Because there are legitimate reasons for abortion. I hope you're trolling otherwise you're genuinely retarded.

>Anyway, why do libfags love abortion so much?
Libfags don't love abortion, they just don't see a fetus as a human, and so value the rights of the mother-to-be to have control of her own body.

The majority of liberals don't care much for abortion, either, but don't believe it should be outlawed. Try talking to one sometime, you'll be surprised how much in common you have with them. A lot of the same ideas, but different conclusions.

Fuck babies.

I have a shirt that says Pro Baby Killing.
=\
People think it's a joke.

They don't want to have to take responsibility for knocking someone up. They don't really give a shit about women being able to control their own bodies, they are thinking of themselves.

I don't support the death penalty. I support abortions and every kind of birth control.

I AM SUCH A MONSTER!!!

Woman gets raped in a back alley and can't get her hands on Plan B.

What now, OP?

Because they don't exist yet. They're not humans yet. They have no rights.

It's just a form of birth control.

Abortion is perfectly fine until the third trimester. It's illegal after the second

Mammals breathe air

case closed

Male pro lifers, you disgust me so. At least women pro lifers have a legitimate seat at the table, you male pro lifers by being such declare 'i wish to impose will upon women faced with a choice i will never understand'

Put simply, as a pretty well-off guy who could probably handle an unplanned pregnancy fairly decently, I don't really think I have the right to tell some poor women how they're allowed to deal with a collection of cells inside their fetus that, if born, could potentially ruin their lives.

Of course, this is all "within reason." I, like most liberals, don't support late-term abortions.

It's similar to my positions on guns: I don't own one, I see no reason to ever own one, but I don't support taking away the right to guns from everyone. I just want to see laws made within reason (banning of assault rifles, etc).

>skanky pregnant slut
That's right. Abortion drastically lower crime rate. A kid born to a mother who was planning to have an abortion usually will not have a very enjoyable childhood. A lot of them end up in jail. In a perfect world, people would adopt, but this is not a perfect world.

But mostly, I just don't give a fuck about dead babies.
Just more useless meat in a meaningless world. Alive or dead, it doesn't matter. If the fetus had the capacity to understand what life has in store for them, they would be thanking the abortion doctor.

People are going to have abortions whether it is legal or not. They might as well not do it with some goo they bought on the internet or a coat hanger.

Not all women that get abortions are sluts.

>>2429258
Indeed, fuck babies, until they get older and start learning that's all they are and there's no shortage of them. You don't look at an adult and think "adult", you see a unique person.

Not a troll and I'm pro-choice but here's some food for thought.

A man kills a pregnant woman, he gets charged with double homicide.

getting an abortion is like wearing a condom.

you dont care about the millions of sperm you kill? Same friggin thing

>>2429276
Why is it okay for women pro-lifers to impose their will on women they'll probably never meet than it is for men?

All pro-lifers are busybody low-lifes that should fucking drown in babies.

Liberals support it because mainly niggers get abortions. Liberals know niggers are unable to function properly without a bunch of social programs, so they try to kill as many as possible.

>>2429268
Then it's her fault for being in that alley

>>2429302
Maybe liberals aren't so bad after all.

Why is it double homicide when someone kills a pregnant woman, but abortion is legal?

I believe in abortion untill the fourth trimester.

Think about it.
1. We get rid of those with birth defects and invalids. Nobody likes invalids. They drive slow.
2. We help curb population growth. Too many people have kids anyway, right? Global population is a menace, and we need to do everything to prevent it.
3. Couples who are not yet ready to have a child can back out, preventing a shitty upbringing. I don't need some punkass vagrant motherfucker ruining MY society because he was raised by unprepared parents.

After all, it's only infanticide. Everyone knows that babies don't have feelings.

If a woman gets knocked up in the modern day she is too irresponsible to raise children anyway.

>>2429302
Awesome. I don't care if abortion is murder, more niglets need to be killed. The parents too.

>>2429321
Because it is assumed that if the woman is pregnant, she is keeping the baby. If there is substantial credible evidence that she was going to get an abortion soon you can argue to the judge that it should only be a single homocide.

As we cannot tell the future our law just assumes that the child in her stomach is going to be born successfully and therefore become a human being. Given intent to stop the pregnancy before it becomes a human, you can argue against the double-homocide charge.

>>2429332

Population growth is the most rapid in countries where abortion is rarely carried out.

Not that I disagree, it just won't help in that aspect

This is something for you.
2 Scenarios.
1. A 24 year old husband and recent father gets murdered because he refused to let himself be carjacked.
2. A 14 year old girl has an abortion because she got drunk at a party and slept with some dude. If she had the baby, she'd have dropped out of school, her life would've been ruined and chances are her kid would've had a horrible upbringing.

And you're saying these things are equally evil?

>>2429234
>innocent life

hahaha, oh wow

>>2429376
If you view the unborn fetus as a human life, then yes. One person was murdered in each scenario.

>>2429406
There's a difference between a few cells that are nowhere near becoming human esque in the slightest, and a father and husband.
Yeah... an unborn fetus is not a human life. Until it gets to a certain age, OFC.

I support the Death Penalty AND I'm Pro Choice.
However i think that the first trimester is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep a baby or not. UNLESS the baby is going to be deformed, retarded, die on the way out, or kill you on the way out.
And i think that if i choose to keep my baby and some Sick /b/astard molests my child, well then hell yes i believe in the death penalty!

I for one am against abortion.

I'm for mandatory contraceptive surgery.

Tubes tied, vasectomies, IUDs, whatever. People should be legally required to have preventive surgery or some other soon-to-be-discovered streamline measurement to prevent pregnancy, just like people are legally required to get vaccination shots.

Abortion is BARBARIC, outmoded, and retarded, whereas contraceptive has no greater moral issues than masturbation.

God dammit, people. Anybody that gets an abortion is CLEARLY a fucking dumbass. Why the fuck weren't you on the pill? Why the fuck didn't you have a Nuvaring or whatever?

Those contraceptives are ONLY quoted "99% affective" because they factor in human error. If you get an abortion, you DID IT WRONG.

Fucking dumbasses.

Oh and for god's sakes... the procedures should be reversable. God damn. Don't assume I meant permanent contraceptives. Fuck.

>>2429429
Says you. When a human life begins is a question worth answering. Most of the debate is people making no attempt whatsoever to understand the other side. So long as this continues, the question will not be answered.

>>2429234

You feel that abortion should be illegal, but I disagree, because you are uneducated and poor.

Abortion helps rid of an entire generation of potential criminals and uneducated poverty level scum. Hooray abortion!

>>2429447
Actually, because of how the pill works and how the female body works, she could be taking it perfectly and one bout of stress could wake up her cycle. But that's not important because it's so so rare. Nature will always find a way.

Question though: How do you take care of the procreation problem? Test-tube babies? That's so sci-fi. COOL!

a fertilized egg is not people.Its the potentially a person. Women do not have funerals every time they miscarry despite according to Op's alleged view that would have been the death of a legitimate child. I do not cry for the potential child I murder every day when I masturbate and commit genocide, women do not weep when they murder potential babies when they bleed out there unfertilized egg. Your fucking naive if you think otherwise.

>>2429447

>mandatory contraceptive surgery

That's not how things are. Most doctors won't even do it if you haven't had a kid yet. Abortions are how things ended up and if we didn't have them the 1% of human error would be having all of the kids, and the world would be worse.

Suffering bitches.

Does it suffer? NO?
Does the host wish for it to be born? NO?

Do you have a religious conviction based on no evidence that every conception is a own soul in Gods image?
Time for Belief Imposing on you all.

I'm for abortion and murder.
We're a civilization that's built on suffering, misery and murder.
It's got us to where we are today and without it we wouldn't be as powerful as we are.
You're freedom to choose is the result of millions upon millions of deaths. Get over it.

>>2429295
>>2429321
he can only be charged with a double homicide if the fetus is old enough to live on its own.

I believe you should be tested on whether or not you will have a mandatory abortion. this test will be based the intelligence of both parents, personality tests, parenting tests. all this is done before the woman is pregnant. if the parents fail the test then the baby gets aborted.

this prevents stupid people from breeding and creating more stupid people. the parents will also go through genetic tests to make sure that the dormant traits wouldn't be detrimental to society.

this would solve overpopulation and solve stupidity. race will not be a factor in deciding the outcome of the baby. this is my plan.

Nothing has really happened to the child, even if it dies at xMonths, it still is a pretty clean slate and all the emotional investment you have in one sided as you could make that individual quite easily (all it does is sleep, poop and eat). A fetus is even less complex, all it needs is sperm, an egg and a vagina to gestate in. Anybody, anywhere who claims a fetus is a person is a fool. It could be a person, but it isn't, the only thing is that it has taken up some of the mother's energy to grow. It can't sing, can't walk, didn't play vidja games instead of doing its homework last night. It didn't do anything.

The point is that if something is wrong, either biologically or environmentally, it is easy to abort and start again when the factors necessary for a healthy child are present. The fact that anyone would choose to raise a broken child (downie, niglet etc) in an impoverished home (where they were not ready for the child, like 15yo mothers) shows just how stupid people are.

I'm happy with the current abortion laws.

We don't need partial birth abortions 8 months in a pregancy because the mother suddenly decides she wants a girl and not a boy and wants the baby aborted.

Abortion is a non-issue. Its fucking legal in IRAQ and SAUDI ARABIA for some situations.

Lets not get too stupid with abortion laws. It is reasonable to let women terminate their pregnancy for whatever reasons so long as its fuck... within reason?

Roe vs. Wade is fine the way it is. Leave it at that, motherfuckers.

Abortions needlessly put the mother at risk of injury. I believe we should wait until after child birth to kill the baby. We could then chop it up and feed it to the homeless. Two birds with one stone.

How can you even bring religion into this? If the baby is killed before they're born, they have a better chance into getting into heaven than they would if they grew up. Considering the way the crime rates have dropped they would most likely grow up to be a criminal and end up burning in hell. All of the dead babies should be with Jesus now.

>>2429332
that woman is fucking garbage. Most of you fags even say "it's a necessary evil" but she's fucking flaunting it. God damn, I raged.

I don't see why this thread even exists.

The OP is either a troll or just stupid and nobody else thinks that abortion is wrong, thus making the thread useless.

However to contribute to the useless thread: I myself think that 'prolife' is a load of bollocks since it's not alive at such an early on stage and, to be honest, even if it was it would it feel the pain of being killed? Would anything bad happen? No.

>If you're against murder

That's a wholly unjustified assumption you're making.

>>2429609

It's just a worthless lump of cells. No different from Cliffy B.

this whole discussion only has meaning if you believe in god, so FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU

Pro-choice fags - No-one has yet successfully debunked OP's point, which is, MAKE UP YOUR MINDS QUICKLY (<3 months) SLUTFAGS. THERE'S A TIME FACTOR HERE. You should have thought about your position on abortion before getting knocked up/raped, the rest of us plan ahead and buy insurance (and thinking doesn't cost a thing).

Pro-life/"life begins at conception" fags: The baby will probably grow up to be a criminal (broken home/etc), why not cut out the middleman and stop them becoming criminals before they're even human?

Plus, each ejaculation has millions of sperms, and every month non-pregnant girls get rid of an egg, so every period is murder and ejaculation (even that which ends in pregnancy) is murder in your eyes. Clearly even god is OK with "murdering" these things, who are you to question him? Same logic goes to anti contraception/anti masturbation fuckwits.

>>2429604

I think babies need to be baptized to get into heaven.

i'm a religious libfag and this is why i love abortion so much

I'll gladly change my stance to being pro-murder, as long as it means that unwanted children aren't forced into shitty circumstances just because a politician, a doctor, or mommy and daddy think God's keeping tabs on their shit.

>>2429718

What a cheap game mechanic.

>>2429718

I thought about that too but honestly in my experience only hard religious people believe that. Although casual religious people have faith in the bible and the teachings they also have a faith in that god is fair and would not send babies to hell. The people that would say otherwise are saying that 99% of the world burns in hell anyways, so the babies are unsaved no matter what.

I don't think you should have a say in the matter until you are a pregger or father to be.

>>2429682
>Pro-life/"life begins at conception"
>begins at conception"
>conception"

>egg
>ejaculation

Egg != conception without ejaculation.
Ejaculation != conception without egg.

I fucking hate that "argument" and "point". It doesn't make any sense, stop using it you fagfag.

