In before 500 replies.

PROTIP - most young catholics aren't catholic. i should know. i go on Chirstmas so my parents don't bitch, and everyone in church in 40 years or older

I have friends who think like the people OP talks about.
retards.

penis

>>2473061
OP here.
I'm talking about people who legitly believe in Christianity, an just totally ignore it.

nice pic OP
reminds me of card crusher.

It doesnt doom gays. lern to read before you comment on something. Its not gays we dissagree with, its their actions. If you recall the actual passage that supposedly "dooms" gays, it was the city of sodom that was damned. BECAUSE IT WAS A FUCKING 24 HOUR GAY ORGY! If a gay person is gay but does not act that way, he may very well be saved, yet if a gay man parades around the same way as say, men in the castro district of san francisco, yes he is sinful. And so many people are corrupted to your way of thought, that all gays are doomed, that they say they dissagree with the church. If a person is part of the catholic belief but disagree with something, they do something called discerning in which you try to understand deeper the churches say on it. Hope i provided some clarity. I speak only in defense of what I believe.

>>2473158
I thought the Pope was god's man on earth?
Surely God can't be wrong?

Oh, and if God picks the Pope, why do they vote on it?

>>2473078
yo, I'm a catholic.

As much as it is the fashion of our days, you just gotta stop thinking like a retarded atheist.
Catholicism isn't just about the pope and gay rights: it is about a thousand of complex and particular dogmas, such as saints and the sacrament.
Also, there are no rule such as "obey the pope as a dog obeys it master". He is the head of the church in theological matters - but on earthly matters i am free to have my own opinion, as the primary teachings of catholicism involve free will and 'don't judge your brother, leave that to god'.

to give you a good example: You were born on your country, and you have your country's culture. Your president keeps changing, however, and if someday your government says something you completely disagree about, it doesn't mean you're not american or chinese or whatever you are anymore. You will always belong to it.

stop being yet another atheist pussy. real religions aren't "omg pray and obey". bitch about scientology all you want - but think a little before you try to resume 1000-year-old religions as a whole into a simple critic, because it just won't work.

>>2473180
God is infalliable, man however is not. He can influence them, yet other factors may get in the way. yes i know people are gonna say, well why doesnt He get them out of the way? point is, we dont know, we are not supposed to know. Things work out the way they do for a reason. We may not know it now, but ever hardship and pain and tribulation has its place in the ultimate plan.

>>2473209hardship, pain, master plan

The planmaker is an asshole.

>>2473070
I have friends who think like the OP.
retards.

>penis

COCKS

fixed that for you.

>>2473152

Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming your a christfag... you seem to admit that some people cannot help their being gay. I'm going to assume that you would agree with the statement that some people are born gay. If that's the case, why would God do that to some people? Why would he make it so that some people are born with such conflicting sexual urges? It seems rather cruel, almost like they're being teased. Also, that's hardly fair; they get a shitty starting point in life but are given the exact same punishments and rewards as everyone else.

>>2473158
>>2473152

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.' (Leviticus 20:13)

Oh, I'm sorry, what?

>>2473219
no. Its just that people tend to focus more on the negative then the good. Who cares if your girlfriend broke up with you, you stand here today alive. She had her part in your life and it was to break your heart and you have your part, who knows what it will be but everyone is a piece of the puzzle

>>2473180
dude, do you know what you're talking about?
because it seems you have no idea of what you're criticizing.

actually, it seems you don't even know what catholics think about god.

One might even think you are actually criticizing one of the biggest and more complex religions in the world without even reading a book or two about it.

>>2473158 for all I know
Most important phrase in this post. The Vatican has always been a money-leeching, bible-editing corrupt organisation and Catholicism is a joke. Want to know why Catholic churches have all that gold? Because they take their parish's money. Want to know why they take money? Because they want gold. Even the whole anti-abortion/anti-contraception thing was to keep families large and thus poor, desperate and uneducated. For centuries they have kept people poor in as many ways as humanly possible: they fuck you with their dogma and then ask you to pay for it. It wasn't too long ago that you could BUY passage into heaven by giving the church a lump sum of money. It sickens me.

