>"[my name], you don't understand. Congress passes an amendment which says abortion is illegal, it cannot be challenged as unconstitutional so the courts cannot strike it down."
>"I don't think you understand, sir. Marbury v Madison established judicial review, which would actually give the Supreme Court the right to challenge the constitutionality of such an amendment, even if it was ratified by the states. And, as you know, your proposed amendment violates state sovereignty (tenth amendment) and the common law right of bodily integrity given to us by the ninth amendment. The Supreme Court, even on its worst day, would have to find such an amendment unconstitutional."
>He stops arguing and tells me I'm wrong. Won't continue the debate, calls me obtuse, and gives me a referral for questioning him. He also tells other teachers and student that I'm a "non-conformist" who doesn't believe "government is needed to create or enforce laws because people can do a better job at it themselves".

^^^^^^^^^

>But what quantifiable evidence is there to support the claim of a fetus being 'life'?

Are you kidding me?

Its right in front of your eyes man.

yeah dude, teachers are fucking stupid
you're just figuring this out now?
the "education" system never teaches anyone anything

If you know so much, you should teach the class.

Class time isn't about showing off, jackass. It's about learning. You weren't allowing other students to learn.

>>753926
Confirmed for murderer
Abortion is the killing of a life

No matter how much "quantifiable evidence" someone gave you either way, you'd still have the same ignorant opinion.

I bet you're the kid in class that everyone groans at when you open your mouth

>high school

reported for underage

gtfo

What kind of fucked up school do you go to OP?

then did you remind him to collect everyones homework? fucking nerd

>>753966
>the kid in class that everyone groans at when you open your mouth

Oh man I hate that fucking kid.

>>753953

when in doubt post photo of out of date document

>>753970

I actually go to the fifth best High School in my state... I live in Arizona, which probably explains a lot. I used to live in Massachusetts, where teachers would engage us in discussion and encourage debate like this as it would force them to take a (sorely needed) break from rote learning and PowerPoint narrating.

>>753969

I've been 18 since August.

op if you really wanted to verbally kick his ass you could have also brought up donohue-levitt hypothesis

legal abortion is why the crime rate has been dropping over the past few decades!!

>"But what quantifiable evidence is there to support the claim of a fetus being 'life'?

all the same evidence that would substantiate the life of a newborn child, maybe?

>>753926
sage for butthurt liberal heckler and teen fag

you sound gay and probably would have gotten your ass kicked at my highschool

>>753992
Enjoying your beaner spics?
"Ms. Teacher, why am I so stupid?"
"Ms. Teacher, I'm bored"
And yes, they really said "Ms. Teacher" instead of the teachers name

>>753953
I think you're confusing constitutional laws and federal laws.
Judicial review is based on the ability of the courts to use the constitution to slap down laws passed by the legislature. But your teacher is talking about making a change to the constitution itself.

That includes a whole shitton of *different* checks and balances, including i think the required ratification of like 75% of the state legislatures or something.
I don't recall the Judicial branch having a say in that. They don't make the constitution or its amendments, it just adheres to the law as it is drawn out.

.>>753926
>and it is unconstitutional to have the government protect somebody from themselves

drugs illegal, prostitution illegal, helmet laws, seat belt laws etc etc.

>2011
>not sleeping during class and just telling the teacher what they want to hear to get an easy A, then disregarding their horseshit the second you walk out the door

If the ninth amendment is so sacred how come the Supreme Court didn't overturn the "War on Drugs"?
Also, previous court decisions are useless if an anti abortion amendment gets passed into the constitution--y'know, part of the whole "highest law of the land".

I'm pretty sure that amendments work by recency. So new amendments can eliminate the ramifications of old ones. Otherwise we'd still have Prohibition.

>>753953

You can't find parts of the constitution unconstitutional. And amendments are part of the constitution.

That'd be like saying the Supreme Court can strike down the freedom of speech, it's just not true.

lol op you sound like a nerd so stoopid

>>754030

All unconstitutional laws which have been created to cater to a small, yet vocal, moral minority which insists on having the government protect them from their own vices because they are irresponsible.

>>754029

This is the kind of response I was looking for.

