Nah, they'll find some way to pin the blame on someone else.

In during only 1 post because libertarians are afraid of reality.

Sounds good.

"DAMN GYBRMENT AIN PROVIDIN WAT WE NEED! RON PAUL RON PAUL!"

You fucktards will rue the day :)

Sounds good to me.

See you guys in Colorado Springs!

In the long run they will be better for it. Unfortunately, short term things will probably go badly for them, and it will be used as evidence that we need more government, completely ignoring that the people were made over-reliant on government services.

>>88211
You're right. They shouldn't be cutting government waste, they should be raising taxes on people already getting raped by the recession.
...oh wait.

>>Water cutbacks mean most parks will be dead, brown turf by July; the flower and fertilizer budget is zero.
Oops. Lost all credibility right there. Couldn't help but lol.

>>88277
>Streetlights
>Trashcans
>Government waste

They need to eliminate or contract their police and fire services out to someone who can do it cheaper or do away with them entirely.

A lot of enterprising individuals have an opportunity to make a lot of money providing services that the government used to provide.

I often wonder if there is current-flow between Boulder and Colorado Springs. We could light every filament in Denver for years!

You can't just cut off services like that

You have to ween off the unimportant aspects very slowly

This is going to end so terribly

>>88282

You're a genius.

so without big brother government, people are just going to spiral into hell? Are they capable of living without government, or was that part of the emo-isation of America?

You can't cut funding! You will regret this!

>>88286
>WE GOTTA HAVE A RON PAWL RELOVEUTION
>can't be too sudden guys!

in before form a private park business - who would pay for it?

The city should fill in the sewers and tear up the roads before leaving them to their ungrateful hell

Parks are wastes of space.

>>88293
too bad that a strong government is completely natural and is the most correct way to organize a country.

>>88299

Ungrateful? We pay for this shit. Since when do we need gratitude to a fucking government?

>>88299
LOL. imagine it

before:
I can't believe we have to pay the government to build our roads!

after:
I can't believe we have to pay companies to build our roads!

LOL at libertarians already claiming they are "doing it wrong" even though this is exactly what they want.

>>88282

Just an honest question

do you seriously think private militia vigilante group is better than a government organization that is required by law to be answerable to the public?

>>88309

Companies may as well be the government in a LOLbertarian hellhole.

>>88302
if this was true divine right of kings would still be the norm

>>88313

Yes.

>>88282
Inb4 massive amounts of illegal immigrant cops and firemen funded by Zionist. It will be incredibly lulzy if they go in untrained and do a better job for less pay, or just watch everything go to shit.

>>88312
Libertarians are like communists, if anything goes bad, it wasn't real libertarianism.

>>88316
that's what they don't grasp. take away central power, and you'll have some huge company monopoly that would be just like a government.

>>88313
People could refuse service from private sectors, not public. I don't know about you but I'm on the edge of my seat for this.

>>88299

>THE GOVERNMENT GIVES YOU SERVICES YOU NEITHER NEED NOR WANT YOU BEST BE GRATEFUL

>>88313
>implying government organizations are answerable to the public

>>88325
>>take away central power, and you'll have some huge company monopoly that would be just like a government.
You... really just don't understand what you're whining about do you?

>>88326
>dickheads refuse to pay for the building of a road
>companies forced to make some sort of authentication system to make sure people who use the road actually paid for it

>>88332
Yeah, I can't think of any reason for streetlights.

The sweat of my brow will not be given to the poor, if I want some green grass it will be in my yard and guess what, you cant have a picnic on it

>>88319

Nothing more needs to be said then, you cannot be convinced otherwise. Good day sir

>>88337

Good. I don't want nonpaying dickheads to use the roads my dollars go towards.

>>88336
>political view challenged
>YOU DONT UNDERSTAND

great rebuttal

>>88317
or maybe just strong governments would be the norm... which it is

>>88338
Yeah the 3 trillion dollar debt is for essentials only like street lights and cops....

what
the
fuck

>>88337
So your problem is that you feel sorry for the companies?

>>88337
What's the problem?

THIS IS WHAT LIBERTARIANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

>>88347
I lol'd.

>>88338
Black people will now be unseen?

>>88333

FUCK.YOU.

Yes they fucking are, you know where they aren't? China and Somalia and India.

In the free world, everything government is scruntinized and reexamined and subject to inquires and tribunals.

There would not be anything of that sort in a purely libertarian society.

>>88349
>>88348
enjoy going through 9001 checkpoints and tollbooths (can't be using the road for free now can you) on your way to work.

