So wait - you want your state to legalise abortion but you..what, won't work for it? want the big federal government to force it? I don't understand this. It's unconstitutional to enforce policies (even though I am pro choice) across the entire country.

If you can't get a state like texas to legalise abortion, move somewhere else.

Did you ever think that a sensible woman might not decide to fuck a guy with no contraceptives if she didn't want to have kids?

Inb4 hurr but rape

> i want to murder my unborn child wahhhhh

>>1153205
It's actually not unconstitutional under the incorporation doctrine, but I ultimately don't care who protects my rights. Rights should never be violated, regardless of is passing the laws. The entire system of laws loses its legitimacy if it violates fundamental rights.

>>1153206
Maybe that's true. That has nothing to do with whether women have a right to an abortion. No one has the right to control my body that way. This is like saying it's really dumb for people to get fat, ergo it's okay to make people lose weight by forcing them to go to the gym under penalty of law. Besides, contraceptives fail and people make silly mistakes sometimes.

Ron Paul doesn't like abortion but he realises government does not have the legal right to mandate its prohibition. Too bad most stupid people think that personal believes have to relate to what you impose on all others if you're in a position of power.

It is unfortunate most people are so scared about losing their rights or personal values that they are willing to step on other people's rights if they get into a position of power, as a pre-emptive move to protect their own. This is so ass-backwards and a fundamental problem with our country now.

seriously maybe if it wasn't legal women will be more careful about it instead of just scrambling the babbys brains and queefing it out

single-issue voters are a cancer.

>>1153228
http://www.extremeink.com/awtk/2007/12/ron-pauls-incorporation-problem.html

>incorporation doctrine, its impact, and the result of.

Abortion is a non-issue to a "sensible woman" because if she's really "sensible" she wouldn't need to get one in the first place

QED

>>1153235
Yes, he does believe that. He personally reintroduced the Sanctity of Life act because it would make abortion into murder. You are full of shit.

>>1153243
And maybe people would be healthier if fat people were sent to reeducation camps. That doesn't make sending them there morally acceptable.

>>1153251
I consider other issues as well, I just want it to be clear that this issue is of paramout importance. Making abortion illegal makes women the slaves of unintelligent cell blobs.

>>1153253
The incorporation doctrine is legally defensible. You might believe it has lead to numerous harms, but it is clearly one plausible way to interpret the 14th amendment. Let's just stick to the moral debate.

>>1153258
>rape doesn't exist

This is what morons really believe!

>>1153235

"Leave it to the states" would sound more reasonable if it weren't ALREADY legal. All delegating it to the states will do now is result in millions of women who can currently get abortions being denied them, so remind me again why any woman should vote for this crazy old misogynist?

>He really wants to give it to the states so they can restrict access to abortion and limit the rights of women to control their own reproductive organs.

You're fucking stupid, children are their PARENTS dna, does that give parents the right to kill their 10 year old kid? The guberment is trying to control your genes and reproductive organs omg, why can't I kill my son, stupid guberment!

I'm not even pro-life but you're fucking retarded to use that as an argument and not the argument that the fetus has no intellectual consciousness. It's like you're saying intelligence and pain doesn't matter just womens awesome feminist rights to their stupid fucking organs and women should have the right to kill their 8 month baby because it's in THEIR WOMB and not the governments,

>How can any sensible vote vote for Ron Paul

I'm a woman and I'm voting for him. Abortion is a non-issue for me.

>>1153270
>moral debate

then it always comes down to where you draw the line between "blob of cells" and "small human." this may be handled differently state by state, I know there are lots of weird abortion laws all over, but as far as roe v wade goes there is no accounting for age as long as it hasn't popped out of a vagina yet.

I think if you want to use the "clump of cells" argument you at least have to compromise on a cut off point somewhere earlier than that. Quite a bit earlier actually.

Quote from OP: "The NDAA doesn't affect many people."

It actually affects the right of Habeas Corpus to every American citizen.

Are you that much of a liar? Or are you just completely ignorant?

>>1153310
Can the state force you to give your organs to someone who will die without them?

In any case, a fetus is not like a 10 year old child. It is an unintelligent creature and therefore has no rights at all.

>>1153326
Roe vs Wade allows states to ban third trimester abortions, actually. With that said, no fetuses are really people. Newborn infants probably aren't people either, given that they have no ability to think.

>>1153259
WRONG, slut.

The Sanctity of Life act defines personhood as beginning at conception; this invalidates Roe v. Wade, making abortion no longer federally PROTECTED.