And burning books is for scumbags, you pissant.

>>2473241
It's just their part to play in the world. They can choose to act on it, or they can choose to deal with it. Men have the option to control themselves from unbelievable promiscuity, and though some people dont, some do. Gay people should be able to. Its just another trait like brown hair or freckles, theres just more you can do with it

>>2473259

Nigra you best be trollin.

Dude, the pope is not infallible. If he says "That porterhouse steak was divine!" the church does not adopt a new theological stance. The pope_can_ make 'infallible' pronouncements though. That's 'dogma' and part of Catholicism 101.

And even infallibility isn't all it's cracked up to be. The 19th century papal bull on the immaculate conception is considered infallible. (which is ironic since they knew by then that it was actually mostly a translation error). But I know more than one Catholic who does not believe in it and who's priests didn't have a problem with that.

The more moderate, down-to-earth way of looking at it is that the 'infallible' stuff is stuff you should, ideally, believe in. But you can't be _required_ to because you're a human and you're fallible. You should acknowledge that the Church was infallible in saying so, though. Which is basically saying "Yeah okay if I knew everything that God does and understood his plan perfectly I'd probably agree with you."

>>2473250most complex

Reactionimage.dohohoho.jpg

No seriously, catholicism is nothing more than pomp and clothing.

PROTIP: the old testament doesn't really matter for catholics.
They believe in Jesus, so they base their religion on the New one instead.

>>2473283
Mkay, so I'm so fallible, that I can now say "Sure, if I was god, I'd know I exist, but hey, I'm fallible, so I'm just gonna keep on trucking as a humanist."

>>2473259
They had reforms. Even the noblest of causes can fall to corruption. And catholics never re-wrote the bible, different sects that broke away from the main church did. Protestants rewrote the bible to suit their needs, as did angelicans, etc. thats why there are so many version. Catholics however did not

>>2473287
So from where does you knowledge from catholic religion comes from again?

>>2473298
Oh, so Jesus was like "Forget all that stuff my dad said about gays before, he's cool now."

>>2473310
Yes they did. Several times.

>>2473330
from I'm hopingfully not as being the place of sameness as english of yours.

>>2473334
To be completly honest, americans and most of the english speaking world do not know what the old testament said. Through a translation error, the ten commandments were printed differently in modern times then in the original hebrew. Something my theology teacher told me.

>>2473334
No, he was like, "leave the judging to me and love your brother."
Seconding >>2473330, where did you learn about catholicism anyways?
(in b4 wikipedia)

>>2473355
old testament is suddenly reduced to ten commandments then?

>>2473283

Uh.. OP.. referring to "the Bible says.." as an argument against Catholics would seem to expose a fundamental misunderstanding on your part.

Catholicism has never held that the Bible has all the answers or that the Bible should be taken literally. That's Protestantism, man! Luther was the guy who basically said "the Bible is all you need".

The Catholics are the guys who say "No. We compiled the damn book in the first place and we know what parts are more important than others and that you can't take them out of context."

>>2473353
>>2473371
>>2473353
>>2473347

you seem to be running out of arguments.
just tell me plainly: did you study catholicism before coming here?
did you study the history of the bible?
did you actually read it?
are you just taking shit up from google?

are you 13yo?

>>2473395
OP here, big thanks for the clarification.
Protestants, explain yourselves.

Old testament god was a fucking asshole.

"Oh, these things I made are pissing me off, so instead of just changing them like the all powerful being I am, I'll just kill em all off. Except for like, a handful and some animals."

"Oh, they're all working together in harmony to build a tower to see me? Lol, I'll knock it down, then spread them to the far ends of the earth and make them speak different languages so they'll never work together and, as I am an all knowing being, I am allowing these changes knowing it will cause many, many deaths, and ethnocentrism."

I am suprised at the amount of catholics responding to a thread on 4chan. there is hope for us after all

>>2473405
you're calling samefag on not samefags.

>>2473405
I studied biblical history and I come from a catholic family. I would put money on you dying the same way as my Grandad did: Having his last rites read to him over and over again by someone who took his money that he could of spent on healthcare. Have fun with that.

