Yup, you hit the nail on the head. The situation definitely isn't any more complex than you're portraying it. Good job!

Not really. If you want to simplify it, it's because the standard of healthcare for rich people would decline.

enjoy giving 50c to the gov for every buck you make

>>3120223
Look at the "conservatives" in Europe. They would be left wingers in the US. Why? Because UHC shifted all of Europe's politics to the left. The center in Europe is center-left because people automatically assume that the government's role is to help the people, not rape them.

The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in America is pretty simple. If the lower middle class (the rural white working class (the rural white working class (the rural white working class especially) and the lower middle class realize that meant they would have to pay more for health care. tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is good, it's game over for health care. tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in political necessity and the working class realize that the Government is rooted in America is pretty simple.

That's exactly it. During the Clinton years, William Kristol, the arch Neocon wrote a letter to Republicans telling them to oppose all health care bills, especially if they were good for Americans, because if the Democrats did something good for Americans, it would mean fewer votes for Republicans in the future.

In other words, the Republicans voted against the best interests of American citizens in order to further their own political ambitions.

>>3120237
I already pay for insurance. I would rather the Government get my money than parasitic corporations. At least I can vote the Government out of power. All I can do to the Corporations is stop buying their product which in this case is medical care. If I did that I would die.

I'd prefer the government to stay out of healthcare. Just look at how Europe bans fucking foods left and right. Hell, New York has proposed a "fat tax" on non-diet soda/pop, fast food and everything. The money isn't even going to healthcare, WHAT THE FUCK.

Guy in great britain keeps getting calls from the government-run health clinic to get a flu shot. He says they don't make him feel good and they won't stop calling.

Bottom line: psuedo-capitalist corporate healthcare is shit and so is socialized medicine. Stay healthy and fit, pick up bitches and drive a Mercedes so you don't need to worry to much either way.

>>3120237

PROTIP: That's cheaper than what I pay now for health insurance + copays + deductibles.

I would SAVE money if the government had free health care.

>>3120283

>At least I can vote the Government out of power.

lolol

>>3120307

Are you a fat, cancer-ridden diabetic?

So you derive pleasure from arguing with barely literate 15-year-olds on the internet about national welfare policy, and uncritically accept partisan propaganda about "the liberals" and "the conservatives" and class conflict...

THAT DON'T IMPRESS ME MUCH

>Government
>good
hahawow.svg

Enjoy those tax hikes.

>>3120314
What is there to laugh about? When a politician fails, he is usually defeated in the polls. When a CEO fails, he gets a huge fucking bonus. I know which system I prefer.

>>3120283

whatever left-wing faggot told you gov-run health care was superior to private has never waited 16 months for an "emergency" knee surgery or spent a night in a waiting room just to see some haji doc in a filthy spanish hospital.

guess what, all those cares and procedures have high dollar costs, if you open the door to them for everyone the system will become congested and the burden on the taxpayer will jump tenfold.

Even canada who is heralded as having the best health care system in the world is incapable of properly handling the load and the the ever soaring costs

>>3120355

Look, America's private health care system which the Republicans ignorantly believe is so grand, is in reality the ranked 38th in the world after Costa Rica and slightly above Slovenia.

Government run health care has the top 10 spots in the W.H.O.'s rankings.

>>3120346

So a failed economic plan and the growth of executive power not being repealed is voting out of power. You can't vote something "out" using its own system.

When a CEO fails, the company is subsidized by the government (you voted for it) and leaves. If the corporation fails, it only affects its own clients/customers and workers. When a government fucks up, you get to pull the trigger again.

>>3120355
> best health care system in the world
IF IT'S BETTER THAN YOUR SYSTEM, YOU DON'T HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON.

>>3120355
There are many ways to supply the neccessary funds for a UHC system. My favorite is the Tobin Tax.

>>3120393
>If the corporation fails, it only affects its own clients/customers and workers.

This is what libertarians actually believe. Fucking nonsense.

>>3120401

So economic isolationism that undermines import/exports practices will keep a country afloat and its people healthy?

lol

>>3120355

privately-run fire departments are superior too, i bet. who has the right to make _their_ fire someone else's problem and not expect to pay for it?

Private health care is the least efficient way to provide health coverage to any society. In America, 38 million people can't get coverage. That's 15% of the population without any care.

Any system which rewards the health care provider for denying care, is inherently flawed. The insurance companies profit from denying people what they need.

the rest of the first world does tend to find it a bit baffling that the RICHEST FUCKING COUNTRY IN THE WORLD EVER has shittier healthcare than fucking cuba

i mean jesus christ cuba is a horrid little dictatorship, america went to the moon god damn, you cunts can do way better

>>3120415

Prove it wrong. The only reason it affects more people is because bad decisions are propagated and the government adds more layers of uncertainty to the economy in the form of stimulus. That's why it affects more people. Damn you statists love daddy-government with their fantastic schools, well-kept roads and functioning court system.

>>3120428
Yes it will, if combined with protectionist policies to keep the American worker employed. Reaganomics has failed. I suggest you adopt a new religion.

123
>Just look at how Europe bans fucking foods left and right. Hell, New York has proposed a "fat tax" on non-diet soda/pop, fast food and everything.

FUCK YES. Fat Americans shoveling trash in their face is a social and economic drag on everyone.

> LiberalIsolationist

Another product of a failing public school.

