Well I always felt that the philosopher/scientist thing he, Oppenheimer, and Tyson today try to sell to the public is terribly disingenuous. I have a MS in Geology and only the oldest memebers of any department I've ever seen are like that. If you were educated after the 80s it's likely that you have nothing in common with the "high class" philosophy interested scientists of the earlier decades.

Scientist form the 40-70s: "I like Bach and think that I should work for the betterment of the human race. Nuclear weapons should be outlawed. War is bad."

Scientist post 80s: "I like ACDC. I love drilling for oil. 'Vespene Gas, I must acquire more of it.' Thermonuclear warheads are awesome and we should use them to launch space battleships. Project Orion 2 Electric Boogaloo Fuck Yeah!"

I honestly think the general population could get behind the crazy militaristic/imperialistic scientists of today more than the hippie leaning ones of previous generations. Less trying to instill wonder concerning the cosmos and nature, more mechanistic displays of humanity's might.

>>2154323
you are fucking retarded.
>>2154060
you too fuck nuts

>>2154323
Sagan supported Project Orion, partly as a way to get rid of all the nukes we've got lying around and partly because of the awesomeness of interstellar missions.

Where is this from OP?

>>2154345
>you are fucking retarded

Why, Sagan tried to popularize science and aliened a lot of people by bringing up philosophical stuff all the time. Are you telling me that an attempt to popularize science just based on interesting technology and human pride would do any worse?

>>2154370
I think he was just being a bit naive about humanity. I really wish that humanity could wonder at the cosmos and wish to explore, rather than going "Y U NO INVENT SPACE LAZOR!"

I think I've given up believing in humanity's capacity for true greatness.

>>2154350
He did in his original Cosmos stuff here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coi9LbuBZqo.

But latter he soured on it when it became obvious that the amount to stuff the orion drive could lift into LEO meant that you could send up rockin battleships, and he was adamantly, and incorrectly in my opinion, against the militarization of space. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rEa9ACC-TM

Protip with the sub kilton thermnuclear warheads they wanted to use, radiation was no longer an issue. There would be very little Sr, Ra, or Cs released since the initial fission charge was very small and the bombs had a lead casing and tamper instead of U238.

>>2154399
You mean moral greatness right?

Technological greatness is something we are still all about.

>>2154370
I think Sagan was naive on purpose, thought it better to have the population think of fantastical science things and thus funding compared to giving money to the church.

>>2154399
>humanity could wonder at the cosmos and wish to explore
>wish to explore
>wish to explore and conquer

Fixed that for you. If Cosmos would have been about resource extraction and the conquest of space then it might of had a bigger draw.

>>2154420
I guess you could put it that way. I'm just not a fan of the idea of humanity carrying on with its militaristic dicking about for the rest of time.

>>2154442
Hmm, I guess my instincts are different to normal people. I don't understand this desire for conquest that people seem to have. I'm all for using asteroids and lifeless planets for resources, though. If it's got multicellular life we either leave it alone or be all awesome and just hint it towards further development.

>>2154462
>If it's got multicellular life we either leave it alone or be all awesome and just hint it towards further development.

That's a little risky isn't?

First lets get this out of the way, Nuclear Pulse Propulsion can get us to the stars at a maximum velocity of 0.1C assuming that you have to decelerate again, if not you can reach 0.15C which will be important for latter. Also we will assume that there is no faster than light travel. Because that would open up another can of beans since humanity could convert an amount of mass equal to the observable universe into human flesh in 6,000 years if the 1994 population growth rate could be maintained. And it could be maintain if the superluminal travel would allow humans to access new resources fast enough.
So assuming that you could send out self replicating probes that would travel at an average velocity of 0.1C and that it would take each probe 100 years to make a 100 copies of itself each time that they entered a new stellar system, you could still visit every stellar in the Milky Way in under 1 million years. If theses probes carried humans or mechanized human descendants then our civilization could also spread as quickly.
If you programmed these probes to seek out life bearing exoplanets and crash into them an top speed, which for nuclear pulse propulsion is .15C if you burn all the fuel and don't plan on decelerating, you could purge all the life bearing planets in the galaxy and keep yourself safe from aliens forever. And if you programmed those same probes to accelerate toward any repeating, terminating radio signal and crash into the source body you could all target intelligent species. For that matter you could have them detonate there bomb stockpile before impact to scatter relativistic shrapnel cones at space habitats.

>>2154478
And that doesn't even account for the danger of other species colonizing everything and taking all your resources. Basically your only real option to keep yourself safe is to attack with berserker probes first and hope that you can get everybody before they launch their own. So you need at least a million year lead on your galactic war to ensure your own survival.
In a universe were superluminal travel cannot exist, any species that creates even the most primitive for of relativistic vehicle and self replicating machinery is an immediate and lethal threat to all other forms of life. Because of the rate at which intelligent life can spread, you pretty much have to attack all alien intelligences without provocation and with even knowing if there is anyone to attack. As previously stated probes with a maximum practical travel velocity of .1 C could visit every stellar system in the galaxy in as little as 250,000-1,000,000 years.

Now with speculative but still possible technology it could be done even faster. Even if we discount confined fusion as a energy medium for a reaction engine, hydrogen/antihydrogen reactions could still be used and we know they would work if there was enough antihydrogen. The solution to that being solar powered particle accelerators orbiting in the inner solar system. They would take in hydrogen from the solar wind and produce antihydrogen using abundant energy. A laser assisted launch could also increase the acceleration of outgoing ships of any type if a large solar powered array of lasers with an output greater than a terawatt was used.

>>2154491
All this culminates in the ultimate plan for species survival, to completely disassemble the all the rocky planets of every stellar system we can get access to and use that mass to build Dyson Swarms of space habitats around the local stars. That way we can continue to survive around those stars until they burn out, which in the case of the lowest mass red dwarfs would be about 120 trillion years. The largest lofstrom loops possible with current engineering can lift 500 million tons a year and since you could only fit about 1000 on earth it would take nearly 10 million years to disassemble the planet. But it can be done only with proven technology, no super materials or new energy sources needed. You could power them using huge convection towers that contain liquid halite, which would be heated by the hot lithosphere you are uncovering. And of course the job would only get easier as the planet is taken apart: less gravity, more heat being radiated, more materials for building and maintaining the loops. That said you still have to use nuclear pulse propulsion to move the material for the first loop into orbit, about 2 million tons of it. But with nuclear pulse propulsion that is doable. We can conquer the cosmos with only what we know today, no soft scifi stuff needed. It will just take a very, very long time. Now of course you can't disassemble stars, or for that matter high mass objects like gas giants. But the earth sized planets or at least large portions of their lithospheres can be consumed. So any species that begins ruthlessly expanding could pull a Stalin and crush all the pacifist space hippies into oblivion with the weight of our own corpses if need be.

>>2154060
I'm pretty sure the "Yuri Kellerman" character was more likely a parody of Uri Geller, the nutter who claimed he could bend spoons, but always had something go wrong when he tried to do it under serious scientific observation.

>>2154496
That is an awesome vision for the future. Thank you for posting it here.

>>2154535
I tried writing some hard scifi from time to time but an cannot do characterization worth shit. Also unless you are Wahammer40k fan mass xenocide usually bothers a lot of people.

On with my madness.

Since we have not been hit with an rvk yet, earth was not disassembled, and there are Bracewell probes in our solar system there are a few hypotheses I have regarding the state of intelligent life in the universe.
1. We are alone; there are no other communicative technological races. It could be that we are the first or they are all dead.
2. Others never developed technology. Essentially that would make them luddites, which means they will be good for target practice.
3. They aren't communicative and don't make rock'n weapons of slaughter on a galactic scale like we want to. So they are sissies and they will die by our hand. Even if they are a billion times as technologically advanced as we are, by the time that we meet them we will have disassembled the planetary bodies of several stellar systems and will outnumber them a trillion to one, effectively outnumbering them a thousand to one. Zerg Rush, Zerg Rush, Zerg Rush!

>>2154553
Or perhaps the aliens aren't such dicks.

>>2154553
Death to the Xeelee! Let the Third Xeno Crusade begin. Death to alien, the stars are the providence of Mankind alone!

>>2154595
>mfw the xeelee kick humanities ass

>>2154568
See option 3)

Outcome: Aliens dead.

You either become a race of monsters, or you are drug down and devoured by another race monsters some latter day. In a universe ruled by the Gibbs free energy equation and dominated by relativistic space travel there is no other option.

Of course this only holds for our own galaxy, you would need the antimatter engines with a maximum attainable velocity of 0.5C or more to reach other galaxies at an reasonable rate.

Those engines are theoretically possible with modern engineering, and they have all sorts of useful secondary functions to the discerning active colonizing civilization. The exhaust from a antimatter engine should give off a fairly well collated plume of protons stripped from whatever reaction mass they are using to provide thrust by being heated by the hydrogen/antihydrogen reaction. And the plume would be 50,000 miles long to several million miles long depending on how well it was collated. The plume will release the force of several hundred megatons/second into the upper atmosphere of an Earth like planet, eventually displacing it ove the course of a few seconds to the point that the plume will soon contact the surface. If trained one one point of the planets lithosphere long enough it could expose the mantel, which would then explosively out gas burying everything within a few thousand mile radius in ultramafic extrusives and likely decimating any hostile locals. For that matter you could just point the reaction engine at the target(planet or enemy battleship) during a portion the breaking manuevers.

>>2154060
>partly as a way to get rid of all the nukes we've got lying around

>>2154607
But the Xeelee were wimps. They could have beaten the birds if they had just done things the human way and consumed all mass in the entire universe. For that matter they could have just kept going back in time until they had practically consumed the entire universe at it's very genesis.

Then again even the humans in the Xeelee sequence were wimps because they didn't try the whole consume all mass plan on the Milky Way once they kicked those fukken xenos out.

Real life humanity confirmed for God Tier, fiction humans, fictional aliens, and any real life aliens are small time.

>>2154653
Real life humanity hasn't walked on Mars yet, and probably never will.

>>2154661
Not with that attitude, we won't.

Besides with nuclear pulse propulsion you could life 10,000 tons to Mars in two weeks and come back within a month.

Humanity could do a lot, if anything it is the SALT2 and Outer Space treaty that are holding us back.

>>2154370
>>alienated alot of people
look asshole, his shit was during the cold war, he was selling hope, and alienated?
shit reached half a billion viewers. for those of you keeping count thats like a 16th of the population. who the hell is he alienating?

>>2154714
Really a lot of people seeing it later, even those of us that grew up before the end of the Cold War, we kind of put off by the constant "humanity needs to rise above its base nature" shtich. Many people born after 1980 were oddly comfortable with the Cold War environment even if they didn't prefer it. This has been the longest period without direct war between any great powers in recored history. There has been plenty of wars but no total threating war other then the MAD provided by the nukes.

Hope is just a word for pipe dreams. Methodical plans are what get shit done.

>>2154553
>>40k
>>empire of man
Now i understand why you niggers are acting like deranged trigger happy neo conservatives.
protip; There will never be your shitty space conquest bullshit, protecting a planet from hostiles and invasion forces is fucking easy, it's called railguns and chucking rice.

>>2154739
see
>>2154742
you waste of human flesh.
you'll be the ones to perish in a pointless war on earth. peace is the only way, war in space is futile and a waste of resources. It serves no ones purpose but your sick masturbation fantasies of dominance over shitty fucking rocks.

>BIG NUMBERS
Wow
Thats like soo deep man

>>2154754
>>2154742
Yes yes let the butt hurt flow through you.

