ITT OP is 16 years old

I think people who can't differentiate between affect and effect should be disenfranchised.

Remove age-based restrictions on voting, replace with competency tests on basic civics, economics, logic, etc.

Honestly. Honestly. You're going to claim that underaged people should be able to take a test and prove that they're not stupid, but say that girls aren't able to be included? You've just lost whatever credibility your claim might have had by suggesting that gender makes a difference.

>>2496195
I think ALL people should have to take a test, but then immigrants, aspies, and homosexuals wouldn't get to vote. And that's not "fair."

OP is the same under age faggot from yesterday
over 9000 percent chance

>>2496172
SO WAT! SO WAT! :!

>>2496188
They did that in the Jim Crow south back in the day.

in b4 Nickelodeon if kids could vote shit

Set everything to 21. Voting, drinking, warfighting, driving, fucking, all of it!!!!!

18 is fine. 16 year-olds tend to still be caught up in high school bullshit. Once you get dumped out on your ass and are expected to work and take care of yourself (read: after high school) and you realize that the world is more than petty high school popularity contests.. that's when you should vote. Not before.

Yes, granted, there are some intelligent kids in high school. I was one of them. But I've matured immeasurably over the last 5 or so years (I'm 22 now), and even though I voted in the 2004 election, and I'm glad I was able to, I still don't think I understood quite as much about politics as I do now.

What makes me REALLY angry is old people who vote for whoever shares their religious views, or whoever has a Jewish-sounding last name (true fucking story).

16 year olds can't do anything that anyone really gives a shit about and have no real responsibilities.

>>2496337
See, the dilemma for me is that 16 year olds can work. The have to pay taxes, and therefore they should be represented. However, 16 year olds are also retards.

No, voting is for faggots anyways.

Every 16 year old in the world thinks they know how to fix all of the world's problems aka: they are idealistic morons that should not beable to vote.

>>2496396

I don't think 16 year olds are any less retarded than college freshmen, and if they are retards, most of them will probably not vote.

>>2496396
The taxes that 16 year olds can potentially pay are the same ones foreigners can.

>>2496396
Very few 16 year olds work. Employers almost never hire them because 99% of 16 year olds are thought to be unrelible lazy dumbasses.

I should know, I was legally emancipated at the age of 16 and I basically had to live off of welfare while I went to school. I COULD NOT get a job, dispite being a legal adult for most intensive purposes.

That said, I don't think 16 year olds should beable to vote. 18 years is fine. Most of the problems and issues of the nation doesn't effect 16 year olds. They should not have any voice when it comes to how other people's lives should be run.

>and the eventual winner of elections effects a 16 year old as much as an 18 year old,

>and the eventual winner of elections effects a 16 year old as much as an 18 year old,

>elections effects a 16 year old

>effects

I move away from the mic to blok mutes

>>2496430
I assume that most 16 years olds are apathetic enough not to vote, and that the ones who would vote are either informed or at least have strongly held beliefs. I would prefer that they don't have the vote, but I can't really justify why they shouldn't, given our political history.

>>2496440
But our 16 year olds are citizens. Citizens who pay taxes should get to vote.

>>2496443
When I was 16, the only kids without a job were lazy, unreliable dumbasses. Anyways, issues affect them just like everybody else. They should have a say in how their tax dollars are spent, just like everybody else. What issues wouldn't affect them?

>>2496472
How old are you again? Because unless you were 16 back in the 80's you'd know its just about impossible for a 16 year old to find employment. Employers have to pay out the ass for liability coverage to employ underage workers and its not worth it to them. Unless your family runs some small business it just isn't happening.

Most issues don't effect 16 year olds because they are not legally able to do the things adults can. Can't drink, own weapons, get married, are'nt supposed to have sex or get pregant, can't buy or view porn, rent a car, or any vast number of issues. They can't join the military, eat at a bar or smoke. They are fucking minors.

Shit doesn't apply to them, so they should have no right to decide what should apply to other people. Who the fuck is a 16 year old to decide on issues that only apply to adults?

How about making it so only legally emancipated minors can register to vote?

>>2496517
Fine, I'm 16. But so what? That doesn't effect my opinion.

>>2496517
I'm 29 and my first job was as a technician diagnosing failures in circuitboards in a co-op program. Most of my peers had jobs in restaurants or retail.

