The reform will make it a lot better for the uninsured and the lower classes. The upper classes will see no difference and possibly it might even be worse for them.

>>8013098

Like I give a fuck about the upper classes. So it was alright when the richest cocksuckers in the fucking country got to help themselves to seven hundred billion dollars, but now this is uncalled for? Fuck those greedy pecker tracks.

Some people don't want to pay for insurance. They do not want to be forced by the government to pay for something that they do not want.

>>8013184
they dont want to die, but they dont want to pay for insurance either. so the government has to force them to pay what they want to use.

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock, powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly, regulated by the US department of energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.

After that, I turned the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food which has been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved car and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the departmental of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, I drive back to my house which has not been burned down thanks to to the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and it has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the internet, which was developed by the US department of defense, and post on the free public access website 4chan about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

>>8013049
A half-black guy wanted to pass it, so all the republicans are butthurt.

>>8013230

That's pretty much what it boils down to, really.

Does everyone in Australia keep up with another country's politics? We don't in the US - although I sometimes pay attention to Brit politics cuz its fascinating sometimes.

>>8013219

This, boys and girls, is how a reply is executed.

mandatory insurance, fema death camps, etc. etc.

Not an americunt but:

Companies can't deny insurance even if you have "pre-existing" conditions. Now you don't have to sell your kidney if your kid gets brain cancer. If you are 0-26, you can be part of your parents' health plans. Taxes will be slightly higher for the richest Americans. Overall the plan will reduce their deficit. Apparently, that along with relatively small fines if you don't take part of this evil, evil plan has angered many americunts that receive a sick twisted pleasure from watching their own people die.

Wasn't one of the major reasons for not passing the bill the fact that it would make abortions easier to get? And since the republicans are mostly raging bible thumpers, they were against this?

>>8013219

THIS is WIN.

Fucken saved, good sir.

>>8013242
i don't think most people do. I don't really keep up to date with US politics but do read the news on the net pretty much every day. I don't really know much about politics but I probably know a lot more than most people in aus. Lets face it, most people don't give a shit about politics in their own country let alone those of another country's.

Most people complain about the president or prime minister of their country without knowing any facts. They read a bullshit headline or hear something a co worker or friend said and base their information from that.

An example is our last prime minister. John Howard was prime minister for four terms. At the time he was voted out, the aus economy was doing well. In australia's history, a party almost never gets voted out when the nation's economy is strong. This is how it has been. He was the second longest serving prime minister in aus.

It just got to a point where he was being bashed by the media with "bloody john howard" and people were just getting tired of him. A lot of people said they just wanted a change. People mostly do not know shit about politics. You think most 20 year old aussies know anything about politics? It is compulsory to vote here as well. So you get a lot of fuckwits who do not know shit about anything speaking up about issues they know little about.

Sometimes I think it is like the middle ages and everyone are peasants who can be easily fooled. Of course not everyone has the time or wants to put in the effort to research stuff cos it is boring as fuck to read about the policies etc

>>8013284

Get serious. The Republican party doesn't actually care about abortion, not as a litmus test for legislation.

They were against it because they are in the pocket of big insurance companies, and they are using this as an issue to stir up their support base for the next election cycle.

It's only about money and politics. It has fuck-all to do whether it's bad legislation or not.

>>8013270
so most conservatives do not want their taxes raised? Who the fuck would? No one wants to pay more tax for any reason

There has to be other reasons why the republicans do not want this to pass right?

>>8013270
the rich don't pay any taxes

it's the middle class that gets screwed every time the government wants to pass more spending.

>>8013301
would the reform be bad or good for the insurance companies? If everyone is forced to pay for insurance, won't their profits go up?

But I heard that they can no longer refuse and cannot charge a premium for pre existing conditions either. So this might scost them more money in the long run

>>8013219
meanwhile, at the underfunded underperforming and overlooked public school system where your children will never learn to survive without these luxuries incase of an emergency

>>8013242
Just joined thread. I keep up with the US stuff, because you guys make such a big deal over nothing. Also plan to move there one day. But it is so funny watching people cry out they are ruined because now they have healthcare.

>>8013306

Here are the main reasons among "normal Republicans" (i.e. not the intelligentsia, ergo these won't be satisfying arguments but they will tell you why):

1.) They see Universal Health Care as a significant move toward further state control and intervention into the economy and the personal lives of its citizens - which two arenas are very entangled in the American tradition

2.) They think we can't afford it: Obama isn't taxing enough to pay for it and his grand plan is "lul I have a report that says it will pay for itself a few years after I leave office". The government virtually always says this and it's virtually never true - this is one of the stronger points the Republicans have, I think.

