Probably one of the few times some retard at BBC pissed on their good name of being generally unbiased.
That report, was retarded.

If people vote against their own interests, it is not because they do not understand what is in their interest or have not yet had it properly explained to them.

They do it because they resent having their interests decided for them by politicians who think they know best.

There is nothing voters hate more than having things explained to them as though they were idiots.

As the saying goes, in politics, when you are explaining, you are losing. And that makes anything as complex or as messy as healthcare reform a very hard sell.

Stories not facts

In his book The Political Brain, psychologist Drew Westen, an exasperated Democrat, tried to show why the Right often wins the argument even when the Left is confident that it has the facts on its side.

He uses the following exchange from the first presidential debate between Al Gore and George Bush in 2000 to illustrate the perils of trying to explain to voters what will make them better off:

Gore: "Under the governor's plan, if you kept the same fee for service that you have now under Medicare, your premiums would go up by between 18% and 47%, and that is the study of the Congressional plan that he's modelled his proposal on by the Medicare actuaries."

>Why do people vote against their own interests?

Because short term gain of a little "free" benefits isn't worth the long term pain of bankrupting the fucking nation

Bankrupting the nation = Not in the national interest

When you grow up, and can look past your own nose and your own selfishness, maybe you'll get that

But since you're a libtard, probably not

Enjoy yout 50,000 dollars in debt to the national debt before you've ever earned a pay check 15 year old retardlogicfag

>>79970
>>implying you know what their own interests are.
Freedom. Ain't it a bitch.

Bush: "Look, this is a man who has great numbers. He talks about numbers.

LISTEN TO THE PROGRAMME
Turkeys Voting for Christmas
BBC Radio 4, Wednesday 27 January at 2045 GMT
Or listen via the iPlayer

"I'm beginning to think not only did he invent the internet, but he invented the calculator. It's fuzzy math. It's trying to scare people in the voting booth."

Mr Gore was talking sense and Mr Bush nonsense - but Mr Bush won the debate. With statistics, the voters just hear a patronising policy wonk, and switch off.

For Mr Westen, stories always trump statistics, which means the politician with the best stories is going to win: "One of the fallacies that politicians often have on the Left is that things are obvious, when they are not obvious.

"Obama's administration made a tremendous mistake by not immediately branding the economic collapse that we had just had as the Republicans' Depression, caused by the Bush administration's ideology of unregulated greed. The result is that now people blame him."

Reverse revolution

Thomas Frank, the author of the best-selling book What's The Matter with Kansas, is an even more exasperated Democrat and he goes further than Mr Westen.

He believes that the voters' preference for emotional engagement over reasonable argument has allowed the Republican Party to blind them to their own real interests.

The Republicans have learnt how to stoke up resentment against the patronising liberal elite, all those do-gooders who assume they know what poor people ought to be thinking.

Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular anger against intellectual snobs. The result is that many of America's poorest citizens have a deep emotional attachment to a party that serves the interests of its richest.

But what about little Sally Nuckenfutch? Won't somebody think about the children?!

Thomas Frank says that whatever disadvantaged Americans think they are voting for, they get something quite different:

"You vote to strike a blow against elitism and you receive a social order in which wealth is more concentrated than ever before in our life times, workers have been stripped of power, and CEOs are rewarded in a manner that is beyond imagining.

"It's like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come pouring down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy."

As Mr Frank sees it, authenticity has replaced economics as the driving force of modern politics. The authentic politicians are the ones who sound like they are speaking from the gut, not the cerebral cortex. Of course, they might be faking it, but it is no joke to say that in contemporary politics, if you can fake sincerity, you have got it made.

And the ultimate sin in modern politics is appearing to take the voters for granted.

This is a culture war but it is not simply being driven by differences over abortion, or religion, or patriotism. And it is not simply Red states vs. Blue states any more. It is a war on the entire political culture, on the arrogance of politicians, on their slipperiness and lack of principle, on their endless deal making and compromises.

And when the politicians say to the people protesting: 'But we're doing this for you', that just makes it worse. In fact, that seems to be what makes them angriest of all.

>>79976
Really? That article is biased?
Oh, because they don't refer to Obama as a socialist...
Oh, the whole world is against you...

