Posting mode: Reply
[Return]
Name
E-mail
Subject
Comment
Verification
Get a new challenge Get an audio challengeGet a visual challenge Help
File
Password(Password used for file deletion)
  • Supported file types are: GIF, JPG, PNG
  • Maximum file size allowed is 3072 KB.
  • Images greater than 250x250 pixels will be thumbnailed.
  • Read the rules and FAQ before posting.
  • このサイトについて - 翻訳


  • New [old] boards: /r9k/ /pol/ /hc/, and introducing /diy/~

    In other news, posting issues should be resolved now. Some extra goodies arriving in a few weeks, so look for more improvements in early November!

    –Sigourney

    File : 1319719847.jpg-(213 KB, 640x454, OWS-student-loans.jpg)
    213 KB Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)08:50 No.85054  
    Why are OWS protestors complaining about the loans they used for college? No one forced them to take those loans. Should it not be their personal responsibility to see if they have the ability to repay their debt?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)08:54 No.85091
    >No one forced them to take those loans
    Yes they were, they were pushed into it by society. Name one time in your adolescence where you actually went against the status quo instead of little acts of rebellion to assert your individuality.

    College is so deeply ingrained into our culture that not only is it slowly becoming the only way to get any employment. The only realistic way to even get a college education for many people nowadays is through student loans.

    It's a fucked up system, and unfortunately it's probably not going away. College is how corporations figured out how to scam smart people.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)08:58 No.85110
    Because the contracts they sign are full of legalese that a guy with an MBA from Harvard could barely understand. It's like credit card companies that jack up your interest rates if they found out you've been looking to buy a car.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)08:58 No.85111
    It's mostly because student fees have doubled over the last 10 years without any kind of apparent reason or adequate explanation. The cost of education certainly hasn't become more expensive, indeed the vast pervasion of comprehensive IT systems has made it infinitely cheaper. People don't understand why people in 2000 left with maybe $50,000 worth of debt when they leave with maybe $100,000-$150,000 worth of debt - especially since scholarships and bursaries have failed to keep up, thereby de facto excluding poorer students from college.

    I think it's a gross oversimplification to present the OWS protestors as people who want the Gub'mint to pay their mortgage, student fees and bar tab. What most people want is an explanation as to why student fees have increased so exponentially and why productivity has exploded, but real wages remained stagnant. And really there is no other explanation other than greed. The companies, the universities, the corporations have profited from this, and people think that's unfair. Quite rightly, if I might say so myself.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:03 No.85145
    >>85091

    There are community colleges for a reason.
    >> Crom 10/27/11(Thu)09:05 No.85161
    >>85111

    > implying that "vast pervasion" isn't expensive as fuck.

    I love the way people seem to think digitalizing everything makes it cheaper.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:06 No.85172
         File1319720804.png-(92 KB, 209x262, 1276010917741.png)
    92 KB
    >>85091
    >the only way to get any employment.

    Complete bullshit. Are you one of those people that think that companies like McDonalds will only hire people with masters degrees? Fuck college degrees are useless unless you get a certain one like law or doctor.

    If you don't go the education route you go the experience route. It's not rocket science ya dick.
    >> Crom 10/27/11(Thu)09:08 No.85184
    >>85172

    > the experience route.

    Which is massively over-perscribed.

    Seriously, in some places you get entire populations going for the same jobs because they "need experience".
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:11 No.85214
    >>85172
    Aren't you making an argument for eugenics?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:12 No.85215
    Well personally I didn't go to college, because I went with the crowd that was afraid of getting in debt. I can't find a fucking job. Everyone wants easy to boss around immigrants, highschoolers and old folks in the jobs that will hire me.
    They like these people because they can be laid off easily without much fuss, so they will put up with more shit.
    Everything else is all college degrees or nothing, I lost a job as a fucking waiter to guy because he had a college degree.

    No one else is hiring.

    So I work as a fucking janitor.

    I've previously done manual labour, worked in warehouses, I had one job in an office, I've worked countless retail stores.


    I've worked so many jobs, I've either been forced into exploitative casual contracts which mean I can be fired whenever they like, or I've been downsized and they've hired immigrants to replace the workforce. One company I worked for shut down completely and moved to taiwan.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:13 No.85221
    Exactly

    If people irrationally take loans (as has been happening in recent decades) then the whole banking/finance industry fucks up eventually

    We'll have to reemphasize financial responsibility to contain crises like this in future, but the fact is these banks and institutions have an interest in ensuring they make as many loans as possible
    >> konakona !MpEqQLgus2 10/27/11(Thu)09:14 No.85226
         File1319721274.gif-(110 KB, 378x414, 1305451446885.gif)
    110 KB
    Higher education should be funded entirely by the state, or at least subsidised for the first year or something..

    or wait, the last year, so we don't have heaps of hopeless cunts turning up for a semester then dropping out
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:16 No.85244
    It's funny; the people I know who get advanced degrees in things like aerospace or chemical engineering don't seem to have trouble finding high-paying employment. The people I know who get advanced degrees in art history, psychology, etc. cant seem to find gainful employment that has anything to do with their field of study.

    Maybe people should try looking at what fields are in demand and paying well before enrolling in college. In stead of majoring in something you like and enjoy doing, major in something that will pay you a lot. If you have money, you can do whatever the fuck you want.