>>88353

So? I like unrestrained freedom and responsibility of the individual.

>>88332
>Baww my money goes to making my and my countrymen's lives a little better.

God, libertarians are the stupidest fucks there are.

Look I'll say this for like the 8th time today, we shouldn't eliminate taxes we should eliminate the income tax(there's no actual law requiring you to pay taxes by the way, but the IRS will go after you), the IRS the fed and 16th amendment. You see being FORCED to pay taxes sucks, but say there's a tax on tobacco, I can go but cigarettes and pay the taxes along with it or I have the choice to grow my own tobacco. Not to mention that the income taxes does not go to the people what so ever, it all go back to the fed anyway. So there's no reason why we should have an income tax and no reason anyone should support it.

>>88317
>implying modern politicians are different from kings

>>88358

Enjoy every square inch of a city being owned by Super MegaGovCorp and not being able to be there without paying 99cents a minute.

>Paradise
No. There never will be a paradise, there will always be problems. I merely think society would be better off without a large, intrusive government.

>>88357
>>enjoy going through 9001 checkpoints and tollbooths (can't be using the road for free now can you) on your way to work.
Which would be aggravating, so the roads with the fewest hassles would get the most business prompting the other roads to streamline it. Maybe they'd do a sort of ezpass. Maybe they'd only charge commercial vehicles. The fact that you can't figure out how it would word proves: nothing.

>>88365
So basically very little changes?

>>88358

You say that but you are still bound and tied and currently enjoying many things the government has provided for you (for taxes of course). Many things could not have been possible without the collective financial assistance of your neighbours and fellow countrymen such as infrastructure development, an educational system, military, a judicial system, law enforcement officers or food/drug regulations.

>>88365

Bullshit. You clearly don't understand libertarianism.

>>88366
>Never heard of Singapore.

>>88380

ALL of those could be better handled by private companies.

>>88380
Not a thing that you've listed couldn't be done better for cheaper by a private company.

>>88376

Or maybe every single business decides to do it

The cost of capital to start a new road to break the oligarchy turns away everyone else.

Now normally the government is at the very least "obligated" to either stop this nonsense or provide their own roads. But they cannot in this society.

Switch to libertarianism

*advicedog*

Bow to new Corporate Government

I love it when people list off supposedly horrible side effects that sound good to me.

>>88337
> doesn't know what toll boths are.
>>88356
who investigates accusations of police brutality?
the police.
SURE IS ANSWERABLE TO NORMAL PEOPLE

>>88376
lol. the point is you'll still be paying for roads. how retarded are you? Instead of distributing the cost and having everyone pay less, you'd rather have every service be expensive as fuck (lolo profit motive)?

check out somalia, it's a true non-governmental paradise.

>>88397
>>88357

too bad for you lol

>>88380
Only a few thing the government has provided that I use. Roads to get to work and school, farm subsidies so I get slightly cheaper nourishment, and a false sense of comfort that a nuclear bomb in a suitcase will never reach the city I live in.

>>88392
Riiight. A two dozen roads all beside each other, all heading to the same places. I can picture lots of businesses deciding that that would be a good investment.
Do you even hear yourself?

>>88398
Somalia improved under anarchy.

>>88388
>>88387

Big business in food/drug regulations and in judicial proceedings?

Don't you see the conflict of interest here?

>>88398
Yes because you have a 'choice' to not use the road in front of your house.

You could stop going to work or move to different one, because everyone has unlimited disposable income.

>>88398
>>you'd rather have every service be expensive as fuck
And you base this on...?

>>88405
Go ahead.
try and run a corrupt court without the government to protect you.
And no. Food and medicine will not have a conflict of interest- dead men are not returning customers.

>>88381

I would say that it is you, sir, do not understand libertarianism.

>>88358

Don't forget the cholera.

Let me see:
Streetlights: all motor vechiles have lamps and running lights; bicicles can be equipped with same, and bikers can get reflective clothes as well. Neighborhood can chip in to pay for lights.
Parks Dept.: If a certain neighborhood wants to keep their park, the several homeowners can get together and chip in to maintain it themselves.
Citizens mowing public green spaces: lots of opp for community activism there. The same with maintaining flower beds and/or groves of trees.
Water cutbacks for parks: Ummm...community-paid bills for specific parks, arrnaged with the water utility..?
Rec centers, indoor pools, museums opened by appointment or for promotions/arranged trips by paying clients.
No more street paving: Refusing to maintain an essential public infrastructure seems like overkill.

>>88405
Like?

