Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)19:56 No.18193029

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)19:56 No.18193029

Replies: >>18193527

>>18192914 (OP)

> why /pol/

Because there is no demand for one. Most people are so low-information that they can't even see anything wrong with the current system, or, if they do, they think it's fixable.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)19:57 No.18193073

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)19:57 No.18193073

Replies: >>18193236 >>18193839

Libertarianism transcends left or right: it's about minding you own goddamn business.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:01 No.18193236

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:01 No.18193236

Replies: >>18193607 >>18197211

>>18193073

I imagine that "Left Libertarians" typically are alright with government involvement in more areas, like the environment or education, than libertarians further right would be. Either one would be infinitely better than the current parties.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:03 No.18193329

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:03 No.18193329

Replies: >>18193362 >>18193392 >>18193498 >>18193665 >>18194357 >>18195740

Orwell was a conservative, people don't realise this. He only ever fought for better conditions for workers, he still loved England and it's traditions. He would weep at it's current state.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:03 No.18193362

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:03 No.18193362

Replies: >>18193546

>>18193329
Aldoux Huxley taught Orwell French, believe it or not

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:04 No.18193392

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:04 No.18193392

Replies: >>18193506

>>18193329

> people don't realise this

The more appropriate term would probably be "anti-authoritarian"

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:06 No.18193498

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:06 No.18193498

Replies: >>18193546

>>18193329

> He would weep at it's current state

In fairness, modern britfags do this too.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193506

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193506

Replies: >>18194357 >>18195740

>>18193392
He was both, he was incredibly conservative in an English sense. His socialism was purely derived from how fucked up condition for the poor were, he was never socially progressive.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193527

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193527

Replies: >>18193686

File: 1375229255260.png-(171 KB, 730x562, Our Guy Is Better!.png)

171 KB PNG

>>18193029
> they think it's fixable.

This is the key problem.

The Global Corporate Elite have gotten people so bamboozled that they actually believe
voting for the Reps / Dems is substantially different then voting for the Dems / Reps.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193546

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:07 No.18193546

>>18193362
Yes I knew that, both great men.
>>18193498
Yet they never do anything, it's infuriating.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:08 No.18193549

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:08 No.18193549

OP here,

I was talking about in America, FYI. The UK is a lost cause.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193603

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193603

Replies: >>18193711 >>18193960

>>18192914 (OP)
>Left: the idea that the government should take people's things and give them to who "deserves" them more
>Libertarian: the idea that the government should leave people alone

Yep, you're going to have to pick one.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193607

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193607

>>18193236

"Left" Libertarians would be supportive of the government having human rights and environmental restrictions on businesses. Possibly a countrywide flat tax for a single payer healthcare system.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193616

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193616

Im left libertarian.

I want the government to run certain servises like healthcare and education. But it is not there buisness what we can and cant do. Of cource I want laws to protect us but no to cencership etc

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193626

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:09 No.18193626

>>18192914 (OP)
>left libertarianism

what a joke

they're just even more self-righteous socialists

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:10 No.18193652

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:10 No.18193652

Replies: >>18193728 >>18193768

>>18192914 (OP)
ironically the left hates anything that isn't corporate sponsored.

They would smear any libertarian leaning leftist movement in an instant in a similar way they smeared Occupy

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:10 No.18193665

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:10 No.18193665

Replies: >>18193773 >>18196576

>>18193329

> try to imagine Orwell living in modern England
> he gets stabbed by some estate trash on his first day

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193686

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193686

>>18193527
This image could not be more false.

Republicans would never shake with their left hand!

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193711

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193711

Replies: >>18193783

>>18193603
Don't resort to brute think. Leftism is usually defined as anything in favour of social equality. Rightism is usually in favour of some kind of hierarchy. Centrism is reserved for those that view neither as particularly important.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193719

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:11 No.18193719

>>18192914 (OP)
>leftism
>solving anything

Nope. I don't care how you brand it, leftism is a cancer.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:12 No.18193728

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:12 No.18193728

Replies: >>18193979

>>18193652
Uhhh, the right are the party of corporate puppets anon. Get your shit straight.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193768

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193768

>>18193652
>leftists smeared occupy

toplel m8

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193773

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193773

>>18193665
He definitely would have seen multiculturalism and progressivism for the jokes that they have become.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193783

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:13 No.18193783

Replies: >>18194063

>>18193711
hierarchy is natural and unavoidable

right simply wants the government out. Left considers any hierarchy as muh sexism, racism, patriarchy

only exception is maybe restricting immigration, but our rights don't extend to non-citizens anyway

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:14 No.18193831

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:14 No.18193831

The furthest left I'll go as a libertarian is keeping public schools because without them I think the degenerates will just become more degenerate.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:14 No.18193839

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:14 No.18193839

File: 1375229697943.jpg-(17 KB, 500x276, 1374954527730.jpg)

17 KB JPG

>>18193073
And this is why the state of California, the largest voting bloc will never be Libertarian.

