>Why bother working out when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?

Typical american retard who thinks obesity can be cured by a pill or an operation. Get fucked.

hahah, you thought no one from /fit/ would see this huh?

>Hurrr I can squat 2 plates, you guise are all shitty derp derp

Everyone knows you have to squat 315 to be allowed in the senate house, idiot.

You literally cannot get diabetes from eating candy. It's like you don't know anything about health (like most /fit/fags).

Hey look! More conjecture from somebody butthurt about their political philosophy not being forced on every person in America. The right and the left take turns every 8 years or so, and then have some sort of retarded amnesia every time. Parkinsons? Cancer? Huntingtons? Infections? Physical disabilities? These things often have nothing to do with choices, and I don't think these people should suffer because you think the people who choose to live damaging lives don't deserve help.

I wish everyone like you would kill themselves.

>>8006613
My 1RM is 305, yours?

Yeah the privatized healthcare industry was the only thing keeping America from a full blown obesity epidemic...

oh wait.

People will stay pay for health insurance under Obama's plan, you're just FORCED to buy it now.

Whoopee, universal healthcare.

Also, universal healthcare will probably lead to lower obesity: now that obese people are such a direct strain on the taxpayer, the guvmint can pass health-encouraging measures much easier. That is assuming those measures would be effective.

>>8006652
well duh no, but, after I went from being on my parent's dental plan to not having dental included on my new healthcare, I started flossing and brushing a lot more regularly, because I really don't want to have to pay for a cavity filling.

And yeah, thats a personal anecdote, but, I sure as hell started taking better care of my teeth when I lost dental, and people would take better care of their health if they had to pay for their healthcare.

The entire system of high-cost/low-deductible healthcare has that problem though, both public and private, so its not unique to the government, but, if health plans were all low cost, high deductible catastrophe coverage we'd probably be a much healthier nation.

My health insurance is going to go from great to shit because fat people cry themselves to sleep? Wonderful.

>>8006622
With pounds of candy yes you can.

Oh and Im not as much against disease that pretty much strike at random as I am against people who willingly put themselves in position where their health is compromised.

You know what /fit/ really hates? 350lb fat fucks who think their weight is completely genetic and that they have a thyroid problem. Uh hello bitch, maybe if you didn't guzzle 10 cokes a day and eat out at McDonalds uncontrollably you would not weight that much.

Thats who does not deserve to get healthcare because their problems are the expression of their free will.

fuck this unoriginal image shit, I remember r9k was really faggy but its got even faggier.

>Why bother working out when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?
So I can stay healthy myself and look and feel better.

>Why bother working when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?

Warran Buffett said it best: "I'd rather be on the paying end than the receiving end of welfare."

Copy pasta, posted earlier today.

>implying fatass, middle-class Americans are the ones who will be primarily benefitting from universal healthcare

OP, your argument makes complete sense. Seriously. I mean, before Obamacare when we had to pay for our own health care, everybody worked out and made sure they were healthy!

I mean look at those communist assholes in Europe with free health care. Their obesity rates are through the roof! We are much healthier than the rest of the world.

>>8006535
HAHA faggot! i WONT die, i WILL be ridiculously unhealthy, and you ARE going to foot the bill for it! enjoy working hard and doin ur squatz while i chug mountain dew and fap

>>8006837
The obesity crisis is getting as bad in europe as it is here.

We need a soda tax and to end HFCS subsidies.

But thats neither here nor there on healthcare.

>>8006847
drinking mountain dew is like chugging flavored simple syrup. Shit is waaaay too thick.

>>8006887
oh i fucking know! it tastes like shit and i can barely keep it down, but i force myself so that OP will be forced to pay for it in the end

>>8006869
Somebody watched King Corn.

>>8006837
Hahaha...enjoy your shit lifestyle.

>>juisdjanjdasnkjagdjsafasHfjkagjfaggfhgjfgfgkjfgj
>>8006535
get the fuck out.

>Why bother working out when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?
Because you don't want to get charged a larger income tax for being over weight.

>>8006977
haha, enjoy being an ignorant nigger

>>8006761
Diabetesfag here. No you can't you fucking moron. You can't GET Diabetes. If you have it, you've always had it -- it's fucking hereditary and lies dormant. THEN if you eat pounds of candy and ONLY then will you ACTIVATE your diabetes.

>ACTIVATE YOUR DIABETES

>>8006977
Man, enjoy your COMMUNISM.

Enjoy your OBAMACARE. Ever read the CONSTITUTION? You better read it before OSAMA, sorry I mean Obama, destroys every copy.

Everybody just wants handouts. You're all a bunch of sheeple. Turn on Fox and tune out.

>>8007058
10/10 because you had me going for a minute

>>8007049
Depends on whether you mean the childhood type of diabetes or adult type, they have different causes.

You may have child, but, most people with it have adult (including a few children nowadays with really bad parents).

>>8007058
Seriously. Promise a bunch of hand outs and hope you get people on your side re-elected.

What? Actually deliver on them in an efficient way? Fuck that he'll be out of office by the time that shit rolls around!

>After Obamacare bill is passed all America is going to see is just another explosion in healtcare costs now passed onto the government and an explosion in fat / disabled people.

That's what insurance companies WANT you to think, because they want want a tyrannical grip on the healthcare industry.

The government is going to offer a public option. You don't like private companies? Switch.

>>8007058
>Fox News

Because when you have more money, you can buy a bigger TV/House/Car/etc.

No one likes living in a shack with a shitty CRT and a clunker in the mud.

>>8007058
Thanks for the forward, Grandma.

>>8007151
Id rather have free for all fight inbetween insurance companies if they were allowed (or rather forced to) compete across state lines.

But no...lets safeguard insurance comp profits as much as possible and force everyone to buy health insurance.

>>8007173
Any time, honey.

>>8007151
>>8007152
>I watch NBC and take their word as truth.

>>8007185
Use capitalism to solve the problem?
LOOK ITS A EXTREME RIGHT WINGER WHO HATES OTHER PEOPLE.

>>8007244

I don't watch NBC.

But, I know that it's most likely more than a complete coincidence that all the countries rated "better to live in" than America have a social healthcare system that helps the needy and terminally ill who can't get private insurance.

> Fuck you, you don't deserve to live and I should not shoulder the burden of your healtcare cause you are a pathetic fat weak willed piece of shits who cant take care of themselves.

Damn straight. I salute your sentiments sir.

>>8007151
you mean the insurance companies that support this bill because they were bribed off with the mandate + no strong price controls so they get to fuck consumers? Just like the drug companies that were bribed off with no bargaining down medicine cost and no drug reimportation?

I'd like real healthcare reform that spend money efficiently to increase access and bring down costs. This puts in a tremendous amount of resources into corporate pockets so we can expand access only a little (while driving up costs and reducing efficiency. Then, when we get another chance to do real healthcare reform, people are going to point to the inevitable consequences of this disaster and claim that it can never be done well (it CAN be done well, as long as its done for people and not corporations).

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this bill being nothing more than making sure everyone can go to the doctor. I'm just curious where the money will come for to pay for the lazy Americans who don't want to contribute to the country? The fatties who will have their insulin payed for because it's free. What does this bill actually do anyhow? It can't just force Americans to have insurance, because many can't... is the rest of the working class (whom work hard for their money) going to be paying for the lazy?

Please help me understand this bill.