>Most issues don't effect 16 year olds because they are not legally able to do the things adults can.
Because they aren't represented in government, and don't get a say about what they can or cannot do.

>Can't drink
Neither can 20 year olds, so let's take their vote away too?

>own weapons
Untrue. There are young rednecks all over murrica that legally possess firearms for hunting.

>get married
I married my wife when she was 17

>are'nt supposed to have sex
Says what fucking church? In my state, the age of consent is 16.

>get pregant
I'm pretty sure this is legal in most states. If pregnancy was a condition for voting, then 12 year olds could vote.

>can't buy or view porn
They can't be sold porn. When was the last time a kid was arrested for having porn, exactly?

>rent a car
Is congress balls-deep in a rental car controversy right now?


>or any vast number of issues.


>They can't join the military
The military will accept 17 year olds.

>eat at a bar
What? Yes they can, but most bar owners don't want them around, because they fag up the place and can't buy alcohol.

>or smoke.
Oh right, nobody in high school smokes. I forgot. Let's keep them from voting then.

>They are fucking minors.
Tax paying minors.

>Shit doesn't apply to them, so they should have no right to decide what should apply to other people.
Laws affect them as well, and even if they didn't, it would in a very short time. Don't I have the right to vote on issues relating to social security? I can't collect it for decades, assuming it's still there.

>Who the fuck is a 16 year old to decide on issues that only apply to adults?
You've failed to convince me that these issues only apply to adults.

>>2496569
Your opinion is stupid and a good example of why you should be at least 18 to vote unless you are legally emancipated.

You cannot even sign a binding contract at 16. Minors are called minors because they have not reached the age of majority yet. They are a marginal segment of the population and should not have any right to vote.

To be honest, I think everyone should have at least 5 years worth of working experience before voting, followed by a economics and civics test. Would weed out alot of the lazy asses and potheads who think they understand it all.

>>2496569
Don't hijack my argument, faggot.

>>2496597
You are arguing that the law is right because it is the law. 16 year olds can't vote because they are minors, and minors can't vote.

You're probably that 16 year old that was posting about trying to overthrow the movie ratings guidelines yesterday. How about you just keep up with your college work and stop worrying about this stuff? By the time the next presidential election rolls around, you'll be 20.

GUYS, I PAY SALES TAX AND GET SOME TAXES WITHHELD (LOL BUT I GET THE REFUNDED ANYWAY BECAUSE I ONLY WORK PART TIME) SO I SHOULD VOTE

>>2496633

I think you are the one I was actually having a conversation with. I am these posts:

>>2496396
>>2496472
>>2496595
>>2496605
>>2496619

>>2496601
Poll tests were removed because the southern states gave white people simple shit and blacks got stiffed with reciting the entire Constitution backwards or something.

>>2496649
Hey, maybe poor people and retirees shouldn't be able to vote either?

>>2496619
So change all the laws to make the age of majority at 16? Thats a little different.

So you want the law to change, you are arguing something thats in the framework of the law. You can't say "we should abolish all laws so minors can vote" thats fucking stupid.

>>2496595
Who the fuck cares if they work or not? Unless they are independant adults, they should not be allowed to vote. Maybe an emancipated minor could register to vote, but some punkass living with their parents should not beable to vote just because they pay taxes for their minimum wage job at Publix.

>>2496619
Congrats. You've managed to figure out that voting is another one of those things that is based off of an arbitrary attribute such as age.

You're an idiot. Being 18 may not make you magically mature, but the reason it's set there is because the majority of people are supposed to be capable of making informed decisions. Not everyone will be ready to at that age, and a good deal many might be ready before.

Unfortunately, we don't have some standardized system of tests which determine whether people are competent enough to vote. Such a thing would never be accepted, since a good deal many adults would be excluded as well. It's stupid, it's arbitrary, but it's the way things are and they're not going to change.

Everything should be 21. 18 year olds have proven themselves over and over again to be outright dumbasses.

Might as well make voting 13 while you are at it.

>>2496664
>>2496671

Oh, when I said "16 year olds can't vote because they are minors, and minors can't vote," it was to suggest that
>>2496597
was using circular logic when they justified preventing 16 year olds from voting by saying "Minors are called minors because they have not reached the age of majority yet."