3.) They really don't like the idea of government being involved in medicine because they think Liberals could later use this control to further force their agenda on the people - state-funded abortions, etc. etc. etc.

Those are the main big 3 I think.

>>8013311
is this actually true? Here in aus I would consider myself as earning a middle class income. Well used to. Unemployed now.

I found it hard as shit to break out of middle class. The tax just ate everything up. If you make 150k, about 50k would go to tax. Back in 2007, anything you earnt over 150k was taxed at 45%. It felt like shit giving almost half of your money over to the government when already you pay a lot.

>>8013344
The federal government could also use health care funding to extort state governments to fall in line much like they already do with road funding.

>>8013219
The main problem with your overused argument is that all your examples use industries and services that did no exist or are public services. Health care is not a public service, and it already exists as a private industry. Also the postal service is private.

My main issues with public health care are:

1. How will we pay for it? Yes we waste a lot of money on other things and we need to cut back, but adding a trillion dollars to our debt, adding taxes and fines to small businesses and fining those who do not acquire insurance is ridiculous, especially with the economy in it's current fragile state. 62% of my money already goes to government at some level. I make a decent living but the taxes are fucking killing me, even a small increase will be too much.

2. The US government is incompetent! We already have health care for a relatively small portion of our population that can not afford health care called Medicare and Medicaid. That only covers like 6% of Americans I believe and and has the entire work force supporting it and its bankrupt and is cut severely every year. How can they expect us to trust them to handle anything...

3. I might sound like an asshole, but I really don't give a shit if my neighbor can't afford health care and I certainly don't want to pay for his health in any way. If he was a responsible and contributing member of society he would be able to take care of himself...

>>8013344
well with those points, I think most people would care about 2 because it directly affects them. Having to pay more money for something that you do not directly benefit from would piss a lot of people off.

Abortions and the increased government intervention might get some people upset but I don't think it would matter as much as having to pay more

>>8013353
it's 100% true.

the ultra-rich pay absolutely nothing in taxes since they can afford to hire tax attorneys and set up trusts and charities to write off their expenses.

for the rest of us middle class motherfuckers we're forced to foot the bill for everything.

>>8013219
dear god that was fucking beautiful.

>>8013372
See: >>8013359

Just as an example, the federal government could refuse to give California health care funding if they don't reverse Marijuana decriminalization and or get rid of their medical Marijuana laws.

They've done similar shit in the past with regards to road funding. Louisiana roads were the worst in the country because they refused to shut down their drive through Daiquiri stands and the federal government didn't like that.

>>8013376
sucks man. I wanted to try and get into setting up that kind of shit, but my accountant said it would cost money. And when you earn say 150k it is not worth it as you pay a lot more accountant fees and you may not save anything. Also there are some restrictions with setting up companies and trusts etc. I need to use my money now and can't have it sitting somewhere or someshit. I can't afford to buy a property under the name of a trust because I don't even have one under my own name.

I was discussing this with a fellow ausfag. We were thinking how so many welathy US dudes donate to charity through their own trusts. I wonder if this is a scam somehow to pay less tax. Eg. they set up a trust to donate to inner city kids. They actually do donate money to kids but the trust buys a ferrari for them to drive around in. I wonder if that shit is legit and people do that sort of stuff

>>8013408
that is insane. I didn't know that the fed govt can refuse something like that when the bill has already been passed. Like fucking children they are. "you can't have your allowance if you do not clean your room". "but you promised I could have $5 a week, you even signed a piece of paper saying so"

Weird how even when it is a law, the federal government can cut funding just like that

I don't get what rich people paying more taxes has to do with anything. Or how it's fair. (You either work to get the money, or are given it, neither of which means you owe more to society)

>>8013409
the whole trust/charity thing in this country is basically a huge money laundering scam to cheat the government out of money due to how the tax system works.

>>8013448
elaborate. You cannot make claims like that without giving an example

>>8013485
ok, let's look at 501(c)'s (tax-exempt corporation or entity).

you can set up a 501(c) and use that to buy property which is then re-sold at a profit. this side steps any taxes that the government would be collecting since it is ostensibly for a charity.

it's like setting up a restaurant to launder money from your drug business. except instead of drawing attention away from the DEA you're drawing it away from the IRS.

