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Starship Troopers didn't strike me as fascist: it was a democracy where the franchise is limited to people who have served in the military OR the non-fighting auxiliary services.

A nationalist country, perhaps, but I saw nothing about forcing people to conform to a 'national identity'.

>>2052454

The modern liberal is hedonistic. They want freedom without the responsibility that comes with it.

He also wrote a stranger from a strange world, which was hippie bullshit.

The glorification of militarism is why it gets called fascist. I don't agree with the criticism but that's why it gets lobbed at him.

>serve the state or have no rights
>not fascism

gee, I don't even.

>ask why expecting people to pay for their mistakes and at the same time getting them rewards for working hard is supporting facism
I don't really understand what this means but I guess I'll sit around here and help you hate a teacher anyway

fuck libfags hurr durr

>>2052505

By that definition then the USA is fascist because of all the retards going 'support our troops'

>>2052514
>pay taxes or have no rights
>not fascism

>>2052514
Not to mention that Col Dubois thought that the US Declaration of Independence was bullshit.

Sometimes I just think people have only seen the movie, never read the book.

Also "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is weird and interesting. It does suffer from slow pacing like Heinlein's other works, but that's the nature of the beast.

Remind her in class that Heinlein authored "Stranger in a Strange Land" right after he wrote "Starship Troopers" and call her out on her lack of knowledge or being a hypocrite.

>>2052529
All kinds of people don't pay taxes, dick. But the average homeless guy can still vote and get a public defender in court.

>>2052483
>it was a democracy where the franchise is limited to people who have served in the military OR the non-fighting auxiliary services.

I think the criticism of that would be that it would encourage militarism - although considering the greatest American warmongers nowadays are chickenhawks that expect other people's sons and daughters to die in wars they start...

>>2052553

>chickenhawks

exactly. People who do the fighting know what war is like, and they'd only undertake it if they felt the situation really demanded it.

>>2052553
I always forget about the Vietnam influences on the book.

>>2052571
>implying countries with the draft don't go on idiotic wars

Vietnam, anyone?

Heinlein's government would be less likely to go to war, as they more intimately know what the risks will be.

>>2052514
actually they had every right except the right to vote, also in universe people were actively discourage from joining the military by the government, so if its fascist it's a pretty weird version of it.

>>2052581
There aren't any, it was written immediately after the Korean War, when people wanted a bolder military instead of a less aggressive one.

>>2052582
But children of "important people" were exempted from the draft. So the only people being drafted were the ones with no political connections.

>>2052588
>right to vote

yep, totally trivial...indeed, if it was, why would the Earth government make it so fucking hard to get?

Sounds like an authoritarian ploy to consolidate power if you ask me.

>>2052582
At least quite a few of the politicians and others behind that had served in World War 2/Korea:
Have any of the current warmongers itching for a showdown with Iran served - and in actual combat at that?

>>2052597
Welcome to any draft ever. In the ST universe, the government decides what you do. I bet the elites would STILL decide who would get to be a desk jockey and who would get to be bug food.

do remember the military is an all-volunteer establishment in the book

ergo; no draft.

>>2052521

The book basically says:

If you fuck up, you pay the price, no matter what.

If you work hard, you will be rewarded.

If you sit around and whine, nobody will care.

>>2052622
>heavy coercion=all volunteer

>>2052553
so if someone is a civilian they should have no say in what the military does?

>ask why expecting people to pay for their mistakes and at the same time getting them rewards for working hard is supporting facism

Needs elaboration

>>2052615
>nobody in gov't seved
Well one thing to note is that the active military makes up only 0.5% of the population. The number of veterans is much higher than this, but if military service has no bearing on being elected or not the percentages should be relatively low.

>>2052632
Join or don't vote. Not a draft, it's a choice on what is important to you; safety or franchise.

>>2052628
>If you work hard, you will be rewarded.

Tell that to the SOBs who got ripped to shreds on the sands of Klendathu.

>>2052606

>Rico's family is rich
>They lack the right to vote/hold public office

Seems fair to me, if you aren't going to serve then fuck you, you don't get to rule.
And after Five years of service a rich fucknut will either die or realize how pathetic he is

>>2052646
They chose to serve, dumbass. You don't pick and choose what happens in a war.