>Pro-choice fags - No-one has yet successfully debunked OP's point, which is, MAKE UP YOUR MINDS QUICKLY (<3 months) SLUTFAGS. THERE'S A TIME FACTOR HERE. You should have thought about your position on abortion before getting knocked up/raped, the rest of us plan ahead and buy insurance (and thinking doesn't cost a thing).

I will agree to this 100% though.

I'm for fewer poor, unwanted children coming out of poor, uneducated mothers.

I'm for the rights of actual people over the rights of potential, theoretical, maybe-in-the-future people.

If that's murder, then fuck yeah murder. (It's not, but whatever. Religious idiots have been fucking up language since it was invented.)

>they also have a faith in that god is fair

Wow, is there anything they don't have faith in?

>>2429795
Yes. They have no faith in any woman's ability to make a rational choice about her own body.

Because circumstances change, even after the first trimester. What if you were seven months pregnant when the economy collapsed, and you realized you could no longer support yourselves, let alone a child? What if you were seven months pregnant when you were diagnosed with HIV?

>>2429234

On one hand, I don't think stupid people should be punished so harshly for a night of hot unprotected sex. A woman should be able to say "Ok, I admit it, I fucked up, big time. Get this thing out of me."

On the other hand, I think that forcing people who are never going to learn to become responsible is good for society as a whole...

So, naturally, the solution is to only allow abortions for women who pass an IQ test. Let's be fair and say that a woman must have a 110 IQ to qualify for the RIGHT to abort, and that if she doesn't, then she must either have the father pass the test and consent to her abortion, or she must have the kid.

There, I just solved abortion. What's next, legalizing weed? Fuck I should become a politician.

>>2429774
this

poor, uneducated preggers skanks carrying thier unwanted babies to term just leads to cyclical generational poverty.

>>2429848
WHAT

"Pass an IQ test" should be the criteria for NON STERILIZATION. Your plan would force stupid women to reproduce? Your plan is bad.

My main points on the topic:

Death is the erasing of a conciousness created from a series of events, and eliminates the possibility for any future events. Old people have a great deal of personality and conciousness, but little chance for growth. Hence we don't pity them when they die. Children have little personality and conciouness, but tons of growth potential. We feel for their death because of what they could be.

When you use a condom, you prevent a life from occuring. When you abort, you prevent a life from occuring. When you kill a child, you erase what life has occured. When you kill an adult, you erase a fully formed conciouness, with limited growth potential. They are all part of a sliding scale... parts of a full life.

Any of us can die at any time, and the odds just happen to be lower than that of a sperm and egg meeting at conception. Effectively, every sperm and egg death, be it from condoms or lack of sex is a murder in a way.

tl;dr - abortion is murder, but so is everything else, so whatever makes a life better is fine.

>>2429848
I prefer plans where abortion would never ever come up.

One is to offer $20,000 paid over five years, tax free, to any man who undergoes a vasectomy. The government pays for the operation, and allows the man to store a "sample" in case the procedure can't be reversed (it usually can). During the five years, the man must take a yearly sperm test to ensure he's shooting blanks.

Suddenly, the birth-rate in the lower class plummets.

>>2429876

But but but who else would operate my McDonalds?

-The leaders of the world were born out of choice.
-The people who work the dirty jobs were born by accident.

>>2429848
Yeah. Great idea. Have another kid be born into a retarded family with no sense of responsibility.

>>2429848

Goddamn your plans don't make any sense. How are stupid babies a good thing?

>>2429882
Actually, no. Murder is defined as taking another life with malicious intent. This is why accidentally running someone over with a car and killing them is called "man slaughter" and not "murder".

>>2429937
Sorry, Brosepher. Your idea is bad. Abortion should be mandatory for idiots. There will always be Mexican and niggers to work at your beloved arches of gold.

>>2429971
>>2429945

please see

>>2429937

We need stupid people for stupid jobs. Your dreams of an intellectual utopia are unrealistic and far off in the time line of human development. Even in the space age we'll need people for grunt work, and they'd do a better job if they didn't have the intelligence to question why they are doing shit work and not someone else.

i.e. People who choose to work at McDonalds

>>2429769

Right, that's my point. Conception happens when you mix an egg and a sperm, but there's no difference between an egg-and-sperm and an egg and a sperm (at the moment of conception, there's no difference between a sperm plus an egg versus an inseminated egg).

Put another way, if life begins at conception, then an egg is half a human and a sperm is half a human. Therefore, if killing eggs and sperm is murder, then God is the biggest abortionist ever (hell, if noone masturbated/PMSd, every ejaculation ended in pregnancy and every pregnancy was terminated, we'd still be losing [100-million-to-one times the number of pregnancies] to God on the abortion count). Therefore, either God is far more immoral than anyone could ever hope to be (blasphemy at it's finest, GG christfags), or abortion isn't immoral.

Even if you argue that sperm+egg=lifeform, humans are already fine with killing non-human lifeforms (and egg+sperm are lightyears from any definition of human). Even poo has more human DNA tiny zygote/embryo.

Abortion is truly mankind's finest invention.

I pray to Jesus every night thanking him for this precious gift.

>>2429882
It seems we have a pseudo philosopher among us.

Get the fuck out of here, no one really believes you are smart.

>>2430000

Stop trying to salvage what little intellectual credibility you have left.

>>2430147

He has a point. We need people to work fast food, to be garbage men, ect, ect.

>>2430173
No, no, no, a thousand times NO! What we need is a labor shortage to reward innovation.

You don't get steam engines when slaves are cheap. (See: Rome.)

Peoples abortive or non-abortive decisions are often without regard or ironical with respect to the law.

>>2430090
what makes that guy stupid and a pseudo philosopher instead of an actual one just wondering tia peace

>>2430090
mootblock for no reason
>It seems we have a pseudo philosopher among us.

>Get the fuck out of here, no one really believes you are smart.

Is that really the only answer I get? I wasn't trying to come off as any smarter than anyone else, I was just putting my thoughts in to see what people thought of them.

side note: whats the difference between a philosopher and a pseudo-philosopher other than being published?

too many niggers.

>>2430343
Ok, whats the difference betwen Aristotle and Ayn Rand?

>>2430015

>Put another way, if life begins at conception, then an egg is half a human and a sperm is half a human.

wat.

Here's the problem with saying "a woman should be able to abort if she doesn't want to provide for a child". By the very same principle, we should just kill every homeless person, everyone on welfare, etc. Because lets face it, I don't want to pay for some random people on the other side of the state/country/planet/whatever, but that's exactly what I'm doing (taxes-welfare).

Secondly, there is another issue that doesn't often come up. Scenario: a couple has sex, woman gets pregnant. The couple disagree on whether or not to abort. How/who gets to decide?

>>2429257
>The majority of liberals don't care much for abortion, either, but don't believe it should be outlawed.

Which is also true of a lot of conservatives. Keep in mind that Bush failed to overturn Roe vs. Wade in 8 years, and McCain put forward no plan whatsoever to do so either.

I'm against abortion as well. Fuck your body.

>>2429234

90% of abortions are first trimester. Most of the rest are due to health complications.

Why do repuglicunts like you hate freedom?

You say agree with murder like it's a bad thing.

I've noticed everyone who is pro abortion has already been born.

Republicans: Pro killing people, Anti killing not-people


Lets let the babies grow up so we can strap an AK47 on them and let them kill the other babies whom we have no room for in the first place.

Makes perfect sense(tm)

Mandatory abortions is the way to go.

KEEP IT THE WAY IT FUCKING IS FOR FUCKING FUCKS SAKE.

Have people completely forgotten about that whole Seperation of Church and State thing?

>>2430596
Democrats: Will fight for the right of people to kill their 3rd trimester kid because the mother doesn't like the sex of the child, but is upset when sombody kills a cow for food.

Makes perfect sense.

>>2430596
I'll just uh, leave this here.

Mootjkejrkadjkasdhaksjdasdfsfq

You all get a 0/10. Except the OP. He gets a 10. Now kill yourselves.

evidence vs religion, round 19,213,048,328

FIGHT!

>>2430616
Democrat here.
Cows are fucking delicious.

Abortions are necessary, and no worse morally than war, which is also sometimes necessary.

WTF is a "live birth abortion"? if the child is born alive, what is there to abort? I hate how pro-life morons make up shit like this...

if god is omnipotent, then abortion is a part of his plan.

who the fuck are you to argue with god?

>>2430636
Well then why are we arguing? Abort all the kids, kill all the muslims while we stuff some red meat into our gullet.

Just keep your dirty Jew hands off my income taxs return.

>>2430652
Because of a couple photographs taken during an utterly insane surgical procedure, they believe the fetus is alive as soon as it has hands.

>>2430652
Ignorant faggot in their prime

As a woman, let me just say this:
Women LOVE abortions. They will do anything and EVERYTHING to get them. I myself get one every two months! After all, what's more gratifying than getting an abortion? Am I right? Am I right?

>>2430634
Not all people who oppose abortion do so for religious reasons. In fact, many femenists from the 70's were against it as well.

cool, people who think abortions should be illegal are fucking retarded.

so, are you going to give any woman who gets an abortion (Maybe it was an accident, a rape victim, incest baby, goign to have a debilitating disease for the rest of it's life, a poor family that can't afford it) the death penalty? or just life in prison? seriously? that's fucking stupid.

And people who say "JUST GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION". Yeah, ok, don't care about the kid at all, just put it in a shitty system where it will never get to know it's true mother and father. Playing with emotions is fun.

Also, mootblox.

>>2429292
>Indeed, fuck babies, until they get older and start learning that's all they are and there's no shortage of them.

You might as well keep fucking them after they've learned something; that way they feel like they've accomplished something. Also, if you don't fuck adults sometimes too, there will eventually be a shortage of babies.

>>2429295
PROTIP: It's not like that everywhere.

>>2430679
As usual, wrong.

>>2430691

Ba-dum tish

mootblock

>>2430679

>femenists

Femen? Is that like jizz for girls?

>>2429332
The ends don't justify the means.

>>2429447

No argument, no matter how eloquent or well thought out (and yours is neither) can survive RANDOMLY capitalizing words. IT makes YOU sound like a PATRONIZING DOUCHE.

If you're against abusive parents, then you have zero reason to oppose abortion. Even if abortion is illegal, it's unconscionable that pregnant women are forced to keep the baby after the first trimester. Is a skanky pregnant slut really capable of being a decent mother?

>>2430690

Instead, let's never give them the chance to experience life, because all the adopted kids I know are just fuck-up losers.

>>2430737
The ends always justify the means.

So, aside from the health/crime side (pregnancy from rape) of this issue, the end result for an unwanted baby would be:

1) Death
2) Life in a shitty system that torments you emotionally.

Maybe we should try and be a bit pro-active with this. Perhaps if we make birth control more available (AKA free), we won't have to worry about unwanted pregnancies so much.

>>2430763
holy shit i was about to say taht. hivemind

>>2430763

The ends justify the means, but often the means create more than enough ends themselves to muddy the issue.

I should post my blog entry on abortion! (oh god let's not all do this):

Recently my recurring thought regarding abortion is this:

What about all the women in history who have died giving birth or during pregnancy soley because of the pregnancy? vast, vast lives lost (times two sorta, if you think about it). So wait a second? Now we're saying you don't have a choice in the matter? That if you get pregnant, 'sorry, you gotta deliver or it's murder.' Potential mother can just commit suicide, and in the end has the ultimate authority. the mother's life and the babies are definitely not mutually exclusive. <--- that seems to be key.

but then we're out of the womb. daddie and mommie don't wanna take care of the baby and baby dies. same thing as the mom committing suicide and the baby inside dying? no. baby COULD be found/taken care of, could live. mom decides to check out early, and the baby IS (with limit -> absolute certainty) dead (not going to be alive at least, if you don't consider it already alive).

anything about a man controlling a woman's body, whether through a law passed saying you must deliver a baby or through violent force, just seems horrid to me. a forced pregnancy? the woman would have aborted but CAN'T because it's ILLEGAL? holy fuck just kill yourself, don't let anyone have that kind of authority over you, heyzeus. what's so different from rape in this scenario? forcing a women to have sex with you as a male and forcing a woman to deliver a baby against her will... i'm not sure which is worse.

course, you could always force a woman to have sex with you, then vote for a law that gets passed outlawing abortion and bam, double whammie. morning after pills might get the boot next, because if there was conception, you've effectively had an abortionyou murderer? hm.
continued...