>>8007271
http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/traffic-accident-victim-dies-after-being-refused-ad
mission-by-14-hospitals
Oh boy I sure would love to have that system.

>>8006535
I squat more than you.
I live in a country with socialized medicine.
Your argument is invalid.

>>8007271
Where is your evidence that health is better in other countries? I'd like to see those figures...

>>8007279
Once again, what insurance companies have supported this?

Cite your references please... we don't need ignorant people posting.

>>8007276
Even if that iss what people believe deep down, the dems can't say that. They have to play up the "We just want to help everyone!" card to get re-elected.

>>8007262
You must have me confused with those Beckie/O'Reilly mindless idiots.

I like capitalism but I do not like unmoderated / unregulated capitalism. Ideally it would be nice to have an efficient government oversight over selfish entrepreneurial operations but that is not always possible. Basically capitalism with efficient and as uncorrupted as possible government oversight is best solution.

Oh and Im not all against higher taxes either. Pic related,

>>8007293
I don't understand where this poor = fat mentality came from. My family is on welfare because my dad was laid off last year. We're all pretty thin because we get $750 a month in food stamps. Asshole.

>>8007295
>Here is an example of a failure of socialized medicine.
>Socialized medicine is a failure.
>False conclusion.

>>8007114

Both types of Diabetes have genetic components.

Type 1 Diabetes, Insulin Dependent, or "Childens Diabetes" (The one I got, not the guy you responded to though) is actually less genetically linked than type 2 Diabetes. This comes to a shock to most people because type 2 is associated with fat people.

Well, as it turns out, type 1 is only 13% or so causally linked with genetics, otherwise its mostly related to a list of other odd and interesting things, such as living in finland, not drinking your mothers breast milk, and the temperature of the area you grew up in. Yes, all of these may cause type 1, yes, type 1 is really hard to fucking research, but I want to point this out because it shows how easy it is for people to make assumptions(that since type 1 appears randomly it MUST have some sort of recessive genetic component, which as current research is showing is only a small part of the story)

Type 2 is actually between 40 and 60% causally related to genetics, and they are currently attempting to create genetic tests to determine high risk people, in otherwords the people who will get type 2 the instant they go a little overweight(that does happen). People who seem to be at really high risk seem to be either native americans or blacks, two groups that are under heavy fire for being overweight. Type 2 will usually not present itself unless someone is overweight, but if you do not have the genetic sensitivity to getting the disease, then you probably wont get it.

what's the percentage of obese people in america compared to countries with socialized health care like canada, france and the netherlands? i don't know the statistic, but i'd bet a lot of money that it's significantly higher.

The United States was fine until War and Bailouts emerged... We don't need to reform health-care... it was never an issue, and ISN'T an issue.

Get out of every other country, and let them die and rot.

Quit bailing out companies, let them fail and destroy themselves.

>>8007352
I was joking. Anytime I bring up that the system could solve its own problems with a little less regulation, I get called a right winger, agitator, tea-bagger and other shit.

>>8007352
> uncorrupted government.

lololololololololololololol

>>8007325

I'll tell you what. Go to Google and search "Top 100 Countries Life Expectancy", or something along those lines. I'm positive nearly all of the countries listed about America have a social healthcare system. How about instead of me proving myself right, YOU prove ME wrong.

>>8007360
poor people (and stupid middle classers looking for a cheap thrill) are the only ones who visit McDonalds. Those are, by and large, some fat fucks.

>>8007352
Capitalism entails government corruption. The two are a priori inseparable.

>>8007325
The lobbying organization for the industry (rather than individual companies) is what threw their support behind it.

I don't know the name of the guy in charge of the insurance one, but, Billy Tauzin was the guy in charge of the pharma one (which was even more egregious) when the devil's deal between them and Obama was made (that deal is the reason the Dorgan amendment was killed, google it).

>>8007367
Sounds like someone want's Ron Paul's dick in their mouth...

>>8007391
>the only people who eat at macdonald's are poor
>poor people are all fat
>fat people all deserve to die

is this an accurate summary of your argument?

>>8007360
Same boat here.. but I also know (which most intelligent individuals know) that the higher tax's are, and the more we inflate our dollar, the shittier our country gets.

We need to look at history and what events have caused issues. Stop changing things that don't matter.

We need to fix our country, not make it worse.

If I wanted to live in Europe, I would move there. America exists (now, more likely existed) for people who wish to be free and make their own discussions.

What the hell happened to freedom? Why are you fucking our country over?

>>8007404
Government entails government corruption. Doesn't matter the economic system.

Study a little history.

>>8007423
Sounds like someone can't come up with anything better than an insult.

>>8007431
>their own discussions
I make my own discussions all the time.

talking points from both sides. yawn.

listen folks, they passed nearly the same legislation in my home state. guess where it is now? plowing right towards bankruptcy.

with the congress and the presidency under their control, i'll be amazed if the democratic party is still around 10 years from now.

not saying liberals or left leaning moderates will go away, but i'd bet 50/50 they'd need to reform under a new party name after the country goes bankrupt.

i'm really not complaining. america is strong, we got through the great depression n shit. don't mind liberals either, considering i live in the most liberal state in the nation. just don't agree with their policies.

yep i'm just going to be careful with my investments, and watch the news a lot over the next few years. hell i could be wrong.

i think this is really a time for all conservatives to quiet down and let the left gloat and tried their already failed experiment. take the high road, folks. hope some of yall out there are with me :\

>>8007385
The countries above America also tend to be ethnically homogenous with populations with good genetics for long life (i.e. east asia and nordic countries) and healthy diets/low obesity rates.

This does NOT describe america at all. It especially doesn't help that our minority populations have (relatively) large infant mortality rates which really drives down from-birth average life expectancy, but, for anyone old enough to read doesn't mean anything (the gap closes a good deal if you look at life expectancy for someone who has already hit a year old).

>>8007459
Yeah... I just realized I fucked up...

"decisions" is what I meant.

>>8007431
I wish it were that easy for all of us. I WOULD rather live in a Europe and get of this hellhole before the draft is reinstated to pay for the medical bill

>>8007447
Excessive concentration of power, whether in government or corporate hands, leads to corruption and nepotism in one form or the other.

>>8007465
make that 'try their failed experiment'*

don't want to be confusing tenses round here.

>>8006535
Protip: America is the fattest nation on Earth already. Every other country that has full government controlled healthcare has no fat-ass. Reality does not match your bullshit.

Hey guys, the health care bill passed the vote

>>8007466
this.

i love how in 2008 it was AMERICANS ARE SO FAT THAT EVEN WITH THE BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD THEY DROP LIKE FLIES HAHAHA

:\

>>8007385
What I had learned in school is that you must prove your point, not I. That's why when you go to Wikipedia or read an article, they cite their sources. You must prove yourself... until then, you're wrong.

Sorry... that's life.

>>8006535
Canada, and most of the civilized world, has universal health care and America still has more fat people. You make no sense.

>>8007385
>We should be like other countries
Do you know what this is? DO YOU? THIS. IS. AMERICA. We are NOT other countries. The reason America was founded is because people were sick of putting up with shit in other countries. Argue what you will, but here, we have a very different way of doing things. A mix of races, cultures, and well... everything. What works for a bundle of states in Europe doesn't work here. That is the core trait of The United States of America.

>>8007511
Europe is swiftly converging on american fatness levels, the third world is on their heels, and its leveling off here.

