>stalin and mao killed more than he did
may i see a citation please.

you cant because youre wrong

It's only evil if you kill other people, it's heroic and patriotic if you kill your own.

>>5856345
...lol?

Stalin more then twice the kills of Hitler(who has only 12m) and Mao has above 50 million.

...one death is a tragedy a million is a statistic

I doubt any of those men personally killed anyone. Therefore they have 0 kills.

I'd number Stalin's toll at around 10 million. The upper bound is 20. World War two is some 50-60, with maybe 15 of that in Asia, so Hitler beats him quite handily.

And the only way you can give Mao a death toll anywhere near those is to hold him responsible for the famines. But that's questionable methodology given that he eliminated chronic hunger, so the net death toll was negative.

"India fills its closets with more skeletons every 8 years than China did in its years of shame."

>>5856394
Let me just edit what I said about Mao

He killed people by not feeding them and just being a general dick.

Not actually killing which is the main difference between Hitler and Stalin and Mao. Those two killed through harsh acts while Hitler just killed.

>>5856415
>World War two is some 50-60
...You're using a war to add to the death toll?

People seem to get really offended when I inform them that before WWII, Hitler was regarded as Germany's FDR. He was a charismatic leader known for fixing the economy and giving people jobs. Even in the midst of the Holocaust, people put the smell of burning Jews in the backs of their minds because things were looking up.

Not to say that it wasn't despicable, though. That's around the time when my family became an English-speaking household in the US.

>>5856417
This.

Hitler built camps for the sole purpose of killing people.

>>5856345

jewblxox

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Stalin: 51 million
Mao: 54-56 million, not including the famine brought on by the Great Leap.

Its not some obscure fact of history that Hitler didn't kill as many of his people as our allies. But I guess when the Jews run everything, this is what you get.

>>5856428
A war Hitler initiated...

>>5856412

Hitler fought in WWI so he probably personally killed a few people.

If Hitler didn't kill people outside of Germany no one would have cared either. Stalin and Mao just killed their own people.

>>5856442
>BAWWW HE STARTED IT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims

The most credible source on the internet.

>>5856428

Well, yeah? I don't actually care about the Jews he killed. It's that he dared to take arms against the motherland.

mao killed many more than stalin who killed many more than hitler.

hitler's just a nice face to pin all the atrocities of the world. some people have a difficult time accepting the world has been rife with murder throughout their lifespan.. in other words evil didn't end with world war 2, as americans often make it out to have been.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

>>5856442
It's still utterly retarded to have Death Toll of a war directly relate to the leader of the country.

By that argument Stalin still trumps Hitler for basiclly sending his troops in willy nilly.

>>5856472
He was therefore responsible for the entirety of the Death toll of WWII.

i doubt we would see him as a necessary evil

britons don't see cromwell as a necessary evil and he was on the winning side.

Hitler was batshit insane and the Germans lost World War 2 because of his constant meddling in the affairs of war that he knew little or nothing about. Hitler also liked to pit his generals against one another. He lived in a fantasy constructed in his head.

Stalin was as paranoid and cold-blooded as they come. The Red Army barely survived because he had decapitated most of its leadership before the war even began. The number of officers and soldiers arrested and executed for 'treasonous' behavior was staggering.

Congrats on passing 10th grade european history, OP.

This thread would be sadder if it WASN'T full of trolls.

>>5856439

I keep wondering where these ludicrous figures for Stalin come from. So much I actually did the Maths once. If you look at the population of the soviet union during his era, given the historical natal rate, there is no way anyone could possible claim anything more than 30 million. That's the absolute upper bound, if Stalin was responsible for every single unaccounted human in that time period. But then some moron comes along and yells FIFTY MILLION OMGWTFBBQ

>>5856501
Yeah and because Britain/America/Russia didn't give in to Germany immediately they got many of their soldiers killed and thus the leaders of those countries deserve to have the death toll of WW2 put on to them too.

>>5856491
He would not have been able to send in troops at all without a WWII. Under no circumstance would WWII have happened without Hitler.

I'm willing to admit Allied propaganda is a part of the reason we hate Hitler more, but the reality is he systematically killed everyone who wasn't an Aryan. He killed them in the least human ways possible. Stalin and Mao got rid of their political opposition efficiently.

>>5856506

This Briton sees Cromwell as good, for what it matters. God he was a manbeast.