...
while the mom and fetus/potential human inside her have different genetic fingerprints, they are bound by something that seems to override that: the child's complete dependance on the mother.

as usual i've followed my intuition here and then sought to figure out the reasons (if I can find any behind it). then i've tried the other side of the debate and seen what reasons back up that.

basically a lot of arguments i hear are for the sake of the "potential human being" in the womb that is developing (or the already-human person in there). well guess what? that human being that could be so precious and the next albert einstein or adolf hitler doesn't exist yet. they could be a taxi driver or a revolutionary. we don't know. speaking on behalf of chance and 'possibility' is vacuous at best. if we apply this sort of reasoning to other situations, we are led to be stagnant and overcome by inertia because we're left trying to act around all the possible outcomes/dangers. boy in the bubble, not walking outside for fear of stray bullets etc.

so we take our best guess and take our chances. but people, people, the chances suck for the kid!

if the mother doesn't want a baby and wants to abort it, the baby is already at least somewhat fucked. maybe not just somewhat either. adoption's effects on children have been shown to be extremely negative, sorry adoption system and foster care system, great-intentioned and humanitarian though you may be. having a mother who doesn't want you, at some point didn't want you, keeps that in the back of her mind and knows that her whole life isn't too great either. while she may change in her feelings toward the child (i can't speak about mothers' feelings toward their own children), it is undoubtedly a sub-par situation for the child.
continued...

...
so we're giving the potential human/human a chance at a great life full of possibility by keeping it alive and forcing the mother through a delivery?

"get your fucking hands off her body" is a phrase that i think aptly expresses what i feel (yes feel and critically think as well) about this abortion issue. whether the hands be physical or legally binding/beauracratic. you wouldnt' force a woman to have sex with you against her will, so uh, hopefully you wouldn't force her to go through a pregnancy and deilvery against her will. which is more traumatic, well...

Wait. Backtrack. Let's take things from the other side, shall we? What if I'M the baby? My fucking mom doesn't want me? So I get killed? Never had a chance, never had a say, nada. I'm just dead. Of course I don't realize this for myself since I can't even think or become aware of anything besides reacting to external stimuli with genetic, instinctual/developmental presets. So really, am I mad at my mom for not wanting me? No, because I can't feel anger. Do I think anything of it? No. What about later on in life? I'd sure be mad at her then for killing me as a fetus.

But wait that's a faulty hypothetical line of reasoning. I would be mad at her? I wouldn't exist if she aborted me, so the scenario would never happen and is impossible. Not relevant. If she did keep me and didn't abort me, then I exist and hopefully develop and live to be grateful she didn't abort me if I ever had it revealed to me that she wanted to.

Unless of course she treated me like shit all my life and acted like she resented my existance. Maybe out of resentment towards a society that forced me, my existance, on her.

Maybe I would want her to have had that abortion. Out of concern not just for preventing my miserable, scarred life, but out of concern for her.

I personally don't like it. :( I think a lot of abortions are due to the mother's unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions. Though, I do support abortions if the mother's health is in danger.

>>2431115
I personally don't like you. But I'm not campaigning for any laws against you, because I am not a judgmental faggot.

I stopped reading at "man controlling a womans body"

You are retarded. Its about Laws imposing consequences/rules on your behavior.

Which is exactly why women everywhere love supporting abortion. It encourages a lack of responsibility.

>>2431170
... because being told by others what you're allowed to do with your body is the epitome of "responsibility", amirite?

haha, love abortion.

BY THIS, AND ONLY THIS, SHALT THOU VOTE.

Goddamn idiot republicans and their goddamn misguided belief that every democrat supports abortion and that abortion is such a horribly important issue that it should trump every other thing any candidate is bringing to the table.

>>2431115

>I personally don't like it. :(
Not many do.

>I think a lot of abortions are due to the mother's unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions.
'Allows x to not take responsibility for x's actions' is a cop out for an explanation. Be specific. Life generally teaches people the law of cause and effect vigorously over time, don't need you as well dishing out that lesson as though you were the master.

>Though, I do support abortions if the mother's health is in danger.
You need to think, not feel, your position through more.

No ill-will intended.

>>2431194
Its not about what you can and cannot do. It is about wether or not you have to take responsibility for the actions afterwards.

If you have sex, you should be prepared for the worst. It just fucking works that way, murderer.

I'm pro murder

Abortion is great because it allows us to kill the cancer before it has a chance to fight back.

I hate it when people treat America like it's one big (for lack of a better word) church. The only reason half the shit in America is illegal is because the christfags will whine. Marijuana? BAWW IT'S A SIN. Abortion? MURDER BAWWW. Gay marriage? YOU'RE GOING TO HELL.

I think abortion should stay legal for the people who really, honest-to-god did not mean to get pregnant. Now I'm not saying the whores who run around and have sex without condoms/other method of birth control should be getting abortions, that's their own damn fault. (And that is why we have the morning after pill, kids) But the people who get raped or people who had sex and the condom leaked and they didn't know and then 1 month later they miss their period should be allowed to.

I was going to rant a lot more, but I guess I'll end it here.

>>2431242
WAAH I LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THERE IS A CHRISTIAN HERITAGE THAT DETERMINES POPULAR OPINION ON A LARGE AMOUNT OF DEVIANT BEHAVIOR
WAHH WHY CANT I HAVE PROMISCUOUS SEX
WAHH WHY DO I HAVE TO BE CAREFUL AGAINST BEING RAPED
WAHH WHY CANT I LIVE IN A LIFESTYLE OF UNNATURAL ATTRACTION THAT IS JUST A OUTRIGHT MANIFESTATION OF MANS NATURAL REBELLION AGAINST GOD
WAAHH WAAH FUCKING WAAAH

overpopulation, poverty, corruption, goatse.

do you really want to bring an "innocent" being into this fucked up world?

mandatory abortions

/thread

>>2431170
Is your view of the world so pessimistic that you believe that women everywhere would use abortion in lieu of other contraceptives?

Forget the fact that the sheer thought of ending a life is hard for ANYONE, and that deciding whether or not a potential life may live or die because of whatever reason a woman may have to keep or not to keep a child is a hard enough decision already, the idea that an OPERATION is going to replace contraceptives is a laughable fallacy.

Oh, but I assume you're thinking that legalized abortions will mean women can go FUCKING BALLS OUT and have sex with any man whenever! Because now if she has that baby she can just SNIP SNIP that shit, right?

also forgot to lol about you blaming christfags for marijuana being illegal.

that reason for that would be Henry J. Anslinger and government propaganda/mass mis-information for the purpose of being seen as your "protector" from the evils of society.

aka liberalism. Kinda funny.

abortion is as moral is killing bugs

>>2431206
There seems to be a double standard when it comes to gender and sexuality. A man can sleep around, but as long as he supports what he produces, he can't be frowned upon. He is a stud, a man to be admired.

However, if a woman sleeps around, she is a slut. It looks negatively on her. She is dirty, a tramp, a whore. If she keeps her kids, she is still seen as irresponsible, since in this day and age all the work is still on the mother. A father just needs to send in child support and he's free to do as he pleases. The mother, however, must bear the child, or under the eyes of this modern society, she is a monster.

Abortion, then, is the female's "Child support" to normalcy, at least. We could play the logic game (I know philosophers have over this topic for GOD knows how long) but there are real world constructs still in place which makes this topic more than just a morality issue.

>>2431170 >Its about Laws imposing consequences/rules on your behavior.

Which is exactly why women everywhere love supporting abortion. It encourages a lack of responsibility.

again, taking responsibility for your actions is such a cop out. delve further you coward.

look, the vast majority of the US Government is MALE. EHM EY ELL EE. THAT ALONE presents a HUGE problem with the contention that the laws PASSED BY THIS GOVERMENT should force a mother to 'take responsibility,' as you say. Wish you would elaborate what that means.. whether it be a lifetime of trauma and economic uncertainty or just putting that child up for adoption. Lousy rebuttal..

I'm sure there are tons of counter-examples to this, including all those rape and accidental pregnancies as well as ones where the mother and/or child is at (often grave) risk. Preaching about responsibility and how the law needs to impose it upon people... should sound about as pretentious/hollow to you as it does to me, and if not, you should re-examine how indoctrinated you are with government authority.

>>2431206

>It is about wether or not you have to take responsibility for the actions afterwards.

Same shit. Arguably(!) another lousy rebuttal..

In during troll etc..

Troll.
Please take this faggotry to /b/ where it can be appropriately appreciated.

>>2431272
Leave /r9k/. Your kind are not welcome here.

It is certain that the fetus doesn't have a brain until 13 weeks in, and that sensation doesn't begin to be transmitted until after 20 weeks in. Even then, the cognitive ability to interpret a sensation as pain doesn't develop until another month.

As such, I'm cool with abortion because there isn't even a mind capable interpreting BASIC FUCKING SENSATION until roughly 24 weeks (6 months) in. Abortion is already forbidden in later stages where most people's moral code would allow it.

Then again, I'm pro euthanasia, and I've already had to pull the plug on three people. I think I'm a bit more hardened towards this issue than some others.

Most of us only support early abortions.

The exception being if it's needed to save the life or preserve the health of the mother.

Liberals don't love abortions. Wonder why anyone would think they do.

So basically here's the deal.
If a woman aborts her baby 1 day before birth, does it really make a difference whether the baby is inside or outside of her vagina? I mean, partial birth, where the living baby is taken partially out of the vagina and then killed by shoving a knife into its neck, is still legal in some cases. If the baby is going to live outside of the vagina, what difference does it make if its inside of it. Now I understand that if you make a mistake and want it taken care of when it's the size of a quarter and doesn't have nerves, then maybe it can be fine, but when you're that late in the term....? and oh i just realized that partial birth isn't legal, but late term is and that's almost as bad, you just don't take it out of the vagina you do it a different way. Same thing, different method. not going to retype the post.

>>2431346
All you basically just preached is that it places such a burden on women that they can't be blamed for wanting have abortions. You also inserted some penis envy about how women can't be as carefree as men provided THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE OLOLOL

all the other garbage about women being sluts, men etc is fucking moronic envious tripe that has been fed to you to basically justify not having to be responsible with your womb. OMG I HAS VAGINA I CANT DO WHAT I PLZ WITH IT? Nigger please grow the fuck up. Actions have reprecussions.

>>2431348
Letting the government tell you that you don't have to be responsible for your actions because you can go to the doctor and fix it is much more damaging then imposing rules for responsibility.

I also lol'd @ calling my argument a cop out, when A: abortion is the ULTIMATE COP OUT AND MOST GREEDY ACT YOU WILL EVER RATIONALIZE, EVER and
B: The government imposing in your daily life is a bad thing in this situation. major lolz YAY GO WOMEN WE CAN FINALLY BE FREE WITH OUR BODIES JUST LIKE THOSE DARN MEN!

>>2431448
hmm
>ULTIMATE COP OUT AND MOST GREEDY ACT YOU WILL EVER RATIONALIZE, EVER
really? You can't think of a single thing that is more greedy that people rationalize? You don't have much imagination, do you?

>>2431398
Its funny because people always rail against christian standards, beliefs etc and call them exclusionist, elitist etc when this attitude of "agree with my choices or gtfo" is exactly the kind of elitism that

you know what
fuck it
enjoy your ignorance

Also, Margaret Sanger was a racist, intolerant bitch and everyone knows that. Obviously you can't judge something just from that but it is in the foundation of the idea. Without Margaret Sanger would there have been a sexual revolution? Someone please answer that!! Margaret Sanger started planned parenthood for all you uniformed masses.

>>242923
>>Does a skanky pregnant slut really need more >>than three months to decide she's selfish and >>hates innocent life?

That is illogical. The baby has yet to be born. You cannot determine if that baby is innocent, just as those who support banning abortion use the argument that from the moment of conception, the potential for greatness has been squandered.

We cannot be sure of this, because it simply has not happened, so this in of itself is also illogical to argue. Arguing that we cannot allow abortions because of the potential for life is present is akin to saying we cannot allow driving because the potential for accidents exist.

But, since you wish to argue in this mode...
No one knows (save for god, be it through omnipotence or through pre-determination) if the baby born will be "innocent" (which i'm assuming means free of doing anything wrong, because it had not the chance to do anything wrong) or "guilty" (which, in this argument, I mean guilty of any Christian immoral action, which clearly the child hasn't been able to commit). If he is guilty in his life, then isn't it good to kill the child? After all, you punish a criminal by condemning him to death to prevent him from ever committing that crime. Ever. To prevent him from enjoying the sweetbreads of life. Then, if the baby is guilty of some future crime, perhaps rape, then under your laws, he should be punished, correct?

