Merely articulating an idea which is known to everyone?

>>4191411
Yeah, well, I'm expecting waves upon waves of denial.

>>4191417
Try this on /v/ for comical effect.

I agree whole-heartedly.

>>4191417

You'd have better luck posting this in /v/. Although it'd probably get written off as blatant trolling and much BAAAAAWWWWWing to the mods.

>I'm merely articulating an idea to see if it stands up. Also, you're the one that has to disprove my point.
so basically, this is a prove me wrong thread? yawn

It is true.

But then again, so is most human activity. What is productiveness? Working for the sake of your species?

>except for during social occasions

Ambiguous. Many would argue that playing games online is a social occasion. Therefore WoW players are all an exception to your idea.

I dunno about "brilliant thinkers/innovators" but I know plenty of people who raised families, held down steady decent jobs and seem pretty happy to me who play video games

i could point to hundreds of millions of not intelligent/thinkers/innovators that don't play video games either. whats your point?

92% of the people that use the word "manchild" are child molestors. Fact.

>Picture is unrelated.
hahaha no
not really at all

Sauce on the pic, please.

>>4191402

The average age of video gamers is 33.

Also, "brilliant thinker or innovator" is purposefully vague. Innovator or thinker in what field? Hard sciences? The arts?

I play video games all the time. I played the new Yu-Gi-Oh! DS game for at least five or six hours today.

And I 100% agree with the OP. I could probably be out there working out or doing homework or even reading a book, something to improve myself or my social condition, but instead I stayed inside all day and played a video game.

Not saying video games are the problem, though, I'm the problem. I ended up also spending all day on the computer. I've gotten off this chair like two or three times today.

Two men work on computer systems for the government, both of them do the same job, and it's a job that needs to be done so the computational side of the government doesn't fall apart over night. What they do has a vastly profound, if mostly unnoticed, affect on society.

One of them plays golf with his friends in his free time. The other plays video games with his friends in his free time. Both of these men get the job done.

>>4191441
By "social occasion", I mean playing with people you HAVEN'T met through gaming. You know, IRL social occasions.

>>4191428
This is true, but there are activities that are far better for you than gaming. Things that transcend the instant gratification you get from getting a 5 kill streak on CoD.

FULL DISCLAIMER: I am an ex-gamer.

I just noticed this recently... I don't play games, but for some reason, I was reading a games thread (this is on another, non-anon message board that I frequent). To my surprise, I recognized half the names... and they were universally the worst, most idiotic posters on the forums.

Plus, Tim Buckley's a gamer.

Video games are dumb and gamers are dumb.

>>4191490
Oh, and, often times the golfer golfs alone, and often times the gamer games alone.

I know a doctor that is an avid gamer
his wife only allows him to play on sunday though, soo
pussy-whipped, but still a gamer

It is more or less true, but staying on 4chan isn't any way better, so shut up OP.

I don't play video games at all anymore, yet I still follow the whole "culture".

Where do I fit in?

>>4191402
Logically you're attacking fiction as well. Funny, because without basic fictions, you probably would have never learned to read or write. Without video games doctors could not improve their manual dexterity, much to your detriment when they operate on you, and without the video game industry to drive graphics rendering and computing power development, science would be crippled, years behind it's potential from lack of computer power to supplement its research. And I guess flight simulators, unmanned space craft and remote bomb defusing machines would just have to blink out of existence. Isn't our new world without fiction media grand?

>>4191514
You're a poser, which makes you more pathetic than the actual neckbeards.

when you play a single-player video game for the story it's like reading a book or watching a movie. same thing. it's just that video games are more addictive and take longer.

plenty of people (such as myself) fit video games into their life with no trouble and go on to do many more important things. it's the way i relax. you probably do something to relax.

>>4191531

"Neckbeard" is another word that is only used by child molestors, and worse, goons. You are batting zero.

meh, i like my vidya games. i don't think it makes me a manchild
I also play soccer

both good ways to de-stress.

If my mother cooked all my meals, Ironed and washed my clothes and i was unemployed, then id be a manchild

>>4191514

You're a female who is only interested in the hobby because you know that it's cool.