Judicial Review gives the courts the right to strike down and review any legislation or act by congress that is of questionable constitutionality. IIRC, and I may be extending far too much power to the courts, it is absolutely necessary for the Supreme Court to make ascertain that any act passed by congress is constitutional. And all amendments originate as acts, correct?

I wish I was as smart as OP when I was in High School. Tortured genius man, tortured genius.

Oh, so you're one of those faggots who has to tout his intellectual superiority in front of everyone to make himself feel better? I hate your kind. How about you just shut the fuck up and let him speak, if he's wrong then ignore him. Bitching like a faggot won't change anything.

Congress can't enact a policy making abortion illegal in all circumstances because they aren't given that right in the Constitution. Only states and the people have that right. The 14th Amendment fucked up the State's rights, so we should repeal that fucking amendment.

The 23rd amendment was enacted because of both a litany of valid legal challenges against the 18th amendment, and the propogation of crime resulting from the amendment.

The 23rd amendment was unnecessary though, as a host of federal courts had already declared it unconstitutional.

My issue is how teachers/professors will shove their views into the kid's heads instead of teaching both sides.

Share your opinion on why you find abortion wrong, then give the other side a fair shot.

We're not raising small versions of you, we're raising the future.

OP, you did everything wrong.

You may be completely right, but you chose the worst forum for your arguments.

The aim is to get out of high school, and post-secondary if need be, and then act with your principles.

You don't waste your time going against these people.

You won't change their views, and you may have incorrectly solidified the views of your peers.
You ultimately damaged everything because of your vehemence in proving that you were "right."

Next time, remember that your actions leading to change will be far more worthwhile. So finish school, and don't pull shit that encourages your peers to ignore you, and these issues in general.

>>754116

Amendments don't really originate as acts...there are multiple ways for them to start, which your teacher should have taught you.

Regardless, the Supreme Court is not permitted to strike down something added to the Constitution directly by the will of over a majority of Congress AND state governments due to a power that isn't even enumerated directly in the constitution.

That wouldn't be a separation of powers, that would be a concentration of powers and completely absurd.

I'm in college.

This year I took a 200 level sociology class for shits and giggles. Wrote my first paper which was basically pro nuclear power. Cited a number of peer reviewed scholarly journals which backed my carefully laid out argument. Got a C and professor told me my sources weren't reliable or too biased.

Did my second paper on the rising prison population in America. Took the ultra liberal hurr durr racism stance taught in class and cited a few blogs as my references. Got an A.

There are people who are just too far up their own ass to be able to see other viewpoints, you're going to see a lot of them and it's usually best not to even bother challenging them.

Nobody under the age of 25 should ever post here.

>>754223

I'm under the age of 25

>>754137
>>754104
>>754033
>>754011
>>753966
>>753961
followers.

future history teacher here...working on my masters

the proper way to do this would have been debating with him after instead of swinging your big dick around the class and causing a shitstorm.

also your a faggot because abortion is murder.

i can smell your young radical angst from here.

besides i doubt you actually said any of this

>>754142
Yeah, lets let the redneck barcalounger types in Mississippi, GA and AZ set the bar.

>>754228
That's my point.

>>754251

No, your point is that I shouldn't post here because I'm under 25, not that I am under 25.

>>754243
(never has been raped and gotten pregnant at 16)

>>754143
The concept of declaring a piece of the constitution unconstitutional makes my head hurt.
From a legal standpoint i don't think it makes any sense at all.
Sure, in the "spirit" of the popular notion of the constitution you can say ban on liquor was unconstitutional

But you'd have to peg another amendment rescinding the 18th for it to make legal sense...

>But what quantifiable evidence is there to support the claim of a fetus being 'life

why do liberals always use this excuse. life starts at conception. those clump of cells are going to become a human being...i dont get why you guys are trying to rationalize murder.

>>754137

How am I flaunting my intellectual superiority? I don't understand. . .

>>754184

I wasn't being vehement about it at all. I just wanted a straight answer, which he refused to give. I was taught when I was younger to always make people be straight with you, and when they refuse, keep pressing because they'll eventually crack. If that's being vehement, I apologize. That's just how I was taught.

