OMG.... PEOPLE DIE IN WARS??????????s

>you do realize that it comments nothing on whether or not the war itself was justified?

>>545555
OP here again. Also, this also brings up another hole in the popular mindset of the world at large.

I find it strange how less and less, cultures of the world see uniformed soldiers as non-people.

>>545570
I'm actually a Democratic Socialist. I'll throw a trip up.

>>545555
>You do realize there are worse videos than this available, correct?

link please

>>545587
YOU MEAN SOLDIERS AREN'T CONSIDERED CIVILIANS?

COOL OBSERVATION BRO

I agree, but they should hire some gunners that have better than 20/50 vision.

>>545587
So, re-instate the draft. So long as we have a professional military caste and for profit war fighters like PSC's...

Thanks for reminding me how much I hate America OP. Is that what your plan for this thread was? I'm not one of you, and I think you ALL stink because of your SUPPORT of this type of actions!

Fuck this shit. Get higher quality cameras for our army. Is this the best they can do with billions of dollars?

The video confirms what anyone who wasn't a complete idiot knew already.

We never had the moral high ground.

All people are potential terrorist's therefore everyone must die to protect everyone from terrorism

>>545606
Oh, I totally agree. I think if mandatory conscription was a reality then we would perhaps no longer be fighting, or the public would not be willing to waste lives so liberally on lost causes.

What kind of a cheap excuse is that??
"PEOPLE DIE IN WARS. SO DON'T CARE WHEN CIVILIANS ARE PURPOSELY WIPED OFF THE MAP"

>>545617
>We never had the moral high ground.

This is just semantics on whether the war was justified. This video just doesn't comment on it.

>>545555

Genre: Formal
Female = 281
Male = 285
Difference = 4; 50.35%
Verdict: Weak MALE

Weak emphasis could indicate European.

http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php#Analyze

>>545608

You are the problem. Because the OP questions one thing you automatically assume that he supports a certain other. The world is not black and white. Grow the fuck up.

I'm really disappointed by some of the reactions here that don't seem to think this is such a big deal:

Argument 1: They were carrying weapons. (90% didn't have weapons)

Argument 2: They potentially could have fired said weapons. (they didn't, and the chopper wasn't even in range)

Argument 3: The people in the van might have wanted to pick up weapons (they didn't)

http://collateralmurder.org/en/resources.html

The "RPG" was a camera. The guy crawling away was a reporter. The guy driving the van was a father taking his children to school that stopped to help the critically wounded man trying to crawl away. His two children were in the van.

Edit 2: Holy shit, no one that the apache identified in the initial group had gunsat all... all of the "strapped weapons" were cameras. The two that the apache idenified has having guns were indeed the cameraman and his assistant. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540#36182090

The problem here is that NO ONE in the video was an immediate threat to anyone, regardless of the intentions of the US Soldiers. Absolutely no consideration was taken into account. No second thoughts. No questions as to why so many unarmed people were surrounding the armed ones. No time taken to see what the true intentions of the van driver / routers employees were. Shoot first, ask questions later.

The big deal here is that this is what happens when we put good people (our soldiers) in situations where they are scared for their lives and the lives of their friends, driven paranoid, and then given big fucking weapons and tanks that fly. The iraqi people have a right to defend themselves; just as our soldiers do; just as we would in a similar circumstance. The only option we have as humans inhabiting the same world is peace. The only option we have as a country is to leave.

>>545634
>>545634

Are you trolling or just fucking retarded?

>>545634

>>"PEOPLE DIE IN WARS. SO DON'T CARE WHEN CIVILIANS ARE PURPOSELY WIPED OFF THE MAP"

Do you not mean ACCIDENTLY WIPED OFF THE MAP?

if "innocent people are being killed for no reason" is not a legitimate argument against this war, I'd like to see what is considered a legitimate argument.

>>545660
from reddit

>>545634
But there's no evidence that the pilot was in fact targeting civilians to target civilians. The video is so hazy there's argument over whether it was actually the reporters in question, whether or not the men they were with were armed, or whether the people coming in to carry the bodies away was an ambulance or insurgents coming to take away evidence and weapons, as has been a repeated tactic employed by insurgents in this very conflict.

I'm actually of the opinion that the war was not sufficiently justified, just to clear things up. I'm just having trouble understanding why anyone isn't able to think clearly.

>>545660
Point 2 is shit, cause there was ongoing action in the area. Those humvees might have been the target. So the threat was taken out by a chopper from safety. Also the chopper was in range if they could shoot their maching gun at them.

>>545555
>war cannot be carried out with a perfect 0% Civilian Deaths and 100% Killing of an armed opponent
This is true. I agree with you on this part. It's understandable when soldiers can't safely tell soldiers from civilians and have to make a horrible choice.

The collateral murder video is en exceptional case though. The gunner had ample time to properly identify his targets. But you can tell that the gunner and pilot are eager to start shooting and didn't properly take the time to identify the individuals they were looking at. At 2:01 on the full vidio, they say some guys with straps on their shoulders and immediately said they were carrying AKs, even though one of them is clearly holding a camera pouch. At 2:05 there's 2 people can are possibly holding AKs, but they're in a non-threatening posture, and the AKs (if that's what they were) appear to have no magazines. The eagerness of the gunner to start killing people is easily recognisble in his voice. That eagerness likely caused him to improperly identify his targets.