OP, I hate communists and general leftist faggotry but you have to realise Russia and China had larger populations, were poorer and they only killed people they deemed a threat to the state rather than targetting entire ethnic groups, though Stalin and Mao both targetted ethnic groups when they deemed them a threat to the state.

>>5856394
Stalin killed 13-15 million families mate.

Mao killed 48-72 million families. But those are all estimates.

And, to those who don't know, Hitler killed 6 million Jews. That's a fact. 6 million JEWS. But the total estimate (including Gays, Gypsy's, Undesirables, Political criminals, all the others, etc.) goes up over 12 million.

"How I defeated the Germans? I sent wave after wave of my own men against them until it became winter and they froze to death."

You now realize that Stalin was the Zapp Brannigan of WWII.

>>5856550
Cromwell was more of an inevitability than a necessary evil, Charles II was a necessary evil and perhaps the real hero of the civil war. He was essentially the first constitutional monarch and he was pure awesome balancing the need for a leviathan strongman to keep order with parliament and taking a productive role in administering the economy encouraging free trade and setting up the royal society which would lead to awesome scientific advances and setting the stage for the industrial revolution and the highest levels of prosperity and freedom any culture had ever experienced in the history of mankind, pretty much as close as we can get to a benevolent dictator in the real world.

>>5856639
My mind is blown wide open.

>>5856535

>he systematically killed everyone who wasn't an Aryan

DERP.

>>5856639

Worked a whole lot better than manoeuvring around until you suddenly find yourself in Dunkerque on a fishing vessel.

>>5856659

While that's true, Charles Ii didn't beat the Dutch at sea and the Spanish on land. Neither did he conquer Scotland nor pacify Ireland. Cromwell just walked around and fucked shit up 200 years before the world learnt to fear Britain.

>>5856635
I admit my original estimate was a bit high for Stalin but I'm pretty sure most sites put it at low 20 million.

>>5856659
>He was essentially the first constitutional monarch and he was pure awesome balancing the need for a leviathan strongman to keep order with parliament and taking a productive role in administering the economy encouraging free trade and setting up the royal society which would lead to awesome scientific advances and setting the stage for the industrial revolution and the highest levels of prosperity and freedom any culture had ever experienced in the history of mankind, pretty much as close as we can get to a benevolent dictator in the real world.

That's a hell of a fucking sentence mate, jesus christ.

>>5856444
Hitler was a courier in WWI. Doubtful he killed anyone.

>>5856311
Hitler killed people because they were of a specific group like jews or gypsies.
Stalin killed because he was paranoid and saw enemies everywhere. He took this so far as to condemn entire nations to death (Ukraine).
Mao killed people trying to do the right thing, as the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Besides offing his ideological enemies and everyone that was "of the old way of doing things". He also starved so many by trying to re-teach rice farmers how to grow rice, while knowing nothing about the process in the first place.

tl;dr: Hitl0r is worse not because of his death toll numbers, but because he won the "Biggest, murderous deluded asshole of the 20th century" Award. That and White people don't count Asia in history, like they also don't count South America, Africa and every place else that isn't Europe and Murrika.

Interesting tidbit: In the mid-30s, the Nazi Party newspaper, the Volkischer Beobachter, heaped enormous praise on FDR and his New Deal. This is largely because they both had similar economic views.

>>5856846
But it probably meant he was shot at a fucking lot.

>>5856889

Yeah. Also interesting is that they both worked.

>>5856311
Jewfag. Because Hitler was the one who defined what a genocide was, how bad a political leader can get. Not only did he try to wipe an entire people out, he literally attempted to conquer the
world and make it a German one, and attempted to create a super race of Aryans. He tried to create an empire where everyone was the same: strong, perfect, conforming, superior, etc. (What all of us here wanna be). It was bizarre, yet fascinating at the same time. I still maintain the notion that the Holocaust was the most professional of genocides ('most bizarre' I give to Pol Pot however). What he wanted to do with his country. My God, the list is endless, the faggot was a really intelligent man that knew what he wanted. Too bad, like with almost everyone with great ambitions, it ended up being his downfall because he got so full of himself.

And the reason why people look down on Mao and Stalin during this time. Hardly anyone knew what was going down there at the time. Britain had a number of spies in Germany during the war, and we had 6 years to uncover what they were doing. The USSR on the other hand, not so much. Whatever happened there, stayed there. And we didn't get a lot of info. of what happened there until Chernobyl happened, which the Soviet Union was forced to break their silence about. The same goes for China when Nixon opened it up.