>>754209

He kept drawing comparisons to prohibition, so I thought (in his situation, anyway) there would be something similar to the Volstead Acts for the Supreme Court to strike down. Even if there's not, I'm in favor of (slightly) expanding the Supreme Court or giving the Attorney General a much larger role in deciding the constitutionality of legislation proposed by congress.

I firmly believe that the non-adaption of the Corwin amendment was a major mistake in this country's history and should be corrected now.

>>754259
At least you're supporting my point by being pedantic.

>>754209
>>754209
Maybe you should have gone to your sociology department dean or something and kept those two papers after your class was done...
Wtf, academic standards how do they work?

>>754284

No capacity for intellectual thought = not human.

>>754284

Hey I believe a fetus counts as life. So does a ringworm.

>>754307
Fuck you and everyone else talking about this abortion bullshit and derailing.

This is an actual constitutional law thread.
Stop fucking it up.

>pretending that exchange ever took place

ishygddt

>>754269
>getting butthurt over the few incidents where this actually happens

this is what abortions are about

-drunk sorostitutes getting pounded
-ghetto sluts
-retarded rednecks

when you have sex and you dont use protection...you usually will get the girl pregnant. if your man enough to fuck susie rotten crotch in the backseat of your dads honda, your man enough to assume the responsibilities of parenthood. if not there are plenty of people who cant get pregnant who would be willing to adopt.

man up and face your responsibilities.

as for the rape victims...you should raise your child to be a super villain and to seek revenge by killing the father in mortal combat

OP here.

This exchange did really take place.

>>754307
So people in a coma aren't alive? Should they all be killed? What about mentally disabled people?

Your argument is flawed.

Gracious, I hate kids like you who love to take on the teacher like you....No wait I don't cause then I don't have to pay attention and can do other shit like check my phone.

I'm sorry OP, but you're just plain wrong. The Supreme Court has no power to declare what is essentially a part of the Constitution (a new Amendment to it) to be unconstitutional.

In short, you're a moron.

Human conception is when a sperm and egg cell fertilize, at this point the fertilized cell is a unique human individual differentiated from the mother. At that point of time it is a human worthy of the right to life.

>>754357

>-drunk sorostitutes getting pounded
>-ghetto sluts
>-retarded rednecks

Exactly, do you really want these people to reproduce?

>there are plenty of people who cant get pregnant who would be willing to adopt.

Yes, there are always people lining up to take care of a crackbaby with aids.

Heres the problem I have with this exchange.

#1 your trying to show up the teacher
#2 you were a dick about it
#3 your mad, obviously butthurt
#4 the point of this exchange wasn't to debate...in search of knowledge...but rather to be a dick and show how smart you are. the problem with this being anyone who considers themselves to be smart is usually a pompous ass.

>>754371

>implying that mentally disabled people have no capacity for intellectual thought
>implying that being in a coma (having the ability for intellectual thought beforehand) is the same as being a fetus

GO GO GAGDET JETPACK

>>753961

Holy fuck you are as stupid as pig shit. People like you are the reason I hate the political atmosphere in this country. I've gotten this same fucking line from everyone on every side of the political spectrum.

"You're not there to debate and question ideas you're there to 'learn'" Do you see something wrong with that sentence? It implies that to "learn" is to do and believe what you are told rather than understand what is true. Dumbshit you probably also vote for candidates just because they share your party affiliation.

>>754401
its not that i want them to reproduce...im not going to play god and let them shirk their responsibilities as a human being...by letting them take the easy way out and kill another human being.

>>754427
if you care that much. talk to your teacher outside of class like a man.

your wasting valuable classtime with your retarded bullshit.

>>754409

>#1 your trying to show up the teacher

How is trying to get the teacher to give me a straight answer "showing him up"? I don't understand that.

>#2 you were a dick about it

How was I a dick? I was more calm and level-headed through the debate than he was...

>#3 your mad, obviously butthurt

I'm not mad, I'm just looking to further this debate -- with the groundwork already laid -- on a political message board.

>#4 the point of this exchange wasn't to debate...in search of knowledge...but rather to be a dick and show how smart you are. the problem with this being anyone who considers themselves to be smart is usually a pompous ass.

This would be a legitimate point if I considered myself smart. Other people tell me that I'm smart and that I'm a great debater, but I don't recognize those two things as objective facts. I was trying to further my education by applying my knowledge... what is wrong with that?