Kill yourself...or have sex with every guy you meet, I suggest you do the latter.

I find playing video games a great stress reliever, and it can also be good motivation as reward for doing work.

>>4191424
yeah, that's why I didn't post this on /v/. I figure /r9k/ is full of gentlemen (or it used to be) who can at least deal with the concept without lots of WITTY_REACTION_PIC.jpg

>>4191523
Nonsense post. Most of those examples are not really video games, and as for doctors and computer science not advancing? lol.

>>4191490
Yeah, I'll agree there. It was probably hyperbole to say "LOL NO VIDEOGAMERS ARE PRODUCTIVE" but at least, with the golfer, he's developing somewhat transferable skills and maybe working on a swing that'll impress a future boss?

Also the golfer is still entertaining himself in reality, not in "virtual reality", so to speak.

In fact, at this point, I think it's pretty safe to say that if you don't play "video games" (what a lumpy term), you are either a poor person, a woman, or most likely of all, a man with an unhealthy attraction to children.

When was the last time you heard about a pedo playing a single-player game on the news?

It's pretty fucking clear, 's all I'm saying.

If you don't like video games, you are a kidfucker.

>>4191574
Interesting hypothesis. Do you think we could perhaps use that to identify them and get them the treatment they need and keep our children safe?

Video games are becoming another form of popular media. It's a way to tell a story and have the player interact with the environment as opposed to just watching (Movie, TV) or reading. Some are even considered "art".

It helps with hand-eye coordination and actually raises reaction-time and iq due to the reading involved (RPGs mainly).

Play Deus Ex and tell me video games are a waste of time.

>>4191582
yes yes YES i'm liking this idea

very good, very clever

>>4191559

the thing you're not seeing is that someday the boss will be impressed by your skills in fucking him up at street fighter.

>>4191582

I know a fat Jew with a sperg accent who is pretty vocal on this subject. Should I call the cops?

Stop trying to be your parents' ideal.

>>4191600

Dude. Seriously? You have a moral obligation to deal with this sick fuck. Fucking bring down the hammer.

>>4191523
If, however, you're not just attacking fiction medias but video games specifically, then you have revealed yourself to be laughably short sighted. Video games have existed in one form or another for a mere 40-50 years depending on what you really want to call a video game. And most of that time was spent with ridiculous restrictions as far as creative options. But technology has caught up.
Let us take a look at the first decade or two of film. Not the most enlightened library of flicks. No sound, barely any plot, no dynamic camera. However, what happened when technology caught up with the medium? Masterpieces, by most accounts. A person with any awareness could see the parallels. Interactive art, which might one day be a better description that video games, is at the cusp of this technological tipping point. Already games have been produced that have plots, characters, and acting(voice acting at least) that is leaps and bounds more sophisticated than throw away chick flicks and parody movies.

>>4191614

i call this a point for gamers. video games are already more sophisticated than mainstream media.

games are only worthwhile activity left in this feminized world

>>4191594
True, and that's why I said video games are good in social settings. I mean, I'll admit, I certainly enjoy kicking a friend's ass at an FPS or a fighter, but there's something very unsatisfying about playing it alone, and I'm sure even the most dedicated gamer can agree that it's a lot easier to get burnt out playing a video game alone than it is doing other activities alone.

>>4191583
>Hand-eye coordinate
Play a sport
>All the reading
Read a book.

>>4191630

What do you have to say about the frighteningly positive correlation between not playing single-player games and being a kidfucker?

Specifically fallout 3? I guarantee you every innovator involved with computer science, software or the internets has played a video game like a manchild at least once, if not then they must be very dull and boring.

Truth is that only 16 year old girls care about maturity.

>>4191644

Those don't count! They're not REAL science or invention! God, this powdered wig is itchy.

ITT: Hobbies are a waste of time.

>Point to a brilliant thinker or innovator that also plays Fallout 3 in his spare time like a manchild.

Because if no one else is doing it, it's not worth doing at all.

