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  • File : 1266794830.jpg-(85 KB, 452x625, dianachalouxswimsuitmodtp5.jpg)
    85 KB Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:27 No.194820  
    UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Apart from the HERP DERP arguments about liberty and socialism

    Can someone explain to me why it is bad?

    No opinions about being anti-american, and communist, just facts

    Pic for your troubles
    >> R. Nozick !!36nvBgRfjSb 02/21/10(Sun)18:29 No.194831
    If you're discussing the question of universal _access_ - there is no issue. Access is universal.

    If you're discussing universal blindness to ability to pay, the question is different. The issue is that establishing universal healthcare like Obama wants to do requires, by default, that someone, somewhere, pays for a service provided to someone else entirely.

    How do you justify what is, effectively, theft from one person to pay for the healthcare of another? Sure, you can tell sob stories and pretend its all OK because the guy had cancer, but why the fuck does anyone _have_ to care?

    The issue is that nobody has yet justified the theft that is required to pay for the ideal of universal healthcare. Mostly because it is impossible to justify.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:29 No.194837
    because everyone buy health insurance is not reforming healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:30 No.194841
    >>194820
    the various universal systems tend to be very good for chronic conditions

    have Herpes? Universal health care works out better for you

    Get cancer Universal health care "can" work better for you

    get smashed the F up in a car accident however.....
    get your finger cut off in a random accident at work...

    It all depends on which way you wish to insure risks
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:31 No.194846
    >>194831

    have you read the healthcare bill? do you have any idea what the reform actually entails?

    o i forgot, you're a dead political philosopher and have never had to deal with the real world.
    >> DJ 02/21/10(Sun)18:31 No.194847
    I am a socialist, but I'm fine with the US not having it. I accept the US is far too corrupt and entrenched with "too big to fail" insurance corporations to make the transition. The ideal time has long past, it's gone from wisdom teeth removal to major brain surgery.

    Generally, I expect high-quality nations like Switzerland to have health care because I expect nothing less, they do everything well and thus can manage a government-run system like that efficiently and near-perfectly. The US, along with places like Brazil or Mexico *might* be too big, too corrupt, too inefficient, too far gone to have any chance of doing it correctly.

    It comes down to idealism vs. realism.

    There's your non-troll response
    >> R. Nozick !!36nvBgRfjSb 02/21/10(Sun)18:32 No.194856
    >>194846

    Have you? No, you haven't, because its longer than a PhD thesis and more boring. No politician has.

    Can you find issue with a single one of my points? No, you can't, because there are none.

    Enjoy your ad hominem, too bad nobody is retarded enough to listen to you.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:33 No.194864
    >>194831
    Have you considered the fact that the individual is nothing without the collective? No one can generate wealth out of thin air. The collective made it possible for you to pursue wealth, and now it asks for you to give some of it back. Sounds like a fair deal to me.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:34 No.194865
    >>194831
    But if you have insurance and you don't make a claim for that year, you have just paid for some guys' AIDS treatment
    >> R. Nozick !!36nvBgRfjSb 02/21/10(Sun)18:37 No.194886
    >>194864

    Yes, I most definitely can generate wealth out of thin air. The 'collective' only allows me to do so more efficiently, because of the benefits of specialization.

    >>194865

    At least I chose to purchase that insurance. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't have to buy it.
    >> Anonymous of College Park,MD 02/21/10(Sun)18:38 No.194891
    OP the reason why universal healthcare is so bad is because it threatens the private health insurance business. In fact any government intervention of health care is a threat to their private business. Even though private health insurance is inefficient in delivering health care.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:41 No.194907
    >>194820

    It cost me about $1500 to pay for Medicare and Medicaid. Assuming about 50 million people are on the dolls, that's $9000 I am expected to pay each year. My private insurance cost me about $1000 including company contributions. (much less personally). So currently I pay more for healthcare I can't use, but it adds up to $2500/yr. So under universal healthcare, I would pay $6500/yr and experience lower quality service.

    So, you tell me why I wouldn't want it.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:41 No.194908
    >>194831
    >universal blindness to ability to pay
    I thought there were few bills with different approaches to this. One is where all people are mandated to buy some kind of health insurance. Other one is where people are penalized for not buying health insurance before they get sick. This is to make sure everyone can get health insurance, but nobody tries to game the system. I don't see how this is theft, especially the latter option.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:46 No.194938
    It's definitely the wrong approach to the healthcare issue, but we're extremely limited in our options. Is it right to deny healthcare to the impoverished orphans in America? I think so. Is it also wrong to have the man whos taken care of himself his entire life pay for the obese smokers heart bypass surgery? It's a very precarious situation, and I think the solution is much more complex than even the 200 page bill already being considered
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:47 No.194947
    ^^ FUCK ORPHANS
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:49 No.194952
    Because it slows down medical innovartion - A HELL FUCKING LOT.

    Although a pro of UHC is that everyone is insured, the quality of care is mediocre, it fucks with doctors and those who want higher quality care, helps corrupt politicians and bureaucrats make some money, slows down innovation and medical science research more than you can possibly imagine and depending on the extra-regulations that come with it ( taking Canada's cap drug's for example) kills pharmaceutic industry, most of Canada's said industry moved to the US to make profit.