Then, I charge, that YOU are the immoral one, for allowing murderers and rapists to run free, simply because you wanted to play the role of chance to see if he'll lead the good life! You could have prevented the deaths and rapes of countless thousands, but because you decided to let life live, people have suffered.

(I CAN PLAY MORALITY ARGUMENT TOO LOL)

>>2431477
Average everday life decisions that a sizable number of people will face, yes it is.

We are not talking about greedy corrupt mexican governments and congo slave trading fucking moron.

>>2431448

I am 2431346. I also lack a womb, because I have balls.

Also, I just noted the double standard, and what the idea of abortion must feel like for women.

GEEZ I SURE DO SOUND LIKE THAT CALM RATIONAL ARTIST DUCK. HOPEFULLY SOMEONE GETS WHAT I AM GOING FOR.

I don't need to read anything to say this. CASE BY CASE BASIS. That solves everything. If EVERY CASE is examined, we can see the mothers who are clearly not ready to take care of a child/not ready/underage/what the fuck have you. WHY ARE WE NOT MAKING THIS A STANDARD? If they want to keep the baby, then FINE. If they don't then it's taken to a sort of trial where it is determined whether the child is kept or aborted, OR raised and put into foster care or some other alternative care. Adoption, whatever.

>>2431542
That would pave the way for a multitude of lawsuits that would only serve the purpose of setting precedents to allow every nigra and her sisters to get a abortion wtf is the point.

>>2431242

Umm, but that's just the thing, Christians are better at whining because they have actual points to make. What's your point? Freedom? Laws aren't meant to promote freedom, they're meant to restrain it. Too much freedom means chaos. I mean, who the hell decided it was so damn immoral to kill people? Some people just straight up need to die. The only difference is public opinion, because that's what (should) decide what laws there are. In almost every single state, the voting populous has struck down gay marriage laws and the only reason abortion stays in place and unquestioned is because of Roe v. Wade, which Roe is actually pro-life now. Marijuana shouldn't be illegal because changes in substance laws almost always end up in increased usage and abuse (read: when alcohol's legal limit was decreased in the 70s) It's not because we whine, you guys whine just as much.

>>2431565

sorry, meant to say "shouldn't be legal"

>>2431542
Case by case doesn't cut it though, because it will ultimately be people who decide who gets an abortion and who doesn't. And it will be ruled by people who will be swayed by society, religion, politics, etc.

There is more to it than case by case. There is morality, whether religion defines morality or the other way around, whether the government reflects society or is independent of it.

Also, case by case would take a LONG. FUCKING. TIME. people would get illegal abortions because by the time they've decided, you already have a kid.

>>2431579
Yeah I suppose you're right. I always think I'm so smart when I'm drunk!

I once knew a woman who had an abortion out of spite.

She had just divorced her husband while very prominently pregnant.

Her husband tried to let him keep the baby and raise it himself.

She aborted it instead.

Why should that be legal?

>>2431601
I was thinking a way to make it work, but i can't think of a way that doesn't dead end into a person while beliefs programming it somehow.

sorry broseph :(

>>2431448
>Letting the government tell you that you don't have to be responsible for your actions because you can go to the doctor and fix it is much more damaging then imposing rules for responsibility.

That is an implicit message. The government isn't telling you anything other than what the law states and the consequences the government will attempt to impose for certain actions. Just because there isn't a law against abortion DOES NOT MEAN that the government is 'telling you' you don't have to be responsible. Going to the doctor and going through an abortion is a consequence... but further more..

PLEASE. STOP CLAIMING THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO TEACH US ALL RESPONSIBILITY. NO ONE COMPLETELY GETS IT UNTIL THEY GO THROUGH IT.

LIFE TEACHES RESPONSIBILITY, NOT YOU WHO DEMAND ABORTIONS BE OUTLAWED IN SMALL OR LARGE PART.

SHE'LL HAVE THE ABORTION OR NOT. SHE HAS IT, AND IT COULD BE THE BEST OR WORST DECISION IN HER LIFE. SHE ABORTS IT AND IT, COULD BE THE BEST OR WORST DECISION IN HER LIFE. THE BABY IS A FIGMENT OF THE IMAGINATION BECAUSE ITS A FETUS. DRAW THE LINE WHERE HUMANITY BEGINS AND YOU'RE TRAPPED ANYWAY: it's really fucking hard to prove awareness exists. I wonder at what point a baby passes a turing test. ROFL.

I have to promise myself not to write anymore in this thread. Life is the teacher, not the government. Your concern for the fetus/potential human inside is really a concern for the POTENTIAL human being int he future, LATER ON ---SOMETHING NOT REAL---.

abortion is taking an utterly grave responsibility, the responsibility is there whether or not you abort it, and MAKING A DECISION.

= =

>>2431565
>Laws aren't meant to promote freedom, they're meant to restrain it.

Bullshit. You only have the freedom to post because there are laws which prevent me from breaking your will and turning you into a mindless drone, slaving away for my sole benefit.

1) Go to highschool in Southern California
2) See the gangsters that breeds like rabbits that is the majority Latino population
3) see pregnant 13 year-olds who are pro-life or have pro-life families and wont get an abortion
4)???
5) legalize/enforce abortion

I'm suprised no one mentioned killing a pregnant bitch is double homicide.

>>2431665
I'm suprised you didn't ctrl-f to find out that in fact it has been brought up in this thread. You just made yourself look like a retard.

>>2431612

I don't know. I can't make any assumptions because in the long run they mean nothing.
Though if i could make some...

The mother would've rejected her child at birth, forever in spite of the man who spawned it. Just because he offers to take care of "it" doesn't mean its completely his. its her baby, too.

Then you're denying the child a mother.

Its really complicated, isn't it? Its more than just an egg combining with a sperm to make "life." Much more happens after that initial merging of cells.

Though I really can't say. I'm not the mother, or the father.

>>2431639
yes, exactly, they restrain your freedom to take that privilege away from me. you are not free to take my freedom away. laws buy and sell freedom, just like actions. if you kill someone, you restrain their freedom to live, while promoting your own freedom to kill them. if you rob someone, you restrain their freedom to own that thing, while exercising your freedom to steal things from them. laws simply separate what should be free to do and what should not be free to do. So if you just use "freedom" as a blanket statement or whatever, it's not enough. You have to have the support of the populous and rationality to back it up.

So feeling sorry for someone who is stuck in a shitty situation because they couldn't keep their legs shut is a reason to legalize something?

what the fuck you moron. let the girl live with the fucking decision and maybe her daughter won't be so goddamned irresponsible.

>>2431639
word.

>>2431665
only by current definition in the law (most pregnant, murdered mothers aren't planning to have an abortion (? i think) and generally the kid that will probably exist in the future without the suicide is counted as dead too..

only problem is if we count all the 'potential' people that have been murdered...

holy fuck :[

>>2431697
you don't need reasons to legalize something
you need reasons to make something illegal

>>2431697
>what the fuck you moron. let the girl live with the fucking decision and maybe her daughter won't be so goddamned irresponsible

i like this plan LOL

>>2431679

alright, yes the man would have to raise it without a mother. what would you choose? existing without a mother or existing at all? If there is the will, the money and the support to do so, what reason do you have not to? It's not that complex, 50% of marriages end up in divorce. We can't just go around killing all the kids that live in broken homes, can we? Lots of great people grew up in broken homes, including our president. Human beings aren't even naturally meant to be with a father, that's just a societal perception. So what difference does it make if you're "denying the child a mother?"

>>2431732
If you follow what most people against abortion believe in, then having both a father and a mother mean plenty.

Also, life potential doesn't exist. The child hasn't lived yet. Anything he COULD do is simply that, just a possibility. There is the possibility he won't do anything worthwhile. Worse yet, there's the possibility he does something infamous. But it doesn't matter, it hasn't HAPPENED, and has no bearing on the matter at hand.

Thats why I prefaced I can't make any presumptions about the situation. It doesn't matter, because it none of it ever happened.

Also...

YOU NEVER ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE
YOU NEVER ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE
YOU NEVER ASKED TO BE BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE

Before you ask which is better, existing or not existing, please remember that. If you knew what existence was before you were born, would you have said yes?

Think hard about that.

ITT:
people justify murder by saying it is:
A: Fair to the unborn baby that he never achieves or fails
B: Helps poverty and society by filling it with less unwanted babies (brotip people go overseas to adopt because there aren't enough domestic)
C: A choice of the mother who is apparently smart enough to pre-determine whether a fetus is needed or not.

>>2431651
oh, so let's just euthanize the undesirables, that's great. Why doesn't the rest of society have sex and make babies to populate the rest of the earth? because we're afraid of commitment and we're afraid of sex because of the media and stupid religious perceptions. Yes, so I'm just glad that you know that our cold feet races will die out and be taken over by latinos and middle easterners because they believe abortion to be immoral. Also, black people have the most abortions out of any race (Margaret Sanger actually intended for it to be used against black people).

Guys don't have the right to have an opinion of abortion

>>2431790
I say those are pretty good summations, regardless whatever tone you list them with.

I don't understand what's to justify
a fetus isn't even real
who cares if some whore gets rid of it?

>>2431796
>>Also, black people have the most abortions out of any race (Margaret Sanger actually intended for it to be used against black people)

AND CRIME LEVELS HAVE DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY.
I'm not saying Sanger wasn't racist. Though I must painfully agree, her ideas have reduced crime.

>>2431808
Saying a man can't understand what a woman goes through with pregnancy is a way of saying that you deserve special rights to murder because you have a womb and he does not. And that womb can be filled with unwanted children because of your very apparent lack of self control.

>>2431813
fashion diva at what point does a baby gain rights?

>>2431840
whenever everyone agrees it does

I never said I was against murder.

>>2431813

BECAUSE THE BITCH MUST BE TAUGHT A LESSON
SHE MUST BE PUNISHED WITH THE BURDEN OF LIFE

SHE HAS TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT SHE DID
REGARDLESS WHO ELSE SUFFERS

Someone should really explain to the pope that sperm only contain half the amount of genetic material needed to produce a human.

>>2431784
ah, i love when people listen and make actual arguments. thank you. Well, basically, yes you can't deal with what's going to happen in the future because it hasn't happened yet. And you can't say that someone great "could" have been aborted because the fact that didn't exist would effect the world and possibly create an equally great person. So, yes, fate is a fickle, fickle, thing. That's why we have to cling to our beliefs, our morality, and our ideas about the world, because otherwise fate would decide everything for us. so, in regards to fate, i realize that was a cheap shot, but i believe that anyone would say yes to existence, and i have a generally positive view towards existence, even considering the disgusting and terrible shit that happens up here. I also believe that abortion is immoral simply because i believe that fate SHOULD decide the existence of life. I do believe abortion is a man-made idea, and not a part of natural existence. If you don't believe that, that's perfectly fine and I respect it, but thank you for articulating your argument without ignorance.

>>2431855
Is it not painfully obvious that no human being is born with the capacity to think? And that these capacities develop within the womb and as a infant?

why should we deny a baby these rights to exist because we feel he is not intelligent enough to defend himself/think at age x?

>>2431784
the heart of the matter at hand

>>2431623
i agree, the government shouldn't teach responsibility, you ragging feminist whore, the government should ensure healthy social behavior.

>>2431884
what?
it's like you didn't read what I posted, and instead responded to what you maybe expected me to post

I don't really know how to make sense of what you posted in light of what I did

also, what?
did you just imply both that humans aren't born with the capacity to think and that that capacity develops in the womb?
I'm not really sure what that means

abortion is only a binary issue because we have made it into one. there is a middle ground, in that birth control usage is dramatically increased and abortions are dramatically decreased. Also all abortion should be banned after the first trimester unless the mother's health is at serious risk.

>>2431840
I didn't say I was for or against it, though I'm for a right to choose. All I said was if you're a guy it's not about you, fuck off, you don't get to form an opinion.

I'm all for murder of the stupid, I only wish it were legal. The human race needs culled of people like the OP.

Protip: God doesn't exist, if you actually believe in some magical sky genie, you're a fucking RETARD!

Obviously a troll but I'll take my shot at this. As long as niggers and other worthless poor trash have access to safe and legal abortion they don't spawn worthless nigger children that grow up to rob me.

Simple as that.

>>2431873
>>That's why we have to cling to our beliefs, our morality, and our ideas about the world, because otherwise fate would decide everything for us.