>>8013554
yeah but the profit of the sale belongs to the charity. So you have not actually made money. The charity has. How do you get that money to your pocket from the charity?

>>8013367

As a son who's father died of cancer, I can safely say fuck you, sir. Fuck you right in the ass. The current system is designed to lay all the expense on people who actually get sick, essentially punishing them for their misfortune. My father was a productive, loyal, and successful middle class american who's cancer bankrupted his family, ruined his children's educational prospects, and nearly rendered his family homeless. Our family was reduced to living off of the charity of our friends and neighbors, as we poured every last dollar into his basic medical treatment.

As a young professional who strives to reestablish his family's long term finances, I can say fuck you too. I'm just over the family coverage age, and no insurer will have me due a preexisting condition (asthma). Whenever an attack flares up, I'm forced to go to the emergency room and stabilize myself. This comes at tremendous personal cost for myself when I can afford the bill, and the hospital's cost when I can't.

Costs need to be constrained, and this bill is a step in the right direction.

>>8013614
you don't own anything, you have the charity own it. if you're a parent of the charity then ideally you would have nothing in your name. see where i'm going?

>>8013654
so you live in the chairty's beach house? Drive the charity's bentley? Shit like that? Why doesn't ALL of america do this? SOunds like a potential scam to me

>>8013367

>1. How will we pay for it?

The best estimates are that the health care plan saves money.

> 62% of my money already goes to government at some level. I make a decent living but the taxes are fucking killing me, even a small increase will be too much.

I'm curious - where do you get the 62% number from?

>2. The US government is incompetent!

It isn't.

>3. I might sound like an asshole

Yes you do.

>>8013631
That one personal experience sure does qualify you to make sweeping assumptions about our healthcare industry as a whole huh? I'm not trying to be an asshole but following emotions and bleeding heart stories and the like is exactly how NOT to go about reforming something as big and crucial as healthcare.

>>Does everyone in Australia keep up with another country's politics?

one of our public broadcasters (SBS) has news throughout the day from two dozen different countries on rotation; das journal, pbs newshour, aljazeera, TV espana, etc etc. and its main nightly bulleting is almost totally international stories

we have to do this. our own politics is so profoundly irrelevant and cringeworthy to us

>>8013685
pretty much yes. but that is just one example of a way to cheat the IRS.

the reason only the ultra-rich does this is because you need the money to hire a tax attorney, accountant, etc. and to set up the trust/charity.

>>8013705
define ultra rich. Because even if you earn 100k per year, you can avoid ALL tax if you are a charity. In the long run, even with lawyers and accountants' fees, you will be ahead by far. It is like paying ZERO tax

>>8013631
If you father was so productive how did he manage to acquire insurance for himself and his family? Also, bullfuckingshit you can't get insurance cause you have asthma! My grandfather has had 2 heart attacks, a quad bipass, has emphysema, and is like 85 years old and he just got a new private health insurance policy. My father has emphysema and some other problem with his lungs, has smoked since he was 16 and has heart problems and buys private insurance as well with no problem.

>>8013687
>The best estimates are that the health care plan saves money.
The democrats have said that it will cost over a trillion dollars over the next 10 years, and the republicans are estimating over 3x that......

>I'm curious - where do you get the 62% number from?
That comes from calculating all the taxs I pay...
They take 41% right of the top for federal and state income tax. Then there is fica which is just as much as federal income, then 8.5% sales tax, $3150 in property tax, all the ridiculous tax on my electricity, gas, phone, and cable bills. All the tax on gasoline, plus the several hundred dollars I pay to the DMV every year. When I cash in my vacation time or get a bonus they take 60% of it instead of the normal 40ish %. I added up everything and at the end of the year after I was all done I only got 38% of the money I actually made for the year...
>>2. The US government is incompetent!
>It isn't.
I gave a specific example of how they are inefficient and a clear example of how they are incompetent and you only reply is, "It isn't"... good argument.

And I don't really care if i sound like an asshole, survival of the fittest. It's just too bad your dad didn't die before you were born so that his shitty cancer prone genes weren't passed on to you.

>>8013893

I'd address the points you presented, but one was fairly incomprehensible and the other was a personal anecdote which is supposed to counter mine somehow. It's great that your grandfather can get coverage. I can't.

