that.

>>3623398
Its called operant conditioning and it is highly successful

>>3623389
Also, stop telling children that intelligence is innate and that they either have a talent for a subject or they don't. Because this is not true and it makes children give up because they don't see any point in trying if it's "just something they're not good at".

>>3623388

Well I didn't say the idea was perfect, but I think there should be an incentive for parents to get involved in helping their kids achieve in school, and you only have two choices really: the carrot and the stick.

>>3623404
Not very well. You can't squeeze blood from a stone, and you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

>>3623402
I do. Society has an incentive not to want retards who can't read write or multiply running around free. You need a basic education, and the government should force you to get it.

>>3623415

Do you think if the government just stopped existing the next generation of people wouldnt learn how to read or do basic math?

>>3623411
You can if that stone is a child, also pic related

Teach kids how to teach themselves and how they best learn.

>>3623422
Oh god take it back to hippy town.

>>3623420
Enough would that it would be detrimental to society, yes. Enforced learning is a good thing. It's bad enough that we don't even have enough skilled workers to fill half of the job openings in America. That is one of the reasons unemployment is so high.

>>3623420

Not the person you're debating the point with, but yes, many would. I know for a fact that many parents in the area where I live (the south) base their decision to make their kids go to school on when they can legally stop going. In other words: if there's not a requirement and punishment for the parents here, a lot of parents won't give a shit, as long as those AFDC checks keep coming.

>>3623421
Operant Conditioning using only punishment for failure isn't the most effective or reliable method of getting desired results from a human being. Sorry, but you fail at psychology.

Hypnoisis and Electro shock

>>3623435
I didn't say ONLY use punishment, don't assume bitch. Obviously we'd have positive feedback as well. If you score in the top quarter of the class you get an extra scoop of gruel

>>3623428
>Enforced learning is a good thing

no
thats why like 90% of the kids hate school
if its forcee, they will hate it

>>3623435

Side question: Is it possible for a person to use operant conditioning on themselves?

>>3623428
>>3623433

Hmm. Well, okay, I guess I have to admit SOME amount of people will stop learning how to read or do basic math. Maybe more than I would suspect.

How about a new question. Do you think those people should be forced to get an education?

>>3623444

Next time, make that clear, and i won't have to assume you mean exactly what you say.

>>3623446

Who cares, as long as they get enough of an education to sign contracts and balance a checkbook? I know, I know... There's a shit load of adults that can't balance a check book. these should be shot.

>>3623446
I just said yes. Everyone should be forced to obtain a minimal education of some sort.

>reforming education

let supply and demand along with entrepreneurship determine it.

they're way better at using resources efficiently than i or any central authority could ever be.

>>3623420

I think large portions of it wouldn't. Hell, look at a large portion of society a few years out of highschool now, functionally illiterate in both reading and mathematics. Don't need to know how to manipulate numbers when computers (or the McDonalds cash register) does it for you. If there were no public schools, many of these people's children would never be introduced to math or reading. Hell, look at some of the creationist homeschoolers now, they actively disseminate false information and pseudo science, and these people are BETTER than most, because they are actively teaching their children! I think many children without public school would be simply neglected, and never taught.

Also, for those of us talking about forced education, so far we have only talked about basic reading and math. What about high school level education, or even middle school? Does that make a difference to anyone?

>>3623473
nope.

forced education doesn't make sense to me at all. if some dumbass doesn't want to read he doesn't have to. he won't be able to function and he'll end up dying.

and it wouldn't be my fault.

>>3623473
Generally I think the more educated people are, the better off we all are, but I realize there comes a point where some people are just too stupid to succeed. If there is a point when mandatory education should no longer be enforced, it should be based upon that, instead of an arbitrary one size fits all age level.

>>3623473

To be perfectly honest, beyond elementary school, forced education is just publicly subsidized day care. I know that view is unpopular, but it's true.