Tell me, what's it like to be so unable to comprehend basic economics?

Ask anyone who lives in a place where there is free/universal healthcare; basically if you arnt dieing it takes about a week for them to see you.

>>3120415
You mind explaining a little further other than "LOL LIBRARIAN RON PAUL ANNE RAN SLASH FIC LOL U GUISE R GAY"?

>>3120465

No, as long as we let them die and stop receiving emergency medical care, we're fine.

>>3120464

Not reaganomics, dumb-fuck. It's called open trade. You can't deny people their willingness to make a sale with another human being on the basis that it moves currency to a different locale. It's called competition, get used to it and maybe you can move out of your parents basement one day.

>>3120473
>Tell me, what's it like to be so unable to comprehend basic economics?

you tell us CB, after all you're the expert.

>>3120473
Feels good man. What's it feel like to support an economic system that is destabilizing America?

>>3120477

private healthcare doesn't just disappear when socialized healthcare appears, if you're that concerned about it you can still pay the premium & be able to skip the line

>>3120465
Apparently you have never shopped for food. Most food is like this:

[ ] Cheap
[ ] Tastes Good
[ ] Healthy

Pick two. Making a "fat tax" basically turns it into this:

[ ] Cheap
[ ] Tastes Good

>>3120494

Can't do those things, broski. And they're too stupid to learn it themselves, apparently. We need laws against fatties.

>>3120494

competition's a fun word to throw around when the global economic system is rigged in your favour.

ugh, christ, I give up


what really depresses me is that fucks like you have a vote

doesnt matter which side you pick, it'll get fucked either way if the lot of you have anything to say about it

Or it could be that distributed systems anticipate demand and provide supply priced for demand more efficiently than government bureaucracy ever has and will.

Personally, I would prefer the guy who worked through Harvard Medical so he could make 300,000 a year as the guy fixing up my insides instead of the guy who went to medschool in some shithole town so they could make a government salary.

>>3120509
Except now you also have to pay for everyone else, too.

>>3120504
if you really think America isn't hamstrung by retarded keynesian economic policies you really need to read a book or two

>>3120517

wat

That makes no sense, you know. If you tax shit food, that gives more incentive for suppliers to produce healthy food and consumers to purchase healthy food. That's how the market works.

>>3120536
Have you ever actually been to the doctor? They can't wait get you out of their office. More patients=more money. The Free Market decreases the quality of Medical care.

>>3120509

Amazing, I get to double pay for a service.

Sounds amazing.

How about you go fuck yourself? I'm already spending 40,000 a year in property taxes to put your snot-nosed ass through high school.

>>3120504

OH NOES 7.5% UNEMPLOYMENT AND A $1.95 A GALLON GASOLINE. AMERICA IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE!

Children, recessions are part of the business cycle. Irrational booms need to be corrected. You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years.

>>3120542

with private healthcare you're paying for everyone else who uses that particular firm plus whatever the company needs to make a profit

>>3120564
If they don't provide quality care no one is going to go back to them, idiot. What the government incentive to provide a good service?

I'm not saying the American system is better than UHC, but America doesn't have a FREE MARKET system.

>>3120536

Government doctors in UHC countries make good salaries. It's well above average.

They're not some retard with a scalpel.

Or we can get rid of the money system. Start working with labor credits or some bullshit.

Obviously money doesn't work.

>>3120589
either complete idiot or master troll

>>3120552
Unless its nationalized and people go apeshit over healthy food the price of healthy food will never lower especially since companies know that you will pay what they were already charging for their product.

Like global warming/climate change/manbearpig and the new thing that hippies are pushing to make ANOTHER tax law. Its just some other shit companies made up to make more money.

>>3120574

>Children, recessions are part of the business cycle. Irrational booms need to be corrected. You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years.

that is, the unprecedented increase in the incomes of the wealthy and the stagnation of wage growth for the common man?

yeah, feels good.

>>3120189
Government would be good, if the government officials weren't greedy and corrupt. Unfortunately, in the real world, they are. So a small government should be preferred (And is preferred by those who aren't idiots).

12
>>3120574
>AMERICA IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE!

No, but america is about to fall off its perch as the dominant superpower in the world.

>>3120564
they also cant wait to do their job right. fuck up=lawsuit

>>3120252
The issue in American politics is not government's role to help or rape, you simpleton. It's the role to help or to protect.

Give me a fucking break, even the fucking minimum wage has jumped like crazy in the last 20 years. Stagnation my ass.

>>3120564
>>3120580

Both are sort of right. More patients=more money (if they're denied) but it's simple.

The denial of medically necessary service under any health care should be a crime, just as well not having the money to pay for the service OR having insurance to pay for it is default and is considered debt (maybe you get sent to collections). POOF! problem solved, no more dead faggots, no more bullshit incentives for shitty service and people learn to take care of themselves.

>>3120605
it was unsustainable and everyone saw it coming anyway. We'll still be a top 5 player well into the next century

>>3120602

Goverment is corrupt, corporations are corrupt.

NEITHER IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. You fucking morons.

You have to pick and choose which is better for particular applications. National defense - governemtn. Health Care - government. Education - probably corporations.

>>3120574
>Recessions are part of the business cycle.Irrational booms need to be corrected.