>>2154742
Uh, yeah that's the whole point. Protecting yourself from an rvk is impossible that's why you need to launch self replicating probes that can act as rvks before anyone else can.

see
>>2154742

In a relativistic war there is no defense besides the preventive strike. You have to strike first, strike without warning, strike without remorse, and strike without even knowing that there is an enemy to strike at.

I'm all for humans getting along and only holding nuclear guns to each others head instead of actually using them(MAD) actual war between ourselves is inevitable but undesirable. But the aliens just plain need to die, no exceptions.

>>2154808
>But the aliens just plain need to die, no exceptions.

Okay, how about you start first? One less retard in the world is a good thing.

>>2154754
>pointless war on earth
Yes the nuclear war that never comes even when we are all at each others' throats.

IB4 Cuban Missile Crisis: because if you actually read the declassified documents from the US and USSR and the minutes of the meets they had, the war was not even close. There were dissenting opinions about any kind of strike on Cuba before a strike was even proposed. And then even the hawkish Mac the Knife Mcnamara and Curtis LeMay said that a strike would only work if the medium range missiles were not yet operational. They gave it a 1/10 chance of success even then. Those to voted against it after the first reconnaissance followups got back.

Politicians and Generals may be callous idiots but even they understand the basics of MAD, and not to rock the boat.

If humanity needs a common foe to unite against and prepare for war with, it might as well be hypothetical aliens that probably don't exist. Because on the off chance they do exist we absolutely, positively have to EX-TER-MIN-ATE!

>>2154840
>planning for possible eventualities based on what we know about physics is retardation now

m'kay

So no nuclear pulse propulsion and galactic conquest for you? Even though we could technically do it without any new technology. Really? You are going to give up humanities manifest destiny because "it's not nice". Once again, really?

>>2154742
Oh my GOD! It has no nose, chin, or cheek bones! And look at the disproportionately large eyes! Alien! Alien! They're here already! The crazy militaristic nut jobs were right!

>>2154881
Stupid atheists.

Them and their retarded religion.

>>2154881
yeah pretty fucking much, enjoy being a meat bag and have fun wallowing in your R complex,

>>2154060
He's closer to Uri Geller methinks

>>2154742
>Thinks ground to space combat is easier than space to ground combat.

Protip honey: if a starship is accelerated to more than 0.15C in is almost impossible for an observer to determine its location, and by the time you did it would already have hit you. And if your little rail gun did hit the rvk, congratulations you've just sprayed pieces of it in a cone, a very very tight cone. And since the amount of kinetic energy your projectile transfered to the target would be infinitesimal compared to the amount of kinetic energy the rvk is carrying, remember this a million tonne ship that has been accelerating toward you for year if not decades. Meaning that there will be almost no deviation in the trajectory of the fragments from the rvk, and they will all hit their target anyways.

And if it is a starship with a reaction engine with collated exhaust their exhaust plume will have a greater velocity and therefore longer effective range then your projectile. Now a laser array could be effective at shooting a incoming rvk, but then you have the same problem with the relativistic shrapnel cone. And if you use the array to shoot down and hostile starship you had better hope they they didn't fire their petawatt reaction engine at your planet or space habitats for even one second.

>>2154924
I sense a troll in the force, no one has brought up religion or atheism at all. Nor is xenocide inconsistent with any religions dogma.

>>2154955
>meat bag
>Implying a machine would not see the cold logic in his words

Also the reptilian brain carries useful instincts unlike the midbrain, responsible for hippie emotionality.

Only heartless instinct of the neuron and the disconnected logic of silicon can allow us to endure.

IN SPAAAAAAAACE

>>2154496

>>2155099
Yes the mothers of those dead berserker probes will be in tears. Grow up, make comparisons that are actually logical. Violence is not the best solution to to every problem, but it is the best solution to aliens.

Or would you rather they get us first(see pic)?

>>2154986
rail gun will be in space stupid.
enjoy your hunk of twisted metal

The point here is invasion is stupidly impractical. its a worse prospect than mad, because the guns pointed outside the earth will lay wast to basically anything with much less effort than what engineering effort would be required to produce something like a space faring navy.

>>2155025
>>implying people aren't machines.
god damn it just keeps getting stupider.

>>2155172
>>2155172

>implying the dualism of mind and body doesn't separate man from machine, spirit from logic.

mfw this thread

What about how to SURVIVE in space in the first place?

Haven't we still not figured out Solar Wind and adverse affects of low grav on the body?

>>2155168
>space navy
Did you even read the post. It does not matter were your space guns are they will not stop the fragments of rvks from hitting there targets. Indeed for space habitats it is proscribed that the incoming rvk explode to scatter a shrapnel cone.

This is how it goes.

1. A berserker probe sets up shop in the stellar system next door and starts spamming rvks at you.

2) humans that came with the Berserker probe or after it begin slowly disassembling the rocky planets of that stellar system in proximity to you.

3)RVKs buttfuck your planets, space habitats, and defensive instillations by crashing into them at more than 0.15C.

4) The actual invasion arrives at your decimated and defenseless stellar system. Each of the ships almost unarmed except for their engines, which themselves are giant honking particle guns that hit you with collated beams of induced cosmic rays(stripped hydrogen nuclei accelerated to near light speed).

5)Your pathetic cowering race that decided to live in peace and balance with it's stellar system, or even worse it's original biosphere, is crushed by an endless onslaught of vessels from only a tiny fraction of humanity. And even if you somehow beat back this invasion you are still facing a overwhelming number of humans who have occupied other stellar systems.

And you can beat all this without any warning, because you have some space guns. That is a lot to buy. And once again, YOU CANNOT HIT AN RVK OR RELATIVISTIC STARSHIP, because the very nature of moving at relativistic speed makes it impossible for an observer to determine your exact location and trajectory, physics says so.

>>2155289
Stop thinking with FLESH!
SERIOUSLY!

>this thread

>>2155310

ahaha okay man

>>2155289
Actually the solar wind outside the Van Allen belts was dealt with during the Apollo missions.

And the the zero gravity effects only apply if you ever want to live in 1g.

But if it is nuclear pulse propulsion or antimatter driven ship, it has high enough specific impulse to carry plenty of shielding against solar wind. And it could even accelerate at decelerate at roughly 1g, allowing the crew to live under normal gravity so long as the engine is being fired.

Of course for berserker probes and mechanical descendants of humanity these are nonissues.

>>2155168
It's not about attacking Earth, this is about attacking aliens in other stellar systems. The whole point of an rvk is that it has years to accelerate and hit the target with as much kinetic energy as possible. That way you only need to hit their planet once to kill there xeno asses.

>>2155340
and have then have no planet left to invade, if something like that hit the earth there wouldnt be a planet left. the heat would plasma the air and the planet would be a firey hell for tens of thousands of years for the shit to radiate. if the whole point is to kill aliens in some retarded aggression, good job, you've just ensured your MAD system alright, enjoy your counter RVKs and say good by to the fucking universe. see this is why we don;t let you 40kid fuckers run the planet, you fail to fucking realize this is the same shit we have already, nuclear arms, rail guns, whatever, it ISNT A GAME PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY. only RETARDS masturbating to 40k and fall out 3 yearn for this kind of retardation. given the immense distances between galaxies the last thing we need to do is start totaling the one we live in.

>>2155550
The only time anyone mentioned 40k was saying that that was the only fanbase for xenocidal fiction.

>tens of thousands of years
Not that long, maybe a hundred years at most.

Also why would you even want to preserve an alien biosphere, it's a completely different biochemistry and probably poison to you. And even if it took ten thousand years for the planet to cool it would be worth it because that is one more alien race that won't be launching berserker probes at you anytime. And in the meantime you can just disassemble the other planets in the stellar system.

All you need it the mass from the planet's lithospheres to make space habitats. That's the plan. We don't want or need living planets in the first place. We want all life bearing planets not infested by humans to be destroyed so they can never spawn an alien intelligence that could be a threat to us. And you do this by killing their biospheres with an rvk, then taking them apart whenever human colonists arrive.

The whole point is that since we have not been hit by and rvk and have no alien presence in our solar system even though we can do intragalactic travel today, then there is likely no one out there that makes them. And if we launch a series of berserker probes first then we win end of fucking story.

This is not MAD, MAD works because you can detect ICBM launches. MAD is two men in a room pointing guns at each other. This is like being in a dark room with several other assholes you don't like and firing a silent pistol that has no flash. Expect the bullet seeks out it's targets and reproduces itself, killing everybody in the room but you.

>>2155697

>why would you even want to preserve an alien biosphere
Seriously?

>>2155697
>>if i attack something, I will get less retaliation.
Thank god you are not our commander in chief.
Again, listen to Marisa and get the fuck out you upstart twat. It's also fairly obvious 40k fags would go around posting their 40k pictures everywhere, just as its obvious my touhous show I am at some level a touhoufag

The second you fuck up an alien planet with more than one habitable location, they will work out where the device came from and retaliate, and since as obvious enough that space is huge and with preclusions you can basically live in it. the only logical conclusion is you will kick start a chain of events of big bad humanity playing the asshole destroying planets, the aliens destroying your planets back, and then youre still fighting in space and nobody has planets. GJ. enjoy your gas giants.

and no it does take a few thousand years, if the planet even survives a collision at .15 C your wating for the gaping hole in the earths crust and inner material to heal over instead of super heating the atmosphere and with the atmosphere super heated there is little to cool it down.

>>2156989
precautions^

>> /sci/ - Xenos Slaughtering Machine

Because even once we captured the entire galaxy, made so many human niche that no one will ever be sure to have erased all of us.
We won't stop to wonder "Wait a century, is this really the good thing to do if some very advanced Aliens we can't kill existed and would kill us to preserve intelligence ?"

>>2157031

see
#3
>>2154553


There is no such things as ftl travel, no space aliens will come and spank us for being bad boys. You're just appealing to an authority whose existence we have evidence against, since by all logic we the galaxy should be crawling with probes. And since it is not then that must mean that enlightened space hippies do not actively pursue imperialism, so we will outnumber them.

>>2156989
>and no it does take a few thousand years, if the planet even survives a collision at .15 C your wating for the gaping hole in the earths crust and inner material to heal over instead of super heating the atmosphere and with the atmosphere super heated there is little to cool it down.

>I don't understand how ultramafic extrusion works.

>I don't understand how radiative cooling works

Also since it may take thousands of years for the human colonists to get there, and even if they got there and the planet was still hot there are tons of bolides and other planetary bodies to disassemble first. Blasting the few sparse life sustaining planets will have minimal negative effects on our colonization procedures, and it will keep use safe from aliens forever.

Also it only takes one human to make one of these things and send it out to start the whole irreversible process. Someone will do it eventually and that person will be the greatest hero in history.

>>2157125
>>other planetary bodies to disassemble first
enjoy your alien butt rape.
what you think if you can survive there the aliens dont?
cute youre sooo optimistic in your genocide its hilarious. keep ignoring me, its serving you well, after all the second you didn't you'd have to answer for your people why after another 1000 years suddenly most of OUR people are dead too.

>>2157031

Oh wait, 40k fag forgot about immortal floating machine fortresses a la Mass Effect.

inb4 such creatures don't exist: We don't know 1% of what is going on in our own solar system, so how the fuck do you expect to know what is going on elsewhere in the galaxy?

>>2157125

Or be chastised and forever hated as the worst genocidal maniac in the galaxy.
As if we wouldn't want to spread peacefully and share technology with aliens. Aliens would want to solve the problem of entropy, too.

>>2156989
We don't want to live on planets they are inefficient. We want to take them apart and make dyson swarms of space habitats to maximize the amount of energy we take in.

