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  • File : 1273125200.jpg-(162 KB, 625x595, mvr2.jpg)
    162 KB Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:53:20 No.8780715  
    If both Roman and Mongol Empires existed at the same time and at the height of their respective expansions, taking into account weapons, tactics and numbers, who would win?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:56:22 No.8780756
    romans easy imo
    more advanced military tactics and just all around more advanced
    i mean for fucks sake they were more advanced than people like 1000 years later
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:57:02 No.8780764
    Mongols, probably.

    Romans sucked when it came to fighting cavalry armies, see the Parthians and the Sassanid campaigns.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:58:05 No.8780774
    mongols
    Romans didnt have alot of good, quick calvary, they used alot of auxilaries to make up for this, but infantry were their mainstay troops, and calvary always pwns infantry
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:58:07 No.8780775
    well it depends on the resource gathering abilities of the civilian populations that most support the armies as they march across the vast empires to fight in the foreign battlefields and they would need a reliable and dependable form of transportation that can operate on little rest or provisions, the animals would also need to be loyal and friendly and having fluffy fur the soldiers to masturbate into would give a huge boost to morale. so the obvious choice would be husky sled dogs, and since the eskimos had these dogs and unlimited supplies of klondike bars for provisions and they also eat whales, the largest mammals on earth. so i think the eskimos would win. assuming the sea shepards dont fuck there shit up for messing with the whales.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:58:18 No.8780780
    Mongolians. This isn't even debatable. The Mongols took down the middle east at the height of their empire, and raped every european army they came up against.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)01:58:40 No.8780785
    WHAT IF NAPLEON HAD NOOKS?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!11one
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:00:06 No.8780810
    are we talking post military reform rome?
    if so romans would dominate
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:00:45 No.8780826
    Mongols by far and away. There's no way their crappy archers or cavalry would be any match.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:00:52 No.8780829
    It really depends on where and the circumstances of the invasion. Romans coming into rugged Mongol territory, or the Mongols going in for surprise buttsex = Roman Waterloo. Romans planning their shit out and fighting on somewhat-hospitable ground = Vini Vidi Vici (or however the hell you spell it).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:01:04 No.8780832
    That would depend if the Romans were fighting a defensive or offensive war. The Romans would not win against the Mongols in an offensive war. They just wouldn't. Mediterranean people attacking the fucking Mongol steppes? No.

    Defensively, they may have a chance. And that is only a losing game for the Romans, since if the Mongols started losing, they'd just leave. And then continuously raze Roman settlements outside the capital city until the rigid social and political structure devours itself from within.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:01:44 No.8780845
    >>8780756
    >More advanced than people like 1,000 years later!
    >Height of the Empire: 2nd Century AD
    >Death of Genghis Khan: 1227AD

    Well, I think that's exactly what we're putting to question.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:02:18 No.8780851
    are you kidding me , OP?

    Mongolian Empire is made entirely of their engagement skill.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:02:38 No.8780859
    romans have superior strategizing though and a better trained military
    >> MaxwellLord'sSilverHammer !!FV9sfZATzpx 05/06/10(Thu)02:02:44 No.8780862
    Mongols assrape the romans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:03:17 No.8780870
    ADRIAN?
    anyway, romans. horse archers cant beat the turtle.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:04:10 No.8780879
    Anyone with an even rudimentary knowledge of history will say the Mongolians.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:04:45 No.8780892
    tetsudo pwns
    romans also knew what to do against cavalry its not like cavalry insta pwns them, they took out plenty of cavalry strong nations
    they even pwned elephants
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:06:35 No.8780920
    an infantry based army will not beat a mounted archer based army. both armies are best suited on wide open plains in order to be most effective, but cavalry is far more suited to open field warfare than infantry. this means that on even, open ground, where both armies would both be at their most effective state, the mongols would still have a huge advantage.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:08:15 No.8780944
    >>8780920
    you have to take account for military strategy though too
    the romans would know that fighting a cavalry heavy army in the open would be a disadvantage and would obviously plan things out better than just charging
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:11:23 No.8780987
    ITT: People who played Rome Total War
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:11:29 No.8780989
    Mongols were scared of thunder, so I vote Romans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:11:43 No.8780993
    >>8780920
    it would be at beast a stalemate for the Mongolians though, even on open ground. roman infantry was essentially pikemen. and as for cavalry archers, they can close those shields up so tight that nothing will get in.
    >> Buzzkill !bQXLaktCGc 05/06/10(Thu)02:12:42 No.8781011
    inb4 the contents of this thread are leaked to the Discovery or History channels and they make an entire hour long documentary about it
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:13:13 No.8781020
    >>8781011

    >inb4 DEADLIEST WARRIOR

    fixed
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:14:10 No.8781032
    >>8780993
    Ignoring the fact the the romans didn't really fight anyone besides barbarians, while the mongolians destroyed the professional armies of europe and the muslim world.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:14:42 No.8781041
    Mongols, please do not try to say otherwise

    Highly skilled archers and swift armored calvary trumps armored foot and light batteries
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:15:09 No.8781050
    This would be like asking who would win in a gang war, the mafia or the crips.
    Of course Rome would win.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:16:02 No.8781070
    Anyone who says Romans needs to go back to school.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:17:38 No.8781086
    >>8781050
    three Italians is equal to one black male, I jest you not
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:18:20 No.8781097
    Phalanx>Silly horse archery.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:18:37 No.8781103
    >>8781041
    pikeman and tight shield formations would like to have a word with you
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:19:33 No.8781115
    >>8781103
    >implying thats not what the poles did when they got their asses handed to them.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:19:36 No.8781116
    The Mongols. Hugely superior numbers, tactics, and technology. At the height of their power, the Mongolian Empire's vast legions are probably unstoppable versus any other army of comparable technology.

    Speaking of which, why hasn't there been a historical fiction movie along the lines of Gladiator yet based on the Mongols?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:04 No.8781122
    >>8781032

    So the Macedonians, Carthaginians, Persians, and Egyptians were just a bunch of bitches?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:20 No.8781123
    When Romans fought anyone but barbarians they usually got their taints handed to them. Hell, even the Germanic tribes were too much for them.
    Frequent Persian wars demonstrate Rome was unable to defeat their Eastern foes who were, incientally, usually large cavalry armies (Parthians, notably).

    Lest we aso forget the utter ruin inflicted upon Rome by the Huns and Visigoths under Attila and Alaric.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:20 No.8781124
    >>8781103
    Archers > Pikes
    Calvary > Infantry

    Also describe to me when romans used pikes in their prime
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:30 No.8781127
    I'm pretty sure the Mongols fielded more troops than the Romans ever did, by such a huge number as to make any discussion of tactics and equipment moot. I'll look this shit up and be right back.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:39 No.8781129
    at the height of the roman military i would say it would cause trouble for the mongols
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:20:46 No.8781133
    For those saying Romans, a little brush up.
    http://www.coldsiberia.org/monmight.htm
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:21:08 No.8781137
    Mongols.
    The romans were defeated by a few fucking elephants.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:22:31 No.8781158
    >>8781123
    a low point for the roman military
    i say we focus on the
    >height of their respective expansions, taking into account weapons, tactics and numbers
    Attila attacked a weakened roman empire
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:22:48 No.8781163
    Has no one thought of where this is taking place? The Romans, fighting in hilly terrain have a shot, on a open plain? not so much.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:22:50 No.8781165
    >>8781116
    There was, it just sucked.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416044/
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:24:53 No.8781191
    >>8781122
    They lost to the persians multiple times. They beat a declining egyption empire, the macedonians beat the romans several times. And carthage was just a little desert empire while the romans had double their population.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:25:24 No.8781198
    >>8780987
    Nah dude, I played Rome Total Realism.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:26:45 No.8781215
    Everyone seems to forget that Rome lost all the time. The second war against Carthage? The roman's lost for decades, hell even upwards of having a hundred thousand men die in a single engagement. The thing is, the Romans were too damn stubborn to realized they lost and just kept throwing men at the problem until the figured out how to exactly defeat their enemy. Rome at the height of their power would win just by the virtue of not knowing when to stop. Sure it would cost thousands and thousands of lives and take many many years but eventually they would figure shit out.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:27:07 No.8781220
    The precoursors to the Mongols, the Huns, were nearly defeated several times by the Romans even though the Romans were dealing with multitudes of other tribes. I think the Romans could hold their own but I don't think they could carry out a very successful campaign against the steppe itself.

    >>8781123
    >>8781032
    You are both retarded. Rome didn't blunder in to being the super power of the Mediterannean, they literally defeated every other major power in the known world. Even the Parthians got their comeuppance in the form of every major city being burned to the foundations.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:27:11 No.8781221
    >>8781165
    Fuck, gonna have to download and watch this shit.

    Fucking love the Mongols, favorite historical nation.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:27:20 No.8781223
    >>8781163
    the mongols were far greater masters of strategy than the romans EVER were. if this battle would take place anywhere, it would take place where and when the mongols wanted it to.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:28:32 No.8781237
    Protip:

    There is not enough grass to support large numbers of horses in the regions rome owned. They only had issues with cav. armies in terrian that was not good for thier form of combat.