The circumstances under which it is legally acceptable to kill a "person" are, and always have been, the purview of STATE governments. This is why murder, manslaughter, acceptable self defense, negligence, reckless endangerment, and assisted suicide are ALL decided at the STATE level. SoLA simply adds abortion to this list. Hence Massachussets might agree with you; it is acceptable to "take a life" up through the second trimester. Whereas Kansas might not, and Virginia might agree with me, and say it's acceptable to "take a life" up through only the first trimester.

IT IS NOT A FEDERAL BAN ON ABORTION.

>>1153352
It theoretically affects it. In reality very few people will be detained as a result of the NDAA, and most of them will in fact have ties to terrorist groups. A few people will be fucked over, but not many.

>>1153295
>it's ok to shoot people in self defense therefore it should be legal to shot people just because

Pregnancies from rape are an extremely rare exception and should be treated as such if you believe it's a justification.

Damn. Am I the only person who doesn't give a shit that it is a living human being inside the womb? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. The pro choicers are always going on about it just being a 'parasite' or 'collection of cells that may one day be human', and the lifers are well, psychotic as always. It's like I'm the only sergal that thinks a woman's reproductive rights trump the little human's life inside of her.

Its a religious and social issue, if pro-lifers want to change anything it needs to be a community outreach. Abortions though, should not be paid for by taxpayers. Deal with it.

>People still not using the pill/morning after pill/condoms/spermicide/prophylactics/sexual techniques such as the pull out method/fucking abstinence etc.

There are a million ways to prevent pregnancy, Abortion should have become a non-issue by now.

MFW Women are some of the biggest opponents of abortion

>>1153362
You are technically right, but it was designed to allow a federal ban on abortion to take place, as it could not as long as Roe vs Wade remained good law. The goal was to make it illegal in the same sense that drugs are made illegal by the federal government. Secondly, it was designed to allow people to sue in court and prohibit abortion as a violation of rights or stop their spouses from getting abortions. Thirdly, as you note, it was intended to support state abortion bans, which Paul does support. It is a childish lie to say he does not want states to ban abortion.

>>1153381
While I disagree with your view of abortion ( I think the government should fund it) your position is far more reasonable than Paul's. Paul wants abortion to be stopped period.

>>1153354
>Roe vs Wade allows states to ban third trimester abortions, actually.
Yeah that's what I was saying. States can do their thing.

>With that said, no fetuses are really people. Newborn infants probably aren't people either, given that they have no ability to think.

Kind of the inevitable conclusion of this line of thinking

Here is a video of Paul saying we must protect the "unborn".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auwq_5xA3u4&feature=related


Why do Paulfags lie and say he doesn't want abortion to be stopped?

>americans caring more about the stupid vagina and queef problems of a bunch of whores than about world peace and freedom
You all deserve to be put into fema camps.

>>1153407
Because that would mean admitting to themselves that Paul isn't the messiah of freedom.

>>1153393
Oh, but I think abortion IS wrong.

>>1153417
> fundamental right to control your body

> stupid

herd derp libertarians care about freedom

>No one has the right to control my body that way.
How arrogant. It may be your body but if you are female and fertile, you have the capacity to create new life and that deserves no less respect and dignity as you'd expect/demand yourself.
>This is like saying it's really dumb for people to get fat, ergo it's okay to make people lose weight by forcing them to go to the gym under penalty of law.
>Thats a really really bad analogy. How the hell do you equate the responsibility of becoming pregnant and aborting to getting fat?
>Besides, contraceptives fail and people make silly mistakes sometimes.
You are an imbecile. A silly mistake is a fucking typo or saying the wrong thing to someone. If you are a woman you have added responsibility fucking deal with it.

>>1153381
>There are a million ways to prevent pregnancy, Abortion should have become a non-issue by now.

fucking seriously

>>1153385
Of course he wants states to ban abortion. And you and I don't.

The idea behind decentralization of government is to reduce the negative impact of one-size-fits-all government. YES Paul wants to see abortion banned. And YES Paul wants to see heroin legalized. And NO he's not about to try to make either of those decisions for every single American all at once.

In a perfect Paulian America, the outrage at states' rights would result in, get this, STATE Constitutionalism, and a drive to reduce the authority of state governments and return it once more to county seats... And then county seats would be pressured to hand it over to municipal and local governments.

THAT'S THE IDEA. To remove universal control. To give each citizen a REAL fucking say in how his government operates, and a REAL fucking ability to move down the road if he gets sick of how things are being handled.

It's the closest approximation to free-market law Americans are going to see in HIS lifetime, anyway.

