>>2143949

3) "you can't impose your morality on others."

using that logic, should we release all the rapists and murderers from prison to go free on the streets and allow them to do as they please, because we "cannot impose our morality on them?" of course not. if you saw someone beating a child bloody on a playground, would you not try to stop it? even if that's imposing your views on others?
we do not need to be given the right to speak up for the voiceless.


4) "you're all just a bunch of self-righteous jesus freaks."

not all pro-lifers are religious, but one doesn't have to be to have a sense of morality and know that killing a defenseless human being is wrong. simply because many pro-lifers are motivated by religious beliefs doesn't mean abortion a religious issue. (the civil rights movement was sometimes led by pastors and led in churches, but that doesn't mean civil rights is a religious issue). besides, if we start rejecting laws just because they are supported by religion, since that there is hardly anything illegal which is not also prohibited by Scripture, then we will have get rid of all of our laws.

5) "it has nothing to do with you. stay out of other people's privacy."

if everyone were to follow this idea, then we would not have any security in our nation at all. if everyone just "stayed out of people's privacy," children would be molested, women would be raped in their homes, and people would kill each other and no one could do anything to stop it. we would have no security, no police force, nothing. should we stay out of someone's privacy' when they film child pornography in their basement? should we stay out of a man's 'privacy' as he beats his wife in their bedroom? should we stay out of a woman's 'privacy' as she goes to have her child intentionally torn limb from limb?


6) "if it is illegal, then women will die in illegal abortions."

abortion advocates are flat-out lying when saying thousands of women died each year from illegal abortions and their own research proves it: in 1986, the AGI (allen guttmacher institute, the research arm of planned parenthood) gave proof that shows in the fifteen years before abortion was legal, the average number of women dying from illegal abortion in america was 136 per year and falling.
remember: pro-lifers don't perform abortions. if we made abortion illegal right now, and illegal abortionists came about in the next few days, each one of them would be pro-choice. think about it: any woman that ever died or was hurt during an abortion, legal or not, it was because of someone who was pro-choice.
basically, the abortion industry tells us, "if you make abortion illegal, women will end up dying because of it." but what in reality they're saying, "if you make it illegal for us to kill babies, then we'll start killing women."

1/10 I'll bite

abortions are not a big deal. Women who have abortions tend to exit the clinic thinking 'that was it, what is all the damn fuss about.'

Babies suck. We need less people. stfu troll.

Nobody cares faggot, go back to HEE-HAWISTAN

I'll bite too.

You failed to mention that when defined scientifically, the "baby" being killed IS NOT FUCKING ALIVE. It is dependent on the mother and is NOT a separate being. This is NOT murder.

Fuck it just doesn't go through your head.

>>2143949
If you people really don't like pro-abortionists then why in hell haven't you tried to economically block China? They've 'killed' 400 million babies according to your views but I don't see you doing shit about it.

7) "it's not a human because _______."

this is when people start making up their own definitions of what a human is in order to dehuminize the unborn. science undoubtely proves that at the moment of conception, a new human being is formed, with 46 human chromosomes and human DNA. at that moment, everything about that new human being is determined: gender, hair color, eye color, metabolism, whether they will be right-handed or left-handed, etc.
the definition of "human (noun)" and "human being" are interchangeable. wherever you look, you will see that when either is defined, the other is one of the definitions. in order to be a human being, biologically speaking, one must be a member of the genus homo sapiens, which the unborn are.

8a) "it's not a person."

according to the law, no. but if the law suddenly decided that those under age one are not considered persons, would you be morally comfortable killing them too?

sage. you are confusing the illegality of complete control of one's body (ingestion of drugs, prostituting oneself) with the morality of these acts.

get over yourself religious fag

Okay, what about this argument. Abortion lowers crime and is convenient. Also, the fetuses were destined to be aborted cause destiny is real, I believe. Also, they aren't fully human. It's like killing a severely retarded kid with half his skull missing. It's no big deal, cause they aren't really human, you know?

8b) "well, it's not a LEGAL person so they shouldn't have more rights than the woman."

we are not advocating that the unborn have more rights than the mother. we are advocating that their rights are equal. if america was killing off women by the millions so kids could live the way they wanted, the pro-life movement would fight just as much to end that mass slaughter as well.
everyone has the right to live how they want, but they can't kill others in order to do so. when we say someone can't shoot someone in order to get money to buy a house, it's not to say he has doesn't have a right to buy a house or that he has fewer rights his victim; we're saying that someon's right to life is of higher value than someone else's right to buy a house.
this idea also applies to abortion. the abortion industry's own data shows that at least 93% of abortions are done for non-health issue reasons on a totaly healthy baby and a totally healthy woman who just doesn't want to be pregnant or have a baby, which shows that the abortion conlfict is between the unborn's right to life and a woman's wanting to not to be pregnant, and even though that desire may be rational, she can't be allowed kill for it.
another 6% are performed due to deformalities or disabilities of the unborn baby, which makes over 98% of abortions done solely out of convenience.

The problem with a lot of these reasons is that they're muddling US Government law with strict Ethical law. You can't say "this is immoral because it's illegal" or vice versa.

OP you've failed to take into account the fact that you are a massive faggot and thus all your arguments are invalid.

in after troll having succeeded. Ignore him and he'll go away!!!

KLDSFJOSEIAJSKDAIUOEFHa

>>2144002

Arguments that end in "you know?" aren't real arguments.
you lose.

Both the left and right are wrong.

Abort an 8 month fetus? What the fuck is wrong with you you fucking prick.

Taking an after morning pill is murder? What the fucking shit?

Fuck you both. Seriously. Fuck you. To me christian fundamentalists are just as cooky and deluded as che guevera worshipping progressives and there is 0 chance of this perception ever changing.

If a fetus is younger than 20 weeks, suck it out. If it's older than 24 weeks it is a human with a functioning brain and can survive outside the womb, aborting it is murder. 20-24 weeks is the grey area, bring it before a court, notify the father.

You know the list of reasons why this is faulty logic is longer than the actual argument.
I suggest that when this happens, that you don't bother. It's plain to anyone that has more than one braincell knocking about that something is up.

9) "the fetuses are parasites and a woman doesn't have to be a fetal incubator if she doesn't want it."

parasites are something of a different species than the host. since both the woman and the unborn are members of the genus homo sapiens, they are both human beings, and therefore of the same species. also, during pregnancy, a woman's body goes through changes to deliberately provide nutrients and protect her baby. this does not happen with a parasite.
when a woman decides to engage in sexual activity, she risks pregnancy, even if she uses birth control. an innocent human being should not have to pay with his/her blood because someone's birth control failed. if one is ready for sexual activity, one must be ready to handle the consequences of their actions.
the pro-choice thought is that if people are "acting responsibly," they should not have any consequences. but even if people "act responsible" when driving their cars can still have accidents, and are still responsible for any damage they cause. in the case of engaging in sex, "acting responsibly" is more than using birth control to avoid pregnancy. it's also accepting (before having sex) that the woman may become pregnant, and abortion is about allowing people evade this part of responsibility at the expense of a child's life.

>>2143994
I'm gonna argue for #8. They really aren't people, so it's okay to kill them. Babies aren't people either, but it's usually not okay to kill a baby, cause the mother wants to keep the baby and it takes a long time to make another. A fetus is unwanted and it's easy to make another. If a psychologically sound woman wants to kill her baby, it's okay because it's unwanted and she accepts the consequences of having to make another if she chooses and all that.

But a lot of pro- abortionists might not agree with me and they would say the baby becomes sort of a person (or partially a person) after a few months. That's also a good argument.

i am pro abortion and it should be mandatory that only people with IQs above 110 be allowed to reproduce and all others should be forced to give up their child (abortion/adoption) or leave the country

No one is "Pro-Abortion." They're pro-choice.

Women have a right to choose.

It's a government decision. And more an issue of morality than of legality.
Thus Roe vs Wade should stay in effect.

Don't like it? Don't get one.

>>2144046
where in the definition does it say different species

>Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Oh, It doesn't.

my favorite part about this situation is that it doesn't really matter what the OP thinks because abortion is legal and that's really not going to change, therefore he is fucked

Mind if I point something out OP? The people who support abortion are the retards that get themselves into situations where they have an unplanned child and are too pathetic to take responsibility for their actions. If you're going to have sex, fucking use a condom, spermicide, and/or the pill. Seriously, it's just fucking stupid otherwise.

10a) "no one knows when life begins." 10)b "i don't think life begins until ________."

Again, this is another argument of definitions. Arguably, your stance is that all life is sacred, and therefore no life should be taken. However, consider a case of murder in self-defense. Was it wrong to kill? That would probably depends on who you ask (this is another widely debated issue). The thing is, that no matter which stance you take, 99% of the juries will let of the "murderer" without a punishment. And that is the key point here; morals and laws are not the same thing. Yea, it's terrible that a mother chose to kill a fetus/let a fetus die, but that was her decision. Morally speaking, the issue will warrant a variety of opinions. Legally speaking, that shouldn't be an issue.
The issue at hand is the effect the fetus/child will have on the mother. The 9 months she would most likely lose would definitely have an impact on her life and her choice on what to do with it. Arguing that her actions would technically kill an unborn life would be invalid since each dollar she spends on luxury items kills another child that is starving and poor. There are no laws claiming that is illegal to not donating to charity, even if it is morally wrong.

Awww... poor babies. We should trade their non-lives for the already-begun lives of their parents, who certainly can't afford to give the little fucks a good upbringing anyway.

Why r u poop retard?

Even with all that in mind, abortion still makes the world a better place. most of these people don't have the means to care for a child. hell even doing it for convieniences sake, for example: college bound undergrad top of her class gets knocked up and kills herself, right before discovering the cure to AIDS and MORALITY. COINCIDENCE?!

>>2143949
you dont have the choice for someone's responsibility/business now fuck off with your pro-life preachings

>>2144076
Yep abortion is legal in just about every developed country and OP should have been aborted too. Too bad its illegal in the 37th trimester.

>>2144042
That's about where I stand on it. I would try not to judge a woman for having an early-term abortion, but a late-term one without a really good reason would make me really reconsider someone's respect for life. I am quite against, say, the abortion of a baby I made (male here). Doesn't sit well with me at all, because it removes my chance to take responsbility for it and man up. That said, I really don't want any kids right now so I take steps to prevent it. If my girlfriend actually got pregnant she says she would have an abortion and I'd really have no choice in it. Therefore pill + condoms.

However, I would NOT favor making abortion illegal. After the point where the fetus is viable I would be ok with having a lot stricter standards on when it can be performed, but in general I think it would be better to leave that up to social forces and not the law. People having abortions at that stage aren't doing it casually. And if they are, it's such a douchebag thing to do that it's not like they'll get off scot-free in the eyes of their peers.

11) "the fetuses aren't sentient. they don't feel anything. they don't care."

This seems more of an argument for HOW they should be killed rather than not killing them. Simply because the methods for doing something are currently crude, doesn't imply that the whole act is immoral. Only the methods are. By this argument, a painless process would take away any moral stigma. Also, the argument relies heavily on the immorality of the act of killing without considering the whole picture. Yea, it's immoral to kill an unconscious or sleeping person, but that person doesn't really affect anyone while unconscious. They don't stand to change someone's life in ways they may not want it to change simply by existing.

12) "it's a legal right. it's about giving women a choice."

Let's just assume that the fetus is a person, and therefore has the right to life. However, assuming that, you must also realize the mother has a right to life herself. By claiming that the woman has no right to her own body, is claiming the life of the fetus is greater than the mom. It is not a case where bother mother and child have been thrown into house to live together. The mother owns the house. She has the right to evict any roommate she chooses, even if she was the one to invite them in.
Also, more arguments that argue the definition of words. Just because it is a choice does not imply that it is not significant.