Either way, shut up and suck it up. We win, you win whether you realise it or not, and America wins. Welcome to tomorrow, I hope you like it here.

Imagine America's current situation is new york.
The Bill that has just been passed takes it to chicago.

UHC is on saturn.

>>8014725
You're a fucking moron, all his points made sense and because you have terrible English skills and reading comprehension you don't understand it.

Go smoke your fucking weed and collect welfare like the shits that are ruining this country.

Are taxes going to be raised in order to fund this thing? blox. If so, how can anyone who pays taxes be for this?

>>8014831
because they all assume someone else is going to be paying the taxes. history of the democratic party.

>What currently happens when someone who does not have insurance goes to the hospital because they fell off their bike and broke their arm? If they cannot afford to pay what happens then?

The hospital treats them, then they get a bill. If they don't pay that bill, one of two things happens: 1) Their income is high enough to pay for the bill, so the hospital sends it to collections. 2) Their income is really low, so the hospital writes it off.

>>8013893
>The democrats have said that it will cost over a trillion dollars over the next 10 years, and the republicans are estimating over 3x that....

The bill will cost $940 billion over the first 10 years and reduce the deficit by $130 billion during that period. In the second 10 years -- so, 2020 to 2029 -- it will reduce the deficit by $1.2 trillion.

i used to think that we couldn't afford things like health care until I realized that we pay $300 billion for things like new fighter jets.

>>8013317
>meanwhile, at the underfunded underperforming and overlooked public school system where your children will never learn to survive without these luxuries incase of an emergency

Hahaha
Us spends tons of money on its education system, its still a broken shitty system.
And the thing is, its probably the teachers unions that bogs it down.
They have so much political influiance, that anything done to improve the system gets vetoed, and they even force payrises due to their combined voting power vs goverment elected boards.

LRDR version: School unions need to be broken before things will get better. Money has nothing to do with it, as they are overpaid compared to other countries.

>>8014865

And the consequences are this:

either 1. They collect from someone an exorbinant amount of money, possibly bankrupting them in the long run

or 2. they pay for the patient, and cover the cost of his treatment by raising prices for other customers.

Forcing everyone to have healthcare is the first step to lowering health care prices

>>8014873
They say that about every spending plan they pass.

None of them have ended up saving money.

>>8014804

>If you father was so productive how did he manage to acquire insurance for himself and his family?

How is that a fucking salient point at all? He had a good job, so he was able to provide insurance? There's no question, just retarded shit spewing.

Everything else wasn't addressed to me, so I didn't respond to it.

>>8014894

>they are overpaid compared to other countries
>public school teachers
>overpaid
>average public school teacher makes 40,000 a year

The fuck is wrong with you? If anything they're underpaid

>>8013893
>The democrats have said that it will cost over a trillion dollars over the next 10 years, and the republicans are estimating over 3x that......

The CBO estimates that it will save nearly $200 billion over the next 10 years in comparison to doing nothing (or something like that, I'm too busy to look up the exact figures). The Republican proposal didn't do near that, and it didn't offer the levels of coverage, etc. that the Democratic proposal did.

>>>2. The US government is incompetent!
>>It isn't.
>I gave a specific example of how they are inefficient and a clear example of how they are incompetent and you only reply is, "It isn't"... good argument.

You didn't give a clear example of anything at all. Medicare works very well for the people lucky enough or old enough to be on it.

Let me suggest the following - lots of those tea partiers were out there wanting to "kill the bill" because they didn't want their Medicare touched. Medicare is a government run program. Do you not see the irony in a bunch of small government, anti-tax elderly demanding their Social Security and Medicare? I'll add into the mix of complete hypocrites the big military expenditure Republicans who see no problem with trillion dollar expenditures for new wars, but scream bloody murder if the money is spent on new roads, public goods or any kind of social support system.

>>8014894
the federal government doesn't spend anything, public schools are almost exclusively funded through local property taxes.

thats why you have awesome public schools in places like beverly hills and shitty ones in ghetto detroit.

The "scam" is the way the current system functions...you pay into a health insurance fund for years, only to find out that the disease you contract isn't covered. Or, you get prostate cancer at age 27, and then are denied treatment because you were "too young" to fit the standard profile for that disease. Or, you get sick and lose your job and benefits, which includes coverage for diabetes medication. Then, when you resume work, you can't get insurance for your preexisting condition. Or you simply work at Walmart or McDonalds, and your employer limits you to 33 hours a week so they don't have to pay health insurance benefits!
The current system is full of scams ... that's why we need some comprehensive legislation to resolve the horrific, family-destroying shortfalls. If you don't agree, move to another country. You'll have to look for a Third World home, however: every developed nation already has some form of the universal, socialized medicine you abhor. They do this to protect their citizens from the scams perpetuated by insurers and businesses in America and to ensure a healthy, productive work force at all income levels!