>2012
>not reading about why Ron Paul votes what he votes for

>>1153430
abortion is a point of contention under libertarian ideology because the possible rights of the fetus are a philosophical question not a political one. I believe the official big L Libertarian platform is "it is what it is right now, don't ask about it"

>>1153431
My response to him was that the fact that women could stop themselves from getting pregnant by taking reasonable steps is wrong. There are a lot of people who do stupid things; their right to do stupid things to their body is a fundamental right.


The argument you are making is different. Your argument is that women have a greater responsibility because they create new life. My response to that argument is that I do not value life. Grass is alive. Skin cells are alive. Lots of things without rights are "alive". The real question is whether fetuses deserve the same rights as people, and my view is that they do not because they lack the ability to think. They are less intelligent than dogs.

>>1153354

>Can the state force you to give your organs to someone who will die without them?

A fetus is it's own DNA and it belongs to itself, can you kill an endangered animal living on your property?


>In any case, a fetus is not like a 10 year old child. It is an unintelligent creature and therefore has no rights at all.

Yes, but when the Christians argue that it is life I wish people would argue that it is not life instead of women arguing that it's their body and they can destroy it whether it's alive or not.

they could straight up outlaw abortion,

it wouldn't stop it happening

this issue is completely irrelevant

you think the feds are going to be raiding abortion clinics the way they do medical marijuana dispensaries?

because if you do, you're a fucking retard

>>1153455
But that's just it. I disagree with that point of view, since I don't think that people should be free to oppress other people at any level of government. Should slavery be left to local governments? What about voting rights law? Should Chicago be able to decide women should not be able to vote? If you grant that something is a RIGHT then no one has the right to violate it. Period.

>>1153468
Fair enough, but I was responding to someone whose view is clearly retarded. Abortion is clearly an important issue even if you believe that a fetuses deserves to have rights. Taking away the bodily autonomy of another person is always serious.

>>1153469
if "less intelligent than dogs" is the criteria we should really bump the the up to like 25 I'm just saying. You pretty much have the same legal rights as a dog until you're 18 anyway.

And like... you age back in to the abortable range at ~40 when you start deteriorating

>>1153492
>Taking away the bodily autonomy of another person is always serious unless you're taxing their labor

ftfy

>>1153474
I certainly thing that I should be able to kill any animal which tries to attach itself to my body in some way. Endangered animals have rights in a derivative way- we choose to give them rights when it suits us. I do not believe that they should be able to use the body of an actual person.

It is "alive". The real question is whether it should have rights. Your skin cells are "alive" and so are trees.

>>1153485
Yes, I do believe that they would try to raid abortion clinics. Abortion is not like marijuana, people on the ground actually want to stop abortion.

>>1153515
i'm familiar with this argument, but I don't really buy it. Taxing the use of property is not the same as forcing someone to undergo severe hormonal chances, gain a great deal of weight, and go through childbirth. Libertarians that think they are the same are certifiably crazy. In any case, that's not an argument against my position.

>>1153430
the problem is that some people (justifiably) feel that life begins at conception. They want to protect the life of that organism. ITs not even a religious only argument. When two sex cells combine they create a new DNA strand combining the two haploid cells.

Abortion is murder. You don't have the 'right' to murder another human being simply because it depends on you.

>>1153548
I don't believe their view is justified. As I said before, lots of things are alive. A tree is alive and has unique DNA. A cow is alive and has unique DNA. The question is whether a fetus has rights. It doesn't.

>>1153367

0.5/10

>>1153572
Her argument seems pretty reasonable to me

>>1153544
The physical stress of some jobs is 100 times worse. And it doesn't end after 9 months give or take some recovery time.

I know it wasn't an argument against the point, it just popped into my head since what you said was basically that guys argument in court that got him out of paying income taxes, I'll stop trying to derail

>>1153599
But the government isn't mandating that you do those jobs, it's implementing general tax policies that affect everyone.

YEAH WOMEN LOVE DEATH

BLOOD AND GUTS

YEAH FUCK LIFE

>>1153520

> Yes, I do believe that they would try to raid abortion clinics.

then you are a hysterical liberal idiot

or you are just trying to justify voting for obama again

you honestly think they would put people in prison in america for abortions?

lololololololololololololololol

>>1153618
Not OP, but you are deluding yourself if you think the pro-life movement would not shut down abortion clinics if they had the power. They might not send women to jail but they wouldn't need to.

>>1153367
Except what defines a "terrorist group" could change at any time. Anonymous? OMG hacker anarchist group! It's a stretch but I can see some fascist bureaucrat that would feel justified locking most of us up.