>>2144086
NO. supporting abortions is supporting the advancement of the human race! they less retarded people reproducing the less retarded people in the world...why do you think the nations IQ is dropping? because the retarded teen moms keep popping out babies

pic is related

it should be like the game "horse", except with a W at the beginning and no S

For every abortion a woman gets, she gets a letter tattooed on her forehead

You're copypasting the responses now, OP.
Good game.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Seriously, I don't give a shit about your dumbass arguments. Abortion should be the default option when it comes to pregnancy. Most fetuses should not come to term. Fuck unwanted babies, fuck retarded babies, fuck babies in general. The only value a fetus has is given to it by its mother. Aside from what she wants, it is just a cluster of bullshit.

hypocrites, go eat your cow and chicken breakfast/dinner/lunch and stfu already with this bullshit.

you're not protecting a damn thing by denying others of rights, get a clue, you're not the world's savior, or bleeding heart...

It doesn't really matter whether it's human to me or not. I see it as a parasite sucking out my lifeblood, and if it ever pops out of me it will still be a parasite sucking away my time, money, and life.

I have no problem destroying a leech, even if it is my own species.

So I don't really care that every pro-life argument is based on morality, obviously I don't have comparable morals with you, and I'd like to be able to easily kill any mistake that happens from the 1% chance birth control fails me.

Call me henious, I just see humankind as horrible beings that deserve whatever apocalypse they bring on themselves, so why care about humans.

OP you clearly lack an understanding of evolution and the nature of life. You can't argue against abortion because there is no argument against scientific proof other than evidence that requires a theory to changed or discarded and that evidence has yet to have been presented. Just because you personally believe, through a limited perspective guided by the various memes that we have in present day, that for some reason a "life" with a very specific future is created just because it is united is incredibly skewed.

To further this sentiment you said >to refute this statement, i'll tell a story about a little boy who had surgery for spina bifida before he was even born. at the end of the surgery, the baby reached out of the uterus and grabbed the doctor's finger. my question is this... who grabbed the doctor's finger?
This shows an extremely large gap in your ability to think from a neutral perspective. If you found that "touching" then that shows your inability to think logically and the baby's survival techniques working just as they do. When a baby is first born it has absolutely no sense of time, no linear thought, no conscious, it is an animal much like a rat or a dog or any other animal that we for the most part know have no thought.

The brain stem (I believe it's the brain stem but correct me if I'm wrong) contains all of this information beforehand. The baby is programmed to try to make eye contact and make little "connections" like this to cause the mother and other humans nearby to gain an attachment to the baby and take care of it. The development of this ability makes a lot of sense in an ancient (and even modern) man.

tl;dr We can kill babies until they start to pick up language and form a cortex because frankly they can't possibly care or be at all aware of what is happening BUT just to be safe make the cut off line any time before they come out of the vagina. Their "potential" life is completely meaningless.

YOU FUCKING IDIOTS, THE ENTIRE ARGUMENT REVOLVES AROUND:
>Let's just assume that the fetus is a person
EVERY OTHER ARGUMENT IS PROVEN/REFUTED DEPENDING ON THE ACCEPTANCE/REJECTION OF THIS STATEMENT. DON'T EVEN BOTHER BRINGING UP ANYTHING ELSE, BECAUSE THIS IS THE ALL IT COMES DOWN TO

PERSONALLY, I'M STILL UNDECIDED, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARGUE IDIOTIC POINTS ARE WASTING TIME AND PISS ME THE FUCK OFF.

>>2144124
SHAME ON THEM, HAVING CHILDREN AND PRODUCING HUMANS! HOW VILE AND DISGUSTING! I SAY WE CREATE CAMPS AND SEND THESE INDIVIDUALS TO THEM WHERE WE CAN SYSTEMATICALLY EXTERMINATE THEM! THAT'LL SHOW THEM!

Okay op, I know you're a fucking troll, so I shouldn't even respond to you but jesus fucking christ.

Killing a little ball of fucking stem cells is not a crime.
It's not alive, it has no brain, no conscious, nothing.
If killing "potential" life was a crime, then I'm a fucking mass murderer for wasting all my semen into a fucking sock. And as for making a woman give birth to a child of rape, well, I want to stab you in the face for trolling me so hard, I really do.

Fuck nigga, OP you best be listening to this shit aight? Errbady knos dat babies cant do shit otha than SUCK DICK. Fuck whens da last time you seen a baby do sumthin like bring home da cash money or drive caddy? Nigga plz baby can't do any of dat shit so dat littul nigga aint human sucka. Kno what I'm sayin, dog?

>>2144162
A lot of animals are sentient. Chickens and cows have been proven to understand the concepts of their own mortality, and limited communication with one another along with the idea of society as skewed as it would be. Anti-abortionist like to use sentience as an argument.

Everyone that believes abortion is bad because humans are sentient are no longer allowed to eat meat because it has been proven that many animals that humans eat are in fact sentient beings.

>>2144203
This isn't true. There's absolutely no proof for this. The "mirror test" and knowing their own morality has absolutely nothing to do with their being sentient. Regardless, even if they were "sentient" that doesn't mean they have a concept of time. But if you actually do have some real test or evidence that has shown that they are in fact truly sentient then I am requesting a link and wish to read more.

>>2144203
Sentience is not the same as sapience. Also chickens are much more stupid than cows. Don't be silly.

A fetus has no consciousness, self awareness, or even the slightest thoughts. It's like killing a tumor

>>2144222
It was some Jews out for the nobel prize. Don't bother. It's got as much ground as videogames creating mass murderers.

oh wow. If you abort before the fetus becomes sentient, I see nothing wrong. Removing a clump of stem cells is not the equivalent to the murder of a person.

All pro-lifers should be socialist and pay taxes that would become a universal child support.

troll....1/10

women can make their own choice after they get raped.

/thread

OMG how could you say that!!?
A baby has every right to live, it's not his/her fault that its parents might be EVIL!!!1

So yes. Lets give parents unwanted babies so they raise a child on resentment for the next 18-20 years. I'm sure said child will grow into an upstanding productive member of society.

Chaining someone to a baby = Punishment. Shut up moralfag.

You can support abortion in the first trimester only, and not the later 2.

Ok so abortion is murder.

Now what's wrong with that?

>>2144257
I support this movement.

Pro-lifers aren't going to be taking care of those kids for the next 18 to 20 years so why should it concern them? Just like why should gay marriage concern heterosexuals?

Are you people afraid some pro-choicer is going to falcon punch you when you're preggers?

>>2144180
Hitler reference. This argument must now end.
/thread

>>2143949

The fatal flaw in your argument is assuming that the denizens of 4chan have any problem with murder in the first place.

Personally, I think abortion is a waste.

We should raise the children until they can walk, then tape knives to their hands, inject them with PCP, and make them fight to the death in arenas.

>>2144288
I'm cool with it being murdered.
If other people were lawfully allowed to be murdered, I'd kill them too. Humanity only deserves these things after all the shit it's done to everything and itself.

tl;dr I'm part of the problem

This thread is proof that the anti-abortion movement doesn't actually care about life. Notice noone is talking about the father of the fetus? Instead the anti-abortionists argue "WOMANS IS KILLIN BABIES". Admit you just want to see women suffer

how about this: for every baby you abort for no good reason (aka: you were raped, the baby / parent can be shown to have some significant undesirable hereditary trait(s), the mother's life / health / well-being is in danger if she has the child, &c.), you have to adopt a child.

God, I'm so sick of the "BABIES ARE LITTLE MIRACLES" attitude that EVERYONE seems to have.

Besides, studies show that countries where abortions are illegal, more abortions happen there. No matter your argument against abortion, illegalizing them will not stop them, and will only force women to have them in unsafe, unsterilized conditions.

Fuck pregnancy. It's disgusting.

>>2144324
What the fuck is wrong with you, nobody can afford kids, that's why they're aborting them.
You goddamn idiot, do you need an abortion yourself?

Abortions send babies to god faster.

Sentience motherfucker; do you grok it?

>>2144334
i don't mind if they cannot afford them.
they must learn to live with the responsibility or probably be arrested for negligence.

>>2144354
Great idea, then everybody can go to fucking jail.
That has worked REALLY well in the past for other things.

Fuck yeah I'll bite.

As men, we shouldn't even be allowed to form opinions on any of this because we can't bear children and don't have a god damned uterus.

That aside, what's really more cruel, killing a being before it's even aware of anything? Or letting that thing grow up in a horrible environment where it isn't cared for/has a poor quality of life/has to be abused or see abusive things? You're fucking sick if you'd put something through that kind of slow torture.

Abortion is mankind's single greatest invention.

I pray to Jesus every night in thanks, for providing us with this magical, wonderful gift.

>>2144332
you must be a woman, only then could you be so illogical.
your argument is fine except for the part with the studies about illegal abortions. somehow you imply a causal effect between making abortions illegal and the number of abortions.
this is why men decide important things.

>>2144369
lol, Jesus abortion.

He died for your sins, and he didn't even waste any time doing so.

>>2144385
Goddamnit, Athens, GTFO with your bullshit

>>2144234

>a child with a mental disability has no consciousness, self awareness, or even the slightest thoughts. It's like killing a tumor

>>2144361
well i also think criminals, if they are going to have freedoms taken away, should have their sentences reduced but also be forced to work in labor camps throughout their sentence and be highly productive.

>>2144332

I don't think it was that there were more abortions, just that the number didn't go down after it was made illegal but the maternal death rate went up. So overall it was worse when it was illegal.

i don't think too many people except for retards would classify a fetus in the first trimester as meeting the criteria to be defined as a living organism at all, but i think it is more the killing of a probable human life that people disagree with, amirite?

>>2144397
Might as well. Their retardaton is only fucking up the gene pool if they reproduce.

you're not a very good troll. if you're serious, you're not as smart as most people on /r9k/, which is pitiful.

1/10 obvious troll is obvious

using examples that are completely different than abortion isn't a good way to prove your point

>>2144332

you are incorrect.

>>2144368

so if I were to study your living circumstances and conclude that your life was substandard, to the point that it would be more beneficial for you to not be alive, it would be morally permissible for me to kill you in your sleep? I mean, if you aren't aware that your life's ending, it can't be that bad.

>>2144397
It's been proven fetuses experience and feel nothing until the third trimester
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

One cannot harm that which does not have a consciousness. One cannot harm that which that which cannot yet experience harm. Yes, a fetus is alive, but does not yet possess a consciousness. Harming a fetus is no worse than harming a tree. How can one harm an awareness that never exited?

Since there is no harm caused by abortion by this definition, abortion is not wrong.

>>2144445
>>you are incorrect.

Wow, that's a fantastically well thought-out and researched argument, where did you get that Internet Degree?

>>2144445
Chances if this is the case he'd want to commit suicide but wouldn't have the balls to do it. Thus, yes. You're helping.

Why abortion is okay. Can the baby survive without the mother? No? Then the baby is dependent on the mother's body( and the mother's body's EXISTENCE) to survive, and the mother can do whatever she damn well pleases with that baby and her body.

What's that you say? Some babies can survive outside the mothers body? Well, yes. You're right. They can. Interestingly enough, when the baby is developed enough to survive outside of the mothers body independently, the baby is also TOO DEVELOPED TO BE ABORTED.

You lose, OP. GTFO moralfag Jesusfreak.

>>2144397
i have no problem with killing a person with such a mental disability.
our goal as a society should be to minimize the cumulative long-term suffering and maximize the happiness of everyone possible.

>>2144456
Don't post that argument. Athens won't respond to logical posts if it completely refutes him

>>2144475
Killing people with mental disablities doesn't get rid of mental disablities.
learn2genetics

>>2144461

i did as much research as the guy i was replying to. i know he was pulling stats out of his ass; why should i bother? the statement that he made is not true. in the US, there have been more abortions since roe v wade.

ITT: fagots

me and my girlfriend aborted our baby just so we wouldn't have to deal with it. Didn't phase either of us.

>>2144304
nonono, we should sell the little girls off as sex slaves and only have the boys fight to the death.

Then we abandon/murder a girl when she fails to please us and then buy another one.

>>2144456

thus, killing people in their sleep is fine.

>>2144485
It gets rid of the mental disabilities of the people you've killed.

>>2144485
He didn't claim that it did. He said that we should try to minimize suffering and maximize happiness.
Kill tards==tards no longer suffer, and neither does society for having to deal with the burden of supporting tards.