>>2473405
Only to the Inquisitions, after that, I didn't have enough respect for you to continue bothering.
Nope.
Yep.
Nope.
Nope.

>>2473451
>>2473455
>>2473436
FUCKING CALLED IT
YES
SUCK MY HUGE DICK

>>2473395
God, thank you.
Well, I think I made my point at >>2473208, and I personally think that >>2473283 has a good point.
I don't agree much with Noko though, he/she says things like they were canonical, but they are pretty much his personal view on the matter.

>>2473259

Sounding a bit nuts there brah.

Donations aren't mandatory. But of course it would be nicer to donate some money ($5-20?). Gotta pay the bills man. Also to pay for repair & renovation of the building, community functions, priest's living expenses etc.

More importantly, help from the church goers is needed... the choir, altar boys/girls, readers, organizers and other people help run a mass.

A lot of the parishioners help out with cleaning too during off hours and stuff...

>>2473486
dude weak sauce......

>>2473241

Although I'm a christfag, I don't believe in persecuting gays (love thy neighbour, let he who is without sin, eating with sinners is awwright, etc). Having said that, the argument is that it's their cross to bear - some people are born ugly, some are born angry/otherwise emotionally volatile, and gay people are born gay.

The point is, you can use the bible to support nearly ANY viewpoint, no matter how insane. The fact that there are three verses in the bible damning gays (including leviticus, which is mostly ignored anyway), and thousands saying to "let it be" (including Jesus, who was especially keen on that idea), I'd have to say the sensible thing to do would be to listen to the THOUSANDS of passages rather than focusing on the three.

>>2473455
I studied the Inquisition as well. Exterminating Jews seems to be a common European hobby. Catholics were never that up to scratch at the whole 'obeying the New Testament' thing, which explains a few anons in this thread.

Love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek. Then torture the fuck out of everyone.

christianity like all organized religions has way to many flaws. accept agnosticism, that u cant know the truth, then pick a side, theist or atheist

>>2473516
Yes, the inquisitions, and indulgences completely robbed me of respect of the catholic church, as well as it's followers.

It's hard to defend that sort of bullshit.

>>2473516
alot of people seem to want to look to the past actions of the church. There were reforms because they were needed. Thats just how people were back then. this is how we are now.

>>2473538
i respect athiests more then agnostics. Choose a side, dont stand it the middle, thats the pussy way to go.

>>2473455

Funny, because when you meant the inquisition, lost respect for you tooooooooo >=^____^=<

no SHIT sherlock! tell, what do you look up to? to science?


about MONEY:
no-one is forced to pay in catholicism. You contribute whenever you like. (But let me tell you, when rich people donated lots of gold, and then saw this gold ornamenting those big, beautiful churches, they didn't feel robbed at all.)

or you'd suppose a church maintains itself by god's grace?

>>2473277

Yes. But there's a huge difference between promiscuity and being forced into a life of total abstinence to gain entrance into heaven. They're gay, the fact is that they aren't going to have a fulfilling relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and even if they had sex with someone of the opposite sex it would most likely feel empty to them. If it was just about getting laid, or they could have just as fulfilling relationships with people of the opposite sex, they wouldn't be pushing so hard for gay marriage in the states. So, why is it that God made it so that they could never be allowed to have a fulfilling relationship in the way that a straight couple can? I mean, the fact is that people's lives are far from equal, yet we're all treated equally when it comes to punishment. One man is born without any conflicting urges, and is placed into a life where he is nearly never confronted with temptation... leading a sinless life is a cake walk for him, not because of his will power but because of the situation he was born into. While another man is born with conflicting urges, and has temptation shoved into his face on a daily basis... had the sinless man been placed into this situation he wouldn't have the will power to handle it, yet the sinless man will go to heaven and the conflicted man will burn. It's not that one has a stronger will than the other, it's just a matter of the situations that they were born into. Do you really consider what occurs to be fair and just?

>>2473489
Donations are madatory, and large. Just because there isn't a written rule that says you must donate does not mean that you can get away with failing too. I'm not sure how in works in America, but everything I said is right as regards Catholic history and modern Catholicism in Europe.