I can understand her considering abortion-related laws to be just as paramount, though too, although that's wrong, but whatever.

Hey OP, what about mandating so for abortions, legal considerations to the father be made? Of course they wouldn't have final say, but with regards to abortion rights, and reproductive rights in general, the fathers are essentially pariahs.

>>1153295
>implying a "sensible woman" wouldn't have gotten a hysterectomy as soon as physically possible

Anyone that hasn't voluntarily removed their ability to reproduce has no right to call themselves "sensible" in today's world

>>1153635

then people would just start doing abortions out of home offices as was done for decades

>>1153637
except the law specifically says "al Qaeda" and "assisted in the 9/11 attacks"

>>1153637
And Congress could theoretically vote to build a 10 billion dollar statue of Cicero. That doesn't mean it is going to happen. The NDAA is a minor issue.


nope. not the father's body.

>>1153520

>It is "alive". The real question is whether it should have rights. Your skin cells are "alive" and so are trees.

You can't kill endangered trees. You're also all ignoring the fact that all these fucking whores could just be more careful but "teehee, my body!'. Nobody would let you kill an endangered creature attached to your body either, you could just wait 9 months then give it to some animal shelter or adoption agency.

Shit, you know that adult humans aren't even alive either right? Not any more than trees, we are just biological robots so why do our human lives matter? Those cells aren't alive, they have no soul, and you don't have a soul either so you aren't alive. It's atheism that makes those cells worthless, and another level of atheism makes you worthless as well.

>>1153651
and plenty of them would die


lol

>>1153668
>nope. not the father's body.
Fucking women.

>>1153671
If an endangered tree was fucking up your body like pregnancy does, I absolutely believe most people would be okay with you killing it. I know I would. And now, no one thinks it would be reasonable to force a human being to undergo something like pregnancy to save a panda.

Adult people can think, that is what makes them people, and what gives them rights. Duh.

>>1153668
>nope. not the father's body.

Fair enough, but only if we remove the legal obligation of child care payments from fathers. His labor, and by extension the money earned from it, is a sacrifice of his body after all.

Fucking women. Guess what, you don't have the right to kill another human being. That baby is inside of you, but that babies body is not your body. That babies life is not your life. You have no right to kill a human fucking being. Adopt if you really don't want the kid. Even if you are raped, the CHILD is still innocent.

Why are women allowed to vote? In a past era OP would have been taught that politics was a man's business and spend her life happily with her family. And she wouldn't have worried about abortion because she would have been taught not to be a whore.

>>1153558
You say it doesn't. I say it does. See how that works? Stating your position doesn't make you correct nor does it convince anyone.

Abortion should be illegal with exceptions for cases of deformities, mental issues, endangerment of the mother's life (note: birth complications not economic issues) and rape.

It should remain illegal until we can establish artificial wombs at which point it becomes a process by which the fetus is moved to an artificial womb paid for by the mother and father jointly, if economic circumstance prevents her from paying THEN public healthcare can pick up the tab. If the father can't be found then the woman just pays her half.

I say this all because yes, women do have the right to control their body but not at the expense of another life (or potential life) however you want to call it. You're biologically different than a man, you serve a different biological role. The thing that pisses me off about feminism is that it seems not to acknowledge this. E.G. men have more testosterone and muscle mass for a reason, you CANT TREAT GENDERS EXACTLY THE SAME, THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

>>1153705

I don't think I agree but don't want to derail this thread with that debate.


>>1153709
This has mainly been covered already.....With that said, you ought to grant that rape victims should have access to abortion. Even if fetuses have rights, they do not have rights that other people do not have. No one has the right to use your physical body in order to live (ie take your kidney) and if a woman was raped she never consented to the pregnancy.

>>1153485

getting your weed illegally is one thing because the product aint that different. getting a fucking medical procedure? jesus christ you tard

jesus christ there'll always be coathangers and pop bottles to shove up your cunt

I do think women should have a choice
but at the same time men should also have that choice

its not fair if the guy wants it but the girl doesn't
9/10 times the woman gets the choice
hey bitch If I could have a baby I would just shut the fuck up about your body

even if it you can claim that it isnt alive yet
it still will become life

>>1153674

> hey guys look, he doesn't know loads of plastic surgeons, etc. operate out of home offices already!

>>1153716
Women are different from men in some ways, but it is up to each individual woman to decide what sort of "role" she is meant to play. That is the very basis of freedom; the ability to choose your own goals based on your own values.


