bump

No.

>forgetting about those little things called small businesses

>>877818
They'd be fine.

That's fucking retarded and it will cause inflation.
Minimum wage should be pegged to the local poverty line.

Because unemployment is way too low right now. We need to do something about that.

The minimum wage should be abolished for agricultural and manufacturing jobs.

Discuss

Even if it was 10/hr. uneducated people would still overspend on trivial things and then complain about how they can't afford essentials, and then demand that it be even higher.

>>877829
The only jobs getting axed are the useless mexican jobs anyway. In the longer run, it would lower unemployment.

>>877832
But it is, haven't you gone to The Home Depot?

The minimum wage should be $3.37 an hour, from your pic.

Average prices would go down, people are still capable of being promoted to higher prices.

Australia is doing fine with $20/hour minimum wage

>>877848
>Average prices would go down

No

>>877848

This is what retards actually believe

Why not 20 dollars an hour? What about 50? 100 dollars an hour? Why should we stop at 10 dollars?

>>877857
Yes

Do you think there is a magical price of goods and it will never go down? You certainly think there is a magical price of work ethic.

>>877866
>Why should we stop at 10 dollars?

It would follow inflation

Federal minimum wage is pointless for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is that despite using the same currency $5, $10, $15 has a completely different purchasing power in different parts of the country. This forced distortion will cause problems with too much labor being focused in some areas and not enough in others. I

>>877874

Yes, the price of oil will magically go down as global consumption increases if we only lowered the minimum wage to $3.37

>>877863
Nice argument, to insult instead of try to disprove.

No, retards think the price of goods would stay the same even though the average minimum wage would go down

>I need more money
>No I won't work more hours
>make others pay for it at gunpoint under law.

>>877885
People wouldn't be able to afford cars.... this would also solve "global warming."

Good idea, Anon.

You guys know there are plenty of jobs above that right now, right? You just need to move to Alabama and pick crops. But Americans won't do that.

>>877875
we should lower minimum wage then, to combat inflation, why are you wanting to increase it to $10? Are you some crazy inflationist?

>>877895
>Pay workers a pittance even though their labor is worth more
>Hoard the rest of the money for yourself

>>877910
You can't combat inflation.

>>877885
Oh no the price of oil will go down, we better not lower the minimum wage?!

The fuck?

>>877894

It would leave more room for the businesses to capitalize and make a profit at the expense of the laborer. It would leave more room for the exploitation of the workers and the market squeezing profits from an underpaid workforce and over charging the consumer.

>>877826
Sure they would, but the people they lay off wouldn't

>>877928
Are corporations now mafia's? You can't overcharge what someone doesn't have. That's how riots start.

>>877924
Then why want minimum wage increased?

>>877928
>underpaid workforce
>over-charging the consumer

Clearly you slept through llaissez-faire economics.

>>877912
>Offer anyone money for their time and labour
>They have the freedom to choose if they would accept my offer
>I am a criminal for offering too little

>>877928
Meanwhile the consumer is thrown into ever larger piles of debt trying to sustain an average lifestyle.

Great job corporate america.

>>877912
>labor
>worth

How does one determine this?
More importantly: who?

>>877950
>I am a criminal for offering too little

No, the whole system is inefficient when you and other employers offer too little.

>>877954
>average lifestyle
Hah!
>implying anyone in america lives an average lifestyle in comparison to the rest of the planet.

Where I come from, we call that delusional.

>>877971
Who gets to decide what is too little? It's called supply and demand.

>>877984
You can't compare with the rest of the planet like that and you know it.

>>877984

Oh boy here we go again, the call center guy is here

>>877971
Clearly not... as the numbers are not in your favor.

I bet if you brought up numbers - minimum wage and economic growth, they would correlate.
Higher minimum wage = more stagnant economic growth.

>>877987
It's not.

>>877987
Explain to me why not?

Throwing out the point is unfortunately not a logical means of arguing.

let's allow the companies to decide what's best

i'm sure american workers can somehow survive on $1/hr

So if minimum wage was raised to $10.00.. hmm.


According to >>877840, unemployment would lower. This is absolute bullshit, because many jobs that are being lost are actually being outsourced, as we all should know by now. Companies will -not- pay minimum wage if they can easily pay someone in another country pennies on the dollar for a day's work.

Plus, raising min. wage would increase inflation. Cost of living would be driven upwards even in areas where there is already a high cost. Benefits would decrease because employers wouldn't be able to pay for them. More people would be uninsured- those same people on the $10 minimum wage would likely fall deep into debt if some accident were to happen- and by the way, safety may be compromised in the workplace as a result, thus increasing the risk of injury.

Instead of raising minimum wage, lower taxation on personal income and raise it on business tax by a few percent. Cut out the tax cuts corporations are receiving and stop giving money to bail out those who are outsourcing jobs anyway.