>>754427

The OP wasn't there to debate, though. It's fairly obvious that he was there just to say his own views.

You can tell this because he talked 10x as much as the teacher and somehow believes the Supreme Court can strike down the constitution as unconstitutional.

>>754409

You forgot this bit...


#5 Being wrong in the first place.


Which frankly, is the biggest offense. If you try to show up the teacher and show off how brilliant you are, being utterly wrong, being told HOW you are utterly wrong, and yet still arguing with the teacher just makes you look like a retard. In public.

>>754357
So you want a world rampant of rednecks, ghetto, and poverty bound people flooding and wasting the planet, breeding away like thoughtless rabbits. Its like cancer.

I honestly can't believe you anti-abortion guys have so much sympathy for human life. We're already bursting our planet at seems with a population thats over 7 billion and rising.

I just see it as trimming the fat.
cynical?

Not that I don't think abortion is a hard decision to make. I could have had 2 year old son right now, I have the bear that weight for the rest of my life.

>>753926
>grandfather was a captain of ukrainian SS
>father escaped east germany to live in USA, supports nazi ideals
>discussing WW2 in class
>know fucking everything about it
>call out teacher on her jewish propaganda garbage and fake death toll numbers
>get sent to office and berated by Mr. Schweinburggoldstein
>project about holocaust comes up
>do it about the holohoax and include that one jew's trip to auschwitz where he shows a ton of flaws in the holocaust
>teacher fails me because she thinks im a nazi

Fuck high school.

That's fucking retarded

Of course a new amendment to the constitution would be "unconstitutional"

If it was already covered in the constitution they wouldn't have to amend it. Of course, technically the first 10 amendments are covered in the constitution already, but the anti-federalists were astonishingly right when predicting we'd still need to spell it out for future generations.

Also, if you accept the 10th amendment, how can you also cite Roe v Wade as legitimate precedence?

Anyway, you're pretty dumb and your teacher is even dumber for not being able to handle your half-informed pseudo arguments.

What state are you from OP?

Here in New York my old US History/Gov't teacher had quite a logical outlook on things. He didn't try to press his political ideology into us, but did make it obvious what sides he favored.

>>754452

Keep choking it down you cunt.

>>754478

>Of course a new amendment to the constitution would be "unconstitutional"

Are you fucking new?

>>754388

>differentiated from the mother.

Stop your 'homoousios' bullshit and take a biology class. Any biology class. A third-grade one will suffice.

>>754380

You are ignoring the fact that amendments cannot contradict one another without starting a shitstorm, usually leading to the passage of further qualifying amendments (cf. citizenship for blacks). OP had a point.

>>754503

This took place in Arizona, but I'm originally from Massachusetts. In Cambridge (where I lived), this would be allowed -- and would be encouraged -- which is why I'm confused about getting a referral and being told that I'm wrong (without an explanation why).

WHAT STATE DO YOU LIVE IN, NIGGER?

>>754439

>and let them shirk their responsibilities as a human being

Right, so Jamal is magically going to get off drugs and become a model father?

People who get themselves into these situations aren't responsible to begin with. Telling them to "deal with the consequences of their actions" isn't punishing them, it isn't going to make them change their lifestyle, it's punishing their kids who are going to grow up and repeat the cycle of retardery.

Plus weren't you advocating adoption? Isn't that an "easy way out"?

>>754469
you're begging the question

"there are less undesirables" is only a legitimate support of abortion if you already find abortion acceptable. There are LOTS of ways to have less rednecks and crackwhores, but that doesn't make all of them legitimate solutions because of that end result.

>>754478

Because Roe v Wade exists... I can't pick and choose what exists and what doesn't. If I did, it wouldn't be a true argument...

of course you hate the school system.

You're trolling them and they don't buy your shit.

You cannot sue that an amendment violates your rights. You can only get an additional amendment passed to repeal the first.

Prohibition, look it up.

On top of that, the insane idea that somehow one amendment would be countered by another... amendments are written in ways to address conflicts, and supersede any prior amendments.

You deserve an F for failing to understand that an amendment isn't just some big fancy law, it is LITERALLY altering the content of the constitution ITSELF.