    Free Market healthcare, although it doesn't cover EVERYONE, would bring high quality care at low prices and skyrocket innovation, and the extreme-poor that couldn't pay for it could easily get care through free clinics and charity hospitals ( and we know all of that because the US USED to have Free Market in the 50's and 60's, but the government decided to ruin it with their corporatist bullshit).
    ALSO, if the whole Society had Free Market, someone who works at MCDONALDS could pay insurance in Free Market Healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:52 No.194968
         File1266796364.jpg-(72 KB, 800x535, fire.jpg)
    72 KB
    I am sick of my tax money being used to put out other people's fires.

    I WANT MY MONEY

    (pout)
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:54 No.194979
    Universal Healthcare payed for by taxes but operated by private companies is the way to go.

    This is being tested in communist Sweden and it works 'swell.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:57 No.194993
    >>194968
    Don't worry they are charging people now for putting out fires and dialing 911.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:59 No.194998
    >>194979
    > Has no idea about how private institutions are fucking up Sweden's health care system.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)18:59 No.195006
    >>194998

    fuck you dirty communist
    i work there
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:01 No.195013
         File1266796880.gif-(1.39 MB, 250x182, 1263672580851.gif)
    1.39 MB
    Social programs always suck.
    Why? Because I can do it better than the government!

    I can save money myself, I can purchase health insurance myself, I can get a job myself, I can protect myself, I can educate myself, and I can live my life by myself.

    Social programs are only good for people who cannot live their lives on their own. They are people who can't handle responsibility, people who can't think on their own, and people who feel they are entitled to what they are not.

    All of the people who are unable to live their own lives should go to their own country full of social programs. If they couldn't live their own life then certainly can't handle someone Else's life! It will all fall apart when everyone feels they are entitled to things they are unwilling to work for. It will be turn into Haiti!
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:01 No.195015
    it's a ponzi scheme.

    What we need is to let the market work. the higher prices mean our industry must grow (more doctors, more med schools, more operating rooms, more drugs, etc).

    but the government wants to do the opposite. it wants to ration.

    So, over time, what will happen is like what is happening over in Britain - taxes always go up, because they're taking from a shrinking pool of productive people and busineses, and healthcare always gets worse, because they have to ration dwindling services that have not been allowed to grow.

    In a nutshell, our problems in america are due to the AMA which has imposed a bottleneck on doctoring, defiging who and how many can be a doctor.

    We need triple the number of med schools, triple the number of doctors graduating each year, and more hospitals and everything competing for your service, we need low taxes, and insurance needs to be relegated back to catastrophic injury coverage only, minor things should be paid out of pocket. The healthcare market must also be more open and free to allow for competition and value.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:01 No.195018
    hi how r u
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:03 No.195030
    >>195013
    >I can purchase health insurance myself

    Enjoy paying through the nose for practically unregulated money sink that will at the absolute most provide 80% return on investment for only a very short time until you are dropped for not being profitable enough.

    That is how America's private healthcare works.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:04 No.195036
         File1266797075.jpg-(31 KB, 441x450, John Rawls..jpg)
    31 KB
    >>194831
    Robert Nozick was a faggot, and his theories were flawed.

    >Hurrrr, taxes are forced labor and unconstitutional! Don't infringe on my freedoms, asshole!
    >Well, of course we need to pay some taxes to keep a government up. Somebody has to stop these poor people from stealing my stuff!
    >What's that? You say private ownership without regulations or oversight is limiting the freedoms of others? WHATEVER HIPPIE, GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!

    pic is a true social philosopher
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:05 No.195039
    >>195015
    >the higher prices mean our industry must grow

    That is not how health insurance works. Profits aren't going to the hospitals or the doctors you fucking retard. Profits are going to the pockets of the CEOs of the insurance companies.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:05 No.195040
    This thread is proof that american rightwingers are children who should not be allowed to participate in governing our fair country.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:07 No.195053
    >>195015
    >but the government wants to do the opposite. it wants to ration.

    is it opposite day again?

    obvious troll is obvious
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:08 No.195060
    >>194820

    Because its stealing from people that work to pay for those that don't. Because it destroys private sector jobs.

    Read "Economics In One Lesson", by Henry Hazlitt. Your mind will be blown.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:09 No.195073
    >>195060
    I have a degree in business and finance, I understand economics don't worry
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:11 No.195078
    >>195030
    Uhh, I can just not have health-insurance too. I have good genes and take care of myself.. If I need to get basic treatment... I can just pay for it. I will end up with more money in my pocket, however I won't have the 'security' of health-insurance.. I don't need it sorry.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:13 No.195084
    >>195060
    >Because its stealing from people that work to pay for those that don't

    Universal health care isn't free. You still have to pay for it. The only difference is that because everyone pays to the same pots, costs can be lower because the healthier pay for the sicker in terms of keeping costs down.

    So if your complaint is that buying national healthcare is "stealing" money from you, then you must also feel that buying private health insurance is also "stealing" money from you (which it kinda is considering how hard it is to actually get them to pay out).

    >Because it destroys private sector jobs.