>>878007
>Fuck year - it's not.
>obvious troll detected

>>878007
>offer people 50 cents for an hour of hard labour
>no one accepts
>okay.jpg I guess ill raise the wage until someone does
>Once it's high enough for someone they accept

Yeah totally is not

>>877928

Example:
>China
>No minimum wage
>Workers have shit conditions (industrial age all over again)
>Get paid next to nothing
>Capitalists horde most of the profit

>>877954
Average lifestyle of buying useless shit, hey wait a second, less buying useless shit means corporations have less money

Why do you hate lower minimum wage?

Oh yeah, because supply and demand doesn't exist in your world and you think there are fixed prices of goods

>hurr durr lets abolish minimum wage so we can become like china, working 7 days a week for a dollar a day. Of course i won't be affected i am still in college studying faggot engineering

>>878013
America is amongst the richest countries in the world, if you want to compare with other countries compare with Britain, Germany or other similar ones.

Saying that "some nigger somewhere is starving so be happy with what little you have" is invalid.

Money serves as a store of labor. At first glance it seems like a great idea to make a standard that everyone gets a certain minimum amount for their hours of labor, but the problem is that humans values different things differently. Even on the basic necessities like food and water we have different opinions on what each item is worth. Similarly we have different opinions on how much a job is worth. It's up to each individual to negotiate the best deal for themselves or to join union to make the decisions for them if they can't.

>>878020
>because many jobs that are being lost are actually being outsourced

The jobs that are being outsourced aren't minimum wage jobs.

It should also be made harder to outsource jobs however. Tariffs can help this but rising fuel costs over the next couple of years will probably do most of the work.

Unions should have enough power to negotiate a fair wage with employers.

>>877849
yeah and a video game cost 100 fucking dollars!!!

>>878027
Interesting, as over the past ten years 2000-2010, China's GDP has grown around 104% on average.

>>878027
Safety and pay are different things.

Why do you want sweat shop workers making lots of money? That will fuck up the economy with inflation.

The factories in China are efficient, none of the workers are forced to work there.

>>878078

Prob not Per Capita, I'm sure it has to do with all the companies moving to China.For cheaper labor.

>>878079

>none of the workers are forced to work there.

wage slavery? what's that?

>>878095
Uh... nope, looks like it has grown at about the same exponential rate...

http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&idim=country
:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=china+gdp+per+capita

>>878079

But the HAVE to. How else are they going to survive?

>>878118
What the fuck are you talking about.

If they accepted jobs at minimum wage, in order for big retailers and grocers to survive, they would have to produce products that the "wage slaves" could afford in order to even exist.

Therefore, realistically, prices should normalize. They may not have flashy things like iPads and 60" screen TVs, but they definitely will get the necessities.

I live in BC, we just got minimum wage raised to like $9.75 or some shit.
>implying I even have a job

>>878112

GDP is not a measure of personal income or standard of living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product

>>878112
>>878078


Nominal or per capita GDP growth doesn't mean that the average person is an wealthier. GDP is just the market value of all goods produced in a country, not who profits off of those goods.

Dependents and Independents should have different levels of minimum wage.

>>878108
Wage slavery is a sensationalist idea that is brought upon from greedy and self-centered people who want EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD and have no fucking clue what 'basic necessities' is.

But minimum wage lowers the average wage

>>878118
The only ones working there are clueless idiots who are already from poor farming families, WHO NEVER HAD MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
How are they going to survive? Not working in a sweat shop for starters. Again, they aren't forced to work there.

>>878144
>>878145
Nice job, let's spin the argument in your favor...

Or not - there is no conclusive indicator of standard of living. The term "standard of living" is a total fucking illogical fallacy on it's own.

>>878148

i'm sure those workers in the industrial revolution were being greedy and self-centered when they wanted better working conditions and higher wages instead of the usual $2/hr

But let me guess what you're going to say:
>But they doin uh lot beder den the Afrikans so dey shouldnt kumplain

>>878163

>have fallacious argument thoroughly refuted

>YEA WELL THE ARGUMENT WAS DUMB ANYWAY

>>878148

>>878177
You should be paid based on your worth ethic, good workers get promotions, which is higher pay, and shitty workers get fired. There should be no minimum wage.

>>878178
There was no argument to begin with. There is absolutely no way to logically prove "standard of living."

Those with intelligence can grasp conclusions from GDP/GDP-PC that would show increases in standard of living.

>>878194
>There was no argument to begin with

>>878177
Better working conditions and higher wages are two completely separate things.

I'm sure if they had better working conditions, they may not have complained as much about the pay.

>>878134
Is a car a necessity? A house?

>>878228

According to him, those are privileges

>>878215
You sound a little mad, bro.

Why not try typing out something? Or are you afraid that going beyond single-sentence jabs that have nothing to do with the discussion will actually show your complete ignorance regarding the subject at hand?