However I do agree with OP that playing video games is a fairly dumb thing to do, mainly because video games are at the moment to undeveloped as a medium that Fallout is basically the best you're can get at the moment.

Right now we still see them as interactive movies which is kinda like seeing movies as recorded theater plays or theater plays as acted out books or book as recorded stories told around the campfire.

In 40 years, video games will be worth playing and they'll give us works of art as great as cinema and literature has.

>>4191514

Typical /v/ poster

ITT: Trolls trolling trolls while practicing all those new fancy Critical Thinking lessons in college

>>4191630
Did you even read my post?

Sure you can play sports and read. You can also play video games as well. Duh. It's a leisure activity just like the others and it's not some type of faction you join that forces you to give up the other two. You can play sports, read AND play video games in the same lifetime. Sometimes, even in the same DAY! *gasp*

I know it's hard for your mind to wrap around, but that's ok. Just loosen the straps on that helmet and you'll feel fine.

>>4191630

>Play a sport
Not everyone is good at sport.

>Read a book
Assume that I hate books, but I followed your advice. What should I say to the librarian?

>>4191666

Grim Fandango has more worth as a narrative and more artistic merit than a very large percentage of movies that have come out since its release.

>>4191630
Read which book? Twilight? Atlas Shrugged? That fake druggie autobiography Oprah got scammed by? How is reading a book better than playing a video game?

>>4191630
>Play a sport
I don't think they'll let you play on the high school team, guy. You're like thirty.
>Read a book
Why is you reading list full of Nabokov, Arthur Clarke, and Lewis Carrol?

This argument presupposes quite a bit. It presupposes a lot about what someone who plays video games is like, how often they play them, etc.

It presupposes a culture where video games are an extreme niche form of entertainment, which is not true anymore. It may have been true when you grew up (and undoubtedly played them), but it's short-sighted to say things are the same as they were what, ten years ago?

And the argument isn't even that clear. What are you even saying? Geniuses don't engage in leisure activities, or are you just shitting on video games as a form of entertainment? What, it's worse than watching a movie? Worse than reading a book? Sure, whatever. Arrange the heirarchy however you like because it doesn't matter. Everyone has a vice and it doesn't matter what the vice is, it's how often a person indulges.

And don't bother arguing that "notable people don't play video games". I remember reading a pretty in-depth article about GTA4 and the games/art situation published around the time GTA4 came out, written by a pulitzer-winning author.

But of course you didn't know that, because you haven't heard of him, because you're too busy playing video games.

>>4191687
Loads and loads of Heinlein. That will make you into a real go getter.

>>4191666
OP here. Yeah, I'll toast to that. It's just that video games at the moment are very limited as an art form. I won't deny that they have potential, it's just that they're very very finite and much more boring than the real world and all its possibilities? This includes literature and music, btw.

Like you said, it'll probably change in about 40 years or so, though.

>>4191682
it was damn stylish, but jeeeezus christ, puzzles were fucked up - make some weird stuff, spill it over the floor, and froze it with this big motherfucker, how the fuck should i figure this out? ok, goblins were illogical a bit too, but it was 1-2 locations at once, not fucking million. grim fandango sucked.

>>4191712
I think you may have issues involving being a terrible broken monster? Segueing into questions like this is a sign of untreated Narcissistic Personality Disorder? You are a person who should die?????

Sports are a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively takes part in them.

Films are a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively watches them.

TV is a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively watches it

Music is a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively listens to it.

Sex is a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively takes part in it.

Social events are a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively takes part in them.

I could go on and on, but I hope you get the point.

>>4191719
>grim fandango sucked

>>4191559 Yeah, I'll agree there. It was probably hyperbole to say "LOL NO VIDEOGAMERS ARE PRODUCTIVE" but at least, with the golfer, he's developing somewhat transferable skills and maybe working on a swing that'll impress a future boss?

There's nothing there that can't be applied to the gamer as well. That is unless you want to argue arms are more important than thumbs, but I get the feeling that's really not your point. A boss could be a gamer just as easily as a golfer these days, so y'know. Both of them are games, and they use a different set of skills (though one set of skills really isn't any more valuable than the other, at least not in this case).