>>79992
Sally Nuckenfutch says Tommy Frank is full of shit.
Thank you.

>>79998
Careful about 'ass-umptions'...

Americans are not only ignorant, they have anti-knowledge.....which sounds stupid, but what is meant is that they 'know' things, they are certain about bits of 'knowledge' they have that are utterly utterly retarded, and wrong in multiple ways, based upon things which are wrong in multiple different ways, feeding back into each other into a mess of gibbering retardedness that can be hard to even understand. This is ESPECIALLY true with anything around politics.
while I try to generally avoid pointless american bashing, this is simply the answer to OPs wondering.

>>79998
No, you lightweight.
Because it massively implies that the healthcare reform ideas proposed in America are good, when they are fucking retarded to anybody with a functioning brain.

Before you start bawwwing your eyes out about Europe, which is where I am from mind you, the situation is completely different in the states.

>>79981
>"Obama's administration made a tremendous mistake by not immediately branding the economic collapse that we had just had as the Republicans' Depression, caused by the Bush administration's ideology of unregulated greed. The result is that now people blame him."

This is the biggest lie ever. Bush didn't cause the economic collapse. Risky trading on the part of Fannie and Freddie caused the collapse, because of the stupid liberal idea that "EVERYONE should own a house, no matter their income or their ability to pay for it. If you disagree then you're a racist."

Bush went before Congress SEVERAL TIMES pleading to set up regulatory agencies to watch over Fannie and Freddie. But Congress (Dems and Reps) didn't want to slow down the money train, so they ignored him.

And then when everything collapses, people just blame Bush because he was president at the time, and blaming Bush for everything including the weather has been in vogue since 2003.

Also, OP, these people voting "against their self-interests," are actually voting FOR their self-interests. They recognize that this silly class warfare "fuck the rich they have money, give me their money" bullshit will destroy this country, and they still believe in an America where you have the right to succeed and the right to fail, but whatever you earn should be yours.

>>80011
>Risky trading

Should say Risky loaning.

Scott Brown voted for mandatory insurance in his state

Lol!

>>80011
That's right. SHOULD Bush have pushed harder? Yes. But the same people now in charge of cleaning up the mess were telling him that there wasn't a problem. Nothing to see here. Move along.

>>80016
Then he'll fit right in with the 59 democrats who wrote the federal version.

>>80007
>when they are fucking retarded to anybody with a functioning brain.

Then why don't you explain what's so retarded about it to us uneducated peasants instead of just saying it's retarded and leaving it at that O wise one.

>>80030
Because no other country on the planet is like us. There are noninvasive, non-hand-the-industry-over-to-the-government reforms; but we won't try those, instead we'll get a shell of the former bill that serves as nothing but a handhold for more invasive and retarded legislation.

People are idiots. There, I said it.

Well, that and the fact that they've been programmed by the rich to believe the federal government is responsible for all their problems. And if you try to explain this to them, they don't trust you because they assume you have an agenda--this is not an entirely unjustified attitude too, because they've never had a reason to believe that anyone gave a shit about them.

Basically, they're a lost cause. Best to move on.

>>80033

And who's fault is that?

>>80036
Just about everyone in the federal government, but this leads to a rant that should really have it's own thread.

People with health insurance already don't feel like paying more in taxes to cover the uninsured. Nevermind that they already are paying for them anyway.

I'm a liberal, and this reform bill is a waste of everyone's time without the public option.

>>80011
>This is the biggest lie ever.

It doesn't really matter if it's a lie or not, just blaming the republicans would be enough.
Lots of people are borderline retarded, as long as something sounds true they won't question it.

>>80055

This. Americans hate socialism, because it carries the implication that the hard work they do to earn money is co-opted for the benefit of other people who don't work as hard. Nobody likes to be stolen from.

Everywhere else in the industrialised world, health is seen as a public service.

Only in America, with its twisted morals and profit whoring mentality, is it any different.

>>80055
>People with health insurance already don't feel like paying more in taxes

Their premiums will most likely heavily decrease and if it doesn't they can just leave their insurer.
Public health care is a win/win situation for the people.

>>80067
Honestly, as an American, I'd rather keep the current system because I am that spiteful.