ITT OP is an "EDGY" contrarian for the sake of being contrarian

>herp derp, innocent people die every day hurr

ANSWER ME THIS. How do we know the people the journalists were with were 'just innocent Iraqi civilians'? Show me the proof of this. Why were the Apache's watching a group of men as they normally do with identified (not always accurately) players?

I take it the guys at Wikileaks were sitting in the ops room while this was going on and knew the entire intelligence picture.

The one major problem I have with this is the mentality of the people performing the action. In no way is it questioned that they are legitimate insurgents with weapons, assumptions are made.

What is even worse, is how they claim the gunners were acting like it was a video game, and were trying to get a high score.

I tell you this, this will be used in some sort of action against video games. A lot of other issues have been apparent that people could have raised an outrage on before, this won't be the one that tops it. But it might in a different manner.

>>545716
wrong approach, fucko, don't shoot unless you know they are an enemy, and threatening

>>545660
>The only option we have as humans inhabiting the same world is peace. The only option we have as a country is to leave.

This is the reaction that is just unreasonable to believe that it would ever happen. Warfare and violence are inherent to human nature. There are people that believe this war to be justified. The intentions of these servicemen were to kill the enemy, and not civilians. It's clear that it's the policy of the military to try to the best of its ability to discriminate between civilian and enemy, because it is within their best interest to do so, ie you must get the people to align with you or at least with your goals or you cannot succeed, and indiscriminately killing civilians will thwart this.

As far as leaving is concerned, American forces are leaving. Whether or not they are leaving fast enough, or whether or not this affects whether or not the Iraqi government has a smooth enough transition to wean itself off the security of American forces to fill the vacuum that they leave behind is an argument I am not qualified to comment on. I would leave it up to the Iraqi government, what type of timetable they desire. I'm unaware of whether or not the current timetable was a bilateral decision made by Iraqis and Americans, or was unilateral.

>>545716
Gimme a screencap with identifiable weapons. You have the video.

yes. as long as people live, there will always be war. so i guess that means it's perfectly understandable for me to kill all of you. i'm only human.

>>545725

>>The one major problem I have with this is the mentality of the people performing the action. In no way is it questioned that they are legitimate insurgents with weapons, assumptions are made.

As said above we don't know the intelligence picture or why this group were being watched. For all we know they were listed players and the permission the pilots were given was confirmation it was their targets so they were free to engage. We just don't have the information to make assumptions on if they were innocent or insurgents.

>>What is even worse, is how they claim the gunners were acting like it was a video game, and were trying to get a high score.

I agree that it sounds bad and it is HUGELY difficult for most people to understand. But try living in the pilots environment. They are working under extreme pressure every single day, not enough sleep, living in less that comfortable surroundings, possibly seen really good friends die, are working around the clock. It doesn't sound like much to read but when you do that shit for months it changes the way anyone operates. No matter how professional you are.

>>545737
>>545756

Why would identified players need to be carrying weapons?

>>545737
Actually, this approach is dangerous for your forces.

This is why force continuum is often implemented.

Let me give you an example.

There are many signs that read in indigenous languages and English that you are not to travel down this road or approach a certain area, with explicit warnings of violence or arrest.

At 500 Yards, the servicemen are instructed to watch.
At 400 Yards, the servicemen are instructed to verbally deter, by playing a tape or shouting.
At 300 Yards, the servicemen are instructed to fire warning shots.
At 150 Yards, the service men are instructed to disable the vehicle.
Closer than 100, lethal force is authorized.

It sounds perfectly reasonable way to tell the difference between civilian and foe, until the car filled with a family is discovered inside.

My question is

>Does the genuine attempt to discriminate between foe and civilian give you a moral high ground over an enemy that explicitly targets civilians in some cases?

Or does it not matter at all, because people die all the same?

>>545780
they ARE in a fucking war zone

>A war cannot be carried out with a perfect 0% civilian deaths
Holy shit you are dumb.

Now, I can understand collateral deaths from, perhaps, deflected bullets, accidental missing and hitting civilians, grenading rooms with hostages, etc.

There are cases where it happens and it is an honest accident.
In this case, a fucking helicopter flies overhead for 10 minutes, looking straight at people who are NOT dressed in any militia gear or typical afghan clothing at all, talking on cellphones next to little kids. A trained shooter actually identifies a CAMERA as an RPG-7.

Feels so good to be an ex-Canadian soldier.

Amerifag status
[ ] untold
[ ] told
[x] Fucking told

>>545756

The gunners weren't looking through that low-res camera. Just because you don't see guns in the video doesn't mean they didn't. UN report found guns and grenades on the bodies (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/middleeast/06baghdad.html?hp). The only reason people care is because reporters were among the civvies killed with the insurgents. Ie, the media goes apeshit whenever a couple of their own are killed.

>>545797

Are you aware that "players" means identified terrorists who are wanted for previous crimes or intent to commit a terrorist crime?

>>545802

>>typical afghan clothing at all

All that Afghan clothing in Iraq.

>>545802
Until you find out that they had grenades in their pockets.

>>A war cannot be carried out with 0% civilian deaths.