    I graduated with 85,000 in student loans and it was paid back in two years.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:17 No.85251
    >>85244

    Exactly. People should base their lives around things that don't interest them.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:18 No.85255
    >>85244
    Capitalist society pays only people satisfying lowest animal needs.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:18 No.85260
    Because the whole college loan part was haphazardly tossed in to get general support from college students
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:19 No.85272
    >>85091
    >Name one time in your adolescence where you actually went against the status quo instead of little acts of rebellion to assert your individuality.

    When I dropped out of high school at 15, spent the next 6 years doing lsd and smoking pot, by 17 I had a full time job and girlfriend who I lived with, and at 21, with zero high school education, I went and took the GED without even looking at a textbook or studying at all for it, completely cold, blew it away with flying colors, then went to college for a semester, dropped out, tried to join the military, was rejected for being color blind and spent the next decade half decade playing World of Warcraft, posting on 4chan, and reading history books before returning to college where I now have a 3.7 gpa without even trying and am well on my way to a double major in biology and anthropology.

    Your turn.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:22 No.85291
    >>85244

    Because that's a surefire way to burn out and end up stuck with a shit-load of debt for a degree you didn't want in a subject you don't enjoy. Not even mentioning that 3 years is a long time in economic terms and by the time you finish your degree, your master plan for employment could have crashed and burned in a crappy economy.

    The 'full-employability' of scientists, engineers and mathematicians is a fallacy - only the very top band of students will actually find employment in the relevant field. And often their narrow, subject specific skills leave them floundering in a market filled with creative, lateral-thinking, eloquent humanities students who dominate the corporate and business market (i.e. where most college graduates will be getting their jobs). Indeed, from my University, Chemists have a post-graduation unemployment rate of 11%, whilst Engineers are at 8%. Historians are at 3% and the lowest is Medicine at 2%. If you take a degree because it's in a 'useful' subject then you have fundamentally misunderstood the value and purpose of higher education.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:23 No.85299
    >>85244
    I guess it boils down to "we were born to work in the fields that the people with money want us to". I always wondered why grade schools don't already funnel people straight into the fields suffering from labor shortage, with the students not being given a choice.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:27 No.85324
    >>85251

    No, they should base their lives around being able to fucking support themselves without leeching off the rest of society. If they do it right, they'll have the time and money to do the things that interest them in their free time, like the rest of us do.

    You think most people love what they do for work? Or supporting your useless ass with ridiculously high taxes? Fucking self-entitled cunts.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:30 No.85341
    >>85324
    I'm not a communist, but this is what is wrong with capitalism - it treats people like all they are good for is working and getting money. Life should not be about that.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:31 No.85344
    >>85054
    i think it is mostly a few leftists truely complained and then the right wing shills got their teeth into it knowing it was something that pissed of a load of people that had lost their houses.they could use this to alienate the two group and hopefully defect the true message of OWS. Get the corporations out of our Goverments
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:32 No.85367
    >>85145
    I tried that route thinking I'd game the system, the name of the college is everything as well.

    Better name = Better chance at job = more expensive college
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:33 No.85369
    >>85324

    What a wonderful view on life. Your philosophy is truly one to behold. "Don't like your job? Fuck you. Nobody does. Do what interests you in the little time you have after work." It's like your sucking at your corporate masters' teet.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:34 No.85378
    >>85145
    Which are also socially discouraged
    >>85172
    There are many jobs that don't need a specific degree that still need some sort of degree. People don't necessarily know that it doesn't matter what degree you get.

    But you'll eventually hit a fucking wall in your upwards mobility if you never go to college.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:35 No.85387
    >>85172

    Degree holders have significantly lower unemployment while those with just a high school degree are the people who make up the largest portion of the unemployed. Your argument makes no sense.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:38 No.85407
    I have three degrees. I didn't get any money from my poor parents for college. I worked and took out loans, then when I got out and started my career I saved. I lived in a shitty apartment and didn't spend money on anything I didn't need. I focused on paying down debts and my college loans were paid off in five years.

    I have no sympathy for these apathetic fucks who think they are entitled to everything. Grow the fuck up and take responsibility for your lives you whiny bitches.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)09:38 No.85417
    >>85091
    >Name one time in your adolescence where you actually went against the status quo instead of little acts of rebellion to assert your individuality.
    How about that time I joined the army at 17, chose a specialty that had a cash bonus and the GI Bill and 4 years later went to college with my tuiton and fees paid for, a monthly stipend, money in the bank, and (with years of job experience) my pick of jobs at 3x minimum wage? Does that count?
    Or how about my oldest who both took online and Community College courses in her mid-teens and became a certified welder? She graduated college at 19 with an engineering degree and no debt and 2 years experience as a skilled tradesman.
    It isn't that hard to avoid debt, it is just harder than doing nothing.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:41 No.85435
    >>85369
    >>85341

    You know what? I wouldn't like toiling in the fields growing my own food either. Welcome to fucking reality you whiny little shits. Survival requires work.

    What makes you self-entitled little cunts so special that you think you should get a free ride through life?

    >Oh boohoo, I don't want to work. I want the government to pay me to sit in Starbucks and think about things with my degree in Ancient Sumerian Philosophy. It's just not fair that I should have to feed myself. I have rights.