>>878027

>bringing up China, a state that is fascist at best and totalitarian at worst

Of course, it all makes sense now. I tried to power my wooden boat with coal on an open flame but the whole boat burned down. Clearly I could never power a boat with coal. What, you say that was because I had a wooden boat? Well what about this wooden boat? It burned down as well! Wait, you say that boat had the same problem? You say this boat with a controlled furnace doesn't burn down? But the wooden one did burn down! HOW CAN YOU SAY IT WON'T BURN DOWN WHEN THE WOODEN ONE DID! YOU'RE JUST FUCKING IGNORANT

Thats what you sound like.

>>878228
>>878239

Correct, a car and a house are not necessities.

I have a friend who has neither and is currently working diligently to "pull himself up from his bootstraps."

He isn't dead, so how are they necessities again?

>>878247
>You sound a little mad, bro.
>Didn't type anything

Your idiocy leaves me speechless sometimes.

>>878264
Keep it coming.

>>878247

That wasn't me but whatever.

>There is absolutely no way to logically prove "standard of living."

>Those with intelligence can grasp conclusions from GDP/GDP-PC that would show increases in standard of living.

These two sentences contradict each other.

>>878253

Well I believe a car isn't a necessity, but a house should be.

>>878228
A house yes. A car? It depends if you live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere or not. If you live in New York or London I doubt you'd even want to own a car.
>>878239
According to you they are not

>>878253
This is not an austerity contest.

It's more the question of, what would you afford your fellow man?

>>878251

Also, Chinese workers flock to the free areas of China to work as opposed to state controlled areas.

There are large amounts of illegal immigrants to Hong Kong and immigrants to the "special economic zones" because conditions are actually better there. Unless you think they are all ignorant and scrambling to be exploited.

>wave slavery
This is an economic fallacy brought up by pure ignorance. If you get paid 20 dollars an hour, but you produce 80 dollars of work, that does not mean you are being swindled by 60 dollars. That 60 dollars goes to supplies, R&D, stock, accounts payable, utilities, management, et cetera. Also, you are being paid more than what you would produce if you weren't employed. Let's say you're digging a hole with a shovel and you manage to dig one hole a day. Now if I give you a device to get you to dig 10 holes a day, but I demand that I get the profit from 8 holes, then I am not cheating you. I am giving you more than you could ever have produced and we are both happy in that scenario. If I weren't paying what you were worth, then you'd just dig holes with your shovel.

Wage slavery is nonsense dreamed up by people that have no idea how businesses work and the economy work. Get real, kids.

>>878307
>If you get paid 20 dollars an hour, but you produce 80 dollars of work, that does not mean you are being swindled by 60 dollars.

That's not what wage slavery is.

I'm against it because I don't like using violence.

>>878318
Too bad, in real life we all use violence as much as we can get away with it.

>>878307

what are you talking about
Wage slavery refers to a situation where a person's entire livelihood depends on wages.

>>878284
A house?

What about an apartment?
Can we use the term shelter, if that is what we are referring to?

>>878333
>Wage slavery refers to a situation where a person's entire livelihood depends on wages.

When has this not applied? 100+ years ago?

If it was prices would go up across the board. People would have more money to buy crap, supply and demand, crap gets more expensive. The issue is the overall affordability of goods and services, not the wages themselves.

>>878343
>When has this not applied?

Most of the 20th century, wherein the middle class had enough financial freedom to, well, become the middle class.

>>878359
But still, if they did not have a wage, then they'd be in trouble.

>>878336
If you want to get technical, call it a shelter.

Whether you own an apartment or a mansion, it's your shelter, your home.

>>878359

So during most of the 20th century people didn't have to work for a wage, and they still survived and possibly thrived?

Are you referring to social programs or something?

>>878363
We have the wage now

And we are in trouble


So?

>>878359
Define:
>to, well, become the middle class
please

>>878379
During most of the 20th century most people were able to save up money as well as have enough left over to spend on luxuries.

Make everyone able to produce $10 of worth per hour

And enforce it by law

good luck with that

>>878392
Is it possible that the idea of luxuries has now moved into a "necessity?"

I calculate that anyone on minimum wage today could easily afford most living costs with minimal luxuries.

>>878380

What does that mean? That didn't answer his question. The people back then worked for wages too, or otherwise were self-employed but still needed to make goods/money to survive. There hasn't been a point in history where people just didn't need to work for money and they survived.

Unless you talk about free riders in a communist or socialist country, but in effect they are literally participating in slavery because nothing is free. If they're getting food from a state program somebody had to work for that food, and this person isn't working to compensate them for the food. He is just taking it because the state will give it to him for being poor. In this case the person who made the food was enslaved by the poor person through proxy of the state.