    Also, the mongols got turned around in Hungry where the land was shitty for horses.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:28:50 No.8781239
    >>8781215
    This. The Mongols are light cavalry raiders. No attention span.

    The Romans never admit defeat, and will just keep plowing forward until they get it right.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:29:12 No.8781244
    >>8781223
    thy must be jokingeth
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:29:40 No.8781248
    >>8781165
    Isn't there supposed to be a sequel in the works called 'Khan' or something?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:29:57 No.8781253
    At the height of the Roman Empire, land-wise, over half the roman army was made up of germanic warriors who were basically drafted into the armies. They had poor training, poor moral, and were frequently disobey the orders of the clueless and corrupt roman generals.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:30:35 No.8781262
    >>8781223

    They weren't anymore strategic than Rommel running all ova N. Afr.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:31:15 No.8781269
    >>8781223
    The Mongols are good, but they can't turn hills into plains by their sheer force of will. If they wanted to deal any blows to the Romans they'd inevitably find themselves on difficult ground. Otherwise they'd just be dancing around doing nothing important in the field while the Romans burned their stupid little huts to the ground.

    Basically the reverse is true for the Romans however. Ultimately I think the Romans would drive the Mongols back to the steppes and then forget about them for another three to eight hundred years. That's how it normally went.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:31:24 No.8781275
    what movie is the top part of theat picture from?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:31:54 No.8781281
    I am an Italian and a History major.

    Sadly the truth is, the Mongols would run them over.

    The Stirrup is a simple technology, but not to be overlooked. It quite literally revolutionized war.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:32:16 No.8781287
    >>8781237

    They wiped out the Hungarians at Mohacs, I think, then went on to Poland,where they fucked the Poles, but turned back because Ogedai died at this point or something.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:33:28 No.8781303
    WHAT THE FUCK IS GENGIS KHAN'S REAL NAME? HOLY SHIT I'VE SEEN SO MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF HIS NAME, I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS TEMUJIN.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:35:26 No.8781329
    hmm which was a better movie
    gladiator or mongol
    romans win!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:36:17 No.8781339
    >>8780715
    FROM WHAT I CAN TELL FROM MOUNT & BLADE WARBAND THE HORSE ARCHERY IS FAR SUPERIOR TO GAIJIN BAKA SPEARS.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:36:25 No.8781340
    >>8781262
    ok, i seriously don't see how that has anything to do with what we are talking about.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:36:39 No.8781342
    >>8781329
    Gladiator shits all over Mongol. Both are atrociously inaccurate though.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:37:06 No.8781349
    >>8781127

    Okay, how about this: the Romans sent three legions to their deaths in the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD. They were about 30,000 men.

    The Mongols invaded Europe with three tumen, each 10,000 men, in 1241, ravaged Hungary and Poland, and prepared to conquer Western Europe until they received word that Ogedei Khan had died and their leaders had to return to Mongolia to participate in electing his replacement.

    Let's say that these two forces met each other.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:37:07 No.8781350
    HERP DERP ROMANS ARE TEH BEST THEY CAN LIKE FORM TURTLES AND INVENTED STRATEGY... THEY COULD BEAT A BUNCH OF MONGOLOIDS ANY DAY.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:38:52 No.8781366
    >>8781349
    dude the roman general who led that was a horrendous fuck up O_O
    dont even compare those lol
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:39:44 No.8781378
    >>8781349

    Where and when? Though, the roman general leading those legions was basically a retard so they are already off to a bad start.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:41:12 No.8781398
    >>8781349

    I think Subutai, who was possibly the greatest general in history, and happened to actually command these Mongol units, should command the Mongol side.

    Who was Rome's greatest military commander? Scipio Africanus? Julius Caesar? Certainly not the guy who actually led the Teutoburg Forest legions.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:41:29 No.8781403
    i don't know much about roman generals, but Julius Caesar is ranked pretty highly among them, correct?

    do you really think that asshat could defeat Ghengis Khan?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:44:47 No.8781449
    >>8781403
    Have you read Caesar's Gallic Wars or Civil Wars? Just kidding, obvious you haven't. If even half of what he says happened, actually happened, the Mongols wouldn't stand a chance.

    Seriously, reading about the high water marks of Roman military strategy they pull the craziest shit out of their ass and end up with absurd victories. That's pretty much the same for most histories of military strategy, but the Romans really stand out for some incredible feats of What-the-Fucking-Shittery.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:46:27 No.8781470
    Romans were the epitome of military strategy
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:47:42 No.8781481
    >>8781366

    VARRUS! VARRUS! GIVE ME BACK MY LEGIONS!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:49:13 No.8781502
    >>8781449

    i have read caesar's gallic wars. i have the book where the left page is english, and the right page is in latin. he was a good strategist, no doubt, but he still ain't shit compared to the great khan. i think you are just biased towards the europeans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:49:59 No.8781509
    >>8781269

    I think you're placing far too much value on the terrain. It works both ways - hilly terrain would also hinder the Roman armies' troops, slowing them down and preventing them from launching mobile attacks.

    In fact, the Mongols could simply retreat and move repeatedly while shooting down the Romans with their more powerful recurved longbows and more advanced siege weaponry. Remember, the Mongols were the ancient master of siege tactics on the field.

    Plus, you're not taking into account how skilled the Mongols were in close combat - they were masters of close-range dagger and sword. The Romans, exhausted after hours of march on uneven terrain while being weighted down by their heavy iron armor, would be totally outmatched by the nimble and fresh Mongols.

    Plus, while the Romans were heavily disciplined and powerful within their formation tactics, the Mongols thrived on improvisation and battlefield tactics. The Romans are like a bear - powerful, but really only one organized foe, while the Mongols would be like a pack of wolves, each individual wolf highly intelligent and able to adapt. In sufficient numbers, which the Mongols most definitely had at their peak, they would overwhelm the Romans easily.

    And when it came time for the city battles... Well, no one did it better than the Mongols. The Roman cities would simply be completely overrun, this isn't even a contest.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:50:09 No.8781513
    How does Roman fighting compare with the Mongolian non-stop skirmishing?

    Romans on defense all the time unless Mongolian commanders want others. They would not be cut down but chipped away at
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:50:43 No.8781521
    Rome could defend their empire by virtue of being so far away from the heart of the Mongolian Empire, general Roman stubbornness and commitment to craziness, and their ability to adapt to tactical realities (something they forgot how to do towards the end). It would be hard but the Romans would probably come out on top. Now if the Romans tried to fight the Mongolians on their own turf? The Romans would be instantly butchered. So advantage Mongols I suppose.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:51:21 No.8781528
    anyone who doesnt say mongols is cripplingly retarded or scholarly inept. this is indisputable. the composite recurve bow annihilated heavily armored knights with ease, romans were more equivalent to moderately armored shock troopers and would get torn apart by arrows, testudo would not help them as much in this situation when the bows firing the arrows could overpower their formation.

    go back to school.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:56:22 No.8781589
    >>8781528

    And the Romans would just accept this and not try to find a way to counter their new foe? Not at the height of their power they wouldn't.

    The Mongol's greatest weapon was their bows or the siege weapons. It was fear. They conquered so much with so little because so many people gave in because they were, and rightfully so, completely terrified by them. Roman, at its peak was too arrogant and too stupid to give in to the Mongols. Ingenuity and stubbornness win the day.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:57:00 No.8781598
    Mongolians win this shit hard.
    I say this and I fucking LOVE Rome.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:57:15 No.8781600
    >>8781513

    They wouldn't much care. The Romans were used to that sort of thing.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)02:57:45 No.8781606
    >>8781449
    Caesar was a genius, but come on he was more a politician than a military master.

    The Mongolian generals lived their entire lives at war. In this hypothetical scenario we're talking about, it wouldn't just be, say, Julius Caesar, versus Genghis Khan or something.

    It would be Julius Caesar versus Genghis Khan and all of his generals. As I recall, in his entire reign, Genghis Khan never released all of his "dogs of war" at once - usually only one or two, typically Subutai (the greatest military commander of all time), was enough to totally defeat whatever enemy they were fighting at the time. If Genghis Khan unleashed all of his generals and his entire army at once, I don't think any enemy would stand a chance.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:00:30 No.8781639
    >A commonly used tactic was the use of what was called the "kharash". During a siege the Mongols would gather a crowd of local residents or soldiers surrendered from previous battles, and would drive them forward in sieges and battles. These "alive boards" or "human shields" would often take the brunt of enemy arrows and crossbow bolts, thus leaving the Mongol warriors safer. The kharash were also often forced ahead to breach walls.

    I think Mongol is a pretty cool guy, he kills everyone and doesn't afraid of anything.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:00:51 No.8781643
    >>8781509I think you're placing far too much value on the terrain. It works both ways - hilly terrain would also hinder the Roman armies' troops, slowing them down and preventing them from launching mobile attacks.