>>2144485
1.) if it can be hereditary, yes.
2.) i essentially responded to this post: in case you diddn't read it, it talks about a person with "no consciousness, self awareness, or even the slightest thoughts", he'll probably just be a leach off of society and killing him will make no difference to him. i also am a proponent for assisted suicide.

>>2144514

But you've also implied that you're a proponent of killing the mental disabled, not assisted suicide, as they don't consent to it.

>>2144522
yeah, that's fine with me too.

>>2144514
Fuck yeah assisted suicide.
If I ever make it to old age I wanna die however the fuck I want instead of waiting for disease X to destroy me.

>>2143994
>genus Homo sapiens
Your entire argument is now void. Learn the difference between genus and species. Fuck off, self-righteous christfag.

>>2144509
How do you know people with the gene don't still exist. Many diseases are recessive or remain unexpressed. Killing tards doesn't get rid of genes. So yes society has to dela with tards

Hey guis, what if, like, the baby wasn't conscious in the mommy's womb. Is this possible?

>>2144522
In the example given by our moralfag OP in >>2144397, the Mental disabled would be so disabled so as to have little to no consciousness to speak of. No consciousness, no ability to consent, therefore consent is a moot point, since they can't consent to ANYTHING.

>>2144541
We can just wait until human genetics is completely mapped and then eradicate the impurities from the human race.
Yep, fascism.

>>2144527

Okay then I'll give you this: in a society in which murder is legal under the condition that the murderer deems it just, abortion should be legal too.

OP has to be trolling or has a sadly retarded opinion from growing up in a fucked up country, USA.

>>2144541
If I had a child whom was found diagnosed in advance with some rare degenerative disease, I would certainly abort as mercy for the child.

>>2144514
by that approach eventually everyone dies

>>2144547
just because you said the word fascism in the same post doesn't make it a bad idea.

>>2144046
Hey asshole:

parasite (noun)- an organism living in, with, or on another organism in parasitism

It doesn't say anywhere in there that they have to be of different species. You're the one that's twisting definitions in your favor you damn scumbag. Go back to church.

Overpopulation is a problem with two solutions: more people die or fewer born. Pick one.

>>2144546

so that fact leads to the default response that it's fine to kill them? lol.

>>2144542
Organized cortical brain activity begins somewhere in the middle of the second trimester. That's the criterion the more sophisticated pro-choicers argue about.

>>2144561
No no no, you got me wrong. I am all for it. I am conceding that yes, I am at heart fascist and I recognize this. Most people DO find this wrong, though.

>>2144560
i don't know what it has to do with my 'approach', but i agree whole heartedly, the evidence seems undeniable that everyone does indeed die.

>>2144557
There's a difference from killing people to get rid of genes and killing people out of sympathy. I believe killing someone because they will suffer a horrible life is fine. But to kill someone to make a "better" future because that person has "bad" genes is not good thinking

>>2143949
Fuck you with your opinion and that fucking dick fucking picture. Don't idolize life if you know nothing about it. Whore.

>>2144582
In his case it would be out of sympathy, just a premediated sort. Why wait until someone is already suffering if you're sure they will? Is that not more cruel?

I personally believe that OP should be forced to undergo an extremely violent, traumatising life experience, i.e. watching his mom die as a result of a drunk driver hitting her. The shock to his system would make him rethink things.

>>2144586

your argument is getting too far removed from reality. it can basically be boiled down to BAAAWWWWW WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST DIE SO THERE WILL BE NO MORE SUFFERING

because life is better than no life.

Very bad argument is very bad... What the fuck kind of logic does the OP use? Stay out of my body, nigger, I don't want kids. Until you find a birth control method that is 1000000% fucking proven to work I want a back up plan.

Also, OP is probably a man GTFO bad troll FUCK!

>>2144591

wait how does that relate to anything?

Abortion will always be a choice.

Successful troll is successful.

/thread

>>2144591
Not OP, but ironically (to what you're suggesting, I guess), a traumatic life experience helped get me involved in pro-life apologetics.

And shame on you for wishing bad things to happen to a stranger.

>>2144605

People usually have some kind of introspective soul-searching shit they go through whenever something hellaciously traumatic happens in their lives. Watching a very close loved one die right in front of him while he is helpless to do anything about it just might do the trick.

>>2144600

If you don't want babies, abstain from sex you trashy cunt.

As an aside, today's birth control is damn effective. a minute percentage of abortions are due to failed birth control.

biting, if only to se if anyone can fault this:

you cannot impose your morals on pro-abortionists. your thing about rapists, murderers is ad hominem. they murder and rape people, and make life shittier for other sentient beings. it's not just morality, it's common sense

also, people have a hard time determining what is human because there's not a definite borderline. we're all just bags of chemicals. why is snuffing out a completely non-sentient one, for the benifit of one or more sentients, so bad?

because you want to think you're better than a bag of chemicals, that's why.

HUMANS: ARROGANT PRICKS TILL THE BITTER END

>>2144610
Just like murder will always be a choice when your girlfriend cheats on your loser ass.

The fact that it will always be a choice doesn't make it right.

>>2144622

And such circumstances usually lead to reversals in opinions on abortion? You're probably wrong but...alright you sort of made me rage 6/10.

1.) Why shouldn't someone have the right to ingest drugs if they want and sell their body if they want? Why shouldn't someone be allowed to die if they want? I think women should have the freedom not to go through pregnancy and childbirth if they dont want to.

2.) Forcing a women to keep a child fathered by a rapist is wrong. You forget that subjecting a women to raising the child would be more inhumane to her than terminating the pregnancy.

3.) You can't and you have to accept that it's part of living in a functioning society.

4-5 are irrelevant arguments.

6.) Your statistics are valid but irrelevant because you have confused the argument. The whole point is that women are going to have abortions regardless of the legality, so we should help them do it humanly and with proper medical attention.

Look: If the baby isn't able to survive on its own outside the womb it isn't a human being yet. Up until that point the mother should still have the option of changing her mind if she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy.

We have too many people in this world as it is. Why would you want more unwanted kids for society to look after. Also, abortion is statistically linked to a lower crime rate (read freakonomics if you dont believe this)..

>>2144625
but why is it then wrong to kill something which has no mind so you don't have a baby?

Morality is relative. Why should anyone give a fuck if I shoot someone in the head until they die?

>>2144656

Because it's a human being.

Why is it wrong to kill anyone or anything? Because your damn bibles say it is? Hah, bullshit. I choose not to kill because of the repercussions and because I have no reason to, not because it's "morally wrong."

>>2144670
This pretty much contains everything I believe as well.

>>2144625
No, fuck you asshole, I won't abstain from sex just because you and the angry sky king think it's dirty, it feels good and I like doing it. The small percentage of birth control failure would be relevant if we made abortion illegal like you want to do you dumb cock sucker.

Leaving this thread before I burn my bra.

>>2144632

>you cannot impose your morals on pro-spouse-abusers

or

>you cannot impose your morals on pro-slave-owners

You're assuming that abortion isn't morally wrong. But that's exactly what you're trying to prove.

>>2144670

By this rationale, you would cease to do anything that has such repercussions. Thus if abortion was against the law you'd be fine with that too and simply not get abortions, whereas otherwise you would? Yeah nice argument there dipshit.

Anyone else kill bugs that get in their house and throw them away?

>>2144683
Have some respect for yourself.

>>2144670
So you'd choose not to abort if there were repercussions? Or, you'd be OK with murder if there were no prison time involved?

this is a biased opinion:

yeah, in 7th grade a good friend of mine was raped and turned out she was impregnated by the little prick. nonetheless, she got an abortion.

but you're right, a 7th grader should be forced to raise a rape baby, and abortion is worse than rape.

you're a moron; this is a country where people have the right to choose what she would want to do. if you think abortion is wrong, then don't get it. and until then, don't go on the murder witch hunt at abortion clinics.

>>2144699
No, I generally try to let them go outside.
But the goddamn cockroaches bite you... it's fucking self-defense on those mofos

>>2144716
The latter, murder is fine for me if prison time is not involved.

>>2144683

firstly, the sky king has nothing to do with this.

secondly,
>The small percentage of birth control failure would be relevant if we made abortion illegal like you want to do

So birth control would fail more if abortion was illegal? I know that's not what you mean but I cannot tell what you do mean.

>>2144717
You're assuming that abortion is a choice, rather than a moral wrong, when you recite your Planned Parenthood bumper sticker line, "Don't like abortion? Don't have one."

And that's exactly what you're arguing for. You're assuming your conclusion, and that's not logically valid.

>Don't like wife abuse? Don't beat your wife.

>>2144716
I do respect myself, I respect the fact that I'm human and we are mammals, I respect that we are sexual beings, I respect that sex feels good, I like things that feel good, I respect the fact that you hold these ancient beliefs of morality in an age of information because you're a flaming faggot now please DIAF.

>>2143949
If abortion were illegal, women who did not want their children would find other, much more dangerous and unsanitary methods to abort their child NO MATTER WHAT THE FUCK YOU BELIEVE OR HOW RIGHT IT IS. They would still keep doing it, as has been done since the dawn of time and shamanistic medicine.

The question isn't pro-choice or pro-life. The question is, what is better: a coat hanger, or a clean medical facility? That is the only question you need to answer. I don't give a fuck about your 'beliefs' and neither does the rest of the world, understand?

>>2144739

Then you have no place in a discussion on the legality of anything. You should have just told us you didn't think anything at all should be illegal in the first place.

>it's silly to think that the law cannot tell us what we can't do with our bodies

Clever use of double-negatives. What it really means is "the law CAN tell us what we CAN do with our bodies." "The law can tell us" is true, because that's what a law is, a command. "What we can do with our bodies," can be true or false, it does not falsify the first half of the statement. The false version of this part of the statement would be "what we cannot do with our bodies." This does not make the entire claim false. Thus, "the law can tell us what we can or cannot do with our bodies." is a true statement. Now, you said this is silly, which means you refute the statement. You, sir, are an idiot.

>we can't put certain drugs in them or sell ourselves for sex.

You cannot put a drug in your body? You cannot sell your body? Do you understand the difference between choice and limits?

'The question is, what is better: a coat hanger, or a clean medical facility?'

sick to my stomach now, thanks.

>>2144770
Then you should respect the fact that pregnancy and sex are not separable entities.

You're avoiding the true heart of the issue. The unborn are life-deserving members of the human community, and no matter how much you like spreading your legs, you can't change that fact.

>>2144742
They mean that right now it's irrelevant how many babies happen despite birth control, because abortion is legal, so that's option 2 if the pill or the condom or what-have-you fails.

If abortion is made illegal, then the few that WOULD have been aborted through option 2 would now technically have to be taken to term.

Some people equate this to "you're playing the baby lottery and you just won even though your chance was very small, suck it up, you knew the repercussions" others think "they were being responsible by using birth control, it's not their fault"

She no doubt falls into the latter opinion.

>>2144770

Oh wow. The morality of sex has nothing to do with this, and it just proves that you're a libtard sheep for bringing it up to begin with.

The only way that sexual intercourse relates to this is that IT IS THE PRIMARY WAY IN WHICH PREGNANCY IS CAUSED, YOU CANNOT COMPLETELY SEPARATE THE TWO GOD DAMN. Abstaining from sex is a 100% effective way to prevent pregnancy. I'm not persecuting people who choose to have sex with that statement. However, if you do make that choice, you should be accountable by using one or more of the very effective methods of birth control on the market or dealing with the consequences without killing your child.

>>2144767

Abortion is a choice, and the only moral wrong should be held in the eyes by those who have the abortion.

and even if you don't like domestic violence, just because you abstain from beating the shit out of your wife/family doesnt stop other dumbasses from doing it.

just because you decide to follow through with pregnancy (whether it is planned or unplanned) doesn't stop other women from deciding for themselves what to do with their body and their future.

>>2144691
i'm saying that, taking morality completely out of the picture, rape, murder, spouse abuse, what have you, make the lives of sentient humans shittier. ending one non-sentient life doesn't impact anyone

am i the only one that thinks drugs and prostitution should be legal?