Try the napoleonic wars. At least when they killed civilians they MEANT to kill civilians.

>>545802
>in any militia gear or typical afghan clothing at all

This video was from Iraq. There is no such thing as militia gear. Mistaking a tripod for an RPG sounds plausible at the distances this pilot was at. There was other equipment being carried by this sizable group of men that looked like firearms.

For an ex-Canadian soldier, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Former MP here.

>>545840
herp derp....hundreds of thousands of dead Russians starving after they burned down Moscow? yeah, that's definitely preferable to what we have today...

so I guess no one should be punished or held responsible. If I killed someone at my job i'd be put in a fucking prison for a long time.

According to the transcript a black vehicle was spotter much earlier, before they actual video starts
http://www.collateralmurder.com/file/transcript-en.txt
I haven't downloaded the torrent only seen the "Full video" on youtube

Give me the worse videos then, or you're a faggot, OP

>>545845
>Video was taken in Iraq
Who the fuck gives a shit, how am I supposed to identify where it was taken by a few images?
>There is no such thing as militia gear
http://www.indianamilitia.org/militiagear.html
Herp derp, militia gear is anything that a militia can use to bolster it's effectiveness, IE, tactical vests, optics, any piece of clothing/gear that can aid in combat.
>Mistaking a tripod for an RPG
Except for the fact that there are almost no RPG-7s available with tripods, and that it looked nothing like a fucking RPG-7 in the video.
>Looked like firearms
Herrp, I'm pretty sure the judgement has to be based on a little bit more than some fuzzy fucking silhouettes

Battle of gettsyburgh motherfucker.


1 civilian casualty.

46000 military deaths.

.0000216048049% civilian deaths looks pretty DAMN close to zero to me.

Faggot.

Of course no war is perfect. People die while innocent. The problem here is that we have two cases coming to light of America covering up incidents.

At some point, there will be so many events coming to light, videos and stories of "collateral damage", that the war will rightly be seen as untenable and unsustainable. But this cannot happen as long as the military and government delays evidence by years OR tries to cover up culpability by removing bullets from the bodies of dead pregnant women.

This is why it's a big deal. It was covered up. We are at a time when the public finally has access to two huge, disgusting war crimes.

We're just now becoming aware of the fact there are probably hundreds of events like this that have happened and will continue to happen. People are becoming acquainted with the fact that we are not educating people, we are not liberating anyone, we are not killing the right people. We are murdering innocents with zeal.

People dont die in wars

[spoiler]they respawn[/spoiler]

For fucks sake. WE KNOW NOTHING OF THE PEOPLE THEY WERE TRACKING!

It's not like "oh lets fly around Baghdad and find people with guns!"

Touts, SIGINT, HUMINT and loads of other assets may have found out this particular group of people to be an insurgent group up to any manner of activities. Hitting them before they dialled up on a known phone-activated IED that they found out was about to go off perhaps. Even dicking US vehicles for others to hit further down the road. They could be wanted terrorists in that area. In any of these cases it doesn't matter if they had weapons or not. No-one in that video said they were firing in self-defense.

Just because a US helicopter shot at them why do you assume they were just innocent guys hanging around in the street?

>>545864
That's because it's probably not a government job where you're given a weapon and expected to use the legitimate use of violence against an enemy that doesn't wear a uniform and frequently pretends to be a non-combatant.

>.0000216048049% civilian deaths looks pretty DAMN close to zero to me.

Because you're fucking stupid.

>>545879
For this to be a cover up it would have to have been covered up, not admitted to two years ago

Cant the military install some godamn HD cameras with their BILLION TRILLION KAJILIAN budget Jesus Christ

>>545888
Because they were confirmed to be from Reuters

>>545888
You clearly spend too much time on your PC. People, you know, GO OUTSIDE

What the fuck man?

>>545910

They would if the budget was being eaten up investigating bullshit cases of bad things that never happened

>>545876
Sigh. Gettysburg was a specific battle between two uniformed forces in a Civil War in which civilian causalities were massive.

Sherman.

>>545912

What the hel ldoes that even mean?

>>545910
Not needed in actual combat, which it was designed for. Identifying faces is not required.

In any case, applying military hardware to police duty never goes well.

Bush & Cheney.

>>545912

Is that your way of saying you can't refure what he's saying?

>>545911
And according to Reuters those journalist should never have been there in the first place. They were supposed to be doing a report on weightlifting and heard that shit was going down so they scampered to where the action was and payed the price

>>545907

They didn't admit the truth, though. They reported false details while the video clearly shows otherwise.

False reporting = covering up details.

>>545941
>shouldn't have been there
Yep, totally reason enough to shoot someone for being in the wrong place. Your morals are about as thick as air.

NEXT

>>545941

As a journalist, it is your duty to report what matters as it happens. You cannot ignore real events happening around you to do a fluff piece on weightlifting.

>>545946

Yeah because the Apache's knew that two guys in the crowd were journalists.

Again, as said above, how do WE know who that crowd were?

Ultimately it looks like the journalists were tragically killed by accident.

