I don't know, but words have meaning so the question is meaningless.

I dunno man, it has no meaning. It's just a word now, right?

>>12962697

A simpleton's response.

Words as we know them are arbitrary sounds attached to concepts.

Objects remain what they are even if there are no words for them. A rock is a rock even without the word rock.

But a concept like government cannot exist without communication.

I probably could, but I'd have to spend a while creating an image to post, using symbols and metaphors to explain it.

>>12962711
but IS a rock truly a rock?

>>12962723

It is what it is.
It is a thing you can hold, and interact with, and use to interact with other things.

Is it real or imaginary? Only you can decide. Yet it would continue to exist even if language was eliminated.

But government and interpersonal communication, social morays, etc., would cease to be without the common thread of language.

>>12962711
But that's what meaning is - it's an interaction of symbols and associations attached to objects and concepts.

>>12962711
>But a concept like government cannot exist without communication

And? We do have communication. Your point is moot.

>>12962773
>HERP DERP why speculate about what could be

What is it like to be so stupid that you cannot look beyond yourself or imagine what could be?

>DERP I JUST GOT OUT OF MY INTRO TO PHILOSOPHY CLASS AND CREATED A THREAD ABOUT WHAT WE DISCUSSED

>>12962673
No words intrinsically have meaning, dear. They are social constructs like pretty much most things human.

It doesn't mean we go willy nilly go shooting people up because of that. It just means that we have to step back and look at things in perspective, that's all.

Humans, we are swarm creatures--we follow leaders, some of us are followers (workers) and some of us are soldiers (protectors) but we need a foundation so that we can do these things respectively. That's where culture and society come in.

It's all socially constructed, well, unless it isn't. Nothing to be alarmed about here. Move along, move along.

What is government?
An establishment of snide and untrustworthy businessmen looking to obtain all that is not theirs and crush all opposition, whilst maintaining the illusion the subordinates underneath them have some sort of right to vocally display their opinion, and for said officials to jump through these "hoops" for the proletariat, which fuels the illusion that we, as the common people, have some sort of actual voice in the world, where our judgments really determine who is held in office, and what decisions are made.
You are all the proletariat, and your words mean nothing.

>>12962827
>HURR DURR I DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO CURRENT EVENTS SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THE OP QUESTION IS WHAT THAT CRAZY GUY IN ARIZONA ASKED THAT SENATOR HE SHOT A YEAR BEFORE HE KILLED HER

Ignorance + Arrogance = You

>>12962801
>don't worry myself with idiotic thoughts like "if words didn't exist, if communication didn't exist, governments wouldn't either"
>get called stupid

Yeah, you keep thinking the same way as a mass murderer, and I'll keep thinking like a sane person

>>12962860
>I believe what I am told.
>I do what I am told.
>I am happy to be a cog in the machine.

Good for you, Anon.
We need more Americans like you to keep the Capitalist Machine running smoothly.

Choose life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed- interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing sprit- crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing you last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked-up brats you have spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future.

control the grammar

i can be the mind controller

I can't fucking answer OP's question, because r9k won't allow me to post textless replies.

>faggot asking what something is but doesn't want replies in word form
>interpretive dance time

>>12962887
Cool plagiarization bro.

>>12962840
>No words intrinsically have meaning, dear. They are social constructs like pretty much most things human.

When did I say this is untrue?

My definition of "meaning" being an interaction of symbols and associations attached to objects and concepts doesn't assume the origin of the symbols and associations. The symbols and associations are, of course, social constructs - that's what communication is. It's a social tool of shared symbols and associations.

i would humbly suggest you get a dictionary. it took us about 5,000 years for us to come up with it, i would suggest you pick one up.

>>12962887
>Get told
>Make assumptions about the person

I'm not even American... How does it feel to be completely retarded to the point you can't even construct a legitimate argument to defend your points?

>>12962840

What the hell do you mean, no words intrinsically have meaning? You are so full of shit.

For example, cat. Cat is an object of the cat species. That is what it means.

And don't go ohhh intrisically its just sounds, because intrinsically it's just interacting air molecules and intrisically you are just a chemical reaction and intrinsically we are just all subatomic particles that got stuck together.