>>878405
You want people to be able to spend. Money needs to keep flowing, not aggregate near the top. If their wages are tiny and their debts huge this cannot happen.

>>878394
$10 is not a lot of money.

>>878442
>$10 is not a lot of money
Why am I even listening to you?

>>878392

People can still save money, even though we actually live in systematically contrived inflation of prices because "IT HELPS DEM AGGREGATE DEMANDS"

Me and my destitute college friends can pay rent, feed ourselves and save money for luxuries. Unless you're talking about foreigners living under despotism and other terrible conditions Americans are in a significant state of luxury. The entire establishment economic community of the United States thinks that the only way the country can function is if everybody is goaded into buying luxurious crap.

We buy frivolous crap all the time. If you have a problem with savings you should take it up with the banking cartels that run the Federal Reserve and monetary policy. They're the ones that incentivize americans to spend rather than save.

Those who are denying that wage slavery exists are burying their heads in the sand. Wage slavery is very real- those who live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to put food on the table would like to know when they won't need to worry about those things and can get a better job, if your theory is true.

>>878442
Money does not need to "flow". People need to put their resources into productive practices and businesses.

>>878496
>those who live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to put food on the table would like to know when they won't need to worry

This is never going to happen. There will ALWAYS be a group of people like this. In fact, it is VERY healthy for the economy for it to exist as well.

The lack of information in this thread is disturbing. So hypothetically we raise the minimum wage to 10 dollars an hour. At McDonalds I am now paying my employees 2 dollars more than I was. That means for every 4 employees I am employing I am now paying for a 5th does not exist. For every 8 employees a 2nd, etc.. To combat this and remain profitable I now raise the price of my hamburgers by 50 cents each. But now my managers are complaining that they are geting paid the same as the fry cook, SO I have to give them a raise by 2 dollars an hour. Now I have to raise my hamburger prices by another whole dollar. And slowly incomes must increase across the board. Now this would happen to every business from grocry stores to electronic stores and so forth. Now a gallon of gas is 5 dollars a gallon thanks to inceased trucker, attendant, etc.. wages. On the commodities market this means it takes more money to buy gas. Essentially, the dollar to goods decreases, and inadvertently other currencies value rises. tl;dr GG You derped our economy.

>>878491
>you should take it up with the banking cartels that run the Federal Reserve and monetary policy

No, you should take it up with congress who refuses to act on the matter. Ultimately only a law can fix it, as corporations will keep on paying their lowest workers the lowest amount possible.

>>878522
Thanks for typing all of that out.

/endthread

>>878496

The term "wage slavery" is totally bereft of any meaning though because if you define it as you have then it is just saying "poverty". Voluntary work in a free society is not slavery. It just isn't.

Unless you are enslaved to your biological processes. I'm a slave to my metabolism, it requires I constantly eat to sustain my health. What am I going to do, petition god and the congress to end my condition or otherwise provide me with food till death? I mean I want freedom god-damnit, I deserve to be totally provided for or if possible freed from my mortal weakness.

>>878522
That or more jobs will be outsourced to other nations. In that case, you still get the low prices, but people without education and skills cannot find jobs.

>>878534
>median annual family income chart
>sitting at around 55-60k/yr
>people complaining

>mfw

>>878543
Hi, have you considered speaking with the government to get onto their economic advisory committee?

You may have just solved the country's problems.

>>878534

Oh, it's "I'll quote a sentence, take it in my own context and use it to enforce my position" time again is it?

Well I'm off to play with my dog and drink strong wine. It's 2:40 after all.

>>878522
>only paying the manager $10

lol america, that's just sad

>>878534
>WE JUST NEED TO PASS THIS ONE LAW!
You don't understand, do you. Would you mind being paid 3 dollars an hour if you could buy a house for 20,000 and a new car for 2000 dollars? Would you mind a 3 dollar per hour job if gas was only 30 cents a gallon and a gallon of milk was less than a dollar? Raising the minimum wage will either make prices go up or outsource jobs to other nations like it already has. Only buy removing these artificially low interest rates and allowing the economy to restabalize will you start to see a higher standard of living. Money is a means, not an ends and what ultimately matters is how much stuff you can get with that money. Please get to our level, please.

>>878569
>paying a manager of a fast food restaurant more than $10 an hour

I don't know what country you come from but your country is fucking retarded if they pay more.

>>878564
The minimum wage isn't the biggest problem though. There are work environment codes, taxes, shitty standards set up by government committees, et cetera. While the minimum wage certainly does not help anyone, it is not the biggest problem at the moment.

>>878597
Right, but the challenge is getting them to accept that.

>>878577
Prices have gone up without the minimum wage doing the same.

If we account for inflation.
Minimum wage should actually be $16.50

The more you know.

>>878609
We can't teach people right when they've been indoctrinated by wrong. We'll just have to wait until hyper inflation, or until Ron Paul gets elected and then people will eagerly listen to the truth.