>>3623478
But it won't help you either. If someone can't read or do basic math, they aren't going to be very productive. That means a smaller economy, which hurts everyone.

imo they shouldnt force anything past 5th or 6th grade

>>3623484
That's why we're talking about reform. It may be like that in its current state, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Enforced education is good.

>>3623489
what part of "die off" don't you get?

he won't be able to get a job or do anything right?

>>3623500
So why do you let a child get into such a state? Does a child know better?

>>3623508
should i be responsible for all stupid parents?

you can believe that. i don't though.

To be honest,, someone being uneducated won't mean they die off. Our bleeding heart society will give them a free house and food for life, and even a disability check based on the fact the government failed to teach them anything.

>>3623500
They wont just die off. They'll turn to crime, become a homeless person, or get on some sort of welfare program.
Even if they do die, that is still lost productivity, which will hurt you economically.

Restructure of schools

K-4th grade elementary
4-9/10th (junior) high school

Now the changes

10-12 Primary school kind of like a pre-college thing, at this age you generally know what you want to do in life, so you, your parent, or guidance officer help you select courses to focus on what you want to be

For example, a lawyer would be wasting his time taking Trigonometry or calculus thus wasting school time when he could be learning Law, debate and public speaking. regular high schools almost have math mandatory all years of high school which is a waste if you already know what your going to do

After primary school you go on to regular college

>>3623518
>implying teenagers know what they want to do

>>3623518
So you just shifted college back a couple of years?

>>3623478

I agree

>>3623483

I can accept that educated people make society better. But at the same time, I dont want to force anyone to do anything the dont have to. So perhaps we can just subsidize private education.

>>3623484

I agree. I was such an angry kid in high school. The whole experience really sucked.

Its not like I wouldnt want to be educated. I think the system was designed in such a way that is failed horribly. I think a large part of that is that we were forced to go. Thus teachers are teaching to students who themselves have no standards about what they want.

>>3623374

As a corollary, how about a bad student tax? Base it on the amount of a drag an uneducated dipshit is on the economy, and charge parents for letting their students make Ds and Fs. This tax could pay for the tax break for having good students.

>>3623517
you've really no way to determine if the investment would be worth it for me.

if they did turn to crime, that's ok. we can kill them or imprison them.

>>3623528
What if it turns into a system where you have to pay to get education? What about the people who can't afford education for their kids? What do you do about that?

>>3623523
You would be surprised

>>3623527
and no, You would still be in high school/elementary school the same amount of years

>>3623528
You don't want to force someone to do something they don't want to do, but you should. Believe it or not, human development and prosperity is more important than individual liberty. Besides, people aren't rational self-interested actors until they're educated, so they don't deserve rights.

>>3623532
why don't you and everyone else that supports a public system just poor money into a pool and allow kids to use that to attend school?

or hell, build your own schools that rely on donations.

>>3623537
pour*

>>3623532

>What if it turns into a system where you have to pay to get education?

People will always have to pay for education. It costs time and resources and thus it costs money. Right now we are just obligated to pay taxes that pay for education.

>What about the people who can't afford education for their kids?

I think it would be a good idea to subsidize schools, so that they will always be available to people and cheap.

I guess that doesnt imply everyone can afford school, just that more people will be able to afford school. But maybe it isnt feasible to make sure every personcan get an education.

>>3623533
I mean you shifted the idea of college education back a couple years

>>3623532
DUH FWEE MAWKIT WILL FIX IT LOL! AYN RAND FTW!!!1!

>>3623543
the free market would fix it. the government is complete ass. spending $10k+ per student? hahaha wow.

>>3623536

>You don't want to force someone to do something they don't want to do, but you should. Believe it or not, human development and prosperity is more important than individual liberty. Besides, people aren't rational self-interested actors until they're educated, so they don't deserve rights.

I dont think going to school equates to development, or betterment. I also think that people do have rights regardless of how educated they are.

I also dont believe in this attitude that society is more important than the individuals, or the individuals purpose is to serve society.

>>3623537
Because it is in everyone's interest to have an educated society, therefore we should ALL be pooling our resources. You live in a society, you have to support it. If you want to enjoy the benefits of society, you gotta pay your dues, boy.