>>12962887
Gl running free in alaska bro.
YIPIKAYEEEEE

>>12962847
The mocking can still be applied to the shooter.
>>12962673
>>12962723
Stop raping ontology. Just fucking stop. Philosophy and, in this case, linguistics, is more than just "HAY GAIZ WHAT IF WE ARE IN THE MATRIX RIGHT NOW HAVE U EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT I MEEN PROVE ME WRONG RITE?", which is what you're doing. Entities exist without human assigned identities, and while the FORMATION of government requires communication, as an entity it can exist anyways, and besides, you're asking the question with the preface that words are MEANINGLESS, not that they can't be used. Of course words have no inherent meaning, since they're just sounds, but the idea of communication extends BEYOND verbalization. That's like saying "HAY IF MONEY IS JUST CLOTH HOW CAN DA ECONOMY EXIST????/"

>>12962827
No, it's one of Jared Loughner's phrases.

>>12962920
A cat is only a cat because we named it cat. Yes, it would still be IT without a name and it doesn't take away from its existence but AGAIN. WORDS ARE INTRINSICALLY MEANINGLESS.

WE ADD MEANING TO THEM by ASSIGNING THEM TO OBJECTS OR ABSTRACT IDEAS ETC.

>>12962916
lol why you mad

>>12962916
>implying America is the only capitalist nation

Seriously? Wow.

>>12962948
>>12962948
Ohhh.
Schizophrenia is one hell of a condition.

>>12962952
Does anybody actually disagree with this elementary observation?

>>12962711
Read Putnam's stuff on theory of language and Wittgenstein's language games stuff before you spout off like a retard
Also what the fuck is the argument you are trying to get across. Is it:
P1) If words have no intrinsic meaning then communication is impossible
P2) If communication is impossible then so is government
P3) Words have no intrinsic meaning
C) Government is impossible
If so then I want you to know that every single one of those proposition is (and has to various extents) been refuted. Furthermore the brute fact that we have government means that all of this is pointless. Goddamn I probably got trolled

>>12962969
Pretty much this
>99.9999999% of first world nations are capitalist
>be accused of being a capitalist
>"lol not even mad im not amurrican"
fucking retard.

>>12962908

I took your statement (or rather Loughner's statement) to mean that you don't understand this phenomena; the one about us assigning meaning to our world.

Government is one of the many cultural vehicles, if you will, that humans use (sometimes) in their daily lives. Sometimes these vehicles bring order, structure to living. Humans do best when they have something guiding them.

Government just like the word 'cat', brought up from one of the derptards earlier are simply labels that help us organize the meaning we have assigned to these things--is all.

Primitivists are so fucking pretentious. Go live in the woods or kill yourself.

>>12962952
Semantic externalist here. OP is a raging faggot. Peace I'm out

>>12962987

No and it was a very astute observation. Give yourself a cookie or something fuckstick.

>>12962989

Premise P1 is false.

>>12962952

Everything is intrinsically meaningless. What is your point?

>>12962987
No but it means jack shit. Meaning doesn't have to be in the object itself. It can either be in the mind or in the causal history of a word (Putnam's twin earth stuff) so it's a rather elemantary observation unless you go somewhere with it

Words may not have meaning, but the faith, or ideology, people place into these words have. Essentially, government is much like a religion in the sense that people believe in a metaphysical hierarchy that, in their eyes, is required to have order and stability in a society.

In other words government doesn't exist, only the values of people's faith in it do.

>>12962987
Anyone who disagrees does not understand themselves and their own human existence.

If humans only understood this one thing about life, the world might actually be a better place. Life is full of derptards who don't realize this so they fight, fight fight all their lives trying to etch subjective ideas into stone as if that will make them real.

Truth shall set you free, people. No truer words have been spoken.

>>12963025
I know. I was trying to figure out what OP is trying to say. Do you have a better interpretation.He doesn't set out his points very clearly

>>12963047
>No truer words have been spoken.

Words have no truth, faggot.

>>12962987
>Does anybody actually disagree with this elementary observation?

See >>12962920

Apparently some people really are that stupid.