Did you read the plan?>>2154496

The idea is that each one of these probe/ships makes 100 copies of itself and all these copies go out and repeat the process. But if it detects a life bearing exoplanet or intelligent radio signal then the next time it stops it makes 10,000 or more probes and sends them off to the stellar system of interest all at once. These then monumentally fuck up the any planets or space habitats in that stellar system, killing the alien race in the process. Then we com along, or maybe we were will the berserker probe in the first place, and colonize.

It is a good plan, and since no other race has enacted it, after all we are still alive and our system is no colonized, that means we can kill them all if we lauch 1 million years before anyone else.

Now no doubt there will be endless inter-human war with these devices even before we finish the job on any aliens. But since you disassemble planets into hundreds of millions of space habitats, it will be very hard for us to wipe ourselves out with rvks.

Luckily we don't see any stars being perceptively dimmed by dyson swarms so there are likly no other intelligences that want to utilize them.

>>2157172
>solve the problem of entropy

Oh U and your soft scifi. There very likely is no solution. But do you know how we might find this hypothetical solution to heat death? By living in dyson swarms around red dwarfs and working on the problem for 100 trillion years before they finally burn out.

. It is my dream that the last living thing shall be a human, huddling in dark, cooling universe. If we cannot escape the creeping heat death then I would rather have the human die spitting hatred into the dark ragging impotently at a dying universe, than for it to die peacefully in the natural course of things on this pathetic ball of dirt.

>>2157194
>>since no alien race has done it before
>>its a good plan,
yeah no,
its a stupid plan, and you continue to ignore me, youre going to get your own ass handed to you, retaliation is inevitable and they have hundreds of years to develop better weapons than you.

>>2157146
>immortal floating machine fortresses

Yeah sorry to tell you this but even living star ships or space stations would get torn to shit by a cone of relativistic debris from an exploded rvk.

>>2157172

Because aliens wouldbe , beautiful space elves livig in tune with nature happy to give free technology and resources to humans, right?

This is the worst kind of self-delusion. Any aliens we will encounter will be ruthless conquerors.

I love how people believe genocide is bad because of lolhitler and "enlightened" aliens wouldnt kill any competition off.


I'd rather be a genocidal maniac than some hippy faggot trying to fight relativistic drones with positive thoughts and yoga breathing.

>>2157230
>have hundreds of years to develop better weapons than you

The only effective weapon they would have would be a more efficient berserker probe that has an engine with higher specific impluse.

And how will they develop this while being attacked by our probes, possibly form several stellar systems we already occupy.

The only way to stop berserkers is to stop them from replicating. Which means you need a practically galactic empire so that you can deny the probes the resources of all the stellar systems under your control. Which requires that you have already spread throughout the galaxy using, wait for it, berserker probes of your own.

The descendants of the psychotic apes are here, all aliens are small time.

>>2157266
>>how will they develope this?
they have hundrdeds of years before your pathetic drones even reaches their next planet. they will develope them and given the time scales it will be a sinch.

>>2157266
>>only way to stop berserker probes is to conquers the galaxy
or you know, kill the berserker probes. not that hard.

Stop berseker probes with other berserker probes travelling at similar if not exact velocity at an opposite trajectory. Easy done, nullifies relativistic cones (because the debris radiates perpendicularly outward) and (largely) momentum

>>2157143
Why don't we see evidence of dyson swarms being constructed in the galaxy then. For that matter why isn't are solar system itself already deconstructed?

I see no evidence of this behavior, so if we do it first we will have adapted a defense that no one else yet utilizes.

Hell some alien race that are not sissy faggots could be enacting a similar plan right now on the other side of the galaxy. And in that case the only way we will ever get revenge for our inevitable ass fucking would be to build and launch the berserkers as soon as possible so they cannot stop them before they spread.

You stop retaliation by controlling the stellar systems around you target. That way you can destroy there berserkers as they come at you. RVKs that don't self replicate are a one shot missile, they can only kill one of your space habitats. It's the self replicating probes and colonists that you have to destroy before they spread. And if you control the surrounding stellar systems you can keep those probes from spreading. And if they launch the berserker at a more distant system then by the time it gets there, it will be likely that you already have a presence their yourself and can destroy the probe on arrival.

And even if the aliens came of with a dyson sphere, you could slowly whittle it away if you have control of all the surrounding stellar systems and just keep sending rvks, berserkers, and colonization ships at them. But in order to have control of thous stellar systems you need to launch your berserkers and colonizers first, and have a million year lead. Which is possible if you act as soon as you can.

>>2157308
What, the berserkers in nearby stellar systems would be spamming rvks and probes at them constantly there would be no lull in the war.

>>2157311
You can't get them while they are in transit if they are moving at relativistic speeds. You'd have to catch them while they are in stellar system trying to replicate. And to do that you need control of alot of star systems. So unless you are already a huge interstellar empire then you are fucked.

>>2157373
You really have no idea how big space is do you?

>>2157385
One stellar system of space hippies, surrounded by several stellar systems of probes and colonists all reproducing themselves geometrically. The human systems launch started launching tens of thousands of rvks a month at the alien occupied stellar system 40 years ago. Today the first rvk hit the aliens home planet. They mobilize of a retaliation. And every month tens of thousands of rvks hit there planets and habitats. Since the humans have been launching shit for 40 years there is a 40 year long slavo of rvks, probes, and colony ships coming at them. And the humans can just keep launching them until the there colonists call back by radio and say "hey fuckwads we won, stop shooting" Then after 40 years the salvo of rvks will be over and the humans can colonize the stellar system.

I do understand the size of space and the huge transit times involved.

>>2157419
Yeah really the aliens would be able to launch some rvks and fuck up a few thousand human space habitats, but all their self replicating probes and colony ships would get killed one they decelerated into a new human occupied system and tried to replicate.

imokwiththis.jgp

>>2157419
Also remember that those humans and probes are actively occupying nearby stellar systems, essentially boxing the aliens in over the decades.

>>2157438
No, the first wave hits infrastructure without deceleration, the second (launched first) decelerates to do work.

>>2157477
What? You would never sent the replicating probes in as a weapon system, but rather as a device to test the waters, to see if the enemy is destroyed. If that were the case then the decade long waves of rvks wouldn't be needed to kill the aliens.

Remember the stellar system in question is full of other self replicating machinery and colonists that have already been established for decades. Your probes may not even find enough material to reproduce in vast numbers, and once they have decelerated they are vulnerable to attack by the far more numerous probes already in the system. And do you really think that one stellar system full of aliens can fight several full of humans, who already have waves of rvks in transit? And all this while they are under a similar attack by a greater number of probes, rvks, and colonizers? Sorry buddy but it seems like the side that starts the relativistic war and has the most stellar systems under it's control will win.

Basically what I get is derpty derp, "It will surely take the humans centuries to destroy the aliens, but one wave of alien rvks and self replicating probes will absolutely buttfuck the humans easily. Because I love sucking huge xenos cock." Come on man, it will be a long war be the side with more resources will just keep throwing shit until the other is dead, and in this case that would be the whatever aggressor has surrounded you.

And all this is supposing the aliens have at least a modicum of sense and made a dyson swarm to live in. If they are the egalitarian space hippies/libertarians living in tune with their biospheres that every peacnik seems to have a boner for; they will be deader than dogshit very quickly.

I really don't understand why some of you are against this berserker plan. We have no reason to belive that any alien species would be benevolent. In fact, if we have learned something from life on earth it is that in the brutal competition of life species are almost universaly hostile to other species. Cunning and brutal creatures win in the end, so the best thing that we can do, is to hope, tha we are the first inteligent cratures that came up with the berserker plan, because if we haven't we are already dead.

>>2157564
When guns don't work you use artillery

>>2157419
>>2157564
Sounds like you have some political baggage dude.

>>2157477
Well there is the concern that(assuming the 40 year travel time between the stellar systems in question with constant acceleration deceleration) You would have to launch the probes that don't decelerate somewhere between 10 and 30 years after(depending on the maximum attainable velocity with your engine type) in order to get the decelerating probes and rvks to reach the target stellar system in tandem. So although you may be able to send alot of self replicating probes in your slower first wave, you may be so badly decimated by after the decades that you won't be able to muster enough relativistic kill vehicles to destroy the enemies infrastructure for your invasion. Kind of like not having enough artillery support for a large army.

Relativistic warfare is more brutal than nuclear warfare because a first strikes are supremely effective, since unlike ICBMs RVKs can't be detected until they have already hit. It would be like having invisible ICBMs and if you launched first you would destroy almost everything except the enemies railway launchers, flatbeds, and boomers. You can make a counter attack but if the original first strike is in mass against you, you are at a severe disadvantage in the number of weapons you can sent in retaliation.

>>2157652
Not really. I lean slightly left politically

It's mostly a combination of me getting sick of seeing idealized aliens in science fiction, and thinking that spamming berserker probes is the only way for us not to die when some other species with a brain eventually comes up with a similar idea. IE by killing all the aliens before they can launch self replicating killbots of their own.

>>2157628
Don't you just mean BIGGER guns?

>>2157702
I don't think any species would be all too willing to release gray goo into the universe. The only reason they would do it is if they had a killswitch, in which case the target alien civilization would be able to discover that killswitch. If such technology were possible war wouldn't be like war anymore, it would be more like two organisms trying to find immunities to rampaging infections.

>>2157742
Well that was the point this guy>>2154478
was making by limiting the number of replicated probes to 100 per system, outside of times of war. The idea is to have humans(or whatever we become) to travel with or after the probes so that they can more closely manage them. After all we would practically be berserker probes ourselves. There is always the possibility of using a stand down protocol whenever the probes encounter a human signal or construction. You could even mandate that human colonies transmit certain signals or construct their habitats in such a way that the probes can differentiate them from aliens.

Not to mention that if is much harder to replicate than many people think(hence why actual grey goo is impossible) The probe has to construct machines that intern can construct machines to collect resources and build more probes. This will take a while, perhaps decades. And even then as mentioned here>>2154496 it would take 10 million years to disassemble an earth sized planet, but only one million years for humans to colonize every star in the milkly way>>2154491 or at least send a new probe to give the old ones new instructions. So it is likely we will be able to manage their populations within the galaxy so long as we are widespread enough.

And remember that having the probes take every planet in the galaxy apart and stockpile resources for future probes might even be desirable. It's not like they can take apart stars or anything. The mothballed fleets of berserkers would provide a readily available supply of construction material for any new human colonists arriving in a stellar system. Not to mention a potent weapon if they were to detect or be detected by alien intelligences.

>>2157830

Like any new weapon we must be careful with these things, and inevitably we will turn them against other humans. But it is merely in our nature to so. As the universe can never escape it's fate at the hands Man, so mankind can never escape the specter of War.

Pic: This tread is beginning to remind me of a crappy yet entertaining show.

>>2157438
>>2157444
>>2157419
>>box aliens in
>>steady stream
god damn you are dumb as rocks, Neither of these things are true, you can't have a steady stream of rvks to multi system aliens. they are going to be light years away and theyre going to be pretty pissed that you destroyed their planets.
the fact that you think you can do something like box someone in in space is absolutely retarded. there is no boxing in in space. the size and distances of solar systems and their constituent planets are two orders of magnitude

You simply do not know what the fuck you are talking about,

and you are not politically left if you harbor such age old passions as provincialized superiority and anthropocentricism, those ideas are as old as the fucking dirt, they are not liberal or new at all.

>>2157932

>anthropocentricism

If you arent anthropocentric you must get off this planet or die.

>>2157932
Box them in so far as denying them nearby stellar systems in which colony ships or self replicating probes can establish themselves, as has already been mentioned if they send something to a distant star system it is very likely that you will already be established in it before there ship gets their.

Nobody is trying to stop the ships when they are moving, since moving relativistically makes it almost impossible to hit you, and if you were not firing your reaction engine you would be invisible at interstellar distances.