But shouldn't the government's responsibility be to protect its people from the worst results of those "corrections"? I do not believe that the American people's health should be sacrificed at the alter of Free Markets.

But that's just me. I'm sure Herbert Hoover would agree with you though.

>>3120618
unfortunately thats what they want you to think they are doing.

>>3120605

>america is about to fall off its perch as the dominant superpower in the world.

Every generation of Europeans repeats this.

No one comes CLOSE to challenging the US in economic or military power.

You really have no idea.

China, like Japan before it, is completely dependent on exports to the United States.

15 years ago, Japan was going to be the NEW ECONOMIC SUPERPOWER.

Look how that turned out.

China is completely unstable. It has 850 million people in abject poverty ruled by a corrupt autocracy.

>>3120635
you are so ignorant it defies words

Think before you jump on the socialisation bandwagon instead of being a mindless tool. Where exactly do you think Obama will send those 3 trillion in taxpayer dollars?

>>3120649
>China is completely unstable. It has 850 million people in abject poverty ruled by a corrupt autocracy.

Maybe 10 years ago, yeah. Do you keep up with the times? China has made huge leaps forward on lots of fronts.

>>3120602
Because private corporations are totally pure and incorruptible. That's funny.

>>3120669
because they compete

government competes with no one

do you even know what decentralization of power is my god

>>3120564

I was at the doctor last week, I paid in cash. My service was quick and efficient, as I wanted it to be because I am not a faggot that wants to spend all day in a doctor's office. I also didn't need to because my doctor is a badass who listented to my symptoms, poked me in a couple places, took some blood and gave me a scrip. Told me he'd call me when the lab work went through to confirm he was right, and that otherwise I would have to come back for a different scrip.

He was right.

UHC would have no concern for either quality or quantity of services provided, like all government services.

Also, fuck you if you think I, a person who contributes significantly more to the economy than most people, should have to put up with the same shitty healthcare everyone else gets when I can afford better. No emergency room or doctor in the world is ALLOWED to refuse a patient treatment anyway. It's not like hospitals don't write off millions of dollars worth of bills every year because poor people couldn't pay. The only difference is in UHC that shit comes out of MY paycheck and not THEIRS. The only difference is that under UHC a 3 hr wait at the ER would turn into a 12 hr wait. The only difference is that in UHC health care would no longer be profitable and thus talented people would NO. LONGER. DO. IT.

>>3120667

You are a fucking moron.

China has 1.6 billion people.

Most live in poverty.

Even with those "giant leaps".

Even if it's shit people will probably still defend it (Seriously, I'm Canadian and the amount of people who will bend over for our healthcare system is ridiculous)
>>3120346
>When a politician fails, he is usually defeated in the polls.
Funny statement coming from the land where Bush got re-elected

>>3120700

Excuse me, 1.3 billion people.

With a unbalanced gender ratio.

It's a cesspit.

>>3120691

No matter how much you contribute to the world economy, you disgust me. I hope you get torn apart by a mob of riotous poor.

>>3120709

Bush got re-elected because he made Americans afraid of "TEH GAYS." Also John Kerry turned out to be a gigantic faggot who couldn't win a political campaign if he were running against Richard Nixon.

The voters rejected Bush-lite McCain and the Bush clone Palin at the polls last November. I'd say the system is working pretty well.

>>3120669

Straw Man. Begging the question.

Of course corporations are as corruptible as government, the difference is that corporations, as a whole, do what's in the best interests of profit. Profit, in the case of health care, is dramatically diminished when people cannot afford optional services and/or file malpractice suits.

If you were going to pick an argument and stick to it for UHC, you could probably pull out pharmaceutical companies as a good example that's nigh-irrefutable, but the problem is that doesn't make a full argument for DHC, it just makes an argument for changing the patent laws on medicine.

>>3120669
Because the state is totally pure and incorruptible. That's funny.

>>3120492
Can any of you robots answer my question or was I just trolled?

>>3120725

And I hope you get a fucking job you lazy fucking hippy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSZq1Wkanxg&feature=related

>>3120691

As has been stated already, the existence of public health care doesn't make private health care cease to exist. You can still pay for better health care.

>>3120700

China has a poverty rate of 10%, dipshit. So you're fucking wrong about there being 850 million people in poverty in China.

>>3120768
it makes it more expensive and IT STILL COMES OUT OF YOUR TAXES

>>3120734
>do what's in the best interests of profit

But not what is best for the consumer or the worker.This is why Free Market Capitalism fails.

>>3120781

If you're rich, you can afford to pay the difference, and since the wealth gap has increased by a large margin in recent decades, I don't have a problem with that. If you're not rich, you're getting the same level of healthcare anyway.

>>3120691
Why is there a growing shortage of doctors in America then, if it is such a profitable profession?

>>3120733

Richard Nixon was a great president.

One of the best of the 20th century. He almost won EVERY state in 1974. He is just demonized because of Watergate(rightly so).

pic related

>>3120794
well if consumers aren't buying then those who provide services aren't getting profit

holy dick do you leftists even think about what you say

>>3120812

You are delusional.

>Why is there a growing shortage of doctors in America

>>3120812

Do you really need to ask? It's fucking hard to do medical school, christ. I might be able to get in, but damn that's a lot of work and I don't know if I want to be a doctor or an economist, yet.

10/10 if trolling...