    I disagree completely. Difficult terrain was a Roman specialty, and was the reason they developed flexible legions out of their original hoplite armies. Take a closer look at the Roman conquest of Greece and you'll see that they basically chose to meet on rough terrain where their army adapted better than the rigid Greek formations. I think they'd essentially try the same tactic with the Mongols; after all, they certainly forced the Huns to meet them on unfriendly terrain, and triumphed many times.

    >In fact, the Mongols could simply retreat and move repeatedly while shooting down the Romans with their more powerful recurved longbows and more advanced siege weaponry.

    The Romans could easily match the Mongols in siege weaponry. Most siege weapons in Europe were based off Roman design and China never really pulled ahead of Rome in that respect, in my opinion.

    >Remember, the Mongols were the ancient master of siege tactics on the field.

    The Mongols didn't have a clue about siege weaponry, they enlisted Chinese to do that. Nearly all siege technology was invented by the Greco-Romans or Chinese, depending on which side of the silk road you lived on.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:01:26 No.8781650
    >>8781589
    What the fuck are you talking about? That's like saying the nazi's could have won WW2 in 1944 because "THEY'RE STUBBORN AND INNOVATIVE!" Stubborness will lead to irrationality, much like stalingrad for the germans. Innovation does not mean victory, again, the V2 rocket didn't do shit for the germans. Please educate yourself before posting.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:01:42 No.8781652
    >>8781589

    how would they counter them with the technology of ~70 AD? 1000 years of advances in warfare technology are not made in a day. fortresses are bypassed, cities are besieged and demolished etc. parthians had great success whittling down Roman troops by keeping their quivers full and pelting them down, and charging them if they were in Testudo (tougher to fend of melee attacks in that formation). Mongols would be able to do all that and more.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:03:52 No.8781676
    >>8781643 Continued:


    >Plus, [...] would be totally outmatched by the nimble and fresh Mongols.

    >Plus, [...] which the Mongols most definitely had at their peak, they would overwhelm the Romans easily.

    I don't want to be a dick but you're just making shit up now.

    The fact is that no one would win an extended campaign. If you want a reason for the fall of the Western Roman Empire, blame the politicians; in reality the last great Roman general Flavius Aetius was more than a match for Attila or any other barbarian warlord and it was his being removed from command by fearful senators that led to the Roman's defeat in the field.

    The individual battles would hinge on the ability of the respective commanders to make the battle happen where they wanted to. I think the armies would actually dance around each other at first, with the Romans unable to catch the Mongols in the field but the Mongols unable to make a direct attack against the Romans. Ultimately either the Mongols would move to threaten an important Roman settlement or the Romans would close on the Mongol baggage train and the battle would be forced. I'd give a fight on open plains to the Mongols, but hilly or forested country (i.e. most of Europe) to the Romans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:04:56 No.8781685
    >And the Romans would just accept this and not try to find a way to counter their new foe?

    What you thought everybody else accepted their treatment by the mongols and didn't try to find ways to counter the mongols?

    Protip: The Mongols weren't decisively defeated until the invention of the handcannon.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:05:08 No.8781686
    >>8781650

    >Implying that the WWII German = Ancient Rome
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:06:21 No.8781700
    >>8781685

    A fuckton of them just lay down and took it. A look of them were also too close to Mongolia as well.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:06:59 No.8781705
         File1273129619.jpg-(23 KB, 624x352, 1240004909757.jpg)
    23 KB
    >>8781700

    >>implying hungarians laid down and took it
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:07:28 No.8781716
    Romans would win because they are white.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:08:05 No.8781725
    >Their reputation for terror was so great, there were tales of lone Mongol soldiers riding into villages and killing the inhabitants one by one without resistance, as it was known that to resist was to bring forth the whole of the Mongol army.

    >The Mongols carefully scouted out and spied on their enemies in advance of any invasion. Prior to the invasion of Europe, Batu and Subutai sent spies for almost ten years into the heart of Europe, making maps of the old Roman roads, establishing trade routes, and determining the level of ability of each principality to resist invasion. They made well-educated guesses as to the willingness of each principality to aid the others, and their ability to resist alone or together.
    Also, when invading an area, the Mongols would do all that was necessary to completely conquer the town or cities. Some tactics involved diverting rivers from the city/town, closing supplies to the city and waiting for its inhabitants to surrender, gathering civilians from the nearby areas to fill the front line for the city/town attack before scaling the wall, and pillaging the surrounding area and killing some of the people, then letting some survivors flee to the main city to report their losses to the main populace to weaken resistance, simultaneously draining the resources of the city with the sudden influx of refugees.

    Shit, instead of comparing them to ancient Rome, we should be putting these crazy motherfuckers up against Renaissance-era armies at least.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:08:10 No.8781727
    >>8781528the composite recurve bow annihilated heavily armored knights with ease

    Heavy knight armor or even medium Roman armor can easily stop arrows. How do I know this? I'm actually an archer, and I've played around with this before for the benefit of historical societies (Though I myself generally shoot modern bows for competition). As far as I can tell archery was more about demoralization, denial of area, and to kill the lightly armored peasants that made up the majority of any army, like pawns on a chessboard. Even the best knights are ineffective without support from these peasant infantry. Another thing to consider is that cavalry archers on their own won't win a battle, you need to follow up with heavy cavalry. The Mongols employed this strategy to great effect, but for some reason aren't famous for their talented lancers who, incidentally, were functionally the same as knights.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:09:02 No.8781733
    >>8781686
    >Implying that WW2 Germany wasn't more stubborn and innovative than ancient rome.

    The romans, like the nazis could not fucking win no matter what they did, they were/would be severely outmatched. It doesn't matter how "Stubborn" you are when your soliders are getting mowed down and have no way to return fire.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:11:18 No.8781757
    >>8781727

    How is archery, as a hobby? Seems like a really cool skill to have. I've gotten to mess around with bows built for kids back when I was younger and I always had a lot of fun.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:11:53 No.8781764
    >>8781727
    >I HAPPEN TO BE AN EXPERT ON THIS EXACT SUBJECT AND HAVE INFACT ENGAGED IN YOUR HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO CAUSE I FELT LIKE IT.

    No bro. That shit ain't flying.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:13:17 No.8781781
    The Romans, with their half-price wonders and more numerous Great People, would likely build the United Nations and win a Cultural victory before the Mongols could finish them off militarily.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:13:54 No.8781786
    this thread is just fanboys
    no one seems to know accurate historical facts on both sides its either or
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:14:02 No.8781789
    >>8781606Caesar was a genius, but come on he was more a politician than a military master.

    Julius Caesar was a genius on the field and in the forum. Vercingetorix, Pompey the Great, and Caesar were the three great military minds of their time. Caesar defeated Vercingetorix and Pompey quite soundly, and it wasn't by luck.

    >The Mongolian generals lived their entire lives at war. In this hypothetical scenario we're talking about, it wouldn't just be, say, Julius Caesar, versus Genghis Khan or something.

    The Romans also had professional armies at the height of their power. I don't see your point here.

    >It would be Julius Caesar versus Genghis Khan and all of his generals. As I recall, in his entire reign, Genghis Khan never released all of his "dogs of war" at once - usually only one or two, typically Subutai (the greatest military commander of all time), was enough to totally defeat whatever enemy they were fighting at the time. If Genghis Khan unleashed all of his generals and his entire army at once, I don't think any enemy would stand a chance.

    Caesar had supremely talented commanders as well. I don't see your point here either. Do you really think any single man leads armies to victory? Alexander had talented subordinates. Scipio had talented subordinates. Hitler and Fidel Castro and Patton and Sun Tzu and Oda Nobunaga and Attila the Hun and Aleric the Goth and Mao Tse Tung and MacArthur had talented subordinates. No one ever wins a battle on their own.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:14:40 No.8781802
    >>8781733

    You have it the other way around though. The Mongolians are the WW2 Germans, the mobile technologically advanced army with smaller numbers. The Romans are the late war Soviets, a larger army fighting on their home turf that have adapted to the invaders and drive them back. This is of course in the event of a Mongolian invasion of Rome. A Roman invasion of Mongolia would be destroyed by the Mongolians quickly.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:15:09 No.8781808
    Didn't mongols try to invade Japan, and got their shit wrecked.

    *mostly by bad weather obviously* but still. shit got fucking wrecked.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:15:50 No.8781814
    >>8781643
    The mongols used a crude torpedo. They could throw something together if the situation called for it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:17:00 No.8781831
    >>8781764

    Hey, stranger things have happened. I'll give people the benefit of the doubt online because no one accepts my credentials either (economics MA, now working on PhD, former Berkeley student, substitute teacher, and financial advisor/insurance agent/stockbroker...oh and I work at Gamestop lol).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:17:10 No.8781836
    >>8781808

    they also got thrashed several times by the mamluks, but in a hypothetical battle situation the far more advanced mongols would really trounce the Romans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:17:26 No.8781839
    >>8781606
    Also, it's important to note that the Mongols almost never fought a single war by itself - during their invasion of western Europe, for instance, the Mongols were also simultaneously invading China, Korea, India, and central and eastern Europe. It was mostly Subutai himself that directed the western Europe campaigns, and he had no problems making Poland and Hungary his bitch.