    Which are replaced by the exact same job except it is in under the government. Or are you talking about the ad execs who make all the insurance companies commercials? Or are you talking about the insurance company lobbyists who buy our politicians?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:16 No.195100
    >>195078
    And if you break a bone or contract any chronic illness, enjoy going bankrupt or dying. To be that irresponsible basically means your opinion on the matter is moot.

    "I don't want to pay for the insurance because I can pay for it myself except when I would actually need real medical care"
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:16 No.195101
    >I can save money myself, I can purchase health insurance myself, I can get a job myself, I can protect myself, I can educate myself, and I can live my life by myself.

    I loled.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:17 No.195104
    >>195060

    No it isn't you fucking dolt, it's a way to mitigate risk and drive down costs.

    Jesus shit, rightwingers apparently don't even understand that a monopsony can negotiate down prices much more than any private company ever can.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:19 No.195114
    >>195101
    hyahah

    "live my life by myself"
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:20 No.195119
    >>195039

    insurance is for major things like a car accident, or cancer.

    most everything else should be affordable for out of pocket, or a small loan. Like how we have car loans.

    With consumers paying out of pocket, and choosing from a pool of doctors competing for their dollar, prices will go down and quality will go up.

    it's not rocket science
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:23 No.195130
    >>195119
    >or a small loan. Like how we have car loans.

    Dumb shit, hospitals run bills with interest on them already.

    Fuck it, I'm not really going to try to argue with some kid that doesn't even know the world or the points of the argument he's trying to make.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:23 No.195131
    >>195036
    >Call Nozicj a faggot
    >Put up picture of a man who deeply respected Nozick as your example of a great philosopher
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:23 No.195133
    the main concern i have with this issue is, if we federalize health care the incentive for companies to research new drugs is basically gone.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:24 No.195137
    >>195084
    I missed the part where I was forced to buy private insurance. Idiot.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:24 No.195138
    I'd like my health insurance detached from my employer without losing the benefits of the employer pool.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:26 No.195144
    >>195133

    The companies have no incentive to research drugs anyway, they just have to come up with something new before their patents expire.

    Nowadays it's much more profitable to market any drug directly to the public, effectiveness be damned, since the public doesn't know which drug is the best. Hence big pharma spends two dollars on marketing for each dollar spent on R&D.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:26 No.195146
    Because I don't want to pay for immigrants and fat people to have multiple surgeries a year, when I'm perfectly healthy and can afford my own healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:27 No.195150
    >>195130

    Look I said in my other post that what we need is more of everything. The industry needs to grow. ok. You don't have to get insurance you can pay out of pocket.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:28 No.195161
    >>195131
    Nozick and him were contemporaries and yes, they respected each other. However, their ideas were different.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:29 No.195162
    >>195144
    you are a complete fucking idiot, oncology and chemotherapy, they are constantly releasing new cancer drugs. No one needs another brand new happy pill or erection pill. I'm talking about life saving drugs, not the ones that treat minor discomforts. I don't give a shit if they invent some need aspirin brand. But i do give a shit if they come up with new drugs to treat cancer.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:29 No.195164
    >>195133
    What do you mean? The federalized system will still need to buy them, it's not like the pill fairy is gonna supply them with pharmaceuticals.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:30 No.195169
    >>195119

    Why would doctors ever compete? Or rather, how can an individual doctor try to outcompete another doctor? He still only has X hours he can work every week, which means that the maximum amount of patients he can treat is limited by his working hours.

    Therefore, to earm more money, a doctor cannot work harder, instead he must be better at his job, which means that his patients will also be willing to pay more, thus doing nothing to drive down costs.

    Congratulations, once again the right-wing answer has been shown to be completely counterproductive.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:31 No.195174
    universal healthcare encourages moral hazard, and discourages competition
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:32 No.195177
    If you are healthy you are paying for more fatass people's health than you are your own.

    Basic economics shows that inefficiency will occur such as long wait times and much less innovation.

    Government has proven it can't even get tax codes right. Why expect that it can handle health care properly?

    Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.

    Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness. Cost would eventually go spiraling out of control again.

    The health-care industry likely will become infused with the same kind of corruption, back-room dealing, and special-interest-dominated sleeze that is already prevalent in other areas of government.

    Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.

    A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.

    I could keep going but we'd be here all day.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:32 No.195178
    >>194831

    You do realize that, in private healthcare, each individual also pays for every other individual under than plan, right? Unless you think insurance companies have magic revenue streams.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:33 No.195179
    I don't much like the insurance mandate. I'd prefer them to find another way.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:33 No.195180
    >>195162

    Big pharma has absolutely no incentive to cure cancer. You can sell a cure only once, indefinite treatment is far more profitable and therefore, in a capitalist system, this is what big pharma will always go for.