>mfw I received god tier Iowa public education and don't have any stories to tell

>>754525
Ahh. Alright. There's your problem. I'm no expert on Republican-majority state education systems but its quite obvious that from this scenario, the school is run by people who are trying to push their political ideologies into the students, instead of having them make the choices themselves.

I'm going to use this argument some time OP, thanks.

>>754578
Shut the fuck up. You're just as bad as they are.
Don't tell me you'd be chirping the same response if he was some Arizonan going to Massachusetts and all the dialogue centering on abortion was reversed

>>754544
Maybe its because I live in southern california and everyday I see catholic latina mothers with their 7 out of control kids wreaking havoc. I die a little inside as a human being.. I try and look at it from beyond the human perspective. Its idiotacracy taking place before my very eyes. Humans speading like wildfire. We both can agree that the real solution is sex education and self control, but I wont rule out abortion.

>>754569
yes but roe v wade violates the 10th amendment in the same way the hypothetical amendment would. so it may be precedent for abortion being legal, but it's also precedent for violating the 10th amendment

Not to mention it would be fucking stupid to hold a constitutional amendment to the precedent of old legislation. It would be literally impossible to amend the constitution if you had to do that.

>>754525
Because you were not grasping why you were wrong. The teacher does not have all day to waste on you. and hes probably an alcoholic. Its destroying his family. What high school do you attend?

>>754272
That's exactly what hawke v smith, mccran and the state of new jersey vs USA, Herbert vs Louisiana and others did though.

Yes, amendments can be challenged and courts forced to confirm and clarify that amendments don't contradict pre existing amendments.

These cases laid the framework for the 21st amendment.

Op is right, the courts would be in a difficult position facing challenges to a 28th amendment to ban abortion. It goes against the 5th and 9th just at a glance.

Congress would backpedal and declare a 29th amendment revoking the 28th, just to save face .... just as they did with prohibition.

>>754648

Thank you for being a voice of reason in this echo chamber of conservatards.

>>754628
yeah well you could get the same results by killing all those Latinas and their 7 kids when you see them, or setting fire to all the barrios and trailer parks that you see, but for some reason you dont. The issue with abortion isn't about population control, and really your little eugenics-lite idea is pretty sickening if only because you don't seem to be realizing what you're advocating.

>>754688

Newsflash: I support abortion rights but still realize that the Supreme Court cannot "overturn an amendment" because giving them the judicial power to change the constitution directly would be fucking retarded.

It does not matter that the example used was a hypothetical abortion amendment. Not one bit. The fact that the issue is politically charged means nothing.

The issue is whether or not the Supreme Court's power of judicial review means that they can compare the Constitution to itself, and declare it unconstitutional. The answer is obviously no, because that would be fucking retarded.

ITT /pol/ is retarded and continues to support bad teachers who can't admit they might be wrong.
You are the reason our schooling remains shit.

>>754628
Friends in S. CAL warned me about Hispanic areas of LA. Sounded terrible and may well be true.

In Oregon Latinos are hard working family centered people and the kids are great too.

When I lived on the East Coast my NYC Puerto Rican GF moved to Reading PA with me. She volunteered for the PR Civic ASSN. & told me the local PR's were all from San Juan's worst slums. I suspect SC got those types.

NYC got the black Irish so I suggest you move or set a good example.

>>754284

>those clump of cells are going to become a human being

1) l2pronouns
2) Not necessarily; by the same token, every time my body has created a spermatozoon that has not become part of a living human, I've committed murder.

>>754742
well the guy was wrong but not for the reasons op was stating. And op was even more wrong

Allow me to explain what you were to arrogant to understand.
Your teacher was using an abortion amendment as an example of how constitutional laws overrides ALL OTHER law, and the process of supreme court judicial review (IE deeming something unconstitutional) doesn't work on the constitution itself. He used a not perfect example because an abortion amendment would never get passed, but go look up the history of the 18+ voting amendment.

>>754769
except sperm don't have the necessary DNA to be defined as human

Also, while the supreme court does not explicitly have the power of judicial review or the authority to declare an amendment to the constitution, unconstitutional ... Governors and state judges do.

This is granted to them by the 10th amendment. Again, see the state of new jersey vs.the USA during prohibition. The case actually challenged the federal governments authority to demand that new jersey uphold the volstead act, and not the 18th amendment itself.