I know that stating my view does not make it right, but I am making an argument here. My view is that non-thinking creatures do not deserve rights. It is insane to think that a non-sentient fetus is equivalent to a human being, which is something you basically admit when you say you want an exception for women who are endangered by their pregnancies. I just can't see a reason to give fetuses rights.

>>1153383

Hey Norm, did you know homosex occurs in prison?

>>1153730
Regardless, adopt the child. This isn't something taking away from you, this is a human being that you're giving to the world. This is a new human life we're talking about. A clean slate. Something 100% innocent.

>>1153757
no UR a home office

>>1153757
Plastic surgeons do not operate out of their "homes" unless they have a medical practice set up there, and the whole point is that abortion clinics will be shut down. You can't do modern medicine on a kitchen table. You are an idiot.

>>1153779
And maybe that is a good reason for women who have been raped to choose to give their child up for adoption. If you can save the life of an innocent person by giving them your kidney you should probably do that too. The issue is whether the state can FORCE you to do it.

>>1153730
>I don't think I agree but don't want to derail this thread with that debate.

I understand

Shane though, it's a much more interesting one.

how many people here have taken illegal drugs, or driven home after a few too many beers, or pirated movies?

you think abortions being ZOMG ILLEGAL is actually going to cause both the supply and the demand to just disappear?

you realize that literally has never work for anything ever right?

alcohol prohibition, war on drugs, sodomy laws, etc...

all these laws fail because the people don't want them. legislation is irrelevant. if people want to do something they'll do it. if they don't want to do it they won't.

people will still get abortions.

this will hurt poor people and especially black poor people, sure.

it's going to hurt them a lot

but white people will continue to get their quiet little abortions just like they do now

but what else is new. if you haven't figured out that that's what it's all about in the end anyway then i don't know what to say

santorum and people like him will never be president. you can't run on a platform of hate and win in the US anymore

When does life begin? The line we draw is arbitrary.

>>1153817
Abortions require a modern medical facility in order to be safe. Smoking a joint does not.

>>1153699

>If an endangered tree was fucking up your body like pregnancy does, I absolutely believe most people would be okay with you killing it.

It does not fuck with you any more than annoying shitbird or bug on your property, your statement would only be true if it was endangering the life of a women.

>Adult people can think, that is what makes them people, and what gives them rights. Duh.

Just a bunch of chemical biological triggers to gain power, mate and die. Why do humans deserve rights when it's all about mating and power and none of you have souls? Morality is a religious concept or at best sometimes used in nature to help pass on the genes of the herd while sacrificing yourself, if I feel that my genes are the best though than morality doesn't exist and the only right another humans has is to die for me or if they possess power to hurt me then I guess I owe them rights on MY behalf for my safety.

I am right and people will only argue with me to ensure their ideal position in society or the imaginary position in their mind, you're all just pushing an agenda, none of you are arguing facts.

>>1153782

home practice on your gated property. women go in barely showing, come out no longer pregnant.

oh it was just a regular physical

done

you're talking about raiding people's home MID-ABORTION

it's absurd

really think about how much work you're talking about

and all on the taxpayer's dime. and this is assuming it passes congress and doesn't get appeals (it would) and that any president would actally commit ritual poltical suicide by abiding it's passing when at minimum 49% of the population would completely abhor this law

get fucking real

the anti gay shit, the anti women shit, the anti minority shit, it's just to rope in the crazy vote

it's desperation

none of these fuckhead would actually try to make abortion illegal

it's just a good talking point and it gets people fired up and ready to hit the polls and get that nigra out of office!!!1!!

>>1153817
If it is illegal, it's a bit easier to tell if someone got an abortion. An investigation could easily fix things and put the bitch in prison for murder. I mean, suppose we live in a country where abortion is 100% illegal. You have a friend who was 20 weeks prego. Her belly is definitely noticeable. Then you see her again a couple weeks later and that belly is gone. There's only really two logical answers for that. Miscarriage or abortion. Again, a criminal investigation would show which one it is.

>>1153845
I stopped reading when you said being pregnant is no more annoying than having an animal on your property. You're either a troll or extremely, extremely stupid.

>>1153817
legalized marijuana will disproportionately affect poor black people too. Big corporations selling joints by the carton will destroy street dealers' business

>>1153855
Do you really think you could conceal an abortion practice? You are a total moron.

>>1153730
>This has mainly been covered already.....With that said, you ought to grant that rape victims should have access to abortion. Even if fetuses have rights, they do not have rights that other people do not have. No one has the right to use your physical body in order to live (ie take your kidney) and if a woman was raped she never consented to the pregnancy.

