I didn't read most of what you wrote (too long).

But in my opinion, a fetus is just another part of a woman's body, like a liver or kidney, until it comes out. It's a potential for human life, and nothing but. Potential.

Kill it, there are enough people trying to survive as it is.

tl;dr
I don't care about people until they can rationalize, so protecting the life of a fetus, or even someone severely retarded is of no more interest to me than protecting the life of an animal.

I think the basic difference between pro-choice and pro-life is the unequal terms they use. The opposite of life is death, and choice does not equal death. the woman may chose to keep her baby.

My sister got pregnant by a guy she had only been dating a few months while she was still living at home. She freaked out. she eventually decided to have the kid, but she told us, later, that the she would have hated carrying the baby if she had known that she had no choice in the matter. she didn't choose to get pregnant (and, no, acting irresponsibly does not equal jumping willingly into the worst possible scenario) but because she had the option of terminating the pregnancy, she still had the choice of becoming a parent. Motherhood should not be a trap. there are people who are poorly prepared for it, and genuinely don't want it. forcing someone to take care of a kid for the rest of their lives is child abuse, plain and simple

If there's a person inside? No. If there's a first trimester fetus? If the mother doesn't object, then okay.

For starters, it's "err on the side of caution."

It isn't just money you get, it's the rest of your life not being in chains.

I'm not decided either way, but I know when my girlfriend and I had a scare, we had directions to the Planned Parenthood office printed out.

Your analogy is flawed, OP.
It'd be more accurate if you said that said person might cause even more financial difficulty in your life and/or cause your death if (s)he lived.

Why do you think that a bundle of cells is more important than a number of thinking, breathing human beings?

An unwanted child can easily ruin two adult's lives, and then the child's as well. Think it over.

There is a marked difference between a complete unknown, as in your example, and defining the parameters of a known.

In your example, the person with the button doesn't know if there is a man in the box, a woman, a child etc... what each button-holder visualizes may be a completely different definition of "person". The quality of personhood has already been established, and it is simply a matter of will dropping the blade fall and kill the person, or will the box be empty.

In the case of abortion, the definition of personhood has not been established. That is the key difference. You're given a "thing" and asked "Is this a person, or isn't it?" That is the crux of the debate.

>>2089840
Your logic isn't as soundproof as you think it is. Do you use condoms? Well, as many religious nuts will kindly remind you, condoms prevent the existence of life in much the same way that abortion does (that is, they turn a situation where there would be in a baby into a situation where there is no baby). Do you "err on the side of caution" there, and stop using condoms?

My point is that honestly believing this:
>How can anyone be sure of what constitutes human life? If you are not sure then morally and analytically wouldn't you have to air on the side of caution?

will be ridiculously restrictive if you actually practice what you preach.

Of course, it's even more in-depth than that. You may claim that you have no right to push the button in your scenario, but do you also have the right to tell OTHER people that they cannot push the button, or is it up to each individual?

Essentially, I think you're oversimplifying the problem in your attempt to find a logical answer.

>>2089974
lol wow change
>soundproof
to
>foolproof
I obviously need sleep

What's wrong with abortion? What if the woman was raped and ended up having to take care of the child on her own? She'll be in a shit situation, and her child would end up lacking social skills or whatever because of having no father.
And what about teen pregnancy? Teenagers can't even take care of themselves yet, but would you expect them to take care of their own child?

Besides, things die every day. I wouldn't give a shit if a nigger died right in front of me, even if it's a "human".

>I don't care about people until they can rationalize, so protecting the life of a fetus, or even someone severely retarded is of no more interest to me than protecting the life of an animal.

Exactly this is morality...