I fundamentally agree with you on this. I also, with my very basic knowledge of world religions, fundamentally agree with religion. Its one of those views I probably differ greatly on with my peers, though I do believe morality isn't a creation of religion, but rather morality created religion, and that morality is what allows us to survive as a species, which allows us to live above our trappings as existing bodies.

Religion is simply one of those ways to reaching some sort of morality that allows people to be generally loving people. Though it has been perverted, though I can never understand for what reason.

But, I thank you for being civil and coming up with well thought out responses to my arguments. And know that, while I disagree with your ideas, I have the utmost respect for you for allowing me to allow you to shape my ideas.

for everyone else
ur gay lol

>>2431912
magical sky genie owns :P
so true for some people GOOD LORD.
but you don't believe in any controlling force in the universe?
Like it's all just undirected matter?
You don't believe religion is science but on a higher, much too complex for humans to understand, level?

>>2431902
saying women are the only ones who have a say in birth is retarded. Remember that it took another human being with a penis to get that fucking egg in you fertilized.

>>2431912
This argument is not about the existence or non-existence of a magical sky genie.

It is about whether or not human beings (NOT JUST WOMEN FUCKING DAMMIT) have the capacity to decide when a unborn baby has the right to live.

>>2431912
i always lol at idiots atheists like you making definitive statements about God not existing. Even Dawkins has never said categorically that God doesn't exist. you have as much proof for your statement as the religious people have for the existence of God.

agnosticism is the only belief that makes sense.

>>2431922
funny that that's not really a troll argument, it's actually a pretty legitimate one...
it just pisses off a lot of people that it's TRUE

>>2431948
>>2431922

It pisses me off that its true...
but goddamn...
it really is D:

>>2431929
Religion is an archaic way of explaining how the world works. Before science, people wanted an answer to where we came from so they just made it up one day.

Once science came into the picture, the pieces started to slowly come together. Science may not have ALL the answers, but that doesn't mean that the stories made up thousands of years ago are true, it just means we haven't figured it out yet.

>>2431922
>>2431948
>>2431952

of course its true. but its not racist. if anything, it speaks to the power of individuals to make good economic decisions about their future. a poor woman knows she isn't ready to bring a child into the world so she has an abortion.

Well if a woman gets raped by her uncle and she gets pregnant, I believe it is her right to have an abortion. No one wants to raise a lil flipper demon that is a constant reminder of rape and incest.

Sometimes you gotta ask yourself, "what is so moral about bringing more life into this fucked up world?"

>>2431978
>>2431968

a religionfag would say that is people saying they know better than god.

and you would probably just discredit them because they believe in something so silly as afterlife.

>>2431978
Poor people breed poor people.
Poor conditions breed hasty actions.
Hasty actions are why I get mugged on a saturday night infront of an ATM.

The only thing that stays constant is that people like fucking, and kids are the result of that.

Some poor lady has the foresight to know that bringing up a kid is economically hard and life will suck for both her AND the kid. That's nice, that's why abortions were made. I can 99 percent guarantee that her kid would've probably robbed someone. And not because of some morality not gained because he's poor. HE'S POOR. POOR PEOPLE DO SHIT LIKE THAT.

Morality isn't attainable if you constantly have to worry about where your FOOD is coming from.

>>2432010
people who discredit religion fags r dumb

scientists dont have time machines and cant prove that big bang->primordial soup->evolution jazz

religious types don't have solid proof enough to convice sciencefags that god created the universe

neither side really has legs to stand on.

inb4 big bang. LOLFEST where did the materials for it come from? Science just willed them into being? lol right

The problem is not that libfags promote murder or anything. If one defines murder as the willful taking of human life (life as in consciousness, not genetic material), the question becomes when does the fetus become alive? Most scientific evidence would tell us not for some time. Even so, another related question is whether or not killing something that will eventually have human life (as all fetuses will, baring some sort of gestational problems) can be defined as murder. I for one think it can be, however abortion right now is a necessary evil. Unless we live in some sort of society that could take care of all the unwanted babies/pay for the mother's medical expenses, abortion can't be made illegal.

Also, a baby is just as much the father's as the mother's. I hate dumb cumdumpster cunts who think that they can just decide things like this on their own. In their ideal world the father would support the hypothetical baby, so the father should have every right to decide with the mother.

Now, religious people, stop trying to impose your beliefs as the morality of the state. Atheist people, stop pointlessly insulting someone's religious views. Use the reason God gave you/you evolved and figure this the fuck out without insulting each other.

>>2431968

well true, but you don't think that religious writings have any truth? sure, the world wasn't created in seven days and mohammed probably was tripping on food deprivation... but it all adds up to something you know. without the IDEA of Christ, the roman empire probably would have kept oppressing people, and whatever came up to take it over would have been even more oppressive. Now I realize that the Christian Church has never been unoppressive, but there always had to be some inkling of an idea of those original writings of Christ (which was extremely peaceful and unoppressive). yes, fundamentalists need to be phased out, but religion does hold merit in the grand scheme of things

>>2432026
no time machine fallacy

I'd say kill the fuckers. Better to do it when they don't even have a full consciousness than to force them into this world where the only escape is to kill themselves.

>>2431928
As much as I'd like to say that you're completely wrong, only a fool would listen to such an argument.
What makes the morals of religion any more reliable than the genetic morals that we all share?
Have you actually read what the morals of religion says? The morals of religion are different to what we'd believe today. The bible recommends giving out your daughter for people to rape and abuse so they do not harm your guest, stoning homosexuals, and other abhorrences. Islam is not much better. I do not know much about the book, but I am told that it promotes peace. So how can a book that promotes peace be interpreted as something to justify something like flying planes into buildings? And if it isn't something that promotes peace, it's not a good moral guide at all! Same with Judaism, as they just have the most archaic parts of the bible. They're all taking from morals that have been outdated.
So they pick and choose from their religion. By what criteria? How do they pick from the bible what is bad and what is good? So stoning people to death is bad, we know this, but the bible says it's a-ok for gays. You'd be going against your own belief.
So why believe in a jumped up fairy tale anyway? Why not try and base morals on something that wasn't just made up a while back?
And you may be talking about religion as a general point, but when you look into it, all major religions are full of crap.
And >>2431873 is full of crap.
>Natural existence
This makes me fairly annoyed. Ignoring hundreds of years of zoological study just to support your own narcissism. It's ridiculous.

>>2432045

>bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
mootblack

>>2432049
faggot
lrn2extremist islam sects history
lrn2 bible (that bit about your daughter is from judges, a quite interesting read btw)
also the new testament pretty much plainly states that jews go to hell if they dont convert

>>2432088
Because those examples nullify my argument completely.

Please, do explain why they do.

>>2432049
I was hoping for this to be raised, simply because I don't have the energy to nitpick through religions like you have.

I for one also am troubled by the nitpicking morality of religions. But something inside me cannot completely throw religion into the "crap" folder of my mind. I never said that I specifically got my morals from religion, but I know that many people do. Its only fair to understand where others argue from.

No religion goes by the entire word of their respective holy text. If they did, they would be a complete walking contradiction, as you've pointed out. Maybe its the fact that the human mind has the ability to be so flexible that we can pick what we agree with and discard what we know to be old, tired, and useless.

But the old, tired, and useless rules of morality still dictate certain cultures, no matter how bizarre or deadly they are.

I myself am at an impass. Clearly, you aren't.

>>2432092
I'm basicaly saying that you are denouncing religions in that they are a hodgepodge of pick and choose, do as you please as long as its popular when THEY ARE NOT. that is what you are doing in your example.

>>2432049
i meant natural existence for human beings. technically you could say that abortion is part of natural existence because (duh) we do it.

But what makes my argument any less narcissistic than yours? You discredit religion with such fervor and enthusiasm that you make it seem like it has no merit at all. You ignore the fact that some of the best natural scientists (Gregor Mendel) were extremely religious and found God through their studies.
The Bible and all the books of Islam are extremely primitive and imperfect, and i wouldn't expect any rational person to believe all the arguments. I would opt for an allegorical interpretation (but that's my own belief). What I can't believe is how you dismiss a perfectly rational argument and discussion and criticize for using the same tactics you already do yourself. Besides, none of us were saying that any of those books should be taken literally, you pulled that out of your own ass.

>>2432033
your raise interesting points and have a reasonable conclusion. but you should be more assertive.

>>2432097
Ah, so that's why EVERY SINGLE CHRISTIAN IS KILLING GAYS.

>>2431891

man 'healthy social behavior,' that really clarifies what you mean~

..

>>2429276
This is so retarded. I'm pro-choice, but if you actually understand why people object to abortion (beyond OMG SKYGOD) then there's no reason for a man who has those convictions to just "shut up."

If a fetus was an actual human life, should a man believe that, it would be his moral obligation to stop women from killing it. Even if he, as a male, would never be put in the position to commit this act of "murder," it would still be his moral duty to stop it from happening.

Jesus christ, don't you people get that these guys actually believe abortion is the murder of babies? Do childless people have the right to object to the murder of actual children or is that reserved for parents?

I mean, yeah, it's a stupid thing to believe, but if you believe it, you'd be a fucking piece of shit to not try and stop it just because you're a man and "it's not your place." Frankly I don't know how the majority of them manage to stay peaceful about the whole thing.

Babies aren't people. They have no rights. Given the surplus population, far from finding abortion conscionable, I find it inexplicable NOT to exterminate the little drips before they're conscious enough to have a meaningful existence. Why does OP care so little for the fully conscious lives that exist RIGHT NOW?

Why, because he's a troll.

>>2432132
so why is there such a big outcry about "freedom of religion" when the subject matter is prayer in schools and putting up signs on the highway, but you don't have the "freedom" to stop something your religion says is bad?

>214 replies
OH U
blockock

>>2432096
So the human mind has the ability to decide what is right and wrong, morally wise?
By what criteria does the basis of this moral decision come from? It doesn't come from religion, as that's the thing you're thinking about.

From your post, I come to an understanding that you think of religion as a sort of 'throw shit at a wall until it sticks'.
It throws ideas at you, and then you decide if they are right or wrong.
This is not where I have the problem.

The problem is then when you use your religion as a cited source for your morality. 'X is wrong because the holy book Y says so'.
It's like citing a dictionary. Complete nonsense.
It's a double standard. If you're not taking the whole book, then you cannot use the book to say that the ideas are right, when you discard some of them because they're wrong.
It's like finding a textbook, but it's from 1700 and says that electricity is a liquid and that clouds are made from water. You cite that clouds are made of water, and why is it true? Because it came from this ultra-reliable textbook.
Complete nonsense. It's true not because it's in a book, but because we already know the answer for other reasons.

>>2432153
Because you don't have the authority to stop it? And neither does your religion.

if op really was an outright troll, as many of us would believe,

how win is he? did he have to supplement the thread with counter-arguments or did he win the mega-lottery and just post the topic and watch everyone do the macarena?

>>2432160
I completely agree with you, believe it or not. That's the main problem I have with religion, with X Holy Book being the be all end all of the argument. Its the main reason I cannot join a major religion.

I think where we differ at is the fact that I want to find a way to rationalize religion. Maybe I can. I most likely can't, but I sure as hell want to.

To everyone saying that stupid people shouldn't reproduce, what makes you think that intelligence of the parents is linked to intelligence of the child?

>>2432249
I think their point was that stupid people aren't fit for parenthood.

>>2432261

I guess that's true.

>>2432249
Dumb people don't make dumb kids.
Poor people raise poor kids.
Dumb and poor just come hand in hand.

Skanky pregnant sluts breed more skanky pregnant sluts. Think about it.

Granted I've skimmed a few of the more tl;dr posts in this thread, but I'm pretty sure no one's mentioned that being prepared to have an abortion is, in fact, a responsible thing.

As long as a woman is on birth control, no one should force them to give birth to a fucking accident.

The real issue you all should be discussing is religious fags NOT TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN ABOUT FUCKING BIRTH CONTROL. Most of the poor/stupid people that are so against abortions are the same ones that are put in a situation where an abortion would be needed because they don't think birth control is "moral" or no one has bothered to tell them how easy it is to get it.

FUCK.

>>2432198
>did he have to supplement the thread with counter-arguments or did he win the mega-lottery and just post the topic and watch everyone do the macarena?

HEEEEEEEY MA-CA-RENA!

But I'm not against murder...

A fetus is not considered anything close to a human until after the second trimester. Before this a fetus has all the potential to become a human but is at that moment, nothing but an unthinking blob of cells.