Video games, when used as a way to relieve stress and relax, doesn't make you any less of good citizen than pretty much any other common way to relax and entertain yourself.

>>4191612
fucking signed.

>>4191712
you won't toast to anything. You've never been within ten yards of a toast in your life. "Mead" doesn't count.

>>4191630
Playing a sport or reading a book contributes to society more than gaming how?

Protip: They don't, you've just got a higher opinion of those activities.

Religion is a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively takes part in them.

Hey, this is fun!

>>4191734

i swear ur Death

>>4191630
It's actually been shown that surgeons who played video gamest that require use of spatial processing performed better and faster in surgery. Can you imagine a surgeon risking breaking a finger or a limb in any sport? If that happens, they're fucked.

Now, I'm going to speak out vocally in favor of dogfucking. Yeah, well, I'm expecting waves upon waves of denial.

What if I play sports two to three times a week and play video games in my spare time and read whenever I find a book that peaks my interest? Not everybody is one extreme, faggot.

>>4191742
Well, see, that's the thing. Sports and religion DO make for productive members of society.

The thing is that what we have decided we are producing is rancid shit.

"Productive" is really a hollow term.

entertainment is not a waste of time.

>>4191754

How is sport more productive?

PROTIP: it isn't. Sports are actually a fucking drain on society what with people using them as an excuse to run riot and harm people.

>>4191761

You'll want to notice that what these people think of as sports are TEAM sports only. What better to school a new generation of fuel for the military-industrial and penal engines than organized, psychosexually charged violence with a strong collectivist ethic?

>>4191783

"collectivist" is way too benign a term, bro.

"pack ethic".

>>4191719
I love Grim Fandango(to DEATH, heh, heh, heh), but I have to sign this. The real 'game' aspect of it was badly executed.

This is a shift in subject, though. You have to judge the quality of a game by all the parts of it- the writing, the tech, the controls, the whole rigamarole. What games are the best in EVERY respect?

>>4191682

Which doesn't really refute anything which I said.

What I said is that simply trying to emulate what came before is stupid.

For example the high watermarks in cimena, like Blade Runner, Apocalypse Now, Ben Hur, etc., all do things which ONLY movies can do. They advanced the art of cinematic story telling. It would be impossible to adapt them into stage plays, comics or video games withing losing a large portion their essence.

Right now we are at a point in video games which is very much like if the high point in cinema was just filming stage plays. We aren't utilizing the full potential of the interactive medium. That is why I think video games are not worth bothering over right now.

I can get much more refined entertainment and art from any bookstore or blockbuster.

>>4191794
>We aren't utilizing the full potential of the interactive medium.

What exactly, then, is the "full potential" of video games? I'd honestly like to know.

>>4191823

He doesn't know what he's fucking talking about.

>>4191402
I agree with you OP.
Vidya is totally unproductive and you virginfags should just kill yourself.

I'll do the girl fucking and you do the button smashing.

This is a dumb troll thread but I gotta say that I just finished replaying Pokemon Red today, shit was so cash.

>>4191823

The complete destruction of the pre-constructed narrative.

Right now video games can't do that since they have a very small amount of space to exist in. So they set up in-game borders, preventing you from doing anything beyond those borders.

For example Fallout as a dialog tree based roleplaying element in them, i.e. you choose what to say. however you never ahve anything more than 5 or 6 choices and all the NPCs reactions are pre-designed.

So there is a narrative there, just that you can choose to influence that narrative at certain times.

>>4191909

The destruction of the pre-constructed narrative? So basically World of Warcraft.

>>4191909

I'll say it again: you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>4191941
sandbox=/=narrative

>>4191402
I'm pretty sure Joss Whedon plays video games and lots of people think he's a genius. Darren Aronofsky does too.

>>4191955

I think he knows what he's talking about, but what he's talking about is absurd. It's basically a video game where every NPC has a capacity for human thought.

>>4191975

And if we're talking about famous film directors, Spielberg MAKES video games.