The real world simply doesn't bear out your assertion.

Now, you could argue that its america's fault because our terrible food/exercise culture is spreading through globalization and ruining everyone else's health (cause it is), but, it has nothing to do with our healthcare system.

sup NOMAD, you belong on /fit/

>>8007549
>implying we want crazy teabaggers there

>>8006721
Who in th past 5-10 years has a "low" deductible? Most policies sold today have 5-15k deductibles. that hasn't solved shit. Only a stupid American would think that the free market is the same as good medicine and a healthy lifestyle. Stop reading Ayn Rand.

I thought all these fags who argue about politics on the internet left after /new/ was made

>>8007529
the sad thing about this is it's true.

the other sad thing is currently about half our health spending is public, half is private. 25% of the total (public and private) is for treating the results of obesity. So if it wasn't for people not taking care of their bodies, we could have full universal healthcare for everyone simply by increasing our current government spending on healthcare by 50%

>>8007447
Capitalist labour relations are necessarily exploitative, and any government that upholds them places itself external to those whom it governs. This is related to the Social Contract idea of government, wherein individuals supposedly band together for the mutual benefits and protection each can offer one another.

Social Contract Theory has been the single most destructive idea in the history of mankind, and its influence is stronger than ever today. If a person cannot afford to "pay their way" they are diminishing the integrity of the contract. The socialist state is the so-called "nanny state" as if there was something wrong with maternal care. People don't band together for mutual advantage, otherwise eschewing others' company - they band together out of a pronounced DESIRE for company and attachment. People form societies in essence because they love one another and want to try to work together to improve the world and their circumstances. That these societies are taken advantage of by those who would abuse their trust is no argument against them, for the alternative is radical loneliness. Socialized medicine is an expression of love from one citizen to the next - and that's the way it should be.

Also, no one answered my question...

What does this bill do EXACTLY?

I'm not even sure how social it gets. I have one friend telling me that they're going full blown destroy all insurance companies crazy, and then another that they'll simply give everyone who can't afford insurance, insurance.

>>8007539

NO IT WASN'T, SILLY

STOP FLATTERING YOURSELF, YOU SILLY CHAUVINIST

>>8007542
sure, people are fat and unhealthy and it has nothing to do with lack of preventative medicine, regular check ups, and people budgeting their poor health or "saving" money by never going to the doctor until they have to be rushed to the emergency room. Sure that has absolutely nothing to do with our shoddy healthcare system and the culture it has created.

>>8007539
It's funny you use Captain America, a notoriously liberal comic. I'm pretty sure Cap would be for this (or at least a better) health care reform.

>>8007584

Your second friend isn't completely correct, but he's far more correct than your other friend, that much is certain.

>learn they're passing the health care bill
>become excited as i suffer from severe depression and have no insurance
>learn it will not go into effect until 2014
>will probably have killed myself by then
>figures lol

>Why bother working out when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?
Because I want to look good and be healthy, and it will take many years of getting fatter, greasier and more disgusting before I get in so much trouble I need healthcare.
>Why bother working when the government is going to cover you 100% in the end?
Because I dont want to be a fucking leech on society. Everyone with a good upbringing support themselves, dont blame socialism, blame bad parenting.

>>8007582
Someone doesn't understand how socialized programs get payed for. Everything cost something no matter where you are... and our government can't afford it. And I certainly don't want to be paying for any lazy ass wholes that jump on your band wagon and take advantage of your false-ideas.

>>8007584
lots and lots and lots of minor things, but main things are:

1) mandate to buy insurance (why I'm against the bill, forcing people to buy from an underregulated private company that can set their own prices and where in many regions there are local monopolies will end very badly)
2) Subsidizes for poor people (not big enough to compensate for (1) in my opinion, but, it can be argued)
3) bans consideration of pre-existing conditions
4) pretends to ban recision (but doesn't because it leaves an "except-for-fraud" loophole, and recision is exactly insurance companies looking for any tiny incident of fraud (forgot to report a bad cold 15 years ago? FRAUD) to drop people once they get sick)

>>8007582
>The socialist state is the so-called "nanny state" as if there was something wrong with maternal care
Because here, IN AMERICA, the is something wrong with it. We focus on self improvement and not relying on others. Wecelebrate the individual, not the group. Once we accomplish that, no one will need a nanny to constantly look over them (except in special cases)
>and that's the way it should be.
But thats the way it'll never be. Pull your head back into reality.

>>8007621
Most will take advantage of your little fantasy you have their. Enjoy thinking everyone will contribute. You'll get a nice slap of reality soon.

>>8007634
>ass wholes

i hate those

>>8007576
yknow im not against universal health care. i just recognize that it's more expensive.

we're fucking america, i think we could afford it. we just have some underlying costs that we need to fix (read: 200 million fat people)

as a good charitable republican i would love to provide the extra buck for the needy without healthcare in an instant. i just think the democrats are retarded for implementing something so blatantly costly at a time when we are trillions of dollars in debt, the economy is in shambles, and everyone is still fat.

yknow i think romney and massachusetts had a good idea with the health reform (which is basically what the democrats are doing now) and i think we all knew it was going to cost us more. im just really disappointed that massachusetts cant take the responsibility to cut taxes and spending on other things so our economy can be strong and we CAN afford this universal health care.

the same party running this state that failed us that is running this country. THAT is my problem.

i'm not american, i dont knw much about this or care, but news must be full of people raging and trollign

>>8007606
checkups and doctor visits magically make people lose weight.

A culture of eating too much, exercising too little, driving everywhere, and federal subsidies for corn and other ingredients of unhealthy processed food combined with a complete lack of support for growing healthy products is completely irrelevant!

Hallelujah I have seen the light!

ITT: FAT PEOPLE ARE RUINING AMERICA

>>8007603
This is exactly what I was talking about here.
>>8007368

>>8007678
Fat people ruining America? No.

Fat people ruining the hope for a healthcare system that is cheap and allows universal access at the same time? Yes.

>>8007634
Our government "can't afford it" because Bush started hugely expensive wars AND cut taxes at the same time. He cut taxes a little for the poor, a fuckton for the rich and practically looked the other way as a corporations and big business stopped paying taxes all together.
When you increase spending and cut "income" you get a deficit. This is classic backward Republican governance, where they complain how wasteful the government is and that they want to destroy it- so naturally they create a self fulfilling prophecy where they are so incompetent at their jobs they are wasteful and disrupt government.

>>8007720
but WHY fat people? why not dishonest people, that will take advantage of the system? why not sociopath teabaggers that spit on people dying of parkinson's because they have different political beliefs?

>>8007678
fat people aren't ruining america, fat people are just making health care more expensive

if america wants to be fat, let it be fat. but it needs to learn to do shit like cut taxes and spending to promote business growth, and turn its 40 hour workweek into 60 hour workweeks so we can export like motherfuckers so we can be rich and pay for not only all of our cheeseburgers but all of the health care costs associated with having 3 heart attacks before we turn 30.

yknow what i'm sayin?

the average american shouldn't even have to worry about paying 10k a year or whatever for health insurance because he should be a hardworking motherfucker.

america is -literally- trying to have its cake and eat it too

>>8007654
I live in Sweden, so I guess Im living in that fantasy right now?

What I think you have in the states is a mentality where people just give up, and when they give up they just dont care about anything so they parasite on society rather then contribute to it. Instead you could all help eachother, show solidarity and compassion towards eachother, sure there will be alot of people who exploit this but I think after a few generations of "socialism" everyone will be happier and everyone will want to make something out of themselves.