    Fuck you. Seriously. Fuck you people. You are a blight on humanity. You contribute absolutely nothing to the society you supposedly want to better. You drain resources productive people could be using to better their own lives. You have absolutely no redeeming qualities outside of your potential as fertilizer, which will unfortunately never be exploited.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:41 No.85441
    I love how these idiot protesters are making themselves less employable by getting arrest records. Have fun with background checks morons.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:42 No.85449
    >>85369

    And what a naive view you have, wake up and smell reality dipshit. The world doesn't exist to ensure you can do whatever you want to do.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:42 No.85453
    >>85324

    One of the things they typically brand communism with is the lack of freedom in choosing your work. Now we know that both systems don't allow for any freedom of choice of employment.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:44 No.85470
         File1319723082.jpg-(3 KB, 126x126, 2zi6ibq.jpg)
    3 KB
    >>85417
    >joined the army
    >thinking you're going against the status quo
    nope.swf
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:45 No.85473
    >>85453

    You have plenty of choices in a capitalist system. Alas, leeching off the productive with the help of the government is not one of them. I guess you guys are lucky we don't live in a system like that.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:45 No.85475
    >>85111

    So why aren't they protesting universities?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:46 No.85483
         File1319723205.png-(121 KB, 254x273, 1230178777226.png)
    121 KB
    >>85473
    >Leeching off the productive with the help of the government
    Isn't that exactly what the banks that got bailed out did?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:47 No.85487
    >>85407

    You do realize that tuition has steadily risen year on year right? Student loan debt now exceeds credit card debt. This isn't because they're taking more classes or being lazy, it's because tuition has risen while employment rate has fallen. It's no fault of the student, in fact despite low national employment those with a bachelors still have an unemployment rate of about 4% yet they are still unable to pay off this debt.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:47 No.85494
    >>85475
    Universities are being protested by various groups on a regular basis. Nobody takes notice anymore.
    >> FAGGATRON_3000 !!PEF7BVl3fW0 10/27/11(Thu)09:47 No.85496
         File1319723276.png-(14 KB, 239x345, Capture.png)
    14 KB
    YOUR TUITION IN GOOD HANDS
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:48 No.85497
    >>85435

    >You contribute absolutely nothing to the society you supposedly want to better

    >Only the things that I approve of contribute to society

    Boy, sure is one hell of a victim complex you've got there.

    PROTIP: It isn't just science or the 'practical arts' that enriches the human race or contributes to our collective progress. If you were a well rounded and sensible human being with a college education (and from your baseless arguments, cheap cartoonish views of other disciplines and lack of knowledge of how the economy responds to graduates, I seriously doubt that), then you would know that education and knowledge are intrinsically valuable. These protesters don't want free money and a free job - their demands are nothing of the sort. If you were REALLY interested in what the OWS protesters wanted rather than forming your own, deluded, Fox-news induced apoplexy over this whole issue, then I refer you to this gentleman's previous post - >>85111
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)09:48 No.85503
    >>85184
    >over-perscribed
    WTF?

    >>85226
    Where does that money come from, the tooth fairy? The UK is cutting 'free' tuition because 'free' means 'someone else is paying for it'.

    >>85251
    I'm sorry, did no one tell you that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do? "Fair" describes the weather, not life. Learn to find joy in your duty and to gain happiness from honor.

    >>85255
    Which is why Lady GaGa is rich, right?

    >>85341
    I dislike laissez-faire capitalism, too, but it isn't 'out there', it is an attitude. And, at the bottom, there is truth beneath it. You may not like tilling the soil, but someone must.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:49 No.85505
    >>85483

    Yes. They're scum too.

    Don't mistake dislike of the dirty commies of OWS with love of the banks.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:49 No.85507
         File1319723360.jpg-(25 KB, 482x317, This Thread (3).jpg)
    25 KB
    >>85483

    Brace yourself for the shitfest.

    PROTIP: most of those using your common right-wing talking points are actually libertards. If they're listening to their libertarian overlords, they usually don't support the bank bailouts.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:50 No.85513
    Tuition in the U.S increased 8%+ across the board just this year alone.

    Predatory lending hasn't been this profitable since banks were giving out loans to Javier as he crawled out of the Rio Grande.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:50 No.85515
         File1319723425.jpg-(6 KB, 248x251, 1288829175003.jpg)
    6 KB
    >>85473

    >people who go to school and study for four years or more are lazy, unproductive and just want to leech off the govt.

    Good one
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:50 No.85516
         File1319723427.jpg-(19 KB, 320x213, tumblr_lj123nchOl1qis0s1o1_400.jpg)
    19 KB
    >mwf when living in a country where all eudcation is free
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:50 No.85517
    >>85503
    >Learn to find joy in your duty and to gain happiness from honor.

    No-one honors low paying jobs. No-one will ever say flipping burgers or cleaning school lockers is their duty.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:50 No.85519
    >>85475

    People protest colleges all the time.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:51 No.85524
    Paid for my degrees myself and or had grants and bursaries.

    Going to be leaving with a PhD and £0 debt. Feels good man.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:52 No.85525
    >>85244
    >>85244

    Agree with you , but there is a hitch in your giddy up...

    What i found interesting and meaningful when i was 18 is not exactly the same thing i see as interesting now as I'm starting the latter part of my life (recently married, bought a home a few years ago). I started going to community college for culinary arts (just so happens that one of the top culinary arts programs in the US was at the community college near me). What a dumb move. Cooking is a job, not a career, but at the time i loved the environment (booze, drugs, and horny waitresses).