>>3120818
He only won because:
1. The Southern Strategy: He used racism to get traditionally democratic demographics to vote republican.
2. His opponents were John Kerry-esque hippies. No one likes hippies. I hate hippies, and I am more liberal than Michael Moore.

>>3120768

>Poverty in China refers to people whose income is less than a poverty line of $1 per day (PPP) set by the World Bank benchmark

That's EXTREME poverty idiot.

>>3120794
YEAH! IF PEOPLE WERE JUST NICE TO EACH OTHER THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE!

>>3120818

Wow he steamrolled GEORGE MCGOVERN.

That must have been tough.

>>3120794

Hm, so you haven't provided a definition for "failure" or in this case "consumer" or "worker," nor demonstrated in any way how the consumer or worker is damaged by corporations being motivated by profit, yet you are already claiming it fails. Why exactly does it fail? I want some real examples. I don't want some slippery slope reducto ad absurdum or ad nauseum or straw man bullshit, I want one SINGLE fucking reason Free Market Capitalism is inferior to ANY OTHER SYSTEM THAT HAS EVER BEEN TRIED.

Give me ONE fucking reason, and you win. ONE reason that cannot be argued.

Protip: This will be difficult because the success of capitalism is based on the assumption that the great majority of people are inherently motivated by profit, and as a result, the most capable and hardest working people will be the most likely to make the most of it. Those people are the "workers" and the "consumers" in your little unfinished equation.

>>3120851
Who can forget Bush's policy to exterminate all niggers, I guess that's what won him the racist vote.

>>3120851

The great democratic slander. It's funny coming from them. Seeing as they WERE openly racist then. The "Southern strategy" has no empirical support.

>The Southern Strategy

>>3120830
Use the google capitalist scum

http://www.google.com/search?q=shortage+of+doctors&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mo
zilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

>>3120794

You're misguiding your accusations. If businesses focused on what was always right for the individual consumer, they would be out of business in no time.

>>3120861

Samefag here. The problem with democrats is they keep on trying to get noble guys like McGovern into office, instead of getting average pricks into office like Reagan and Bush.

It's the whole electability vs. good governance thing.

>>3120818

The revisionist history of Nixon has been getting out of hand lately. As a libertarianfag, I feel obligated to remind you that profitable trade with China didn't start until the Carter Administration, the EPA was the work of a Democratic Congress, and that Nixon was elected primarily due to the colossal fuckup that was the Vietnam war and the backlash against it. In fact, Nixon was elected essentially the same way Obama was. People were tired of the devil they knew.

To all the conservatives in this thread who think socialized healthcare is a bad idea, consider this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/08/health/webmd/main3689315.shtml

Out of all the civilized nations in the world, we have the largest amounts of preventable deaths. Just consider that.

>>3120574
>7.5% UNEMPLOYMENT

Try 18% and growing.

The SGS Alternate Unemployment Rate reflects current unemployment reporting methodology adjusted for SGS-estimated "discouraged workers" defined away during the Clinton Administration added to the existing BLS estimates of level U-6 unemployment.

>>3120853

Poverty is poverty. What definition do you want to use, what goalpost do you want to move to?

>>3120918

Damn, I'm tired of this healthcare bullshit. Either you're a cool dude and can afford it or you should fucking die.

I'm serious, faggots who bitch need to go for a jog. I hate them, please die. Good thing I'm a sexy long-haired beast with plenty of muscle and get pussy at the drop of a hat or else I'd be in the same boat as you bitch-fags.

Damn, I'm good.

>>3120918
So by paying higher taxes, people can AFFORD health care? Oh wait, you'll just hike the tax on the rich, you commie scum.

>>3120875
The 1968 election was the first election where the South turned completely red.. Something to do with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Nixon used the South's racial angst to win the former democrats over.

>>3120925

In other words, the "unemployment rate" used in the U.S. only counts people who have actively looked for a job in the last 6 months. It doesn't count those who stopped looking because there were no jobs to be had.

Those people are fucking unemployed. Fuck semantics.

>>3120812
Doctors in general use a clever licensing scheme to make themselves rarer than they should be. Because if you didn't need to go to both college and med-school and just had to do a 3 to 5 year training program, there would be doctors.

Everywhere.

>>3120931

It's not poverty when you just bought new rims for your '88 Civic and nice camera-phone. Die, fag. I'm so glad my dick has pleased more women than yours or else I'd be a bitch-fag like you.

Damn, I'm good.

>>3120947

Republicans voted for the Civil Rights act at a higher percentage than democrats.

Try again moron.

>You have lived in the unbelievable and unprecedented expansion provided by monetarist policy for the past 25 years.

You mean the irresponsible deficit spending incurred by the Republicans?

>>3120884

Incorrect. A business exists to make a profit. They make a profit by providing goods to a consumer. If they did not make a profit, the person running the business would not make money, and thus have no reason to run the business, and thus have no reason to provide goods. You follow me here?

Secondly, capitalism operates on the principle of flexible pricing and profits. This is a genius strategy because it allows innovators to make great deals of money, stagnation to be inherently punished, and that prices are set by supply and demand, not by a central authority. As a result, capitalism is a distributed system, not a centralized one.

TL;DR: Capitalism is a torrent swarm filled with awesome seeds. Socialism is rapidshit with no premium accounts.

>>3120951

Truth. This is the monopoly that is higher-education. It's not that there's not enough means to get everyone through college, it's that college has been defined as the ONLY mean.