Read the previous posts instead of having a knee jerk reaction to a single phrase.

> left if you harbor such age old passions as provincialized superiority and anthropocentricism

>Implying that anthropocentricism is bad
>Implying that differentiating between ALIEN SPECIES, is the same as proventialism

Yes because you have hold only completely liberal or conservative to be left or right leaning, rather than assessing each political policy individually and just ending up more on the left or right based on which ideas you think will work.

>>2157932
Now multi star system alien empire could resist far longer. But by their very nature that would mean that they are likely employing berserkers as well, at least for part of there conquests. Depending on the size of the alien empire and how long it has been established it may hold out indefinately, or eventually be encircled and destroyed over tens or hundreds of thousands of years. Or if the human domains consist of only a few star systems: the aliens may eventually encircle the human dominated systems, destroy all there self replicating probes as they enter alien controled star systems, and eventually crush the humans through attrition.

All this begs the question though, if there are these multistar alien civilizations why have we not encountered their colonies or probes. If they have been capable of even the crudest interstellar travel, as we are now, for more than a million years or even a few hundred thousand; then why are they not the dominate force in our stellar system. Why have they not spread everywhere as they are capable of. And if they are younger than a million years, then it is a huge and unlikely coincidence that two intelligent species just managed to become space faring within a few hundred thousand years of each other.

tldr: Space may be huge, but intelligent life should be able to spread very very quickly(less than one million years) on a galactic scale.

It's the fermi paradox only with more xenocide.

>>2157575
Well, first reason : It will keep our self-replicating RKM from being used against us (as well by other RACIST human like you who consider anybody not him as xenos).
=> Question implied : how will you strictly define "humanity" in case of trans-humanism so that probes resulting of 100 replication don't take us like alien if we dared change our appearance ?
Second reason : As logic ask, we only fire if we are attacked. If we somehow arrive first probability say that they won't be 1000 around their first spaceship, so we may as well study them
=> 2nd Corollary : how would that protect us from others RKM swarm anyway ? You want limit here >>2157830 to prevent gray goo, imagine if somebody even more stupid than you don't put any : he'd win.
Third reason : who know what sort Clarke's rules powered magic alien may use if they see us exterminating Intelligence.
=> They may not even be physical being, they could be energy being capable of sending back our probe at us and our own probe
4th reason : predator could starve if they killed all their pray, now imagine that when we need to answer "the last question" (how to reverse entropy) we wasted resource to kill, at the death of the universe we won't have found a way to hack our way outside nor realized there was a multi-verse
5th reason : When the fuck will "shoot, ask question later" resolved any problem ?

Last point, we may go trans-human one day and live on another plane of existence where all "life" and "consciousness" merge as one entity ( hive mind )
Seeing an Alien hive mind, why not just merge with it to acquire new knowledge

Pict fucking related.

>>2158155
I detect soft scifi bullshit. Where to start?

>RACIST
Oh boy. The reason racist does not work is because there are variations in physical an mental capabilities within each general race of humans at least as great as an difference between the average of any two races. Basically any differences differences between to races of humans are not great enough to affect there comparative utility to society.

And as for transhumans and machines, if you are descended from homos sapiens sapiens you are phylogenetically human. More over they are designed with human prides and prejudices in mind, and hence would display human behaviors and thought patterns if only because we would want them to.

But this is not the case among different species. Aliens may be stronger or weaker, smarter or dumber than humans. But even more than that they are evolved from completely different bacteria with alien biochemistries, aliens physiologies, and alien behaviors. There brains would literally be constructed differently than our own. There would be no thoughts like our thoughts in their heads, no feelings like our feelings in there hearts. Alien minds are alien. We would be monsters to one another. And given that only aggressive species are likely to spread to other stars, now you have two aggressive alien beings coming into conflict for resources. War is inevitable. Just as animals are below moral consideration. Aliens are above it. Morality does not apply to interspecies conflict, only survival matters.

>>2158155
>Clarke's rules powered magic alien may use if they see us exterminating Intelligence.
this>>2157213
Also you might as well appeal to gods, at least the existence supernatural phenomena cannot be confirmed or disproved using the scientific method, but aliens are natural phenomena so we should see something but we don't.


> "life" and "consciousness" merge as one entity ( hive mind )
Requires ftl communications, not going to happen.

Remember if anyone, alien or human does the berserker plan, everybody else that didn't gets killed, no exceptions. And the only way to defeat those that utilize berserkers is to become the very thing you profess to hate.

There is no escape from the implications of physics.

>>2158155

>RACIST

>bullshit moralizing about upper sentience

Also, troll comic.

>>2158243
Soft SF ? Hohoho, you should see me explain why there is no space-fighter in space. Obviously the Comic wasn't hard-SF, but the point was. Once you've killed everybody included yourself through racist war or an error of your own probe they will be no freedom of choice, because I doubt you are going to give AI something like a consciousness if you even bother researching that.

> And as for transhumans and machines
Yet transhuman are likely to see YOU as less than an animal. As stimuli go in the creation of the personality, being uploaded in a machine and listening to alien emission will put some xenos in you. Because you WILL keep information to know "the enemies", you WILL learn to think like him.

> There would be no thoughts like our thoughts in their heads, no feelings like our feelings in there hearts. Alien minds are alien
Until you do some research and realize that

What you don't understand is that discriminating will LOGICALLY get you as far as killing anybody who aren't you. (first human (btw : kill all animal), then human that aren't "Xenophile", then human that are more like you than other)
And then you
You'll discovers later that you are being made of the same particle of the same universe than alien, will you try to search your soul ? What if you realize Aliens soul are made of the same thing than you ?

> only survival matters.
Actually since we acquired "intelligence" we searched to understand our world in order to do that.
Wasting energy to keep people from working on that too is less efficient than working together on it.

>>2158279

Let me translate his post for you.

>BAAAW reality is evil and RACIST why cant every1 be peacful and luv eachotehr lol we cud make utopia wit hawt alien chicks lol :D

>What you don't understand is that discriminating will LOGICALLY get you as far as killing anybody who aren't you. (first human (btw : kill all animal), then human that aren't "Xenophile", then human that are more like you than other)
And then you
You'll discovers later that you are being made of the same particle of the same universe than alien, will you try to search your soul ? What if you realize Aliens soul are made of the same thing than you ?

>>2158328
Well you could keep yourself safe from all other life by killing eveything and making all available matter into copies of yourself. Which is fine too. That my be the motivation of many interhuman wars.

>Implying all AIs will have a sense of self preservation, or a sense of self. Intelligence is not the same thing as sapience.

>Implying sapience is needed or desirable for a species to prosper.

>Implying we would learn more from stupid aliens that are not even smart enough to practice space imperialism. Rather than consuming as much mass as possible and converting it to human derived life and computation aids.

>Implying that being made of similar atomic material somehow means I shouldn't kill the aliens.

Making your ingroup so inclusive that it includes mutually hostile species is just as stupid as making it so small as to exclude members of the same species that can cooperate.

>>2158328

then humanity will get killed off because of liberal fucktard

>Until you do some research

current research indicates that the chance of developing life even remotely similar to humans through the huge gene gambling of evolution is near nil

just google some of thee theories, we would have NOTHING in common with aliens, not even biologically, they could be methane based, silicon based, have cobalt or copper in place of iron in their blood, use other solvents than water etc and these are just the base differences

>LOGICALLY get you as far as killing anybody who aren't you.

I'm ok with killing all aliens off from our galaxy to ensure human continuity

>(first human (btw : kill all animal), then human that aren't "Xenophile", then human that are more like you than other)

fallacy

>You'll discovers later that you are being made of the same particle

and my shit is made of out of the same particles as the sun, so?

>will you try to search your soul ? What if you realize Aliens soul are made of the same thing than you ?

Soul? Whats that? Oh wait, an outdated religious/philosphical concept

>>2158328
Rasism.

The fuck?? By your logic we are rasist by exterminating vermins like rats. There is no valid reason to care for aliens. In fact we shold care more about some random earth bacteria than an alien. At least the bacteria shares some parts of its DNA with us. Aliens have no redeeming qualities. They are ALIEN, differend. We should care for our own. One human life is worth more than a thousand aliens.

test

>>2158412

>The fuck?? By your logic we are rasist by exterminating vermins like rats.

Technically, thats racism.

Realistically, no one gives a fuck.

>At least the bacteria shares some parts of its DNA with us.

Actually, we fully carry the DNA of several bacteria, DNA is mostly full of junk and obsolete genes yet no one dreams about our spiritual kinship to the E.coli strain but choose to fap to made up aliens like the na'vi and think aliens would behave like them.

>>2158407
>Soul? Whats that? Oh wait, an outdated religious/philosphical concept.

Well you yourself are making philosophical distinction by saying that. However if the soul exists it would be an intangible supernatural construct and therefore not assessable using the scientific method. And thereby of zero interest in a debate about the physical continuation of the human species.

Hell Abrahamic religions consider the soul and the mind to be distinct from one another(although this not usually played up today). It is Buddhism and Hinduism that imply a connection between the soul to the physical mind.

>>2158427
>Technically, thats racism.

No it is speciesism, and speciesism works.

>>2158427
"Actually, we fully carry the DNA of several bacteria, DNA is mostly full of junk and obsolete genes yet no one dreams about our spiritual kinship to the E.coli strain but choose to fap to made up aliens like the na'vi and think aliens would behave like them."

That was my hole point. It is ridicilous to feel any kind of connection to non earth originating life. Tey share nothing in common with us. The fact that they originate from an entirely differend biosphere is reason enough to belive that everything in them is at least somewhat detrimental to us. Human/alien diplomacy will be done by planetwide genosides.

>>2158486
This!

>>2158412
>There is no valid reason to care for aliens
For that matter there is no valid reason to care about your fellow man. You are implying the continued prosperity of humanity is the superseding goal of every human's life. There is no underlying justification for that or any alternative to it. In truth, everyone has to establish goals that have no logical founding. We make them up because we have nothing better to do with our existence. An individual could just as easily prioritize his or her own well being over the well being of his or her own species or one could prioritize the well being of sentient beings over the well being of any one species of sentient beings. Both are equally as grounded as your prioritization of humanity's well being.

Even if accepts your anthropocentric goal, it can still be argued that other sentient species should be respected. Do on to other races as you would like other races to do onto you. There is always a bigger fish. Next time humanity comes across another alien species it might be THEM who holds all the guns. They would be less inclined to show lenience should humanity of proven its own inherent distrust.

So long as communication and cooperation is possible, violence is too... pre-sapient. Evolution is only dictated by survival of the fittest because protozoa are too stupid to work together.

>>>2158535
>You are implying the continued prosperity of humanity is the superseding goal of every human's life.

>Implying it doesn't

It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for one's self.

>>2158535

>For that matter there is no valid reason to care about your fellow man. You are implying the continued prosperity of humanity is the superseding goal of every human's life.
BZZZZZT wrong. Altruism and intra-group cooperation was the killer app of humanity.


>So long as communication and cooperation is possible, violence is too... pre-sapient. Evolution is only dictated by survival of the fittest because protozoa are too stupid to work together.

Aliens would be that, alien. You couldnt work together with them.

> violence is too... pre-sapient

>HURR VIOLENCE IS EBUL WE CULD GROW OU FROM SUCH SILLY THINGS LOL

You cannot form utopia. Strength is required to survival.

>>2158603
I would die for the god empress.

>>>2158535
>There is always a bigger fish.

Unless you are a blue whale, Pliosaur, Mososaur, or Megalodon. Then you are the biggest fucking fish in the sea.

Of course what we want to do is more like harpooning every fish in the sea, then living for as long as possible by eating all their delicious phytoplankton.