    Fast forward and I'm still working for the same company, but we have since transitioned to a totally different industry that i love, and has great opportunity to become a career, not just a job.

    tl;dr - you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, and what you think you want to be is a dumb idea
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:52 No.85527
    >>85483
    Most employers leech off their workers, whether it's by paying them below minimum wage or only hiring them part time to deny them health insurance. There are so many ways, honestly.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:52 No.85531
         File1319723545.jpg-(11 KB, 323x246, 1308016703674.jpg)
    11 KB
    >>85516

    >yfw you've just initiated the "NO IT'S PAID BY THE THEFT THAT IS CALLED TAXATION!!!!!1111" talking point
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:53 No.85536
    >>85091

    >College is how leftists figured out how to scam smart people.

    fixed that

    The thought that everybody should be able to go to college, even though they are not that intellectually gifted and the degrees are pretty much worthless, is something advocated by leftists.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)09:53 No.85538
    >>85470
    See me with any student loan debt?

    >>85487
    And you know *why* it has risen, don't you? Government-secured student loans and suckers willing to take them on. No matter how ridiculous the degree or level of debt the banks got paid, the universities got rich, the government ensured there would be no loss and the only person on the hook was the fool who would take out a loan at any condition. Why WOULDN'T colleges keep increasing tuition for no reason?!
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:54 No.85546
    >>85531

    Theft IS taxation, govt only oprates on coercion. No one is coerced in a free market because they have freedom to choose whatever they want. No one forces you to buy things, except the govt, why would I submit myself to coercion, an-cap master race reporting in
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:54 No.85548
    >>85516
    >>85531

    Samefag digging in against the obvious refutal.

    Free does not exist. Someone else is paying for your education. For your sake, and the sake of your country, I hope you're studying something not completely worthless
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:56 No.85563
    >>85515
    People only value work they understand. If someone chooses a profession where the impact to society isn't immediately and directly observable, many will complain about how all the people in said profession are lazy leeches.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)09:56 No.85569
         File1319723804.jpg-(112 KB, 1280x960, yGfyU.jpg)
    112 KB
    It's kinda sad that you point the blame for falling in debt at the OWS protesters and gripe that they shouldn't of taken out that much debt when they were promised a good life if they did.

    But look at all the other debt in the world, credit card debt, foreclosed houses, gambling debts... At least these students are in debt for completing something and earning a degree from it which is more than 80% of 4chan can say.

    Shut the fuck up and go back to Fox News you fucking wagon burner.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)09:57 No.85574
    >>85515
    I went to college
    >10 am classes were too early for most people
    >why get a work study job when I can take out more loans? was the attitude of most
    >Most only went to the lectures that prep you for the quiz
    >Most did the minimum credits so it took 5-6 years to graduate
    >If they had spent the amount of time studying they had smoking weed, drinking, and whoring they would have had full-ride scholarships
    >Many dropped out because it was 'too hard'

    pull the other one
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)09:59 No.85593
    >>85517
    If it puts food on the table it is your fucking duty. And *you* and the people you know may not honor low-paying jobs, but plenty do. There is NO honest labor 'beneath' a person of good character. If you think a legal job is 'beneath' you it is an indictment of you, not the work.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:00 No.85601
    >>85538

    You have no idea what you're talking about, the rising tuition is a result of increased spending on the schools parts. They've increased spending on administrators, student support services, and they need to make up for reductions in government subsidies.

    "The main reason tuition has been rising faster than college costs is that colleges had to make up for reductions in the per-student subsidy state taxpayers sent colleges. In 2006, the last year for which Wellman had data, state taxpayers sent $7,078 per student to the big public research universities. That's $1,270 less (after accounting for inflation) than they sent in 2002."

    "Increases in spending were driven mostly by higher administration, maintenance, and student services costs. Public universities spent almost $4,000 per student per year on administration, support, and maintenance in 2006, up more than 13 percent, in real terms over 1995. And they spent another $1,200 a year on services such as counseling, which was up 23 percent. Meanwhile, they spent about $8,700 a year on classroom instruction for each student, up about 9 percent."

    http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2009/01/15/the-surprising-causes-of-those-college-tuition-h
    ikes

    http://www.highereducation.org/reports/affordability_supplement/affordability_1.shtml

    The main reason tuition has been increasing is increased spending by the school and decreased funding from the states.
    >> Red Spy !lulqEwsOZA 10/27/11(Thu)10:00 No.85604
    >Before OWS

    Right Winger: College loans are all a big scam.

    >After OWS

    RW: DURR NO ONE MAKES YOU TAKE LOANS

    >Before OWS

    RW: Where are the Jobs? Obama has clearly destroyed the economy.

    >After OWS

    RW: DURR WHY DONT THE HIPPIES GET JOBZ?

    Also,

    >No one made you take out those loans to get an education
    >Why didnt you get a real education instead of a stupid womens studies degree

    Does a real education cost less than a womans studies degree?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:00 No.85605
    >>85497

    Wait, I'm the one with the victim complex?

    I'm not the one sitting here crying about how I got tricked into going a quarter million dollars in debt to get a degree in women's studies. I'm not the one crying about how it's not fair that I might have to *gasp* work to feed myself and pay back my debts.

    You people are so utterly fucking deluded it is honestly hard to imagine that you actually believe the things that you do. I'd pity you, if you weren't a net drain on my own happiness.

    >education and knowledge are intrinsically valuable

    Yes, they are. Now get a job and educate yourself on your own fucking dime.

    Every dollar that get's spent on one of you self-entitled shits is a dollar, or more, that someone else could have spent on their own education. One that they could have chosen for themselves and paid for themselves.