>>2052663
I'm only saying it calls in to question your theory that the book's message is that hard work will always equal success.

>>2052646
They did more damage to the bugs than what took them. Marauder power armor isn't anything to be sneezed at.

You're obviously not telling the entire story. I made a similar comment in a Political Theory class and the professor told me there is a lot of merit in that way of though and the class proceeded to have a civil discussion about it.

>>2052663

>>2052597

>draft

Um... You realise in the first chapter or so they get lectured BY THE RECRUITER on why they shouldn't sign up. Then they get a 24-hour grace period to chicken out if they want.

>>2052646

But they knew the risks, and the tard who put Operation Bughouse in effect was disgraced, losing his pension and franchise.

>>2052682
Well if we're more concerned with the outcomes of society than with those of individuals, that can tend to be a fascist outlook.

>>2052683
The OP is obviously leaving out crucial elements of the story. I'm thinking he probably went off on a tangent and made a fool of himself. He's clearly a hot headed young man, given that he'd even take the time to make a thread about it that is riddled with f bombs.

>>2052701
in the book he dies buying time for everyone else to evacuate.

OP can you post a screenshot of the e-mail you got from the professor? i have to see it to believe it.

>>2052701
>lose your franchise

Man, sure sounds like a weaselly thing to do to a guy after all the service he's rendered the state. The ole' bait-n-switch.

>>2052703

Society doesn't stand to gain by losing an entire army/taskforce/division/batallion to the enemy.

Units are hard to train. In war its almost always more beneficial to withdraw and regroup than to fight and die.

>>2052690
Don't forget that deserters aren't prosecuted. The motherfucker who murdered and raped a little girl deserted from basic. They executed him at the basic camp only because he was technically still in the service.

The problem people have with it is that it is realistic.

When you become part of the Military you become an unquestioning Arm of that Government. You do not have civilian rights of getting to question orders. Thats treason.

What I remember most about the novel is how horrifying it was. All the soldiers, including the narrator, were basically cannon fodder lined up. Citizenship seemed like some crass joke to lure people into "service".

But was it fascism? No. It was more like some twisted parody of institutionalized military. You're trussed up as a hero and a proper citizen and all that, but in reality it's just gravy that is put on you while you get served to the grinder.

>>2052714
Goddamn. Heinlein could just not get over his military fetish, huh? I see his years as a Navy paper pusher really imbued in him a love of uniforms and men going off and having adventures together.

>>2052722
I'm just saying it can be. Other elements would need to be present, which it certainly seems like they are in ST.

>>2052703

Well, they state in the book that the reason why you need to serve in the military to get enfranchisement, is because you will learn that you will need to work hard to get something valuable.

Fuck, if you're a crippled paraplegic they'll find a job for you, pushing buttons or something.

Is that worse than that we have now? Where mentally retarded people claim that society makes them retarded? Where women, blacks and trans people constantly shriek about the evils of white males while they sit on their asses, doing no work and expecting all the rewards?

>>2052733
>canon fodder
You didn't read the book.

>>2052746
>Where women, blacks and trans people constantly shriek about the evils of white males while they sit on their asses, doing no work and expecting all the rewards?

See, saying asinine stuff like this is why the teacher is forced to send you emails about your class behaviour.

>>2052733
Except, Heinlein didn't MEAN it as satire.

>According to Heinlein, his desire to write Starship Troopers was sparked by the publication of a newspaper advertisement placed by the National Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy on April 5, 1958 calling for a unilateral suspension of nuclear weapon testing by the United States. In response, Robert and Virginia Heinlein created the small "Patrick Henry League" in an attempt to create support for the U.S. nuclear testing program. During the unsuccessful campaign, Heinlein found himself under attack both from within and outside the science fiction community for his views. Starship Troopers may therefore be viewed as Heinlein both clarifying and defending his military and political views of the time.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers#Heinlein.27s_military_background_and_political_views

>expecting people to pay for their mistakes
Is signing up for the military a mistake? If so, why is it rewarded with citizenship?

>getting them rewards for working hard is supporting facism

Keep in mind your definition of working hard is limited to state-sanctioned violence. It's not fascism, but unless you're in a history class I wouldn't expect anyone including the teacher to know what fascism actually is.