>>88362
Consumption taxes are very regressive. While the poor spend almost all of their money on buying things, the rich spend very little as a percentage of overall income, and thus have lots of money to save and invest and get richer on.

>>88401

A different business, but how about you try to start a petrol company?

If a company decides to lower prices, everyone lowers prices so the companies lose. Consumers temporarily gain but companies all learn to raise back their prices and enjoy the extra money they're milking from consumers. Now the threat of everyone going MAD with prices keeps everyone at arms length in terms of pricing.

>>88412
Hahaha! Oh wow. Enjoy your rats in hotdogs and contaminated meds.

>>88421
No, actually.
a company lowers prices, gets more customers.
Short term loss, long term gain.
Others have to either drop their prices or make a better product to compete.

There was a time in America when local, state, and federal spending altogether was less than five percent of the GDP. And at the federal level, there was hardly any domestic taxation after Thomas Jefferson rescinded nearly all the federal excise taxes. That was when we were a much, much poorer country. If we had maintained such a low level of government, we would be able to support government with just donations alone, without any taxation.

Where did any of you fuckers get the idea you are entitled to keep your wealth? There is no universal constant that says you get to keep shit.

>>88409
i don't know, every other private enterprise?

>>88416

>"neighborhoods pitch in for streetlights"
>other dumb shit that sounds exactly like what communists would believe
>thinks people in the most selfish type of society would actually do that

Yes, I'm sure when the lights go out people are going to sit around and sulk and not try to find any alternatives.

>>88423
Up until someone finds out and no-one buys from that company.

>>88428
Haha yeah and then America decided it wanted to become an advanced first world economy and used government subsidies to create a vast system of canals for transporting goods and began protectionist policies to develop domestic industry.

Fuck yeah! Something close to anarcho-capitalism in action.

>>88433
up until there's no government regulations requiring inspection and no one finds out. LOL

ever wonder why there's lead paint in Chinese shit? because their economy is a lot more free than the US economy.

>>88433
Uh considering how often companies today get investigated and fined for violations of consumer protection laws yet still end up staying in business...

>>88397
>who investigates accusations of police brutality?
>the police.
>SURE IS ANSWERABLE TO NORMAL PEOPLE

And Internal affairs investigates allegations and brings any injustice to light. I dont know where you're from but the IA in my country are not corrupt.

>>88417

Business as a machine is more efficient than governments. But businesses are there only to benefit themselves, and if that means screwing some people over, well as long as there isnt bad press who the fuck cares?

>>88454
>Business as a machine is more efficient than governments. But businesses are there only to benefit themselves

disagree, government services are a lot more efficient than private ones

also disagree, a government is just a big business

>>88448
Because they have the police to keep the CEO from getting shot in the head for giving someone's kid autism.
Death is scarier than profits are attractive to most buisness men.

Seriously, it seems to me that Libertarianism would work as long as you had some way to ensure no one company was able to take control of several key sectors. Like, if you could prevent a single company from becoming the police/education/food/medicine supplier. This town could do well if they simply appointed an elected committee to oversee fair business practices and had some basic anti-monopoly laws.

If the towns people were truly dedicated to this concept, they could vote with their dollars when a business starts behaving in a destructive manner and go to the ballot when the town council misses a beat or unbalances the local economy.

I think this whole thing could work, but it's not going to be easy. I think they won't last too long unless there are some clear thinkers among them.

>>88431
Home owner associations pay for streetlights, parks, and paving all the time. I live in one. We have our own park, pave the street about once every ten years (the HOA own them, the city doesn't), and we pay for the streetlights through a private account.
The sodium bulb in the streetlight on my street went out a couple of weeks back. I and a neighbor called the HOA bigwigs, they called the electric company, who fixed the problem.
I manage an apartment complex. We have several lamp-post-mounted security lights. The apartment residents pay for those lights through their rent, as well as the landscaping and my salary. One of the bulbs in one security light went out. I called the EC, they came and fixed the problem. In contrast, a fried bulb on the street outside the complex has been dead for over a year. No calls have provoked servicing of that unit.

Libertarianism is like communism. It looks nice on paper, but doesn't really work in reality.

>>88466
so basically instead of being taxed by the government, you're taxed by your home owner's association.

such a radical change

>>88426

I know this won't convince you and I guess I wouldn't believe it either in your position.

I WORK for a major petrol company up in the offices.

They may be competitors together but they have an understanding. We're here to make profit, fighting against each other means we don't make any.