>>8007740
Do you guys read this shit off cue cards?

I can git my diabeetus medicashun fer free nao!

>>8007740
first off, i dont think even modern republicans think bush was a good president. we're pretty embarrassed about it really. but faced with al gore and john kerry....yeah i would have voted for bush if i were old enough. tbh i wish we could have elected clinton a third time. he was a tough motherfucker, we woulda had bin laden by christmas.

secondly, democrats voted for both wars, and as far as iraq, numerous other european and middle eastern countries including fucking egypt had the same faulty intelligence as us

>>8007745
What I don't understand is this logic that all poor people are fat and all fat people are lazy useless slobs who want "society to pay for their insulin"

>>8007784
>i would have voted for bush if i were old enough

just demonstrated everything wrong with the republican party

>>8007634
What I'm hearing from you is this:
-Socialized medicine is way too expensive! How can our heavily indebted government possibly pay for this?
-People will take advantage of socialized medicine by neglecting their health.

To your first point:
Your country already has some of the highest healthcare costs in THE WORLD. You and your countrymen pay more than just about anybody else does. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that this is because of the American system of privatized health insurance. Socialized healthcare would significantly reduce these costs, or, at least, has done so in every country in which it has been implemented, to my knowledge.

To your other point:
-You are already paying for these kinds of folks. Any person who buys insurance and then neglects their health costs the insurance company more money than that person's premiums represent. So, the insurance company loses money. Guess who picks up the slack?

This is ultimately not a debate about "DO people have a right to healthcare or DO they not?" It is a debate about "SHOULD people have a right to healthcare, or SHOULD they not?". The granting of rights is not a function of the essence of people as either having a right to healthcare or not having that right but rather about whether people should give each other that right. Just some thoughts for you.

guns don't kill people

you don't have to fucking tax soda/pop , learn self restraint

>>8007753
You can't just up and change a whole culture of people. America is about the individual. About bettering yourself so you don't have to leach off others. And making sure you're not leaching off others involves working and paying for whatever you need or want. No matter what laws and regulations the government forces down their throats, they'll never change from that core principle of doing things themselves. That, or like you said, they'll give up and just leach away.

>>8007774
THIS. THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. FUCK ALL OF YOU THAT THINK PEOPLE ON WELFARE = LAZY FAT BLACK WOMEN

>>8007753
mmmm that's what the rest of the world doesn't understand about america, is our culture.

yknow i got a friend in sweden, and the quasi-socialism there works out for him, but he's such a different person...

socialism relies on some sort of interior motivation. capitalism on exterior motivation. greed, basically. and that is who we are as americans.

is that a bad thing? maybe. but i like it.

>>8007741
because its a simple, empirical fact that 25% of our healthcare costs are the result of obesity; the other issues you're talking about simply don't have as large of an affect.

If dishonesty was causing 25% of our healthcare costs it would be the problem, but, its not; medicaul fraud, while a real problem, accounts for a very small proportion of healthcare costs. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't address it, cause we should, but, doing so won't put a significant dent in healthcare costs.

The 3 big ones are, in order,
1) obesity
2) excessive end-of-life care (but good luck ever tackling this one politically)
3) defensive medicine (why tort reform is important: its not the lawsuits that are the problem, its the tons of unnecessary procedures doctors do because they're afraid of lawsuits)

Fraud is simply on a much smaller scale.

>>8007795
And the Republicans say the Democrat voter base is a bunch of young hipsters.

Same shit different color.

>>8007658
We pay twice as much to do half as much with medicine in America. Why would it be more expensive to do things the way the rest of the world handles just fine?

Looks like America took one step further away from being a 3rd world country. Universal healthcare is like having sanitation.

Welcome America to a new way of life!

>>8007795
im all for saving the environment; i drive a honda and i recycle, but al gore is a fucking nut.

kerry campaigned on that he would have done a better job in iraq. when kerry came back from vietnam, he compared american soldiers to the huns of genghis khan. i'm from mass and that guy seriously scares me being in government period.

that said i would have voted for someone like howard dean over bush. he's a good guy. don't agree with all of his policies but he's got his heart in the right place.

>>8007837
So you're right to health care should depend on your BMI? And what about those pesky "end of life" expenses? Why not start euthanizing people before it becomes a problem!

>>8007677
working with a doctor on a regular basis to improve your health makes a difference. you're american, you go to a doctor once every 10 years- so you wouldn't fucking understand.

>>8007814
you could make the same argument about tobacco, but, taxes do a hell of a job in getting/helping people to make the responsible decision.

I'm a thin, in-shape nonsmoker (presumably like you), but, not everyone has that much willpower, and you can't realistically expect that of people (but good for you if you do). Taxes can help those who don't.

>>8007816
>the government forces down their throats
>fox news is fair and balanced

>>8007878
I haven't seen a doctor since I was maybe 12. God Bless America.

>>8007882
you dont know many smokers do you.

>>8007784
oh petty justification. and underage b&.

>>8007887
>He used a common phrase to describe making someone take something they don't want. Must be a hard core fox watcher.
>This was Andrea Mitchel with NBC news.

>>8007816
Because any relation between two people that is not obviously mutually beneficial must be leeching. In other words, there is absolutely no reason for people to help each other unless one is paying the other back.

America: fuck love.

>>8007916
>implying liberals watch anything but the daily show and the colbert report

>>8007900
i think the last time i saw one i was...16? 17?

when i get sick i tough it out. and unlike r9k i run and work out regularly, dont ever drink alcohol or soda, hell all i drink is tomato juice and water, no junk food ever, no fast food, dont smoke, dont do anything detrimental to my health

however i recognize that the rest of america is not like this. this is why i dont want to be lumped in with them :(

>the America I am going to defend is just going become pathetic, weak, fat and even more retarded then before.

America has always been full of pathetic, weak, fat, and retarded people, and they would have increased whether or not the health care bill passed.

>>8007911
bush's second election was in 2004. i was 17. fucking dumbass.

>>8007875
Hey, I never said those were good policy methods to deal with the problems. YOU came to that conclusion.

Obesity can be combated somewhat by improved public health measures (giving schoolchildren health meals and not "agricultural surplus"; taxing soda; not subsidizing corn; making restaurants post calories; returning home-ec classes to schools to teach kids how to cook cheap, easy, healthy food if their parents fail to do so, etc. etc.). End-of-life overspending can't really be dealt with (for exactly the reasons you touched on). Defensive medicine can be solved via tort reform (just because the republicans support it doesn't make it a bad idea).

>>8007816
>Oh hai, I'm a teenager who read part of an Ayn Rand novel recently. Go individualism and puberty! One day I'll get a job and be the richest person in the world because I'm an individualist and a genius! Atlas Shrugged told me so!

>>8007921
>Because any relation between two people that is not obviously mutually beneficial must be leeching
When the fuck did he say that?
>there is absolutely no reason for people to help each other unless one is paying the other back.
Unless, you know, you just plain want to. Go look who contributes the most to charity.

>>8007927
You could be the healthiest motherfucker on the planet, but if you get into a serious car accident ain't no tomato juice gonna protect you from 2 tons of steel hurtling toward your face at 60 mph, and ain't no jogging regimen gonna fix up your internal bleeding, multiple fractures, lacerations and brain damage. Neither are American-style insurance companies.