    The Mongols were like a fucking plague that spread in every direction totally raping anything that moved. If all of those armies and generals were collected and concentrated onto a singular enemy, that enemy would be fucked.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:18:32 No.8781860
    Mongolians were a hoard of savages, with no developed center of intellectuals or a strong economy. They only ever managed to defeat weak agrarian people, and would be humiliated by the more civilized and advanced Romans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:18:33 No.8781861
    Mongols made mincemeat out of European infantry 1000 years after the Romans, don't see why they couldn't adjust and still wreck the Romans shit.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:18:46 No.8781864
    >>8781789
    Medieval Europe > Ancient Rome

    The Muslim world > Medieval Europe.

    The Mongols > The Muslim world AND Medieval Europe.

    To say that the romans could have beaten the mongolians is utter lunacy. The romans got their shit kicked around all the time and relied on germanic mercenaries and conscripts to simply defend their borders, let alone project any military might.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:20:27 No.8781876
    >>8781864

    >Medieval Europe > Ancient Rome

    Full retard. Never go full retard.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:20:57 No.8781880
    Considering how the Romans faired against the Parthians, Im gonna say the Mongols.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:21:00 No.8781881
    >>8781685
    Actually, it was a combination of societal factors that led to the downfall of the Mongols. The same is true for the rise of the Mongols. I don't think Genghis would have succeeded against an equally talented and unified Chinese leader, they probably would have stalemated.

    >>8781725
    The Romans do some of this stuff too. I really do have to recommend Caesar's Gallic and Civil Wars again. There's several battles he wins on account of building bridges or diverting or even completely erasing rivers. It's really interesting stuff.

    >Shit, instead of comparing them to ancient Rome, we should be putting these crazy motherfuckers up against Renaissance-era armies at least.

    This is a good point you raise, and I agree - the Mongols definitately had an edge in technology. I've been arguing from the standpoint of equal technology and have been pretty much basing my arguments off of the Roman's encounters with the Huns. The Mongols, after taking civilized China, definitely had an advantage in metallurgy and possibly engineering, but what do you expect with an extra 1,000 years?

    >>8781757
    It's fun, but it's a huge timesink if you want to be any good at it, and the people who do it tend to be very, uh, "traditional". I had to distance myself from. I don't want to derail this thread but basically the problem was: I'm gay, and being around the hyperconservative people that tend to do archery was like being a black dude in a KKK rally.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:21:24 No.8781885
    >>8781861
    because romans were still more advanced
    fucking awnings man, fucking sewer systems and aquaducts and shit
    WATER HEATERS DUDE
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:23:04 No.8781905
    >>8781881

    All right, how about if Rome never fell and they had 1,000 years to tech up and prepare for the Mongols to arrive?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:23:22 No.8781912
    >>8781764
    It may seem a little deus ex machina, but it's the truth. We fired the heaviest bows we could find against plate armor and it barely made a scratch. Even chain mail can deflect arrows at anything but nearly point-blank range.

    However, the majority of any medival army wouldn't be wearing this. Even the Romans had huge forces of lightly armored auxiliaries that would be decimated by Mongol arrows even if the cohorts themselves were relatively safe.

    >>8781781
    I love you. No homo.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:23:54 No.8781916
    >>8781885

    in 1000 years, military technology was the only shit that really kept advancing. 1000 years of difference was serious.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:24:10 No.8781918
    >>8781885
    I've lost count of how many battles have been won by water heaters.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:25:26 No.8781933
    PROTIP: THE ROMAN ARMIES MAINLY CONSISTED OF MEN DRAFTED FROM CONQUERED TERRITORIES WITH LITTLE OR NO EXPERIENCE.

    PROTIP: MONGOLIANS LEARNED TO RIDE A HORSE AND SHOOT A BOW BEFORE THEY WERE 10 YEARS OLD.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:25:36 No.8781934
    >>8781918
    i KNOW ITS SOME SERIOUS SHIT
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:26:54 No.8781946
    >>8781727
    I was always fascinated by the fact that the Roman empire with all of it's military ingenuity never relied on archery. As far as your statement about armor stopping arrows goes, I call BS. Arrows easily penetrate plate armors, and there were arrows with really long tips designed to "slip past" chain mail armors links.

    Mongol hordes would have a huge advantage in fact that their horses fed on grass unlike roman horses which fed on grain. Mongols also had archer cavalry (the type of unit proven to be deadly centuries later during crussades) which would give them advantage in breaking the well organized Roman ranks.
    The war would definitely become war of attrition and the Mongolians would have won with their high mobility and the ability to easily stop the Roman supply lines.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:27:21 No.8781949
    >>8781839
    Sure, but the Romans conducted simultaneous takeovers of shit as well. Caesar's real struggle was against Crassus, who subjugated much of the Middle East, and Pompey, who subjugated much of Africa. Most of Rome's expansion happened at the same time.

    >>8781860
    This just isn't true. Ghengis adopted a written language and made extensive use of written messages and advanced political theory to govern the Mongol empire, as did successive Khans. The Mongols weren't so successful by accident.

    By the way, I hope it's clear that I'm not blindly supporting Rome. I love both the Romans and the Mongols, and I don't think either side could triumph the other indefinately. Nearly all of pre-modern history is a balancing act between the Nomadic and Sedentary civilizations; it really is circumstance that would decide the winner,
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:27:40 No.8781950
    Asterix and Obelix > Romans

    If two men can beat the whole of Rome then I think the Mongols could do this rather easily.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:29:13 No.8781958
    >>8781808
    Having been sunk by typhoons clearly proves that mongolian warriors were weak and pansies. Yeah, you're absolutely right
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:31:02 No.8781979
    >>8781705
    >>8781705
    >>8781705
    >>8781705
    >>8781705


    The Magyar are fighters.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:31:46 No.8781985
    >>8781946

    Despite what you may think, Archery was never more than a sideshow to European combat. Archers were used to screen movement and pin enemies and that was about it. Hell, even the english longbowmen weren't as effective against heavily armored men as you would think (their greatest victory was more due to mud and the execution of prisoners than the longbow).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:33:56 No.8782008
    ITT: butthurt Chinks try to make up for their embarrassing history by glorifying a bunch of barbarians.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:35:14 No.8782019
    >>8782008

    a bunch of barbarians who crafted the largest empire the world has witnessed?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:36:28 No.8782032
    Nerf Mongols, they're OP.

    The Japanese need some serious buffing, here's my new stat block for the katana... (insert copypasta here)
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:38:00 No.8782052
    >>8782019
    Nope, that would be the British Empire. Try harder, you slant eyed savage.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:38:26 No.8782055
         File1273131506.jpg-(433 KB, 1609x882, typhoon.jpg)
    433 KB
    >>8781958
    How recently was this?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:38:32 No.8782056
    >>8781864
    No, the Roman military post-Marius was almost entirely professional soldiers. Even the auxiliaries were full time professionals. If the Romans actually used mercanaries as much as you suggest they might have had the manpower to secure their borders in the 5th century CE.

    >>8781880
    Everyone remembers The Rape of Crassus, but no one seems to recall that the Romans retaliated by razing the entire Parthian empire.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:39:08 No.8782062
    >>8781946I was always fascinated by the fact that the Roman empire with all of it's military ingenuity never relied on archery.

    Oh yes they did, but they never relied on home-grown Italian archers. The basic structure of the Roman military was that Italian recruits went in to the legions and foreigners of Roman provinces filled out the other roles as auxiliaries, which could be archers or cavalry or any number of specialized soldiers. This is an oversimplification though, and if you really study the post-Marian military structure it makes a lot of sense, I'm not going into that though, because I intend to get to sleep sometime tonight.

    >As far as your statement about armor stopping arrows goes, I call BS. Arrows easily penetrate plate armors, and there were arrows with really long tips designed to "slip past" chain mail armors links.

    I don't know where this got started, but every study I've seen by any historical society has proven it false. Bodkin arrows and powerful bows can tear through leather and certain armors that were basically obsolete for the purposes of this discussion, but plate is nearly impegnetrable and chain is at anything distance an archer wouldn't be fleeing from. Look into the ARMA, and youtube them. I've seen guys hack at chainmail for hours with bodkin arrows and heavy battle axes and the armor itself is fine.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)03:39:51 No.8782071
    >>8782062 I'm going to namefag cause it's hard to keep up with you guys.
    >Mongol hordes would have a huge advantage in fact that their horses fed on grass unlike roman horses which fed on grain. Mongols also had archer cavalry (the type of unit proven to be deadly centuries later during crussades) which would give them advantage in breaking the well organized Roman ranks.