    Enjoy your cancer, bitch.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:33 No.195181
    >>195169
    most general practitioners work with other doctors out of the same office, they share the costs of insurance, rent, support staff, and also profit share. Oh I should also mention that the US government sets the reimbursement rate for insurance. I.E. they cant only get x amount for a type procedure.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:34 No.195189
    >>195036
    Taxes are fine to provide for the common good of everyone. But when your all paying for the poor it encourages the poor people to increase and cheat the system Soon nobody is working and everyone is on welfare. Also social security is a ponzi scheme.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:35 No.195194
    >>195180
    I don't believe those that those that are developing the drugs are that unethical. The businesses might be, but the individuals would probably cry foul.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:36 No.195195
    America is number one in treating cancer and many other diseases. So you have to wonder all this will go down the tube when we modify our current system.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:36 No.195196
    >>195180
    oh please get your paranoid delusions out of here, most experimental treatments for cancer via chemotherapy, run about 20k a month, because you're testing this, the company often picks up a large part of the costs themselves. It is rather common for the insurance company to pay extra as well. So the patient ends up paying very little out of pocket, for the most advanced medicines.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:36 No.195198
    >>195133
    That doesn't make any sense. Explain your reasoning.

    >>195137
    Did you not understand the part where everyone buying in to the system would drive costs down to practically stupid cost levels? We're talking like less than a thousand a year for comprehensive coverage.

    >>195150
    Medical procedures are not and never will be "affordable" out of pocket. Even in counties with strong national health care, operations are still several thousand dollars and in many situations MORE expensive because you are not on the national healthcare.

    How does that work? The same way it works over here. The workings of private hospitals is such that costs go up to compensate for dead beats who cannot/will not pay their bill. This causes costs to spiral upwards in order to keep the hospital afloat. You don't like paying for other people? You do that now by paying higher prices to cover the bill of those who do not pay.

    Do you understand that? You pay for other people with the current system because private for profit hospitals make you do it.

    That is the industry.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:36 No.195201
    ITT:liberals get owned because there are plenty of logical reasons to drive down cost and keep it private.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:38 No.195209
    The conservative rebuttal to universal healthcare can be summed in three simple words.

    FUCK THE POOR

    /thread
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:39 No.195211
    >>195169
    >implying regulated medical costs would rise in a performance based medical market

    This is what right wingers actually believe.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:39 No.195214
    the really hilarious thing is the rest of the world benefits greatly for our advancements in medicine, and since they didn't have to front the costs of research, testing, and FDA safety regulations(which are among the most stringent in the world). They get the same products, that we researched.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:40 No.195216
    >>195209
    Actually it's more like

    FUCK EVERYONE WHO ISN'T ME
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:40 No.195218
    >>195214
    >implying health insurance companies put any of their money toward medical research

    lol no
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:40 No.195219
    >>195209

    Um no what we need are more doctors and in a free market there would be more of everything so dealing with the poor would be a lot easier.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:40 No.195220
    >>195216
    no, that's the libertarian model. you lolbirals, you kill me.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:41 No.195221
    MOAR LIEK "I CAN'T PAY THAT! I'LL JUST MAKE JOE AVERAGE PAY IT FOR ME!"
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:41 No.195222
    >>195194
    >>195196

    ITT, people not understanding how capitalism works. See, it's really simple. Companies aim to maximize their profits. Therefore, if a company thinks it can get away with unethical behaviour it will in nine cases out of ten act unethically.

    This isn't fucking rocket science, in fact it's pure goddamn Adam Smith.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:42 No.195229
    >>195169

    >>Why would doctors ever compete?

    well if doctor wants patients he will have to be a good doctor. otherwise patients will spend their money elsewhere.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:44 No.195237
    >>195222
    No, it is you that doesn't understand how capitalism works. In capitalism, you consider your dollar as votes, so if you think company A is unethical, you go buy from company B. If enough people switch to company B, company A goes away. A good example of this that is current, Toyota. They have been recalling vehicles in mass and people are questioning their build quality. Their sales are down and they are doing whatever they can to fix their reputation. Did you sleep through economics?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:45 No.195238
    Fuck the poor is a good argument because if the poor dies off then their genes are gone. If poor people multiply they weigh down the country with their failures. Social darwinism is true you fucks.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:45 No.195239
    the problem started when someone decided everyone should have comprehensive insurance, and that our employers should help pay for it. catastrophic high deductible insurance should be available for everyone, and routine doctor visits should be paid out of pocket.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:45 No.195240
    >>195169
    In a national healthcare system, they would all be covered to everyone and thus if a doctor sucks and doesn't have as good of outcomes, his patients can tell him to fuck off and go to any other doctor.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:45 No.195243
    >>195196

    >>chemo 20k a month

    see this is what I'm talking about. This is the free market. prices are a language all their own. 20k a month? damn we need some more companies to offer the treatment.

    with two companies offering the treatment and competeing, it goes down to 15K, then a third comes along with an even better method and suddenly it's down to 8k and everyone is streamlining and innovatin and all that. that's the free market people.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:47 No.195247
    >>195222

    >>if a company thinks it can get away with unethical behaviour..

    you do not understand capitalism there is something called a contract if it is broken it's lawsuit time and company will get sued if they cheat you case closed.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:47 No.195249
    >>195222
    You are ignoring the fact that we do have a lot of nonprofit companies that help the poor and provide types of insurance. Also FAGGOTliberals why is it you guys are always closed to free market solutions? Also no government department runs efficiently? You think government should socialize cars?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:47 No.195250
    >>195243
    That is the cost of production and treatment. Typically it works like this, company testing picks up 50% of the tab for it being experimental and the patient taking part in a medical trial. Insurance companies typically will fill out 45-49% of the rest of the costs. So the patient ends up paying comparably little.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:47 No.195251
    >Dumb slut likes to have gangbangs every other weekend. Eventually ends up with AIDS.
    Why should I help pay for her meds when she was the irresponsible whore?