It's not the fact that we're human that makes us special, it's the fact that we can think of our future and have interest/rationality. If you are against abortion then you damn well better be against killing animals cause if not you're a fucking hypocrite

pro-life people look at families and children differently from someone who is pro-choice. the see the world in absolutes and stark black and white. a pro-choice person understands that situations have many different causes and may need different solutions, based on the circumstance. it pisses me off to hear shreiking morons like Anne Coulter telling the drooling masses that "liberals" want every woman to have an abortion. as if anyone would be so monstrous. what is worse, is that people eat that garbage up.

but, back to your argument: its a little flawed. The hypothetical person in your box would have a history, a family, friends, and a future. Destroying a life is no easy thing, because it impacts so many other lives. its one thing to shoot a guy. its another thing to tell his mother and father that you just shot him.

But a fetus does not equal a fully functioning human being. if the fetus has Down Syndrome, it will never be a FULLY functioning human being. and, worse, the parents will be dealt a cruel joke. they will be baited with dreams of raising a normal family and delivered, instead, a very different, difficult one.

And, what about the teenage mother whose parents don't want her to carry the child? what about the rape victim? its hard to let one potential person ruin the life of a person who already had friends, a history, and a future.

>>2089905
OP here, good point I forgot to add a consequence for not pressing the button to the analogy.

>If there's a person inside?

Shut up
Person =/= Human Being

Our ability to rationalize and have future directed motives is what makes us a person and sets us on a higher bar then animals. Humans beings aren't all that great and aren't special, it's being rational that makes us better.

>>2089979

well yeah the rape thing i agree with, but those teenagers know exactly what they are doing and if not responsible must deal with the consequences..

They made the bed, They lay in it.

I don't consider a baby a living human being until they have noticeable brain activity. There. Thats my criteria. As such, every arguement against abortion goes out the window until the baby is sufficiently developed.

I realize it does, in most cases, prevent a life from coming to be. But to me that isn't the same as murder. By that logic, having protected sex is murder. Its all the same thing.

That being said, I despise people who use abortion as a "get out of pregnancy card". They make me sick. But so do many other things, and I don't believe I can tell people how to live their lives. If it were, I would forbid abortions, except when there are extenuating circumstances, such as; Incest, debilitating birth defects, or a clear danger to the mother. Maybe a few other reasons. But it isn't up to me, and I don't think anybody has the right to make such distinctions a matter of law.

>>2089974

Not really. Condoms prevent life before it exists, abortion destroys it after it has been created; which is also how religious nutjobs feel about it (Catholics are against condoms because they feel sex should only be engaged in for reproductive purposes).

Personally, the only reason I'm pro-choice is the same reason I'm pro-death penalty and self-defense; sometimes, the best way to deal with a situation is to kill someone. There's no good way of dealing with an unwanted kid.

>>2089974
The religious, or at least Catholic, argument against the use of condoms isn't that it prevents the potential of life, which is an argument too dumb even for them.

Rather the view is that the sole purpose of sex is procreation, so sex for any other reason is inherently sinful. Still really stupid, but its a different argument with different refutations.

This is either an incredibly subtle troll or a complete dumbass. Either way, subject matter didn't make me rage half as hard as shit punctuation and spelling.

IT'S "ERR", PRONOUNCED "ER" AS IN OFF-ER, NOT "AIR", YOU SLACK-JAWED YOKEL. LEARN TO ENGLISH LANGUAGE, MOTHERFUCKER, AND COME BACK WHEN YOU'VE GOT A WIT IN YOUR HEAD.

I guarantee OP is underage.

>"air"
>"agnostic on many subjects"

your picture describes my feelings exactly, FUCKING NIGGER RAGE!!

natural law theory broskis.... A ton of religions feel sex is wrong till marriage and using birth control in any way is a sin because sex should purely be for procreation.

It's my belief that abortions should need a prescription to acquire. If you really need one, you should have no difficulty convincing your doctor (who should leave his personal morals at home) for a scrip. If you're just fucking around, just as he wouldn't prescribe you morphine (I hope), he wouldn't prescribe your abortion. Really, it shouldn't be up to the general public to decide whether or not they're acceptable and who gets them. Like all medical procedures, the doctors should be taking care of that.

>>2090135
>LEARN TO ENGLISH LANGUAGE, MOTHERFUCKER

Good point, but this still made me lol.