It was found out a while back that the additional customers brought on by cutting costs is easily offsetted by every other companies cutting costs. See no one really has a "favourite" gas company they just go to the nearest and cheapest station to fuel up.

In this way the companies don't make money so they all realized if they left their prices higher EVERYONE wins! Everyone needs gas and in this way everyone gets a decent size of a pie without unnecessary fighting.

Years of working for a corporate business has soured me on the idea of them running everything about a nation.

>>88416
>Neighborhood can chip in to pay for lights.
>the several homeowners can get together and chip in to maintain it themselves.
>community-paid bills for specific parks, arrnaged with the water utility..?

Congratulations, you just invented government.

>>88464

But then you don't have the REAL and TRUE libertarianism.

>>88446

Well someone might find out, hell maybe the press will actually do their job and make expose stories like they used to.

>>88477

Seems mighty voluntary to me. It's almost like I could say "no" if I wanted.

>>88489

Maybe he will get shut up. Or not give a shit like most everyone.

brb, going to colorado springs to make myself king

>>88497

Could you really say no? I mean, sure, the military wouldn't come to your home, but I'm sure some of your neighbors might. It ends in the same thing: You being forced to pay, or someone takes possessions from you until they deem you've given enough. Either way, you are going to pay.

you people are fucking retarded.

ok, lets say you want the government to provide you with services like streets, cops, firemen, etc. how about this.. instead of forcing OTHERS to live YOUR utopia, why dont you get people who are like you and form your own little liberal shithole.

im sure if liberals are all knowing as they claim to be, you will have a glorious city shining on a hill. libertarians can go about with their own society and you can laugh at them for wallowing in their filthy liberty.

or does watching someone do what they want make you butthurt? honestly.. why give a shit? just let people do what they want so long as they arent hurting you. u liberals act like a bunch of nosy children butting into other people's business. grow up and quit being faggots

A=A

>>88522
AMEN!

>>88286
At the very least I would find private companies willing to step up and provide theses services before I got rid of them.

>>88497
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_Commons

or more generally, the Collective Action Problem.

Why would any self interested individual voluntarily pay for any service apart from those he absolutely needs? When the people who DON'T use a park refuse to pay for it, the cost for the people who DO use it goes up, at which point even fewer people are willing to pay, and more and more people refuse, until no one is willing to pay.

>>88516

Not really, I'm sure if someone wanted the park mowed, they'd go mow the fucking park instead of intruding on the community. I'm sure if they wanted street lights, someone would take initiative to put some lights up themselves. They don't have to be good lights, hell they could be little lanterns or something.

>>88417

Providing for the rule of law is one of the primary reasons for a government. An impartial arbiter of justice is crucial for a society to function. The privatization of corrections facilities has already had a negative impact on the impartiality of the judicial process. There have been several judges, most notably Mark Ciavarella, who have received kick-backs in return for supplying private prisons with inmates. To dumb it down for you: they sent innocent people to prison for profit. What do you think would happen if the entire judicial system (law enforcement, the courts, corrections services) was controlled by private industry?

>>88537
oh boy look at the retarded liberal who doesnt understand the commons problem.

the tragedy of the commons is when a common resource which isn't exclusive, meaning anyone can use it, is over-used. since people care less about stuff that isnt there's, they wont have the incentive to properly maintain it.

for instance, if we had 100 acres of land that anyone could use for their sheep, it would be rational for one individual to graze it bare before anyone else can get to it first since they might do the same.

what you are talking about is more likely a positive externality. but even then, you still dont get it.

liberals are fucking stupid

>>88211
As a Colorado Springsfag I can say the reason for all that is the voters were sick and tired of tax increases along with the irresponsibility of our city counsel. They made dire prediction after dire prediction leading up to voting day and the voters called them out on it.
Now instead of spending money responsibly they're cutting shit like that left and right.
The city counsel better damn well lose their jobs come Nov...

libertarians just make fools out of themselves

I cant wait for colorado springs to have higher crimes and less quality of life.

I love seeing idiots suffer. Greatly.

>>88537
Then I guess you don't have a park. Boo-hoo.

Obvious troll is trollious

>>88567
I explicitly stated in my post that the tragedy of the commons is a subset of collective action problems - which is any situation where supposedly rational actors cannot work together because cost doesn't justify the result for some or all of those individuals. If a park costs 100 dollars a month to maintain in a town of 100 people, it doesn't make economic sense for those people who use less than 1% of the "park time" to pay for it if they don't have to(which is why we need government, to force us to pay for the services that we collectively utilize). Obviously this is a crude example. It IS the same logic as the tragedy of the commons: In both cases rational self interest, says we should do one thing, but that thing is actually silly to those people who want to maximize resources.