    Cavalry archers on their own don't win battles. The Mongols actually triumphed through combined arms strategy and possessed cavalry that were basically equivalent to knights. The Romans were also known to employ cavalry archers, especially against the Scythian, Armenian, and Pre-Turkic tribes that themselves fought the Romans with cavalry archery. I think the Romans could handle it.
    >> Disciple of Justice !E5g5GmbE/U 05/06/10(Thu)03:41:53 No.8782094
    For all of you who are saying the Romans had more advanced military tactics, you're fucking forgetting that all modern militaries follow Genghis Khan's general military organization. The man was a fucking genius and one of the most important people to ever be born.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:42:54 No.8782102
    >>8781985
    >Despite what you may think, Archery was never more than a sideshow to European combat. Archers were used to screen movement and pin enemies and that was about it.
    Never said that archery was all that big in european military. Then again, mongolians aren't exactly european and advanced military technology did exist outside of europe and so did advanced military tactics. So, what i was trying to say is that the mongolians didn't use european military tactics or technology and wouldn't use them in this hypotethical war

    >Hell, even the english longbowmen weren't as effective against heavily armored men as you would think (their greatest victory was more due to mud and the execution of prisoners than the longbow).
    The english did effectively use peasant archers to beat the shit out of french knights in one of their many wars (cant remember which battle or which war it exactly was). The fact that archery wasn't a decisive factor in many battles doesn't mean that it is useless or that an arrow from a bow cant easily penetrate medieval armor which was more advanced than the roman ones. Again, why would the mongolians use european tactics and technology in this hypotethical war?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:44:02 No.8782117
    >>8782094

    Most modern militaries follow French and Prussian models, skipper.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:44:10 No.8782119
    >>8781165

    Fuck you man, that didn't suck at all.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:46:59 No.8782156
    not to change the subject, but this is exactly why we need a /hist/ board
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:48:38 No.8782164
    >>8782094
    No they don't. He was nothing more than the leader of a pillaging hoard of moronic brutes.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)03:48:59 No.8782167
    >>8782094
    Nah. The modern system of platoons and batallions does resemble tumens somewhat, but modern warfare is so vastly different from pre-modern warfare that its doctrine is almost wholly original.

    >>8782102Again, why would the mongolians use european tactics and technology in this hypotethical war?

    It's not a question of tactics. A bow cannot propel an arrow with enough force to reliably piece plate armor. That's why muskets were such a big fucking deal and why body armor changed completely with the introduction of gunpowder.

    Incidentally the armor worn by our soldiers in Iraq would be almost completely ineffective against Medieval weapons. Thank god for missiles.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:50:22 No.8782185
    >>8782102

    The originally question was why wasn't Roman archery as developed or important as it could be. The answer was basically, it didn't have to be.

    As for the English at Agincourt the victory is credited to the longbow men. Truthfully, they did tear apart the unarmored Italian mercenaries. However, the french knights charged the English across a muddy field and stalled against the English lines. Bogged down in the mud, many french knights were taken prisoner. When King Henry feared he would not carry the day he ordered the execution of the knights and lords taken prisoner. His own knights and lords didn't want to do this, so it was left to the longbowmen to carryout the executions.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:54:45 No.8782235
    >>8782164

    >hoard

    The Mongols were a horde. Scrooge McDuck had a hoard.

    One would think this would have stopped being an issue what with everyone in Western society having played and quit WoW at this point...
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:57:25 No.8782267
    >>8782185
    It was because word recieve was that the french forces flanked and killed the squires when they should have held them as prisoners. It was a combination of revenge and strategic thinking in the heat of battle
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:57:43 No.8782273
    >>8782167
    >A bow cannot propel an arrow with enough force to reliably piece plate armor.
    Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit proven wrong again and again. BTW romans didn't have medieval european plate mail armor.

    >>8782185
    I completely agreed with you that archery wasn't big in european military theatre. How does that pertain to the hypotethical war between roman empire and the mongolian empire is beyond me. As I already asked, why would mongolians use medieval european militayr tactics when they had horse archers which were proven to be a devastating unit. Think of it as having modern artillery combined with star trek teleportation technology. That's how effective they were.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)03:59:38 No.8782298
    >>8782273

    >I was always fascinated by the fact that the Roman empire with all of it's military ingenuity never relied on archery.

    Was what I was responding to.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:05:43 No.8782354
    >>8782235
    scrooge mcduck doesn't need a horde, he has donald.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:07:07 No.8782366
    TESTUUDOOOOOOOOO
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:08:12 No.8782382
    >>8782167
    >Modern armor ineffective against medieval weapons

    Well, that's not entirely true. Kevlar alone can be cut through, but it is still tough. It certainly won't stop arrows or good spear thrusts, though. more importantly, modern military armor takes the form of 'plate carriers' which hold solid armor that would be more than capable of stopping a bow or poleaxe.

    >>8782273
    You're both kind of right and both kind of wrong. A notable difference can be observed between the high quality armor (seen below) and cheaper, historically later, "munitions" (read: cheap gear for dirty peasants) armor.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:08:27 No.8782386
    >>8782185
    >italian mercenaries at agincourt
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:10:35 No.8782404
    >>8782382
    >continuing to address that archery point
    As it pertains to the thread, however, shit would be brutal. Roman armor was significantly more primitive than hardened steel plate, and a mongol bow would have no problem with it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:11:34 No.8782419
    >>8782386

    Yup, Genovese mercenaries.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:12:02 No.8782427
    Mongols. The Mongols were skilled horse archers.

    Romans struggled with the Parthians, who were also skilled horse archers.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:13:38 No.8782445
    >>8782419
    dont think so.

    salamiblox.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:13:53 No.8782453
    >>8782185

    Shit, I always thought that it was longbows that killed charging French knights at Agincourt. Apparently not, the French just had to walk three hundred yards through knee-deep mud in full plate armor with the visors down to avoid the tens of thousands of arrows the English were shooting at them, until they could barely lift their weapons, and arrived to face large numbers of unencumbered longbowmen with hatchets and daggers. Who then shoved them into the mud and drowned or stabbed them. For three straight hours.

    Fuck, Agincourt was way more brutal than I ever thought. Reminds me of Woodstock '99 but even worse.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:17:40 No.8782486
    >>8780715
    The Roman army had trouble conquering mobs of Barbarians in France, Germany and England.

    The Mongolians destroyed every army / city it encountered WITHOUT losing significant troops, while recruiting more into their army.

    They conquered the Middle East at it's height (Afghanistan to Iraq), Russia and China.

    The Mongols only stopped at Russia because Western Europe was dirt ass poor, and there wasn't anything worth plundering.

    They couldn't take India because India is full of Jungle, so their calvary can't graze.

    They couldn't take Japan because the Japs built walls on their coast that kept the Mongols from landing, and they were saved by a lucky hurricane.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:19:00 No.8782498
    >>8782445

    >The French army was mainly a mounted army relying on the mounted knight and his awesome shock power to overcome enemies. The French did not totally disdain the use of missile infantry employing Genoese bowmen on occasion as mercenaries; they were even present at Crecy and Agincourt.[7]

    >[7]. Seward, Desmond. The Hundred Years War. Pp.55-56.

    http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/medieval/articles/hundredyearswar.aspx#
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:19:49 No.8782504
    >>8782273Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit proven wrong again and again.

    You can't just call something bullshit, you gotta prove it. For what it's worth this test is one of the more favorable ones for the archer that I've seen and even then they couldn't manage more than a wound at 20m.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRXwk4Kdbic

    >BTW romans didn't have medieval european plate mail armor.

    Lorica segmentata is nearly as good, and they had the same riveted chain that can easily stop an arrow.

    >As I already asked, why would mongolians use medieval european militayr tactics when they had horse archers which were proven to be a devastating unit. Think of it as having modern artillery combined with star trek teleportation technology. That's how effective they were.

    Actually cavalry archers were regularly defeated. Alexander the Great bested them. The Chinese bested them. Even the Romans bested them, first against the Parthians, Turks, and Armenians and then again against the Huns. The Huns were nearly decisively defeated by Flavius Aetius. So much for cavalry archers.

    >>8782427
    The Romans levelled the entire Parthian empire. This is the third or fourth time I've said this. Read the goddamn thread.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:22:18 No.8782526
    If the Mongolian Empire and the Roman Empire were so fucking great why are they both just memories?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:23:56 No.8782544
    >>8782504

    There is a story about European armored knights and their infantry meeting the Mongols outside the city.

    The Mongols feigned a retreat to break their line.

    Then they proceeded to pick off their soldiers with their archers.

    Mongol bows had a longer range, and higher mobility.

    The armored mobility tried to run but their armor weighed them down and they were all chased down and killed.


    Even if plate armor is effective at protecting the knight from arrows, it's not effective at stopping arrows from piercing the FUCKING HORSE.

    Not to mention armored calvary is slow and can never catch up to Mongolian mounted archers.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:24:06 No.8782546
    >>8782486The Roman army had trouble conquering mobs of Barbarians in France, Germany and England.

    No, actually they conquered them quite handily.

    >The Mongolians destroyed every army / city it encountered WITHOUT losing significant troops, while recruiting more into their army.

    The Mongols had several major defeats. Look into the Mongol invasion of Egypt.