    Fuck your education for the sake of education improves society justification bullshit. You want free stuff at the expense of others.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:03 No.85619
    >>85569

    >
    But look at all the other debt in the world, credit card debt, foreclosed houses, gambling debts... At least these students are in debt for completing something and earning a degree from it which is more than 80% of 4chan can say.

    I got a degree, but before I took that degree, I looked what the job prospects were, how much it would cost and whether it would be feasable to get that degree. Which is more than I can say of these protesters.

    And that whiny bitch in the picture isn't helping your cause any bit.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:03 No.85620
    >>85574

    Good to know you knew "most" of the people in your college. But it really doesn't make sense to me seeing as I have 8 and 9 AM classes which are packed...work study jobs/internships are always taken as soon as they're offered...plenty of people graduate every year and don't 'drop out'..basically your argument rests on supposedly anecdotal stereotypes. It's not convincing.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:04 No.85628
    >>85593

    In my country - we figured out a long time ago that the necessities for life: food, shelter, healthcare, education etc. were an inalienable right, just like your right to Free Speech or to Bear Arms.

    People here work jobs to fund their own personal interests, to pay for travel abroad, to participate in an active social life. We are one of the happiest, most developed countries in the world, with a powerful economy and a strong sense of national pride, born not from abstract and wasteful measures of military strength, but the knowledge that our country is an enlightened and caring place where no one is denied the right to enjoy their life.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:04 No.85631
    >>85593
    Can someone on a McDonalds salary start a family and have kids without sinking into debt and poverty? Or does he deserve to not have that freedom and we should condemn him for trying to defy his fate? I don't like where your argument is going.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:05 No.85636
    >people who haven't been to university yet talking about how great their degree will be in ten years.

    A guy with a Classics degree from Oxford is going to get paid more than any scientist you care to mention.

    Undergrad degrees in the US are a joke anyway. All of them.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:06 No.85648
    >>85601
    *sigh*
    So how the fuck does that explain that tuition was increasing this fast *before* state subsidies were decreased? How does that explain that public colleges which get some state subsidies have their tuition growing faster than private colleges (something that has been going on for 5+years, so also since before the downturn)? Why do spikes in tuition growth coincide with increases in federal loan guarantees? And why is this occurring in schools where the endowments are so massive they could stop charging tuition AT ALL and *still* make a profit just from interest on their investments?

    D-
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:06 No.85649
    >>85631

    low level mcdonalds worker: basically slavery
    Manager of a McDonalds: Shit tier management position
    Corporate McDonalds job: great salary and benefits

    Guess which one requires a degree?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:08 No.85664
    >>85631

    >implying McDonald's employees are not high teenagers.

    Anyone can get a labor education and make more than that. Welding, construction, several low office jobs etc. can all be achieved relatively easy.

    But I wouldn't start on the working ladder AND try to build a family at the same time. That's a recipe for disaster.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:08 No.85666
    >>85631
    >condemn the "freedom to fail"
    We should consider raising our expectations, yes.
    Before the "failure's" kids become criminals and make it a shitty, crime-ridden place to live.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:09 No.85680
    >took Politics and Economics at a top British university
    >worked for a year prior to going and paid off my first two years tuition
    >got a fairly decent job, went part time for the rest of my degree
    >afterwards, offered by the company to do an LLM and go full time with them afterward.
    >take them up on their offer

    It's fucking simple if you do it properly. Don't listen to the autistic telling you to do engineering, it's a dying industry that will soon be solely located in east Asia. Do a professional degree like law, teaching, accounting or medicine.

    No debt, no silly loans to pay off, no needing to lie on the internet about chemical engineering is a great industry and definitely pays you as much as a Exxon Mobil CEO and at the end of the day you won't be on the street dressed like a 16 year old bleating about "the man"

    It's made fucking easy for you.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:10 No.85689
    >>85680
    What if I'm not 17 and I've picked my degree already, and I'm already going to an engineering school because that's what I'm interested in

    How can I save myself now
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:12 No.85703
    >>85620
    So you're telling me that the average college grad does NOT take 5 years to graduate? That the drop out rate at college is NOT at about 50%? That the waiting list for afternoon classes is NOT much larger than for morning classes?

    Let me point out that I was replying to someone trying to imply that college automatically = hard work, a silly assertion. But your response indicates that you don't know a fucking thing about the 'alarming statistics' on college attendance that have been all over the news for a decade.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:12 No.85704
    >>85689

    It's not that engineering is a bad degree (far from it) but it's just the same as MBAs and CompSci were in the 90s - way too popular to supply meaningful employment.

    My brother in law did Nuclear Engineering at ICL and he teaches high school science.

    Just make sure you get as many grants and scholarships as you can.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:13 No.85714
    >>85680
    >medicine
    >No debt, no silly loans to pay off
    Are fucking kidding? Plenty of employment openings, sure. Medical grads have the largest amount of debt. They don't make massive amounts they used to (After Obama-care they'll make less).
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:14 No.85728
    >>85689

    Sell your organs
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:15 No.85729
    >>85648

    Spikes in tuition after loan guarantees are probably for the reason you stated, because the school needs more money and they know they can get it that way. But the reason they need more money isn't the guarantee itself. It's a case of correlation not causation. The colleges need money because of increased spending, when they're guaranteed that money they'll do what they can to get it, but that guarantee didn't cause the need for cash.