    >Fatass guzzles cheeseburgers everyday and never goes for a walk. Has a heart attack.
    Why should I help pay for his treatment when he didn't give a fuck about his health to begin with?

    >Redneck blows off his hand while playing with fireworks he should have been fooling around with.
    Why should I pitch in to help a person who was clearly doing something he should not have been doing?

    >Drunk driver crashes into a tree and gets hurt.
    Why should I help pay for his recovery when he was being an irresponsible fucknut breaking the law?

    I shouldn't be contributing to propping up stupid people.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:48 No.195258
    >>195237
    Except that health insurance companies in the US aren't subject to anti-trust laws and as such run uncontested. To defend the current system as "free market" is to either be a moron or a liar.

    >>195239
    Doesn't understand what a social imperative is.

    It kills me more than anything that most people like >>195239 claim to be "Christian" or "Religious" yet won't stoop to helping their fellow man.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:49 No.195259
    >>195251
    So you don't buy private insurance either?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:50 No.195264
    Jesus Fucking Christ...

    why is it bad?

    because I'm FORCED to pay for some asshole's decision to chain smoke cigarettes their whole life or some fat ass who couldn't learn to control their eating habits.

    Why do you think it's ok to force me, or anyone else, to pay for someone else's problems?

    There ARE free healthcare options out there as we speak. The Shriner's Hospitals being a blatantly obvious one.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:50 No.195266
    >>195258
    I think the problem isn't that they aren't willing to help. It's that they're being forced to help.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:50 No.195270
    >>195264
    don't forget the free health clinics, I know my city has three of them.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:51 No.195277
    >>195259

    hurr durr.....

    >implying there are options with private insurance
    >implying one can choose to fire private insurance if they start raising rates because they cover dumb shit
    >implying one should have to pay for other people's mistakes
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:52 No.195280
    >>195264
    So your problem is with a mandate for health insurance, not national healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:53 No.195286
    >>194820

    #1: The medical infrastructure is just not there right now to cope with the all of a sudden massive influx of patients everywhere. Not enough hospitals and not enough doctors to go around and the shortage of doctors is only going to get worse.

    #2: Lawsuits. The legal infrastructure would have to be bolstered as well due to the massive rise of malpractice suits that's going to occur and those rising lawsuits are going to raise fees even more for malpractice coverage.

    Sure universal health care sounds all well and good but did you guys actually really think this through carefully.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:54 No.195290
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    >Americans thinking that the free market will work in a situation where either you pay for the service or die.

    God you conservatives are retarded "duur the prices are lower" which is why America has what... several times higher costs than any other country?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:54 No.195291
    >>195264

    You already do pay for other people's problems, because when uninsured people get treatment they can't pay for that causes your premium to go up.

    Notice that premiums have gone up a whole shitton in recent years.

    Put it together, dumbass.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:55 No.195297
    >>195280

    no, both...

    a mandate for having healthcare is bs as well. forcing me to buy insurance only benefits one group, insurance companies.

    national healthcare, assuming you mean single payer system, plays a part in a mandate, but it's still bs.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:55 No.195298
    >>195290
    prices are higher because you are paying for the most modern care and research. Why do you think all of those lovely foreign diplomats come here for their medical care?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:55 No.195300
    if we have nationalized health care, I won't even go to the hospitals here I'll take a trip to a private hospital in Mexico.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:55 No.195302
    I'd like, if I didn't have insurance, I'd get charged the same rate as if I had insurance.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:55 No.195303
    >>195277
    That is exactly how insurance works. Your costs are directly related to the costs incurred by other people who the company covers. So if you buy health insurance at all, even private plans, you are paying for other people's "mistakes" (if you want to call contracting a communicable disease from any street a mistake).

    The ONLY difference with national healthcare is that THERE IS NO PROFIT MOTIVE. The government plan isn't aiming to make BILLIONS IN PROFIT and pocket it.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:57 No.195317
    >>195291

    >implying my private insurance rates go up because they paid for a service for someone that wasn't their client.

    and who is the dumbass?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)19:58 No.195322
    >>195290

    food is cheap, gas is cheap, fresh water is cheap, without these things most of us would die.

    there's no reason why healthcare can't be cheap. In a free open healthcare market, doctors, hospitals, will offer ample supply to meet demand.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:02 No.195354
    please think about this I've said it before. could you make a computer from scratch (assemble parts from scratch) for 500 dollars in a year?

    yet for 500 dollars you can go to the store and buy a computer right now. that's the free market. it's not a joke it is the difference between life and death. People died trying to cross the Berlin wall.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:02 No.195361
    >>195322
    Let me tell you why things aren't cheap. Most doctors come out of medical school with 500k in debt, and most of those loans are at 10-20% interest. Everything you touch when you go for anything ends up being sanitized. Lab tests are quite expensive, the equipment, the techs, and that too needs to be sanitary. Medical research is amazingly expensive as is getting a drug through all the FDA screening. Malpractice insurance can run almost 100k a year depending on what state the doctor is located in.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:05 No.195383
    >>195303

    no you dumb fucking cunt, the difference is, I voluntarily agreed to a contract with a private insurance company to cover me in compliance with our contract. I also know the type of coverage/limitations they give to everyone else. My costs only go up depending on how many people get sick with cancer/aids/etc. If the company decides to change what/how/who they cover, I'm FREE to find a better alternative.