    >They conquered the Middle East at it's height (Afghanistan to Iraq),

    It was post-zenith, actually.

    >Russia and China.

    A backwater and a civilization in a rut.

    >The Mongols only stopped at Russia because Western Europe was dirt ass poor, and there wasn't anything worth plundering.

    No, they stopped at Europe because of several successive deaths in the royal family and because they suffered a string of defeats at the hands of determined Hungarian defenders.

    >They couldn't take India because India is full of Jungle, so their calvary can't graze.

    They did take India. c.f. the Mughals.

    >They couldn't take Japan because the Japs built walls on their coast that kept the Mongols from landing, and they were saved by a lucky hurricane.

    You heard the story once and are recalling it from memory.

    I actually like the Mongols, but you're pulling all of this shit out of your ass.
    >> Sins !1hoJZZC0gE 05/06/10(Thu)04:24:13 No.8782549
    Romans were heavy infantry experts. The mongols were the masters of quick strike Calvary offensives.

    In an open battle, the Romans would more than likely lose to the mongols. In Siege warefare, the Romans would more than likely be able to hold out against a Mongol siege.

    When Crassus went against the Parthians the Parthian calvary destroyed the Roman infantry after prolonged fighting.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:24:17 No.8782550
    >>8782526
    Empires expand beyond their capabilities and stagnate- always. It will always happen no matter what, it is impossible to control so much.

    Even with modern technology it is obvious this will eventually happen to China and America.

    It already happened to: France, Germany, and Russia, within the past 200 years.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:24:22 No.8782552
    In the woods Roman, in a field mongolian.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:24:33 No.8782553
    >>8782404

    Apparently you know nothing of armor. The hauberk and the lorica segementata were both excellent armors. The hauberk was used not only by Roman legionaries but also by medieval knights.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:26:21 No.8782568
    >>8782504
    You keep thinking of archers as modern day soldiers with assault rifles. I keep talking about archers as artillery which cannot be tested the way you want it to be and the way they tested in that clip. They fired fucking horizontal shots and didn't test the effectivnes of arrows raining from the sky. A hail of arrows always was and always will be terrifyingly effective against any personal armor.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:26:39 No.8782571
    Something we need to remember is that through the use of replacing their farmers entirely with slaves. This caused the roman armies post 80AD to become utter shit. As the upper class entering the military was most often incredibly limp-wristed in comparison to their forebearers. By then the decay of the roman empire was showing itself in the fact that military units tended to be entirely loyal to their specific general and the members of the council who that general favored. It was nigh impossible to organize more than a single garrison at a time.

    This is why only 20,000 germans barbarians were able to sack motherfucking Rome. Did we forget about that in this thread?
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:27:17 No.8782576
    >>8782404
    The Romans had steel. The only issue I see would be their unarmored legs and face, both of which are mitigated somewhat by those gigantic shields.

    This is also the third or fourth time I've said this, but it would really come down to happenstance. They would stalemate until something sigificant occured to destabilize one side.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:28:06 No.8782581
    Obviously the Roman Empire. (If we're talking Augustus era)
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:28:16 No.8782583
    >>8782568
    You're making shit up and I'm posting the results of actual experiments. What does that tell you? Do you think your argument would fly anywhere but 4chan?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:29:45 No.8782591
    >>8782571
    The roman army was some 180,000 men strong when that incident occurred as well.

    At their precise an optimum height the romans could give the Mongols a run, but I see a huge disparity in this thread of people believing the mongols were barbarians.

    They had revolutionized warfare in ways the romans had not, and the mongols had the 2nd best general in the history of the planet on their side, 2nd only to Sun Tzu himself. So that makes the strategy argument moot as well.

    I love the Romans very much, but they would be obliterated by mongols.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:29:55 No.8782592
    >>8782571
    The Mongols were ultimately defeated by homebrewed revolutionaries leading armies of militia. They siezed an opportunity presented by a weak Mongolian state.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:30:44 No.8782594
    >>8782526

    They were both destroyed by the iron laws of economics. I wrote a paper on this for a grad macro class, actually.

    The Romans attempted to simultaneously debase their currency and fix a variety of prices. This essentially led to their cities becoming depopulated (due to selling grain at its true market value effectively being banned, think if Uncle Sam banned food and you had to go to the countryside to find something to eat) and easily conquered by any old barbarian horde that came wandering along. Meanwhile the Roman coinage became almost entirely worthless base metal - pre-paper currency hyperinflation.

    The Mongols in China were the first people to use paper fiat currency. It destroyed them, again, with hyperinflation. They were the shortest-lived dynasty in Chinese history (although they survived longer than the US dollar has so far without gold backing).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:32:16 No.8782603
    >>8782583
    Watch the clip again. Only horizontal shots are fired from a pneumatic shooter. Not really a test of what i'm referring to. Is it? I stated that in my previous post but you chose to ignore it. Seems to me that YOUR argument doesn't fly but is rather dragged through the mud.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:32:34 No.8782607
    >>8782594
    debase? does that mean they were inflating their currency?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:35:59 No.8782629
    >>8782603
    they've obviously been controlling for the amount of force that an average bow would be able to deliver, and it really is a rather convincing point that the pro-roman guy is making. also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt , the french knights survived the hail of arrows, so it stands to reason the romans could as well, albeit with increased but still not heavy losses
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:37:31 No.8782646
    >>8782607

    More or less. Roman coins were pure silver or gold in the beginning. As various emperors decided they needed more coins the precious metal content started dropping, along with their purchasing power. Of course, according to Roman law, the new debased coins would trade at par with older, pure coins, or rather they wouldn't because no one would give up their pure coins (thus illustrating Gresham's Law, bad money drives out good).

    When the empire officially fell, IIRC, their coins had no actual precious metal content.
    >> Sins !1hoJZZC0gE 05/06/10(Thu)04:38:21 No.8782654
    >>8782629
    Using their shields the Romans would be able to last better than the medieval knights and men at arms.
    >> Sins !1hoJZZC0gE 05/06/10(Thu)04:40:04 No.8782673
    >>8782646
    I am a coin collector myself. I have several specimens from the Roman era.

    The earlier coins (which were not cheap) are either part or whole silver. Whereas the coins beyond the year 200 AD tend to be Bronze or some other alloy.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:40:10 No.8782675
    >>8782629
    For the n-th time. They DID NOT TEST WHAT I'M REFERRING TO. Hail of arrows falling from the sky on romans with armor inferior to the one tested. Most roman soldiers wore leather armor. They had a huge army and couldn't afford to outfit everyone with tight fitting chest plates like they did the officers. That clip is interesting but it doesn't really pertain to what i'm saying.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:40:37 No.8782678
    >>8782603

    Why would a higher-angle shot have any more force behind it than a horizontal one?

    If anything a horizontal shot minimizes flight time and therefore air resistance (which is probably negligible for arrows, but whatever).
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:42:52 No.8782686
    i see alot of unpatrotic assholes in here

    who give afuck about some yellow monekys on hoeses and faggot gildos

    sndnt the fucking marines in and well rape them

    USA USA USA
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:43:05 No.8782689
    to >>8782675

    >>8782678 is right on the money, hail of arrows or not dem romans still had chain armor, the arrow is not more effective at penetration if it comes from above
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:44:00 No.8782694
    300 Spartans could pwn all of them.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:44:59 No.8782699
    >>8782678
    Longer flight path downward => more time to accelerate => dramatically increased kinetical energy.

    Just simple physics
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:45:23 No.8782700
    The Mongols lose to the vietnamese, wheres your invincible horseman now?

    Not due to weather either like Japan, but a straight up invasion. They never conquered south east Asia.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:45:59 No.8782704
    >>8782673

    That's pretty awesome...when I'm a rich and famous econ professor someday I'll need to get a display of Roman coins through history for my office, I think, and list their precious metal content.

    Then I can have a display of US currency since the dawn of central banking and list how much gold $100 would buy in each year.

    A simple and effective lesson, I think.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:48:07 No.8782718
    >>8782700

    >The Americans lose to the vietnamese, wheres your invincible air power now?

    >Not cheating with atomic bombs either like Japan, but a straight up invasion. They never conquered south east Asia.

    >>8782699

    Hahaha you fail physics forever.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:48:58 No.8782725
    300 Spartans > Romans + Mongolians
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:49:37 No.8782728
    >>8782718
    fuk u jelous cunt my bro is marines got guts why dont u him fught eh cunt, hell fuk u up

    chicken shit
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:50:06 No.8782733
    >>8782718
    >Hahaha you fail physics forever.
    Care to elaborate? By all means, please do.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:53:34 No.8782753
    >>8782733

    You're only taking into account the kinetic energy gained by an arrow on its journey downward. That is in fact equal to the kinetic energy it lost to gravity on its journey upward. The arrow will strike with the same kinetic energy without regard to the firing angle.

    All this is assuming no air resistance - but if you factor in air resistance your case looks worse, not mine.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)04:57:03 No.8782770
    >>8782699
    Segementata, a form of plate, or cain mail, was standard issue to all legionaires. Most auxiliaries had chain or scale mail. You're making shit up.