>>12963047
Fatalism is a fucking terrible philosophical standpoint though and that is where your train of thought seems to be leading

>>12963012
Honey, if you can't stand the fire get out of the kitchen. Don't let the door hit ya where the dog bit ya.

By the way, all words I just used are social constructs and they do their work beautifully nonetheless.

Again, the truth shall set you free but if you are not ready or mature enough to handle it, stay out of the motherfudgin kitchen.

>>12962916
Uh oh somebody got mad!

>>12963066
As a person who studied epistemology for the last three months you're words actually make me cry

>>12963066
They do if assign truth, faggot. And I just have.

You are now aware this same line of thought can be expanded to economics and the value of commodities and services.

>>12963068

True, true.

That is the sad state of existence, there are few men and women who don't have their head stuck in the sand. The rest moo right along.

>>12963096
>a person who studied epistemology
>you're words

>>12963099

Then words have meaning because I assign meaning to them.

Checkmate, OP.

>>12962992
>>12962969

>>12962887
>We need more Americans like you

>>12962992
Actually, it wasn't the capitalist part of the post, it was the
>more "Americans" like you
which was what implied that he was American.

But then again everyone in this thread is trolling anyway.

>>12963112
Question wasn't directed at me but, I'll answer. I am perfectly aware that all of it is socially constructed but that in of itself shouldn't be the issue, per se.

The issue should be-- is the social construct serving all? And if not, who is it serving? And if we want it to serve all then what has to happen for it to do that?

I'm going on a bit of tangent here but you get my point. Yes, it is all socially constructed.

>>12963026
Are we reading the same thread or are you just being stupid?

We are talking about the meaning of words and why the mentally ill gentleman took this realization to heart and went postal on a bunch of people.

We assign meaning to things and that's what gives them life in our lives, our minds, our hearts etc. Language helps us organize what we observe, feel and experience. That is all I'm saying, really.

>>12962723
yes

it is still just a rock

what is a banana if words have no meaning?

>>12963139
Yeah they do and who said they didn't. The question here is that we 'assign' it. WE assign it. And are they biased? Yeah, hell they are. Why do you think cats are named differently in every language? Because we, with bias, assign meaning based on our experiences, our lives, from our own perspectives.

Anything wrong with that? Not intrinsically, no.

Words have a lot of meaning. More so then any gesture or action. They can be taken several ways and it's not always so much what is said in a conversation as what's not said can have even more meaning.

Stop being arm chair philosophers, words have a shit ton of meaning and layers and depth.

What a dumb thread. Full of dumb people such as
>>12963066
>>12963084
>>12962992
>>12962969
>>12962955
>>12962889
>>12962887
>>12962801
>>12962711
>>12962673
these.

What is property if slavery is murder?

>>12963152
>>12963181

samefag.png

Also, who cares if you're American or not?
The point is that you're a blind and willing cog in capitalist society, which is true if you're on 4chan since only capitalist countries have access to this site.

A government is a administrative bureaucracy.

>>12963237
It's still a rock, yes, but it may be interpreted differently by different people. For instance, a rock may mean something different to someone who lived in the middle of a rock quarry as opposed to someone who had never seen one (I'm stretching here as most people have seen a rock but you get my point).

Like cows are hamburger for us but to Indians they are sacred animals both see them as cows but the meaning goes beyond just labels. But again, still socially constructed by both.

philosophy majors are retards! who knew?

>Can you answer my nonsensical question if words have no meaning?

NO U MEANINGLEZ

that shooter in Arizona said OP's quote. I don't really follow the news anymore, but it's pretty easy to figure out what he was trying to communicate. look at the tone of the quote.

>WHAT IS GOVERNMENT IF
I'm pissed off at the government because
>WORDS HAVE NO MEANING
someone said something and did not follow through with it.
>=========================================
I am angry at a politician because they lied.
I expected better from my elected representatives whom I voted into office to represent my interests.


Whatever, crazy is crazy.

>>12963317

>>Intro to philosophy students are retards

There you go. Or possibly

>>Philosophy undergrads are retards

>>12963291
>The point is that you're a blind and willing cog in capitalist society, which is true if you're on 4chan since only capitalist countries have access to this site.