>>878594
I'm a lowly assembly worker through a temp agency and I make $25 an hour.

Hell, floor staff at McDonalds probably make a bit more than I do.

You know who makes $10 an hour here? The underage.

>>878616
That is thanks to inflation, courtesy of the Federal Reserve. More bank notes enter the money supply and you see the price of goods and services rising, unless they are artificially brought to a low level. Inflation is a tax in the sense that everyone that holds US Dollars has to pay it with their purchasing power.

>>878331
>we all

Correction: You and everyone you know.

>>878660
>That is thanks to inflation
Yes
>courtesy of the Federal Reserve
No
>Inflation is a tax
No

Monetary easing is healthy. America's troubles come from congress, not the Fed.

>>878677
>Fed prints more money
>inflation rises
>NOT THE FED'S PROBLEM, GAIZ

>>878693
Inflation is fine. It's around 3%.

>>878677

If you had 12,000,000.00 in 1968 it would be worth only 3,000,000.00 today.

How is this not a tax?

>>878711
Because it's not levied on you.

If you were dumb enough not to put your money to work you are part of the problem.

>>878711

>hold $12MM in cash for 43 years

>>878677
The dollar has lost 95% (98% now?) of its purchasing power and it's not because congress was dicking around with issues of welfare (well not directly). The Federal Reserve has printed notes, loaned it to foreign banks and nations and to our country. They have flooded markets with fake money, thus giving the illusion that the market is experiencing real growth when it is all an illusion. Resources are wasted on this false growth and the bubble pops. This is the Austrian Business Cycle at work, courtesy of the Federal Reserve. Congress certainly has a role to play with it seeing as they constantly cry for more money, which the Federal Reserve is not at all reluctant to give. However, congress isn't the direct cause behind inflation.

>>878697
According to CPI - this is correct over the past 10 years.

Mandate an annual salary of $250,000/yr. Everybody will be the 1%

Move to Canada.
>Check Canada minimum wage
>Shit Brix

>>878731

>However, congress isn't the direct cause behind inflation.

Considering Congress is the only entity that can add net financial assets to the private sector, yes, yes it is.

>>878731
>fake money
No such thing, unless you're thinking of counterfeit money.
>Austrian Business Cycle
Discredited.

Again, inflation is fine, at the low level it's at it is quite beneficial.

>>878751
This. I'm planning on moving to Canada after I graduate. Though they are having some issues due to Harper being a dick with dreams of being pleasurably raped by America. So basically it's America 2.0 politically, but still better because
>national health care
>covers 75%
>insurance from job covers last 25%
>fuck yeah

Also, most Canadians are fucking awesome. Win-win.

>>878748
Interesting - comparing inflation via CPI, and average wages per person - utilizing data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics....

Inflation and wage increase rate are the exact same.
Nobody's argument here is valid.

>>878787

>Inflation and wage increase rate are the exact same.

That is exactly what this graph >>878534 says. Any more epiphanies you want to share?

>>878754
>Considering Congress is the only entity that can add net financial assets to the private sector, yes, yes it is.

Clearly you ignored the recent FED audit.

>>878757
I believe he meant fake money as in
>nothing backing it and it's just a number that the fed made up

>>878783
Good luck, man. I just received my German citizenship, and have been living there for a few years. Emigrating from the US has probably been the best decision I've ever made.

>>878810

>Clearly you ignored the recent FED audit.

The Fed can only use its cash to buy already existing financial assets. Meaning it swaps a bank's bonds for dollars, for instance. There is no net increase in financial assets in this transaction. An increase in the Fed's balance sheet means more of the private sector's financial assets are held as cash rather than other forms.

>>878808
Really? I must've missed the axis that showed inflation via CPI there.

>ohwait,it'snotthere

>mfw Minimum wage is $10/h here in Newfoundland ;)

>>878839

>in 2007 dollars

Is this really the level of your economics and finance knowledge?

>>878856
I'm still at a loss how that accounts for inflation over those time periods?

The minimum wage should be abolished, it makes it illegal for low skilled people to work.
If you wanna know why youth unemployment is so high, look no furher than the minimum wage law, because it basically bans young people from ever getting an entry level job.

In 1992, the minimum wage in New Jersey increased from $4.25 to $5.05 per hour (an 18.8% increase) while the adjacent state of Pennsylvania remained at $4.25. David Card and Alan Krueger gathered information on fast food restaurants in New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania in an attempt to see what effect this increase had on employment within New Jersey. Basic economic theory would have implied that relative employment should have decreased in New Jersey. Card and Krueger surveyed employers before the April 1992 New Jersey increase, and again in November–December 1992, asking managers for data on the full-time equivalent staff level of their restaurants both times.[61] Based on data from the employers' responses, the authors concluded that the increase in the minimum wage increased employment in the New Jersey restaurants

>>878886

"In 2007 dollars" means that they take the value of the dollar in 2007 as the base value. So if the average wage in 2007 was $50,000 and inflation was 2% and the average wage in 2008 was $51,000, wages from 2007-08 increased by 2% but inflation was also 2% so there was a 0% real increase in wages. Therefore you'd plot 2008's average wage as $50,000 and the line on the graph remains flat. Which the graph shows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money

>>878940
Wouldn't that be assuming that inflation was the sole variable dictating what the value of the dollar was?