My entire point is that we are violating the principle of "No taxation without representation." 16 year olds should either be able to vote, or be exempt from state and federal taxes.

I would rather they be exempt from taxation, because they are all retarded.

>>2496710
But taxation really doesn't come into play, does it? You don't need a job to vote. Any adult citizen is able to, regardless of whether they've paid any taxes.

the U.S.'s system of voting has never been about how best to choose representatives and officers. it has, ever since the rise of populism, been about cultivating a sense of political efficacy. Our voter registration is excellent to this end; we've had no recent cases of violent rebellion or substantial claims of disenfranchisement by the voting population. This is interesting, seeing as how the two major parties are both very authoritarian and economically right compared to most parties in western democracies...

>>2496654
No, sorry, I was just calling out the OP because of a post yesterday talking about how he was 16 and in college, and wanting to write a case against theatres for restricting access to R-rated films for 16 year olds, since it could be considered discrimination.

I replied in that thread about how I was also a young university student, and understood the whole, "Grrraahhhh ageism" complaint, but ultimately, there is not a lot that one exceptional teenager is going to be able to change. It's a matter of a few years until you're "free," and the law is really not going to change to accommodate you and the minority population of exceptionally intelligent/mature/whatever teenagers.

OMG I BOUGHT SOME CANDY WITH MY ALLOWANCE MONEY WHEN I WAS 5 Y/O AND PAID SALES TAX. I CAN'T VOTE EVEN THOUGH I WAS PROPPING UP THE MAN'S SYSTEM SINCE I WAS 5.

WTF TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

>>2496739
But it was a principle worth having a revolution over, wasn't it? It's still the slogan for people who are taxed but don't get to vote: felons, working minors, and residents of Washington D.C.

>>2496771
You can vote as soon as you pay your back-taxes with interest for all of those years you collected your allowance :)

>>2496771
Sales, property, and income tax have all been debated thoroughly in courts where it applies to representation in several countries for centuries. Your strawman isn't, although intended to be mocking, isn't as far off base as you intended it to be.

>>2496775
Just because we've done so in the past doesn't make it a good reason, or make the reasons for it then applicable to today. Felons have lost the right to vote by violating the laws that were set down. In the old days, criminals were often executed or sent off to penal colonies. We're a bit more humane than that, but it doesn't mean they should be deciding what is best for the country. As for the people in D.C., while it's true that they don't have any electoral votes, they're still represented through other aspects of voting. the President is not the only thing you vote on. As for minors, just because you can hold a a job does not mean you are able to make an informed decision as to what is good for the country. Most kids that age aren't making so much money that they even have to pay taxes, anyway (under $9000/year, I think?).

>>2496850
Felons aren't disenfranchised in every state, or for every election. Also, many laws affect them directly, and they are still adult tax-paying citizens who have no say in their government. I don't think it's right that they cannot vote.

Washington D.C. residents get to vote on local issues only, but I don't understand how law-abiding, adult, tax-paying citizens cannot vote for their president. "Other ways" just doesn't cut it.

And, again, I don't want 16 year olds to be able to vote, but I still think it's wrong in American society. If we disenfranchise them because they get their income taxes back at the end of the year, then what about poor people and retirees?

>>2496671

The reason why it is 18 is because everyone thought 21 was when most people were mature, but decided that if you are old enough to die for your country then you should have some say in who sends you off to war.

Most of us agree a line has to be drawn somewhere right? And that if you give 16 year olds the vote, there will eventually be a 14 year old fag wanting it

>>2496906
Well, if I move fifteen feet to my right, I'll be in my yard. If I move thirty feet, I'll be in my neighbor's bedroom and she will call the police. Does this mean I should stay out of my yard?

If 14 year olds could work, then maybe they should get to vote also. But they can do neither, so fuck them.

>>2496894
I'm not even going to bother arguing about the felons.

Huh, actually, D.C. can vote in presidential elections. Should've known that. 23rd amendment gives them that right. So, they are represented.

Also, you don't even need to file a tax return if you make under 9,000 in the year. So they just don't have the government withhold anything. Simple enough.

>>2496929
But if taxable income is the qualifier, then do the unemployed get to vote?