>>2473588
No, its not.
I don't know where you've read such bullshit, but it's not mandatory.

>>2473588
you sir, are talking out your ass

If you do some research you can find out that the Bible does not condemn gays. There are mistranslations of confusing words, and different interpretations of homosexuality at the time that was written.

Also, Sodom was destroyed for several reasons, which are listed, and do not include homosexuality. If you want, I can find the passage.

But I'm not Catholic.

>>2473579
I would think, logically, that a church can maintain itself quite easily. Not a lot of costs involved.

Indulgences, or, "buying your dead family members out of hell and limbo" were fucking retarded. And you, as a catholic, are fucking retarded.

>>2473570

It's variant for me. I respect atheists who don't believe in a God but admit that it is epistemically possible they are wrong. If you understand epistemic possibility you'll understand why this does not make them agnostic. If they don't understand that I view them on the same level that I view fundies... they've completely shut off their mind to the process of any new and/or conflicting information. They believe what they do not because they care about the truth, but because they simply wish to hold a certain stance.

>>2473553
The Catholic Spanish Inquisition was the single, most evil organisation of its time. People were not 'just like that.' Other Inquisitions existed but nothing came close to a single entity created SOLELY for the extermination or removal of Jews. Or people who might of been Jews. Or people who looked a little bit Jewish. Or people who had vindictive neighbours. All the heresy and 're-education' stuff came in later. There is a reason we all know about the Inquisition: It was horrendous even compared to other events in that time period.

>>2473626
my church just got seismically retrofitted as a state issued mandatory up grade. It needed to be able to withstand earthquakes (califag here). That procedure alone cost 5 million dollars. Cheap to maintain my ass.

>>2473617
Find me a practising Catholic who does not donate regularly.

>>2473580
your problem is not with Catholicism, but with the idea of a God.
That is a harder debate, as the concept of God differs very much from religion to religion.

I'm not a catholic, but i do sympathize. I remember reading this Wheel of Fortune allegory by St. Boecius and it was exactly about the unfairness of live X the fairness of God. I'd suggest you to read it, made sense to me.

I may be talking out of my ass here, since I'm not as familiar with Catholicism, but they seem to have a more responsible act. If they screw up, they don't blame it on the devil, but they also don't entitle God up to every single aspect of their lives as some protestants do. I remember a fellow student at my university, he was a protestant, and not very smart. I asked him "So, think you'll fail this year?" to what he answered "no, no way, God will help me".

>>2473711
they do it because they want to, not because they have to

>>2473711
me!
i go to church every sunday and even practice the lent, but i only donate on christmas.

>>2473624

Well, sorry if I burst your bubble here, but yeah.. it does condemn gays. The Old Testament does so pretty explicitly. "A man shouldn't sleep with another man in the way a man sleeps with a woman". There's no reasonable alternative interpretation to that.

You're right about Sodom not having to do with Sodomy though. Jewish tradition (and they should know, shouldn't they?) always said different.

The OT can be overlooked though, because it was superseded by the NT and Christian tradition dropped most of the taboos in Leviticus.

In the New Testament, Jesus never said anything about gays. Paul did, in Corinthians part Deux. And yes, there's confusion there because Paul didn't know Greek that great and invented a compound word that roughly translates into "man-bed". Men don't get to 'man-bed'.

It's still pretty clear what he was getting at though. There's no alternative explanation for it really. The better argument against this is that you have to put it into its historical context. The Greeks thought buttsecks was A-OK. (Heck, possibly better than straight sex because let's face it: Women suck.)

But Jews weren't into that shit. So they decided to play some classic 'wedge politics' and make homosexuality into a big deal so they could profile themselves and take the moral "high ground" against those faggy Greeks.

It did work.

>>2473714entitle every single aspect of their lives up to god

No, they don't have to, they have a saint for everything from beer to paperwork

>>2473681
lol montereyfag

>>2473724
Have fun being condemned by holier than thou 'friends' behind your back.