>>878838
You do know what quantitative easing is, right?

>>878955

Yes. There are many ways to determine the value of the dollar, the CPI is only one of them. FYI, people who say the dollar has declined in value 98% since the Fed was instituted are using the CPI as well.

http://www.measuringworth.com/worthmeasures.php

>>877818
They might see marginally decreased profits. Big deal.

A business that can't pay its workers a living wage has no business existing.

>>878990
>A business that can't pay its workers a living wage has no business existing.

MY FACE WHEN this is the same person who "hates the 1%," and thinks corporations are evil.

>>878936

This literally doesn't mean anything, it's a correlation. Are you implying that raising the minimum wage increases emplyoment? So if I raised the minimum wage to 50 dollars an hour everyone would be employed?

This is like seeing someone fall from a 5 foot window and surviving, and extrapolating that falling from any given height would still result in survival with minimal injury.

>>878970

>You do know what quantitative easing is, right?

Funny you should say that since I just described what QE is in that post. QE is the Fed buying bonds and leaving the banks with cash that they don't make any money off of in the hopes that they turn around and lend that money out and stimulate the economy.

>>879012

What does the Fed buy the bonds with?

>>879009
It's more like seeing someone fall from a five foot window and deciding to see how high you could jump from without injury by increasing the distance incrementally. Except in this analogy the distance fallen is people's quality of life.

>>879024
A printing press.

>>878757

>inflation is fine

>Business cycle discredited

Well that terrific! I'm so convinced it's just mind blowing. Can we just make statements all the time and assume truth?

Nuclear fusion is feasible in 5 years and will end world hunger! Oh god, did I really just do that? Did I just end world hunger?

>>879003
>my face when many of those 1% corporations pay their lower workers just above living wage and bring in huge profits off their backs while often providing workplaces with little safety standards and their workers receive "great" benefit packages that are, in reality, quite poor compared to those who outrank them.

Yeah, not evil at all...

>>879052
*DUN DUN DUN*

>>879024

Money that it "prints." But that's not the point. $1,000 of bonds gets swapped for $1,000 in cash. There's no inflation because of this since there is the same amount of money in the private sector before the transaction and afterwards.

It's the same thing if you hold stocks. When you sell stocks that you own you swap one financial asset(stocks) for another (cash). You're not causing inflation because you do this.

>>879056
Sorry, man - it doesn't work both ways.

>>878936
>>878936

>2011
>using data to demonstrate an argument in favor of a certain economics/employment policy
>ISHYGDDT

Fucking idiot. EVERYONE knows that if you make employers pay more that they will lay off workers to compensate. I don't care about imperial evidence that would challenge my belief structure.

>>879060
Where does the Fed buy the bonds from? Not the treasury, but from Goldman Sachs. The Federal Reserve announces a round of Quantitative Easing and then Goldman Sachs gives the worst possible deal to the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve might give a thousand dollars for bonds, but they're only worth 200 dollars (hypothetical numbers). Guess who controls the bond purchases for the Federal Reserve? The New York branch of the Federal Reserve. And who might the president be for the New York branch? William C. Dudley. And guess what he did before being the president of the NY Federal Reserve. He was a partner at Goldman Sachs.

DUN DUN DUN!!!!!1ONE!

>>879050

It's really not, the implication here is they looked at the minimum wage law and employment in fast food restraunts and then decided that these two were the only important factors. We don't know anything else about the conditions of the experiment, there are hundreds of thousands of variables.

It would be more analogous to having someone fall from a 5 foot window and not be injured, and then fall from a 60 foot windo and not be injured but neglect to mention there is a giant net catching him. Thats why random empirical studies of economics are almost always suspect. The "Scientists" reside within the experiment, it's always a dirty experiment. There is just as much empirical evidence that minimum wage laws hurt employment.

There is empirical evidence that the USSR was better off than the USA, and some economists believed this was true.

>>879082
I'm not the guy you were posting to before, by the way. But seriously, saying that corporations aren't greedy, and therefore evil and don't care about their workers or anyone else is ignorant. They want money. They'll step on anyone to do it.

>sets a price floor
>surprised there is a surplus of unemployment
>dat rascally capitalism

>>879112
Haha, it's really sad how obvious it is that you have never been in the business world.