That and China is still Communist, thus look at Hitler was the more evil-doer. And Russia still remembers Stalin and Lenin fondly (the weird fucks).

If he waited a couple weeks, Stalin would have thrown the first punch and we'd be speaking German out of gratitude.

Ah, timing.

>>5856810
Nobody has the exact numbers. Estimates bounce around more than an ADHD kid drinking a can of Monster.

Millions and millions died and it was a terrible stage in human history resultant from lacking wisdom of the age.

is there anything else to it? whether it was 1 or 100 million dead doesn't really change the importance with which such similar political situation should be paid.

The 'death toll' of Stalin is ridiculously overstated by right-wing historians who have little or no credibility, alot of them were former Nazi supporters who switched sides to the American anti-communist movement after Hitler blew his brains out.

Just look at some B-grade films made in the 30's by the Nazi's portraying the Soviet Union, and later coopted by the McCarthyist anti-communist movement (Nazism was the grandfather of the modern anti-communist sentiment in America).

Also, famines happen, especially when the entire industrial base of the Soviet Union was destroyed in the Civil War. To blame it on one man is ridiculous political hackery.

Also, you had rich land owners who were hording grain from the state, and refusing to send it to the cities, which is why Stalin wanted to break their power and force a collective model where the peasants owned the land together.

In the 1938 famine the land-owners in the Ukraine were speculating on higher grain prices abroad, and selling it abroad while their was a domestic shortage (the Soviet State and Russian peasants had less money than foreign governments).

Stalin (as did Lenin before he died) wanted a gradual transition in agriculture, so the land-owners gradually handed over control of the land and farms to their peasants as the Soviet State educated and trained the peasants in how to operate agricultural farms, tractors etc.

>>5857284

The land-owners, mostly in the Ukraine, refused to cooperate with the Soviet state, and in many cases burned their own farms and slaughtered their own cattle in defiance of the government.

This meant in most cases the Soviet state had to forcibly expel the land-owner, arrest him, or even kill him, and set up a soviet in that farm. As a result, many collective farms didn't have the expertise they needed.

Class warfare is class warfare my friends, it's bloody and it's nasty, but it had to be done. It's not like the land-owners in Russia deserved any better for keeping so many millions of peasants in servitude for so long.

>>5856639
He never said that >_<

How evil someone is doesn't neatly go with body counts. Stalin was just a large-scale tinpot, third-world tyrant. He killed people on whim or because they posed an actual political threat to him, in relatively pedestrian ways.

Hitler, OTOH, was purely ideological, and more methodical and, not to beat a dead horse because this gets mentioned every time the evil of the Shoah is discussed, industrial.

ITT: Nazisploitation cliches


United Europe purged of commies eliminating a Wall Street propped-up soviet block & cold war sounds like a PRETTY PREFERABLE SCENARIO; even as a marxist, this clearly would have been the next demanded step in the development of capital. Lenin was a regressive influence.

My personal interpretation of the greater evil that was Hitler was that Hitler caused atrocities and a holocaust in what was then a first-world, democratic country. That this sort of evil could be located in Germany, as opposed to say Turkey, Russia, or China, was unacceptable, and remains unacceptable to people and also terrifying. The lesson Hitler taught the world was that even a developed democracy could fall, if it fell on hard enough times.

>>5857284
>>5857298
The Ukrainian holocaust didn't work like that. Stalin suspected that "dangers to the state" were hiding in the Ukraine. They gave the Ukraine nearly impossible grain quotas to export to Russia in late fall, essentially sending all food out of the country. Then they put up military check points at every entrance to the country to prevent food from coming in. Winter set in, and Stalin sent in troops to take every last crumb from everyone stating they were "hiding" more grain from Russia and thus going against Marxist ideals and disobeying state orders.

tl;dr: Stalin starved the Ukraine because he was paranoid of people objecting to his power.

>>5857284
>Also, famines happen, especially when the entire industrial base of the Soviet Union was destroyed in the Civil War.

You're conveniently ignoring they killed off all their productive farmers on purpose because they considered them enemies of the state, i.e. The Kulaks.

That was why the Great Famine happened in the first place.

>>5857298
>It's not like the land-owners in Russia deserved any better for keeping so many millions of peasants in servitude for so long.