We would preserve humans and human descended life because they can make interesting shit we might not have thought of that might help us to survive as an individual, ie some other asshole invents a gun I now have a gun to shoot bears. But if the aliens are too damn stupid to think of and implement a berserker probe galactic conquest of own then they're no use to us. Wouldn't you get more innovations by maximizing the number of human derived organisms and subservient computers we have at our disposal by consuming and processing as many natural resources as possible. And guess who we need to kill to get those resources? Aliens.

But when other humans get in your way enough, you kill the fuckers, simple as that. There will always be human on human war even as we exterminate the aliens.

ITT : Samefag trying to make it like he have many supporter.

You are the one using fallacy, I just took into account that you may not fight something you can't win against. Also when I said I would be protecting intelligence, I have no reason to kept "as they are" alien that may tend toward elimination like you. If I arrive 10000 before they even invent writing I'll be able to extend my knowledge while making them into allies.

You aim for destruction, I aim for understanding, since you'll need understanding anyway I'm just not wasting time.
I'm proposing a win-win situation that follow the basic of receiving information and analyzing it.

> Soul? Whats that? Oh wait, an outdated religious/philosphical concept
I assure you I'm agnostic. I just wondered if you (that anon) was/were religious since you seem to think only humans have "though" and will stay eternally with the same appearance.
Also, we may have been created by alien. You thinking they couldn't/wouldn't do that, don't change the possibility that they did.

(to be continued ...)

(...continued)

> I'm ok with killing all aliens off from our galaxy to ensure human continuity
Except that you aren't, you are killing needlessly on false assumption. This is no hippie thinking, I showed through logic that you aren't using the most efficient way of gathering information to actually know what to do.

> just google some of thee theories, we would have NOTHING in common with aliens, [....] are just the base differences
You are not even supposing they "think" or have anything like your own "consciousness" ? If you can even define what it is to be alive.
Basic logic say that if it happened once it can happen again.
And since we have yet to understand what "consciousness is" we can't tell for granted that it isn't a fundamental part of intelligence however it may have been attained.
How do you even prove that people around you are as conscious as you are ? They could be replica giving you the illusion that they are like you ?

In the end you are just a fascist (that's more exact) trying to justify it's lack of rationality.
And you should really learn about the Anthropic principle.

>>2157294
>>2157294
They are my heroes now....God I came....

>>2158629
> BZZZZZT wrong. Altruism and intra-group cooperation was the killer app of humanity.
Yet, you could only develop technology because people helped each other.

> Aliens would be that, alien. You couldnt work together with them.
I do not think you have the element to prove that point.

> You cannot form utopia. Strength is required to survival.
Then, "Unity is strength".

This thread is absolutely jam-packed with retards!

Everyone's drinking the haterade...

>>2158691
>Anthropic principle.

Philosophy is meaningless justification of emotion and subjective morality.

Empathy is an errant program.

Survival is all the matters.

The only thing you need to know about the alien, is how to kill it.

>>2158629
>Altruism and intra-group cooperation was the killer app of humanity.
"app"?

>Aliens would be that, alien. You couldnt work together with them.
Other cultures seem alien to me. What you are stating is no different than human tribalism on a grander scale. You might respond to this by stating that the division between species is fundamentally different than the division between cultures. But is it? There is very good evidence that Neandertals interbred with homo sapiens that left Africa. If Neandertals existed today and we had a cooperative relationship with them we would be having this exact same conversation only you would be arguing that our Genus, Homo, would be the limit to where we should resist tribalism instead of your current argument for setting that limit at species, H. sapiens.

Furthermore, there may be intelligence within the universe that makes the diversity between any two alien civilizations paltry. For all we know some galaxies might be inhabited by vast empires of nano-machine swarms that are post singularity by our standards. And what about AI within our own galaxy? If they developed their own civilization would they be so different that you would ignore the differences between H. sapiens and alien civilizations for the sake of wiping the robots out?

>>2158784
Since the haterade follow the same logic than most fascist in /new/ I'm still doing useful information on a less delicate subject.
At least we don't know yet if aliens want to kill us, that's better than what we learned of some human.

>>2158629
>You cannot form utopia. Strength is required to survival.
Utopias are by definition unreachable. However you ignore the strength in diversity and cooperation. As stated before, your attitude to alien civilizations is no different then the attitude of humans towards other groups of humans over 10,000 years ago. Huminity has only become stronger as it has learned to forgo tribalism for the sake of cooperation.

I'm not stating that we should let other species walk all over us, but this shoot first and ask questions later attitude ignores the possible benefits of cooperation and the possible problems should the show be on the other foot.

>>2158845
show=shoe

Ok, honestly?

I MAD

Here's why: everyone in this goddamn thread writes like fucking idiots as if they had giant-buttoned keyboards with prefixed words to form sentences. None of you can spell or construct a sentence that makes ANY REAL SENSE.

See >>2158840

Sagan was a great man who tried to instill sanity and hope in a world that nearly extinguished itself many times over, i.e. you wouldn't be here to shit on him if it weren't for the people LIKE CARL SAGAN who advocated nuclear disarmament, peaceful discourse among nations and scientific enlightenment.

Fantasize all you want about space empires, you worthless slime; you shall never understand the glory of a civilization that has flourished from hydrogen and unto the stars.

"Everything in this universe is rightfully ours. Any other sentient beings are merely trespassers, waiting to be purged by the holy fire of mankind"

>>2158912

>instill sanity
Sanity is for the weak.

>advocated nuclear disarmament
We still have enough nukes to kill everyone 12 times over. imokwiththisjpg.

>scientific enlightenment
Science is the objective collection of applicable data, experimentation, and the construction of predictive models. Enlightenment is not sciences goal. Science is not a philosophy, it is a tool. And a tool can be used for whatever purpose it's wielder chooses.

The only arguments people made against Sagan was that his approach to get people enthused about science did not appeal to the majority of viewers. Also we are now talking about xenocide.

And notice that when all the questions about the practicality of xenocide through the means proscribed earlier in this thread have been addressed, the detractors fall back on an emotional argument. Morality, the last bastion of a coward.

>>2158957
O' Emprah, my Emprah!

>>2158912
Here is a question I have struggled with for quite awhile now, should I forge absolute logic and level-levelheadedness for the sake of humanism?

For example, let's use the Watchmen scenario. You are the only man in a position to see with a relative great degree of certainty that humanity will in short order annihilate itself with nuclear arms. You have the means to force humanity off this suicidal path, but in so doing you must murder tens of millions of people.

Let's say you were 90% sure humanity is going to wipe itself out. You are given the choice to sacrifice 5% of the population to save insure the survival of the other 95%. The numbers are clear. The best option is for you to commit genocide. Do you do it or do you say "We stick to our crazy guns and kick logic out the door!", and simply hope for the best?

Hell, this question might not even have much do to with humanism. Basically, I'm asking if hope is good or bad. As the KFC guy said in The Matrix: Reloaded, "Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness".

>>2158702
>>2158702
>my face when humanity reaches singularity, proseeds to colonise countles planets, builds dysonspheres, sends endles swarms of berserkers to destroy every possible threat to us and finaly reaches almost god like state of teknologial capasity. Only threat left is the entropy, and we might even escape that...
(cont.)

>>2159032
(cont.)
By escaping to other timelines, we may continue our existance as posthuman gods indefinetely. If this is truly our destiny I ain't complaninig.

>>2158957
Sauce or the God Emperor of Mankind never said it.

>BAA URE FACSIST


The workhorse of liberal rhetoric.

Humans should come first before aliens. Aliens wont give a fuck about you, they will be as distant as alien as it gets and they will have no compassion for you and your bubbly optimistic little world of hugs, sunshine and cooperation between species.

>>2159075
Propaply he didn't, but the statement is prettymuch how the Imperium views humanitys palce in the universe

>>2159083
Actually facism, or should I say totaliarism is in the long run, better for humanitys survival. Democracy doesn't work, if the people don't know what they are woting for, and the evidence of this can be seen in the USA right now. It is just, back and forth fight between the two political parties, wich are controlled by the same intrestgroups to keep up the satus quo. In the end nothing substantial things that would benefit human race as a whole gets done, and the population stil thinks it has power.
And another thing. Leaders elected for 6 years will only do short term desicions that could have massive detramental effects later. Because they are held responsible for so litle time, they don't really need to care about the conciquences. Decisions should't be mane by shortsighted men, they sould be planned thinking about decades even centuries that are to come. Unfortunately nowadays if you think totalitarian system is good youll be branded as nazi.
i think that democracy, atleast in it's current form is gonna bring the downfall of humanity

>>2159098
And any fa/tg/uy will tell you that the Emperor's perspective of the universe is/was vastly different than the 40K Imperium's perspective. The Emporer was all about cooperation with other species. He knew there were greater evils afoot. That is why the Eldar so often call humans fools. The Imperium picks a fight with anything that isn't human while the Eldar, though conniving, do their best to fight off the evils of the greater universe (such as the Tyrannids).

In short, the pic of the Emp should not have been used. A Space Marine, sure; but the IGEoM had the good sense to know when to pick fights and the benefits of cooperation.

>>2159189
Yeah, in retrospect, I should have used another picture. But I am tired and lazy, so what can I do?

>>2159032
>>2159054
doubt it, if it were possible we would be getting raped and pillaged right now by some other alien god entity that beat us to singularity

>>2159222
But what if we are first?? Don't be a buzz kill. There has to be a way to escape the entropy. If we are doomed to be torn apart by the wast powers of the universe no mater what we do, then why leghten the strugle.
I only mean that if we ever reach the point that is the premise of the comic, we should do all we can to find a way to escape or nullify the entropy. Othervise all we will ever acomplish will be in vain,

>>2159189
Bullshit, you sir are no fa/tg/uy. The Emperor was about humanity first, last, and only. Remember the Great Crusade, the one he lead at first, killed thousands of alien races for the crime of being xenos filth and billions of humans for the crime of not being Terran enough to bow down instantly. The Emperor only cared about the race as a whole. It was his commandment that humanity was superior and was the only race worthy to exist in the end. He and the even 'modern' Imperium don't attack the space elves often because there are worse things out there, but that does not mean that he wouldn't have purged the Eldar in the end.


And the Eldar are race of pricks that manipulate others to preserve their own species after 99% got eaten by a God of Making More Holes to Fuck and Torture. If killing a trillion humans would save one spess elf they'd do it. Now the humans would do the exact same thing if they could see the future, but that does not make the Eldar the good guys. There are not good guys in that fictional setting. You know how they stop Space Bugs and Space Orks from wrecking their shit? By tricking them into wrecking the Imperium's shit.

Teh Moar U Know

>>2159032
>singularity
>humanity... god-like status
In a post-singularity world, humanity wouldn't even understand half the shit AI's were inventing. It currently takes a good portion of a human's life to grasp any one minute field of research. We simply know too much. If we have AI's accelerating and complicating "human knowledge" then even the most intelligent human won't be able to fully grasp any one field. The only means of keeping the reigns in hands of more directly linked progenitors would be through transhumanism, in which case you are blurring what it means to be human to such a degree that the differences between humanity and alien civilizations becomes insignificant.

>>2159184
>Democracy doesn't work

I guess that's why the first-world democracies have such low standards of living, while the Soviet Union is such a paradise? Oh wait, the USSR collapsed under the weight of it's own totalitarianism and the every country in the world with a good standard of living is democratic while the many autocracies of the world are almost invariably shitholes. Even in military terms, who is the sole superpower of the world? America! Who is second in terms of military power? Europe! You think you've got problems? Guess what: China has them too!

>>2159268
>implying that transhumanism realised isn't the whole premise of that thing.