    >>8782675kinetical

    There's no response to this other than: lol
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:58:51 No.8782777
    >>8782753

    The arrow would have added kinetic energy if the archers were firing down from a great height, but not if they shoot a volley on a level battlefield.

    If physics worked how you say, guns would be made to fire straight up and have the bullets land on people.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)04:59:12 No.8782779
    >>8782753
    The arrow falling downward from the highest point of the parabollic trajectory will achieve higher velocity in the moment of impact than the one fired almost horizontally (fligh path almost a straight line). At the time of impact the arrow will have achieved almost terminal velocity thus increasing the kinetical energy. There is a reason modern day artillery is used the way it is instead of bringing it closer and firing horizontally.
    >> Delydel !GQtsITF/1w 05/06/10(Thu)04:59:17 No.8782781
    >>8782753
    >>8782733
    >>8782718
    >>8782699

    Fg = G (m1*m2)/(d^2)

    Done.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:01:04 No.8782795
    >>8782777
    True if you don't care about precision. Thats the difference between targeting a specific point and blanketing an area with non selective fire.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:03:23 No.8782809
         File1273136603.jpg-(371 KB, 1063x1510, [Soundz of Bell] Shimamura (7).jpg)
    371 KB
    romans
    there 1000 years ahead
    had a way more diverse army
    they would of adapted
    the mongols had micro armies with a ton of speed speed but no armor

    using there shields effectively the romans would win

    the mongols would charge and there horse archers would circle. defended romans archers would slow kill the horse men fire ballistics would soften the charging armies

    shields/tanks vrs no shields/scouts
    tanks with flamethrowers win
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:04:42 No.8782817
    >>8782809
    Romans using archers on the field of battle? You mad.
    >> Delydel !GQtsITF/1w 05/06/10(Thu)05:05:54 No.8782822
    >>8782809
    I think this statement

    >Tanks with flamethrowers win.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:06:07 No.8782823
    >>8782779

    Fuck, I'm getting trolled here, this is like the plane on a treadmill thing. Goddamn it I've taught physics classes. You fail forever.
    >> Oh God Rome is So Awesome 05/06/10(Thu)05:06:15 No.8782824
    >>8782779There is a reason modern day artillery is used the way it is instead of bringing it closer and firing horizontally.

    What? Modern artillery would be just as effective fired in any direction because it's the explosion that causes all the damage. You can't make the shell blow up harder by giving it more kinetic energy.

    The reason artillery fires in volleys is because its an indirect fire weapon, not because it does more damage if the shells fall on you instead of hit you in the chest.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:09:14 No.8782839
    Both armies would lose to micro'd Hellions with Infernal Preigniters. The splash damage on densely packed Roman legions would be ridiculous. Caesar'd just have to say gg.
    >> Sins !1hoJZZC0gE 05/06/10(Thu)05:10:56 No.8782844
    >>8782779
    You've never seen the glory of watching a battery of 105s or 155 firing at a point target horizontally.

    It's like watching the universe be created. There was this congressional/international envoy visiting and I managed to be the range safety officer.

    Decimated the target.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:12:14 No.8782855
    @Roman Steel and Armor:
    Maybe, but if they did they weren't making armor out of it. We have the remains of a half-dozen suits of lorica segmentata, all of which are constructed with iron bands. To propose that iron, banded armor would reliably stop steel-tipped arrows fired from Mongol composite bows is pretty far fetched, and I wouldn't put its odds very high against even the cheaper iron-tipped arrows.

    The other big (actually, the biggest) Roman armor was, indeed, chain. Chain performs very poorly against arrows, however, and was historically replaced by plate as the latter became more precisely engineered. Chain is not very useful against arrow strikes because the force is concentrated on the few links an arrowhead hits--- which, really, isn't very much metal to punch through, or links to force open.

    The following video is hardly scientific or historical, but it illustrates the point. Note that Roman lorica hamata was an iron, riveted, 4-in-1 weave -- actually a much weaker armor than that is depicted here (and Mongol bows would be a heavier draw than what is shown here):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeVThIMJ1H8

    Roman shields, made primarily of wood, would likely not be penetrated entirely but would catch the arrow after significant penetration (greater than a foot). This means that the shield will eventually split, or the bearer's arm will be punctured.

    @Arrow balistics and plunging fire:
    >Longer flight path downward => more time to accelerate => dramatically increased kinetical energy.

    In a perfect vacuum the arrow will loose precisely as much momentum reaching the highest point in its ballistic trajectory as it would gain descending. In the real world, it loses momentum to wind resistance the entire way. High-angle plunging fire was used to get more range out of an arrow volley, and to fire over friendly formations, not to add to the volley's penetrating power.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:20:28 No.8782897
    >>8782817
    no im just this thread
    i just asumed that if they devend there archers and fire balistics they would win over a non armored army that and they had a more diverce army so they would of addapted faster and well yea shields are a big part of war
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:20:37 No.8782899
    >>8782855
    So, to return the thread to the original question after a long winded debate about just one aspect of warfare, Mongolians or Romans?
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:27:47 No.8782963
    Mongols tactics where very similiar to hun tactics. They raped the roman empire and that was about 300 years before the invasion of the mongols. Hit and run tactics were always the nightmare for the infatry oriented battle style of the europeans.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:30:05 No.8782988
    1. Many people are underestimating the power of well-positioned and maneuvered infantry.
    2. While the propagandized nature of Commentarii de Bello Gallico can't be denied, in it there were still numerous accounts of the superiority of Roman fortifications in the taming of rampant cavalry. See: the circumvellation of Alesia.
    3. The close-combat lethality of the average Mongol cavalryman couldn't even come close to comparing with the training, strength and armament of the average Roman legionnaire; they walked, the Mongol rode.
    4. Many heavy infantry classes--and the Roman legions were heavy infantry before the term became popular--were created and led into battle for their distinct ability to resist a charge by heavy cavalry behind light fortifications and shields while counter-harassing with projectiles.

    I doubt it would be very decisive one way or another without taking into account whoever happened to be commanding either side on that day. But given their greatest examples, like Scipio or Caesar or Germanicus, v. Ghengis, Kubla orTamerlane, and optimum conditions for both sides, I think it would be a bloodbath, with a slight advantage to the Mongols as heavy infantry around that time was a known factor, whereas around the time of the Romans there were very few examples of elite, well-manuevered cavalry from which the legions could glean overwhelmingly dominating tactics..
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:38:04 No.8783053
    >>8782899
    As the poster of that wall of text, Mongolians hands-down.

    I love Rome, but the legions are outclassed technologically here. The Mongol horse archers would be devastating alone, but they never fought that way. At its height, the Mongol empire actually controlled more resources than Rome ever did, and could (and did) field heavy infantry with all the same advances of technology that helped its archers out. The combination of these steel-armed heavy infantry, the advanced and skilled horse archers, and the weight of a mighty empire's greater resources would definitely defeat Rome in battle.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:38:20 No.8783055
    teh romans they had archers on horses 2
    and more ! and they had shields mix that with chain mail add archers and well yea romans
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:39:13 No.8783071
    >>8782809
    >1000 years ahead
    Not when it comes to battle tactics or amor.

    >they would of adapted
    Would have, should have, could have. Not an argument.


    >the mongols had micro armies with a ton of speed speed but no armor
    They conquered both Persia and Russia at the same time. Romans couldn't even take out Persia. Source on "micro armies"?

    >using shields the romans would win
    No, they would only survive but wouldn't be abble to take out the invading army.

    >defended romans archers would slow kill the horse men
    Sagitari were few. If you have room to shoot an arrow it means the mongol horse archers can also shoot you. Remember that archers did not employed accuracy, but numbers. The typical rain of arrows on top of a cluster of soldiers. Mongols had many more bows than what the romans could have ever mustered.

    >fire ballistics would soften the charging armies
    The mongols also employed siege engines taken from the chinese.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:39:36 No.8783078
    >>8782988
    And, btw, Roman cavalry wasn't a nonexistant or negligible thing--it was just used as an addition to the legions, for scouting and opportunistic attacks. The Romans did start filling out the ranks of their cavalry eventually.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:43:46 No.8783130
    The Mongols. Everybody thinks that they're all horse cavalry, but they actually employ a wide variety of forces. They have siege weapons capable of taking down Roman fortresses. They use local population as human shields to swarm the enemy infantry before they attack with cavalry. Finally, when you compare cavalry-based army to infantry-based, speed would always allow cavalry to conquer before an infantry squad can be deployed.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:44:01 No.8783133
    >>8783071
    Are you forgetting the pilum? Usually legionaries carried two of them, and they were often deployed in direct opposition to mounted charges.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum

    I'm not saying the Romans had comparible projectile weapons to the Mongols, but they were far from defenseless.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:46:22 No.8783155
    >>8782963
    >300 years
    Huns were 5th century, Mongols were 13th. But, your point is sound.