>>3623552
what, do you think you're going to go to school for 12 years for 10 bucks?

>>3623542
essentially

i just kinda split high school
i personally think my idea is pretty good as alot of the stuff we learn to day is useless outside of a career

>>3623559

Yes

>>3623555
I disagree. I think the individual is rather insignificant next to humanity as a whole. Typical economist, thinking the world is filled with rational actors. What a sad deluded life you lead.

>>3623563

I havent revealed any thoughts or opinions about how rational or irrational human beings are.

>>3623563
Not explicitly, no.

If I had to pick one way of reforming our education system it would be a move to vouchers.

The current US school system essentially creates compartmentalized monopolies. When you live in a school district you generally only get to pick from one school per grade range or pay out of pocket for a private school. There's no incentive to improve aside from mandated performance metrics.

Vouchers will improve the quality of the education without taking away the equal opportunity for education.

My Face When Bump

>>3623643
my face when the bump requires an extra bump

we dont need no
education

An extra bump for an extra good thread

advanced track for certain areas.

people are taking "college level" classes too late. if a child shows aptitude for a certain subject, they should be able to pursue it at a faster rate. there are plenty of children that can learn math up to calculus before their senior year of high school. but the same goes for other subjects. biology, chemistry, etc. many kids can learn this on a college level before they finish high school. they just need an opportunity

Encourage parents to read to their children, to take a more active role in their education. Some kids don't even know the alphabet when they start school, some kids don't know how to count higher than 10 or so. The absolute most important thing to do is to encourage parents to do this. I'm just trying to think of a cheap, effective incentive. You can't just pay them, it's already free through public libraries, advertising campaigns are high cost for low benefit most of the time.

>>3623604
That's nice, but I don't trust parents or the market any more than the state to choose good education. Any such system would have to have rigorous rules regarding publicizing the success of these students later in life, and thus would not be effective for a couple of decades. Unless we extrapolate from previous successes of techniques used by private schools and charter schools.

In that case, this seems pretty neat.

What does /sci/ think of prediction markets? I might put a little something together if I have the time.

Focus on teaching independence.

If you learn the ability to take your learning into your own hands, and you are shown how to self-teach, then high school students can just learn university material on their own.

Make it so rate of education is not constant, i.e. not every goes through the 13 years. However, don't be retarded and achieve this by accelerating kids, i.e. putting them into a social setting in which they are even -more- of an outcast.

One education for all = failure. This should be the case in elementary school, middle school should show some level of sorting based on ability, high school should be completely differentiated.

>>3623963

kids can do this now if they want, on their own.

However, they're going to have to repeat the courses in university in most cases (there are some opportunities to accelerate study once you get to university but for the most they won't make it easy).

I think education reform should start in universities and other institutions, and then trickle down. University is focused mainly on the grading, and not on learning material. School is thus like this also. Reforming secondary education directly probably won't be easy, but reforming post-secondary options and making secondary schools accommodate might work.

Money incentive does not work.

Experiments were done in this matter.

>>3624394

lol why would anyone expect it to?

>>3623604
you really think it's gonna help that much
broski?
it's not gonna cover school tax differences, bro
aka
it's gonna cause those who can afford it to go to the better public schools, and those who can't ...well they get fucked

I think we should lock children up for eight hours a day, except during summer when they are needed to help at home in the harvest, and give them a series of standardised tests are specific age related intervals which determine the future course of their education.

>>3623963
Exactly! Here in the UK I was learning to differentiate at age 15/16 because I was bright enough to start A levels a little early.

School until you learn to read, write and basic math.
After that no school required, you have to pass a set of exams to recieve the high school diploma, it doesn't matter when you take them the only condition is to pass them all before 18 years old. If you fail to pass them by that age (if you're not deficient ofc) then you get a small fine and 1 year more to pass them. You can acquire the diploma at any age before that and then you can apply to university or work as soon as you have it.