>whole class stares at me like I just denied the holocaust to happen

Which is the part we're all supposed to be outraged about, but you left out why they reacted that way.

>>2052454
The system was fascist though. It wasn't a meritocracy, it merely masqueraded as one.

>>2052495
Actually Robert hated hippies, when Stranger in a Strange Land started to catch on with the 60's counter culture, he sent out a clear warning he would fuck up any hippy who approached him.

>>2052682

Nope.

In the book, there are 10k MI soldiers.

The bugs can hatch half a million in a month. As soon as the bugs hatch, they're ready to kick ass and take names. I mean, a MI literally would need to kill millions and millions of bugs for it to be fair. The MI does missions, and rates success off that, not....kills. What are you, a fucking american? Hur hur hur we killed so many chinks we wun vatname

>>2052762
Heinlein believed in nuclear tech, and he found the whole 'we shouldn't do it cause its scary and can be a weapon' as bullshit. He wasn't a hippie either, they just jumped on strange land because it was Fight the Power.


What Heinlein cared about most was civilian participation. he has a book somewhere that's actually pretty good, teaching people how to get involved in politics without becoming a shill.

Starship troopers was written showing how the lakc of participation in government fucks everything up(the only ones that care to become civilians set all the policy, everyone else just hides and lets the government do their shit)

>>2052778

12ft electrified fence

>>2052762
>Starship Troopers may therefore be viewed as Heinlein both clarifying and defending his military and political views of the time.
Jumping to conclusions much? There's a lot to Starship Troopers and there are parts where is fairly clear he doesn't think the ST society is ideal.

Think of it more as an angry old man dreaming of a world where society recognized that hippies should be ignored.

>>2052764

I'll be honest with you dude, the entire post in the OP didn't even happen, I just wanted to discuss the book with some people from /pol/, I mean, have you ever even heard of a university class that would teach this book?

Protip: http://gsearch.sparknotes.com/search?q=Starship+troopers&template=default&output=xml_no_dtd&
amp;oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&client=default_frontend&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&site=
default_collection

If there isn't a Sparknotes page, it isn't getting taught.

Unless your professor is troll tier and he trots out an out of print novel.

>Why the fuck are the 'intellectual elite' at any given university a bunch of limp-wristed fuckheads?

In what fucking university are they assigning you Starship Troopers?

>>2052815
Fair enough, what parts?

>>2052824

Sounds like something Berkeley would do to try and make you hate conservatives.

>>2052606

Why should Shanequa, who does NOTHING but breed and collect welfare for her 20+ kids, have the same power to influence and effect change (vote) as a productive member of society?

>>2052883

Nobody even knows what conservatives are

>>2052889
You're fucking retarded if you think it's anywhere near the same as Warren Buffet.

>>2052889

Let it be known that I am 100% in favor of taking voting rights away from straw men.

The real outrage here is forcing undergrads to read Starship Troopers.

>>2052896

All that matters is to establish that conservative, republican, and libertarian are bad words to be feared.

>>2052821

>I just wanted to discuss the book with some people from /pol/
>Why the fuck are the 'intellectual elite' at any given university a bunch of limp-wristed fuckheads?
>liberal arts students fucking idiots

Since you're being honest now, you might as well stick with it. Did you really want to discuss this book, or as the above comments suggest, just wallow in your political ideology with like-minds?

If it's the former, which I both hope and doubt it is. I don't believe that any truly fascist society would tolerate a citizenship duality like the one Heinlein describes. Mandatory military service would create the unifying characteristics of a fascist society much better than meritocratic exclusion.

>>2052930

Confirmed for no higher education.

ITT: Fags who don't have what it takes to be a citizen.

>>2052949

I posted the same question on three different boards. :D

I don't really have a political affiliation. I'm just interested in seeing what pol thinks

>>2052495
Stranger in a Strange Land. Charles Manson had a well-thumbed copy.

>>2053008
Blackboard is used by damn near everyone. Also the OP admitted that it was a hoax.