>>545946
Are you fucking retarded? There were nine militia and 2 journalists who shouldn't have even been there. The journalists weren't targeted you fucking moron they were with the targets
NEXT

>>545875
>Who the fuck gives a shit, how am I supposed to identify where it was taken by a few images?
You're trying to justify your point by making false statements and then trying to back those up?
>http://www.indianamilitia.org/militiagear.html
Insurgents in real life don't dress like terrorists in Counter-Strike, buddy.

The anti-war crowd will forget about this within a week, just like how the American "anti-war" crowd virtually disappeared after Obama's inauguration

>>545953

>>As a journalist, it is your duty to report what matters as it happens

Haha more like report what you readerbase would want to think is happening at any given event.

>>545953
Yes but they were obviously aware of the gamble

>>545771
>They are working under extreme pressure every single day, not enough sleep, living in less that comfortable surroundings, possibly seen really good friends die, are working around the clock. It doesn't sound like much to read but when you do that shit for months it changes the way anyone operates. No matter how professional you are.
good thing they're the ones who decide if people live or die, then

>>545978

You do realise that your comfortable little life isn't the entire real world?

Someone in the military made a mistake, whoop de fucking do. It's regrettable but unavoidable.

This kind of situation happens all the time, if you are in a combat situation you will never act with 100% certainty but you have to act regardless.

If you were the gunner and decided that you couldn't tell if they were carrying weapons or not and held back. Let's say they really were armed and ended up blowing up a humvee or two of US soldiers because you decided to be an indecisive fuck.

You can never win in these situations but you have to make a decision based on whatever little intel you have.

>>545978
The whole deciding if people live or die is a large part of the stress

remember when those marines were called murderers for killing civilians in haditha. A liberal senator even outright called them murderers without knowing all the facts, then after there was an investigation, the charges were dropped

this thread is full if liberal faggots doing the same thing. making assumptions without knowing all the facts.

>>545961
>You're trying to justify your point by making false statements and then trying to back those up?
How the hell is that a false statement? If I showed you a random ass video of some third world country, in blurry black and white no less, would you be able to identify where it was?
The answer is no.
>Insurgents in real life don't dress like terrorists in Counter-Strike, buddy.
See picture.
Actual mujahideen video.
See face covering and black tactical gear.

Also,
>behind wall, looking like he has an RPG
So he has a blurry little dongle in his hands, and that's suddenly an RPG?
God, I wonder if US troops shoot people for carrying PVC pipes.

>>545999
>Let's say they really were armed and ended up blowing up a humvee or two

The gunner did not properly confirm if they actually were armed, and none of the group were adopting any kind of hostile posture. There was plenty of time to reassess the targets and confirm whether they actually had weapons or not.

>>546012

So we should do the exact opposite and applaud these guys for laughing at the dead and running over corpses like it's Halo.

Yeah, no.

>>545999

Absolutely. This is what can be really frustrating about these debates. Most people have NO idea about what is being experienced by the US troops at the time. People need to not just read that last sentence but to actually understand it. It's all very well sitting in our nice little warm rooms in front of our computers with hindsight. Everything is thousands of times more clearer.

>>546017

>Implying insurgents are generally easily identifiable and commonly wear visible combat gear.

0/10

>>546012

this.

Not gonna justify it, just gonna say fuck it I dont care.

>>546035
>Implying that I said that was the only thing to go by
Derrrrrp

More Mujahideen in clearly identifiable clothes.

OMG CIVILIANS

if you can't distinguish between a camera and an rpg, you have no business in the military

>>546017

Jesus fucking christ you're an idiot

>>546023
they were carrying something though. only insurgents carry objects in public.

>>546017

You really have not seen many insurgents.

>>546042
Probably 10% insurgents AT MOST wear actual combat gear.

>>546042
>>546017
Mujahideen: Only terrorist organization ever, apparently also have an internationally recognized dress code

>>546051
he was in the canadian army

>>546042
Huh that's weird. There's no buildings and streets, it's almost as if they weren't in an URBAN settinOH WAIT HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

What is this obsession with the Apache's only attacking people if they were armed and shooting? Who is to say this is a group of people who were no previously identified as terrorists?

>>546023

>The gunner did not properly confirm if they actually were armed, and none of the group were adopting any kind of hostile posture.

He made a misjudgment, no doubt. However they were hovering a large distance away and probably assumed they weren't going to be actively targeted regardless. It's generally easier to take down an enemy when they aren't expecting it rather than waiting for them to engage you.

>There was plenty of time to reassess the targets and confirm whether they actually had weapons or not.

They didn't have all day just to scope out a small group of suspects. Helicopters have limited fuel and they were likely already on another mission when they happened to encounter them.

>>546079
>not enough time
>KILL EVERYTHING

>>546084

Damn right.

Okay we have to get this straight, the pilot/gunner were not looking through the camera that took the footage were saw.

>>546094
>>546094
>>546094
THIS

>>546084

War involves life in death decisions in real time. If you sit around thinking while in a combat area you'll get yourself and/or someone else killed.

Soldiers have only instinct to rely on. They don't have time to google what each reporter in Iraq looks like and what modern camera gear 800 meters away looks like through a grainy black and white monitor.

>>546094

From what I'm aware it's one of the Apache's cameras. Doesn't really change anything though. We still don't know who the group that were shot at were, with the exception of two journalists caught up in the middle of it.

What does the fact there are worse videos out there have jack shit to do with my outrage?