>>3120949

It counts people actively drawing on unemployment benefits.

If your benefits get denied or run out, then you're no longer considered.

>>3120969

That is correct, sir. Who needs a balanced budget like we had under Clintonian policy when we can just mortage our future to China?

Republicans really know what's best for america. Yeah.

>>3120971

I understand profit motive and I understand capitalist functions. Your previous statement made it sound as if businesses should focus on virtue rather than profit, which doesn't make sense, nor does it work.
I don't see how your reference translates to "capitalism fails"

>>3120951

Doctors and Lawyers have arcane knowledge that the average joe doesn't understand. If they fuck up, it kills people/ruins lives.

They need to be highly educated.

>>3121000

Highly educated as doctors.

I'll take someone with 5 years in medical school over someone with 4 years in college and 4 years of medical school.

>>3120964
Congress doesn't elect the president. The South was a democratic stronghold. It was also an extremely racist place. However, their racism outweighed their democratic values. When the government began forcing them to integrate their schools, they embraced the idea of "State's rights." What they really meant was "State's Right to Segregate" but that is irrelevant now. Nixon used that anger to his advantage and pummeled the shit out of Humphrey and McGovern.

>>3121018

Nixon enforced the desegregation orders.

Keep trying faggot.

Maybe this time as anon again?

>>3121000
In Deutschland med school starts as an undergraduate. Bumping medical schools from an exclusively graduate-level institution would be a nice change in America.

>>3120818
>Richard Nixon was a great president.

President Nixon: Say that I'd tell him I have doubts about it. Now you give me your judgment. You know I'm not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.

Ehrlichman: It's a private enterprise one.

President Nixon: Well, that appeals to me.

Ehrlichman: Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can do it... I had Edgar Kaiser come in and talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because the less care they give them, the more money they make... and the incentives run the right way.

President Nixon: Not bad.

FUCK THAT NIGGER.

>>3120918

Please, not the facts! Anything but the facts! That's the last thing this discussion needs right now!

>>3120971
But do businesses make the optimal amount of profit or are they by necessity run by people who are self interested and then form groups to make sure the company profits them without necessarily profiting. A business exists to make a person or a group of people profit, businesses are not "real" they are an idea and underlying that idea are people who scheme to try to get the most from the company.

Sometimes people profit when the company does. Other times they profit when it doesn't.

"principle of flexible pricing and profits"

No. Lol. It operates under systems of private law where businesses are often able to coerce prices by controlling supplies or making exclusive distribution contracts that prohibit competition outright. And if they don't then you can just set up a Marketing Promotion Fund and allocate money from it in such a way that harms business partners from operating freely, or selling below what we call:

MRP. Minimum Resale Price. A price enforced on a secondhand person either by law or by market power.

Market power is always used to make things less optimal for the economy as a whole and more optimal for the company but the company already is not optimal because people are siphoning from it, trying to profit from its operations, and generally being people.

In short, companies are like small governments with no transparency striving for many objectives and seldom meeting their goals but diffusing the blame through bureaucracies which are designed to hide the fact that People are making Decisions involving Power.

>>3121037
I am not calling Nixon a racist. I have nothing but admiration for his cynical manipulation of stupid people. However, it is a commonly accepted fact that he used racism for his benefit.

>>3120918

The US has the highest minority population including an African-American population with an AIDs-rate similar to a sub-Saharan African nation.

"Preventable Death" includes things like accidents and suicides. Nothing to do with health care.

Try again.

I am not a troll.

CB, something that's been bothering me is that I don't understand how free market forces actually affect the medical world.

I mean, doctors don't appear to be influenced by market forces because they're not actually in a market. When was the last time you shopped for a doctor? Rather, doctors are paid by insurance companies (and I don't mean on salary, they get their money from insurance companies) and these companies are something like a "proxy" and are the ones affected by the market.

The doctor's only job is to get you healthy again and get you out as soon as possible, or get you what you need. Often times, they can't do it because the insurance company the patient is under is unwilling to pay for it and then the patient goes off untreated and gets further ill/dies and we get this moral debate.

However, if the doctor made the right calls it wouldn't be his fault but the insurance company's. Its likely that the patient/their family will sue for damages on negligence and the insurance company will lose an extensive amount of money, the cost of which will be burdened by other customers under the insurer.

Now, if the doctor had indeed screwed up, the damages would be on him and not the insurance company. THEY would be paying for the lawsuit and since all doctors know this (or at least I hope they do) they will do their job because they know that if they screw up it will cost them much more than a simple citation.

>>3121088

mootblockinglikraroaungraoemgr

So then, it still appears that only insurance companies are affected by market forces (since insurance companies compete) but the doctors themselves will be held up to a high standard of care regardless of who pays them because they know if they screw up the legal system will come down on them.

If there was a UHC, it would do away with the insurance companies and actually allow the doctors that do do a good job treat their patients and such patients, who would have normally been denied healthcare, would not being suing and thus not be burdening other people with the costs of litigation.

Of course there will be bad doctors and worse healthcare, but they exist regardless of whether or not there is UHC. The difference (at least in my eyes) in our current system and a UHC system is that the costs of untreated patients lawsuits are done away with.

Its likely that I'm missing something. I'm hoping you can tell me what.