I can kill myself self slowly with meth if i damn well please, and if two people have sex and then one gives the other money, is that so bad?

>>2144817
It's funny you assume I'm some bleeding heart liberal... I hate those crazy fucks.
>>2144809
No, they are not deserving members of society. They aren't alive, shithead.
>>2144815
Correct, that was what I was implying with the word "relevant" the poster you quoted unfortunately doesn't have a brain. You do.

>>2144817
This is ridiculous. ABSTINENCE? We aren't fucking monks. We have the technology to prevent most unwanted pregnancies. Better yet, when those fail, or somebody accidentally fails to use them, we have the technology to abort the fucker before it destroys both the mother's (typically not the father's) life and it's own.

>>2144831

the fact that you can't stop people from doing bad things is not a strong case for the legality of said things. your argument is not valid.

So, OP, what makes it morally wrong to kill a person?

In my opinion it is because other people will be sad or because that person values his own life. In the case of a fetus, no one will really miss it and it has the brain of a fucking goldfish. So I really don't see the problem of getting rid of such mistake. Besides, unplanned babies are most likely to ruin the mother's and sometimes the fathers life if they are unwanted too.

Lastly, there are way too many fucking people in this planet! Overpopulation is the main cause of most of our problems. Why the fuck would you want more babies around?

You people are all trying to convince each other that your own personal beliefs on whether or not you would ever consider the option of abortion should be imposed on everyone

>>2144777

Answer this question.

>>2144817
>However, if you do make that choice, you should be accountable by using one or more of the very effective methods of birth control on the market or dealing with the consequences without killing your child.

One of her arguments was "what about that miniscule failure rate in birth control, what then?" I would be interested in you answering that since evidently you find her responsible for using birth control, and she was attempting not to have a baby. What if the baby happens anyway and abortion is illegal? What would you do then, if you thought she was being accountable for her actions with the birth control?

>>2144846

but hardly anyone gets abortions because of failed birth control. surely the number of people getting such abortions would not increase if abortion was made illegal. and if so, i don't know what would cause such a change.

>>2144858
she is accountable for her actions means if she does choose to trust birth control over abstinence, she should be willing to accept the possible consequences without killing off a human life while it is being formed

>>2144838
Except for the one whose life was just ended. "Sentience" (whatever you take that to mean) is a trait gained over a person's development, just like the ability to speak or walk. Why is sentience the boundary? And you better come up with a concrete definition of sentience.

>>2144831
So, there are some things that are choices, like what kind of ice cream you enjoy the most, or the car brand loyalty you have. Those things are morally neutral. But ending a human life can never be morally neutral. You can never treat abortion as a preference because ending a human life is such a grave issue. Furthermore, the moral stature of things like murder, slavery, abortion, etc. is universal. There is no, "It's not OK for me, but it's OK for someone else."

If anti abortionists were also pacifists I would have some sympathy with their views. Unfortunately the same people who seek to protect a foetus are usually the first to cheer when our wonderful country attacks others with no good reason. One million dead in Iraq already- how many anti-choice types get upset about this?

They don't truely care about life. It's all about a twisted ideology where, pleasure is bad and the harsh choice is always the right choice


In their world-

Sex is evil,
Might is right,
Christians are good, everybody else is bad,
Helping each other is socialism and anti christian.
Beating children is good because it instills fear(one of the few emotions that they respond to)
Scaring children with stories of hell is good for the same reason.
Abortion is bad because some guy trained at the Mountain Ridge Evangelical centre for Fuck Ups happens to agree with the Pope.
Lives ruined by unwanted children are unimportant.


The list could go on but you get the drift. In short, most anti-choice types are sadists who want women to suffer for enjoying sex.

>>2144886
The point isn't that they would increase at all, it's that "reponsible" people would be forced to have a baby anyway. This only applies if you are of the mindset "responsible people who use birth control do not deserve to live with a baby if it accidentally happens anyway" Please read the post she was referencing to get the point of her relevancy statement.

Abortion is a necessary evil. It keeps unfit parents from having children that would otherwise destroy society.

You can't deny that. Everyone knows one person who is unfit to be a parent.

>>2144886
Soup dood, I'm the chick who's been raging. I have a steady boyfriend, we fuck, I take the pill, he doesn't pull out. If the pill doesn't work that 1% of the time and abortion is legal, I'd have an abortion. I don't fuck without taking care to know the consequences. We both make less than 40,000 USD per year, we both live in apartments, we don't want kids, we don't want a marriage or white picket fence, we just want to get through life having as much fun as possible.

>>2144893
Wait, wait, wait... so you fucking support abstinence?

Abortion is around for when birth control fails. Even the most stupid of people are smart enough to consider what sex without some form of control might end in.

As for the legality, it's legal right now. The only way to change this is to sue somebody for something abortion-related and escalate it to the national level. Also, you have to be a woman to even have standing in this.

In fact, I'll expound that some more. If you're a guy, STOP POSTING. You can do nothing in our legal system; go busy yourself with other big issues, like drug legalization (or prison depopulation), current military actions, or what-have-you.

>>2144858

contraceptives are very effective. using multiple methods of birth control makes the odds of conceiving a child astronomical. however if you should conceive such a child, you should not kill it.

>>2144929
we all want to have a good life but it need not come at the cost of killing a life whilst it is in development.

>>2144777
The answer to this question is, no, the abortion rate would in fact decrease if Planned Parenthood were forced to shut down.

Yeah, sure, an abortion black market would arise, but it wouldn't see nearly the same volume as PP does.

And yeah, the risk of death is something you assume when you break the law like that.

>>2144958
Well at least you're honest about what you think.

>>2144955
fuck you, this thread isn't going to be used to pursue some litigious action, we are just here to debate and consider the logical implications of decisions and our being male/female has little influence on this so long as we can remain unbiased.

>>2144925
Slavery is a necessary evil. It keeps unfit slaveowners from freeing negroes that would otherwise destroy society.

>>2144958
You have obviously never experienced the joy of killing an innocent child with an abortion.

lol, bringing unwanted children into the world.

FAIL

>>2144929

what you find pleasurable doesn't really have a place in this argument. i'm sure charles manson liked having fun too, but, well, you know.

>>2144955
>If you're a guy, STOP POSTING. You can do nothing in our legal system

You know, except decide Roe v. Wade.

>>2144932
what do you mean 'support' abstinence?
if a girl does not want to risk having a child, it is obviously the most effective (albeit not by much) method of guarentueeing this. and if a girl does indeed choose to use some method of contraception instead, well nobody is going to stop her.
but she is responsible for the direct implications of the choices she makes, as it is probably right to reward responsibility over ending a human life in development.

>>2144959
Well, since life is always growing and changing I must say that it's always in development. In my daily life I kill a lot of stuff. I kill bacteria every time I brush my teeth. I eat dead animals and dead plants. I kill the mosquitoes that annoy me. And in general, just by living I'm consuming planet resources and taking the spot of someone else. Just by living one other dude somewhere doesn't have my standard of living.

Does that mean my life is worthless?

>>2144991
The difference here is that slaveowners aren't saddled with the responsibility of teaching the slaves basic concepts as right or wrong.

Wait I just had an epiphany. Say abortion is made illegal - say all these parents who aren't qualified to be such have their babies - say these parents don't raise the child well because they are simply bad - they may fail to teach their children proper morals or even religious behaviour.

Thus allowing the retards to have children may well end in the moral thoughts that go into abortion until it simply becomes legal again. Of course society might already be fucked but whatever, cyclic is cyclic?

I think I'm going crazy, how about I go to bed before I think any more completely false and illogical shit up, what the hell. That can't make sense. Durhurr idiotic false epiphanies because it's 5:45 am goddamn.

Successful troll has proven successful.

>>2145024
if you did not eat and live then your life would end too, and clearly this is also a problem.
let me add we should prevent the loss of life when it is reasonable.

>>2144961
So I take it you think the coat hanger is better than the clinic.

>>2144958
>>2144959
See this is where the problem is, you guys see it as another life.. I see it (when it's legal to abort) as a lump of tissue, because that's what it is... Nothing really but a bunch of blood cells. I'm not a cold person, in fact I'm not even an atheist.. I just feel that it's irresponsible to not let people choose what's best for them.

Yes there are fucktards out there who don't use contraceptives, I myself only use 1 form, not two because I like that my boyfriend can feel his cock being squeezed but whatever. When you take a hatchet, make all abortions illegal and say FUCK IT WE'LL DO IT LIVE! that messes with those of us who are already doing the responsible thing. If you pro-lifers want to make a difference go stand outside PP and hand out condoms or information on how to obtain other contraceptives.

>>2145023
I mean, encourage abstinence as a method of birth control.

Also, it's not just the girl's responsibility.

Solution #1:

Abortion is legal, but the limit is upped to the 75th trimester. If I own my own genetic material, then I should be able to decide up to half of what I want to do with my child. So effectively, the caretaker(s) of the child must come to a consensus for abortion.

Child didn't turn outright? Time to abort that mission. Kid's spray paint all over the school and you're stuck with the fines? I'll just pull out Ol' Reliable here and do the deed. Oh shit, what am I going to do about Billy selling drugs? Do I have to spell it out for you?

Solution #2:

Abortion is illegal, with exception to rape. But where there's a will, there's a Mexico.

Solution #3:

Do it the Spartan way. If they can't survive, they didn't need to exist. But at least give them a fighting chance rather than killing them where they couldn't possibly defend themselves.

>>2144955

Christian types resist good explicit sex education for teenagers, resist making contraception easily available for teenagers
then wonder about unwanted pregnancies. lol

>>2145043
How do you mean "better"?

>>2145044
See, this is where the problem is. You don't know jack shit about human development.

>>2145046

it is the best method of birth control. however, i encourage the use of contraceptives if a couple chooses to have sex. i am also against killing fetuses.

the fact that someone acknowledges abstinence as an effective way to prevent pregnancy doesn't make said person some kind of religious nut, which is what i think you think.

>>2145042
And if this hypothetical baby is born my life will be miserable. Shit, it's not even a baby, it's a clump of cells. It's almost as much as a baby as the dry semen I left on a tissue today.

>>2145044
in that case, you are a bunch of tissue and cells to, albeit a bit more complexly organized.
Whether or not it is conscious makes no difference, it will most assuredly develop conscientiousness soon enough, and when it is completely reasonably within our power to stop the loss of a potential human life too.
thanks for pointing out how cold hearted all us atheists are, dumb bitch.
>I just feel that it's irresponsible to not let people choose w.hat's best for them.
I disagree.

>>2144979
Before I argue back, why the 'fuck you'? @_@

Our laws define our morals. You can't talk about one without the other. Morals are all over the board due to all sorts of zany early-life abuse. We write laws to standardize this in the hopes that even the most religious-fucked among us can live a "standard" moral life (and then there are those that disregard this, but at least they were given the option).

To the "Sex for enjoyment is wrong and kids from it are just desserts" crowd, there really is nothing to say. Go have sex. If you don't, you're damaging and depriving yourself in so many ways that it should be seen as self-abuse. Talk about an argument without standing -- virgins arguing against abortion is a lollercoaster in action.

>>2145053
LOL, HOE DOES I MAKE CHOOCE? DERP!!!

>>2145080
Fine you want to get into semantics? It's legal to abort after the baby forms into something recognizable, but most take place well before then.

>>2145099
our laws are there hold society together, that's pretty much it. Maybe morals have some effect on how they function, but one can hardly say the largest factor in the creation of many of the laws we have is because our morals dictated them to us directly. Typically there is some perceived need of society (such as water rationing, for example), and law/law enforcement is created to meet it. The reason we want society to function is not largely based on morals either. As societal creatures we have a much easier time living when our communities works.
morals have developed through evolution and are innate human thought processes. Genes that caused individuals to tend to engage in altruistic behavior relatively more often led to higher rates of acceptance into tribes of those individuals, helping to guarantee their, and ultimately their offspring's, survival better. This tendency, given enough generations, led to higher proliferation of said sets of genes and thus we tend to have altruistic urges every now and then.