Industrial and agricultural output had been increasing successively in Russia prior to the first world war and it took two decades for them to reach that level again after collectivization.

Land redistribution schemes DO NOT WORK. They didn't work in Zimbabwe, they didn't work in SA, they didn't work in Venezuela.

Fuck, they didn't even work in the Roman Republic. Lots of ex-soldiers and urban poor RETURNED TO ROME because they had no idea how to run a successful farm.

Furthermore, larger, 'latifundia' farms are preferable to smaller ones in terms of grain production because of economies of scale. Tiny little plots of lands owned by a peasant may sound nice, but they don't achieve the same levels of production.

>>5857366
Except Germany wasn't a developed democracy. The Weimar Republic was a flabby, pseudo-Republic forced on them by the West along with the rest of the shit Versailles proposed.

>>5857374
Actually, the only people objecting to 'Stalin's power' in the Ukraine were the land-owners who stood to loose profit over being forced to feed their own people as opposed to selling the richer foreign markets.

>>5857381
Again, as I said in my previous post, the Kulaks (read: rich land-owners with links to foreign capitalist governments) were waging a war against the Soviet government by refusing to send grain to the cities to feed their own countrymen because it was more profitable to sell it abroad.

They in many cases killed Soviet officials who were went into the rural areas, held peasants hostage, used terrorism, intimidation, threats to burn grain supplies and slaughter cattle, in order to remain land-owners as long as possible.

It wasn't 'genocide', it was class warfare. If you think the kulaks were a class who didn't deserve to go down the plughole of history, then you no NOTHING about Russian history and the suffering of the peasantry.

>>5857469
Athens, fuck you and your right-wing nonsense. The Weimar Republic was unstable, but it was a functioning democracy, and next to the Shoah one of the worst crimes of the Nazis was wiping out the fantastic, vibrant culture that developed under it.

>>5857499
>They in many cases killed Soviet officials who were went into the rural areas, held peasants hostage, used terrorism, intimidation, threats to burn grain supplies and slaughter cattle, in order to remain land-owners as long as possible.

Only AFTER Stalin declared a process of dekulakization.

>It wasn't 'genocide'

You are a Marxist. You deserve to be put up against a wall, five yards and a firing squad.

Actually, fuck that.

I wouldn't dignify you by giving you the same death as officers of the army recieve. You'd be hung until death from a fucking meathook, you filthy commie piece of shit.

Let me restate for the record, Industrial and Agricultural output had been increasing roughly 3% throughout the 1900s in the run up to the first world war. Russia was not in so bad a state economically as people like to make out.

Socialism is, as Churchill put it, the 'creed of envy'. The Kulaks were good farmers, so they were to be killed off.

>>5857520

>weimar rep. was a functioning republic

Culture flourished because of the ANARCHY--

Violence, violent revolutionaries commie and otherwise flourished-- BECAUSE OF THE ANARCHY

It was a dysfunctional foreign system imposed on the Germans by anglofellating germanophobes and international finance.

>>5857433
Actually, in all the cases you mention, my point stands.

Stalin and Lenin favored a gradual transition to socialism, so gradually the peasants/workers would take over as the government educated/trained them in how to operate farms/factories.

In the Soviet Union the industrial handover was largely a success, and resulted in an extremely advanced industrial base being developed (on par with Germany or Britain) in only about 10 years.

That was because Lenin kept the former technical expertise of the factory owners, they didn't earn any more than workers, but he kept them in charge of the factories until the State had educated the workers enough for them to take over.

soviet created the gas chambers

>>5857545
In terms of agricultural handover, it didn't work out the same in the Soviet Union.

But this is because the land-owners, as opposed to the factory-owners, were not willing to cooperate with the government in a gradual education of the peasants in modern techniques, and then handing over ownership to them when they were fully educated.

OF COURSE handing over some part of any economy to people who don't know how to run it is a bad idea, that's common sense.

>>5857520
>but it was a functioning democracy

Yes, functioning with hyperinflation and weak coalition governments that could barely last a week, not to mention fucking armed militias on the street and a couple of insurrections thrown into the mix.

>fantastic, vibrant culture

Is that how you describe decadent, conceptual art bullshit these days? Funny. I'll take the Third Reich's art any day over that filth.

>>5857545
>Implying that Soviet figures about the five year plans are to be believed

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