Judging by your attitude, you never will either.

>>879141
>Ad hominem
Great, let me know how burying your head in the sand goes then.

>>879211
You never had a logical point to begin with.

>>879211

Go anon! XD Way to show those conservatards wats, amirite!!?

>>879090

>gives the worst possible deal to the Federal Reserve

Wut?

> mfw anyone thinks I being a small business owner, is going to pay some nigger 10 bucks an hour OR MORE to empty the fucking trash or mop the floor.

> implying I owe anyone anything

> as if they aren't lucky just to have a job at all.

>>879262
Which quantitative easing is that from? QE1 or QE2?

>>879355
Looks like QE2 wrapped up in June, bro.

>>879412
A lot of QE2 came directly from the treasury, so this picture might be a bit misleading.

>>879420
>it might be a little misleading
it is misleading

>>879420
It says that QE2 was from November 2010 - June 2011.

Mind explaining to me how the dates of (9/9) and (9/21) fit into that?

>>879311

That's fine, just don't expect to ever have decent employees since you don't pay a living wage

Why not?

Cost-of-Living keeps increasing but the wage is not catching up with the reality. Do you know much much a single months rent in a one room apartment is?

>>879461

Work an actual 40 hours a week and you'll do fine. The low tier jobs that actually pay minimum wage are designed for people between the ages of 16-25 who are in school, going to college, and living with their parents.

Why not learn a skill and earn that 12-15 an hour wage. And if you're really a failure and lazy as fuck you can always look to the state and federal government to pay you twice that to do about the same amount of work you're used to.

Especially if you're black. It's like an instant in when applying for the gov.

>>879504

That depends on the location doesn't it. Here in baltimore city you can get a 1 bedroom apartment for $600 a month. And if you earn less than $1000 you're probably eligible for SSI and assistance anyway.

>>877790
>The minimum wage should be at least $10 an hour.
Why? What current minimum wage job is worth $10 an hour?
What makes you think that won't make the cost of everthing skyrocket?

>Federally mandated.
Why must the government get involved in every aspect of someone's life?

I worked for 9 dollars an hour over the summer, I certainly did not do 10 dollars worth of labor. Why would I expect to be payed more?

>>879420

How is it misleading. The Fed doesn't overpay.

http://www.newyorkfed.org/images/ml/ml-large2.gif

Why are we still having this discussion? The exponential increase in goods and services would outpace the 2 dollar raise, if anything it would make America poorer. Increasing the minimum wage drastically is only a politicians tool to gather sympathetic votes at the expense of the long term economy.
>Democrats.

>>879658

Maiden 2

>>879698

Maiden 3

$10/hr would boot a lot of people off of welfare and food stamps. And DAS RACIS!

>>879767
$10/hr would eliminate jobs for people on food stamps or welfare completely.

>>879091

Or rather, what it seems to imply is that there was a group of people who were willfully unemployed because 4.00USD/hr was too little for them. Otheriwise where did this "increased" employmen come from? It seems to be implied it came from the unemployed.

But if one is unemployed, especially willingly, how do they feed themselves? Cloth themselves? Shelter themselves? Through unemployment benefits.

So if a group of people were willingly unemployed until the minimum wage was raised to satisfy them, I guess the real implication is that it was preferrable to be unemployed rather than make $4/hr. So unemployment benefits were more rewarding than $4/hr.

Thtats just one interpretation.

>>879673
>The exponential increase in goods and services would outpace the 2 dollar raise, if anything it would make America poorer.

Except that's not what happens. It never has been.

You're not worth 10$/hour

>>877993
>first world problems

>>879787
>business isn't profitable enough to be able to afford a few dollars more, therefore we should refuse to help the less fortunate. There are Leer Jets and jars of caviar at stake!

>>879948
>implying that people who don't have the profit to afford said increase actually have Leer Jets or caviar at stake.

Every increase in the minimum wage comes with an increase in price. Period.

Firms need to cover their costs and as the cost of paying workers rises, that get's tacked onto their goods. This is literally, Day 2 MicroEc.

>>879968
menu costs,sticky prices etc You would learn this after you got out of your beginner shit economics classes

>>879948
Bottom up not top down economic changes. Not to mention cost of overhead.

>Ignoring companies like Ford that have 99 billion in debt but manage to stay ahead by paying off the interest on said debts.

Just because those execs are taking nice paychecks does not mean this wouldn't tip it over the edge.

>Forgetting how this would affect pension values.

Pensions are locked upon retirement for most people, goods and services prices would rise but many retired elderly would still be making the same amount of income.

>>879961
But that's what it's all about, isn't it? 1%er cronyism and a sycophantic mentality on the hill to reward their buddies, their buddies buddies, and their buddies sons. Republicans have theirs, so the rest of you can fend for yourselves.

What an ethos.