16 year olds are in general stupid as fuck, and don't give a shit about politics because politics don't effect them in any way. Most 18 year olds are the same way. Most people my age don't give a shti, or aren't informed at all (not that teh general public is). If anything, I say raise the voting age. The only reason that it was lowered is because everyone was butthurt about Vietnam.

>>2497002
Oh my, look at me fail at typing.

>>2496894
If people aren't going to play by the rules, why let them have a part in making them. Fuck felons.

>>2497020
Just because it's the law doesn't make it right. The only way to make it right is to change the law. The only people empowered to change the law are voters and their representatives. The people who best understand what makes a law wrong are the people that have been on the wrong side of that law.

I wonder, if it were put to a popular vote, if marijuana would be legalized? I know with absolute certainty how it would turn out if people incarcerated from possession charges were allowed to vote.

The point is, in a free society, every adult is represented in government. Even the ones we don't like.

>>2497105
Just because it's the law doesn't mean it's wrong, either. Laws tend to be in place because that's what people have voted on. If enough people disagreed with it, the laws would be changed. Weed still hasn't been legalized, and it's not just because felons aren't allowed to vote on the issue. And even if it were, they chose to break the law instead of get it changed. That kind of person doesn't deserve the right to vote.

The less idiots who vote the better.

>>2497147
The problem being that government is reluctant to give up power. However, I'm not saying every law is wrong; of course not.

However, at what level does breaking the law prevent you from being represented in government? Treason? Murder? Grand theft? Petty theft? Public urination? Speeding? Truancy?

Even still, there are plenty of good reasons to break laws; especially bad ones. Protesting outside of a "free speech zone" at the RNC would get you a trip to jail, but if somebody did it as an act of civil disobedience, I can't justify stripping away their right to vote.

>>2497188
The hell are you talking about? It doesn't mean that laws that have become unfavorable won't be repealed. If the attempts to get the law changed keep failing, it's probably because the majority doesn't agree with changing it.

What you're talking about concerning breaking laws is something called 'mitigating circumstances'. These are taken into account during trials. If the person is still found to be guilty (by his own peers, not the government), then the punishment is given. The consequences of breaking these laws are also voted upon. Ultimately, voting is what determines what crimes are bad enough to warrant having voting rights revoked.

voting standards test: those who pass may vote!

who approves which questions are used? Anyone who seeks to participate! So one election is to decide what qualities permits one to vote, and the next election, with only those meeting the qualities decided by the public themselves, vote for the operators of the country! Fantastic.

In a minarchist or anarchist government, I would not deny children of any age to vote.

>>2497221
There are some laws that will never be repealed because it would be political suicide for the speak rep to speak out. Also, there is an unfortunate level of corruption in our congress.

But most importantly, the disenfranchised voters don't get to pick who their representatives are. Also, poor people are more likely to resort to crime, and therefore the most likely to be voiceless. This slants representation to the rich and soccer moms.

>>2497233
How about you just have to have a high school diploma to vote? Could make the voter's test a requirment for graduation.

For the scientific record, the human brain does not stop growing until 25. The last parts to grow concern personality developments.

Really, if its not going to be merit based, it should at LEAST be 25. 18 is arbitrary when it needn't be an arbitrary decision.

really though, i don't think it makes much difference given our society. old people vote in droves; young people stay home and play play station. Lowering or raising would make no practical difference, and in fact, would only expound the bad decisions that stupid old people make. I'd rather have children voting, but of course then you have the problem of adult influence (vote McCain or no candy for you).

>>2497287
The problem is, that once you decide that it's ok to take away a group of adults' vote, for any reason, it's gone too far. Voting is at the very core of our political system; I won't play "just the tip" with my liberty.

>>2497293
>(vote McCain or no candy for you)
This is why anonymous voting has, and always will be, important.

Also, one last thing that pops in by 25 is the ability to plan life in a very long-term fashion.

>>2497287
HS diploma certifies to society a certain capability to work productively, while the goal of a merit based test would be to certify precisely the qualities it is we wish to see in the voters who elect. Their aims are different.

That's not to say we couldn't raise the bar entirely on our education system, not in that we just exclude more, but that we raise the average capability to pass tougher tests..tldr make our children smarter, wiser, and have a HS diploma come to represent a certain level of such qualities, rather than certifying the mere basic level of competence it does now.