    The nature of private colleges is the reason that they are slower to raise tuition rates than public colleges. This might give you some insight http://net.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0005s.pdf

    It's not too long
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:16 No.85742
    >>85714

    Sorry, I don't live in the US but since the gross stupidity of your protestors has spread to my country I thought I'd chime in.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:18 No.85762
    >>85631
    >I don't like where your argument is going.
    Really? You don't like my argument that honest work is honorable? You disagree that doing what you can to provide for yourself and your obligations through honest work is your duty?
    Really?
    Or do you just want to continue to justify not taking that job because you are 'better' than that?
    Yes, there are low-paying jobs out there that are hard, dirty, and exhausting. That is a fact. But working one of those jobs isn't 'demeaning' or 'beneath you' if that is what you can get.

    BTW - a lot of the guys I work with that make six figures started flipping burgers.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:20 No.85781
    > Parents and Teachers always telling us in highschool that College is the right thing to do if you want a future.
    > Nobody tells me I could go to a vocational school except for one presentation I had in middle school.
    > Decide to go to College because I perceive plumbers, electricians, and other skilled labor jobs as disgraceful.
    > Apply for scholarships and work on all my college applications
    > Get only a few scholarships out of the hundreds I applied for
    > Got to take out loans...going to college will be worth it in the long run, right?
    > Graduate with a degree in a Hard Science, Law, fill in the blank with some other traditionally useful degree.
    > Forced to practically suck dick at unpaid internships for a job.
    > Denied jobs in my field for being unexperienced
    > Denied even low level jobs for being over qualified
    > In massive debt
    > I did everything I was told
    > Get mad
    > Join OWS
    > People tell me I should get a job
    > Fucking really?

    This is basically a huge chunk of the people that are a part of Occupy Wallstreet. Don't even try and pull the "Morons took out loans" bullshit, because these people are KIDS. We're talking 18 years old and fresh out of highschool, starry eyed and excited for the future the College Board has advertised us, the future our parents brainwashed us to want, and the future our teachers told us we needed to have in order to be responsible adults.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:21 No.85785
    >>85762

    Guy at my firm who's now a top corporate lawyer started out with no GCSEs and worked in a steelworks in the north of England before joining the Army. Through various night schools he got 3 As at A Level, went to Cambridge and cleaned himself up.

    He's worked for everything he has and when walking out of his London office had paint and eggs thrown at him for being a "toff" and "scum".

    Doubt they'd have done it to his face though, they prefer to have a good distance.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:21 No.85788
    >>85091
    Not only pushed by society by their peers, but due to the fact that a person can be too rich AND not poor enough for pell grants and may be forced into getting student loans.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:21 No.85791
    >>85729
    chicken/egg argument. I am arguing that admins feel free to increase spending because of the easy access to federally-insured cash. If I *know* I will get more money why shouldn't I increase spending?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:22 No.85792
    >>85781

    >thinks his parents brainwashed him

    No, you really are an idiot.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:23 No.85803
    >>85781
    Then why are you on Wall Street?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:25 No.85823
    >>85703
    >So you're telling me that the average college grad does NOT take 5 years to graduate?

    The average is actually 4.7 and that's really not much of a stretch. Plenty of students finish in 3 years or even less.

    >That the drop out rate at college is NOT at about 50%?

    Only 28% of drop outs are because of academic disqualification. Guess what the main factor is? Oh you know, Financial Pressure (38%)

    > That the waiting list for afternoon classes is NOT much larger than for morning classes?

    Can't find a source for this, but I've taken morning classes and night classes and usually the morning classes are packed. I've never taken a night class that was packed to the brim but I'm not going to propose pure anecdotes as evidence.

    http://www.duck9.com/College-Student-Drop-Out-Rates.htm
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:27 No.85838
    >>85792
    >Parents and Teachers always telling us in highschool that College is the right thing to do if you want a future.
    It's not brain-washing. But who respects auto-mechanics, welders or sanitation workers? Nobody in this society.
    College = Self respect.
    America has been that way for 20 to 30 years.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:30 No.85875
    >>85838
    I respect mechanics, welders, and sanitation workers. Without them, life would fucking suck. They're doing hard work and taking one for the team so to speak.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:33 No.85911
    >>85823
    In other words, yes, yes, and sure.

    >>85838
    Where do you live? Because it might be because my father was older, but I was always taught that honest work is honest work.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:37 No.85955
    >>85791

    Hmm my take on the problem is that - like a lot of things - we're relying too much on the free market for education. Federally guaranteed loans are not helping anything, because they're pumping a lot of easy cash into the market, which lets more people have access, which drives up prices.

    In my opinion the increased access to education is a good thing but guaranteed loans are the wrong way to go about it. If you want more people to go to college, raise taxes and build more public colleges. All loans do is pump up education costs and put money in rich bankers' pockets.