>>8014894
new teachers only get like $35k/year. i'm not a teacher but that seems fair and borderline too low, considering that they're going to have student loans in the $50k range.

>>8014930
People who work at McDonalds and WalMart don't deserve healthcare, it's a fucking job not a career.

>>8014955

But HUMANS deserve health care.

any of you heard of a little city called central falls? teachers got paid there like 75k a year on average, and every single one of them got fired because the teachers union refused to help out the failing kids some more.

ever since patriarca died, the unions have run this state. it's fucking frightening.

>>8014962
>implying people who make less than $200k/year are human

>>8014973

Cool really short, unsourced, undescriptive story bro

>>8014962
No they fucking don't.
Eating, one of the necessities of life, costs money because if people gave it away for free, they would lose time and money.

It makes no fucking sense, and it's not a fucking right, it's a privilege.

>>8014977

That's exactly the sort of attitude that seems to be prevalent.

>if you aren't rich you must have done something wrong, therefore you must be a defective person and since you are inferior you do not deserve anything from anyone

Y so greedy?

>>8014991

Again I say, y so greedy?

>>8013690

Idiots like you are the reason I drift closer to full-fledged misanthropy with every passing day. If his one personal experience was anywhere close to unique then you would have a point. Unfortunately there are literally millions of other people in this country with similar stories. When you have thousands of people dying every year, and countless more being driven to poverty as a result of a broken health care system, than yes, sweeping assumptions are going to be fucking made!

>>8015016
people like you would force us all to work for free. take your commie bullshit elsewhere.

>>8015016
Why do you want to spend my money?

>>8015040
I DESERVE TO SPEND YOUR MONEY BECAUSE I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING WITHOUT WORKING FOR IT

>>8015040

You're not entitled to your "money". Money is an economic construct created by man in order to devise a way to more effectively distribute resources. We allow people to their own property because capitalism generally produces effective products that benefit the nation as a whole.

However, if capitalism and free enterprise can't provide for the country, then the government will, which is why we tax. You have no "right" to your money. By being a US citizen you have signed a social contract to obey the US governments laws. And since the US Government works in the interests of the people (or atleast is supposed to), you have an obligation to provide resources for public services.'

After all, you wouldn't have anything if it weren't for said government and provided services

>>8015088
>DURRR YOU USE ROADS SO JUST GIVE US YOUR MONEY SO JAMAL CAN SMOKE CRACK ALL DAY

That's not how it works.

>>8015136
you, sir, are an idiot

>>8015136
> Hurr I have no intelligent response to this post so I'll just make a strawman argument

>>8015136
we already have a little socialism, so total communism can't be bad amirite??? guys???

>>8015174
>I'm retarded and I use internet cliches like "straw man argument"

>>8015173
>>8015174

I'm not going to respond seriously to someone who thinks that:

>You have no "right" to your money.

deal w/ it

>>8015186

>I think logical fallacies are 'internet cliches'

>>8015088
Wow you are retarded. That's not what money is.

>>8015190

What's wrong. asspained that someone is turning an objective eye to your blind dogma?

>>8015197

>money isn't a human construct created to manage the distribution of resources
>I'm a moron

>>8015088
>>8015088
>>8015088

Preetty much this

/thread

sadfasfasfasblox

>>8015202
Money is a medium for exchange allowing for value to be placed on objects. You are a retard if you think money is an economic structure considering an economic structure wouldn't be an economic structure without money. Get your fucking stupid pseudo-sociologist bullshit out of /r9k/.

>>8015216
>Money is a medium for exchange allowing for value to be placed on objects

Jesus you're fucking stupid. It's the exact same thing.

>You are a retard if you think money is an economic structure considering an economic structure wouldn't be an economic structure without money.

Not true, basic trading could be an economic structure. Money is just a part of an economic system we've developed to effectively distribute resources.

>>8013247
This reply was copypasta...

>>8015231
By what sick definition of 'effective' do see it as? If anything it's ineffective because it bars who can and cannot receive said resources.