Wow /new/ is a socialist shithole. LOL

>>88635

Everywhere is a socialist shithole to a real libertarian.

>>88573
I just paroused ColoSprings on GoogleEarth because this thread intrigues me. I did several street views in different sections of town.
Every residential area is stuffed with trees, most-all seem on private property, so no loss for this thread. I also saw several parkways (to wit: divided avenues with trees and grass in a wide median), all rather luxuriant. Are those city-owned or neighborhood-owned?
And also, I thought Colorado Springs was supposed to be this big uber-conservative haven where republicans and chirstian-conservatives go to breed. So what's up with the city screaming tax-hike every cycle?

The more local the government the better it is spent. It's pretty retarded for a libertarian to work in city government and cut the only useful spending that exists.

I'd favor cutting most federal and state spending though.

>>88667
>Are those city-owned or neighborhood-owned?
As far as I know most of them are city owned. > So what's up with the city screaming tax-hike every cycle?
Because our city counsel are R.i.N.O.'s (in my opinion) and instead of spending money responsibly they try for tax hike after tax hike. Because the voters have to approve of tax hikes (thanks to our t.a.b.o.r.) we reject them (most of the time).

>>88690
The difference between "state" and "local" governments have nothing to do with their size, Compare the NYC government with the state government of Wyoming. The distinctions between different "levels" of government are arbitrary from a theoretical standpoint.

The Idea that a "local" government is inherently more responsive to it's citizens needs is also bullshit. NYC is much more diverse, economically, racially, politically then Wyoming, and therefore has much more complex needs(and is therefore less able to meet those needs).

>>88700
So then, this *is* going to be a big staring contest, yeah? Keep us aprised, and thanks for the inside info.
Real news in 'news/? it's more likely than you think.

>>88744
>NYC is much more diverse, economically, racially, politically

well yeah but it's the same with states and fed. It gets more complex and diverse the higher up you go. Giant cities are exceptions.

>>88860
>Giant cities are exceptions.

No Giant Cities are the rule, that's where most of the world population lives. Libertarian philosophy implicitly assumes that people live in homogeneous small towns when in fact they don't. It assumes that people will work together to provide needed services, without considering the possibility that people want/need different things.

they should rename it galt's gulch

>>88211
>while pension and health care costs for city employees continued to soar.

>>88211
>$212 million general fund budget. Fowler and many other residents say voters don't trust city government to wisely spend a general tax increase and don't believe the current cuts are the only way to balance a budget.

I could easily budget the city on 212 mil, the Polos are doing this to punish the people and try to force them to pay more taxes. Its so fucking obvious

>>89098
>>89088

nail on the head, the local gov is playing a game of chicken. They could easily afford these services on that budget.

>>89127
More like tyranny to force them to pay taxes.

>DONT PAY MORE TAXES WE WONT PAY FOR COPS TO PROTECT YOU.

Having Colorado Springs be my hometown, this interests me a lot. I can see both sides of it.

On one side, one might say the voters are too greedy to vote on a tax increase to keep vital city services functioning.

On another, one might say the city bureaucracy is too inefficient to be awarded more taxpayer money, and it's just a game of chicken between the bureaucrats and taxpayers.

I will watch safely from New Mexico to see how this goes down.

ITT Libertarian faggots get asspained

Colorado Springs is in the middle of a metroplex, with other towns seamlessly around it.
Exactly how big is ColoSprings, and how big is its population?

>>89174
I fucking cant stand the dishonest point that somehow not wanting to pay taxes makes you greedy. When its the other way around and the government is greedy in trying to take more from you.

>>89174
No its the governments obligation to operate under the funding it was given. If it cannot the government should be replaced.

>>89191
Taxes are immoal

Not wanting to pay them is moral

>>89191
you're quite stupid

>>89191
I stand by this statement when it comes to federal taxes, because we know it mostly goes towards imperalism and funding our MISrepresentatives.
But local taxes are cool with me, since they answer more to the people and actually help in the city you live in.

>I recently asked my friend's little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President some day. Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there, so I asked her, 'If you were President what would be the first thing you would do?' She replied, 'I'd give food and houses to all the homeless people.' Her parents beamed. 'Wow...what a worthy goal.' I told her, 'But you don't have to wait until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $50. Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house.' She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, 'Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?' I said, 'Welcome to the Republican Party.'

>>89254
>implying that you can buy a house if you are homeless.