>>2145099

you're a fucking idiot. see slavery.

also
>To the "Sex for enjoyment is wrong and kids from it are just desserts" crowd, there really is nothing to say. Go have sex. If you don't, you're damaging and depriving yourself in so many ways that it should be seen as self-abuse. Talk about an argument without standing -- virgins arguing against abortion is a lollercoaster in action.
no one has said anything remotely resembling that. it's not that pregnancies are some kind of bad karma from having sex, but you should fucking be educated enough to know that when you have unprotected sex, there's a chance that a little human could start developing inside of you or your partner.

There are too many people in this world. The world needs less babies and more abortions. Seriously, abortions should be free and paid by the government so more people have them. Well, so should be birth control.

wow, these trolls have really gotten sharp as tacks/
this is quite amazing if i do say so myself.
they have learned to mimic human thought almost exactly, and seem to be working together, and reproducing at an alarming rate.
something must be done.

OP, you still here? I want to respond, but it'll take a bit, as you've actually put forth cogent arguments.

>>2145179
darwinism of any sort only works when there is so much competition between individuals that resources are insufficient to meet demand so some die off levaving the more capable of reproduction (aka the beautiful / successful) to produce viable offspring.
This is why i am a big supporter of polygamy but not polandry.

Some interesting arguements.

Unfortunately that is merely your opinion and they are largely based on the assuption of a fetus being a living sentient human. Which is debatable.

They are mostly some good arguements however i take issue with 2.

The mother will be raising a child thats father is a rapist. The child will have no father andif he knows then it will be very stressful. The mother will look at the child and think this things dad was the prick who raped me.

So you think that:
The child should live despite the social and psychological issues it will undoubtably face.
The child shoud live despite the fact that the mother will always be reminded of that traumatic experience whenever she looks at her OWN CHILD.

Even if an abortion doesn't get rid of the trauma from rape she will have a much harder time getting over it when she has his child inside her and later to raise.

The psychological stress from that could cause her to fucking lose it. She could severly hurt herself, kill herself or even break to the point of stick a knife up her cunt in the worst possible scenario.

Im pro-choice but you make some interesting points. But 2) is so fucking rediculous. If she concieved from rape she should get a fucking abortion. Why fuck her life and her childs even more after the trauma from rape? Seriously that point made me rage so fucking hard.

>>2145164
And there's a chance too WITH birth control. A friend of mine was on the pill and her boyfriend still got her preggers. Luckily she's not retarded and decided to abort the twins. Right now she's broke, she moved back with her parents (abusive step-dad included) until she's done paying some loans and her boyfriend dumped her. Could you imagine how much fucking worse her life would be with twins? She's 22 for fuck's sake. She was responsible and still got pregnant. No one should have children when they're not ready, especially not at fucking 21.

tl;dr because of your backward thinking and your shitty morals other people get fucked.

>>2145207
i am probably the least moral person on earth, morals have nothing to do with my arguement.
we need to encourage responsibility and discourage irresponsibility (aka if you take the risk of having sex you must accept any possible consequences. it is on you, nobody else.)

>1) "a woman has the right to her own body."
We all have a right to our bodies. Rights against being searched without a warrant, the right to life, liberty, etc. Admittedly, all these rights can be abrogated by the state, but the state has to show cause. I.e. the state needs to show why, and in most cases get the people to agree, that people should give up their right to their body for the good of society.
Essentially, we all have a right to our body, and the burden falls on those who would take that right to show why giving up that right is necessary.

I see you didn't make any argument for why the zygote/fetus is a human, which is the crux of your stance.

>>2145221
1) Birth control
2) Steady relationship
3) She was fucking 21!

Yes, it has to do with morals. Where I come from no one has children that fucking young. It's irresponsible. I know you Americans like to marry (and then divorce) as soon as you're independent, but in other parts of the world we like to enjoy our lives.

So are you saying that to avoid pregnancy one must stay celibate?

>>morals have developed through evolution and are innate human thought processes.
Proof required. What defines moral versus arbitrary? Given enough time and enforcement, even the most arbitrary thing can be seen as absolutely essential to our lives.
If you're implying the need for morals is innate as opposed to the need for a specific set of morals, then I've misunderstood your argument and I agree. Otherwise, any specific set is only as good as its transparency. In this case, the choice is between a moral that forces people to do something they don't want to do and one that doesn't.

>>you're a fucking idiot. see slavery.
How is slavery defended from my previous post?

>>no one has said anything remotely resembling that. it's not that pregnancies are some kind of bad karma from having sex, but you should fucking be educated enough to know that when you have unprotected sex, there's a chance that a little human could start developing inside of you or your partner.
I guarantee you that people having sex without protection know a kid is possible. No one that got out of the schooling system came from Blue Lagoon.
However, that's not the point. If you can't see that arguments have been made in this thread that are of the form, "Person had sex, person deals with kid since the decision was already made" then you're obviously not reading the thread.

>>2145236
or have a bit if luck, yes

their choice, their decision, their consequences to face

>>2145207

>other people get fucked

You mean like her 2 children she killed? The girl is obviously a lost cause. Abusive stepfather, got pregnant during a rocky relationship, etc. Now on top of that, she has to live with the fact that she's aborted 2 of her children. Man, good thing abortion is legal or else things would be really fucked up.

For her sake, I hope she doesn't get pregnant again, I mean think of how much suffering a child would go through if he knew his 2 older half siblings were killed by his mother.

>>2145164
But lots of young people today are, through no fault of their own, very uneducated about sex. Many parents actively oppose teaching teenagers about intercourse, contraceptives, and even the biological processes involved in sex. Is it right to fully blame the kid if they don't know what the fuck they're doing? It's just something to consider.

The OP has convinced me abortion is wrong.

NOT trolling.

gg OP, and thank you.

>>2145251
Yeah.. Those twins would have been shining roles for society if they had been raised by a woman in her condition.

Wow... Why am I so attracted to troll threads?

>>2145251
>>has to live with the fact that she's aborted 2 of her children
>>her children
>>HER CHILDREN

Potential child != CHILD

1) Continued
Much of your argument revolves around the definition of human, but that is far from obvious.

For example, mitochondria have their own seperate DNA different than your own, but you'd certainly say they're part of your body.

Are you really going to claim a single fertilized egg cell is a human?
What of a person born with no brain? They have the look of a human, but could you really say that is a person?
What makes a human?
We agree a fetus may someday grow up to be human, beyond that there is argument.

Is it negligent homicide if a girl unknowingly spends too much time in a hot tub and miscarries?

>>2145202
Women in Africa seem to handle it fine.

>>2145251
You're a fucking retard. You claim you're pro-life but now you say only "correct" people should have children.
She's normal, she's young, she's responsible, but still, not responsible or financially stable enough to have fucking twins! It wasn't even a mistake, it was very shitty luck. And believe it or not people can keep living after removing a clump of blood cells from their uterus.

I think someone mentioned zygotes. A warning to christfags. View this and you will go to hell.

>>2145242

>In this case, the choice is between a moral that forces people to do something they don't want to do and one that doesn't.

>In this case, the choice is between a moral that kills a human being and one that doesn't.

rhetoric only goes so far, friend.

>>2145271

wow, a clump of blood cells which contains its own unique dna and spontaneously develops until it becomes an adult human! quite the phenomenon, indeed!

>>2145259
Welcome to the backward thinkers. We also believe that sex is evil and that God hates gays.

>2) "what if she was raped?"

The fact that things happen infrequently does not mean they shouldn't be dealt with appropriately.
I agree, compassion, love, etc.
However, you are suggesting we force a rape victim to spend 9 months carrying the baby of her rapist. If she doesn't want to, then what? If she seeks an abortion? Do we lock her in jail?
Realize, if abortion is illegal, you're suggesting we jail rape victims for choosing not to spend 9 months pregnant with a rapist's baby.
You can say other things, like, "Oh, we'll just fine her," but if she tries anyway, or refuses to pay the fine? In the end, force is the only way.
Threatening or jailing a rape victim is not love and care.

>>2145242
>Proof required. What defines moral versus arbitrary? Given enough time and enforcement, even the most arbitrary thing can be seen as absolutely essential to our lives.
i explained the exact reasoning behind it, totally reasonable reasoning, nothing that requires a strech of the imagination in the least. even orangutans show purely altruistic behavior with no law or law enforcement. you act as though i put that statement down and expected everyone to instantly accept it.
'Moral' tends to indicate any thought which causes one to avoid their own gratification in favor of allowing another gratification, often equal or greater in magnitude. You can't have modern society without it, you can't even have a tribe. Do you see how that fits into my explanation about how the sets of genes that tended to influence one's acceptance by others, and subsequently how those genes were therefore selected for in whose offspring tended to survive, leading to a greater degree of propagation, ultimately manifesting itself in the form of a population flush with individuals with higher tendencies toward altruistic behavior than their distant ancestors?

>>2145278
This substitution relies on a fetus being a sentient person (as you can only murder sentience, note there are currently no murder trials for cows or wheat which we kill daily).
As you have not sufficiently proved this and modern research has proved the opposite (that there is no sentience until well past the time of legal abortion), the substitution is invalid.
I'll pass the rhetoric ball back to your court, you'll need it to continue.

>>2145284
Well, it's really quite a common occurrence to be honest.

And what, just because a bunch of cells have unique DNA they are special? All complicated animals have unique DNA cells. Like that part of a cow you had for dinner yesterday. And you even ate it after it was fully developed.

And what, it becomes a human being? Well, so does semen (after a couple of other steps). Am I killing babies when I masturbate too?

>>2145308
>And what, it becomes a human being? nomtterrfd Well, so does semen (after a couple of other steps). Am I killing babies when I masturbate too?

yes, but we have to be reasonable as to what can be enforced and what cannot.

>>2145266
Completely baseless uncitated statement. Great point.

>>2145321
By answering yes to that question all your other arguments are now automatically invalid. We have proof that you are retarded and with a very askew view of life. Good day to you.

>>2145265

Mitochondria DNA is not human DNA.

A person with no brain is a person, but said person will never be able to function and will die on their own.

If a girl miscarries unintentionally, it's irresponsible but probably not homicide.

>>2145336
you diddn't even bother providing a rational response. that's sad.

>>2145346
There's nothing rational about considering semen human life.

>>'Moral' tends to indicate any thought which causes one to avoid their own gratification in favor of allowing another gratification, often equal or greater in magnitude.
Then who is denied gratification when a mother has an abortion? If you're implying that the "unborn child" is being denied the gratification of life, then you are provably wrong. The "unborn child" does not exist in the sphere of sentience, denying it life is like denying a blade of grass water. Do we jail people for not watering the grass?

>>2145337
How is miscarrying unintentionally irresponsible?

STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS.

Abortion is good. Period.

>>2145346
I thought it was not needed. Cells, are not human. Human cells are not human either. Every day your body sheds bazillions of dead cells from your body. ZOMG YOUR OWN BODY IS HOMICIDAL!

Either way, tell me, why do you think it's wrong to kill a human being?

>>2145337
>If a girl miscarries unintentionally, it's irresponsible but probably not homicide.

not really. why?
she probably could have done something to help ensure a healthy childbirth. Who else can be blamed for a miscarriage? Unless her husband threw her down the stairs, then we put him in prison, but other than such a scenario it's the fault of no their body but her own and she needs to be punished to learn to be more responsible so she doesn't try to have more children ultimately killing them in miscarriage. ignorance that it would not happen is no excuse.

>>2145361
explain to me how semen constitutes life, and maybe somebody will bother replying to you in a sane way.
Tell me, when I have my period, am I committing murder? Is that unfertilized egg a living being?

>>2145306

First of all, I'm not so eager to draw a strict line as to when sentience begins. I know THAT it begins and that it certainly isn't right when the baby exits the womb. I think it's objectionable to conclude that we can define a certain time frame during pregnancy that killing a fetus is acceptable. Unless we discover a universal time frame for the start of sentience we can't declare all abortions permissible. (although the fetus is a human being before being sentient so the point is moot. otherwise what would you say of fully adult humans that don't fit your definition of sentience?)

one arguement is you forget pro-choice laws create a slippery slope where forced abortion can ultimately be implemented as un-needed population control. There are easier ways to prevent from having children so why risk this slope?