>>8013219
I approve of this pasta.

>>8015198
Oh, so because I use public services that invalidates me from having opinions on the limit of government?

This is a republic, not Soviet Russia. It is possible for someone to think that the government should maintain roads and utilities and not provide support for a lifestyle.

>>8015290

money in itself is just a way of keeping track of resources and value. It's the rest of the system that determines how that money is distributed

In the capitalist system, people own their money entirely and can spend value on whatever they want

In the communist system, the government owns all the money and divides its evenly among the people

In a mixed economy like the US, Canada and European nations. There's a combination of the two.

The point is that property isn't an innate creation. There's no divine natural law that grants you exclusive usage of a piece of land. It's a human construct given and protected by the government (and indirectly the people who elect them)

>>8015324

All I'm saying is that you're wrong in thinking you're inherently entitled to your money. Free economies are a means, not an end in and of themselves.

>>8015190

Money is created and has value because of the US government. The US government does not grant you the right to keep all of your money, as it requires funds to operate and continue to be a powerful enough institution to back the money it prints, giving it value.

>>8015341
I disagree because I believe that property is a natural right derived from labor. The government has no more right to arbitrarily do as it pleases with my property than it does to infringe my right of free speech.

>>8015514

Your "natural right" is just as arbitrary.

>>8015324
Driving is a lifestyle choice I don't support.

WITHIN THE FIRST YEAR OF ENACTMENT

*Insurance companies will be barred from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Lifetime coverage limits will be eliminated and annual limits are to be restricted.

*Insurers will be barred from excluding children for coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

*Young adults will be able to stay on their parents' health plans until the age of 26. Many health plans currently drop dependents from coverage when they turn 19 or finish college.

*Uninsured adults with a pre-existing conditions will be able to obtain health coverage through a new program that will expire once new insurance exchanges begin operating in 2014.

*A temporary reinsurance program is created to help companies maintain health coverage for early retirees between the ages of 55 and 64. This also expires in 2014.

*Medicare drug beneficiaries who fall into the "doughnut hole" coverage gap will get a $250 rebate. The bill eventually closes that gap which currently begins after $2,700 is spent on drugs. Coverage starts again after $6,154 is spent.

*A tax credit becomes available for some small businesses to help provide coverage for workers.

*A 10 percent tax on indoor tanning services that use ultraviolet lamps goes into effect on July 1.

WHAT HAPPENS IN 2011

*Medicare provides 10 percent bonus payments to primary care physicians and general surgeons.

*Medicare beneficiaries will be able to get a free annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan service. New health plans will be required to cover preventive services with little or no cost to patients.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

NO, says the man in Washington. It belongs to those willing to exploit welfare, social security, and medicare!

I'd just like to welcome you all to Massachusetts. I hope you enjoy your stay.

>>8015611
Alright ms Rand, calm down.

>>8015611

Fuck you, Massachusetts is better than whatever shitty-ass state you're from.

>>8015698
Texas? We're doing very well thank you.

>>8015714
>Texas? We're doing very well thank you.

laughingelfman.jpg

Look at american public schools.

Now imagine that shittiness with a healthcare system. There are going to be people raging.

>>8015726
>I've never ventured outside my basement

>>8013437
by your logic, it should be the poor people who can't even afford a place to live or groceries and need the government's help to survive that should be paying all the taxes in America. did I miss something?

100% inheritance tax.

make all that bullshit described earlier that the rich do illegal.

Econfag here. The problem with healthcare is that nobody pays for their own healthcare.

Let's use an analogy. When your car breaks down, you take it to a mechanic. They inspect it and give you an estimate. You then choose to either get it fixed, go to a different mechanic, or don't get it fixed. You make the decision, you pay for it, it's a simple process.

Healthcare is different. If you have a medical problem, you go to a doctor. Naturally, you want the best services possible, and your doctor wants to provide services to get paid. Your insurance company pays, which means they have to make the decision. But how do they know what you really need? How do they know that you can't go to a cheaper doctor? They try to minimize their own costs, and the resulting decision tends to be unsatisfactory for all parties.

Ever been in a car accident where an insurance company paid to get your car fixed? Doesn't it feel like you're getting screwed? That's what healthcare is like *all the time*.

Essentially, healthcare today is centrally planned, and central planning doesn't work. Right now, it's mostly private central planning. Soon it will be public central planning. It still won't work.

canadafag here, enjoy your socialism america

oh wait...