>>80067

Please explain why no-cost health care is a human right and/or should be a public service. I simply see it like any other commodity, but it's ultimately a luxury you should have to pay for if you want it.

No one has mentioned so far how government policies since the 1930s have *helped* insurance companies and brought about a lot of this whole mess.

>>80071
I agree with you bro, I'm just trying to explain why there is such resistance to the health care reform bill. As shown in the article, facts aren't as important to these people as "feelings" are. Republicans play on "the gubernment is evul" and "dem democrats r elitests" to stir up support.

Gentlemen, the economy is in the tank deficit spending is out of control, what do we do?

Start another expensive entitlement program that will outgrow it's budget and bankrupt us even faster!

BRILLIANT!

>>80077

Ironically, Republicans are the biggest spenders and the most intrusive politicians.

>>80079
Reduce military spending and put it towards healthcare.
Ta da!

Because socialism doesn't work
I like cheap and plentiful medicine
It would cripple medical advancements.
We need to remove the regulations and let the free market lower prices.

/thread

>>80077
have any of the state wide programs been successful?

>>80064

The average American doesn't even know what the fuck "socialism" means. They know jack-shit about economics, and what little they do know is gleamed from Cold War mythology, Reagan speeches, and terrible novels.

As I said, people are idiots. they let their ideas control them, regardless of whether they're true or not. They can't face their cognitive dissonance so they try to drown out anything that contradicts them. And they're incapable of seeing beyond a simple, black/white world-view.

As I said, they're a lost cause. Time to move on.

>>80079
The american healthcare system is the most expensive in the world by a fair margin.
It would be quite difficult for any reform to do anything other than decrease costs.

>>80083

Another example of mythology over reality.

Pic related.

>>80085
Also, this.

I've broadly given up on america, so long as they don't start stopping people emmigrating, let them do what they like. They are just too dumb to bother trying to help.

LOOSE THE REGULATION
BRING BACK FREE MARKET CAPITALISM INTO MEDICINE
Lower prices
Increase medical advancements.

Fuck off with your socialized control.

People get RAPED against their own interest. Case in point -- the state

>>80074
People NEED health care, it is not an issue of choice. Their survival might depend completely on the health care.
Something that is required to stay alive can't be a luxury

>>80090
Looks like someone failed their economics class.
Everything I said is true. End the regulation and people will stop complaining about high prices and medical advancements would skyrocket again.

Like they used to before canada implemented socialized medicine.

Socialism doesn't work.

>>80107
Then lets socialize food and water first. You know how that turned out.

>>80084
In my home state we have government-paid health care for children of uninsured parents. We haven't seen a huge increase in new births, and the department is doing quite well to make sure the less fortunate kids have a shot at a normal childhood.

Now if you judge the program on weather or not it is "profitable" you could only conclude it isn't successful. However if you look at a lot of the HMO's out there, you find that they aren't profitable either. In fact the government hands a shit load of your tax dollars to HMO's every year.

>>80112
Health care can still be a commodity, but by no means a luxury
Nobody should not be denied of their chance to live

>>80090
People don't understand how much bringing back capitalism would save medicine and this country.

>>80107

You're automatically assuming that a longer life is a better life, or that humans are "meant" to live for as long as they possibly can. I could argue at the same time that the human body, like any other machine, eventually wears out or gets damaged. It can be fixed, of course, but being fixed isn't a fundamental function of human life, it's something that we invented.

It's certainly nice to provide for people to live longer and more comfortable lives, but it will never be more than a luxury.

When you try to guarantee a service to people by bypassing the market, it bites you back with all its teeth. It didn't help that Communist Poland was forced to give up a lot of its industrial production to the Soviet Union, but when it artificially lowered food prices, there were massive shortages and *no one* was getting properly fed.

>>80116
Okay then, get rid of all this bullshit that was put in because of the new deal so prices will go down and medical research will go up.
Get rid of corporate medicine and allow trading across state lines get rid of the regulation

>>80118
yes, lets return to the 1920's mindset that the free-market is infailable, there is absolutely no way that could bite us in the ass like it did for the great depression or the more recent recession which could have been avoided with a little oversight.