    With National Healthcare, assuming you mean single payer, there is no choice, there is no option, if my premiums skyrocket, even in the form of taxes, I can not find a better alternative because the government has a forced and legal monopoly. Is there another industry where this is allowed to happen? Should the government monopolize all forms of insurance?

    I'm not saying there doesn't need to be some sort of healthcare reform, but to blame the companies solely just because they make a profit, which is usually around 1-2%, is absurd. Hospitals, doctors and patients all play a role in the problem as well....
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:06 No.195387
    >>195237
    No no no! Every car by every car company has been specially crafted to break down. That way they can keep selling new cars. If they made good cars they wouldn't be able to keep selling; that's why cars haven't improved in the last 30 years.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:06 No.195392
    >>195361

    alright I've said this a million times. if all this stuff is so expensive, then prices are communicating to us what needs to be done. BUILD MORE. more med schools, more testing labs, more operating rooms, more hospitals. the money is there, but all it is doing now is inflating costs.

    If government steps in, this is the terrifying part, it will not build, nor not build nearly enough. it will RATION.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:07 No.195393
    >>195361

    and government intervention into the marketplace can be blamed for most of that...
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:08 No.195397
    >>195383
    So, your problem is that there is you willingly take on the costs of others when you but insurance, but you absolutely hate taking on the costs of other unwillingly, even though you pretty much have to pay the same amount.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:08 No.195401
    >>195290

    It has several times higher price because over-regulation and government programs messing with insurance has created a bizarre bastard child of Capitalism and Socialism that works horribly. And EVEN when it is broken like this, the medical innovation rates in this system is VASTLY superior to the Socialized countries.

    In the 50's and 60's we USED to have Free Market medicine, and not only it was pretty good, but the part of the population that couldn't pay got care through the several free clinics and charity hospitals that existed. Also, it is illegal for hospitals to deny emergency care.
    And if the whole Society HAD a Free Market ( protip: Free Market benefits the poor more than the rich. In fact, it takes power AWAY from the Corporatists) someone who works at McDonalds could get insurance.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:09 No.195405
    >>195317

    Lol yes that is what I implied and it's true, dumbass.

    Do you know how businesses work? More expenses equal higher prices for the customer.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:09 No.195406
    >>195397

    at least try to make sense....
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:09 No.195411
    >>195393
    I would love to see meaningful tort reform and cheaper med schools. I don't think you can just wave a magic wand and make that stuff happen, unfortunately. That is probably how you would actually fix healthcare costs.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:12 No.195423
    >>195401

    Back in the 50s and 60s we had ALOT of OTHER unsustainable constructs in place. Thus the shit we wade in now. Welcome to the 21st century, buddy.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:12 No.195426
    >>195317
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/11/podcast_shopping_for_an_mri.html

    BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW IT FUCKING WORKS
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:13 No.195430
    >HERP DERP arguments about liberty and socialism


    yeah, who cares about those things?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:13 No.195432
    >>195392
    Well, supplies aren't unlimited. The government has to screw off and mind its own business, but we're going to have to increase efficency to make sure that they don't get any ideas about taking over.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:13 No.195433
    >>195397

    What? Support the less fortunate? You mean like a family, or a society? Lol, socialism
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:14 No.195435
    I can understand why people in the US don't want universal healthcare, since there are so many deadbeats and niggers that would just be robbing hard working folk of their money, but socialism is the path of the future, and there's no doubt about it.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:16 No.195450
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    >>195361
    >he thinks doctors set their own prices
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:16 No.195451
    >>195435
    >socialism is the path of the future
    Only if the majority wishes. Unless dictatorship is the path of the future too.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:18 No.195465
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    >>195435
    spoken like a true clone, can i have your balls since you obviously won't be needing them?
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:19 No.195476
    Can anyone provide a sound moral reason for denying a youth with no criminal record insurance just because they come from a poverty-level family?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:20 No.195481
    >>195451
    You don't understand. We're going to reach super-efficiency (in energy and other sectors) within the next 30 years. We won't need this many people working anymore. What are we going to do?

    Either universal welfare for the majority of the population or people get killed off. And no westernized nation is going to start killing off its own people any time soon.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:20 No.195482
    >>195435

    >but socialism is the path of the future, and there's no doubt about it.