>>8007916
>>8007923
Haha yea, I do get my "news" from the states from Jon Stewart and co. To be fair, I watch it because its comedy and I know its heavily baised.

But to be honest, seems like you dont have an completly objective news channel over there or have I missed something? Also Im not liberal, Im a socialist (oh no he di'int)

>>8007959
i agree with that guy and i think ayn rand was a fucking retard.

not saying the right is perfect, but you don't the left look any better by going FOX NEWS FOX NEWS FOX NEWS oh that doesnt work AYN RAND AYN RAND AYN RAND

shit i have never heard of ayn rand ANYwhere outside of 4chan, and something like what, 1% of americans watch fox news? it's a big country full of people who just don't give a fuck.

>>8007901
Wrong.

I know several smokers, and I also know several people that developed a moderate smoking habit but quit it because they couldn't afford the cash.

If you're rich the taxes don't make a difference, or if you've smoked for 20 years and have the habit burned in, but, for most people smoking is really fucking expensive, and lots of people who are only a year or two in end up quitting because their habit expands beyond their ability to pay for it.

haha america is furious because it has to care for its citizens now

>>8007959
AGAIN
>>8007368
I'm 22 and have never read an Ayn Rand book. I have my own ideas. Doing shit myself and not worrying about getting help from others has worked pretty well so far.

>>8007950
I actually believe that, unless you have a thyroid problem or something, using BMI to determine eligibility is a good solution.

>>8008002
i'm fully insured. just, like i said, i don't want to be pooled in with the fat people.

>>8007950

Agree with everything but taxing soda because it would be pointless unless it was a huge fucking tax.

FUCK YES TORT REFORM!

>>8007967
The modern charitable institution is one of capitalism's dirties tricks. It obfuscates the structural deficit of the system by allowing people to believe they're helping others all the while they're knowingly harming them.

>>8006535
you made ANOTHER one of these?

>>8008037
Now I'm convinced you're just a troll.
Should have known from the tripcode.

>>8008017
Good for you, that you can carry yourself and make something out of yourself by your own. But whats stops you from helping others, less fortunate?

>>8007921
You don't "get" the American right/center-right.

Most folks who hate government entitlements give to charity. The opposition is based on not liking/having control of where the money will go and the fact that its coercion (taxes for redistribution (as opposed to public services/goods, which are perfectly cool to tax for) are basically theft).

>>8007927
so you're magically immune to disease and cancer forever?

>>8008075
Nothing at all. I never said I don't go out of my way sometimes to help someone else, or give a little here and there. The great thing about not needed to depend on anyone is that you can help people who do depend on others.

But if more people were self-reliant, we wouldn't need this whole health care thing.

>>8008022
Fat people are our friends, family members, lovers, co-workers, teachers and fellow citizens. They need help just like anyone else, and our culture never misses a chance to let them know exactly how disgusting they should perceive themselves as. This is no argument against socialized medicine.

>>8007740
... over time our economy would drop with socialized medicine, bush or not. Bush and Obama just through it into overdrive.

>>8007753
It simply does not work that way. Sweden's government-foundational issues are far worse than Americas. What happened is we let social mentality into our system, thus weakening it.

Also, if I wanted to live in Sweden, I'd move there...

>>8007784
This man is right... listen to him.

>>8007787
Not all... most.

>>8007796
Costs aren't increased because of someone else... the other person is dropped because they don't pay their insurance. Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

>>8007860
This is why we need to tell others who want to be like other countries to MOVE to other countries.

>>8008078
>Most folks who hate government entitlements give to charity
>Most folks
>give to charity

Woa woa woa, slow down there sailor

>>8008078
that shit is tax-deductible too. and you know how much republicans love taxes (see: south dakota)

>>8008116
In america, being religious is strongly statistically correlated with both being politically right wing and giving lots of money to charity (as a result, being politically right wing and giving lots of money to charity are also correlated, regardless of the causation, which is probably religion and not politics).

>>8008110
I might not, your system is incredibly arcane, but I have had this argument explained to me by people whom I regard as much more credible sources than yourself.

People who express longing for the institutions of other countries love America much more than you do. They would change America for the better before they left it, while you would rather it stay the same fucked-up way it always has been.

>>8008109
i dont really care. i encourage my fatass friends to eat more vegetables n shit, but i'm not paying for their irresponsibility. if they want to be fat, they can work and get insurance and get their own pool.

>>8008103
I see your point. And the point is that you dont trust another person to handle your "charity" or whatever you should call it. But the arguement could be turned towards my position aswell
>If more people helped out eachother we wouldnt need a goverment that mandates society for us

So I think it boils down to trust, and I for one would like to believe that a country like the US have genuinly good intentions to help their citizens (inb4 9/11 was an inside job)

>>8008116
Cutting out part of his sentence subject to change the meaning is pretty stupid.

>>8008178
You must be a very lonely man.

911 was an outside boj

>>8008161
Sorry man, but you going to have to give me some proof that "most right wingers" give to charity.

Ok so you mean the white, christian, middle-to-upper class suburbaniates? Maybe, just maybe I will believe you there, but even then its a stretch.

>>8008184
You're right. The government or any charity has never given me a good reason or example that they can handle me tossing money at them and hoping for the best.

I guess I'm just one of those "If you don't do it yourself it isn't worth doing at all" guys

So when are we getting this healthcare?? 2014?? What kind of shit is that??

>>8008161
yknow i think christians are kinda dumb...especially protestants and republicans tend to be protestants...but i don't understand this whole republican=evil thing. when my dad left us, it was our deeply christian friends that let us stay with them til we could get a new place. liberals would just bitch that the rich should be taxed to pay for an apartment for us.

yknow what really ticks me off? more than any macro issue in this country? is the way democrats treat black people. like they need their help to get off their feet and into the world, like they can't do it themselves. and they get into this welfare/poverty cycle that turns them into an enslaved voting block.

not saying democrats are evil either, but it disgusts me inside. i can't explain it.

>>8008169
no... I guess I should have a trip code...

I want to reverse many of the social changes that fucked up our country. We need to destroy our current foreign policy of policing the world (and just let them dick each other up), build our own national defense so when shit hits the fan we're fine, and remove all legislation and constitutional rights that DOES NOT preserve the Americans freedom.

And that does not mean reenact slavery and remove woman's rights... those amendments protect the rights of minorities and women, thus would fall in line with what America is suppose to be about.

>>8008227
white, christian, middle class subarbanites pretty much ARE the American republican party/right wing.

And to be honest, I haven't seen information on absolute giving to charity: it would have been much more accurate to say that they give to charity much more often than other people do, relatively (which may or may not be an absolute number over 50%, don't know). Sorry for the confusion on that.

>>8008059
I learned from the best. "Charity degrades those who receive it and hardens those who dispense it".

>>8008263
>generalize an entire group of people based on your kind neighbours

good job bro

I never sympathized with black people until I saw that clip of that senate member getting spit on and called "nigger" by the tea-baggers

Now we have a common enemy.

>>8008263
Exactly. I'm surprised most minorities don't find it disrespectful that our government thinks they need help because of their skin color... isn't that racist?

>>8008251
Never.

Populist rage against the bailouts+economy combined with a "vote-for-us-so-we-can-stop-this-monsteroues-healthcare-plan-from-going-into-effect" will sweep the republicans back into power in both the congress and presidency by 2012 bar Obama pulling an economic recovery out of his proverbial hat before the 2010 midterms.