>>880013
Pic related

>>880013
I saw this response coming from a mile away. See >>880004
>Failing to understand basic economic 101 principles then pointing at rich people when it fails.

Glad the poor in America have wonderful people like you "backing them up".

>>880013
Hey buddy remember GE and them not paying their taxes via loopholes? Who has been raising corporate taxes? The Democrats. Who wrote those loopholes? The Democrats.
>That feel when you realize you've been played like a fiddle.

Pic related, Obama with his good buddy GE CEO Jeff Imelt.

>Demand higher taxes then write loopholes for your favorite donors, er, lobbyists.

>>879579
>That depends on the location doesn't it. Here in baltimore city you can get a 1 bedroom apartment for $600 a month.

That's if you are willing to get an apartment in a crime-ridden neighborhood of Baltimore.

>>877790
There should be no minimum wage laws. The government should just pay every individual $4500/month as long as you have a job.

>>880176
Wait, do you actually believe this?
Do you live in MD?

Same goes for here in Texas. I have a 1BR apartment for $750/mo that's super nice too.

>>879262
>>879698
>>879710
I don't get how these prices are supposed to prove to me that the Federal Reserve has not overpaid for the bonds. You mind telling me what these pictures mean?

>>880231
how these pictures*

>>880231
Also, have a look at this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-15/jpmorgan-posts-perfect-trading-record-for-three-quarters-of
-2010.html

These banks were able to make easy money perfectly because of the Federal Reserve. It's like a game of poker where the Federal Reserve tips off his hand and allows for the public to see what it's going to do.

Brazilfag here. I'm impressed with the cost of living in some areas of the US. US$ 750 is the average rent price for a really crappy apartment in Rio de Janeiro. Considering the minimum wage in Brazil is US$ 290, it's not a surprise many people live in slums.

Not saying poorfags in America shouldn't complain about their living standarts, but you should be aware it could be worse.

>>880231
Anyone mind giving me an explanation on why those graphs and numbers matter?

>>880339
Shit why so high Brazilfag?

>>880231

The Fed created a spin off company to hold the assets. Then the Fed loaned that company (in the case of Maiden I) $30B. The company then bought $30B of assets of of Bear Stearns. The proceeds from those purchased assets would be used to pay back the Fed's loan. The graph shows the market value of the assets versus the outstanding value of the loan. In all three cases the assets are worth more than the outstanding debt against them, meaning the Fed did overpay for the assets.

>>880344
Anyone?

>>880408

did not*

>>877790
no minimum wage...

it doesn't help at all with quality of life, it makes a barrier to entry when it comes to employment.

should a fucking bag boy who works 40 hours a week make $1600 a month before taxes?

>>880349
I can only say about Rio de Janeiro (because that's where I live). Here, the rent prices soared since it was announced that we're hosting the 2016 Olympic Games and the 2014 World Cup.

Other things cost much more than your average 1st world country becaue of heavey taxation. Not just on imported goods, but almost everything.

For instance, a Honda Civic (assembled in BRazil) costs about US$ 32,000 and a pair of Sennheiser HD 202 headphones that cost US$ 30 on Amazon.com costs at least US$ 100 on simillar brazilian sites.

>>880460
Thats what I hear. Where does all those taxes go?

>>880305

"He said the strategy keeps bears on the sidelines in the fixed- income markets."

The Fed undergoes QE and creates the perception that the Fed won't tolerate large and sustained downward movements in financial markets.

This creates the perception that if anything goes wrong then you can sell your shit to the Fed. This is also know as the Bernanke Put.

"It gives traders a buyer of last resort and confidence that they have an outlet if some goes wrong,”

So what you get is a sustained movement upwards in risk assets as the market sees the Fed as having it's back. Which results in easy money for traders.

>>880510
Taxes are very badly managed here, mostly due to widespread corruption and the bloated state of the government (for instance, a brazilian senator earns US$ 14,000 per month and have lots of privileges like state-sponsored cars, free gas, air tickets and, believe or not, drivers).

>>880618
Damn. Time to vote them out?

>>880626

This, my friend, is a near impossible task. Brazilian people approved a law which prohibited people previously convicted for crimes against the State (mainly whilte-collar crimes) last year (when we had presidential and senatorial elections), but the Supreme Court decided this law will apply only for the next elections. So, many corrupt people who were supposed to be out the elections managed to buy their way back to the government (people like Jader Barbalho, who robbed millions, if not billions of reais from SUDAM, a federal agency responsible for the development of the Northen states).

Corruption is deeply rooted in Brazil. Almost as corrupt as Russia, but the mob here isn't THAT strong. The really powerful people are big farmers and TV owners.

>>880767
Well, I hope you are fine. Keep rooting out corruption, and hopefully the people will learn from these lessons.

>Government regulation gone awry.

>>880208
How did you got your apartment so easy and cheap then?