>>4191979
i'm not who you're replying about but I think a very artful game would have rules that could be applied to many situations in life, without taking on too much pretension to work.

>>4191984

Making is productive. Playing is non-productive. There's a world of difference.

>>4192023
you MAKE decisions in a video game

You failed to factor in that video games have only been mainstream for 30 years. The oldest people who played video games are in their late 30's. What do you expect someone to have done by age 35? Cure cancer?

> Books are a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively reads them except for during social occasions.

> Movies are a childish waste of time and no productive and self-fulfilled member society actively watches them except for during social occasions.

>>4192021

It might be that it's late, but that sentence doesn't appear to mean anything. Please elaborate.

>>4192043
>The oldest people who played video games are in their late 30's

Actually, a quarter of the video game population is over the age of 50.

Source: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2008.pdf

I play historical strategy games like EU3 and RTW (EB mod). I've learned a lot about history and geography.

I'm also a productive member of society; I have a job.

ITT: /r9k/ fails to recognize trolling.

>Also, you're the one that has to disprove my point.
Nobody has to disprove anything, ever. It's the default state of any claim, until proven true. You failed at proving it true, so there, eat a container of feces.

>>4192055
maybe I should use an example... um say tetris.

tetris is an artful game because it's relevant to the player, who wants to practice organizing things. it doesn't require much previous knowledge to understand tetris and to get going making decisions at it.

maybe i'm still not being clear =/

>>4192107

I can understand what you're saying, but you're not making sense. Art, all art, by design, is not utilitarian. Art is the polar opposite of utilitarian.

If you want to practice something using a video game, it ceases to be art, ceases to be a game and simply becomes an instructional aid.

>>4192131
art is a thoughtful construction. if i construct a set of rules, that's art. if those rules apply to many things in life, that art is good at communicating; all the better. somebody who practices decisions in a game is experiencing art.

games today are mostly concerned with mechanical decisions, but there's nothing saying you can't require a more humanistic decision out of the player.

>>4192086
Believing that some mouth-breathing 4channer was actually trolling is like believing a mentally retarded kid when you ask if he stole Bobby's toy and he says "no," chuckling uncontrollably

>>4191941

Yes and no.

There are certain elements of "do what you want" in WoW, but you every item, text, quest, NPC, boss and so on was created by Blizzard. The game is basically a long check list of things you can do.

The only aspect of WoW which isn't controlled by Blizzard is the player-to-player interactions, which isn't really a part of the game if you want to be picky. You're not talking to the game, you're talking to a person, so everything you get out of talking is the same as you could get out of talking to that person face-to-face.

I'd guess the perfect MMO would be like Second Life, Fallout and Eve Online.

>>4192184

No, no, no...

You're saying an artistic video game is one where the player, not the company (the artist) paints the canvas.

So the most artistic painting is a blank easel and brushes.

The most artistic film is a camera and stock.

The most artistic novel is a typewriter.

True art is one where the person observing derives meaning. One can derive meaning without creating the artwork themselves.

>>4191979

What's absurd about that? Simply because it's not something we think is possible right now doesn't mean it will ever be.

People probably would find the idea of a movie, a medium where you records event as they happened, just as absurd 500 years ago.

>>4191402
If it weren't for video games, people would be finding equally wasteful things to occupy themselves. This argument against video games has been around long before video games has existed, just *insert inane activity here* in place of "video games". Before it was video games, it was pushing a hoop with a stick. Pick your poison.

Tl:dr: people are the problem, not video games.

>>4192212

And to give an example of a game where you're bound by the limits the developers have set, but one is still free to interpret their own meaning:

Shadow of the Colossus, which in many ways is the poster child for the "games as art" movement. There is little narrative, there is you, and 16 giants you must kill. Why do you kill them? Do they deserve it? Who is the real monster, you or otherwise docile giants? These are left purposefully vague, and while the game plays out the way the developers intended, the meaning of the experience is unique to the individual.

>>4192184
dunno about perfect but i think a better mmo would have content whose mechanics were determined by the players' personificationalisms.

like the path a player takes killing an enemy camp would affect the mood of the respawns.