When a fetus is aborted in the first or second trimester you are putting a stop to the creation of a life. How does this potential life outweigh the rights and freedoms of the woman who is pregnant to have control over her own body? She is already alive, already thinks and feels and is capable of deciding if having a child is a risk she is willing to take. There are always risks involved in pregnancy. I certainly wouldn't want to bleed to death in an emergency room giving birth to a baby I never wanted. So how can anyone expect that of women?

I would accept the reasoning behind abortions after the second trimester being banned. As the fetus develops it becomes more unclear if it should be considered human or alive. But before that time we are just dealing with potential and since potential can go both ways (the fetus could develop into a saint or a murderer) this point is irrelevant.

tl;dr Abortions before the third trimester are stopping a human from being created, not murder.

Hot pot of Jesus's anal drippings, you fucktards.

First off, we wouldn't need abortions if you religifags would teach your fucking offspring to wrap up their shit when fucking niggers or Mexicans, or failing that, just sterilize the little shitknuckles so there wouldn't be the problem in the first place.

Second, stop being such a faggot for Jesus so that your kids don't start fucking niggers or Mexicans without taking the adequate precautions just to spite you.

Third, kill yourself, religifag. Seriously. Jesus needs to see you right now. GO TO HIM.

>>2432535 cont
As has been mentioned earlier, abstinence only sex and low income families are perpetuating a cycle of uneducated, desperate people. People are going to keep having sex. All banning abortion is going to do is make these problems worse, result in more teen mothers, more violent, poor, uneducated children, more crime and a greater divide between between the few rich and powerful who control the country and the poor and desperate who are too preocuppied with trying to escape from a cycle of debt and despair to even think about politics, voting, global issues etc.

Making the cycle of poverty worse is not going to help the country. Banning abortions is not going to help the families or the mothers.

How is forcing the development of potential lives into something that can be considered human worth more than all this?

>>2432602
Because all religious faggots secretly want the world to get worse so their little faggot savior will come down from the sky and swoop them up like that retarded Scottish girl said he would-- NOT, as most Jesusfags believe, the Book of Revelations.

Sorry, you cunts. The Rapture isn't real, and all you're going to do is sink deeper and deeper into the shit you're helping to create.

Generations from now, the descendents of these Jesusfags will look back upon their actions and will be glad that they're no longer alive.

Afterwards, they'll pay their respects by pissing and shitting on their graves.

>>2432601
>>2432602
>>2432638

i couldn't let this thread end with the angry, retarded atheist having the last word

>>2434958

But how are they wrong?

>>2434958
so you put a squeaky sour note at the end. Good show.

>>2434958
Go go go angry, retarded theist!
Jesus feeds on your nerd rage!

i am pro abortion. fuck mincing words, i want as many people to commit abortion as possible. there's too many of us as it is.

Unborn fetuses die all the time naturally. S'called miscarriages. (Dunno exactly what my point was there, but I just wanted to say that.)
ANYWAY, I don't think it's really anyone's place to stand in the way of a woman and her own rights and choices. Some women will become accidentally pregnant, and have the baby anyway. In fact, I have a friend who did that, and her boyfriend's family adopted the baby. But sometimes it's not that easy. She couldn't take care of the baby herself, she's ony 18. The option for abortion always needs to be there.
And OVER POPULATION, DAMMIT.
ALSO, in my high school, every new class that entered the high school was 50+ more kids than the last. Over. Crowded.
tl;dr irrelevant shit coming out of my mouth, but stuff I wanted to say nonetheless.

>>2435036

That just leads to the intelligent people not having any kids, while the stupid godfags and poorfags still reproduce like bunnies.

A fetus is not sentient until it develops a conscience and a brain.

A human person is sentient.

>>2435219
So doesn't that mean that abortions should be made mandatory? That is to say that there would be a mandatory screening to decide which ones would be aborted.

>>2429234
Less than three months is still abortion, and we're for abortion within that range.

Considering how most "conservatives" like treating people in general, their opposition to abortions is quite inconsistent.

Good thing I'm pro-population control!

Murder's cool with me. If you can't defend yourself or be aware of the situation, you don't deserve to live.

Oh, mighty robot. Mighty robot, mighty you.

Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others.

WHO CARES ABOUT ABORTION, REALLY?!

It's NOT the problem and answering it is NOT the answer.

Telling stupid fucking no intelligent kids to not fuck, or at least use some protection is however.

>>2435301
Nope, it's consistent.
Conservatives are anti-people, so they fuck over the real people (i.e. women).

Why not avoid getting knocked up in the first place if you don't want to get pregnant?

>>2435257

I'd prefer sterilization based on IQ tests.

IQ tests are imperfect, they're the best we got.

Only people with no empathy are against abortion.

i'm pro murder. especially if its a nigger baby.. or mexican. cmon, how many people do we kill in wars with bombs? those people might have kids and family, or server important roles in their community.. but that's just fine.. but killing babies who are nothing but parasites at that point at which they are eliminated? GASP how could you, you heartless commie. get a fucking clue. we are SUPER FUCKING OVERPOPULATED. murder is the way of the fucking world. what happens in nature when a type of animal has nothing around to keep its population in check? it eats all the available food sources to death, and they ALL DIE. this is whats happening to humans now.. but hey.. we need more babies! or else we might actually survive, and we cant have that!

Steven Levitt, an extremely reputable economist, supports abortion, for crime related reasons.

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/what-do-declining-abortion-rates-mean-for-crime-in-
the-future/

Give it a read. Please. It's not long.

I'm all for abortion.
What disgusts me is fellow liberals who are too queasy to admit that abortion is murder.
It is murder, dammit. Stop trying to deny it, or justify it morally.
Just admit that, like me, no one wants the excess of people that is present, and everyone wants to be given the opportunity to flush their baby if it seems that its detrimental to their lives.
It is murder. And it is not morally acceptable. But I dont care for that as long as I am in a better position.
If you want to be all moral and rights, then I'm sorry, but conservatives win the argument. The right for a human to live is greater than the right to live comfortably.
Just admit that you don't care about the rights of the unborn child, and escape all moral arguments.

Ok guys, seriously. Look at yourself. Do you think any of you look smart? (in b4 hypocrite. I know I'm a hypocrite, we're past this.)

Do you think ANY of you look smart?

OP, if you're a troll, bravo but holy fuck pick a more original topic. OP if you're not a troll, HOLY FUCK YOU'RE STUPID.

All of you are stupid. Even if your argument is smart, even if your argument is the MOST CORRECT, even if you've PERSONALLY SPOKEN TO GOD (assuming one exists) AND ARE SAYING HIS EXACT WORDS, you are wrong.

All of you are wrong.

There is no right answer, EVEN IF THERE IS A RIGHT ANSWER.

Get that into your head. There is no right answer. There is no right answer.

Say it with me now, "There is no right answer. There is no right answer."

This is a debate that turned into an argument that turned into bullshit. It doesn't fucking matter.

Here are some simple points from both sides to take away from this.

To those that are Pro Abortion: Please try to consider that despite there not being a kid YET, there will be one. You are preventing somebody that might be the greatest leader the world has ever known from coming into existence. Do you have the right to prevent that life, even if it isn't life yet?

To those of you that are against abortion: Most people who get abortions are too poor to support the kid in the first place. That kid would grow up in a life that is really really terrible in comparison to the "terrible" life that you had growing up. No, seriously, depending on the parents, not ever being born might be better than the life they're forced to live.

>The right for a human to live is greater than the right to live comfortably.

So we should have as many people as possible?

Overpopulation past sustainability is moral??

>>2435517
>people with no empathy
Way to sum up the right-wing, sport.

>>2435756
Because the left is made out of pure, concentrated empathy?

>>2435639
Killing a fetus that has not grown a brain is like killing plants, or killing bacteria, or parasites.

FFFF! Stop it stop it stop it!

Now you're just fucking bickering about the sides. You're not even fucking talking about the issue!

Holy crack, people! They're not wrong just because they disagree with you!

Are any of you having fun? Are any of you having fucking fun? Do EITHER OF YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE CONVINCING THE OTHER SIDE, or even WINNING!?

Neither of you are winning, by the way.

So you want to have an intellectual discussion on the topic, in an Anonymous Forum so you don't have to fear the backlash of society when you express opinions that others don't agree with, but then as soon as you're IN that situation, LASHING BACK AT THEM BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU IS ALL YOU DO!

>>2435744
lrn2detect sarcasm.
Read the first sentence of that post.

and >>2435719,
I hate you, but I agree with your last two sentences.

>>2435719
Shine, I was in love with you until this post.

There is a right answer and there is a wrong answer. We can't live our lives staying on neutrality. And in the case of abortions there is obviously a right answer because it affects you. If you're pro-choice and the douche bag pro-life people eradicate abortion, then you're fucked with your pregnant wife who got preggers despite being on the pill.

I'm sorry, but there is a right answer when someone's wrong answer is affecting you.

>>2435825
No, but don't you SEE?! You're no more right than they are.

So you say that their erradicating abortion affects YOU but they think that your GETTING an abortion affects the SOON TO BE BORN CHILD.

Their feelings about your getting an abortion are similar to your (likely) feelings about torture in the middle east and how our government shouldn't be doing that.

ARE YOU A MIDDLE EASTERNER?! WHY DO YOU CARE IF TORTURE IS GOING ON DOWN THERE? WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPOSE ON THE GOVERNMENT'S RIGHTS TO TORTURE PEOPLE.

What? They shouldn't be torturing those people because they are "human"?

THEY THINK YOUR FETUS IS HUMAN!


There's no fucking right answer... Would somebody that is against abortion argue with me so I can argue for it? As is, I seem very pro-life.

>>2435719

Hah, you're an asshole.

I love how you say everyone is stupid and yet have nothing to say.

>>2435903

I have nothing to say because there IS NOTHING TO SAY, YOU FUCKING IDIOT!!!

I keep saying there is NO RIGHT ANSWER.

I'm not saying what I think is the right answer because THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER.

And that post above about mandatory contraceptives? That was an attempted compromise, not a solution.

>>2435895
Except that there's no really rational justification for being pro-life or believing in God. That's why they usually go together.

Either way, I respect pro-life people because they fight for what they believe, no matter how retarded it is. You're just being the typical agnostic, calling both side douches and saying that the right answer is that there is no right answer.

But yeah, if either of those conflicts suddenly became, let's say, a war; I would agree with you. But so far this is only an uncivilized discussion and no one gets hurt.

Wow, it's SO easy to troll /r9k/ it's not even funny. All you have to do is say:

1. atheists are dumb
2. abortion
3. obama

and this board busts a nut over it

CONCLUSION: /r9k/ = libfags, atheists, and just all around retards who think internet is serious business

>>2435942
Jesus fucking SHIT! Are you listening to yourself?

Them them them them them them them them them.

WHY THE FUCK do they need a RATIONAL reason to believe in God? I've got a few selfish rational reasons that I've heard from their arguments.

Remember "the God Delusion" and its fun little satirical rant written by an atheist that said,

"Believe in god vs. Not believing in God. If you believe in God and God exists, then you go to heaven. If you believe and he doesn't exist, nothing happens. If you don't believe and he doesn't exist, nothing happens, but if you don't believe and he does exist, you go to hell."

Sure, God probably doesn't exist, but from a Game Theory perspective, an economic perspective AND A RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVE, it makes sense to believe in God.

THEIR REASON DOESN'T NEED TO BE FUCKING RATIONAL EITHER.

I mean, Holy Hell, I don't believe in God but I understand why they DO. Why can't you REALIZE that people OTHER THAN YOU have REASONING BEHIND THEIR BELIEFS?

>>2436000
Underage b&.
Jesus Shine, why do you even post here

>why do libfags love abortion
independentfag here and i love abortion because fetuses are not people.

>>2436000
>I'm an attention whore, woo, I have a name and a stupid little microsoft paint avatar, love me.
oh fuck you. you fucking twat.

Let me take this time again to say inb4 hypocrite. Seriously. I know that I'm becoming emotionally invested in something that I don't want any of YOU to EVER get yourself emotionally invested in... But come on, guys. Stop being trolled.

Stop being CAPABLE of being trolled!

STOP THINKING THE WORLD IS BLACK AND WHITE. IT ISN'T.

There are no universal answers. Morals are RELATIVE. There is no COSMIC REASON why ANYTHING is right or wrong.

Most of the assholes that fight for abortion rights just want to be able to abort a fetus for financial reasons, not spiritual reasons. Most pro-choice advocates are just being selfish dickwads. They don't want to have to support the kid AND MISS THEIR BIG CRUISE.