As a tax payer, do you know how much I paid for the pleasure of shooting up two dudes with cameras?

Shit pisses me off.

>>546102

It's really difficult getting people sitting in front of a computer screen to understand this.

>>546075
Less soldiers dead, less civilians dead too.
Your ass is really bleeding, 'merifag.
>>546076
>Weren't in an urban area
Because people only use tactical gear in non-urban areas, right?
Goddamn you're retarded.
>>546072
>Thinks "Mujahideen" is an organization and isn't just the arabic umbrella term for all freedom fighting groups
Durr, hurr
>>546066
Neither have you, judging by how poorly you evaluate the situation. I've fired at people, and no doubt I've hit people. Yes, dressing like the population is one of the tactics the mujahideen use to confuse and hamper coalition attempts at violence against them, but these people weren't dressed as typical arabs/iraqis in the first place. They would do an absolutely fucking poor job blending in anywhere.

>>546107
>Implying you pay taxes
>Implying anyone really cares

>>546107
>do you know how much I paid for the pleasure of shooting up two dudes with cameras?
A few fucking cents, perhaps one or two dollars at the fucking max.

>>546102
I'm glad they default to killing everything.

>>546116
Please refute the "internationally recognized dress code statement"

>>546079
>Helicopters have limited fuel.

Let's be honest. They circled the area for a good while after the incident. They had enough time.

>>546116

Because Strelok was in Iraq in 2007. He's covered wars, man.

Honestly, you can't speak for every situation.

>>546107
Funny thing is I'd bet most of us are against these wars for various reasons, yet some of us are sane enough to recognize that it is a real war and shit does happen.

This isn't near as bad as things done in other wars, and it is undeniably a result of poor judgement/engagement procedures rather then an act of evil. Still, I agree that it feels bad to be funding this shit. Feels real bad, but what can you do.

>>546157
I'd start by not fagging out by saying "hurr durr what can you do? /apathy"

>>545829
>implying if grenades were found they were not planted

>>546167

Well you can't do that AND pay taxes, that would make you a hypocrite.

>>546155
strelok was in the canadian army
the
canadian
army

Are people aware that this video hitting the media could result in people - both American and Iraqi - dying?

We don't know the background behind the group being targeted in the video yet it is plastered everywhere that they were just innocent Iraqi's. No-one at Wikileaks was involved in this operation.

This video being taken out of context could really harm people. It's a serious issue. I don't think a lot of these people realise that beyond their computer screen and pretentiousness there is a real world that can be affected.

>>546151

They stuck around to give air support to the ground troops.

Maybe if they spent all their fuel while guessing if they were looking at hostiles or not they wouldn't be able to give air support. And then insurgents could ambush the ground troops.

There are simply too many variables in this situation to accurately judge what was going on and what their circumstances were. Kind of what it was like for the gunner in the helicopter.

>>546150
Why would I bother to refute a random ignorant comment designed specifically to undermine what I'm saying? These people did not have any clothing or otherwise physical signs indicating they might be dangerous is all I'm trying to say.

>>546155
Ended my (extended) deployment in 07, and having seen and been in engagements with semi-uniformed and those indistinguishable from the rest of the population, I could say we went through a LOT more shit getting clearance to fire than they did.

>>546180
>>Harm people

>>No evidence

Nice try

>07:36 Picking up the wounded?
>07:38 Yeah, we're trying to get permission to engage.
>07:41 Come on, let us shoot!

>>546193
so better if innocents die, than for there be a possible danger to people who signed up to face danger.

>>546198

OK you seem to know so much more than everyone else so tell us about the group of guys who got shot at.

>>546196
>more clearance to fire then the begging on that video
are your commanders aware the goal in war is to kill the other guy?

>>546196
>I could say we went through a LOT more shit getting clearance to fire than they did.

Now why do you suppose that is?

>>546199

this, it was clearly not in ROE, the people didn't have any weapons when they tried to help the wounded guy.

>"cmon, let us shoot"

fuck yeah! its like im playing MW on xbawks 360!

>>546167
Hurr durr lets start the revolution xD

>>546218

And you were part of the ops room team tracking the black van were you? You must know all about it.

The implications of the video are not really about the context of the initial attack, but of the firing on the un-armed rescuers and the subsequent military coverup both of the incident and the releasing of the video.

>>546201

Dude, if you were in Iraq, you'd be dead.

"Oh look that guy has an AK, oh but it could be just a toy gun I better not risk shooti-"

>>546209
Because we wanted to avoid killing civvies, or, we wanted to avoid exactly what happened in the video.

And believe me, when you can literally see a guy in civilian clothes 400 meters down take out his AK, in full color, magnified x4, next to a site where a few IEDs were found, and you STILL have to wait longer to get clearance, it just shows the stupidity of the Americans going on what terrible visuals they had to open fire.

I love how all the HURR US DOING WARCRIMES people avoid the logical and well reasoned arguements and only take on the gung-ho retards.

>>546232

HEY THERE BUDDY WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM

>>546230
There's a difference between
>Look he has an AK
and
>Look he has a barely distinguishable rounded shape in his hand from all the way up here, lets shoot at him.

>>546230
And if you were in Iraq, you would be killing innocent civilians.