    Education is a public good - an educated population is in everyone's best interest. We should all pay for it together and we should all have access.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:40 No.85976
         File1319726449.jpg-(131 KB, 500x657, capitalist magazine fleecing t(...).jpg)
    131 KB
    They're forced into college. It's a con game. You can't even discharge student loan debt through bankruptcy. Once you make that mistake at a young stupid age, you're stuck with it for life. If you don't pay, huge penalties, liens, garnishment, etc. Kids don't realize what they're getting into at age 18 when they take out a $15,000 loan. By the end you easily have $75,000 or more in debt. Then politicalfags give companies free money to send jobs overseas, so you don't even have a shit factory job to fall back on. So you're stuck in debt servitude for the rest of your life and treated like a criminal just because you fell for the college con job.
    >> married oldfag !VqaXcWQC4Q 10/27/11(Thu)10:41 No.85987
    >>85955
    In general I do agree - by saying 'free market' on one hand and 'subsidies' on the other we are getting the worst of both worlds. Let's lay off the subsidies, let the heated system cool off and see what a natural state looks like.
    I suspect we would go back to having few jobs that require a degree!
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:46 No.86029
    >>85911

    No, the answer is, it varies, drop outs would reduce dramatically it it weren't for FINANCIAL PRESSURE (guess you couldn't see it the first time), and I'd like to see at least one source provided for anything you've said so far. Because I've provided one in virtually every response.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:48 No.86044
    >>85987

    You suspect that by dropping subsidies for higher education we won't have an economy that requires higher education? I agree, we'd become the next china and our economy would revert from services to manufacturing. Sounds terrible.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:53 No.86088
    >>85976

    >just because you fell for the college con job
    >implying colleges are private institutions
    >implying it's not the governments fault
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:54 No.86100
    >>85987

    On one hand I agree with you - there's a ton of jobs out there asking for a college degree that probably shouldn't be. However on the flip, new technology and new information keep getting added to the world, and it makes sense that society would need more education to keep pace with it.

    I think that sending everyone to college would be a good thing and well worth it. If we're gonna continue to improve society it helps to educate people.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:56 No.86120
         File1319727381.jpg-(4 KB, 126x95, 1318780375951s.jpg)
    4 KB
    >USA
    >You buy your diplomas with student loans.

    Feels good to be french.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)10:57 No.86126
    >>86120
    >Feels good to be french.
    It never does.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:01 No.86159
    The word Society has been posted 12 (now 13) in this thread

    I HATE that word
    does anyone agree that "society" (now 14th) is just a huge fucking excuse to fuckup?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:01 No.86162
    >>86100

    Mindless drivel.

    >new technology and new information keep getting added to the world, and it makes sense that society would need more education to keep pace with it.

    That takes a college degree?

    >If we're gonna continue to improve society it helps to educate people.

    Does your garbage man need a college degree? Does your bartender need a college degree? Does the janitor at the local high school need a college degree?

    If they want to get one on their own, that's all well and good, but if you push everyone into getting a degree for the sake of "being good for society" well, frankly, that's feel good bullshit. All you're doing is throwing money away and making degrees worthless. It's like inflation, but for degrees.

    You're really just going to make the current problems worse.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:02 No.86167
    >>86159

    My first and immediate urge when hearing someone use it to justify their bullshit is to beat them to death with a claw hammer.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:03 No.86175
    >>86162
    >That takes a college degree?
    Employers seem to think so.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:03 No.86182
    >>86162
    >Does your garbage man need a college degree? Does your bartender need a college degree? Does the janitor at the local high school need a college degree?

    Implying that society is driven forward by it's garbage men, bartenders, and janitors. Our CEO's, Entrepreneurs, Accountants, Lawyers, Judges, Scientists, etc. Are the ones who move society forward and yes they need degrees.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:03 No.86183
    >>86159
    not everyone is a blank slate
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:04 No.86189
    >>86167
    the instant that word is stated i reach rage mode
    akin to the fire it takes kill a man
    yes i mad
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:06 No.86196
    >>86183
    >>86183
    Elaborate, please?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:08 No.86212
    >>85781
    So you got fucked because you are stupid.
    An 18 years old aren't kids bro, stop trying to blame other for you incompetence.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:08 No.86214
    >>86196
    there are a lot more factors running in a person's life other than the ability to say no to certain things
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:09 No.86222
    >>86212
    18-year-olds really aren't that mature at all dude
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:11 No.86229
    >>86212
    Actually your brain isn't fully developed by the age of 18.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:12 No.86235
    >>86214
    If you blame society for your bullshit then you're useless and going nowhere anyway
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:14 No.86243
    >>85781

    I think this gets at the heart of a lot of the anger. College is touted as an "investment in your future" by everyone from parents to teachers & guidance counselors etc. 18-year-old students who look up to these people bought into this "investment" at great personal cost and while they were paying out the ass and working, the economy crashed - largely because of actions by bankers on Wall St. but more to the point, certainly not because they did anything wrong - and the payoff's gone.

    A lot of people say these kids are dumb for doing it but first of all, they're 18 years old and just graduated high school - its not like they have much life experience to draw on, and everyone advises them to go to college. I could have told you that getting a women's studies degree was a bad idea, but I could not have told you that 80% of college grads would be moving back home after they graduate.

    Second of all, a lot has changed in the last four-odd years - anyone that started college after 2004 basically got bit in the ass by the crisis. It might have been a good idea to go when they started school, but 4 years and 5 figures of debt later they graduate and there's no jobs because someone else fucked up.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:14 No.86252
    >america
    >you have the freedom to make your own choices
    >live your own life
    >but you can only take your education down certain paths if you want to live comfortably
    >and you end up working for someone else anyway
    >they tell you to start a business
    >but you don't think you should have to start a business to live a happy life
    >true freedom
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:15 No.86260
    >>86235
    where'd you read that?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:17 No.86271
    Feels good to live in Australia where education is an interest free loan from the government. Feels bad to live in Australia where the government treat their people like little children who need constant supervision.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:19 No.86281
    >>86182

    Then you agree with him. He is saying everybody doesn't need a degree but everybody is attempting to get a degree.