So by that logic, if I divorce my wife and have to pay alimony or child support, it's ok to murder her because I never consented to pay.

The fact that it's an inconvenience to you does not give you the right to murder an infant.

>>1153840
>Abortions require a modern medical facility in order to be safe.

Then why aren't they subject to the same health codes as hospitals/clinics or even required to be performed by a medical professional?

>>1153768
I give the exception based on the idea if measuring the worth of two people. The fetus is an unknown, the woman is a known. Take the known.

Look, I could understand your first point from a personality, or sexuality based argument but reproductive roles are black and white. My problem is that abortion covers stupid. My suggestions ensures that if a woman gets pregnant from rape or carries a damaged or dangerous fetus she's covered. However I can't endorse abortion for women who use it to cover their ass when they do something stupid. There are over a dozen forms of birth control for both men and women, even permanent solutions.

I'll go one step further, we run a MASSIVE sexual education campaign for 10 years before we let this policy take effect and thus there are no excuses left other than "I didn't care enough to use birth control because I'm a retard" Or freak accident, which if it was the case? Fuck it, let her go ahead and abort if she can show she was on birth control. Hell, let's go even one further abortion isn't covered under health care but birth control is.

Call me a misogynistic fuck but I think that under these circumstances the rights of a potential life(blob of cells) trump those of a woman who couldn't be bothered to get birth control . Even from a societal and survival point of view considering that our population is in decline. The only reason it holds up is because of massive over breeding in the third world and subsequent immigration.

>>1153868

Pregnancy doesn't fuck up your body that much, it's not like chemo, you'll still be alive. It made me think of that family guy episode too, and that seemed pretty annoying. Though I guess I'll never be a women so for all I know pregnancy is worse than cancer or even getting ripped in half, god I am ignorant.

>>1153840

what are you not understanding

you know how many plastic surgeons in the us operate from home?

thousands

and they have state of the art facilities

it's like you guys think women will go to the illegal abortion clinic in broad daylight, then send the paper work to the insurance company for 'illegal abortion, may 1st 2013'

it blows my mind

if i actually believed there was any chance anyone could EVER get abortion banned in the west at this point in human history, i'd be appalled at this

but since there's simply no way it would ever happen in the first place, and even if it did it would be impossible to enforce, i am just appalled at you guys trying to scare people into not voting for ron paul

>>1153888
The fetus is known. We can measure brain activity and fetuses do not have higher intelligence. Ergo, they have no rights. I con't care if they are a "potential life".

>>1153855
Also, fuck homos. The majority only vote for the president that will allow them to marry, not the president that will be the best thing for this country as a whole.

Fuck women, the majority vote for the most attractive candidate, and don't know a damn thing about politics.

Fuck minorities. They either vote because someone black is running, or they don't vote at all.

Fuck white people. They only vote for a wide difference of opinions.

>>1153872

there are literally thousands of examples from history of people doing just that

>>1153905
How can you continue to misunderstand the point? You can't hide a state of the art facility, and if abortion clinics start getting shut down you will not be able to use your private clinic to give people abortions or you will get shut down. fuck dude, you are retarded

>>1153929
and when people had to do that lots of people died because it was dangerous and because they didn't have modern science

>>1153914
>fetuses do not have higher intelligence. Ergo, they have no rights

So a mentally disabled person or comatose person has no rights?

>>1153944
If a mentally disabled person is brain dead then they aren't a person at all and have no rights. Comatose people have higher order brain functions in many cases.

>>1153905
How many plastic surgeons will be willing to do abortions from home. (assuming abortion is illegal)Illegally. With risk of getting their licensees revoked?

So what if the brain activity is lower than yours. I bet you also don't think we should be out killing small critters for fun or protection of our crop. Those little animals are dumb fucks that don't even know they're going to die.

Steve Jobs was put up for adoption. Imagine if he got aborted. No iPod, no iPad, no iWhatever. The world would be quite a different place.

>>1153931

ok expert

tell me how you would tell the difference between a state of the art plastic surgery clinic and a state of the art abortion clinic?

do you even comprehend how many young doctors would open abortion clinics if they became illegal. do you have any comprehension what prhibition would do to the profits?

illegal abortion would be and HUGE black market

with rich white people willing to pay absurd amounts of money to keep their daughters safe durign the procedure.

imaging $400 abortions going for $20k a pop

doctors would be stupid not to get a cut of that

>>1153914
I meant that in the woman's favor. I agree with you, we know the fetus isn't self aware or intelligent and we don't know if it'll end up a drug addict or a doctor someday so we have to side with the woman in those situations. But when it isn't a woman's life in danger than there's no need for an abortion. Especially with the previously outlined steps. The only way you could possibly disagree would be if you felt it's your right to go around, knowingly fuck without birth control so you could get knocked up and then go get it aborted rather than spend 0$ on birth control. LiTERALLY THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN DISAGREE IS IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT YOU GO OUT AND FUCK WITHOUT BIRTH CONTROL AND USE REPEATED ABORTIONS AS YOUR METHOD OF CHOICE FOR BIRTH CONTROL.