Future hold nothing for natural humans. Only the cyberneticly and genetically modified humans will ever reach the stars. Most likely, if we sorvive to that point in the comic, humanity would be colection of differend creatures, that are decendants of humanity. AI:s, cyborgs, genetic supermen ect.
We propaply couldn recodnise them as humans. Essentually we would become these:
>>2157294

>>2159337

And cavemen couldnt recognize us, your point?

>>2159289

>implying that our quality of life is the result of democracy and not capitalism.

Totalitarism that I want isn't like the soviet shithole. It would be the educated elite making the important decicions, and guarenteering that the citicens can live confortably. in most cases people vote for the carismatic guy, who doesn't nececarily know anything about the things he7she is suposed to deside on. I don't support any mas tought police organisations and soviet style finaccial planning. This is more about decicion making.
For example. In my homecountry (Finland) last summer the goverment was deciding on the extra nuclear pover thing. There was a massive uproar of greenpeace fuckwits who knew nothing of the energy issue our nation would face if we didn't make extra nuclear plants. Lucily the goverment wasn't swayed by the puplic opinion this time, but there is a serious risk that the next goverment is gonna nullify the decicion, forcing our nation to be dependant on Russian electresity. All this shit only because the gp idiots shit their pants when someone uses the n word.
These fools have no plase choosing our goverment, filling it with same kind of bleeding heart idiots ass themselves.
Do you see my point?

>>2159388
i think they woud see that we are humans. They would just think that we know how to use magic or some shit like that.
The posthuman creature on the otherhand could be almost anything, from AI:s, inteligent nanoswarms and robots to genetically modified humans that would look like animals, fictional cratures and so forth. See my point now?

>>2159289
>>2159426
>>2159184
There is no solution. Democracy, Anarchy, Facism, Communism, Socialism, and even Capitalism are all failures.

There is one thing we humans do well, and that's fight. We will kill each other and anything else that stands in our way until the stars grow dim, then we will fight some more. The same will be true for our descendants. It's what we are, and what the children of man will always be. It is unavoidable. And more to the point we should never try to change it. It has made us strong, and it will help us stay vicious enough to destroy any and all possible threats to our own species and all it's descendants.

Humanity, it's what we are and it's what we lack.

>>2159506
Humanity: the craziest, most murderous motherfuckers of the jungle, now IN SPACE

Fuck yeah!

>>2154323
>whole slew of opinionated, generalized horse shit

They don't think like that, you probably don't have an MS in Geology and you're a cunt.

These are the scientific facts.

>>2159289

I hope you don't mean to imply that the US is a democracy, because it isn't. It's a representative republic.

>>2159451

Going from small hunter-gatherer tribes into cities with ten million inhabitants and internet was just as huge of a jump as the singularity wil be.

Also, it will be a slow progress, cyborgs wont pop up magically, we already have working implants and and they will slowly become more and more common as finally it will be blindingly mundane an ubiquitous, just like smartphones, PCs, flying, internet, and tap water.

>>2159583

Eyeglasses technically make you a cyborg, and we've had those for hundreds of years.

>>2159583
Did I imply that it would be some macical jump of wonders. of course it will be a gradual proses.

>>2159583
What I think will be most interesting is the differences I how augmentation is done by different individuals.

I can see two major camps forming.

1)Ghost in shell type pretty people that like to have wireless internet in there heads, and get philosophical about the nature of man. Semi-organic, smooth lines, and integrated parts. Transhumanism Classic.

2)Adeptus Mechanicus type guys that don't care about information sharing or philosophy of the mind. They just have a radio and speaker set next to a tympanic membrane in their heads because both being hacked and social contact are for sissies, they just want to be smarter and stronger. Lots of industrial strength stuff like reinforced hydraulics, boxy utilitarian designs, hulking bodies, wearing extra processors in a backpack and slowing letting there nervous system integrate with them.

>>2158407
>they could be methane based, silicon based, have cobalt or copper in place of iron in their blood

Not part of your argument, but whoa there.
I agree that there's no reason to expect life to be similar to us, but don't go spouting off a list of chemical combinations you know nothing about.

A carbon base is more likely than you think because it is VERY favorable energetically and mechanically. Silicon is far less so, and methane is carbon. Also we already have plenty of life with copper-based blood right here on Earth.

>>2159671
I gotta say, that the group 2 are gonna look way more awesome than the group 1

>>2159686
How could nervous system ever adapto to that kind of retard desing?

About people blathering about humanity's survival being important... WHY? It has no effect on you after you die. Ultimate rationalism is to only care about YOUR own existence. Caring about the future of humanity is just giving in to 40k humanity fantasies.

>>2159729
Google manhattan beach project.
Ralise you are gonna live for ever :D

>>2159506
Your giving into this whole "HUMANITY IS GREAT" "IF HUMANITY IS THE LAST SPECIES STANDING IT SOMEHOW IMPACTS ME AFTER I DIE" is just as intellectually masturbatory as someone believing in some impossible space-UN or alien hippie races smoking bongs in space dispensing wisdom to human explorers.

Caring about things that do not benefit or help YOU at all, is highly illogical. It's the same biological nonsense that makes people care about their children being successful after they die.
Also, WH40k was a parody.

>>2159744
Yes, but if by some chance he or I DON'T live forever, does it really matter to either of us if, the minute after we both die, the planet EXPLODES or the universe tears or one of the galactic constants for some reason becomes too weak and everyone just atomizes?

>>2159729
>>2159746
>>2159753
Also the biologist in me wants alien life in space zoos. If you just go around berzerker probing we'll know nothing about the history of the galaxy. Not that it matters though, because if the Manhattan Project doesn't come to fruition, the future of humanity outside of where I am is completely unimportant except for pure intellectual masturbation.

>>2159671
I would try to become MORE than human, not just BETTER. Give me the Mantis prawns vision, and a brain the size of a bus(or computer implant substitute).

>>2159673
I think we might see a lot, perhaps even the majority of people end up like the AdMech spiritually.

The hole religion giving way to science thing that intellectuals from 1890-1950 predicted just is not happening. Because if you aren't a literalist there is no contradiction between supernaturalism and the scientific method. You couldn't objectively observe supernatural phenomena and it would impossible to create a predictive model anyway. Even if supernatural events occurred they would look like they had route cause in natural phenomena. Hence you would always look for the natural phenomenon that caused it anyway. You meet lots of people with natural science degrees that are devout in one sect or another. And a look of them that I've talked with feel that augmented humans may be able to experience a more complete subjective divination of nature of the divine. I even knew a Baptist preacher who thought that mechanical augmentation could allow humans to voluntarily remove unneeded emotional weaknesses, it was his opinion that all laziness and non reproductive sexual behavior was equally immoral solely because it was inefficient. He thought we should all just reproduce with artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization.

>>2159746
No you seen humans are useful to me. Since we are of the same species I can use them to my ends effectively and they will simultaneously be using me to further their own goals. I can't have every idea or make every invention alone, so to a certain extent I rely on other humans. So it is in my interest to only kill them when absolutely necessary.

But xenos are no human, I may not be able to predict their behavior. For that matter the alien's behaviors could very well be antithetical to all of my own. So it's best to kill them than to take the risk of dealing with them.

>>2159789
While that guy you mentioned sounds awesome, an overwhelming majority of scientists are atheists. It's much more usual for a non-scientist to be religious than a scientist.

>>2159812
But if humans might not have an idea because you hadn't thought of it, wouldn't aliens be MORE likely to do that, if you had properly studied the ways their brains worked or whatever? Also, couldn't killing off all of humanity and just replacing them with AIs be easier in the long-term from an individual standpoint? Less maintenance.

Having all these humans who could potentially end your own life is dangerous. It's best to just replace everything with a machine that can't work against you.

>>2159823
Non from my anecdotal experience.

>>2159789
The admech have a lot of problems, but at least they look cool. Logic is fine, as long as you use it to understand everything.

>>2159184
>Actually facism, or should I say totaliarism is in the long run, better for humanitys survival
Ideally, yeah. In a simple world where citizens do as their told and don't give a damn about their own well being, and where leaders aren't selfish or incompetent (and barring the simple inability of any one group of humans to efficiently control every aspect of society), then a totalitarian state will indeed provide the greatest ability to get work done. However, none of those stipulations hold in reality.

Any one individual might hold the well being of humanity of his or her own well being, but one obviously can't rely on EVERY human holding such a view. It must be assumed that humans are selfish. With that in mind, deep down, humans only contribute to society because it is in their best interests. Society provides too many benefits and is hard to resists unless the will to resist is held by many.

A totalitarian government is, by definition if I'm not mistaken, uncaring about the wants and needs of the individual. This leads to large portions of the society coming to the conclusion their best interests are not fulfilled by being part of a such a society. In which case they either leave the area of control of said society or they revolt. It isn't stable and stability is just as important if not more important than efficiency.

By contrast, democracy is inefficient (it spends a lot of resources on personal comforts and the decisions of the majority are rarely well informed), but it is stable because the population always have an outlet for their dissatisfaction with the government. Revolution only occurs when a large part of the population is dissatisfied (barring military queues) and the great thing about democracy is that the larger a group becomes the more say they have, thus revealing their dissatisfaction.

>>2159860
The ideal government would be a totalitarian or despot regime or dictatorship with a benevolent leader in charge who knows what the hell he's doing. At least until an incorruptible machine is sufficient to take his place.

>>2159506
You have no reason to call them failures because you haven't defined what their goals were. You seem to assume they are all supposed to lead to utopias, which is simply a stupid assumption on your part. They are what they are.

By that same logic I could say humanity sucks at fighting because we have yet to destroy the universe.

>>2159838
Well that's exactly my point I have a masters degree, and most of grad students I knew in 2002-2003 professed to be religious. Science has not interest or opinion on the supernatural because even if it exists it can never effect the scientific method. Hell I knew an astromomer that thought the belief in God would drive people to look for the progenitor of the Big Bang, then the what every phenomena caused that, and so on forever even with the knowledge that they would never find what they seek by the very nature of the methodology they were using. He was of the opinion that impossible goals were the best because they kept you hungry and gave you further behavioral reinforcement as chased an unattainable goal.

Even a man who has nothing can still have faith. And I'm not talking specifically about faith in divinity, faith in the power and destiny of the species, or even just faith in your own abilities and the correctness of your goal can drive you on just as well.

>>2159883
Well their professed goal is to organize humanity so it does not fight as much. Which they have failed at, we fight as much as we ever did.

As for the fighting, well we have not really tried even galactic conquest yet, which is kind of the point of this thread. We can begin the preliminary steps right now, so we should try. Although we may try and fail, we will never succeed if we don't at least try.

>>2159905
>Well their professed goal is to organize humanity so it does not fight as much.
Those are not their professed goals, nor do they have any. They are what they are and nothing more.

>>2159905
Are you professing that organized governments of any type fight more than areas thrown into anarchy or back when humans were tribal?

I'd rather think that a government merely exists to prop up things like laws and things like that. Not to mention nowadays governments are incredibly helpful at times when it comes to giving sciences money.

Science and understanding everything should be humanity's goal.

>>2159905
No I'm saying that if you combine violent crime and war together you get about the same violence percapita as the old tribal systems.

I don't think that is a bad thing. Just that they profess that less violence and more stability is their goal, and they don't deliver. And I don't want them to. Not that I am some kind of anarchist, I like statism more than even tribalism because the large scale organisation allows more science and conquest related stuff to get done. Imperialism is one of the best and oldest human practices I think it deserves more fanfare than the political organizations get. It has done more to advance the technologic aspects of our society than any other single human institution.

Science is the road to power and power is the road to survival, both for the individual and the species.