    >>8782988
    Yes, there is a historical precedent for defeating horse archers. The problem in the comparing these battles to the Mongols is that, in the earlier fights, it was the weight of an empire crashing down on a province. You can do a lot of creative things when you vastly outnumber the enemy.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:47:17 No.8783167
    >>8783130
    Over long distances, the Roman legions could march comparible distances to any cavalry formation. If you're talking about close-in manueverability, then of course the Tumen had the advantage. Because hroses run faster than people.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:49:29 No.8783190
    >>8783155
    The Romans invented many of the creative things you're talking about. I doubt they would be greatly shaken up. And from the Republic to the later Empire, the weight of Rome crashing down on your nation was usually what kept most of the world relatively pacified.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:50:52 No.8783202
    The one thing that is troublesome is the fact that OP didn't specify wether one side is invading another or are they waging war on some area where the empires would have touched if they had proportinally extended toward each other.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:52:29 No.8783215
    >>8783190
    That being said, the legions were by no means invincible. As I said, in both the Roman legions and the Mongol Tumen you have elite, hard-nosed military formations noted for their manuerverability, endurance and fighting acumen--two very well-honed tools of war. Much of who emerged the victor would depend on who utilized the tools better.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:53:23 No.8783226
    My money is on the Romans. Just because I hate Mongolians. I mean, who the fuck likes the Mongolians? Fuck you.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)05:58:44 No.8783267
    >>8783190
    >...the creative things you're talking about...
    Sorry, anonymous posters, I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

    > And from the Republic to the later Empire, the weight of Rome crashing down on your nation was usually what kept most of the world relatively pacified.

    Yes, If by 'world' you mean Europe and the Mediterranean. The only fight Rome had in its own weight class (at its prime) was Persia. The Mongol empire, at its height, controlled greater resources than Rome ever dreamed of.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)06:00:58 No.8783285
    Genghis Kahn is the son of the blue wolf and his lover, the red deer.

    MONGOL UP IN HYEEEAAAAH
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)06:02:27 No.8783296
         File1273140147.jpg-(27 KB, 306x428, motochagataixp4.jpg)
    27 KB
    >>8783226

    The Unicorn Clan is here for your provinces.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)06:02:53 No.8783298
    >>8783267
    The world was a much smaller place in 50 B.C. than it was in 1400, little boy. The Romans didn't trip and fall into complete dominance of the Mediterranean--a great feat at the time of the Republic and Early Empire. Many wars were fought, great and small, roads were built and populations enveloped.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)06:10:00 No.8783348
    WHOA! Ancient History is serious business apparently.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)06:12:17 No.8783367
    Can't we just agree that the the Mongols and Romans were glorious and war will never be the same as it was centuries ago?

    The Great Khan and Caesar were Names, Men of History. Who cares who would win in a fight, wouldn't you just want to be there to see it all unfold? The compound bow against the formation, the legionnaire against the horse archer.

    Glorious.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)07:32:09 No.8783980
    History has shown repeatedly that cavalry forces are always defeated by a solid and well trained infantry force. Just look at Rome and the rape of Parthia.
    The Mongol Army of Genghis Khan was designed primarily to fight in the open fields, when you look at the territories that the Mongols under Genghis conquered, they were primarily regions that had large open tracts of land.

    The Mongols were terrible at close quarter combat. At the Battle of Legnica when the Mongol cavalry directly clashed with the European knights, the Mongols suffered unusually high casualties. And despite what many believe, compared to their agrarian neighbors, the Mongols could not deploy many soldiers to the field, so every soldiers life was considered precious. The Mongols may have won the battle, but it was considered disastrous by their standards.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:05:00 No.8784206
    Mongols. Romans were (and still are) pansies.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:13:50 No.8784269
    The Roman Empire basically used an updated version of the Greek Phalanx.
    Mongols used highly mobile horse-mounted bowmen.

    The mongol tactics were so unothodox that their enemies foundered every time. They also had a knack for AVOIDING enemy fortifications, meaning that when Roman soldiers weren't being slaughtered by bowmen shooting from out of the range of their pikes, or going too fast for their archers, they'd be sitting in their fortifications while the mongols razed their cities.

    This is coming from a HUGE FAN of the Roman Empire btw.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:16:01 No.8784284
    Romans and steam engines and guns.

    They win.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:19:32 No.8784305
    Rome only has a chance in an all out defensive seige in Rome itself or a similarly fortified city.
    >> BEEF? MONGOLOID ST8 OF U M8 !lttbKwpttA 05/06/10(Thu)08:32:09 No.8784377
    Ez. The Imperial Japanese.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:37:36 No.8784408
    >>8784284

    Oh that's right, I forgot, Robert Fulton traveled back in time to lend a little industrial revolution superpower to old Rome.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:52:38 No.8784506
    >>8784305
    no chance. the mongols would salt the earth for miles around. no food in = everyone is fucked within 1 year.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)08:57:24 No.8784547
    mongols emphasized horse archers which the romans sucked shit again (as least Crassus did). I'd say the mongols would win.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:09:09 No.8784639
         File1273151349.jpg-(17 KB, 530x452, Testudo2.jpg)
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    TESTUDO FTW
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:09:11 No.8784640
    >>8784547
    Yeah, considering how badly Crassus and his legions did against Parthian horse archers, I would say that at the very least, even under a better commander, the Mongols would have a slight advantage on an open battlefield.

    If the mongols tried to raid/siege any Roman cities...well it's a toss up, but I don't think they'd actually do that, chances are they'd stick to raiding the country side and farmlands which would fuck over the Romans pretty bad.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:12:13 No.8784653
    >>8784639
    If the Romans tried to do that the Mongols would probably just run and continue raiding the country side if they get far enough, but as soon as the Romans would get out of formation to follow (because you can't run in that formation) then the Mongols would hit again.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:33:13 No.8784797
    >>8784506
    >implying salting the earth is a valuable tactic and not just a waste of food preservative
    >implying the mongols would salt food supplies they'd rely on for the duration of the siege
    >> Mr.Brown the ice-cream man 05/06/10(Thu)09:35:09 No.8784813
    The Romans would identify the different factions within the Mongol hierarchy and use their political skills to assume advantage through an intricate game of divide and conquer.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:35:24 No.8784816
    No matter who won, it would be very standoff-ish with the Mongol horse archers kiting the Romans, and the Romans defending in turtle formation to protect against arrows.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)09:38:39 No.8784839
    look at it this way, Alexander would be known as Alexander the little or Alexander the raped.
    >> Sins !1hoJZZC0gE 05/06/10(Thu)09:41:03 No.8784855
    >>8784839
    wtfamireading.jpg

    Alexander the Great was a Macedonian Greek.
    >> Cliff Burton !MqvkYkWLrE 05/06/10(Thu)09:41:44 No.8784862
    >>8784839

    Get your dates right idiot. Both of these empires occurred after Macedon was at it's height.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)11:18:53 No.8785416
    has happened people, partians fought like mongols, and they won a massive battle agains romans even killing the emperor

    wiki BATTLE OF CARRHAE
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)12:50:15 No.8786237
    >>8780987
    I've got a batcholor of science w/majors in early european history and military doctrine. Depending on the tactics on the field, there would be a lot of draws with even numbers. If it was open plains, mongols, if it was clustered hills/trees romans.

    Lots of cluster fucking all around. It would be a war of attrition, numbers and supply line stability. Because the mongols were famous for destroying stores they couldn't carry.
    >> Canesfag the /sp/artan !nsiRaCtiUU 05/06/10(Thu)13:08:02 No.8786425
    Well, post Marian, Romans would probably win. The Marian reforms shaped the modern military (professional soldiers given their own equipment rather than those who supplied their own). Post Marian wins.

    Pre Marian, it'd be close. The Romans had Triarii, who fought in phalanx-type formations, and everyone knows that spears and horses don't mix. I'd say Mongols win.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:42:59 No.8786799
    >>8786425

    A mongol horseman won't go to the Triarii.

    Roman's only real chance would be in a defensive war, but then macedonian phalaxes would have probably been a better option.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:47:53 No.8786853
    you guys are fucking ignorant. romans would go turtle formation and make all their arrows useless
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:49:54 No.8786872
    >>8784639
    >>8784639
    >>8784639
    >>8784639


    this shit would render their arrows useless
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:55:41 No.8786921
    >>8780780

    not in my medieval campaign they didnt
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:57:34 No.8786942
    Mongols were gay kiting bastards.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:57:36 No.8786943
    >>8786853

    You're ignorant to believe that there aren't gaps in it.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)13:58:30 No.8786953
    >>8784639

    TETUSOOOOOO!
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)14:01:08 No.8786984
    The real question is whether a parthian or mongol army would win. Romans were foot-walking sons of bitches, they can fuck themselves. Parthians were the true warriors - they only lost their empire due to having enemies on every fucking side attacking their asses 100% of the time.
    >> Anonymous 05/06/10(Thu)14:01:54 No.8786991
    ITT, slit-eyed gooks with tiny cocks circle-jerking to some other gooks who beat a few slavfags some centuries ago.



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