Most of the Pro-Life people are batshit insane bible thumping christians that don't have any compassion for the parents. They're the same people that cut funding for schools too, ironically.

It's not a debate over abortion, it's a debate over the freedom to BE BORN, vs the freedom to BE ALIVE.

Ok? OK?! O-FUCKING-KAY?!!!

flalrm

>>2436088
>Stop being CAPABLE of being trolled!
Stopped here.
2/10

>>2436057

I like shine.

(also hawt avatar style character is hawt)

>>2436088

Congratulations. You know that humans generally dont give a fuck about others and that the current abortion "debate" uses belief-based reasoning. The next step is to just heave a burdened sigh, shake your head, sit back and enjoy watching everyone make complete idiots out of themselves. If you dont like watching that, I suggest you develop a taste, because youre going to get a lot of it whether you like it or not.

>>2436088
I didn't even read your post, but I'd draw myself raping you if I weren't too afraid of being recognized by two or three people, had confidence in my drawing skills and weren't lazy enough to make a sloth seem hyperactive. And for no reason that could be even remotely related to the content of any of your posts ever.
Most likely my main reason would be that I'm not getting any.

pro-lifers just hate women, like 90% of /b/

they don't care about the right to life.
>"deal with the responsibilities and punishment"

punishment being a child.
wow, that's really for life. calling a child a punishment. be honest, you don't care about these little bundle of punishments.

you just want women to suffer for being sexually active.

>>2436126
.... o...kay....

I'll see you all later... I hope you can... come to... enjoy... your... anger towards one another.

I hope that you will eventually find happiness in the activities that you are doing that don't make you happy.

>>2436088
>Morals are RELATIVE
No shit sherlock.

>>2436202
Honestly, join Gaia or some other site. You're too srs.

>>2436088
To be fair us pro-choicers only want the fucking right to choose. Is it so fucking hard? Like the fucking bumper stickers say, "why would you trust me with a baby when you can't trust me with a choice?"
This is not just for me, this is for every rational person who fucked up. Getting rid of a fucking cluster of cells is not murder.

And about God, well, just look what religion does to people. Look what it does to the world. Shit, I care about this world and magical thinking gets in the way of progress.

But noooooooo, you're a self-righteous cunt. You say everyone can believe whatever they want.

Well, I believe niggers aren't human so it's OK to kill them. So excuse me while I kill all niggers. And don't dare to try to stop me, I have my reasons for thinking they're subhuman.

>Shine
>Opinions
n'aw see, n'aw.

>>2436202
You always bail out, Shine. You're a fucking pussy.

>>2436155

Please draw, put a mask on your character if you are afraid of identification.

>>2429234
Hey OP, what do you think makes the child suffer more - it being "killed" when it's still in the womb, or having to go through a life of shit because your parents are human trash?

The question that I have is when does life begin? One cells? Two cells? 500 cells? Or maybe a better question is, how does one define life? No one really knows a good answer. But the best timeline we got is that its ok to have an abortion during the first trimester. Which when one looks at the development period, that seems OK with me.

What I find frustrating is when someone freaks out about a woman having an abortion yet they do nothing to advocate help to people dying in other countries, for some reason I feel more empathy to the 5 yr old dying on the streets from starvation then I do for the unaware/unknowing fetus.

But I digress, there are other reasons to have late term abortions, as Mccain puts it "health" issues. So I dont support an outright ban of late term, but I would support restrictions on it.

So to answer your questions OP , yes a skanky pregnant slut, if her health was at risk, should be able to have a late term abortion.

And why do libfags love abortion so much? Eh, I dont think anyone LOVES abortion. I dont think any party is thrilled when someone has one. But intelligent people realize there are legitimate reasons to have an abortion and most of the general public agrees to those reasons : rape, health issues. And most people would agree that by three months, the thing one is aborting is not very alive or knowing.

>>2436256
Well, Shine didn't even reply to my post so I ran out of motivation, of which I didn't have much to begin with.

To be honest, I unexpectedly feel slightly offended and disappointed by the lack of reply from that cunt of a bitch.

>>2436250
I don't get it. You all tell me to leave and then when I do you insult me for leaving.

Should I stay or should I go? Want to throw another couple insults at me so you can all feel like you've won, and then I'll leave on a low note?

I can do that too. Whatever makes you happy.

>>2436344

I think a shine rape pic (or animated gif) would be sure to get a response from him.

>>2436358
Different people.
We want you to leave, but we don't want you to ragequit AND THEN COME BACK SOME OTHER TIME which is what you do.

>>2436358
People want you to stay so they can insult you. And just admit it, you fucking love the attention.
I know I would, if I was in your position.

And indeed I would work for it, if I weren't so lazy, as previously mentioned. I would go even so far as to make the most extravagantly pathetic display of virginity ever and avatarflirt with you until the end of days.

I also have enough alcohol to sustain the effort.

>>2436358
No, it just annoys me when people leave when we're in the middle of a discussion. And since you're a tripfag I can tell when you live in the middle of one and I can rage about it.

>>2436344
WHAT YOU MEAN LIKE HOW YOU COULDN'T GET HER ARROUSAL FLUIDS GOING NO MATTER HOW MUCH FOREPLAY YOU TRIED BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLEASURE A WOMAN!?

there. I have insulted you. Motivated? Less offended?

You care whether or not I give you attention? I thought you were one of the people that hates attention whores.

>>2436329

That baby is a ginger - it should still qualify for abortion.

>>2436383

I'm a different person again and to be honest I care not for the debate but shines pics give me a boner. (don't ask me why, there is something just incredibly hot about his avitar)

>>2436417
No, no, you got it all wrong. I never even SAW her in person.

Also, I never asked you to insult me. I only said that I felt slightly insulted by your lack of reply. Admittedly I had unrealistic expectations of any potential reply you might make, but...

Well, I'm not called CAPTAIN DOUBLE-FAGGOT for nothing!

And did I just say that I'd love the attention if I received any? Perhaps I really should rape some reading comprehension into you.

wut it do shine?

I'm basically pro-Death and that makes me a terrible person.

Firstly, I think it is a life. Yes. Secondly, I think it is also a part of the woman's body and she can do whatever the hell she wants with it.

I both think that it's fine if she wants to abort it, AND that it's murdering a potential human life. Women are not walking incubators. If the child could survive on it's own outside of the womb, AND there is someone related to the child who wants to see it survive, they may have it removed and take the responsibility on themselves. Otherwise it's part of the woman's body and if it can't survive without her and she doesn't want it there, the fucking thing dies.

A miscarriage is an abortion. lol

de tuhao shin

D'awww... Thanks for the compliments, guys.

Hey guys, I just thought of another argument.

So the fetus is life from conception, but when does it become a SEPERATE life from the mother? I'll argue that until the baby is born, the baby and the mother are the same person! It's like an arm or a leg, and the mom should have every right to cut off her arm or leg if it pains thee.

What do you think?

>>2436582
I thought you had drawn yourself a haircut. You should draw yourself a haircut again.

>>2436582
Pro-death here. You're totally correct.

The only problem I find with abortion is the father has no real rights. If the woman wants to abort the child, the father has no say in this. Which is fine but, if the woman wants to KEEP the child, the father has no say in this. Which is also fine except for child support. The woman is in complete control of this. If the father says, I do not wish to support this child, end it, he has no choice and MUST support it. If the woman says the same, the man has no say.

That's the unfair part. Child support being mandatory, even though the male has no say in it.

As long as the abortion is before something stupid like the 8th month of pregnancy, I don't see what the problem is.

Consider this situation: a high school couple has sex and the girl gets pregnant. She can have an abortion and "kill" the bundle of cells. Or they can have the baby, forcing both kids to drop out of school to make money to support the bastard, and have all 3 of them end up on welfare.

>>2436582
I think that this argument is flawed in that the fetus has a different genetic makeup than that of its mother. This differentiates it from an appendage in a way- if anything a fetus is more parasitic than just being "part" of a pregnant woman.

>>2436582

Life in this case implies individual life, soul, conscience, w/e. It is like saying that when a kangaroo jumps into a pouch they are suddenly one animal.

While if anything we could say the Baby is a parasite that is being removed, we could not say that it is not in and of itself a Biological Entity. It has all of its own independent organs, most importantly, Mind. Although it remains dependent on the mother as life support.

>>2436645
Kill the parasite then! >:|

>>2436645
Yes, but it can't survive without her. If you don't let her abort it she can just go on a rollercoaster enough times that her body becomes stressed and it miscarries. I mean literally, that life is in her hands no matter what you say about her ability to end it.

>>2436613
That is my main problem as well -- I have had a girl that dated me that I suspect tried to get pregnant to keep me. I would have been fucked in that situation.

>>2436613
Well... let's say that the HUSBAND should have the right to contest any and all surgeries performed on his wife, be they abortions, breast implants, getting her tubes tied, liposuction, whatever, and that the wife can only get the abortion her HUSBAND doesn't agree with, if a surgical consult argues that it's a high risk pregnancy, etc, and that the surgery will save her life.

Same would of course go in the other direction. Husband can't get a vasectomy without his wife's written consent.

But the BOYFRIEND has no right to stop his GIRLFRIEND from getting an abortion. A baby born out of wedlock's right to live is ENTIRELY up to the mother.

Fathers should have rights, but only legitimate, non-bastard children.

I CHANGE MY ANSWER.

Genetically re-engineer humans so they merge both genders, have both bits, and lay eggs after internal intercourse.

Women are no longer incubators, problem is solved for both non-genders. Everyone wins. Cake for everyone.

>>2436628

Or option B, girl takes 2 months off school one month from the due date and baby has been put up for adoption?

There must be a high demand for babies in the states as even rich celebs have to go abroad and settle for foreign kids.

>>2436721
What if the child is not the husbands, but is some other guy's kid? Does he have a say then?

And in your situation it's still fucked up. The boyfriend would still have to pay child support if the girlfriend decides to keep the kid. He's still fucked and it's still imbalanced.

ITT Dudes who hate women.

But what is happening to all these unused fetuses? We need to recycle these fetuses and not let them go to waste. There are people starving in Africa and we are throwing away perfectly good fetuses. We could string them up like marionettes and do fetal puppet shows. More seasonal solutions can include hanging them as ornaments on Christmas trees or stuffing for the turkey! Fetuses also make for a great natural organic fertilizer.

Really people, I think the bigger crime is throwing these unused fetuses in the trash. In these tough times of recession we must learn to utilize all of our renewable resources.

I think women should only have "rights" to have an abortion if they:

1. are raped.
2. had a condom that ripped.

Other than that, there's no reason.

Personally I just have no regard for human life. If a life has PROVEN it's worthwhile, fine, yes, I will defend that life to my own death.

But I will in no way defend a 'potentially useful' life. Prove it or die, I'm not sticking my neck out for worthless trash and I'm not going to stick it out for 'potential' anything.

>>2436732
The only reason rich celebs adopt over seas children is to make a political statement and/or get brownie points from the media.

Adopt foreign kid=DAAAAW, you're such a humanitarian
Adopt American born kid=Meh

>>2436725
Omelets are murder!

>>2436721
You're a fucking faggot.

mootblock

>>2436783
Not even YOU HAVE A MEDICAL CONDITION THAT WILL CAUSE YOU AND YOUR BABBY TO DIE IF WE DON'T ABORT?

>>2436761
Oh, sorry, I misinterpreted the main point of your above post. You're not complaining about the man's having no say, you're complaining about his having to support the kid.

Well, frankly, I feel there should be some sort of motion you can get passed, like bankruptcy, where you can forfeit all rights to see the kid in exchange for not having to support it.

The woman should get to do the same thing. If you refuse her right to have an abortion, then she'll be compensated heavilly for being forced to carry and birth the thing, and then give it to you to never bother you again.

>>2436721

I
I DRE THW THIN

OP, have you ever tried to have a conversation with a baby? Fuck that, they're stupid shits.

I rate worth based on intelligence- and something which doesn't understand how arms work, nonetheless do simple algebra isn't worth much.

>>2436879
That's basically my point. Bank robbery, someone is about to get shot to prove the robbers are serious, you have the option of being that guy instead of whomever the robbers choose.

I would, of course, go instead of someone I highly respect.

I would not stop them from shooting some worthless white trash or praddling valley-girl.

I would also not stop them from shooting some guy I know nothing about who could potentially be whatever. I can't save potential, I can only save what I know is already functioning as awesome.