While I would personally advise someone against having an abortion (unless they were at elevated risk), I'm at a loss at deciding whether or not it should be allowed. It's too sensitive an issue even for states to handle; I think it should fall to county government.

It is my belief that prescriptions for all medications should be abolished. Who is a man to tell me what i can and can't do to my body. I am a slave to no organsiation.

If i want to jump off a cliff i'll do it without getting a permit.

>>2090191
How the fuck is a doctor going to turn you down... People don't get abortions for fun, they get them because they have no other options.

>>2090267
There are lots of doctors who, for personal reasons, refuse to even offer the morning after pill. They say it's against their morals, and our current system says it's okay for them to deny a patient treatment because they're morally opposed to the result. I see that as not being more than a few steps from refusing to treat gunshot victims because it might be gang activity, but still....

I still struggle with my beliefs, but I'm pretty pro-life. Anti-abortion except in cases where the mother and child's lives are in danger. If the child is going to die no matter what, kill it prematurely and let the mother live to bare another.

Here's my take on the "fetus is simply potential." Is a pile of iron ore and oil and aluminum and such worthless because it only has potential to be a car? No, the potentiality is what gives the thing value.

Is a child who is the product of rape or incest any less human than a child who was conceived by consensual sexual intercourse between two loving spouses? I don't think so. Will their life be a little more difficult? Of course. That doesn't mean they can't have influence. Maybe someone will consider their messed-up life a "consequence" of having frivolous sex.

Do parents of Downs Syndrome children go "Bwah, he's not perfect, kill him now!" Of course not. Even women who have stillborn children want to see their baby and show it affection, difficult as it may be.

I was born with cleft lip and palate. Were my parents sad or disappointed that I didn't come out perfect? Not at all! They were ecstatic because I was their baby boy. Sure, there would be some small hurdles, but they'd make it. They even had the guts to try again (even though the doctor warned that they could have another cleft baby).

I'm surprised that no one had brought up adoption (last I read). Young girls who become pregnant don't *have* to keep the baby. They can give it away. They should still see him and take care of him for a while before parting - so that they know that they've had a baby and did their best.

My grandfather is a Catholic OB/GYN, so I've heard a lot about abortion and its effects on women who chose it. It's not an easy choice and is hard on both the mother and father.

Do unto others, I guess.

>>2090267
actually, there are some stupid fuckers in this world. I knew a woman who could barely provide for herself and two daughters. her boyfriend was an abusive moron, and she prefered partying to working. she told, once, that if she had kept every kid she had gotten pregnant with, she would have seven kids.

I'm a liberal on everything but abortion. I'm sorry but I just can't bring myself to sympathize with smug feminazis.

>>2090330
Wow. Re-reading this, it's very jumbled and jumps around a lot.

As I said, I still struggle.

>>2090304
Yea he said "If they put their morality aside" If they do from a doctor's perspective they really wouldn't have a reason to ever turn you down.

>>2090379
I hate it when people are against something because of percieved supporters, and not on the subject at hand. Why I can't stand /v/ or /a/ anymore.

>>2090393
RAGGGGGGGGE FIST! BRO CAPS ETC I HATE THAT!

>>2090330
But by the potential arguement, masturbation(for men) is murder, condoms are murder and castration is murder.

>>2090330
this is why the view point is called "pro-CHOICE". people have different morals, and will definitely act on those morals. some things are just unacceptable. I think there should be a limit on abortions. beyond that point, the woman has her fallopian tubes tied, because she is obviously a moron.

but, some women don't want to have to suffer for 9 months after they were raped, just so they baby can be adopted. they want it over with ASAP. Most women will refuse abortion, especially if they are given time to consider it and talk to parents, and whatever. but, personally, I think that decision is too difficult and dangerous to be left to anyone but the person who will suffer the most from doing the wrong thing.

Think of overpopulation. We kill one another either way

It has been proven that before the third trimester a fetus cannot feel pain, has no consciousness, and is not self aware. Killing a fetus is pretty much like putting sperm in a wad of tissue.