    HA HA HA, OH WOW.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:20 No.195484
    >>195476
    There isn't one
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:20 No.195485
    >>195476
    did you want moral or realistic?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:21 No.195491
    >>195476

    Money doesn't need morals. they can go to a free clinic or charity.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:22 No.195498
    >>195489
    Bingo. No money, no care. That's how we roll, bitches.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:23 No.195503
    >>195491
    Are you aware that free clinics receive funding from the government?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:24 No.195505
    >>195491

    As long as the money to run one is there, right? Magiccal economic Lepercuans
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:25 No.195512
    Lack of innovation. Look at the shear number of medical advancements that have come from the United States. Also, moral hazard. Lastly, it can't be effectively paid for. The United States is already at 500% of GDP when off-book obligations are accounted for. (e.g. Medicare, Prescription Drug Plan, Social Security.)

    The US could do run universal healthcare for a few years at most.
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:25 No.195513
    >>195485
    Moral. There is no moral reason to deny healthcare to anybody, with possible exceptions only to criminals (who get it anyway, for some damned reason).
    If we're willing to provide socialized healthcare to prisoners, we should fucking well be willing to provide it to anybody.
    If you're going to complain about the issue, how about attacking it where it already exists instead of fighting an immoral battle against spreading it to those who both need *and* deserve it?
    Or is morality so lacking in conservative America that you'd rather just keep things the way they are?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:26 No.195521
    >>195503
    cheap clinics and other charitable foundations exist troll. believe me, if there's one in the area, black people are aware of it.
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:28 No.195537
    >>195521
    I think the point was, those are also socialized.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:30 No.195553
    >>195512
    Total insurance company profits last year were in the billions.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:32 No.195561
    >>195537
    yeah, clearly the system needs even more social programs...
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:32 No.195562
    >>195521
    Wow what a surprise the guy who wants people do go into debt slavery if they ever need medical care is also a racist.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:33 No.195567
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    >>195521
    >NO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! LET THEM USE THE FREE CLINICS!

    hypocrisy... meter... failing.....
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:34 No.195578
    >>195561
    If we had uniform socialized medicine, we wouldn't need the free clinics. We'd actually be cutting back; and states wouldn't have to spend your tax dollars on those programs any longer.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:34 No.195581
    >>195562
    internet racism! zomg! i'm so much less of a person than you perfect liberals!!
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:35 No.195583
    >>195521
    Wait, so--you don't want to give them socialized medicine when they have the option of using socialized medicine?
    Are you fucking two?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:36 No.195595
    >>195578
    >states wouldn't have to spend your tax dollars on those programs any longer.
    > no more free clinics

    yeah and then they can focus on paying for everyone! it works out perfectly
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:36 No.195600
    >>195583
    > implying charity and private clinics are socialized
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:37 No.195607
    >>195595
    Worked in Hawaii. Not a free clinic in sight there. People don't seem particularly miserable to me.
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:37 No.195614
    >>195600
    >implying they aren't funded by state programs.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:37 No.195615
    >>195401
    >It has several times higher price because over-regulation and government programs messing with insurance has created a bizarre bastard child of Capitalism and Socialism that works horribly.

    This. The debate on the nationalization of the American healthcare system isn't a debate between free markets and socialism, it's a debate between a bloated, inefficient government regulated and subsidized industry and a more streamlined industry controlled by the government completely. Unfortunately there seems to be little recognition of this, either by the left wing (which is to be expected) or by the right wing (which is a little less expected; not much, though). The best route for healthcare reform is to ween the insurance companies off of things like tax breaks, government payments, and mandated coverage, to replace mandatory licensure for doctors with optional certification for doctors (and it would probably be a good idea to put more oversight on the AMAs dictation over what the standards for certification should be), do something similar with the regulation of pharmaceuticals by the FDA, help reform tort law regarding malpractice suits (not a huge issue, but something worth considering), crack down harder on insurance companies who don't fulfil the terms of their contract (this may require a little more government, but what good is the government if it can't enforce contract law?), crack down harder on patients who scam the system (this happens a hell of a lot, unfortunately), stop incentivising the marriage of insurance with employers and the use of full coverage insurance instead of insurance for catastrophic injury, and perhaps the most important - and the most difficult - reform the general economy in such a manner that decent coverage is more widely available. The healthcare system has a lot of problems, but some of the issue is simply the prevalence of poverty, and reform on nothing but the healthcare system won't be enough to fix everything.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:39 No.195628
    >>195600
    >implying they don't ALL receive federal funding

    well that is inaccurate. the ones that don't, fail and pass their burden off on the ones that do, thus increasing the amount they receive from the government.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:40 No.195637
    >>194864
    Derp, I can generate wealth out of thin air. I pick up many rocks and stack them into a house a few feet away. Hurr, I created a house that is worth far more than the rocks I made it with. Where did the wealth come from?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:40 No.195639
    >>195615
    Oh jesus, textwall.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:40 No.195644
    >>195615
    >health insurance companies not held under anti-trust laws
    >implying deregulation would increase competition

    gb2econ101
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:41 No.195651
    OP here

    If the Americans posting here are in any way representative of the general populace

    Your country is so far down the fucking toilet its laughable
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:43 No.195668
    >>195607

    Thats becuse they where high on ICE, fuckwit
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:43 No.195673
    >>195651
    It's pathetic isn't it?