    Right now there is some utopian system bullshit going on where everybody thinks "If you just follow these rules you'll get all the money you could ever want" and the rules are go to college. Simply put thats dumb. It also takes away alot of incentive for people to be inventive and proactive like they used to. Instead they all immediately look for employment, because we're creating a system of employment where you run through the maze, get all your pieces of paper and the assumption is on the other end you're going to be taken care of.

    Thats not reality. Degrees are fine, I've got no problem with them for specialization and further education if that is what YOU as an individual want for yourself. 12 years of grade school is so ridiculously fine for a full education though that to presume college is NECESSARY for people to be informed and not drooling retards is just crazy. More of the population used to read regularly in the late 1800s than they do now, and school used to mean "go for only 4 weeks out of the year, and you can choose which 4 weeks you want to go", and half the population didn't go anyways. Our standards are falling, we throw more money at public school now than ever before and the thing is either filled with stagnation or decline.

    I just can't believe that going to school til your twenty fucking one is what is require to be educated, when many of the dimwits that come out of colleges with bachelors degree still sound like drooling retards. 20 fucking 1 for christs sakes, and now I hear people talking about MASTERS degrees! If things keep going this way everyone will be in school till they're 30 years old!
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:19 No.86284
    >>86252

    >go to school at the expense of others
    >get useless degree at the expense of others
    >can't get a job, live off the government, at the expense of others
    >true freedom

    Well. As long as you're free I guess that's all that matters.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:20 No.86288
    >Go to a CC
    >Get a AS in CS
    >Finish with NO debt
    >Get a job making about 67k a year.
    >Decide to enroll at a cal state
    >Taking a half load
    >Company is paying for part of it
    >student aid a part
    >parents contributing partly
    >My projections are that I will have no debt when I finish
    > 20% pay rate increase when done


    Stop bitching your Libtardarts degree is worthless. It is not my or anyone else's fault that you fall into the trap of going to college for an experience or decided to go into a field that is over saturated.So what if it will take me 7 years to get done with my bs; college is a business and I am playing it to the best of my ability.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:21 No.86294
    >>86288

    What job did you land for 67k a year on an AS?
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:24 No.86304
    Why are there so many faggy liberals on this board now? /new/ never used to be like this.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:24 No.86306
    >>86162
    >first point

    Yes, I think that all jobs aside, people are better for having some sort of higher education. In the US, that means a college degree. If you don't agree, that's just like, my opinion, man. You're welcome to your own, however wrong it may be.

    >second point

    Sorry I could have phrased that better. I think everyone should have the *opportunity* to go to college if they want. No, those jobs you described don't need degrees - of course not. However, I don't think its right to ask people

    >>86159
    >politics board
    >gets pissed when people talk about society

    You're a dumbass dude, politics and governance are all about society.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:25 No.86318
    >>86284
    >education isn't free for some reason
    >prussian model education set up to extort money and mobilize youths for the work force
    >the work force is a buyer's market
    >the only people buying are the people selling to dumb american teenagers with their parents' allowance because they have the most expendable income
    >the arts aren't dumb enough for americans
    >educated workforce either goes into wage slavery or dies on the street
    >capitalism works
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:26 No.86321
    >>86294
    Programmer

    Oh, I did get a few certs like a+ and a few networking certs. I think the best thing I did was interning for a computer support/ help desk for a year which helped me get some experience as well.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:28 No.86333
    >>86321

    Your figure seemed high so I checked the average salary. Turns out working at a help desk is the highest paying job you could get (websites reported income up to 200k for working at a help desk, I'm guessing they're inaccurate though because that's just ridiculous)
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:28 No.86337
    >>86306

    Got distracted lets try this again

    >second point

    Sorry I could have phrased that better. I think everyone should have the *opportunity* to go to college if they want. No, those jobs you described don't need degrees - of course not. However, I don't think its right to ask people to pay out the ass for the opportunity to get higher education if they want a job that requires higher education. You'll have a super genius that's bartending because he couldn't afford to get the degree he needed to become a scientist or whatever.

    If someone wants to work as a garbage man, or if they aren't smart enough to do anything else, that's fine, but they shouldn't be denied or priced out of the opportunity to be a physicist if they have the desire and the talent.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:32 No.86368
    >>86318

    fix the model away from the prussian model (to something preferrable of course) and I'll bet you a hay penny that college will be completely unnecessary as far as creating an educated populace. It will only be an institution for academics with liberal arts degrees, or an institution to train scientists.

    Not even lawyers should need degrees, though they're welcome to get one to expand their credentials.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:34 No.86389
    >>86229
    it still doesn't mean they can make choices.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:34 No.86391
    >>86337

    They have the opportunity.

    Your endless meddling with the economy and government subsidies for school only make it harder for them to exploit those opportunities.
    >> Anonymous 10/27/11(Thu)11:34 No.86394
    >Join US Coast Guard
    >Serve 4 years
    >Get god tier post-911 GI Bill after getting out
    >4 years paid for 100% + book money
    >Get a $1533 living allowance for going to school

    That's right, I actually make a profit going to school. You're jelly as fuck

    Oh, I'll also add that I get massive amounts of pussy for being a veteran, and once I get my bachelor's degree, I'll work on my PhD (for free, of course. Thanks to the Illinois Veterans Grant)

    So fuck you and your debt.



    [Return]
    Delete Post [File Only]
    Password
    Style [Yotsuba | Yotsuba B | Futaba | Burichan]