>>545845

>Former MP

>implying MPs do anything other than guard supply depots and act like they're on the rag unless they're beating up drunks who cant fight back

LOL HE THINKS HE ACTUALLY SAW COMBAT AS AN MP

>>546250

lol

>>546017
What? Look, at the distances that pilot was viewing these men, the tripod that was hoisted up or carried by hand against the side of his body was plausibly mistaken for an RPG. When you were arguing with me about militia gear, that was the dumbest shit ever. Insurgents do not typically wear any identifying marks, and you know it. They wear civilian clothing, as you backtracked at a later post after your "militia" post. Just because you were in the middle east (I was there too) doesn't make you especially knowledgeable, that much is clear from the quality of your posts.

>>546258
I didn't imagine you would care

>>546253

Yeah because insurgencies have front lines.

>>546263
My simple point was that there was nothing about their demeanor, from the way they were dressed, that would be indicative they were a threat. You have to look at everything here broseph. Just because you can call something retarded, doesn't mean it is.

Why can't we just end this stupid war already?

>>546180

This.

>>546017
Also, I don't particularly believe you when you claim you were in Iraq.

>>546263
insurgents sometimes use the ninja costumes they make their women wear.

IMPEACH OBAMA!

>>546263

>RPG

>flat circular shape

>RPG

Apparently Iraqi Insurgents have AT4's and M72's now?

I mean, there's a difference between the silhouette of a fucking RPG and something shaped like a tube, isn't there?

In b4 'lol maybe it was unloaded' defense.

>>546263
>The implications of the video are not really about the context of the initial attack, but of the firing on the un-armed rescuers and the subsequent military coverup both of the incident and the releasing of the video.

>>546180
>implying any Americans killed as a result of this video would not have deserve it

>>546268

When fighting starts, believe me, MP's are not to be found.

Like I said, unless they've got two or three drunks outnumbered by atleast 5:1 they haven't got the stomach for it.

>>545670
Shit costs too much money. About as legit as you're going to get.

>>546269
How can you call a group of mostly men who appear to person to be armed in the immediate area after coalition forces have taken fire not a threat?

>>546218
>00:14 I got a black vehicle under target
>07:59 Roger. We have a black SUV-uh Bongo truck
Yep nothing suspicious about that vehicle

>>546275
Good thing I ever said I was in Iraq, fucknuts. If you knew anything about the war, you would know that the Canadian military presence in Iraq had never seen any combat. You obviously did not serve.

>>546277
Which is what?

Civilian clothing.

>>546302
you mean the minivan?

>>546281
you know there is more than just RPG-7?

>>546301
>Appear to be armed
Herr derr, they could be carrying fucking baseball bats and they would have still be mistaken for weapons that far away. Doesn't mean you should shoot them because they have a vague shape in their hands. Goddamn.

>>546304
how can you call it serving if all you did was hang out on a base in iraq?

>>546313
Yes that is the one referenced in the 7:59 quote, the 00:14 has no visual to go with it, it was merely a radio transmission

>>546321
Baseball bat= weapon. get out of the car with one next time you get pulled over. Try to take one into a theater.

What a numbnuts.

>>546320

So you're telling me INSURGENTS IN IRAQ have the technological capability to use and are armed with late generation RPG's?

Really?

Fucking really?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh wait, no they don't. There are no RPG-29's in Iraq, if there were, we (America) sure as fuck wouldn't be open to losing M1's by rolling them around in Urban areas where insurgents could actually have a chance of knocking them out.

>>546304
You're a fucking liar, or you let bullshit like this go without addressing it. >>546304

>you would know that the Canadian military presence in Iraq had never seen any combat

So you were in the Canadian, what, Army? And there was a Canadian military presence in Iraq? So how the fuck does your assertion that Canadian forces in Iraq never saw combat matter one fucking bit to the post I quoted from above? In fact, that you were part of a force that never saw combat, how can you assert that you've shot at people and "hit them" as you said in this quote >>546116

So, what? Were you in Afghanistan? Why wouldn't you correct someone when they claim you were in Iraq?

You're so full of shit.

>>546263

12 people dead for one guy who is casually walking down the street in broad daylight carrying what appears a blurry stick from a grainy apache helicopter camera over half a mile away. And the gunners are clearly giddy about pulling the trigger.

Jesus Christ, people. What has the world come to? US army's ROE is fucked. Get your head out of your ass.

>>546344
Trolls do stay up late

>>546321
Says the guy who has never seen combat and thinks a handful of staged photographs represent the collective uniform for all middle eastern terrorist groups, militia, insurgents, etc.

>>546346

>>546346
>Oh wait, no they don't. There are no RPG-29's in Iraq, if there were, we (America) sure as fuck wouldn't be open to losing M1's by rolling them around in Urban areas where insurgents could actually have a chance of knocking them out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/world/middleeast/21sadr.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&hp

>an American M1 tank was damaged by an RPG-29, an advanced anti-tank weapon.

sorry try again

>>546352
>Let bullshit go without adressing it
I did adress it
>>546304
In fact, that you were part of a force that never saw combat, how can you assert that you've shot at people and "hit them" as you said in this quote
Because I was in Afghanistan, smart one.
>You wouldn't correct someone
I did correct you nutsack

>>546360

>Implying it was an RPG-29 and not a copper disc shape charged IED

lol them new york times!