>>2159867
1) Your "benevolent dictator" is pipe dream for several reasons:
   A) There is no system that exists that could consistently put such individuals into power.
   B) Any one benevolent dictator that comes to power is still mortal and thus your society will remain stable for a mere 50 years.
   C) The entire idea of a good government is a system that best deals with the realities of humanity. You are simply defining your benevolent dictator as someone who best deals with the realities of humanity. That is like saying the combustion engine is the best engine because a perfect engineer could build a perfect combustion engine.

2) Your "incorruptible machine" is a pipe dream for the same reasons listed above save small alterations:
   A) There is no means of creating such a machine, nor is there a standard criteria to judge what characteristics the machine would have would be best.
   B) Even if the machine is in effect immortal by human standards, it is still subject to ailment (breaking) and death (destruction by outside forces). Such a machine would no doubt be target if the "greater good" doesn't satisfy everyone.
   C) And again, the same "best engine... perfect engineer" fallacy applies.

>>2160019
Manhattan project means that my benevolent dictator may not actually be mortal! However the third part stands.

>>2159914
That is their goal. only reason why goverments exist in the first plaze is to stop humans from harming eachother, so that we can wor better in larger groups than we normally do. Individual can sucsesfully asosiate itself with about 150 other humans. Over that number it is going to get harder and tribalism starts to develop. Goverments are there to expand the numbers of individuals humans can asosiate with themselves

>>2159581
I hope you don't mean to imply the USA is a representative republic, it's not. It's a plutocracy.

ITT: scibots think their mastery of science makes them tactful diplomats and politicians. VERY basic tip, distrust works. Speak softly and carry a big weapon. And know your potential (maybe guaranteed) enemy.

Also 40k is awesome, fuck you faggots.

>>2161615
>Also 40k is awesome, fuck you faggots.

Only people here that didn't like 40k were those bleeding heart hippies who oposed the berserker plan, and the idea of human dominated milkyway. No need to insult us all.

Sending out Berzerkers as soon as we hit the singularity is the obvious course of action.

Humanity, fuck yeah!

Ah this tread is still active. I love you /sci/
You are the only outlet for my xenosidal fantasies beside /tg/ and 40k. Keep up the discussion.

I think it is fucking hilarious, how this thread got from anime Sagan to galaxy wide xenocide and human domination.
Like how do the two conect. Sagan was all about the peace and curiosity of humans, and still most of the thead was about practicality and the morality of murdering all alien species. I don't even know what to think about this.

The great silence (i.e., absence of SETI signals from alien civilizations) is perhaps the strongest indicator of all that high relativistic velocities are attainable and that everybody out there knows it.

The sobering truth is that relativistic civilizations are a potential nightmare to anyone living within range of them. The problem is that objects traveling at an appreciable fraction of light speed are never where you see them when you see them (i.e., light-speed lag). Relativistic rockets, if their owners turn out to be less than benevolent, are both totally unstoppable and totally destructive. A starship weighing in at 1,500 tons (approximately the weight of a fully fueled space shuttle sitting on the launchpad) impacting an earthlike planet at "only" 30 percent of lightspeed will release 1.5 million megatons of energy -- an explosive force equivalent to 150 times today's global nuclear arsenal...

I'm not going to talk about ideas. I'm going to talk about reality. It will probably not be good for us ever to build and fire up an antimatter engine. According to Powell, given the proper detecting devices, a Valkyrie engine burn could be seen out to a radius of several light-years and may draw us into a game we'd rather not play, a game in which, if we appear to be even the vaguest threat to another civilization and if the resources are available to eliminate us, then it is logical to do so.

The game plan is, in its simplest terms, the relativistic inverse to the golden rule: "Do unto the other fellow as he would do unto you and do it first."...

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.

If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.
2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.

No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.

We ask that you try just one more thought experiment. Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That's when the monsters come out. There's always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.

It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can't read minds.

Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.

How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, "I'm here!" The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, "I'm a friend!"

What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don't want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.

There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.

There is no policeman.

There is no way out.

And the night never ends.

I really don't see why international cooperation can't extend to interspecies cooperation. If we're not the first to get out there, we may have a relationship similar to that between humans and dogs. They use us for labour that requires somewhat intelligent beings, and in return protect us and provide us with our needs.

Domesticated dogs live better lives than wild ones. I imagine "domesticated" humans would too.

>>2161742
I think a better analogy would be:
You're living in an oasis in a desert. You have a comfortable life there. You can see, if you climb a tree that's high enough, some other oases far off in the distance, several days walk away. You speculate that there may be someone living on them too, but you've got no idea what they're like, whether they've got the same tools and technology as you, what language they speak, etc.

You venture out, hopping from oasis to oasis, but find nobody for a while. The first person you find turns out to be militaristic and defensive, and stabs you to death.

The same distance in the other direction from your home oasis was someone else who was just lonely like you.

>>2161744
But wouldn't it be easier for the aliens to just build robot for that instead. They would be more efficent and wouldn't need to be trained. Dogs arent really useful for modern humans. They are mainly kept for the sentimental value, and I doubt that the aliens would find us cute or adorable, like we find the dogs. Humans think that the pets are cute simply because they remind us of our young. It is higly impropable, that humans looked anything like aliens.

>>2161751
But if we ad the bersekers to that analogy it chainges considerbly. imagine that you have a pack of dogs, that are loyal to you, only you. You send them to the other oasises, where they will kill anything, that it isn't you, and then continue onwards. Your living area expands with them.

>>2161809
Presumably other aliens will / have already sent their own berserkers out too.

They could arrive any day now. Thing to keep in mind is that there may be "Benevolent Berserkers", i.e. they go to war with active spacefaring civs, but if they encounter a pre-spacefaring civilization they may simply establish a quarantine around them so they can never set up any space infrastructure.

Kind of like a "sorry, it's nothing personal but we can't let you become a threat so you have to stay on your planet" thing.

>>2159581
America is a representative democracy. Check your definitions, you dog-sucking, duck-fucking, triple-dicked-vagina-faced fuckpile.

>>2161694

40K is awesome all right, but only because it`s not as stupid as you militant faggots read it to be.
The "mighty" Empire is always on the brink of total Chaos, whose gods enjoy playing with humans in millenia-spanning plots. Every "victory" is a pyrric one, and everyday life in the Empire? Lol, I see you guys down a shaft on some forge world...

>>2162094

You are correct. WH40k isn't really Humanity fuck yeah! setting. It's more like Everyone WTF setting. only factions that are doing even remotely well are the tyranids, necrons, orks, and maybe dark eldar. Arguably the setting is more Orks Fuck Yeah! because the orks are actually enjoying themselves on the madnes and carnage.
i atleas don't see the humanity depicted in 40k ideal for us. But you need to realise that if humans had done the berserker plan in the 40k setting there wouldn't be the grimderp that there is now. Humanity would be dominant, and that's it.
Only thing, that I agree with the imperium, is their attitude towards xenos, nothing else.

>>2158033
>>JRRR HBOX THEM IN YOU CAN DO IT
alright I'm done with you
you have your head so far up your ass you cannot seem to even accept the possibility that an alien race other than humans can be multi system. It's a joke, oh, and its pretty laughable you don't think there are dyson spheres either. How the hell could we tell seperated by the light years. Half way across the galaxy there could be hundreds and we'd never know till the light winked out. conversely, we've only been in the radio game for 70 years. but enough, These things wont get in the way of your raging boner of an R complex, for all your praise of 'humanity' the only thing driving your thoughts is a fucking dinosaur.

>>2162133
the assertion that it is a fuck yeah setting isn't far off, it basicaly is not in RAW, but since most fucking grognards and 40kids pick the empire of man, and cant wait 2 seconds before spouting that horrible propaganda and scream heresy at anything they don't like, its fairly clear what kind of fantasies 40k allows them to live out. hopefully these fuckers will stay in their basements.

>>2162142
Fuck the Empire. Eldar are/were far superior. With much more class...compare an Eldar world to human one... Even tried to warn stupid Fulgrim, who as true human was already corrupted anyway.

I don't know where to begin. I'm not even sure which post to start replying to.
This whole berserker RVK thing is absolutely retarded, because we would be doing it unprovoked.
We aren't fucked ATM, meaning that any advanced alien life out there decided to -not- nuke the entire galaxy.
So how come no alien life decided to kill everything but themselves in the entire galaxy?
I'm guessing it's because no species with that extreme traits of aggression would ever be able to develop technologically much further than the atom bomb. I'm thinking that a culture which wholeheartedly follows "The best defense is a good offense" wouldn't be able to keep the cold war cold.

>>2161738
>>2161742

Yeah, I've read this before. The problem with it remains is its underlying assumption that there will be at least some semblance of parity. That between two sapient species separated by the galactic gulf, one will be sufficiently within arms reach of the other intelligence that they might actually pose a threat.

Ridiculous. It's so unlikely that it may as well be impossible. In the spans of time we must deal with on the terms of evolution, planetary mechanics, and stellar mechanics either we or they will be so far ahead that one is in no realistic danger from the other. There is no fair contest here.

Simply put, at best it would be a monumental waste of effort, even as relatively trivial as that effort would be. At worst it would be a monumental waste of effort that called out "Hey! Here we are! We're aggressive and paranoid! Kill us!" to some empire whose scope and power we could scarcely comprehend.

So no. Let's not.

>>2162136

Not the guy you are talking, but I'll respond anyways.

I think it was stated pretty clearly, that the race with the most systems would eventually win. How the hell do you twist this to:

>herpderp u think aliens cant settle other systems

And did some one disagree with the notion about the dysonspheres. It was stated multiple times, that right now there could be hundreds of species doing this plan at the otherside of the galaxy, and we yost dont see them yet.

Isn't that even bigger reason to start the berserker plan. Because if we actually saw dyson spheres on with our satelites, it would only mean that we'd be royally fucked. And you still haven't presented any valid argument against the berserker plan.
It's only been like this.
>Baaaw Its cruel and mean and aliens could do the same, but they for some reason they won't if we won't start it.

We can't predict uterly alien behavior. We don't know if they are hostile or friendly, but the risk a hostile spacefaring civilization presents is so big, only rational course of action is pre-emptive berserker srike. If we wipe out friendly species, we lose what? Trading partners and fellas that we can talk to. Humans can do that. If we wipe out hostile civilization we prevent them doing the same for us.
So wich you prefer. Some exotic guests for your litle hippy teaparties and the risk of hostile rational species, or situation where your teaguest have to remain human and there is no other civ redy to fuck us with berserkers.

>>2162150
uptight faggots

>>2162151
>We aren't fucked ATM, meaning that any advanced alien life out there decided to -not- nuke the entire galaxy.

Or they didn't get the idea, or the berserkers are on their way right now, or they were sissies and desided not to do that, wich then dooms themselves to die in the hands of a species that does it.
Or maybe humans are the most advanced civilization currently inhabiting the milky way. You can't make up asumptions like that and simply say tha violent civilizations kill themselves. If history teaches us anything, the agressive civs win.

>>2162212
Yeah, sort of. At least they have reason, like being the masters of Teh Univers once. Astartes, not uptight, no?

>>2162252

Fuck astartes also. Raging impotent uptight fags is what they are. Only not uptight factions are orks and maybe dark eldar. Orks are just having fun and deldar are the master trolls of 40k

>mfw aliens come along once they notice us, calmly disable our weapons, and welcome all those that are willing to go with them, propagating as part of a united multi-species force throughout the universe.

Pretty much the combine from Half-life, but not totalitarian.

>>2162269
An why would they do that, istead of blowing us up and disassembling our planet for resourses.
Face it. The benevolent idea of aliens is just a substitude for the idea of benevolent deities. Advanced aliens that could rach earth just like that would most likely treat us as we treat some rats that live in the construction site.