In most countries with public health care, if you like paying through the nose for medical care there's private insurers you can use.

Also, you now realise that you have to pay for the uninsured people's care anyway when they can't afford to pay the costs the incurred when they went for emergency care.

Enjoy your massively inefficient universal health care.

The person who wrote that article, like the U.S. government, assumes they know what's best for people they don't even know.

Also,

>barely suppressed violence

most retarded line ever

>>80113
What state, what was the programs starting budget, when? What is it now? What were the projections?

>>80116

>Nobody should be denied their chance to live

Nobody's denying anybody anything, we say they should just have to pay for it like any other good or service. Let them pay for it on credit, or take out a loan from the bank if they can't afford it, like if they wanted to buy a house, a new car, a big screen tv, etc.

Of course, I would really like to see health care become less expensive, too, and there are several ways that could be done (including the removal of government social services like Medicare, ironically).

>>80127

Da fuck? The Great Depression was caused by the Fed's incompetent policy of cutting the money supply dramatically over a short period of time. It was a failure of government. Keynes' theory that it was caused by lack of investment has long since been discredited, even by the Fed's current leadership.

>>80127

Government oversight is what caused this recession, too. Starting with Carter, the credo of "everybody should have access to housing" put government pressure on lenders to give mortgages to people who couldn't really afford them. It wasn't lenders being greedy that caused the housing bubble, it was the government telling them that they had to lend to people who were likely to default.

>>80127
So incredibly ignorant.
The federal reserve caused the great depression and the extreme regulation prolonged it. Learn2history. This is what happened.
You retards think austrian economists are conspiracy theorists but we're right. It's the kenysianism and regulation that is destroying everything.

The free market works.

>Why do people vote against their own interests?
Because they have principles.

>>80147

Well said, Mr. Paul.

>>80143
News has made 4chan so much greater. Lov U.

>>80142
Also over-speculation which also contributed to the great depression and was the foundation of the dot com bubble.

I had a professor tell me about her neighbors who would buy homes under construction "The value will increase while they're being built!" because the real estate market was moving so fast.

>>80133
>pay for it like any other good or service
>pay to live

>>80161
>I had a professor tell me

Wow! I totally didn't expect that.

>>80163

It's impossible not to pay to live. A public health system still relies on your tax money.

Oh shit, now the Paultards are here.

Brace for intense faggotry.

>>80169
But it's run for your benefit, not profit.

>>80175
He thinks that bureaucrats and doctors don't work for profit.

>>80175

Intentions of government programs =/= results of government programs.

By running something on profit, you're instantly forced to cater to the customer.

>>80163
Then socialize food first.I mean are you fucking kidding me. How hard is it to get a fucking job, just a small thing 3 days a week and you can live in a 200 dollar room.

Maybe we should pay for all homeless and crackheads to have a place to live, food and medical care when they can easily do it themselves.

>>80189
Soup kitchens bro

>>80170
>Herp derp
Spoken like a true assburgers.

Brace for intense economic logic by dr paul.

lol liberals
idiots as usual

>>80188
theyre forced to cater to the customer if there is actual competition, if theyre all working together or the only company in the business they can do wtf they like.

>>80198
And you think we can't provide shitty but decent health care to them through charitably means.

You socialists are unbelievable i swear.

>>80200

Oh dear lord, he called him "Dr. Paul." That's almost as bad as the Randians calling their whore messiah "Miss Rand."

Honestly, Propertarian crypto-collectivism is as scary as Scientology or Creationism. It's the same exaltation of the idea over the individual and reality.

>Implying the private sector doesn't cut corners in an attempt to be the 'lowest bidder'

>>80212
:/ i don't understand. sounds like sophism to me.

>>80210

Right-wing definition of socialism: Everything I don't like.

It's always some boogeyman, isn't it? It's either the Jewish bankers, or the liberals, the communists, the blacks, the SOCIALISTS~!

The great theory of history: If only THOSE people were gone we'd all be happy.

>>80222
forgets the huge veil of competition and specialisation maybe?

>work like a dog for years to feed your family
>suddenly get very sick/have an accident
>your premiums skyrocket
>you can't afford them anymore
>enjoy suffering/dying like a pig

>>80212
Bullshit.
Marxism in all its forms is a religion and has killed more people than any religion on earth.
Freedom over all.