>>2145397
The world has more people on it that it can support, how is population control unneeded?

>>2145388

How about the moment when the fetus is able to survive a premature birth? Calculating that is not so far-fetched.

abortions should remain legal until at least the 30th trimester.

>>2145397
Oh yeah, what's next? EUTHANASIA!? That's murder!


It's not a slippery slope, you douche.

>>2145385

neither semen nor egg cells are genetically human.

further, there is a clear difference between a sperm cell and a fetus. whereas a fetus's chance of becoming a grown human can be defined as probable, a sperm's chance is astronomical. the view that dying fetuses is bad is compatible with that, that wasted sperm is not bad.

>>I'm not so eager to draw a strict line as to when sentience begins.
I'm not eager either, but it must be done. The argument is obviously a sigmoid, like the argument for when teenagers turn into adults. BUT we cannot sit back and let the whole thing be undefined. There are people who simply must or must not carry kids, and it's just as unfair to set the line at infinity as it is to set it at zero.

>>otherwise what would you say of fully adult humans that don't fit your definition of sentience?
There are no fully adult humans that do not fit my definition of sentience. Let adult be defined as "able to produce for oneself and make rational decisions" and let rational be defined as "following from experience and logic" and let logic be defined as the set of all boolean logic and the truncated rules of inference (all this so we don't split hairs over several posts).
If you say vegetables are adults, I will argue strongly. I do not blanketly suggest we kill them nor do I blanketly suggest that we feed them until we run out of money or they die naturally. Nearly all of these heap problems, sigmoid problems, whatever you want to call them are solved legally by a middling solution and NEVER the extremes.

>>2145427
Oh, and because its chance is astronomical the hypothetical semen baby deserves no rights!? IT'S A HUMAN BEING!

>>2145407

in that case, how do you determine whether a woman is allowed to have an abortion? the time frame isn't the same for all fetuses. should they pull the baby out for a set amount of time, and if it survives, put it back in, but if it dies, then it was fine to have the abortion?

>>2145439
Teenagers turn into adults when they turn 20. Hence the TEEN- part of teenagers. ThirTEEN through nineTEEN are TEENage. Twenty doesn't have TEEN in it, problem solved.

Verdict still out on 113-119.

>>2145397
You know what a slippery slope is? Pro-life. Next thing we know there will be some religious wackos going to sperm clinics to give all the little sperms a chance in their own or their wife's uterus.

Oh wait, that already exists.

>>2145443

>IT'S A HUMAN BEING

No, it's not.

>>2145451
Well, you chauvinistic douche, what about non-English speaking countries?

>>2145443
No, it's not. It's no more a human being than my hair and fingernail clippings are. You're doing nothing to argue your case, and the burden of proof here is on you. Explain to me what makes a spermatozoa a human being, and why it deserves the same rights as I do. Otherwise, cease your trolling.

>>2145467
Of course it's not. I was being sarcastic.

Neither are fetuses by the way. By definition it's more like a human parasite.

>>2145469
ahahaha, places that don't speak English aren't countries.

>>2145475
>>2145475
And you still live off of your mother. They should be able to kill you off when you become inconvenient.

>>2145475

I guess that depends on what definition you're using. If by human being, you mean a unique living being with human DNA, then yes, a fetus is a human being.

I'm amazed at the many assumptions pro-abortionists make in their arguments.

>>2145439
Attached is a sigmoid curve so that I don't talk over any heads.
Let it plot sentience to age for this argument and you'll see that it fits.

>>2145451
Let it plot adult-ness to age for the teenager argument and you'll see it also fits. Don't be a twat, you know what I meant by "when teens turn into adults." :P

>>2145493
Undefined assumptions have been made on both sides in this thread, no need to single one out.

>>2145488
Nope, sorry. I'm an actual person now. I'm a part of society.

But by all means, if my mother would have wanted to abort me (before I was born of course, you silly you!) it would be in her right. Either way it wouldn't really affect me since I would've never been born. That as a matter of fact would solve many of my problems... hmm....

>>2145439

i'm not saying the issue of, say, vegetables, can be solved by either extreme, but to make your case for abortion, you should also accept that letting vegetables or the severely mentally handicapped die is fine.

>>2145488
Way to make unsubstantiated claims, fail to support your argument, and sound like a total cunt at the same time.

>>2145517
whats wrong with that, again?
nomootblxplz

>>2145491
Well, a fly is a unique living being with fly DNA. So special, isn't it? Everyone here is as unique as a snow flake!

....

Just because it has unique DNA it doesn't make it any more special.

>>2145522

perhaps the same could be said for all mothers who kill their offspring for convenience.

>>2145445
>pull the baby out for a set amount of time, and if it survives, put it back in,

What? Noooooo. Do you not know how a pregnant woman and fetus are monitored in modern medicine? They take a multitude of health readings of both woman and fetus, and then tell the woman "You must carry the baby this long before you can deliver. The baby will be this healthy when delivered on this day. If the baby is delivered before this earlier date, it will die." I'm suggesting that "earlier date" be the point of no return. Of course it's different for each woman, but the prognosis will accurately survey that point of no return. Until that point of no return, an abortion is no more a killing than if the pregnancy results in a stillborn or premature infant death.

>>2145535

however, its genetic makeup still makes it a fly. killing a fly is not against the law. neither is killing a sperm cell.

I believe in population control so yes, I am pro choice.

>>2145536
Well, if you abort you end one not-even-life instead of ruining three.

>>2145549
And by law a fetus is not a human being. I'm sorry that your laws have betrayed you.

But fucking still, could you explain to me why it's wrong to kill a human being aside from the not being legal part?

>>you should also accept that letting vegetables or the severely mentally handicapped die is fine.
And why is that? I'm not saying all abortion is acceptable, I'm saying there is a point before which it is and after which it is not. We have a currently defined point (end of 2nd trimester), and I feel that yes, that's pretty close and is acceptable to me. What did you presume I meant? Something other than the current law? 30th trimester abortion option? :)

As for the sigmoid curve of the vegetables, it's a different plot. It is the plot of letting it die versus the probability of recovery. And as sad as it is, sometimes they just have to be let go. There's nothing sinful, shameful, or wrong about it, though sadness I'll agree to.

killing a fly is ok because a fly is not necessary for the function of society.
but as humans we need to have faith in each other for society to work. aka we can't fear that the moment we aren't looking or able to defend ourselves someone will kill us because there will be no significant consequences for them, only inconvenience.
Abortion is bad because it can lead to a slippery slope SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE and there are ways to prevent a child without killing one about to be born soon.

>>SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE
Abortion has been legal for a while now and there is nothing slippery about it. Stop being alarmist, it's too early in the morning for being alarmist.

>>2145585
All your arguments are so retarded I don't know where to begin... Fuck it, I give up. Your idiocy makes me rage and I know you're basically the one troll replying to eveyone.

cant fuck a baby and produce viable offspring
baby is a different species
kill it before it take sover

>>2145596
pehaps you did not quite get the jist of my arguSLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE

>>2145566

a fetus is by definition a human being, ie a unique being with human DNA. hence your fly argument only furthering my point.

it is wrong to kil human beings for all sorts of reasons, primarily because you're denying them a future. you are also doing an injustice to the person's current and future acquaintances when you kill said person.
i'll also refer you to
>>2144550

WHO CARES if a fetus is a human being?

NO ONE holds any stake in the future of the fetus aside from the parents, and mostly the mother. I certainly don't give a shit about unborn whitetrash trailer beasts. Abort Abort Abort, for the good of mankind, make abortion commonplace, inexpensive, and stigma-free.

>>2145599
i conquer totally.
atleast his arguement doesn't make fuckton of assumption.
listen to this man, he's the greatest.

>>2145610
Society has a stake in continuing its existence.

>>2145585
I hope you are joking. Otherwise, you just pointed out your fallacy.

>>2145607
When you kill a fly you're also denying it of its future.
When you kill a fetus you're not doing an injustice to any of its acquaintances because it has none. Future ones don't matter because they're only hypothetical and don't exist either.

I'm pro-abortion.
not pro-choice, mind you, pro-abortion specifically.
i want mandatory abortions EVERYONE MUST GO

>>a fetus is by definition a human being
A human, sure, it has human DNA. But a human BEING, I don't see that at all. What is it being? It isn't thinking, it isn't feeling, it is not being anything for a very long time.
And you're not denying anyone anything, it's not a person. It has no personality.
The link to //4550 is irrelevant, also.
Again and again, the burden is on you to prove that a fetus within the range of legal abortion is sentient. If you cannot, then don't bother to continue here.

>>2145610
It seems to me that OP enjoys his white trash, crime and overpopulation.

>>2145625

if killing flies was illegal, then fly abortions should be illegal too.

how about this, for every attempted abortion we will have a trial where the fetus is appointed an attourney to represent its probably desire and tendency to maintain life functions whereas the mother must present her case to the court and the fetus is the defendant.

>>2145633

not really, unless you think it's fine to kill anything that's not sentient.

>>2145619
Society is doing fine. Do you think it isn't?

>>2145636
Indeed, but that's not the point. I'm trying to figure out why pro-life people think it's morally wrong to kill a human being.

Hint: Something that can't be applied to animals as well since they're all about HUMAN BEINGS.

>>2145619

What good to society is another fucking retarded inbred piece of shit? Contributing members of society came from parents who INTENDED to reproduce. They weren't "accidents", their conception, birth, and upbringing were delibirate labors of love.

If a woman wants an abortion, by all means, all her to spare us her unwanted scum spawn. No one will miss it. Social Darwinism at it's finest, and most egalitarian.

babbies r good
why not u want me to eat babbies?

>>2145644
it could be doing better.
mrwsedthdg

>>2145645

i think even pro-choice folk would at least have to admit that it's wrong to kill people. why are you even making this argument?

Fuck babies. Can you remember anything from when you were in the womb? No. They're not even alive, not really. From now on I will kill one baby for every time I hear some pro-life shit.

>>2145648
I agree with you except for the accident part. Sometimes parents accidentally conceive a child, but since they're ready to have one or don't really mind having one, they have it and there's nothing wrong with that.

accident + wanted = good
accident + unwanted = VERY BAD

>>2145648
overpopulation such that resources cannot support the growth of all individuals leads to darwinism which creates a slight tendency to ultimately improve the quality of the biology of humans over many generations.
we need more babies and less promoting of death

>>2145643
It is absolutely, 100% fine to kill anything that is not sentient. You will get into unrelated property and ownership issues, but that is a different issue.

We set this precedent very long ago. We kill cows because we are hungry. We kill all sorts of plant life for the same reason. Trees have to go for our wooden housing and furniture. Carnivores in general MUST kill living things to eat. That also doesn't say we don't replace them, mind you.

>>2145656
Because I want to know WHY to poke holes on their stupid logic. Pro-life people tend to not have an answer to that (because they're idiots).

>>2145667

Wrong, idiot. The engine of natural selection is death. That's the SELECTION part.

you pro-choice liberal faggots make me so mad if i had power i would enact legislation to legalize abortion but force the mother to eat every baby she aborted on naional televison after the wombcooked it was cooked.

>>2145674

well shit son, let the murdering of comatose patients begin! fuck year!

>>2145585
Keeping everyone alive is not really all that great.
For reference, check almost any comment on youtube.

>>2145681
dumbass, that's EXACTLY what i said in the post.
when the resources cannot support the population, those who cannot sucessfully compete for them will tend to die off and not reproduce.

>>2145674

DUURRRR UNBORN BABIES ARE THE SAME AS TREES HURRRRRRRR THERE IS ONLY ONE DEGREE OF SENTIENCE DURRRRRR

>>2145690
i agree, but that's why i'm pro-eugenics

>>2145667
>leads to darwinism

Problem is, you don't want people to die. Or do you? You want a return to a state of nature where it is alright for people unworthy of your approval to kill each other. The strong shall live and the weak shall die. Yet you think a fetus, the weakest of all, should always be born to fall into either category of your approval-disapproval. Double-standards much?