>>2162197
>>observation:someone is harvesting the power of the sun
>>Conclusion:BERSERKER DROIDS
I said I was done, you haven't presented any new arguements and continue to make the most bullheaded assumptions, and you haven't resolved any issue I've put forth, just straw-manned it.

Humanity can kill Universe, discuss

>>2162281

>avoids the argumen't I presented

>implying that I am the same person who started this argument

>implying your argument's weren't already refuted by other people than me

>implying that you aren't leaving because you already lost.

Seriously your only argument besides the emotional ones was that the alien would retaliate. It was argued over by many people who can articulate it far better than I can. You apparently ignored. At the point tha aliens realize they are under attack it is already too late.

>215 posts and 49 image replies omitted
this thread shows why /sci/ is a festering pile of shit

>>2162313
>Somewhat rational discussion about xenocide.

>This for some reason isn't better than the countles religion vs atheism treads that infest this board.

>wat

>>2162313
Oh. So you`d rather have religion vs homework one?

>>2162136
Already addressed here >>2158124 right below the one you were bitching about. I mean come on guys, this discussion has actually been fairly productive for hammering down all the details of this hypothetical scenario, if nothing else it will let someone write a decent scifi plot.

>>2162193
>Yeah, I've read this before. The problem with it remains is its underlying assumption that there will be at least some semblance of parity. That between two sapient species separated by the galactic gulf, one will be sufficiently within arms reach of the other intelligence that they might actually pose a threat.

We are talking about conflict within the Milkly Way only, and if you read these >>2154478 >>2154496 >>2154491 then you can see that the galaxy is actually a relatively small place to a species with access to relativistic space craft, at least on a geologic time scale.

And if you had high speed relativistic travel(0.7C+) you could readily go to another galaxy within the lifetime of a human crew. Remember the closer you approach the speed of light the more time dilates for the crew of the ship. At trip to Andromeda would take about 5 years "ship time" if you could get up to 0.7 C.

Space is really fucking big but intelligent species can readily spread through it without any ftl bullshit.

u guys, hey u guys! Look what I made for this tread!
:D

>>2162399

Fixed.

>>2162409
Lol'd

>>2162352

>>facepalm

>>2162193 Here

I suppose the term 'within Arms reach' must have been confusing; that'll teach me to mix metaphors. To clarify, when I say Parity, I'm speaking of equivalency in terms of strength not 'X can reach Y.'

"There will be Apes or Angels, but no men." When it comes to interstellar empire, whoever gets out there first, who takes that bold leap into the unknown, will have a massive headstart over all other comers. The possibility of another species, in our galactic neighborhood, who is within, say, a million years of us, in either direction in terms of advancement, is vanishingly small.

Again, we are either not in danger and hold a tremendous advantage, or are already tremendously outmatched by a species that beat us to the punch, likely before modern homo sapiens sapiens had even evolved. Granted, the latter seems tremendously unlikely given that we see no sign of the giant in the playground, but in either case, I still must conclude that filling the Galaxy with Berserkers seems wholly unnecessary, and in the latter case, entirely too risky.

>>2162309
Nope, I chose not to participate because
A. you have no position and its based on ignoring evidence and baseless assertions like a creationist. so its not even intellectually entertaining to talk with you
B. this isn't a serious debate, its a thread on 4chan with a 40kid and I have little to worry about masses following your crack pot plan from leaving

>>2162438
Once again you act like you are debating against one person. There have been multiple arguments for the berserker plan that I didn't make on this tread, arguments, that you convinently seem to ignore.

Neither I nor you have facts to back this shit up. You are entertainig the idea, that spacefaring species are going to be friendly, but compleatly ignore their possible treat to us. I and the other who support the plan think, that the risks of hostile civilizations far oughtweigh the hypotetical possibility of a friendly species.
You are the one who keeps ignoring arguments and uses adhominems. Your posision is based on ignoring arguments against your baseles assertion, that aliens could be in any way benefitical and not a potential threat to us. We know from life on earth that life is constant strugle for recourses , why would this chainge in space.

And peoples hobby preferences don't affect their ability to use reason and argue.

>>2162479
>>more baseless assertions about what I'm doing and lies about what i said
keep making things up. I'm sure you'll hit the mark through trial and error sometime.

>>2162479
>>adhominem
nice responding to tone there.

>>2162429
>>2162429
There are a few problems with the classic "aliens and apes" argument. It's more a statement regarding the internal logic soft science fiction settings where anything is possible because you are "advance" than a statement about the realities of technological change. Yes I too have read the Atomic Rocket sight, remember that the sight was made specifically to encourage people to write what the author things of as "good" scifi.

First there is no way to determine the rate at which aliens would advance technologically(it could be faster or slower than our own), but it is possible to measure the rate at which they could spread if they used the most primitive nuclear pulse propulsion drives(1 million years for galactic conquest), so that is the metric we will have to use because we have not other.

Second a much younger and even individually dumber species could overtake another much older and smarter one technologically through sheer numbers. They could spread to enough stellar systems and convert enough of the mass of those systems to computational equipment and new individuals that they are doing orders of magnitude more scientific research than another species. Remember even quantum computers have to deal with the light speed computation limit so at a certain point more advanced computers does not mean faster computers. And if these separate stellar systems used light speed communicates to transfer data they could all advance beyond that of the smaller but older civilization. In science as well as war, quantity has a quality all its own.

(to be continued)

(continued from)>>2162652


Thirdly, there are a limited number of ways to propel a relativistic spaceship: nuclear pulse propulsion, external laser initiated fusion pulse propulsion, internally confined fusion drives, or an matter/antimatter annihilation. These now some of those drives let you go much faster than others but once you get up to antimatter drives you cannot have higher fuel density. Now to be sure a more advanced species would have a more advanced version of the drives and allow them to have higher specific impulse or fuel/weight ratios but the drives have limits. Nuclear pulse propulsion and external pulse fusion drives can reach 0.15C, confined fusion drives can reach 0.3-0.5(they are the most speculative form of drive), there is no way to make ramjets work in interstellar space so we have to dismiss them, and antimatter engines could reach 0.86C. Those are the limits physics sets, not engineering. Technologic advancements in other areas would make the ships lighter, stronger, more easily replicated, ect. But this would not change the basic design. These are advantages but they do not make you immune to a much more primitive attack using similar technology.

Lets say we have our advanced society with antimatter reaction engines with a maximum attainable velocity of 0.7C and it is attacked by a much more primitive race that only had nuclear pulse propulsion vessels with a maximum attainable velocity of 0.1C. If that more primitive species had spread far enough and had enveloped the territory of the other species, it would still have an advantage.

(to be continued)

(continued from)
>>2162667
Oh to be sure the more advanced species' antimatter driven berserker probes would be far more effective, they could fire their reaction engine at any stellar system they were invading and destroy a significant number of the local civilizations defenses and war material. However even with the extra utility of the matter/antimatter reaction engine as a weapon, the ship could still be overwhelmed if the local species has converted enough of the planetary mass of the system into war material.

And if their ships are already as fast and efficient as is possible with the most advanced engine design possible(matter/antimatter), they being the more advanced race, then there is little improvement to be made on their ship design, due to the limits physics itself imposes on the maximum velocities of relativistic spacecraft of different engine types. Meanwhile their enemy, being comparatively primitive, has a great deal of improvement that can be made to it's ships. Over hundreds or thousands of years, which is within the time scale for a long relativistic conflict, they could adopt a less efficient version of the matter/antimatter drive you yourself utilize. The more advanced race might see it's advantage slowly whittled away. Where once it could destroy a thousand enemy warships or probes for every one of it's own lost, now it can only destroy 100, then 50, then 20. And eventually it may be overcome by similarly advanced enemy.

There are certain ways for the more advanced civilization to break out of an encirclement if it is lucky. It could just concentrate all the resources of it's stellar system/s on just one of the enemy systems at a time. Hopefully allowing it to overwhelm each enemy occupied system individually and utilize the material in it for further it's own war effort. But can it do this while under siege itself, especially if it has suffered a first strike. Perhaps, perhaps not.

(to be continued)

(Continued from)
>>2162672
The final option the advanced civilization has is to flee in its high speed relativistic ships, either to a distance section of the galaxy or another galaxy entirely. But this itself is not a permanent escape. If they flee to another section of the galaxy them may simply suffer the same fate as before, assuming the aggressive race does not already in habit the portion of the galaxy they flee to. Fleeing to another galaxy could also only delay the problem, since it would take tens of millions of years to reach the other galaxy, of course to the crews it would only take a few decades due to time dilation. But now the aggressive species has had tens of millions of years to reach the same level of technological development that the older species had. And if the older species matter/antimatter driven ships could reach another galaxy, now the younger races new ships can as well. And unless that elder race can pull are miracle out of it's ass in the ten million years it before the younger species reaches it's galaxy, they this time they will have not technological advantage. Though if they imperialistically dominate their new galaxy they would have enough resources to beat off the comparatively meager invasions the younger race could send. Imperialism is the only real option for survival.

(to be continued)

>>2162528
>>2162524
>again complitely ignoring the argument
>implyig you aren't a troll

(Continued from)
>>2162680


Fourth, since it may take hundreds of years for an alien probe to reach its destination on a short journey, it may be using nuclear pulse propulsion while the race that created it has begun using a matter/antimatter reaction to drive its current ships and probes.

For a species to be absolutely assured of it's dominance and safety over it's home galaxy, it most not only be the most advanced race, but the most numerous as well. This would maximize the amount of work being done to advance technologically and ensure a adequate number of forces to destroy over advanced lifeforms. It is not just about being the first species but also about being the firs to spread. Just because it seems that there is no threat to us now since we are most advanced race in this galaxy, does not mean that there is no eventual threat. Any imperialistic species could defeat a much older and more advanced species, if the younger one was allowed an open field to collect resources and spread. And preventative invasion of first this galaxy and eventually the entire universe it the only way to ensure our indefinite survival.

(done)

This is a very productive thread to far as getting people to try and figure out what would be going on in the hardest hard scifi setting I have every heard of. Keep it Imperialists and Haters of Space Imperialism. Every time somebody calls someone else retarded and points out a mistake, other guy steps in for figure out a solution. It's like peer review, expect with more pseudo Nazi imagery.

I have to say, that this thread has been one of the most interesting ones I've red. And remarcably civil.

/sci/ needs more threads like these. From sagan, to xenocide to 40k and back to xenocide, I've had wonderful time old chaps. Keep up the good discussion. Human galactic imperialism waits.

>>2162684
I don't need to address your argument when you make it a point to ignore mine, next please.

>>2162731

This is the first post of mine directed at you
>>2162197
How do I ignore your argument again?
You state here
>>2162136
that some how this other guy doesn't think that aliens kan have multiple systems. I corect you by telling that it has been stated multiple times, that the survival in a war like this depends on the number of system that they control, and that humanity would only win if we'd had numerical advantage or the attacked first.
Then I corect you on your statements about the dysonspheres.

After that I present my argument:
"We can't predict uterly alien behavior. We don't know if they are hostile or friendly, but the risk a hostile spacefaring civilization presents is so big, only rational course of action is pre-emptive berserker srike. If we wipe out friendly species, we lose what? Trading partners and fellas that we can talk to. Humans can do that. If we wipe out hostile civilization we prevent them doing the same for us.
So wich you prefer. Some exotic guests for your litle hippy teaparties and the risk of hostile rational species, or situation where your teaguest have to remain human and there is no other civ redy to fuck us with berserkers"

Wich to you haven't still responded.

After this you haven't presented new arguments, and only responded by ignoring mine.

So are you a troll or illiterate?