>>4192214
>a medium where you records event as they happened

You don't record narrative films as they happen. Narrative films are constructed reality. Sure, you can Warhol it and just record yourself sleeping for nine hours, but there's a reason that's not the norm.

>>4192214
>What's absurd about that?

Art is meant to resemble life, not outright replicate it. That's why a statue is art, and not a baby.

>>4192212

Video games are unlike any of the other art forms known to man simply because it's interactive.

no matter how many times you read the same book, see the same movie, look at the same painting, it will always be the same thing, every single time from now until infinity.

The number of possible experiences contained within Pokemon is close infinite.

Bill Hicks played Zelda and Sonic. There's an interview on Counts of the Netherworld where he mentions his gaming habits. And the man was obviously a fucking genius.

SO I GUESS I WIN.

>>4192227
Loved that game. Even as I was playing it, I was thinking, "this kind of game should not be this good. If someone were to describe this to me, I would think it was retarded. Why am I enjoying this damn game so much?"

Well on the whole it can be seen as a waste of time like most things (television, recreational reading & other forms of entertainment) but playing FPS actually improves your vision and how fast you react to changes in the environment. Of course it depends on wha you read an watch on the TV in the book.

news story:http://news.bigdownload.com/2009/03/30/study-claims-playing-fps-games-improve-vision/

How about the developers who make the games we play? It's taken quite a lot of innovative thinking to get us to the point where we are today: Killing aliens on the planet Zog, all in almost photorealistic 3D. It takes a pretty damn good education, and years of experience to get a job at Valve or Blizzard. And you can bet your ass that their art teams are pretty fucking talented. And these people play video games.

>>4192259

Story telling art is suppose to give you an angle of perspective you previously didn't have. For example you might not be able to go into space and meet aliens, but with Ridley Scott's "Alien", it's as if you could.

There will of course be pre-designed aspects of the game, like how the physics work, how characters behave on some level, what time period your in, what kind of backstory your character has and so on.

however you will have complete controll to interact with the world as a character. You character might have limits to his freedom. He might be cripple, he might not speak the language everyone else does, he might not be able to breathe the air others can, etc.. However you shouldn't by stopped from solving a problem a certain way simply because that's not how the developers wanted you do solve the problem. Your "freedom of speech" shouldn't be limited to a multiple choice dialog tree. Those things are silly.

>>4192350
>However you shouldn't by stopped from solving a problem a certain way simply because that's not how the developers wanted you do solve the problem.

Yes, you should. Because in the end, a video game is still the reality the developer is creating, not you. It's still their narrative, their world, their rules. Just like films, just like novels, just like music and studio art.

You're saying that the only artistic video game is a complete sandbox, essentially, a video game that you create yourself from the ground up.

The DoD used some Tom Clancy games as training material. Pwnt. Hard.

wtf is the problem with playing video games 2-3 hours a day? It is possible to function and still play video games. I feel like i'm getting troll'd. Oh well.

Of all the games you could have mentioned to make a credible point, you chose the biggest abomination ever created - Fallout _3_. You lose, faggot.

ITT a troll, trolling some people

>>4192383

I probably worded that wrong.

What I want is not the current system where is a game says "Kill 10 bears" it really means "Kill 10 bears using weapons and/or methods we've approved"

If I cut down a tree and make it fall on the fucking bear, that should count as a kill. The game should know what I've done and understand how it fits with it's objectives.

If the game tells me to move a box across a room without using my character arms, I shouldn't have to confine myself to some elaborate "Towers of Hanoi" puzzle. I might be able to convince one of the NPC to do it for me.

A develop should be allowed to give the game limits, but just not silly limits like unexplained invincible walls of air blocking my movement.

The only people who care about maturity are the ones that are insecure about their own.

>>4192383

Also no I'm not saying that's the only way a game can be artistic.

I'm saying that having a linear pre-constructed narrative where you're limited by meaningless rules, like what you're allowed to say, in a game is like making a black and white movie, you're not living up to the full technical potential.