What is the alternative to being a cog in society? Greater men than you have questioned this. The only compelling arguments I've seen are those of the anarcho-communists like Berkman and those of the primitivists like Kaczynski.

Why is gold valuable? Is it not just (really) heavy metal?

If words have no meanings, I can decide the meaning

So government is now an animal which gives milk ( you can decide yourself the meaning of animal and milk)

Your essay is done, you are welcome

>>12963274
No one is saying that when WE assign meaning to things they are not labels/names/ideas that we ultimately hold dear.

Ever heard of 'those are fighting words"? Yeah, we assign words/ideas/objects etc meaning and then we give them power. I can tell you right now that if you called me an expletive in Russian I could give a shit. Now if you said something to me in English my ears might perk up but what I'm trying to say is beyond just 'names' or understanding languages. Our cultures and societies, our families help to give our cultural/social constructs life and therefore "they" become very near and dear to us. And we think they just 'are' instead of constructed by us.

No one said that just because we assigned meaning to something that we wouldn't take it to heart.

>>12963338

>>philosophy majors don't have good job prospects.

>>philosophy majors dropped a hundred grand on a major without good job prospects.

>>philosophy majors are retards.

>>12963347
Why is Sunn O))) drone? Is it not just (really) heavy metal?

>>12963347
EXACTLY what this whole thread is about.

About social constructs and the meaning we assign in our world. We gave gold meaning. Yes, it's a precious metal, to some degree, but we assigned meaning and we sustained this meaning, even to this day.

There are many other precious things in our world that are laid to rest because we either didn't assign a special meaning to them or the meaning was not sustained.

Yes, words have power but it is we who assign that power but it takes most of us to play along, so to speak--generally speaking

>>12963379
>As a mindless Capitalist drone I believe that anything that cannot be used in a quest towards money is useless.
>I am happy to waste my life striving to attain more of what I am told is valuable rather than define and discover value for myself.
>I am content to waste the one life I have to live without questioning the world around me.

Cool post, bro.
Enjoy your Lexus and 3bdr/2ba cookie cutter house in the suburbs.

Maybe if you're lucky your boss will give you a bonus and you can get that hot tub you always wanted.

>>12963420
>As a mindless Capitalist drone I believe that anything that cannot be used in a quest towards money is useless.

Before you spew this again, I want you to answer >>12963340

>>12963438
>What is the alternative to being a cog in society?

Thinking for yourself.
Making choices instead of following what society tells you to do.
Questioning everything and exploring the limits of your consciousness.

In the end you may decide for yourself that you want the same things that "everyone else" does - But if you do not question yourself and your motivations, you will never know if what you desire is what you truly want or simply what you are told to want.

>>12963438
>>12963340
>What is the alternative to being a cog in society?

The alternative is to create your own values and stop living by other people's standards. You don't need to be rich or famous to live a happy life, but unfortunately, some people cannot determine their own values and spend all their time chasing after a fictitious dream. Go to school, get a job, get married, bla bla bla, have kids, retire.
the deferred life plan

Q: What is government if words have no meaning?

A: Corgi sausage, internalize onion biscuit. Hammer ceramic and and beat cow it to as be are. Fuzz can rubber, green electron cockburn.

What kind of classes can I take to learn more about this sort of thing? What is this kind of thing even called?

>>12963460
>Thinking for yourself.

There are two components to my thought process: that which is natural (instinctive) and that which is influenced by society. What -is- thinking for myself? Is it being liberated from social influences? Because then I'm rendered to be like an infant. Is it controlling what influences me? Why is one influence more pure than another?

>Making choices instead of following what society tells you to do.

I follow my preferences determined by my instincts and social influence. Is making my own choices paradoxically double guessing my own choices that have been tainted by society?

>Questioning everything and exploring the limits of your consciousnes

Why should I? I'm perfectly content as a drone.

>>12963503
nihilism/existentialism

in loughner's case, ego death

his philosophy is something that a lot of people believe in, but to actually go and shoot people and not even be phased when the police come to your home, I think that's mostly a case of too much drugs