>>3120996
FUCK YEAH, SACKING THE OIL RESERVES! FUCK YEAH, DoM ACT!! FUCK YEAH, GETTING US INTO BOSNIA!!! FUCK YEAH, LYING UNDER OATH!!!! FUCK YEAH, AWB!!!!! FUCK YEAH, RIDING ON A HIGHER AVERAGE OF WORKED HOURS FOR THE AVERAGE EMPLOYEE!!!!!! FUCK YEAH, DMCA!!!!!!!

>>3121057

> No. Lol. It operates under systems of private law where businesses are often able to coerce prices by controlling supplies or making exclusive distribution contracts that prohibit competition outright. And if they don't then you can just set up a Marketing Promotion Fund and allocate money from it in such a way that harms business partners from operating freely, or selling below what we call:

There is no private law, and when you are in business to make profit, you do not harm your partners, you harm your competitors, it's the name of the game.

> MRP. Minimum Resale Price. A price enforced on a secondhand person either by law or by market power.

You mean MSRP, Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price.

> Market power is always used to make things less optimal for the economy as a whole and more optimal for the company but the company already is not optimal because people are siphoning from it, trying to profit from its operations, and generally being people.

You are correct, this is exactly why corporations are sub-optimal. Now tell me, are all your comments "corporations bad! I have no other workable solutions, however!" like this one?

>>3121069
>>3121069

Commonly accepted by whom? People with an AGENDA without empirical support.

I've knocked down EVERY bullshit line you've spouted in this thread. You are now reduced to "Nixon used a racist campaign because I said so".

>>3121088

That's because our system is NOT a free market system. It's been distorted with a tax system that favors employer based health coverage and insurance companies bound to single states or regions.

Competition is difficult and pricing impossible.

This is all caused by government distortion.

>>3120996
Clinton was the best republican president ever. If more republicans were like him the GOP wouldn't be in such a bad shape right now.

>>3121088

>When was the last time you shopped for a doctor?

All the time.

A perfect example of this is LASIK surgery, plastic surgery, dentistry and optometry.

They are all medical fields and all compete with pricing and advertising on the open market.

More traditional health care isn't competitive because of reasons that you stated. The consumer of health care is decoupled from its cost. The insurance company itself is the one that must make pricing arrangements.

In order to have a more efficient system, we need something like a high deductible insurance coverage, bought by individuals coupled, with a tax-free individual health savings account.

>>3121127
Ken Mehlman accepted it. He even apologized for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302342.html

>>3120189
You will also notice that everything IMPORTANT is heavy with Government.

Military. Yup.
Transportation. Yup.
Education. 90%+
Healthcare. Heavy Regulation / Funding
Fire? Yup
Police? Yup
Power & Water? Heavily regulated.

For something so "inefficient" it really seems to control most of the important stuff leaving the Making Shiny Things to private sector.

>>3121080

HINT: Deaths caused by an incurable illness are not a part of the preventable death statistic.

Also: Other countries have suicides and car accidents too.

mootbloxcocks

>>3121179

No.

>You will also notice that everything IMPORTANT is heavy with Government.

>>3121142
See:
>>3121111
More Republicans and Democrats need to stop compromising in the face of an election, lobbyists, and difficult choices. Fucking faggots.

>>3121193
You are basically asking politicians to stop being politicians. They won't stop, by the way.

>>3121179
That doesn't mean it's right for it to do so, or more effective for it to do so.

>>3121037
He played them. For political gain.

We *are* talking about Nixon.

>>3121177

"Certain candidates"

Kissing NAACP ass.

Worthless overture.

>>3121127
> People with an AGENDA without empirical support.
Don't worry about CB, he just caught a glimpse of himself in the mirror and, well, you know how parrots can be.

BTW: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-07-14-GOP-racial-politics_x.htm

>>3121189
Um. How not for any of those?

>>3121219
OHHH The big scary NAACP! They are almost as powerful as ACORN! Hide the white wimmin!

>>3121243

No content in this article or the speech.

IT was base pandering in pathetic attempt to get party-machine democratic votes.

>>3121264
You didn't reply to my zinger! I thought it was pretty clever, personally.

>tl;dr: The GOP's hatred of UHC is rooted in political necessity and not actual fact.

No political spin here at all. Certainly not a case of business as usual left-leaning individual trying to invalidate an argument based solely on misrepresenting the opposition's case by presenting a straw-man logical fallacy. Nope. Carry on boys. Our work is done here.

>>3121245

Transportation:

Airlines: no
Commercial Shipping: no
Railroads: no

Housing: no
Food: no
Clothing: no

>>3121207
I know, it makes me sadface. There's only a few with balls left. Ron Paul, some Demolican from Utah who's name escapes me, and Alan Keyes. Sort of a random list, but I'm tired and have a lab tomorrow. Night.

>>3121300
lol but the government regulates all those industries (except maybe clothes). So yes everything important is in fact heavy with government.

The government IS a corporation. They are both vulnerable to corruption. The difference is that ultimately, YOU the consumer have the power to not buy a product from a corporation that you don't like. On the other hand, the government just takes your money up front, then spends it on something you may or may not want, and if you try to not pay them for this thing you may or may not want, they throw you in jail.