Californians love shoving their noses in other people's shit.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:18 No.18193960

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:18 No.18193960

Replies: >>18194050 >>18194065

>>18193603
>thinking property is a right and the concept of "owning" something has a divine, impartial meaning outside of your narrow cultural frame
>2013

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:19 No.18193979

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:19 No.18193979

Replies: >>18197298

File: 1375229962713.jpg-(472 KB, 800x4200, PVpFY.jpg)

472 KB JPG

>>18193728

do you honestly believe that the left isn't just as entrenched in big business as the right is?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194050

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194050

Replies: >>18194422

>>18193960
the meaning is pretty clear

you seriously don't think you should own what you do? You think someone should be able to use your laptop without your permission? Or borrow your car without asking? What if they don't give it back?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194063

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194063

Replies: >>18194095

>>18193783
>hierarchy is natural and unavoidable
That makes you possibly centre-right if you are libertarian.
>right simply wants the government out
Some do, some don't. Most republicans want more government to push christian values.
>Left considers any hierarchy as muh sexism, racism, patriarchy
What you have described is progressivism a narrow fraction of the left.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194065

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:21 No.18194065

>>18193960
>thinking otherwise, ever
>not being a slave

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:22 No.18194095

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:22 No.18194095

Replies: >>18194328

>>18194063
>Most republicans want more government to push christian values.

like what?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:23 No.18194149

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:23 No.18194149

Replies: >>18195056

>>18192914 (OP)
How are you going to destroy multiculturalism? Are you going to go around destroying people's cultures until there's only one left?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:26 No.18194270

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:26 No.18194270

Replies: >>18194357

Orwell was a socialist

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:27 No.18194328

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:27 No.18194328

>>18194095
Sorry, I meant some, you have people like Rick Santorum for example. And Bush was one of the biggest statists there was (Maybe not Christian values, but people on the right can be statists)

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:28 No.18194357

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:28 No.18194357

Replies: >>18195740

>>18194270
see
>>18193329
and
>>18193506

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:30 No.18194422

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:30 No.18194422

Replies: >>18194686

>>18194050
I don't own very much, but I accept that the things which I do "own", the rules which govern ownership are just ones which have been arrived at through chance, history and pragmatism.

It makes sense on a small scale local level to allow people to "have" some things, this ensures fairly efficient use of resources. It also makes sense to have a shared pool of resources which we allocate through some communal method, for things which it's more efficient/better to manage that way than in an ad-hoc way like schools, hospitals.

In no part of this thinking do you need to introduce some "right" to ownership.

I do awknowledge that the sort of ownership you think exists should be respected (minus the hurr durr let's not pay taxes), but mainly just because it is unfair/destabilising to change the rules of the game a lot whilst people are playing it.

But by that same argument, everyone is fully aware of taxes since we've been paying them since the dawn of time.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:30 No.18194429

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:30 No.18194429

The old ideas of the left are essentially the same as the new ideas of the right:

Keep government out of people's private lives.

Unfortunately, too many people just listen to what they should believe based on the news. Imagine a world in which classical political philosophy was taught at a high school level.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:36 No.18194686

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:36 No.18194686

>>18194422
acknowledge, fml

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:43 No.18194960

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:43 No.18194960

Replies: >>18195051 >>18195169

>>18192914 (OP)
So am I to understand that left libertarianism is pretty much libertarianism but with government controlled city works, roads, military, etc?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:45 No.18195051

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:45 No.18195051

Replies: >>18195244

>>18194960
>yfw we're living in Left Libertarianism RIGHT now

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:46 No.18195056

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:46 No.18195056

>>18194149
America used to be known as the melting pot

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:46 No.18195057

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:46 No.18195057

I would be all over a left-libertarian party.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:49 No.18195169

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:49 No.18195169

>>18194960
they're kinda like socialists. they claim they're libertarians and try to push for efficiency in government. they still look to government for all solutions.