>>2090463
PROTIP: Adoption is worse than never existing

If you oppose abortion you also oppose condoms and sex for recreation which means you are a religious nut who does not realize we as a biological creature need sex.

Technology's purpose is to make life easier whether it be getting to places without work or loss of time, or the removal of the side effects of sex.

So until 7 months the child is a patch of cells to me.

I pretty much think that people who really want one are going to have one any way possible, and I'd prefer there be a safe way for it to happen. I also hate the idea that were a loved one violently brutalized, they would be forced to go through the further trauma of childbirth, including the numerous ways that having kids can fuck up your health for good, all because someone who has never suffered through that situation can say he did the morally appropriate thing.

I've never been pregnant, had an abortion, or had a child. I don't know what I would do in any of those situations. I just hate seeing people shoehorned into tight corners by people whose lives aren't affected by the decisions they make over others' lives.

>>2090330
That arguement by extension would mean it's okay anyone with down syndrome. After all they can't do what everyone else does. Even then I could look at a human fetus and see it the same way I look at iron:just a resource

>>2090523
So you mean you aren't a psychotic sadistic pretentious asshole who wants everyone to be just like him or goddamn it they need to suffer?

Here's the thing: if something is technically alive but completely unaware of itself and cannot feel pain, I don't feel too bad about killing it.

>>2090569
Pretty much this. We kill chickens, cows, and pigs and eat them, and they're much more cognitively aware than a fetus. If it genuinely makes the mom-to-be's life significantly better, why are we fussed about this?

>>2090463
1) Get raped, have an abortion.

Live with the pain of rape and an abortion for the rest of your life. Also, potential mishaps from abortion procedure.

2) Get raped, carry the baby to term, give him up for adoption.

Live with the pain of rape for the rest of your life and make someone else happy because they have a child to care for. Yes, the child could learn at some point that they were conceived violently and decide that their life isn't worth living. They could also decide that they have the best biological mother and adoptive parents due to the love shown to them.

I'll admit there's likely lots of bias in what I've written, but that's how I see it. Again, I'm pretty pro-life (I catch houseflies to let them free outside). I'll also admit that pro-choice doesn't mean "abortion 100% of the time" (because that would be dumb) and that we could certainly keep Roe v. Wade intact and do other things to reduce unwanted pregnancies. But I know that if a friend asked my advice, I'd do everything I could to get them to have the child rather than abort.

I understand and agree (to a fuzzy point ;-) ) with the Catholic Church's position on contraception and masturbation. They're both pretty destructive and there are "Church-legal" alternatives (rhythm and other forms of NFP) which can be just as effective. I have a hard time trying to lecture anyone on them, though, as I do see the difference between gametes and embryos.

If you ever get a chance, get ahold of some several day old fertilized chicken eggs and crack them open CAREFULLY. We did this in a biology class in college and - while gruesome - it was fascinating. I was the one at the end of the class that collected the cracked eggs and flushed them down the toilet. Ugh, I felt like shit.

So I'm probably a complete bastard, and rightly so, but I believe two things:

1) A fetus is 'alive' and can be considered a human being even before it is born.
2) A woman as a right to her own body and her own decisions with what to do with it and if she feels she wants to murder the fetus before it is born she is allowed to do so.

I suppose that makes me Pro-Death, all things considered. But life is about survival, not touchy-feely 'everything is fair' bullshit. I may draw the line if the fetus could survive outside of the female body AND if someone actively wanted the fetus to survive, but if it's neither of those things kill it if you don't want it.

>>2089840
There's one factor missing in this thought experiment:

You do not know what is in the box (though you are told that it might be a human being in the box), but you are given the option of destroying the box and getting a lot of money or not.

If you do not destroy the box, however, you are responsible for taking care of everything in the box, regardless of what it is.

The decision becomes harder. If it's a human, you're fucked in some fashion either way, because you're either killing someone else or having to support them for an indeterminate amount of time. If it's not a human, you're not missing out on anything either way.