>>80212
Isn't he a doctor? Miss Rand should be Mrs. Rand to reflect that she was married.

>>80228
gook
nice divisions

true, doctors become doctors because they want to be rich. documentaries I was watching about socialized healthcare in europe and asian countries the funniest thing I remember was they universally complained they were underappreciated, money-wise.

of course eurofags don't send you into shittons of debt from all those years of getting educated, right? ungrateful fucks, aren't they.

>>80232
Exactly, this is because of corporate medicine and regulation. Don't you idiots DARE call socialism capitalism.
If we had capitalism in medicine any retard working at mcdonalds could pay for healthcare.
It's not that difficult to comprehend you morons.
Ron paul is correct.

>>80228
So what you're saying is that giving the banks money and using that money to manipulate them, then actually buying one of the big three, and then establishing a state run healthcare problem wouldn't be very obviously socialized?

State ownership of a means of production? Kinda fits the bill, imho.

>>80250
If you think Ron Paul is correct then you are completely blind to reality; period.

>>80212
If you think freedom is scary you'd do quite well in the borg hivemind.
Enjoy your marxism and socialism, which is ten times as scary.

>>80264
*facepalm*
Got any evidence to support your wild claims kenysian?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SdtoKeFTi0&feature=popt1dus01

>>80264
hurrrr he's a creationist hurrrr therefore everything else he says is wrong hurrrrrr

>>80250
Ron Paul believes the CIA control america

0/10

>>80264
What do you define as reality. You have no idea what ron paul stands for.
If you think regulation, corporate medicine, bailouts, kenysianism, socialism and high taxes are a good thing and don't dramatically raise prices and destroy the economy that just shows your perception of reality is false.
What the fuck is wrong with you people?

>>80189
read
>>80071
Public health care isn't just for a few crack-heads or lazy hobos, it helps everyone.
- Insurance have to offer a superb-service for a moderate price or they go bankrupt
- People who couldn't afford health care due to pre-existent conditions or low income can now enjoy proper treatment

>>80287
I hear he clarifys that statement in an interview on Glenn Beck's radio show.

>>80293
>implying that the government "competes"

>>80272
Kenysian economic policies made the United States of America *the* economic superpower of the 21st century. The results speak for themselves. Why do you want to go back to the lissez-faire policies which led us to economic ruin? Are you blind to history, or just being arrogant?

>>80287
This poster doesn't believe the cia controls a big chunk of america and our foreign affairs.

Here's two reasons to believe this off the top of my head:
Pay of pigs invasion
gulf of tonkin incident

>>80305
lassiez-faire, sorry.

>>80305
moar like ruined the economy.

>>80293
Enjoy your health insurance for fucking everything instead of just paying for services you need dramatically lowering costs which ron paul would do. You fucks.
I would rather save and invest my money in the bank than pay into health insurance each month when I rarely get sick.
When I do, I have fuckloads of cash to spend it on.

>>80312
Yes, being the #1 economy in the world sure means it "ruined our economy". Get the fuck out, moron.

>>80326
Keynesian policies didn't get us out of the depression, they certainly didn't contribute to the postwar boom. This leads me to believe that you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

>>80318
now read
>>80232
If you have some bad luck you lose everything you saved, also
>when I rarely get sick
>implying you won't get old
You have to be 12 years old or something

>>80305
*monstrously epic facepalm*
You MUST be trolling. I mean no human being can be that stupid.
Kenysian economics is what got us into the great depression. That and the new deal prolonged it. Kenysian economics is what caused almost every single bubble since it was implemented. It's also what cause the recent economic collapse.

Austrian economics is what america was built on. What the industrial revolution was built on.
Stop reading your propaganda in time magazine.

Also if you believe you need mommy and daddy there to control interest rates and inflate the money supply when they feel like it then you're a slave.
You anti-paultards are contributing to your own demise.

Typical left slanted BBC report, ignore it.

>>80305
>laissez-faire policies which led us to economic ruin
Has to be a troll.
No person can be that stupid.

>>80305
>laissez-faire policies which led us to economic ruin
Also the sky isn't blue and grass isn't green.