Step 1: This policy is more efficient, it just costs a little more
Step 2: ???
Step 3: We're more libertarian now

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:50 No.18195244

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:50 No.18195244

Replies: >>18195452 >>18196400

>>18195051
If you're living in USA you're currently living in the diametric opposite of left-libertarianism, you have right wing economic policies associated with a deeply authoritarian government. Left-libertarianism would be things like higher taxes, gay marriage, socialised healthcare, more funding in education, no patriot act, rights for gays/trannies, legalised drugs. Basically Scandinavia I guess.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:53 No.18195347

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:53 No.18195347

Replies: >>18195438

>>18195119
wow this is retarded

wish you people would just get over it and worship Ron Paul like a normal person

Ron Paul doesn't stop you from living in a co-op and having gay orgies

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:55 No.18195438

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:55 No.18195438

Replies: >>18195517

>>18195347
Ron Paul:
>woop we get to smoke weed
>oh shit we also happened to massively increase social inequality and now I'm poor as dirt
>At least I'm "free", whilst I work my whole life for the "privelige" to own a house and not have to work every day.

>can't into economic slavery

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:56 No.18195446

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:56 No.18195446

Political ideology is irrelevant. If you want a libertarian government, you need to change the culture of your people in such a way that a libertarian government is the only one that can arise. Teach those around you how to think independently. Start a small business. Help your friends start their own.

Politics is just a distraction.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:56 No.18195452

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:56 No.18195452

>>18195244
>taking half our income
>probably banning "mean speach" against LGBTBBQ
>libertarian

nope

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)20:57 No.18195517

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)20:57 No.18195517

Replies: >>18195780

>>18195438
>whilst I work my whole life for the "privelige" to own a house

lol who the fuck do you think is going to buy a house for you?

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:00 No.18195633

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:00 No.18195633

Because America has rejected radical leftist politics. Thank the red scare.

Fandroid !p6ktXMpsfc
07/30/13(Tue)21:01 No.18195715

Fandroid !p6ktXMpsfc 07/30/13(Tue)21:01 No.18195715

>not just getting the bullshit out of the way and becoming an anarchist

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:02 No.18195740

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:02 No.18195740

Replies: >>18195891

>>18193329
>>18194357
>>18193506
>It is not possible for any thinking person to live in such a society as our own without wanting to change it. For perhaps ten years past I have had some grasp of the real nature of capitalist society. I have seen British imperialism at work in Burma, and I have seen something of the effects of poverty and unemployment in Britain. In so far as I have struggle against the system, it has been mainly by writing books which I hoped would influence the reading public. I shall continue to do that, of course, but at a moment like the present writing books is not enough. The tempo of events is quickening; the dangers which once seemed a generation distant are staring us in the face. One has got to be actively a Socialist, not merely sympathetic to Socialism, or one plays into the hands of our always-active enemies.

Orwell was a hard socialist.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:03 No.18195780

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:03 No.18195780

Replies: >>18196433

>>18195517
In a different political/economic state you wouldn't be choosing between bleeding a large percentage of your income to jewish landowners in rent and accumulating a massive amount of capital in order to buy.

Rent/house prices would be lower relative to your income, through moving one higher or the other lower.

Don't you think it's kind of shit how people born without a wealthy family or some sort of exceptional ability are basically born into a life where they work every day or starve to death/live on the streets, whilst other people control more money than anyone could ever need? All the "freedom" in the world is useless to you if you're disenfranchised economically. It's just freedom to be a serf or starve to death.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:06 No.18195891

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:06 No.18195891

>>18195740
I never said he wasn't.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:07 No.18195943

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:07 No.18195943

Replies: >>18196160 >>18196198

>hurr orwell would be a conservative today

stop trying to steal the left's icons because the right's icons are shit

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:09 No.18195992

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:09 No.18195992

Replies: >>18196121

>>18195119

> the only option are either allow people to opt entirely out of the system with no consequences or to compel people by force to do everything the government says

You could always allow people to opt out of the system (except for laws) and just not provide them with goverment services.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:12 No.18196121

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:12 No.18196121

>>18195992
You'd just get rich people not paying taxes and it'd collapse.

The real problem with that image is that it conflates libertarianism with the view that the government should completely renounce authority. In fact libertarianism as used in left-libertarianism is referring to "social libertarianism".

The sheer autism of trying to argue against a political ideology by playing word games instead of discussing policies is the most fundamental problem I guess.

>I support the green party
>Here is a flow chart which demonstrates why your party cannot truly be said to be ideologically pure green

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:14 No.18196160

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:14 No.18196160

>>18195943
Julius Evola
Ezra Pound
Oswald Spengler
Nietzsche
Lovecraft
>Still believing in the left and right dichotomy.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:15 No.18196198

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:15 No.18196198

Replies: >>18196343

File: 1375233312734.jpg-(83 KB, 969x1281, 635646765473.jpg)

83 KB JPG

>>18195943
>right's icons are shit

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:16 No.18196244

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:16 No.18196244

Replies: >>18196463

libertarianism is about freedom
leftism is about equality

combine them and you get a movement for freedom and equality at the same time.