Hi OP, Canadafag here.

You're a moron, as reflected in your arguments.

Why learn anything in school when I can go to a library for free?

But anyways, if what remains of America is able to pass the bill, then I suppose I will be a bit depressed. My favorite episodes of House were always the ones where they turned away patient after dying suffering patient because they didn't have insurance.

>>8008268
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

Get rid of religion, get rid of suffering. The left generally views religion as evil, as a crutch for those suffering.

I'll let you guess what book that came from.

>>8008276
yes, am white here, but agnostic and not exactly middle class... try lower... a lot lower.

I'm just not an idiot who lets my current situation get in the way of what is best for our country. It's amazing how many people are selfish. Socialized Medicine IS selfish. Stealing others money to pay for your own issues.

i just did a VERY quick googling and the first thing i found was this

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2005/11/generosity_inde.html

yknow i love this chart i really freakin do. having grown up in massachusetts and rhode island, it doesnt surprise me at all.

i love how the poorest state is the most generous state. (most religious state, too)

>>8008317
this is such a bullshit argument. are you even allowed to be on 4chan?

>>8008336
"To be an aristocrat today, you have to be a communist."

>>8008333
hmm... in Florida we aren't allowed to turn away anyone in need of emergency... sounds like you're a fat lazy Canadian who watches too much TV.

>>8008354
>Socialized Medicine IS selfish. Stealing others money to pay for your own issues

Trollface.jpg

Atleast I hope you are a troll because someone couldnt possibly be that ignorant.

>>8008317
i do find it racist. if i ever become politcally active, im going to make sure to campaign for racial minorities. i really don't see race, life isn't a 'race'. i see income-groups.

>>8008078
giving money to a church once a week so that a fat bastard pastor can pay for the air conditioning at a mega church and his fleet of gay prostitutes and meth habit isn't "charity".

>>8008354
Are you implying that you won't see any benefits from socialized medicine?

>>8008354
>Stealing others money to pay for your own issues.
sounds more like current american healthcare system, yankee scum

Why is it that countries with superior national healthcare are generally less fat?

>>8008357
>"most generous" states are Red States that voted for President Bush
>"least generous" states are Blue States that voted for Senator Kerry

get the fuck out of here

>>8008393
income groups based on... institutionalised racism?

>>8008384
Stealing my tax dollars to pay for your own issues?

That is selfish... but it's nice to know you're just declaring me a troll, and not putting out a serious counter.

>>8008377
... and then comes the bill in the mail

>>8008393
To be colour-blind is to avoid having to love your neighbour. How can you love your neighbour if you can't even see what colour he is? To love him in spite of and because of his colour is what it means to really love him.

>>8008397
Florida is as far south as you can get there buddy...

>>8008377
>anyone in need of emergency
>in need of emergency

I rest my case.

>>8008408
Look it up yourself

>>8008400
"superior" is a value judgement.

countries with more socialized healthcare systems are generally less fat because they're not america: america is the only major rich country that's half/half private/government and we're also very fat for unrelated reasons (so agri-corporation, we'll give you this bag of cash to grow corn for sweeteners on your land cool brah? ---> fat people)

>>8008451
>Showing that the right secretly thinks in terms of socialist discourse re: people "needing" care.
>Classic dialectic move.

>>8008421
Yeah. Good thing you have insurance right?
Wait, you don't?
Too expensive?
Stuck with shitty high rates because companies aren't allowed to compete with each other?
What, release regulations and add incentives for price lowering competition? NO, SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE IS THE ANSWER.

>>8008419
Ok Ill bite

Lets say you dont own a car, the goverment steals monery from you to pay for road maintenance.

Trollfaceindeed.jpg

don't want to pay more taxes for socialized medicine? more to new hampshire or some shit with all the money you saved up by not paying taxes for socialized medicine

>>8008394
i aint christian and im broke as shit, but my mother is though, shes rollin on dough, shes pretty christian, and shes always givin to the poor black ladies at her work (she runs a nursing home) giving them my old clothes n shit for their kids, and canned food n shit so they cant eat and not just spend it away. she dont hate welfare either she just dont like how people can sit on it forever.

like i said i aint no fuckin christian but im startin to see the light of generosity.

i read bout locke n hobbes in high school. i think hobbes is the left and locke is the right...and shit hobbes has such a distrusting view on humanity...man i gotta question why the far far FAR left even bothers with living some times...

>>8008467
>i love a capitalism!!!

>>8008421
Sure.

And if you don't have insurance and its greater than your total net worth you go bankrupt. but what does not happen is being denied care: walk into any public hospital in America with a disease and they'll treat you whether or not you can pay.

People go bankrupt because they can't afford care, but they don't die over it.

>>8008467
So you would rather be exploited by sociopathic strangers (corporations) than your elected representatives? SOUNDS FISHY.

>>8008161
see
>>8008394

>>8008377
You're a dumb cunt. Emergency medicine is not the same as "healthcare". You need chemo for your cancer? Organ transplant? medicine for a chronic condition? you aren't going to find it at an emergency room.

>>8008430
i dont love people because i can see past their faults...and shit dude it sounds like you're saying having a skin color is a fault

i care for other people because they're fucking people. they're a fucking human being. you have issues, man.

>>8008468
That's the state, and I would not argue you in that sense. I agree with you. We should only tax people whom have cars to fix the roads.

OH MY GAWD IT'S THE END OF AMERICA!!!!!

>>8008480
The far left? We are passionate, but few in number. We do not share any views with Hobbes. L2Communism.

>>8008488
you are hilarious bro

>>8008468
Even if you don't drive the indirect economic effects of transit spending are going to be worth what you pay for them in taxes.

I don't know if you could have possibly chosen a worse example for the point you're trying to make (except for maybe fire or police departments).

Look, you, like many liberals, have this false misconception that conservatives dislike government spending and services in general: thats wrong. People like infrastructure, they like police, they like public education, they like fire departments, they like parks, etc. The entirety of fiscal conservatism is pretty much a nearly century-long backlash against the new deal/entitlement.

>>8008521
Now that in my eyes, constitute as selfish. So you cant use the buss then? Never take a cab? In a society everyone helps eachother and as I said before having universal healthcare is like having sanitation, fucking basic living attributes.

>>8008534
thats the thing....i dont think modern day communists look to marx and engels...i think they look to hobbes....

>>8008505
YOU should see >>8008480

>>8008521
how about everyone reads Ayn Rand. Then everyone works hard, invents their own cars, and hires crews to build their own private roads that only they can drive on. No more taxes. Ron Paul 2012!

>>8008491
Then you don't pay the "psychopathic strangers" . you look around and find out who's best to go with. And yes, I'd rather be exploited by people who I can take action against rather than the the government.

>>8008505
Once you go to the emergency room and the doctors decide you need it the hospital will hook you up (but IF you have any money you gotta pay what you can, but, even if you can't you'll still get treated).

True story bro.

>>8008505
Then we should have low payment plans for someone with cancer or has a condition.

For private insurance to lower the bills in order to not destroy someones right to live.

You should pay for it, but it doesn't mean you need to pay a fuckload all at once.

Punish the insurance companies, not Americans.

>>8008551
I don't think anyone thinks conservatives don't approve of the government spending money. They just don't approve of spending it on poor (or apparently fat) people.