But the state won the right to not enforce a constitutional amendment.

Further, yes the scotus CAN legislate from the bench and directly affect the legislative and executive branches, and have done precisely that as recently as November of 2000, when a majority of five judges decreed that Florida cease ballot counting.

Op's teacher is a faggot.

>>754804

I don't want to live in this world anymore, /pol/. The school system is shit. Here's an example:

>AP US Government (I'm a Senior)
>Teacher is talking about the court system
>He says congress could enact policy which would make slavery illegal in all circumstances, as the 13th amendment, and the Supreme Court wouldn't be able to do anything about it as amendments cannot be challenged
>okay.jpg
>"But sir, can't someone sue the United States government if they are directly effected by this new amendment and end up sustaining some kind of financial or physical harm as a result of not being allowed to have a slave?"
>He's caught off-guard, acts like he didn't hear me
>I press further
>"I mean, to clarify, the ninth amendment, in a lot of ways, gives us the right to homestead integrity -- the ability to choose what happens in, and what goes into our own homes -- and such an amendment would violate that. Further, a federal ban on slavery would be a violation of the tenth amendment. I don't think Congress would be able to pass something like that... especially with a lot of precedent (court cases, Dred Scott v Sandford, etc) and other amendments being against its passage."
>He responds
>"The state has an obligation to protect life; it must ban slavery in this situation."
>"But what quantifiable evidence is there to support the claim of a negro being 'life'? Without any, the state has nothing to protect but the individual ... and it is unconstitutional to have the government protect somebody from themselves, as that blatantly goes against the original purpose of government."

>>755027
>"[my name], you don't understand. Congress passes an amendment which says slavery is illegal, it cannot be challenged as unconstitutional so the courts cannot strike it down."
>"I don't think you understand, sir. Marbury v Madison established judicial review, which would actually give the Supreme Court the right to challenge the constitutionality of such an amendment, even if it was ratified by the states. And, as you know, your proposed amendment violates state sovereignty (tenth amendment) and the common law right of property integrity given to us by the ninth amendment. The Supreme Court, even on its worst day, would have to find such an amendment unconstitutional."
>He stops arguing and tells me I'm wrong. Won't continue the debate, calls me obtuse, and gives me a referral for questioning him. He also tells other teachers and student that I'm a "non-conformist" who doesn't believe "government is needed to create or enforce laws because people can do a better job at it themselves".

>>755027
>try to do the same thing in regular government class (non AP),

>get the shit kicked out of me by black people afterwords

>>755039
I'd hate to have to be a teacher and deal with pompous teenagers who think they know how the world operates.

>>755049
Then you obviously aren't fit to be a teacher given how dealing with that properly is part of the whole "teaching" aspect of the job.

>>755084
Indeed. That job has broken men better than me.

WHY IS IT THAT WHEN IT'S A FETUS IT'S CALLED AN ABORTION BUT WHEN IT'S AN EGG IT'S CALLED AN OMELET?

America is a very stupid country. Go elsewhere. Well actually don't we don't want more Americans in the rest of the world, stay in your shit hole you filthy yank slime.

Are teachers allowed to make political statements or is this a private school?

Just asking because living in a european welfare state, my public school teachers were obligated to stay neutral on political issues.

>>755180
Fetuses are fertilized while chicken eggs are not.

Pro-choicers can't into biology.

>>754025
At least they're not niggers.

http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html

>>755235
Public school teachers aren't supposed to, but it occasionally happens.

>>755264
I suspect that essay is going to be quite the hit on /pol/

>>755249
its just common sense.

-you fuck
-girl gets pregnant
-realizes she has a baby
-that shit inside her will become a baby in 9 months

the liberal argument is semantics. enjoy rationalizing the murder of a future child.

don't you guys think philosophy is unintelligent?

>>755295
There was a ~300 post thread about it last night.

Obligatory

>>755349
Yeah. It's a fun read.

>>755264
you want to teach niggers. you have to go old school on them and hit them with rulers.

im serious. you cant rationalize with these people. you need to hit niglets if you want them to shut up or learn.

>>755367


Pic related

>thinks the 10th amendment stops other amendments from taking away states rights
>thinks they're intelligent.