"but anon!", you cry. "I thought to get equality you had to restrict freedom!"

not so. Firstly it is entirely possible to have all the liberties of speech, conscience, etc and still have government intervention in the economy (economic stimulus in a recession and what not).

Secondly, there are ways of achieving equality without invoking the state at all. This is more difficult, because it requires cooperation and education rather than legislative fiat, but it can be done. Trade unions can collectively bargain to improve working conditions, mutual aid societies can provide members with cheap insurance, neighbourhood watch groups can provide local defense.

Worker cooperatives can provide work at fair wages and a democratic system of management.

Left libertarians and similar saw state socialism make one massive mistake: equating the state with the people. Free associations at a local level allow the individual and the community far more power.

Comparison:

State Socialism:
state-controlled distribution to enforce equality
repression of liberties
repression of worker initiative

Liberal Capitalism:
Limited state-controlled redistribution
protected liberties
repression of worker initiative

Left Libertarianism:
State provides limited to no redistribution
Mutual societies provide equality
protected liberties
worker initiative a necessity

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:19 No.18196343

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:19 No.18196343

Replies: >>18196402 >>18196643

File: 1375233572993.jpg-(97 KB, 400x492, 1316178926037.jpg)

97 KB JPG

>>18196198
Lovecraft was only ostensibly right on race relations

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:21 No.18196400

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:21 No.18196400

>>18195244
>higher taxes
Fucking dropped.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:21 No.18196402

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:21 No.18196402

Replies: >>18196499

>>18196343
That comment implies neither a left or right inclination. Remember this is the republican party of Lincoln he is talking about, he was very traditional.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:22 No.18196433

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:22 No.18196433

>>18195780
>in fantasy land, houses would be cheap

ok

no I don't. I'm going to get an education and make 100k

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:22 No.18196463

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:22 No.18196463

>>18196244

But what is the state but the people. The state only exists if enough people acknowledge its existence.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:23 No.18196499

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:23 No.18196499

>>18196402
Sorry he was a Wilsonian progressive Democrat

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:26 No.18196576

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:26 No.18196576

>>18193665

>George stepped out of the time machine, into the year 2013
>He took stock of his surroundings; a street, with shops on either side of the road, each underneath a gaudy, plastic sign
>George walked along the pavement, gazing in wonder at the marvels around him
>Three black teenagers, each nearly 7 feet tall, walked up to him
>BRUV CAN U GO IN DAT SHOP AN GET ME SERVED FOR BOOZE AND DAT I WILL GIVE U CASH AN U CAN KEEP CHANGE WOT U RECK MATE WOT U RECK
>George took a step back, in shock
>The boys began to laugh
>U SUM KIND OF PUFFTA MATE OR WOT OR DO U JUS HATE BLACK KIDS HAHAHA
>George shook his head, scared
>The other boys started laughing, and shaking their hands, with confusing signage
>E FUCKIN HATES US DUNT HE LADS HAHAHA HA HAHA
>They looked at each other, tears in their eyes
>HAHAHAHA HA HA HAHAHA
>George fixes his tie, and begins to speak
>"Excuse me, gentlemen..."
>Too late
>He had already been stabbed
>George fell to the floor, and crimson spilled out onto the harsh concrete ground
>The three boys creased with laughter, and looked up at a CCTV camera
>They smiled at it, and waved
>CHECK US OUT WE AR ON BIG BRUVVA HAHAHAA NIGGA THIS AINT THE DIARY ROOM
>George slumped to the floor, and held his breath, trying anything he could to quicken the death that he knew was merely seconds away

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:27 No.18196643

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:27 No.18196643

Replies: >>18197064

>>18196343
He hated the republicans because they were sellouts. Have you even read any of his letters? Most leftists would regard him as a hardcore "fascist" and therefore on the right

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:38 No.18197064

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:38 No.18197064

>>18196643
Modern pc leftists mostly criticize Lovecraft for being racially insensitive

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:41 No.18197211

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:41 No.18197211

>>18193236
Libertarianism supports less government in everything, government is inherently authoritarian. That's true of left or right versions.

Anonymous
07/30/13(Tue)21:43 No.18197298

Anonymous 07/30/13(Tue)21:43 No.18197298

>>18193979
The left are not, because there is no left.