>>2473677
>created SOLELY for the extermination or removal of Jews
>The Catholic Spanish Inquisition was the single, most evil organisation of its time


You really do know what you're talking about huh.

>>2473746
I see you're taking this web-debate very seriously.

>>2473754
You have a problem with humanity. I could say the same phrase for every single social institution you would ever take part of, from family to sports.

>>2473681

You'll save it on not having to move to Alaska for the Rapture because Catholics don't believe that bullshit.

these fucking threads are worse than relationshit threads
id much rather read them than these
OP needs to fuck off, live and let live.

i know we dont. I live in california, we have earthquakes regularly.

>>2473822
Catholics were never persecuted, that's so unfair!
They never had to lose anything, from dignity to their lives, they always get the best sit at cinemas and shows and they always talk with their mouth full. Damn I hate them!

>>2473754
Well, I'm not gay, if that's what you're getting at.
>>2473735
Yes, I do tend to overlook most Old Testament things, or at least take them with a grain of salt.
I guess I spoke to quickly. What I mean was the New Testament, which doesn't condemn homosexuality as we know it today.

And I did mention historical context, although briefly, because my post was very short. And you're right about Paul, and all the buttsex. It's different from today. It's not about a bunch of straight people getting it on with other dudes for fun, it's people who actually have emotional, not just sexual attachment to one another.
That and Paul says some questionable things about slavery and women as well.

And if anyone refers to the passage in revelation about gays burning, that is also a mistranslation, probably referring to old men who touch little boys.

>>2473822
Fuck yeah, I love my religion.

tl;dr catholics are gonna do what they want, cuz they got it like that.

>>2473848
They were persecuted by the romans before one of the ceasars adopted it as the official religion.

>>2473772
The Spanish Inquisition was created in order to remove 'conversos' (converted Jews) who were still practising Jewish traditions. That is what it was for. What it actually did was remove anyone who was accused of practising Jewish traditions, anyone who looked vaguely Jewish and a few actual practising Jews. It was basically a little holocaust with more incompetence. No other single organisation was created with the genocide/mass deportation of a single race in mind. It's fair to say that in principle it was the most evil. It was later reformed into taking care of Catholic heretics and to a certain extent re-education but originally it was just for getting rid of faux-conversos. Fucking read about it, you ignorant shit.

>>2473714

You're not wrong... I do take issue with the whole punishment/reward system that God has set up more so than I do with one particular form of Christianity.

Thanks for the reading recommendation, I'll look into it.

catholicism is kinda dumb and christianity isn't just crazy fundamentalists and catholics there are lots of liberal/moderate protestant churches. a lot of them are what were formerly known as "mainline" protestants (although you can't really call them "mainline" anymore since membership for evangelicals/fundamentalists outnumber the mainline)

there is a third way

>>2473887
You're talking to a marrano here, boy. So shut up and get an european history book instead of that middle school textbook shit or whatever you've been reading.
The spanish inquisition did not 'blossom from a desire of killing jews'. It is part of a greater phenomenon, which is the inquisition. What happens is that in Spain, jews were the main target, just as in France were the heretics.
The jews were just as persecuted in england, there were just less jews to kill than in Spain.
You wanna know more bout this shit? study the history of the iberic peninsule. Then you'll know why there were so many jews there, and why the spanish catholics hated them.

And about being the 'most evil organization (...)' I'm sure you didn't do your homework. I'm sure you don't know what was going on at the arabic civilization at that time, or the slav civilization, or the chinese, or the tibetan, or about any other civilization far from ocidental europe.

So, you're the one who should be doing some reading instead of backing up your hate-theories with anachronistic criticism and judging. What you're doing is the same as criticizing greeks for being "pedophiles", or Egiptians for being "slavists". learn to proper do a historical research, which means much more than blaming catholic children for the mistakes of their great-great-great (keep saying "great" for half an hour)-fathers.

I don't know from Catholics, I just know that my aging, diabetic landlord loves to look down upon comers. Oh, and democrats are vile baby-killers that should rightfully be murdered. ITS A BEGGING-QUESTION-STRAW-MAN OF DELUSIONAL FALLACY!!!!11!1!