Wow.
Just read through the whole thread and most of you guys either didn't read it, or didn't read it well.
OP, you seem on the ball.
But no one mentioned WHY you had to serve in order to earn the right to vote (and for the record, the book is absolutely right in how it deals with the idea of 'innate morality' and it's non-existence with having to teach people the proper way to live in a society).
You have to serve your two years because after serving your two years you're guaranteed to be able to demonstrate the trait that the fictionalized society values most in regards to its voting populace - you place the needs of others above the needs of yourself.
That's the trait they want to see in people who vote and serving in the military is their way of guaranteeing that trait is there.
Earning the right to vote at 18 for us is supposed to come with 'maturity' and 'altruistic behavior' because we see it as an innate quality of man. By virtue of being 18 you earn the right to vote. But as Heinlein explains in the section on the class in high school, that idea is shit.

>>2052889
because the argument is that people have an inherent right to determine their own fate though voting,

>>2053033
Ya, and Heinlein points out 'inherent rights' are a load of crock.

>>2053032
If there is no innate morality, how can people be expected to teach it to others in the first place?

>>2053070
O_O really?
There is no innate understanding of logic and mathematics and we teach those.

>>2052978

In This Post: a fag who thinks playing Gears Of War counts as active duty.

>>2053070
No innate understanding of language, writing, shapes, or colors, and we teach those.

>>2053095
Serve or choke on shit and die

>>2053079
>>2053104
Disregarding self-taught individuals.

>>2052978
>>2053112
The movie had NONE of the philosophy of the book.
Shame really, but would have made for a weird film.

>>2053033

people DO have an inherent right to determine their own fate...but when they show that they cant tell the difference between there ass and a hole in the ground
why should they have a right to determine the fate of others?

>>2053124
And a non-profitable one.

>>2053124
>but would have made for a weird film.
Why?

>>2053062
I thought his argument was more that rights only exist so far as we want them to and that we shouldn't depend on others to respect them, so we have to be prepared to defend them.

>>2053128
The rub is who determines whether or not they can make the "right" choices?

>>2053122
What the hell are you talking about?
Self-taught means they took the available information and read it themselves without the guidance of a tutor.
You don't honestly think, as your statement implies, that self-taught individuals 'rediscover' or 'invent' all the concepts mankind has achieved as they go about their intellectual journey?
This is preposterous, and of course you don't mean that, but you didn't think before you typed.
Try and make another point because that one was fantastically out there.

>>2053124

Yeah. It would have just pissed people off, an made them umcomfortable. And they're remaking it and making it more faithful to the book, but I can only assume that means that the movie will have power armor and otherwise be a remake of the movie.

Because god damn, that is not an action movie.

But neither is Ender's Game so we'll see.

>>2053128
>why should they have a right to determine the fate of others?
This. A thousand times this.

>>2053132
did you happen to notice how badly atlas shrugged did at the box office? imagine a sci fi version of that.

>>2053138
Not at all. In a society you should expect people to respect the rights of the people in the society, but he states that those rights are not something innate to the person but rather a reflection of the agreement between people. You don't have to defend your rights, that's the government's job. You just have to demonstrate that you're capable of being responsible with those rights, and the society understands that it can't hold you accountable for something that wasn't taught to you. Hence the points about teaching morals, and serving in the military to guarantee you place others ahead of yourselves.

Starship Troopers is obviously a fascist book because it's about war, but doesn't have a "war is hell" message like other war novels such as Catch-22 and All Quiet on the Western Front. Therefore, liberals do not approve.

>>2053132
A book is able to take a break from 'action' to go on a cerebral journey. Movies rarely get such a luxury.

>>2052903

There wouldn't be people like Warren Buffet in the Federation

>>2053218
Thou didst not read the book methinks.

wow OP thanks for confirming my suspicions of what would happen if I objected to my white feminist lecturers constant remarks every class of "white men are finished"

If you are using the blackboard system I take it you are in university?

the people in starship troopers live under a cryptofascist expansionistic regime devoted to patriotism itself, now remember that the bugs didn't have an orbital defense, there were no bugs in the space around their planet, are we just supposed to accept that this terrestrial bound race of specialised insects somehow had the ability to chuck asteroids across the galaxy?

It was a false-flag attack on Earth by earth's neofascist regime to stir the populace to conquer the mineral rich earth-like world of the bug, Rico himself in the novel mentions many "'incidents,' 'patrols,' or 'police actions.'" before the attack.