>>2145653
Define "better" as a partial order relation as applies to societies. Then I'll get right behind you on your convictions.

Hey guys, it's OP here. I've just wanted to let you all know to disregard everything that i've typed in this thread. Also, that i suck cocks.

>>2145684
The thing is that comatose patients have a chance for recovery and if you kill them people will miss them. But hey, if they have no chance they should really let them die. Just like assisted suicide should be legal for all terminal patients.

>>2144098

This man is true, those who want to abort?

Natural selection.

>>2145705
see my pro-darwinism comment.

>>let the murdering of comatose patients begin! fuck year!
Property rights. That comatose patient belongs to someone, fuck yeah!

>>DUURRRR UNBORN BABIES ARE THE SAME AS TREES HURRRRRRRR THERE IS ONLY ONE DEGREE OF SENTIENCE DURRRRRR
Yes, there is only one degree of sentience. Sentient and not-sentient. Or if you like, "aware of its own existence on a temporal scale" and "unaware of the same." Would you like to prove otherwise?

>>2145679

because when you kill someone you're denying them their future. however, flies are not the same as people, and fly futures are not the same as human futures. people are more important than flies, and don't give me your rhetorical bullshit about why that's the case; for simplicity's sake we should just accept that it is so.
>>2145645
here you seem to agree that if killing a fly is bad, then killing a fly fetus is bad. if that's the case then what's so faulty about pro life logic?

>>2145704

Moral panic, much? Listen: sperm, eggs, zygotes, etc are not "People". They have no self interest. The only reason they have any value at all is because their owners, the parents, want them to DEVELOP into people. If they don't, then they have no value. Unless, of course, there's a God to give them value. In which case, you are a lunatic and you should GTFO and seek help.

tldr: Adults with imaginary friends are stupid.

>>2145698
No, of course they're not. That's ridiculous. Trees are way better. Trees are important for the ecosystem and they take a really fucking long time to grow. Fetuses (Not babies. Babies != Fetus. Well, even babies I guess.) are useless and no one will miss them if they are aborted.

>>2145723
Not good enough, C-, see me after class.
Partial order: reflexive, transitive, anti-symmetric. Prove it to me and I will support your definition of "better."

>>2145642
Because then only the people who can afford lawyers would be allowed to have abortions. Poor women with crappy state-appointed lawyers would end up having more babies. The balance of the classes would go awry, the impoverished working class overthrow the bourgeois capitalist pigs who could afford to have abortion lawyers and we'd end up with a goddamn revolution on our hands!

>>2145725

okay so if there is only one degree of sentience, how do you propose we define the EXACT moment that sentience begins?

>>2145735
And why is a fly's future less important than a humans? Or a chicken's. Or a cow's. Or a dog's. Why?

OH FOR CRYING OUT FUCK

everyone should simply have the right to abort whoever they want, regardless of age.Like Oswald, he didn't like the president so he aborted him.

>>2145683
Then everyone would go back to the coathangers like you know, when abortion was illegal.
Also you suck.

lets have a "thread inside a thread!"
poll time.
how much money would you want, minimum, to eat a baby, cooked?
how much for live, right after it leaves the womb, just as you sit with a plate on which the baby would come out. chew it up alive on national television, vaginal mucus and all. but one cache, you can't use your hands, you have to eat it with nothing but a spoon!
assume no health problems follow from eating baby.
also, would your answer be different if the baby were tranqilized before hand?
everyone, when you answer, let us know if you were male or female!

>>2145758

FFFFFFFUUU. Who cares?! Only the mother has any stake in that emerging sentience. If she says it's worthless, then who am I to disagree? Fuck that stupid lump of cells, if even its mother hates it, then it is truly worthless.

>>2145766

That would take a long time to explain. 4/10 because you're sort of making me rage with unanswerable questions. However, for simplicity's sake I'll say that humans are more important because we are sentient beings. Also we're awesome.

>>2145735
What makes people more important? If anything people are a blight on nature.
If you say killing humans is wrong but killing anything else is ok then you're just full of shit.

>>2145802
vegetarian alert

>>2145779

Because if it is sentient yet the mother says it's not so then it's wrong to kill the fetus.

Just like if I were to declare my child "not sentient" (because I have property rights lol) and take it upon myself to murder and rape them.

Problem is, if you're going to establish that sentience is the determining factor, you have to have a way of determining sentience itself rather than lol leave it up to the mother. If you don't then I can just keep thinking you're full of shit.

>>2145766
it's too early to go over the spiel of society and human needs and fuck HABEEB IT IT'S TOO EARLY

>>how do you propose we define the EXACT moment that sentience begins?
Have you ever worked in a scientific setting? I need to know how many things I need to define for you. Let's start with some simple truth: Exactness is impossible and furthermore unnecessary. All things in life are approximations based on the best current experimentation.

I've already suggested how we go about this currently: we set a point that satisfies the maximum number of people. Later on when we are able to check sentience, we'll use the results of that (and there are already many experiments on sentience that exist).

As you follow a sigmoid curve, this point of maximum satisfaction tends to be when (one minus, if we're being very strict) the integrals from 0 to X and X to infinity are equal. This is somewhere around 2/3, and we approximate this in current law to the end of the 2nd trimester.

Now if you have a better solution, I'd like to hear it. If your solution is to set X to be infinity/birth (that would be, that you may NEVER abort), then I claim this satisfies only a margin of the population compared to the completely logical choice of 2/3 which is maximizing.

>>2145791
Well, a fetus is not sentient. So therefore its life is less important than a humans.

Also, if you want my answer, it would be that in order for a life to be important there has to be two factors:
1) Other people will miss it or will suffer if it dies.
2) The person values it's own life. Sentience for short.

Fetuses don't really fit in either of my two reasons.

If you can make a definition for why it's wrong to kill humans that encompasses fetuses but not animals we think are OK to kill, then I'll listen to you.

>>2145791
>humans are more important because we are sentient beings. Also we're awesome.
That is not fucking good enough.

>>2145802

Well of course if killing people is fine then abortion is fine.

The assumption that killing people is wrong is sort of a prerequisite for the abortion debate.

>>2145802
people aren't more important, but in order to have a functioning society we need to have trust we won't backstab each other when we are in a defenseless position, even if that means having law enforce this.
basically all humans tend to benifit when we live in a society because humans are obviously societal creatures.
that's why we have developed to look out for our own first and foremost, because it tends to benefit us on the whole in the end.
and we have a tendency to do what benifits us because we have various innate needs.

>>2145802
Now you're just not making sense. What about us makes us unimportant? I love us, we build things.

>>2145823

sleeping homeless man with no friends or family is not sentient (he only has potential for sentience when he wakes up) and will not be missed.

imagine you had to eat a baby whole, but you had to use a spoon only and could not involve your hands. could you do it?

>>2145835
Well, your argument there is stupid for the reason that abortion is legal where I live and I don't feel that someone is going to stab me in the back when I'm not looking because of it. Neither does anyone. It actually reassures me to think that people accept abortion as legal because it means society is progressing.

>>2145843
Can I make a baby slushee?

>>2145807
>vegetarian alert
PFFf AAHAAHHAHAHA- oh wow
Actually no, i was just pointing out the... hypocrisy?

>>2145849
again, the idea is SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPsdgfdERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE

>>2145850
with only the spoon?
wouldn't it be easier just to spoon pieces of baby into your mouth?

>>2145849

that's not his argument for abortion, it's his argument for why we have to value human lives more than animal lives.

jesus fuck, pro choicers, some of you should learn to read.

>>2145841
He IS a sentient being whether asleep or not, and he has been one for all his life.

Actually, you'd have to make sure he's not dreaming before killing him because then he'd be sentient!

>>2145862

not really, i'd say it's hard to fit the definition for sentience while asleep.

>>2145841
you don't stop being sentient when you sleep...

>>2145852
What is hypocritical about the belief that sentience is worth more than non-sentience?
Use exact words.

>>2145835
Oh shi- ZOMBIE BABIES HAVE COME FOR REVENGE

>>2145861
So people are more important because we need to trust that we won't be backstabbed? RIGHT, this is certainly reasonable argument for that.

>>2145853
PRO-LIFE IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE BECAUSE THEN IT WILL BE ILLEGAL FOR US NOT TO MASTURBATE AND WE WILL BE FORCED TO HAVE SEX EVERY TIME WE GET THE CHANCE SO WE CAN MAKE MORE BABIES!

BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES BABEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

>>2145872
Maybe it is. I really don't know. It doesn't change the fact that he is a sentient being and he has always been one.

>>2145890
Well, since the day he was born anyway.

BTW, the quote from Obama needs context, since the OP has seen it fit to provide none. Namely, he was remarking upon the repugnant idea many pro-life people have that women should be forced to have unwanted children has a punishment for being (in their minds) whores. What he was saying was that a child is not and shouldn't be viewed as a punishment.

>>2145883
fucking fuck, did you not even read my argument?
how important we are has nothing to do with why we look out for one another over other animals.
secondly, overpopulation leads to darwinism tends to lead to better humanity in the end

>>2145896

This. Pro-lifers put out all this bullshit about the preciousness of life (that's a real word), but in the end they just want to PUNISH the "damn dirty heathen whores".

>>2145874
No it's "this life is more important than this life" when they are both life.

Also that guy saying slippery slope all the time: stop, god damn.

>>2144066
I sort of agree its just a shame it wouldnt be reasonable to enforce.
>>2145380
You really are an idiot arent you? You would punish a girl for accidentally killing a baby she would have kept. You really are a heartless bastard.

>>2145917
But it's a Slippppery slope! SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOP SLIPPERY SLOPE

>>2145904
Pro-lifers would have no problem making abortion illegal and damning the lives of "sinful" mothers to death by back-alley abortion techniques. THAT'S WHAT THEY DESERVE.

Hypocrisy all around.

>>2145917
why would i stop calling it a duck if it is probably a duck? i wouldn't thaSLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE FGSFDSLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE

>>secondly, overpopulation leads to darwinism tends to lead to better humanity in the end
We are not evolving like that anymore, sir. We're busy evolving tools.
Since you know so much about Darwinism/evolution, then surely you agree spiderwebs are a product of evolution. Is the world wide web?
Tubefeet, sure. Chicken legs, sure. Automobiles?
People are people, leave them alone already, we're all quite busy with something else.

>>2145903
No, it only leads to SOCIAL Darwinism. That means poor die rich live. Rich stay rich and poor stay poor. That doesn't make a better society. Even if their genes are top notch they don't get a fighting chance due to extreme poverty or whatever it is they have going on.

So no, you're an idiot.

>>2145903
Going sort of off topic here but darwinism can be better for progress BUT not better for everyones happiness which is sort of what society is going for apparently, what with the equal opportunities and such.

OIC.

If he proposes an abortion he's an insensitive prick and a dead beat dad.

If she proposes an abortion she's pro-choice.

>>2145942
I agree. We should kill all the poor people and replace them with robots as soon as we actually get robots.

>>2145942
Everyone who proposes Social Darwinism thinks that their line for who should live and die is the right one and that we would be so much better off if we trimmed what they thought of as fat. "Everyone would be happier!" Well...we have a world now where everyone can pursue their own happiness and what we're doing with it is what people would actually do with it, because we are actually doing it. We're all drawing our own lines, it's messy, it's random, it's life. LIFE. Honestly, your idea isn't new, and there's a reason we don't do it, did you ever stop and ponder that?

Some minor points first:
The very first point OP made was more like an argument for the legalisation of drugs and prostitution.

Someone said "that fetus DESERVES life" (emphasis mine). Erm, you don't actually know that.

Last minor point. "Men shouldn't even talk on this topic." Shut. The. Fuck. Up. It affects men if their wives and girlfriends can't get abortions and they are not dicks who will abandon them.