I love how silly Americans rage and spit at each other based on their hallucinations of what this creature called universal healthcare is :) I live in a shitty post-communist country. Our doctors are great and in demand in richer countries. I have stayed at cozy, comfortable hospitals with caring expert doctors for free. I can afford psychiatric meds to be a contributing member of society. I can register to see a doctor TOMORROW. If I want to, I can register at a private clinic, but I don't, because my ex-friend who's too paranoid to get OH NOES PUBLIC HEALTHCARE doesn't get any benefits and the people there are way bitchier. I have many friends whose parents are doctors at public clinics, and they're well-off, well-adjusted and content with their lot. As I am with the doctors that care for me.

FUCK YOU AMERICANS FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU

>>3121300

>Airlines: no
>Commercial Shipping: no
>Railroads: no

not really

>>3120669
Didn't say the corporations should run the country, dumbass. l believe it should be in the hands of the common people. (lol as if)

>>3121538

So champ. Where is this land of milk and honey where you live?

>>3123098
Not the person you're quoting but I live in Estonia and, even though I'm not aware of any non-specialized private clinics here, it's pretty much how that guy describes it.

But I do understand the Amerifag point of view. Higher taxes, pretty scary, huh? Nonetheless, I earn around $5000 per month, get universal healthcare, live in a way cheaper society as you do and overall enjoy life.

Enjoy your ronery.

>>3123098
Lithuania. Pretty embarrassing to live in otherwise.

>>3123130
Hello, brother!

Fiscal motivation in marketised HC is to have people buying medicine and care, which means getting sick is profitable

Fiscal motivation in socialised HC is for the government to save on expenditure, which means keeping people healthy is cheapest

I'm not even going to read this thread because I know its nothing but shit.

I'm just going to explain why socialized medicine cannot work in America the way people think it will work.

The costs of medical care in America is the highest in the world. It would be impossible for the government to pay for this without going bankrupt.

I live in the US and used to work in the medical billing field. A tissue in the E.R. costs $30 in the state of AZ (because they charge for the entire box) for somebody with insurance..

If they don't have insurance, the state pays for it. Until they get shit like this worked out, there will be no reform. A box of tissues does not cost fucking $30

socialized medicine could never work in the USA without a HUGE amount of reform to the American tort system. Which liberals in the USA seem to be universally opposed to.

If insurance companies continue to charge what they do, both for malpractice insurance and medical coverage, there cannot be inexpensive medicine that the government could afford. How the fuck could this system work if you can recieve free medical care, and then sue for millions of dollars over something like an ugly scar you got from your free, life-saving surgery?

People are reading into this liberal vs. conservative bullshit too much. The real problem of the matter is that it would take a incredible effort and drastic reform to pretty much every law in the country to make socialized medicine work.

The result? You'd have something like the VA hospitals, only free for everyone. Enjoying your 8 hour wait in the ER and stacks of paperwork.

Fuck, every American KNOWS that the government is fucking awesomely good at running hospitals, amirite?

>>3123172
We're already broke, we're already socialists at this point, anyway.

>The real problem of the matter is that it would take a incredible effort and drastic reform to pretty much every law in the country to make socialized medicine work.

Then why not lobby for people to do it?

>The result? You'd have something like the VA hospitals, only free for everyone. Enjoying your 8 hour wait in the ER and stacks of paperwork.

Yeah, you're right. VA hospitals DO suck. It'd be a shame if they all turned to this, when we finally do have UHC. Something tells me when UHC does roll around; it won't be nearly as bad as VA hospitals though. I mean, those are for vets, and Uncle Sam honestly couldn't give a fuck less. It's only media attention that's lead to recent steps to change veteran health care.

At least everyone could get it, though.

>>3123213
We pretty much have de-facto socialized medicine in the USA anyways. One of the major reasons why healthcare is so expensive, and its on the rise is due to malpractice insurance costs and all the other legal overhead and costs needed to run a fucking hospital or even a free clinic. Its not the nurse's unions or EMS unions breaking the bank, its this malpractice insurance that goes up everytime some dumb bitch sues the hospital for something stupid. Well, frivious lawsuits are one factor in the USA, because we don't have a "loser pays" type tort system like the UK does.

Now lemme tl;dr some more to why healthcare is truely as fucking outrageous as it is. Ok, its expensive because of that. So when some poor family or some street bum comes into the ER and receives the same quality healthcare a rich guy does, and they don't pay. They can't afford it, and they don't give a fuck if their credit is ruined, they can't afford that 10,000$ bill for that emergency surgery they needed.

So, the hospital loses profit, so they need to raise the costs even higher. This results in even more people not able or willing to pay. Then some dude doesn't pay for surgery, sues and gets 10 million because the doctor said some unprofessional shit to him about his tiny cock when he was wasn't quite completely sedated, ect.

Its a vicious cycle, the costs go up and in the end, only the middle-class and wealthier ever pay for medical treatment anyways. The very poor get whatever attention they need, because the hospital cannot refuse treatment because they cannot afford it.

So the system as it stands, it provides high-quality healthcare to people for free anyways, and somebody else foots the bill. Its not much different then having a bunch of government-run hospitals that are constantly on a budget crunch, constantly overwhelmed with paitents, and staffed with government employees that cannot hardly ever be fired, like the VA or military hospitals and free clinics are not.

>>3123252
that's not totally accurate. that $10,000 bill isn't forgotten. it's not like the hospital is like "lol ur too poor u dont give a shit" and those poor people don't have to pay.