So no. Unless that baby is somehow the cure for cancer or in some other way has my respect, abort it. We've got enough people of questionable potential. Stop trying to prevent potential-futures and deal with actual presents, please.

Oh hey, guys. I thought of another idea.

How about we make abortion legal, but we set RESTRICTIONS on it.

You have to go to court to get your abortion APPROVED.

You need an excuse. If you can make it obvious that you can't support the child then you can get the abortion. Something like, "I'm only 14 years old" or "I can barely pay the rent as is, another baby would drive me bankrupt" or "I'm black."

People who CAN support the child, however, would be denied the abortion.

Well?

>>2437045
No-one cares. Stop being an attention whore. Stick to drawfag threads.

>>2429234
I counter your question with a question. Why do repubfags love war so much?

Either way people die.

>>2437045
I think I would drawfag myself raping you if I wasn't all thumbs with this crappy tablet. Then I'd drawfag myself being the judge who denies your abortion.

>>2437045

I.D.I.O.T.

Please die in a mud puddle. With a thousand penorz growing out of your tits and face.

But... but why should we punish people for being RICH?

People who work hard shouldn't have LESS RIGHTS than people who SUCK AT LIFE!

>>2437045
No. You're putting too much trust and control on the government, which should really have nothing to do with my business and how I chose to live my life.

By doing that you are retroactively allowing the government to control breeding. They don't have FULL control but they'd be able to allow abortions for terrible babies and disallow them for others, and breed whatever traits they desire. No.

Shine, you're not actually intelligent enough to be making these kinds of decisions. Not insulting you, just saying. You're not informed enough and you show a lacking ability to see a larger picture in your statements.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT BABIES ARE A PUNISHMENT, STRAWMAN?!

>>2437145
You're a punishment.

AND a baby.

OOOOooooooh snap!

>>2437145
I'd punish you with a baby, if you know what I mean.

(If you know what I mean, then please tell me, because I got no clue.)

Well I think abortion should be legal any time... Also, the mother should have 30 days to kill or dispose of a baby.

But.... no one should kill kittens!

Aw fuck, she's arguing with herself now. In public. For attention.

>>2437177
>>2437177
Anything that cute must live forever.

Stop posting. Why the fuck can we see an eye through your hair? You're a fucking dumbshit that doesn't know anything!

In civilized nations even judges don't have the power to decide over sombody else's life and death.

I'm actually pro murder too

>>2437183
But you still care, bropalbuddy.

MANDATORY ABORTIONS FOR RETARDED BABIES!

Also, fuck getting pregnant. It's not alive until it's born. It's not useful until it's old enough to get me a beer.

NUH UH! NUH UH!

YOU'RE BEING AN AD HOMINIM! That's where you INSULT THE OTHER PERSON BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ARGUE!

AD HAWMINUM AAAADDDDDD HAAAAUUUUMMMMMMNIIIIIUNM!

I WIN BECAUSE YOU INSULTED ME!

>>2437207
Oho. That's how you do it you sneaky cunt.

>>2437213
Fuck yeah for pro-murder.

TROLL THREAD!!!111

HAVING DECLARED MYSELF THE VICTOR OF THIS THREAD, I'LL BE LEAVING NOW.

TATA. FLY AWAAAAAY.

>>2437288
Hot girl + nice weapon = FUCK YEAH.

She can have my abortion ANY day.

>>2437362
Ak-47 > M16

I hate most people.
If a nuclear war broke out, I wouldn't bat an eye. I would care more for the libraries and books burnt than the "People"

However, when it comes to abortion, I am adamant in my stance. The tiny little being, (Whether it be human or not) has the potential for greatness. While 90% of the births will end up being shit like their parents, there is still the small amount that will become something better than the rest. This also includes the so called potential to be "bad" as well.

You know the argument, "Well, there is equal chance for the baby to be the next Hitler as to be the next Einstein"

Guess what?

Even if we ban abortion, and get the next Hitler, It will add some spice to life, won't it? Wars allow the strongest to survive, allow new technology to be created.

So fuck abortion, all it's doing is slowing down the process of natural selection, one way or another.

If you are stupid enough not to fucking wrap your cock up, you deserve it.
and in rape and cases of retardation, go for it.

more retards is the last thing we need.

>>2437416
It's all about what the girl wants. Even if I somehow got pregnant (im a lesbian), I'd never stop drinking and doing drugs. I care about myself first, other people second. That's the only way shit gets done.

Shine's artist is male.

>>2437416
Perfect example of the aspie misanthropy that inspires so many people here to be lolbertarians and fascists.

>>2437472

OF COURSE! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

No GIRL would ever behave the way I do, I must be a man like YOU.

The character is still female though, right?

The difference between killing a fetus and killing a human is a fetus never had a life. If it's a potential life you're worried about killing then by your logic, every time you use a condom you're murdering billions of potential lives as sperm.

People who are so called 'pro-life' are full of shit, just like those against the gays, they feel very entitled to protest something that they haven't needed to personally deal with.

You can ban abortions all you want, but guess what, it won't stop people. As soon as you make it legal then you can enforce all kinds of laws on it to make it as safe as possible for everyone. Otherwise you'll just get clinics taking everyone's money and using whatever coathangers and detergents they want.

>>2437457
Why is it always about what the girl wants?
I keep hearing that over and over again.

Guess fucking what?

It takes two to make a fucking fetus, and the female doesn't have any more say than a man.

The only reason why people seem to think that they do it because of the pregnancy, right?

I've had four close friends get pregnant, and have the baby, and guess what?

They said the birth didn't hurt at all. All four of them.
Sure, you'll have morning sickness and backpain, maybe some stretch marks,

But you also get bigger breasts, get to eat whatever the fuck you want, and nine months of worry-free sex.

Regardless, sex is a partnership, and the result should be too. I realize that a lot of men will disregard their responsibilities, but for the few who don't, the decision shouldn't be totally in the womans hands.

>>2437535
>>2437535
>>2437535
>>2437535
You're a fucking sexist! YOU SAID THAT MEN AND WOMEN DESERVE EQUAL TREATMENT.

THAT MAKES YOU A SEXIST.

IMPLYING THAT WOMEN AREN'T SUPERIOR TO MEN IN EVERY WAY MEANS THAT YOU'RE A SEXIST!

YOU DESERVE TO BE IN JAIL LIKE ALL THE OTHER SEXIST MEN!

>>2437504
We have no proof.

>>2437535

The most painful thing for a woman is having a baby.
The most painful thing for a man is getting kicked in the testicles.

A while after you kicked a guy in the nuts you ask would he like to try it again. He'll strongly decline!

But a few years later a woman's asking "can we have another baby?" so obviously it's not that painful at all!

>>2437588
WOMEN ARE BETTER THAN MEN!

That's why they get to choose, that's why they get all these programs to help them out.

That's why women have more rights than men.

WOMEN DESERVE TO BE BETTER BECAUSE THEY ARE BETTER!

That's why women get so much more help than men. THEY'RE BETTER!

>>2437641

Get sucked into a jet's engine and die.

>>2437641
All you are better at is receiving is PENIS and RAPE.

>>2437729
IN THIS FORM I HAVE NO ORIFICE.

EVEN MY MOUTH IS FALSE.

EVEN MY EYES AND EARS!

HUR DURR
DURRRR

HURRR DUR HURRRR


HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DURR

KZZZZZZTTTTTtttt.t.......~*

>>2437794
So change into a more suitable form.

>>2437794

Why don't you just take a stroll into a blast furnace? You know, clean up the gene pool a bit.

Who gives a fuck about abortions, I'm still not getting any!

>>2438132
This man speaks the truth. He isn't getting any.

>>2438160
So you would still call me a man even if I never get any?

stop accidenting?

I'm a horrible person for this, put whatever
>>If you're against murder, then you have zero reason to support abortion.
I'm actually for murder, I believe sometimes people do things that make their life forfeit, though I don't believe its the government's duty to figure out what those things are. Abortion is the same thing. Nothing makes life sacred, everyone who exists will hurt others. Abortion changes the amount of people who will be hurt, though its not always predictable.

>>2438225
Sex isn't everything. I wouldn't think less of you just because you can't get any. That'd be silly.

>>2437535
Yes. Pregnant men can get abortions too. Not every girl wants to have ugly stretch marks.

Would I look like this after being pregnant? I think not.

>>2438300
Maybe you won't think any less of me because you've already ranked me at the bottom, you lying communist faggot.

those who are against aborion are hypocrites

>>2429234
Tell me, if a fetus is living, why isn't it counted in the census? Why do people say "We have 2 children and one on the way" instead of "we have 3 children"? Why is there no funeral after a miscarriage?
Not all women who get pregnant are sluts. What if a woman was raped? Are you saying that if a woman was raped, it's not bad enough that she's traumatized for life, but that she now has to live with her unwanted pregnancy?

The problem with pro-life idiots is that they think that making abortion illegal will make it stop happening. Do you fucks seriously think Roe v. Wade invented abortion or something??

pro-life conservatives have no right to visit a website made by GIGANTIC FLAMING HOMOSEXUAL

>>2438432
ohoho, that is most touche, good sir.

How about the kid that is born no one gives a fuck about and would of been better to not of been born at all.

>>2430627
Wait that makes no sense. Democrats were in senate control when we went to war in first place. So they wanted to go just as much as republicans. typical republican logic.

Wow, virgins actually think that they can be in a woman's head and decide that abortions are wrong.


Sorry to deceive you but... you're not women.
You don't know what being pregnant is like.
You don't know what kind of a pain it is to have children in a consuming society where adults can't have enough of this and that.

Is it just me or republicans are always fucking whining? BAW ABORTION BAW religion so since people wont listen to me I will spread propaganda like obama wasn't born in usa to start shitstorms.

What bothers is me is people vote for this single issue alone. Evangelical Christians supporting republicans already make me hate the shitty party.

We love abortions because we hate babies.

Shine, penis, people pretending to be shine, people claiming they'll draw a picture of shine getting raped. I had such high hopes for seeing shine boobs in this thread before I went to the pub earlier and now, upon my return, all I can see is some faggotry about abortions and shit.

I am so fucking disillusioned with you all right now, especially shine. I wanted to come home drunk and be able to fap over a pic of shine being raped or at least with her massive paps out, but no. You've all failed and ruined my evening. I hope you can live with yourselves.

>>2429234
Why do conservafags love war and the death penalty but are against abortion and euthanasia? "It is only right to kill a human being if it can feel the pain."

Personally, though, I am for both pre-natal and post-natal abortion.

Abortions have been labeled as relatively small compared to back when it was banned.

http://www.babylune.com/expensive-process-pregnancy-and-birth/

The average cost of delivering a child is $7600.

This is a picture that I have no text to accompany.

>>2439721

It happened, just not in this thread.

>>2441755
>>2441660
>>2441687

sootsocks

I wonder why people choose partial-birth abortion. I mean, you have all this time before a glop of cells develops into a shape with a brain and circulatory system.

As a liberal leaning person who hangs out with a lot of liberals, I can tell you that many liberals find abortion morally objectionable, But most of them don't think that it's right for the government to pass legislation on something based on whether they alone think it's moral. There are a lot of levels to it, just as there are to capitol punishment, which for some reason, liberals are against and conservatives are for, even though the first rule in pretty much every religion is "thou shalt not kill". It's not "Thou shalt only kill someone who killed someone else" it's just plain old don't kill anybody.
But conservatives are for it because they believe that our world will be a better place for everyone if these people aren't in it. The same way that sometimes it's better for everyone involved if there isn't a child.
And anyway, they don't do abortions after the third trimester. That's just right-wing bullcrap to get you riled up. If conservatives had it their way, there would be no abortions ever. The next step is trying to make it illegal to sell birth control to kids. What would happen then is that more people would need abortions. Kids have sex anyway, aren't able to afford to have children, and either get an illegal abortion, (which could result in one of three options, the two likely ones being jailtime or death) or have the kid and live in the streets and starve to death.

Abortion should be legal for the same reasons that Capitol Punishment, Prostitution and Mind Altering Substances should be legal. 1st of all, government regulation makes it safer and preserves life, 2nd, it keeps people who are not harming society in any way out of prison, which in turn, frees up tax dollars that can be spent on more productive things.

>>2429321
That's actually a very good point. It should only be single homicide.

>>2430690 Yeah, ok, don't care about the kid at all, just put it in a shitty system where it will never get to know it's true mother and father.
Okay, that's just moronic.