In either example, however, I'd consider destroying the box to be the best option. If there's nothing in the box, free money as opposed to nothing in return for not destroying the box. If it's a human, it's free money and the knowledge that you killed someone as opposed to having to take care of that person for God knows how long.

There is nothing that actually makes us worry more about other people, or the human race in general, more than ourselves other than some "moral" code that is even still precipitated on selfish desires: if you're of some sort of faith, you follow certain codes that do good for others because it helps you in some way (get to heaven, reach enlightenment, etc), and if you're not of some sort of faith, you still generally follow the "Golden Rule", that you do to other people what you want done to you, a very selfish ideal when examined.

>>2090687
Well, I'd take the person in the box if it was a wee lass...if you catch my drift.

>>2090638
You're pretty fuzzy there on the terms of what actually happens during birth, pal. Like, you left out the part where, even if the pregnancy goes perfectly--and it probably won't, due to stress--she's still going to have to deal with the physical trauma of a baby being shoved through her vagina. Did you know that often times the doctor has to go in with a huge pair of scissors and cut the muscles around the vaginal opening to make sure the baby's shoulders will fit? There are also problems like post-partem depression, gestational diabetes, and other complications, like if her body just isn't built for the stress of carrying a child. Not to mention the bladder and digestion problems that come from having something in there shoving things around to fit a space for itself.

It's one thing to ask for these problems yourself, or to suffer them through your own foolishness, but you think a rape victim should live the rest of her life with her body permanently fucked up so that you can feel better that a child is somewhere living its cold, lonely life being bounced around the system, knowing its mom didn't want or love them? And then, when the child gets older, what if it looks for her? She has to deal with this interruption in her life (she might actually have a family she wants by then), one that reminds her just by standing there that one day, someone shoved her up against a wall and stole sex from her? What if the child actually looks like the rapist? It's not the kid's fault, but could you imagine living your whole life unhappy, then finding your mom, only to learn that not only does she not give a flying fuck about you, just looking at you makes her nauseous?

>>2090638

>(I catch houseflies to let them free outside)

Do you also let a spider outside with 3 legs gone instead of putting it out of it's misery?

That's essentially what adoption is.

I have many reasons.

First, I consider the majority of humanity to be horrible fucks who probably don't deserve life. That probably sums up everything else for people, actually. Fetuses aren't even thinking yet, which is the entire point of "human being" and theoretically should separate us from animals, so why should I care about a mass of cells. Even if they are to the point of possible thought, why should I want them to live in this fucked up world, or alternately, why should I still care that it's a human if I don't care about the rest of humanity?

There are plenty of unwanted babies born into this world, and aren't taken care of. It causes more suffering in the end and is not worth it. If the parents aren't ready, can't afford, or are general fuck-ups like the rest of society, they shouldn't have a kid. They should have been more responsible before, but as I said people are fuckups and have to be cleaned up after.

It bothers me that EVERYONE who brings up Adoption never even ONCE considers the fact that the female still has to live with the burden for 9 months. If you brought this up and then said, "That's her punishment for not being more responsible" that's a perfectly reasonable argument. Otherwise, it's ridiculous to tell someone to put up with something for 9 months at a cost and no personal gain.

Nobody ever talks about accidental pregnancies. What if they WERE using a condom everytime, but this time it was a factory defect and some semen leaked through? Well they can't control that, so why should they have to live with a baby. Or birth control pills, which while 98-99% effective means 1-2% of the time will result in a baby ANYWAY, which is something that people shouldn't have to pay for.

>>2090734
With risk comes consequence.

Your hypothetical couple knew the possibilities going into the deal. No condom promises to prevent pregnancy or the spread of STDs. Only to reduce the risk.

If a casino had a game that paid out 99% of the time, would they reimburse the unlucky 1/100? No way! They knew the risks when they played the game.

ITT:Trolls bump themselves

>>2089840
I'd push the button. Shit, I'd push the button if the box was clear and I saw someone was in there.