>>3123270
Yeah, they will send that same bill to that one dude every month for the rest of that paitent's life, but he's never going to pay it, and when he dies, the hospital *might* collect on that debt.

Anyways, the hobo or crackhead off the street isn't going to even have an address or even an ID card. He isn't going to pay for shit, bro.

I wish I had found this thread earlier, but oh well.

I have one thing to say and I will say it in caps so that people skimming down the thread will see it.

ALL OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRIES PAY LESS HEALTHCARE TAXES PER CAPITA THAN THE US.

That's right, every single other healthcare system in the world costs less in tax dollars than our own, even the most badly managed and poorly designed ones. Our government spends the most per capita on healthcare in the world.

The system as it stands isn't just less efficient than a universal system, it also costs more than it would cost to administer a universal system. This is because our system is an insanely bureaucratic monster of a hybrid between the free market and the government. It's badly desgned and it needs to go. This is fully in line with economic conservative values.

The solution lies in attacking the problems outlined in >>3123172 head-on, and adopting a UHC model based on a successful transition from private to public in another country.

>>3123366
Thats what I said.

Socialized healthcare just isn't possible with the way the world works in this country. Its not about freemarket vs government or anything else, its about the underlying problems of our fucked up tort laws (litigation capital of the world is the US, more lawyers per capital then anywhere else, thanks) our fucked up insurance companies, insurance fraud and a dozen other somewhat less significant problems that add up to a monsterously overpriced healthcare system.

We have a very high-quality healthcare system, dispite what you might think. Its just incredibly expensive for no good reason at all.

I think privately run hospitals could exisit alongside public government-run hospitals if we just fixed the underlying problems, espeically the tort system.

Thing is, too many people are getting rich off civil litigation in this country for any tort-reform act to ever pass. The lobbyists and lawyers are just too powerful. It will never happen, espeically not with a democrat in office.

>>3123366
this, except that transitioning to a fully market-based system would work tons better.
Socialized systems become vastly more inefficient with size because of bureaucracy and a couple of other things.
A country such as the US would have massive expenses for a UHC system. It might be cheaper than today's system, which is a complete clusterfuck, but at the expense of quality (the study that said that the US only has the 37th best HC system in the world is full of methodological flaws; the US has great health care in terms of quality).

A free market-solution would lead to a lot of effective ways to finance health care. I found this article very interesting: http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html

>160 posts and 4 image replies omitted.
This troll will be the one who brings balance to /r9k/.

>>3123594
Fuck, now all I can think is "Midichlorians."

Spoilers: None of your opinions will ever matter. Nothing is going to change, no matter how many times you complain and 'vote'. The bureaucracy is self-running, just a disgusting mess of corporatism trying to keep up a facade of democracy in this country. You're all about 200 years too late.

>>3123617
truer words are seldom spoken. Get some people and secede from the nation if you want any degree of control over issues like these. The state sure as hell isn't going to let go of it.

>>3123628
Of course, the country with the world's largest army probably isn't a good country to piss off by bereaving it of its precious slave-citizens.

Just posting to say that pre obama's election capitalistbastard was a piece of shit GOP supporter that was proven wrong about everything he ever deemed fact, and went into hiding for a month when the elections were over. Another failure of private education systems in America.

>>3123650
Now, THERE'S a government failure if there ever was one. Together with intellectual property/monopoly, public schooling in the USA has made a very well-educated people into a people stereotyped as being ignorant of everything beyond the nearest shopping mall.

>>3123637
Probably not, but cowering in a corner and giving up like some mutt before even getting hit or scolded is a worse fate. Cowards die a thousand deaths, and what have you.

I suggest you smart guys come to Texas. The majority are stupid christfags that can be easily manipulated and controlled so long as you talk long, use big words, and mention God in the concept of you being ordained by God. Getting a clergyman or priest on your side would make things even easier.

>>3123695
It sounds crazy, but I think kids would be better off without mandatory public schooling, it's one of these things that is just so fucked up, no one learns anything except how to tell teachers to fuck off in public school.

If kids didn't waste time in school they could be picking up professions, and if they really wanted to study, libraries are always around right?

>>3123723
And, you know, private schools. That, if public schools were a thing of yesterday, would be dirt cheap, forced by competition to continually improve themselves, and free to innovate an area where significant progress hasn't been made for the last 200 years, schooling.

Socialism: The government taking 15 million dollars and spreading it amongst thousands of poor people through social welfare, because the people of the country want it like that

Liberalism: The government taking 15 million dollars and giving it to one poor person to settle a frivious lawsuit because 12 people in a courtroom wanted it like that.

As a Britfag, I was actually extremely surprised that America didn't have free healthcare when I was told this. I just assumed that it was something that all western civilisations had.

Why you would have a welfare system and not a healthcare system?

>>3123771
welfare in this country is extremely limited as well

>>3123771
so that people who are made poorer by taxation and economic intervention can get back some of their taxes to purchase health care made expensive by government intervention.
Duh!

>>3123771
Jesus shit have you read any part of this thread at all?

There is about a dozen tl;drs explaining why the healthcare system in the USA is the way it is.

Anyways, how could you think the USA could afford universal healthcare when our taxes are low and everything is less expensive then in europe? (Except the things in europe that are subsidized or free from the government, healthcare, ect.)