>>1153938
>lots of people died because it was dangerous and because they didn't have modern science

Good. If a woman has an abortion she deserves the electric chair.

>>1153969
You don't think the government doesn't inspect these household offices? Eventually one doctor is bound to fuck up and reveal what he's really doing, then people will catch on, and then it's just not worth taking that risk.

>>1153956

> How many plastic surgeons will be willing to do abortions from home. (assuming abortion is illegal)Illegally. With risk of getting their licensees revoked?

every single female plastic surgeon in the US and about half the male ones, for starters

you realize doctors, are some of the most educated people in the country right?

and you know about the correlation between higher education and liberalism right?

right?

doctors go to africa to go elbow deep in AIDS babies just for the experience

and you think they aren't going to take advantage of the oppurtunity to do real good in their own country?

>>1153954
Brain dead =/= mentally disabled.


Let me put it differently for your tiny little Jew-brainwashed mind:

Are you saying that mentally retarded individuals have no rights and should be euthenized?

>>1153970
I do think that. If a fetus has no rights, women have the right to decide whether they want to get an abortion. Period. You don't get to decide whether an abortion is necessary or not.

This is awesome.
I was just in a discussion where my counter argued "what does a ObGyn know about constitutional law"

So now I ask you. What does a constitutionalist know about when life begins in the womb?

This debate will go on for generations. It is the duty and right of the federal government to protect human life and enact laws to this end. "When does life begin?" becomes a very important question.

>>1153991

yeah i guess that's why when the first person got caught cooking meth everyone just stopped because it was too much of a risk

or the first time some big corporate big wig got smoked for insider trading

oh wait, that's not what happened at all

the money in black market abortions would justify the risks. once you add in the moral aspect of it, since most liberals believe abortion is a human right and not something the state gets to decide, you're whole argument is just sunk

>>1154002
If they exhibit higher intelligence the answer is no. A fetus has no intelligence, a retarded person is just less intelligent than other people. See the difference?

>>1153997
Do you know many doctors also believe life begins at conception? Again, I wouldn't want to risk the welfare of my family, and my livelihood, and my job just to kill babies all day for 40,000 dollars a baby. The money will be good, then I also run the chance of getting caught. Then my family has to suffer the consequences, and the government will take my money that I made killing babies.

>>1154004
Then I'll be frank. I think that your callous disregard for the reproductive process of the species is disturbing.

If it's oppression then so be it, women don't deserve the right to abort on a whim. Maybe I'd make the concession if men got some reproductive rights. Not in the sense of making your carry the child, that's unreasonable. But rather something like if a woman decides to keep the kid and the man wanted it aborted then she waves any right she has to child support. Likewise court bias toward female custody needs to go. What are your thoughts on those issues?

Also: same captchya 14 times in a row.

>>1154021

yeah if you get caught sure

but i counter that the risk of getting caught has NEVER in the HISTORY OF MANKIND

EVER

stopped ANYONE

from doing what they really wanted to do

if the risk of getting caught stopped you, then you didn't really want to do it in the first place

>>1154014
Those people are also low-lives, the ones who cook meth. They get caught all the time, and they have nothing to lose.

The big corporations are able to conceal bad business practice and price fixing. Of course, that didn't work out so well for ADM.

Hiding an abortion clinic is much harder than hiding a methlab, and is much harder than hiding a price fixing scam. Doctors have a lot to lose if they get caught.

>>1154036

people are not the perfect creations of god

they just think they are

there are loads of animals on earth that existed before us and that will exist after us

we're just a blip in the history of earth

get over yourself

>>1154041
I want to concealed carry a handgun in my state, but I can't, because it's illegal.

So do all the other law abiding citizens of my state.

The only people that do concealed carry are criminals, because it's currently illegal.

So, your point is now debunked.

>>1154041
>but i counter that the risk of getting caught has NEVER in the HISTORY OF MANKIND

>EVER

>stopped ANYONE

>from doing what they really wanted to do

Do you're an anarchist?

how can a sensible woman go around being a whore and not expect consequences but because shes a "woman" and "women are speshul" she can avoid the consequences of her actions by taking the life of another organism?