>>8008510
People aren't "just people" they're a complex assemblage of inherited and socially-constructed traits and personal choices that sometimes make them uncomfortable to be around. To "see past" such things is to "see past" the human being. It's okay to admit that someone else's skin colour makes you uncomfortable, but it's important afterward to ask yourself why. If you ignore your discomfort, you'll never most beyond it. To deny you have any is to deny that other people are different from you, and that's absurd.

>>8008488
they don't die the first time around. They go bankrupt, then they can't every go back to the doctor again. America!

>>8008561
Where does that logic end?

Would it be "selfish" to oppose the bill to raise taxes so that everyone would be given a free car?

>>8008572
I don't think you read the work of modern communists, like, at all.

>>8008551
thisthisthisthisthis

we like giving people tools to better themselves.

we also believe health care is a right. that's why we're strong supporters of medicare and medicaid for the old and the disabled.

life is a right. financial security isn't. that's your problem.

>>8008561
You pay for cabs and buss's (unless the city provides them).

So your tax's are covered there. Enjoy your contribution.

>>8008596
>implying black people actually make people uncomfortable just by being black

you've been on 4chan a while, eh?

>>8008589

Nominally, they say they're against government spending; or I guess, more accurately they're against the government taking money, which is then supposed to be echoed in it spending less, but in reality it's tax less, spend more.

>>8008597
Wrong.

Go to hospital ---> get treated, even if you have no money or insurance. It's how it works.

(It's also why most public hospitals struggle really badly to break even on overall operations)

>>8008608
Sure it would, if people ever were to decide that they all deserved a car and were going to help each other pay for each to have a car, and you thought that you shouldn't have to pay, but still wanted a car, you would be a selfish person. If you genuinely didn't want a car, you might have reason to argue that people should pay for their own cars. It seems pretty ridiculous to argue that you really don't want healthcare, though.

>>8008582
the only reason this shit passed is because the democrats managed to go an entire year without mentioning a peep of this.

>>8008589
if you only count WHITE people since rich white liberals like to turn minorities into poor liberals dependent on welfare....conservatives are definitely fatter and poorer. it's called taking the high road bro.

>>8007873
I don't understand your complaint...Considering that some of the American soldiers in Vietnam definitely didn't want to be there, were abusing drugs and raping the locals, to at least some of the American soldiers during that conflict comparing them to Huns isn't too far off.

I wouldn't know if the label would apply to all or even a significant portion of the soldiers then, perhaps Kerry's experience with his fellow soldiers was unusual.

Your taxes are going towards fat niggers who got heart attacks after eating ten whoppers and require emergency bypasses.

It's much cheaper to tell a nigger with high cholesterol to take some aspirin and statins.
This is called preventative care, and it's much cheaper.

As much as I despise fat niggers, they aren't the root of our social problems. Healthcare should be ubiquitous and not only for the greedy capitalist fags.

Conservatives are opposed goverment spending
>spend trillions of dollars on two wars

DERP DERP

>>8008596
....yeah you've got a problem dude

black people hook me UP

food, parties, women, and i dont smoke but if you need weed, who do you go to? thats right, a black guy, they know whats up.

>>8008622
Sure they do, just ask a black person about it. Their experience of race and white privilege is very different from the experience of white people. This is a bit long, but very edifying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVl8QFhnadY

>>8008597

It is illegal to deny someone health-care. State hospitals treat everybody. I should know, my dad works in a state emergency room.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>8008582
wrong, they stabilize you and drop you off on some street corner so you don't take up hospital beds on their dime. You don't get chemo or a kidney transplant from an emergency room. You don't receive full treatment or long term care from an emergency room. That makes emergency rooms less capable of handling "emergencies". It's bad for hospitals, doctors, nurses, patients and it's extremely expensive to do it your stupid fucking way. People need access to family doctors, and shouldn't be going when they are on the brink of death only.

>>8008626
I had an accident that resulted in me having to go to the hospital in an ambulance. I'm on welfare. I got a $300 for the ambulance. What the fuck were my alternatives? I can't pay for this shit. God damn it.

>>8008680
i dont think kerry was a buy guy, just the wrong guy to head a major military campaign.

>>8008583
So. . . We need a healthcare reform bill passed by our government that includes health insurance reform? Cool story bro. You should tell people about this idea, it might catch on.

>>8008694
That's not conservative... that's... well, I dunno. That's something Bush created.

According to our founding fathers, we weren't meant to go looking for trouble.

>>8008713
But if it turned out you were completely unable to pay for the ambulance, you still would have gotten it and your treatment.

It's expected, and should be expected, that you pay what portion you can though.

right to life but not financial security guy said it better than I could.

Call me racist, but you can usually tell pretty quickly who's a black person and who's a nigger.

Niggers have stolen shit from me and are always trying to bum money and rides. No, I'm not opposed to giving anyone rides, but after shit went missing from my car, I stopped.

>>8008742
That same founding logic is what allows the administration to pursue "preventative warfare". If America's military is to be used only for defense, and another country does not now, but will soon (ostensibly) pose a threat, it can be justifiable invaded.

>>8008763
Okay: you are a racist.

>>8008608
here's how the logic actually works. You don't need a car to survive. You DO need your health to survive.

>>8008467
Can you name some of the regulations to be done away with?

>>8008738
I'm saying we don't need it. We just need to force insurance companies to lower payment plans to a reasonable value for Americans. That does nothing more but prevent Insurance Companies from taking advantage of an American. Actually, it doesn't even cost anyone money... just preserves your freedom.

>>8008742
Yea well, all I heard from the conservatives when Bush waged "his" two wars was "AMERICA FUCK YEA"

So, whats the deal there chap

>>8008792
Nobody could. The system is so complex as to require constant digestion by teams of fantastically-educated people and their computers to be understood, if cable news is to be trusted.

>>8008742
bush. conservative. heh. read >>8007784

lol the only ailments are obesity, diabetes, and tooth decay now?

>>8008792
Namely, allowing people to buy across state lines.
I live in Ohio. The fact I can't buy health insurance that costs half as much in Pennsylvania really hurts my pricing. If people could, it would force Ohio to lower costs to keep customers.

>>8008770
True... can't argue that.

I do however think that if the founding fathers were alive today, they would be apposed to the idea of war. We can do the same (and better) if we took that money to create national defense... that way we can save lives and not be afraid of anyone.

Also, if you pull out of other countries... the people in those countries tend to hate you a lot less.

>>8008837
No, but they're the most common, and thus easiest to trot out and put on display to try and get your point across.

>>8008792
I have one...

Americans should be allowed to use open currency. Such as buying with gold, silver, etc. Not just monopoly money. We'd boost the hell out of our economy (and save our own currency-value) if we were allowed to use real currency as apposed to paper... the same paper that gets inflated when printed for bailouts.

>>8008898
Pretty sure you can buy things with gold and silver. Good luck getting change for an ounce of gold though.

>>8008898
you are allowed to buy things with gold, it's called barter.

>>8008794
uh, how do you force an insurance company to lower rates without making new regulation by writing a bill, passing it and making new law ala WHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY DOING? you are so fucking stupid.

>>8008770
the thing is iraq wasn't really much of a threat. north korea was setting off nukes n shit at the time...

preventive strikes can be justified i suppose, but iraq simply wasn't.

that said, had we had clinton for a third term, he hated saddam so much he probably would have invaded in 2001, just because of the logistics of afghanisntan being near iraq.