>>8015929

I didn't read this, because econofaggots don't know anything.

FACT: Moral hazard is a myth.

ANOTHER FACT: Central planning results in more efficient provision of many goods and services that we enjoy today, including, but not exclusively - water; roads; electricity.

>>8016015

>claims not to have read post
>unsupported assertions is response to specific points in post

wat

The reason why healthcare can't work the same as a mechanic is because of a massive difference in cost and manpower involved. It's like expecting to build a skyscraper the same way you would build a tree house.

When you get a routine problem with your car, you can probably pay for it out of pocket and a single worker can have the whole thing wrapped up in a day. A routine problem with the human body not only costs a lot more, but requires a sophisticated network of different people and machines to manage efficiently.

>>8015190
>life, liberty, property
keep telling yourself that buddy

>>8016164
1 nurse and 1 doctor can fix 1 sick person. there are so many other people involved because the system is so bloated.

>>8015929
pretty much this. the system after this bill is the same damn system, it's just propped up by government money and a few rules are changed around. most of these rule changes will probably make everything more expensive.

>>8016238
Watch out everyone, this troll is dedicated to his art

In the old system, if you had no insurance and got sick, then people who did have insurance paid for your care.

The Democrats want as many people as possible to pay into a centralized system so costs are lowered overall.

More litigation adds more bureaucracy and more unnecessary paperwork to an already bloated system.

Socialized medicine works in other countries because you walk into a hospital, fill out one form, get treated, and leave. When it's implemented in America, you fill out a stack of forms, wait 2 months for a team of workers to process the information, walk into the hospital, fill out more forms while hundreds of people in the billing department analyze and verify the information against a Federal registry, and when you're discharged you get even more paperwork that a team of government elected officials have to read and sign before everything is notarized. Meanwhile we have thousands of specialists who only exist because doctors are afraid of getting sued (an issue NOT solved by the new bill), further adding to the bloat. I will be laughing my ass off when the entire system collapses under the weight of its own bureaucracy in less than 2 years time.

>>8016352
I know you might be startled to hear this, but lawsuits exist in other countries besides the US.

When a company has to pay money to settle a suit, chances are because they were making money breaking the rules in the first place. People think they can get away with it, then when it turns out they can't they cry bitter tears and act like they're a victim.

>>8016496
Too be fair, the civil law system in the US is fucked beyond reason.

>>8016164

>>8015929, here. >>8016238 isn't me.

That's true, the scale is different. But there's no reason why such a system shouldn't scale. In fact, central planning is especially bad at managing complex networks of labor and resources.

>>8016496
medical malpractice suits arent anywhere near as bad as they are in america.

just wanna let you guys know I'm gonna exploit this system for all it's worth, If I have a headache, MRI time to checked for a brain tumor; a slight cough? need to get checked for respiratory diseases. If my wrists hurt because I'm on 4chan all the time, x-rays, arthritis prescriptions, hell I might even get surgery. Best part of all this, the insurance companies can do nothing to stop me, I can get 100k treatment on a 0.2k premium all because of all of you wonderful people. You med majors are going to LOVE people like me.

>>8013300
>"A lot of people said they just wanted a change"

>>8016744

Britfag here, the thing that puts people off doing this is the waiting times.

>>8013049
>>8013344
This is all really just an exercise in political warfare. The healthcare bill really does nothing good or bad

>>8013391
>>8013247
>>8013285

man you guys are idiots
that, gentlemen, is called very old copypasta.

If this is going to save money then why do you need to raise taxes to get it started? If and when it does save the system money, will taxes be lowered again?

People say that the current system sucks because people with health care are paying for others with none. But if taxes need to be raised, then why would anyone want this? Why would you want to have to pay more tax if you already pay for insurance?

If taxes will be increased for this, why would anyone want it? How much more tax do you guys want to pay?

How can it be good for the nation if most people have to pay more for it?

Do you americans think that someone else will foot the bill? Is this it? Why would anyone want to vote for something that increases taxes and gives no immediate benefit to yourselves?

>>8018409
No one thinks they will have to pay. They all think that the "wealthy" will have to pay more taxes.

>>8016744
Enjoy your copays and doctors telling you to fuck off when they see you're a hypochondriac.

>>8018179
americunts are stoopid. Remember this and it will make life much easier. Most are sheep who are blinded. They do little research to find the facts. The people in power will always abuse this