>>80342
You're 12 years old you fuck.
When I do get sick I would have loads of cash to spend it on. My god shut up.

Well if anyone was doubting my earlier comment that america(ns) were too stupid to be worth the bother of trying to help, they aren't now.

>>80354
>>80357
He's objectively correct.

>>80305
Because destroying their spending power and creating financial bubbles got us where we are today.
This will shut you up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3z_8upDBnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnekzRuu8wo

>>80371
>implying that facts will get in the way of a "true believer"

>Kenysian economics is what got us into the great depression

Stock market crash known as 'Black Tuesday' October 29th 1929

Keynes' General Theory wasn't published until 1936.

If anyone else has ever been taught or considered the notion that Keynesian economics caused the great depression rather than alleviated it (not to assume its theory still holds completely true today), then they may want to seek a refund on any Economics education they have received

>>80379
Shhhhhh don't confuse us with the facts.

>>80379
Federal reserve created in 1913. Kenysian economics even before kenyes.
Kill youself. Enjoy your lack of purchasing power and economic collaspe. Enjoy having faith in kenyesianism like any other religion.
It's just a shame we won't have a powerful economic boom that brings us into the future.

>>80343

MSc. in Economics here. You're an idiot.

>>80361
>You get into a horrible accident and need treatments for years
>your wife gets into a horrible accident and needs treatment for years
>one of your kids gets into a horrible accident and needs treatment for years
>you get a stroke/heart attack/some other common but horrible illness and you need treatment for years
>your wife gets a stroke/heart attack/some other common but horrible illness and she needs treatment for years
>on of your kids gets (born with) some illness and needs treatment for the rest of his life

There is no way you could pay the bills with an average income but OH GEE I GUESS YOU'LL BE WORKING AS SUPERSTAR OR MILLIONAIRE

Federal Reserve caused economic recession. And great Depression. Along with GP Morgan.

Then the same crooks a generation later did it again.

Fuck you. The Public Health insurance is a scam to rile people up. America is trillions in debt, how is it going to afford a transition into a new medical system that has sky high costs to create?

War has to end first. War Economy has to shift to civilian. Will never happen. It was a false start to begin with, a dream that they will yoink out from under you.

Besides Americans are way too fucking greedy and short-sighted to actually build something like a functioning society & economy. Not that it's their fault they've been raised like cattle.

>>80189
Food in America is already heavily socialised.
You should learn basic things about your core industries.

>>80424
Nice appeal to fear there broski. I'm happy with my coverage, take your bs peddling somewhere else.

>>80404
Watching Paulbots decry the 'worship' of kenyesian economics as some kind of religion is deliciously ironic.

>>80406
PhD in Economics here. You're an idiot.

>>80404
That's the thing, the religion (as has been proven over the last thirty years of deregulation - the dismantling of Keynesianism) is clearly the neo-liberal dogma surrounding the innate power of markets to efficiently distribute services and resources. Keynes devised a theory so brilliant it is literally unmatched in economic history. He was an academic who managed to influence every government in the world, creating massive growth not only in economy but in the welfare of the average citizen. The only people who don't get this are people without any understanding of history, or people who have been literally indoctrinated by the right.

>>80434
Watching Kenysians and socialists decry the 'worship' of austrian economics as some kind of religion is deliciously ironic.

fix'd

>Kill youself

It's Economics, none of which can ever be proved 100% due to the issues with social data and the complexities of Econometrics. Even if what I had posted was incorrect, which it isn't, and even if I did treat Keynesian Economics as a religion, which I don't (read the parenthesis), I would never have to resort to asking someone to end their own life.

And just because I'm feeling nice, when you argue the supposedly inherent flaws in Keynes work after the Great Depression at least spell his name correctly.

>>80438
>>80438
Bubbles are prosperity!

Devaluing the dollar creates a golden age!

Ignorance is bliss!

Kenysian economists simply ignore this is happening and continue to print monopoly money.

Kenysian economics did not cause prosperity.

>>80450
Hey, this is 4chan we're supposed to be assholes. There is no other way to communicate on this website other than hatred.

Also, end the fed.

>>80371
Man Ron Paul is really fucking retarded