>>8008898
We had that, and it worked fine!
And then Nixon took it away.

>>8008898
Protip: There isn't enough gold, silver, rhodium, platinum in the world to equal the amount of "money" that exists. Hell there isn't even enough resources to print all that fiat digital bullshit. Goodluck on that one dipshit.

>>8008927
By making them in direct competition with other companies who are offering lower rates.
See >>8008852

>>8008916
>>8008923
Using gold as currency has been band... I'll find it, let me deal with below first...

>>8008927
That would be a bill that needs to be passed... it just doesn't force my tax dollars to pay for someone else. Thus, fixing the issue and not changing my way of life. Dumbass.

>>8008962
you'd still need a law. You are completely fucking stupid.

>>8008970
But the law going into effect is not the one we want.
nurr ur dum

>>8008970

Yes, a law that REMOVES THE OLD LAWS

Stupid cunt of course you need a law to do that.

You're too stupid to talk to I'm done here.

>>8008927
yknow its a great idea and all, morally, i suppose. but the fact that insurance CAN do these things is what keeps it cheap. all of these sick people not being allowed to be discriminated against anymore is going to raise everyone's premiums. this bill is going to be really interesting to watch.

>>8008933
pretty much. it was a really knee-jerk reaction, looking back on history. oh noes a few countries were dropping gold well thats the fucking system we set up, asshole, its not like we wouldnt have stayed the dominant world currency.

goddamn i really hated nixon. i have no idea why people think he was a good president. he started the trend of republicans getting into war, since he ramped up vietnam years before he got us out of it :\

>>8008927
In theory this could happen.

but since you mentioned the bill that just passed, why are you talking about regulating insurance prices? It is allowing them to rocket by making a mandate so you have to but them, not getting them down.

A bill that reduced instead of increasing healthcare/insurance costs would be awesome. It's sad that instead we're getting one that will increase costs instead.

This copy-pasta gets old.

This is what, the fourth time this has been posted with extremely minor variations to it? When you fuck up due to trying to post this without enough different, how long do you get muted for?

Talking about the gold standard doesn't seem very germane.

>>8009031
This topic has been all fucking over the place. At its base, this whole health care takeover/reform thing is about making or breaking the economy.

inb4 someone calls me a right winger for using "takeover". I'm just trying to present both sides here.

>>8008963
Glen Beck isn't a news source. Read about the fucking bill already.

>>8008486

You say that like it's some kind of bad thing.

>>8008818
Well, I guess we've reached a conclusion without evidence then. You don't have a knowledge of the legislation and regulations, but fortunately the system is "too complex", so we can stop thinking and leave it to the experts right?

I do think that legislation works for the benefit of the companies and not to improve competition. But until I see someone explaining how the existing legislation is tying down competition rather than the situation we have being the natural development of the market, I'm going to demand some empirical proof of the assertion that deregulation is going to drastically improve prices.

>>8008981
THE CURRENT BILL ALLOWS PEOPLE TO BUY ACROSS STATE LINES. THE CURRENT BILL SETS UP A HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE SO THERE WILL BE COMPETITION. WE WILL GET THE SAME QUALITY HEALTH INSURANCE AND CHOICES THAT CONGRESS GETS. FUCK YOU PEOPLE ARE STUPID!

i forgot by now....can we buy insurance across state lines yet?

>>8009014
there is nothing in the bill that increases costs. stop watching fox news.

>>8009095
oh. well thats nice. too bad every state around me has more expensive insurance.

on the bright side its good for the whole of the country (fuck at least they did one thing right in that bill)

>>8009095
Now if only just that part of the bill got passed and the rest of the shit got cut out.

>>8009119
Medical costs? No.

Insurance costs? Do you HONESTLY believe the insurance companies (if you havent tried to buy insurance before, theres very little competition/choice in most areas) won't take advantage of the mandates to jack up prices by a fuckton?

>>8009124
there are so many conservative talking points (lies) about the bill that people know more about the lies than reality. It's amazing how many times people say "What we need do to is this, too bad the current healthcare bill doesn't" when in reality THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK THEY ARE DOING!

>>8009023
2 min at most for posting "Unoriginal Image". Don't worry I am not going to repost anytime soon because I am going to wait and see what is in this new 2k page hc bill first.

Two I am somewhat disgusted by my own post anyways, it is very antagonistic, bullish and hostile. Partially because I just got back from the gym and all pumped up raged at hearing the hc bill nearing passing. Nothing against fat people really, I just dislike people who give up and fail to help themselves instead choosing to rely on someone else for their caretaking.

A group of people who think they know how to care for others, and passes multiple laws and taxes.

Another group that doesn't want forced laws and taxes, and wishes not to be told how to act by the government.

Haven't we had this happen twice already?

>>8006535
itt we get trolled by a wannabe republican army sucker

>>8009119
im not that guy, but im sick of this shit "fox news fox news fox news" yknow im against this healthcare bill and i watch msnbc. why? because they have good coverage. just shut the fuck up about it already.

i swear if fox news disbanded today, you people would be chanting "wah wah fox news" next fucking year. it's not a legitimate point it's a fucking meme.

and shit im against this bill because i work as a cna and the contents of this bill seem like the bad parts would increase costs more than the good parts would decrease them. common sense. shit i dont even have cable (torrents fuck yeah)

but seriously, i am sick of this bullshit. its not cute it just makes you look like a fucking sheep. "bah bah bah fox news bah bah bah"

i bet more liberals than conservatives watch fox by now because they know more about it than i do. literally. i know who oreilly is, and i know -who- hannity and beck are but i dont know what kind of show they do and i dont even know what they look like. and you people wont shut the fuck up about them. i havent heard one conservative ever cite them EVER.

fuck im just rambling by now but you just reach a boiling point sometimes yknow?

>>8009145
they need to get rid of "pre-existing conditions" and give more consumer protection. People need more than "more competition in the market" you fucktard. The whole system is corrupt and broken in a fundamental way. There is no Randian solution to this. It needs new and extensive law to fix all of the huge fucking holes.
Another plus to this bill? If you pay your premiums, your health insurance provider MUST pay. They cannot pussy out like they do now as soon as you start eating into their gold plated yacht fleet fund.

>>8009151
there is regulation of prices in the bill and competition. for example they will HAVE to spend 85% of every dollar on healthcare. No more tropical islands while you die of cancer.

>>8009192
Then stop bringing up Fox News talking points, you shit.

>>8009259
If he doesn't watch Fox News, how would he know what Fox News talking points are?

>>8009209
they can still pussy out because they pussy out now by pretending people committed fraud, and to get the insurance industry supporting him Obama and the democrats added a loophole forbidding recision EXCEPT FOR FRAUD (which is the excuse they use for it today).

Thats what makes me rage so much about this bill; all the good things it could have done were destroyed to get pharma and insurance industry support.

>>8009259
im not i havent said shit i was just catching up on the thread and there is it im really fucking sick of it

and how would i know wtf their talking points are if i dont watch their freaking channel?

War isn't fucking glorious, motherfucker.

>>8009299
unless you're shooting brown pregnant women in the gut.

>>8009283
by knowing nothing of the actual healthcare bill but he publicly vomits word-for-word Fox News talking points? I dunno, he's like jesus and his miracles consist of fucking stupidity.

>>8009335
Fox News Fox News Fox News Fox News!
Go back to NBC.