Major point:
OP and most anti-choicers' arguments seem to revolve around "a fetus is life and we shouldn't kill". I, though, have no problem with taking life under certain circumstances. I have no problem with euthanasia (I don't want to suffer years of pain inevitably followed by death, just kill me when it starts), I have no problem with the death penalty for mass-murderers, I am actually willing to go to war and kill for certain ideals (but not for governments). I therefore have no problem with ending one life to prevent two, maybe three, lives being miserable. Especially since nobody suffers because of that death (not getting a chance at life is not suffering after all).

So, you're going to have to come up with a better argument than "we shouldn't take life" because actually, under certain circumstances, we should and I would rank an unwanted baby in those circumstances.

>>2145952
Holy shit, it'd be like a robot revolution.
No, it would be The Matrix.

>>2145959
I wasn't for or against darwinism, why so personal?

>>2145936
"babby-deathmatch" new pass-time of the american elite.

- Cost of an abortion $300-$3000 depending on where you go.

- Cost of a morning after pill $8-$30.

- Pack of condoms $4.

- Seeing stupid amerikkans ask why they are so much in debt.

PRICELESS.

It's all about the sanct-fucking-ty of life till their daughter gets knockep up. Then it's waaaaaa let's go to that top clinic and get an abortion without anyone knowing about it.

Anyway, fuck you.

>>2145964
Fuck yeah, this is an awesome arguement for pro-choice.

>>Last minor point. "Men shouldn't even talk on this topic." Shut. The. Fuck. Up. It affects men if their wives and girlfriends can't get abortions and they are not dicks who will abandon them.
It affects us men, but with the current system, we're just fine. Why would wives and girlfriends not be able to get abortions?
Additionally, please keep "Shut. The. Fuck. Up." in less civil threads. It's nice here.

Your acting like babies, and humans, are more than sacks of sentient meat.

VERY RELEVANT

GEORGE CARLIN - PRO LIFE IS ANTI-WOMAN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU

SORRY CAPS

INB4 CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

(PICTURE UNRELATED LOLZ)

Abortion is outdated as far as medical procedures go.

There are so many forms of contraception out there that I don't see any need for someone to get pregnant, wait four months, and then go LOLNEVARMIND I DUN WANT BEBE.

>>2145982

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

(mewtblawks!!!onez!!!)

More abortion, less crime.
Less abortion, more crime.

>>humans, are more than sacks of sentient meat.
Like what, children of a god?
Also, aren't you too old to be saying "your" when you mean "you're"?

>>2145975
Sorry, guess that was for all the people in this thread who are arrogant enough to think that they can judge everyone's "worth". Not you, really.

>>2146006
Abortion refers to any method of killing a fetus or pre-fetus or whatever it is on the womb. That includes pills too. So if you're one month preggers and you abort... well... it's still an abortion.

>>2146016
make me feel special nao please

>>2146028
So what's the legal terminology for the two?

One is physical and one is chemically induced?

>>2146006

Underage b&. Seriously, once you're old enough to start having sex, you'll understand that double condoms, a pill, a morning after pill, and a FALCON PAUNCH still don't mean dick.

>>2146006
If only if only contraceptives worked 100% of the time.

Abortions exist in my mind for when they fail. I've had a condom break on me once. Immediately took the girl with me to PP and paid for a doctor visit and birth control. Nothing happened then, nothing has happened since (almost four years now, hell yes), but I'm always aware of the chance of a child and I know right where to go and what to do in that rare case.

Just for some anecdotification.

>>2145959
this is a terrible rebuttal to the benefits of social Darwinism.
sure, people CAN be happy, but if we can make the world even better to reduce suffering among humans and increase cumulative happiness even more in the end, then we should explore whatever allows for that. So what if the idea isn't new, so what? terrible rebuttal, terrible.

>>2145984

But we then prayed and God told us to abort that baby!!!

>>2146039

Hell, you can chemically induce a 9 month old abortion. I think a better way of thinking about it is pre-fallopian tube travel abortion and post.

100/10
OP is winrar
new game nao guis

>>2146044
OK, I'll use less words this time:

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR EVERYONE.

I even reused a bunch of them to save your brain some trouble.

>>2146042

>>2146006 here.

See, scenarios like this are ones that I hope happen when people *do* have a mishap.

I still don't understand why people need to wait X amount of months, when the fetus has undergone a significant amount of development, to abort. Why couldn't you have done what >>2146042, and undoubtedly a number of other responsible people did?

>>2146046
if jesus said to than you must kill the baby

>>2145990
What I'm saying is they would not be able to get them if the anti-choicers have their way. Therefore this debate affects men as well.

I will tell people who believe I should have no say in something because of my gender to shut the fuck up wherever I am.

>>2146062
That's why the three month rule is fine. Sometimes it's hard to determine a pregnancy. Sometimes even when pregnant women have periods. Sometimes they period is delayed for some reasons and women are OMG I MIGHT BE PREGNANT!

I mean, a broken condom is easy to detect, but sometimes even birth control pills fail.

All right then.

So would anybody here have agreed if your moms wanted to abort you?

>>2146092

If my mom aborted me I wouldn't know shit thus wouldn't care.

>>2146092
Yes. I would have never lived so it wouldn't really matter.

>>2146042

i hope you will get your slut pregnant, sonofabitch

>>2146094
>>2146096

ITT:

Unborn an heros.

All right, pro-choice and rationality win again.

NEXT TROLL PLEASE.

>>2146042 here
Also, more fun facts, I'm:
>>2144955
>>2145099
>>2145242
>>2145439
>>2145569
>>2145819 and a few others,
for those of you who follow huge threads.

>>2146097
Well she is beautiful, I wouldn't mind THAT much. The child would be amazing.

>>2146062
Note my own reaction to what happens without abortion. I am obviously now someone who defends abortion at logical lengths, and yet I am fine with having a child after all. THIS is why people hesitate to abort, to use birth control, to not pull out, what-have-you. Kids, man.

If we go by Social Darwinism all southern trailer parks must be wiped out.

op is the best troll ever

>>2146092
Who gives a shit, you're aborted.

>>2146160

> Well she is beautiful, I wouldn't mind THAT much. The child would be first afro-italian president.

Fixed that for you.


(mewtwoblawks!!21!!)

>>2143949
THEN WHO WAS FETUS??

>>2146092
Well, nobody asks the kid if they want to be born.
Don't mistake me, I'm not an emo-kid and I do love being alive but not EVERYBODY does. The fact that the fetus does not have a choice either way is unavoidable. If we could give everyone a choice, "You can either have existed or not," some people would choose "no". We know this for a fact because some people choose to end their own existence.

So, if I was given that choice now I would say, "No thanks, I'd like to be born." That doesn't mean everybody would and it certainly isn't a very good argument against abortion. Anymore than "you wouldn't like to be executed" is a good argument against the death penalty or "you wouldn't like it if your sexual preferences were illegal" is a good argument for paedophilia being legal.

Learn to argue rationally and you will become pro-choice because there is no rational argument for the anti-choice position. Certainly none have been given in this thread.

Over 400 replies?

400+/10 OP

Good fucking job.

>>2146430
Can we please get over the idea that if someone brings up a controversial subject they are troll? That would make politicians the biggest trolls ev... oh, wait, yeah.

>>2146485
If someone is incorrect they are a troll in my book.

I'm tired of everything you pick pro-abortion, so I have a list of arguments and a general reaction to it.

Note: If I say "list", I mean it: I have a lot of responses, you is arrogant pin prick
1) "a woman's right to her own body."

first off, it's stupid to think that the law can not tell us what we can not do with our bodies. we can not wait to certain drugs in them or sell ourselves for sex. secondly, this statement completely ignores the fact that the unborn is completely separate from persons of the mother. how can someone have two heartbeat, two different types of blood, two sets of DNA? and if the unborn is a man, how can a woman a male part of her body? yes, the unborn have their mother nutrition and safety, but that does not make them more a part of her body than she swallows some food is a part of her body.

To refute this statement, I will tell a story about a boy who had surgery for spina bifida, even before he was born. at the end of the surgery, reached the baby from the uterus and grabbed the doctor's finger. my question is this ... who grabbed the doctor's finger? (Full story: http://joseromia.tripod.com/samuel.html)


2) "what if she was raped?"

1% of all abortions each year are the result of rape / incest. Although this is a very small number, this situation should be approached with great compassion, because already the victim through a violent act. why should we take her to another subject, namely that of killing her own child? two injustice do not a right, and abortion will not reduce the trauma of the rape. the victim must love and care, and both she and her unborn child deserve better than abortion.

What I don't get is why the fuck do pro-life people even care?

I am feverishly opinionated about this because I'm pro-choice and it's a right that I would not like taken from me. I use birth control, don't get me wrong, but if it fails and I accidentally my girl preggers then I want to have the right to abort. I don't want to fuck up my life because of a mistake that wasn't even my fault. I don't want to fuck up my girl's life or my hypothetical baby's life either. I also don't wish that for anybody.

If a pro-life guy gets his girl pregnant and abortion is legal... what the fuck does he care? He can have his shitty baby and ruin his life if he wants to.

I'm fighting for my fucking rights here, they're fighting for the abolition of rights. Of if you want to put it nicer, the rights of a bunch of cells which apparently are more important than my own.

tl;dr: pro-life != rationality

Cool. Guess you'll just adopt and support all those un-aborted babies then, right OP?

>>2143949
>>2143962
>>2143966
>>2143994
>>2144012

PROFESSIONAL TROLL IS PROFESSIONAL AND SUCCESSFULL.
>>2144046

ITT faggots try, but fail at making a real arguments against the OP.

My contribution: The people who argue that FETUS IS NOT PERSON BECAUSE IS DEPENDANT ON THE MOTHER are fucking retarded. A fetus is not any more dependant on its mother than 1 year old is.

>>2143949

Tell me OP, What is life? How do you define it? When does life start and death begin? Is a single cell on my hand alive?

>>2146602
ITT we can tell who didn't read the thread.

Read it. You can see that pro-life fails because it's irrational. They have no consistency of beliefs either.

Yay, lets overpopulate an alredy vastly overpopulated world by forceing women to have children!

lol prolife people make me giggle.
99% of pro lifers.

"I LOVE ALL BABIES, DONT KILL FETUS"
Me: "Fine.. adopt my child, raise it for 18 years, pay for it's college and you can have it."
"THATS NOT MY JOB, BABY IS SACRED, DONT KILL BABY"


Part two
"DONT KILL BABY, IS BABY NOT FETUS!"
Me: "Ok, so you have a position of life, would you let a man who raped children off of death row?"
"OMG NO, HE SHOULD DIE."
Me: *Facepalm* What about wars?
"TERRORISTS WANT US DEAD, WE MUST KILL THEM FIRST"
Me: *Gun in mouth*

>>2146662
Oh god I lol'd so hard..

mootbloxor

>>2146662
that seems like a thread ender to me lolol

Separation of church and state, bitches. We can't make abortion illegal without obviously becoming a Christian run nation.


And by your own logic we can't be using medicines because that's intervention of god's divine plan.

Give it up. We developed abortion techniques. If god hadn't intended for us to control our population we wouldn't have safe abortion techniques.

Worm your way out of that one, fucker.

The same stuff has been said ten times over by now. Read the thread and you will find someone who has said the same thing you are about to.

>>2146690
>>2146677

are both >>2146662

TRIPPLE RETARD!!!

Think about the kid that's going to be born, you douche. If the law forces a woman to keep the kid, either s/he's going to grow up in an environment where s/he's unwanted, or will end up in adoption. Chances are that the mother isn't earning enough to support a kid, either, only adding to the growing undereducated lower-class population. Why would you subject a kid to that?

Anyway, the world's already holding more people than it can comfortably support. I was almost an abortion and I regret not being aborted (in b4 "post-birth abortion hurr durr")

human beings are sentient; it's completely alright to kill non-intelligent life forms within the boundaries of ecological sensibility, and since foetuses belong into the societal sphere, disposing of them is not immoral (thought morality has no place in a secular society - call it unethical), as they don't feel pain, technically - they are unaware of themselves and their surroundings. And even if they were and did, it should still be the women regulating their own bodies. I do not condone societal regulations on imbibing substances or modifying one's own body.