>>1154062
I'm an atheist.

>>1154047

ok

now what about doctors that have already had their medical liscences revoked for abortions

what do they have to lose now?

nothing

now their black marker abortion doctors

good job, you just created a whole new kind of career criminal.

and now, as you said, more women will die from illegal abortions

so in the end, you saved some foeti and you killed some actual human beings

so i guess you and those women can share a laugh over that irony in hell where you'll both be spending eternity for murder

>>1154062
people are not the perfect creations of god

they just think they are

there are loads of animals on earth that existed before us and that will exist after us

we're just a blip in the history of earth

get over your "reproductive rights"

>>1154016
>A fetus has no intelligence

Wrong. Brain activity, and therefore intelligence, is measureable as early as 40 days.

So if anything you can only claim fetuses have no rights until then, which is still a terrible position to hold as the child left unmolested will continue to develop.

>>1154075

then what the fuck are you going on about?

human beings have wiped out entier species

if anyone deserves to get killed off it's us

the earth and the animals on it will be 100000000 times better off once people are gone.

that's an undisputable fact

so i say just enjoy the ride. we aren't going to be here forever, so all these 'noble' attempts to save the human race are really just masturbation

you can't fight fate

>>1154066

i counter if you wanted your concealed gun more than you wanted to be a law abiding citizen, you would carry your gun

it's a choice you make

don't hide behind the state's legislation to justify your own cowardice

>>1154091

you think cockroaches give a fuck what the law of the land is?

no

they care about survival

you want reproductive rights, stick your dick in a woman and make a baby

you don't need the state to hold you cock for you while you fuck your girlfriend

and if you knock her up and want and abortion, take care of it.

don't just sit around crying because waaah waaah i can't do the things i want to because the state says so

fucking grow a pair

>>1154100
Why wont we be around forever? We're smarter than every other species on the planet, elephants perhaps come the closest in raw brainpower, chimps in tools. There's literally no reason to think that we're all going to die due to anything anytime soon. Technological advancement is only increasing exponentially and we're headed right for the singularity.

You see, if it was a another sentient species we had wiped out I'd care. I care about elephants for example since they're smart. But other than that I only care about two things. Humans and self aware species. I'm good friends with a number of people who would be dead, they would not exist if their mother had aborted them. One is on his way to becoming a physicist and experimental mathematician, he has a genius level IQ. What's his mother? She works at a fast food place and is addicted to drugs. I'd trade her life any day of the week for his. If she had aborted we would have lose a credit to humanity because a drug addicted whore was too stupid or lazy to use birth control.

We are now at an impasse. You think fetus' have no rights. I do. That's the end of it.

TL;DR fuck women's reproductive rights when they infringe on the rights of others.

>>1154159
lost* fuck getting no sleep.

>>1154159

of course we'll die out

we've only been around for 200,000 years

>>1154100

The amount of stupidity contained in this post is absolutely appaling, though I wouldn't expect anything other than blatant falsehoods, massive ignorance, and general 'derp' from an abortion advocate.

>>1154110
Me, personally, I don't want to go to jail because I concealed carry a weapon. I have a lot to lose if I go to jail.

And, more than likely, the practice of illegal abortions, then getting your medical license revoked... More than likely that doctor will go to jail for a long time, probably be under a watchful eye.

I can't tell if you're a troll, or just plain stupid.

>>1154180
Not sure if sarcasm/intent of post. Technology has jumped more in the last 50 years than in the previous 200. This trend will continue for the forseeable future. Once we hit the point where we can digitalize ourselves, move beyond our solar system, exist without the flesh etc there's no reason why we couldn't live for billions.

>>1153954

i find many things wrong with this post. and besides, who are you to govern rights to life based on intelligence/sentience? People can have fatal strokes which can render them brain dead, do they cease to be a person at that point? you seem to be using the logic "I think, therefore I am". Pro choice or not, women should not be able to have abortions if they DECIDE to have unprotected sex or forgo birth control. If decide to do something like that, it is your responsibility to own up to it, not kill for your own convenience. A mass of cells is alive, and has rights, for that mass of cells will soon be a human being.

>How can a sensible woman possibly support Ron Paul? He introduced the Sanctity of Life act in congress and tried to make United States law say that life begins at conception.

A sensible woman would only be pregnant if she wanted a baby.

He is pro-life. Meh. Considering he is right on the most important issues, you gotta compromise

>>1153192
>Sensible
>Woman

Subtle.