>>2053271
No.

>>2053288

Yes.

>>2053271

The war in the book starts long before Buenos Ares gets smeared you fucking jabbering monkey.

Kill yourself and prevent all projeny

>>2053218
>doesn't have a "war is hell" message like other war novels
It absolutely did, just in a more irreverent or matter-of-fact style. Johnny Rico has all sorts of shit happen to him that he just has to shrug off.

hell, it doesn't even defend any of the "conservative" policies that humanity's government has, and Heinlein contemplates how fair/effective they are at various points in the book. Just because it doesn't explicitly suggest liberal ideals doesn't mean the right gets to claim it as conservative literature. It's like claiming that that a cyberpunk author advocates the abolition of gun control, owning night-vision goggles, or having robotic arms just because that's the world they write about.

Robert Heinlein - the rich man's Jerry Pournelle.

He's still shitty though.

The movie's script was originally a generic sci fi action movie called "Bug Hunt" that somebody realized was superficially similar to Heinlein's book, and so they adapted it. The movie is an intentional misreading of the book on top of that.

Op trying to be edgy but fails miserably
silly kid, just keep your mouth shut and ride it through.
go home and relax. Why stress about stupid shit like that? Next thing you know you'll be sucked into feminist movements and that activism crowd, not worth it.

>>2053184

And Atlas Shrugged wasn't sci-fi?

>>2052571
That's not always true. Members of a military caste often view war as an opportunity for career advancement. For example West Point's class of 1915 was considered especially fortunate.

>>2052586
Wasn't Henlein's government in a state of perpetual war though?

>>2053637

No. The war begins when Rico is in training, and there is a mention early on in the novel from Rico's father, he says that its a useless part of the government these days(the military) which I would say implies that there hasn't been a real war for a long time. I think that the recruiter also tells them it's peacetime.

>>2053637
Maybe not perpetual, I thought there was some kind of peace accords they were working out with the skinnies, but the bugs were such a threat that the skinnies decided to hold out for better terms with humanity.

There is some discussion that humanity knows they can live in peace with the skinnies, but since they are unable to have any communication with expansionist bugs they're forced to fight. Of course the humans are expansionist too.

>>2052824
I could see it being assigned, but the problem is that it would be assigned for a senior level or graduate level seminar with the seminar theme being future/dystopias.

just wondering, because I haven't read it yet but want to.

Doesn't anyone who serves the community get the right to vote, teachers, soldiers and public servants in general?

>>2052454

>mfw people think Starship troopers is Machiavelli's the Prince
Holy shit OP wtf is up with that?
The worst thing I can think about with the federation is the implication that they started the war with the bugs to make way for colonization but that's it the society while not a perfect utopia had a lot of good ideas that are usually criticized whenever the book is discussed.

TOLERANCE!
Until you have an idea slightly different than us!

Have you . . .read Heinlein OP? Like, if you had read more than one book, his politics are pretty fucked up.

heinlein loved him some militarism

I for one think this is one of the best plans ever laid out for a human society with hopes of thrieving and beings trong.

wait, the way I remember it the only right serving gave you was to vote

>>2055067
>thrieving and beings trong.

>thriving amongst thieves with the sentient Trong beings.

Was the book similar to the movie? I've never read it but in the movie their society is ridiculously fascist, so fascist they make a joke out of it.

>>2052454
>in an English language class or really anything in the Liberal Arts faculty
>surprised the prof and 99% of the students are insufferable Marxist fucks

Just keep your head down and ignore it. Also, if you're in any undergrad class the prof does not want to hear your opinion -- he or she is too busy with whatever actually interests him/her to deal with originality from first-year students, of which he has dozens to deal with. She will instead be marking you based on how well you listened to everything she had to say.

So, by all means draw your own conclusions and hate those useless fucks you're locked into a classroom with, but keep it to yourself and show your prof you listened. You don't have to agree, but just show her you listened.

Fun Fact: Starship Troopers is on the Marine Corps Officers recommended reading list.

(Probably there not just because of it's politics, but because Heinlien was a Marine.)

>>2055137

Okay, ill give you an 4/10 for that subtle troll saying Heinlein was a marine instead of being in the navy.