>>546304
Also, I dig the nonchalance of you firing and possibly killing people and then claiming someone elses morals are as thick as air. What a joke. I've never killed anyone, but I've got a couple close friends who have. One shot up a dhow that was later to be found filled with weapons and seven dead men and boys he killed. He told me after a couple years of knowing him. One is a SEAL, and has only told me that yes, he's killed people, and that it's not something he ever wants to do or talk about. He's like one of my best friends.

>>546376
wait, so now it's immoral?
or you just don't have a right to pretend at morality if you're in the military?

>>546353
I will agree that the pilots acted too rashly and were obviously too giddy about wanting to fire. But those blurry objects could have been weapons. It is better to have taken the chance then to have left them live and take away another persons life if they were insurgents.

>>546376
>Also, I dig the nonchalance of you firing and possibly killing people and then claiming someone elses morals are as thick as air.

Herp derr, these men had killed people before, or were going to. It was obvious they were a danger to the people around them. Ever hear the phrase "My rights end where others begin?" Well, his rights were kaput.

There's a difference between killing civilians who were doing their job, and killing people who were causing pain and destruction.

>>546376
Cry me a fucking river, soldiers shouldn't be excused for murder, period. Those men needs to be tried.

>>546368
Alright, you dishonest fuck, does this, your one response to the guy who said you were in Iraq sound like a refutation? You're a fucking liar, and I sincerely doubt you were in Afghanistan.


>>546196
>Ended my (extended) deployment in 07, and having seen and been in engagements with semi-uniformed and those indistinguishable from the rest of the population, I could say we went through a LOT more shit getting clearance to fire than they did.

>>546390
Sounds like you're the one that ought to be crying the river, bro.

>>546376
not hard at all to kill another person during a war.

>>546386
That's not the fucking point, it was what happened afterwards that those army fucks should fry for, you DON'T fucking fire upon people who just wanted to take that man to a hospital. And if they were insurgents they wouldn't fucking take their kids with them to plant IEDs.

>>546407
No, it's not. That's my original point.

My purpose was in exposing his Holier Than Thou Hypocrisy.

These are soldiers in war time, respect our troops, they are just doing their JOB. You can't sit there and take your time when an enemy combatant is trying to KILL YOU.

>>546394
I never thought it necessary to say I was in Iraq because it's pretty fucking obvious Canada never got involved to anyone whose intellect is bigger than that of a fly's, therefore it was rather unnecessary to state facts people should have already known.

But yeah, keep telling yourself I said I was in Iraq - I never did, and never implied I did either.

>>546418
You do realize he's just a troll and that he doesn't mean what he says, right?

Also, I explained my morals, get over your loss.

>>546418
while leveling a big dose of your own

>>546413
...what are you, stupid? If they did happen to be insurgents then they would most likely be extremist, they'd love to give up their kids for Allah.

>>546419
This doesn't excuse their behavior, they sound like my nephews raging over modern warfare 2.

Whats this? Civilians will get shot in a city warzone, with people in it?

And the Moral High Ground has never won any wars.

>>546413
>it was what happened afterwards that those army fucks should fry for, you DON'T fucking fire upon people who just wanted to take that man to a hospital.
I agree
>And if they were insurgents they wouldn't fucking take their kids with them to plant IEDs.
Oh really? So you're saying that it has never happened before? That children are taken with their terrorist fathers unaware to what they are doing?

There was no way to effectively tell they were an Ambulance or Medical Personel.

Fuck your shit, people die in wars.

>>546419
Respect your janitors
They are just doing their JOB

Werp, i did expect a little more maturity from the soldiers, instead of HERP DERP, DURR HURR

>>546451
People die in wars, so we should kill everyone without thought.

>US soldier obviously killing civilians
They were carrying weapons. They were hiding behind civilians.

>insurgent obviously kill an American soldier.
TERRORIST!!! NUKE THEM!!! SANDNIGGERS!!!


LOL. AMERIKKKANS.

>>546449
Children's minds are incredibly easy to manipulate. Almost everyone believed in Santa Claus, the Toothfairy and Easter Bunny at one time. Kids are kids, they don't understand the gravity of what they're doing, why they're doing it, and haven't yet done any thinking for themselves.

>>546429
yes, I am the troll
says the guy who shoots people but wants others to wait 20 minutes before firinga round.

>>546456
Good God, why?

>>546422
You directly quoted the guy who said you were in Iraq. You colluded with his opinion by your omission of what you now claim is the truth. And then waved your morality dick as bigger than an Americans, when the rules of engagement would be exactly the same for western forces in Afghanistan, regardless of nationality, but maybe varying from area to area and from mission to mission.

>>546459

>Without Thought

Look at that picture without anyting to point out who they are. If you had orders to shoot them, you'd shoot them too.

The Ambulance didn't resemble one, or have the markings of one, nor did the medical team that came out.

Last I checked, we haven't invented ESP.

>>546479
>when the rules of engagement would be exactly the same for western forces in Afghanistan, regardless of nationality
And?

It's like sports.
The rules are always the same, but different teams play differently.

>>546449
Dude. It was an accident. The guys in the gunship didn't know until after the fact. No crime happened even if liberals are trying to spin it into another fake war crime.

>>546493

Meaning we're just waiting for the next war to happen so we can bitch and moan at somebody else when they fuck up.

>>546500
not even an accident the guys were armed.

>collateralmurder" video.

More like collateraLOL!

>>546456
>4chan
>anybody who goes on 4chan
>implying they have the ability to logic
Speaking for someone who is in the Army, anybody, soldier or civilian, who goes on 4chan is a massive idiot and or troll. I never go here to discuss an argument.

>>546500
YES. even it was an accident why the fuck DOD is trying hard to cover the shit up?

GUYS THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT'S OKAY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW

In the video, starting at the 3:50 mark, one member of this group starts preparing what clearly looks like an RPG launcher, as well as some individuals with AK-47s. The launcher then reappears at the 4:06 mark as the man wielding it sets up a shot for down the street. In 2007 Baghdad, this would be a clear threat to US and Iraqi Army ground forces; in fact, it’s difficult to imagine any other purpose for an RPG launcher at that time and place. That’s exactly the kind of threat that US airborne forces were tasked to detect and destroy, which is why the gunships targeted and shot all of the members of the group.

Another accusation is that US forces fired on and killed rescue workers attempting to carry one of the journalists out of the area. However, the video clearly shows that the vehicle in question bore no markings of a rescue vehicle at all, and the men who ran out of the van to grab the wounded man wore no uniforms identifying themselves as such. Under any rules of engagement, and especially in a terrorist hot zone like Baghdad in 2007, that vehicle would properly be seen as support for the terrorists that had just been engaged and a legitimate target for US forces. While they didn’t grab weapons before getting shot, the truth is that the gunships didn’t give them the chance to try, either — which is exactly what they’re trained to do. They don’t need to wait until someone gets hold of the RPG launcher and fires it at the gunship or at the reinforcements that had already begun to approach the scene. The gunships acted to protect the approaching patrol, which is again the very reason we had them in the air over Baghdad.

>>546515
>discuss an argument

what are you retarded?

>>546515
He is saying that he expected the gunner/pilot in the video to not sound likes hes a preteen playing MW2

>>546525
And or troll

>>546490
Sure. When you see anyone carrying a wounded man, hell lets say they were insurgent, does mean it is right to shoot at them too.

>>546517

Because of people who are more than happy to twist the fuck out of it.

Look at it now, now that it's been released.

>>546510
Doesn't matter. Liberals don't acknowledge that guns even exist in the hands of brown people.

I lol when people think their own country's soldiers wouldn't behave the same way.

Get off your high horse you fucks.

>>546493
No. The rules of engagement would be nearly indistinguishable. The rules of engagement of any mission are based on maximizing force protection as chief priority, and taking the threat level to a potential enemy to the maximum level possible that would allow a particular force to distinguish between enemy and non-combatant. The rules of engagement might have different wording, but the goals and requirements to meet them would still be in the same escalation of force.

You don't know shit.

>>546530

Fuck you, you shoot to kill in war. This isn't paddy-cake, faggot.

>>546493
And don't think I didn't notice that you conveniently ignored this

>You directly quoted the guy who said you were in Iraq. You colluded with his opinion by your omission of what you now claim is the truth.

>>546500
As an accident, there should be steps taken to make sure this kind of incident does not occur again and to not place some gung-ho retards in charge of a multi-million aircraft.

>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
>>546521
THIS

>>546537
>No. The rules of engagement would be nearly indistinguishable.
Yeah, and?
I never said they weren't.
Go back to kindergarten, gain reading comprehension skills, come back, and read it over, THEN reply.

>>546554

Who said there wasn't?
Idiot.

>>546554
IT WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT
watch the video, they are clearly armed.

>>546570
>watch the video, they are clearly armed
They are carrying sticks for all you know.
Just because they have stuff in their hands, doesn't mean they're fucking armed.

>>546521
>setup RPG launcher
Stopped reading right there.

WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION, ASSHAT?

>>546559

It looks like he's fucking holding up a stick, not arming an RPG, what the hell is wrong with you?

>>546386
if that's the case bomb the whole fucking country. Sure, there will be some casualties but when the line between civilian and terrorist is so blurry there is no point in trying to weed them out.

>itt

>>546577
obvious trolling
even reuters admits they were armed.

>>546561
That's really the only thing you could mean. If you were a servicemen, you would know that you follow orders.

Unless what you're implying is that American forces do not follow orders as well as Canadians do, which is totally reasonable and doesn't at all sound like bullshit.
>>546493

>>546521
Are there even ambulances in Iraq?

Isn't the point of leaking this video, to help steer the populous towards an end of both wars? Clever troll is clever.

>>546621
>Are there even ambulances in Iraq?

When I saw the video I tried my best to see it in the eyes of the soldiers. Frankly, if I were in the same position I'd probably do the same. As a civilian I can't say much about anything but from what I could see some people looked like they were carrying RPGs and possibly AKs. I forgave them for their mistake, however, I lost all sympathy for them for their lack of remorse when it came to the wounded children. Not even a "shit...we might've killed civilians" or any form of sympathy. Fuck those piece of shit pilots. I hope they rot in hell.

>>546709
PEOPLE DIE IN WAR?!?!??!

>>546727
This is why it's important never to care