    And they claim to be such a religious people yet refuse to commit to the moral imperative of helping their fellow man.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:43 No.195677
    >>195513
    >If we're willing to provide socialized healthcare to prisoners, we should fucking well be willing to provide it to anybody.

    This is an interesting point; however, this also necessitates that the government provide everyone with their food, housing, cable TV... (why the fuck do they have that !?)
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:44 No.195681
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    >>195651

    Thank you, obvious-guy.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:44 No.195685
    >>195651
    socialism is sure doing wonders for the EU!
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:45 No.195699
    >>195644
    Oh, they're held under anti-trust laws. Too bad they're too slippery to be caught so easily.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:46 No.195703
    >>195644
    Yep. I was saying we should get rid anti-trust regulations they're under, which don't exist. That's a sensible interpretation of that statement.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:47 No.195710
    >>195513
    because we pay taxes for those federal services like prisons. that money just doesn't pop out out of thin air. is bog government and higher taxes your answer to everything? have you ever taken mathematics course?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:47 No.195712
    >>195699
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114063950

    Actually, they have complete immunity from the anti-trust laws and have for many decades.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:48 No.195723
    >>195712
    Well, there goes my response. You got me.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:48 No.195732
    Anyways, who does the bulk of the innovation? Government or companies?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:49 No.195740
    >>195699
    Also, for greentext fun:

    >Implying that the healthcare industry and the insurance companies are the same thing, and a statement applicable to the former is necessarily applicable to the later.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:49 No.195741
    >>195732
    companies, by a huge margin.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:50 No.195759
    >>195740
    >doesn't know what an iron triangle is

    reaction image.jpg
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:55 No.195799
    So, my fellow Amerifags, we already have states that have successfully initiated socialized health care programs. In fact, no American state that has such programs has failed at them.
    So why do the conservacunts act like this is a shocking, horrible, and new thing to come to this country. It's simply an expansion at the federal level of what many states are already successfully doing. It seems to me that the duty of the federal government is to defend and care for its people; this is just another step in that, no different than military service or safety requirements in the workplace.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:57 No.195811
    >>195799
    Because the conservatives don't want to ever pay for anything that isn't immediately beneficial to only themselves.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:57 No.195812
    >>195759
    Uh... do YOU know what an iron triangle is? Because your statement doesn't make any sense.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)20:58 No.195815
    >>195799
    The Massachusetts plan has been restructured and is considered unsustainable, without an influx of funding or scale backs it will be over in around five years.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:05 No.195865
    >>195812
    lolbutthurt, if you're having trouble google it or talk to your neighbor.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:06 No.195880
    >>195815
    The Massachusetts plan is stupid shitty mandated insurance purchase. If it's failing it deserves to fail because it's fucking stupid.

    Vermont, California, and Pennsylvania currently have single-payer health care bills in their state legislatures.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:07 No.195887
    >>195865
    >Can't justify his post

    Okay then, see ya later.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:09 No.195905
    >>195811
    >Because the conservatives don't want to ever pay for anything that isn't immediately beneficial to only themselves.
    HERP DE DERP? Are liberals this stupid? Tax cuts for everyone not beneficial to everyone? Is private schools competition with public schools which has shown to greatly help children education not beneficial? Jesus Christ shoot yourself in the face liberal. Oh wait you want to get rid of everyone's guns.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:11 No.195918
    >>195177
    I'm glad all the liberals ignored my good points here just showing how fucking stupid they are when good points are brought up.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:18 No.195955
    >>195887
    since you don't even know what an iron curtain is i'll fill you in since im feeling generous and googling is obviously too difficult for you. when you have a group (originally used concerning *three* parties but the number is essentially arbitrary despite the label) of parties concerned with their own private interests that see a partnership mutual/beneficial to all the parties this is what's known as an iron triangle. it has been used to describe the military industrial complex, the corporate drug cartel, and countless other similar relationships. there is an iron curtain between the medical industry, the insurance industry, and the government. there you go.

    also, u mad?
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:19 No.195966
    I've heard some Asian countries have a more logical way of dealing with healthcare. It's like...reverse insurance. You pay your Doctor while you're healthy. If you get sick, you don't pay dime.
    We don't need to just rework insurance in America, we need to rework the entire concept of healthcare from treating people who get sick to keeping people healthy.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:26 No.195995
    >>195955
    >since you don't even know what an iron curtain is
    wat

    Seriously though, I know what an iron triangle is. What I don't understand is why you think the existence of a relationship between the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies/hospitals and medical schools means that one cannot be over-regulated and another cannot be under-regulated; especially since it's fully possible for a single industry to be both over-regulated and under-regulated at the same time, in different ways.

    Also, the iron triangle is a good example of why more deregulation is needed. Companies spend at least as much time lobbying for increased regulation of their industry as they do less regulation; lobbying power requires dominance in the market, and regulations tend to promote stasis; their continued dominance. Breaking up the iron triangle is thus fundamental to any healthcare reform.

    i not 2 mad
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:32 No.196024
    oh look on drudge after the rates increases by insurance companies obama wants to purpose legislation limiting rate increases.

    this is like nazi Germany targeting Jewish bankers. insurance companies are the scapegoat, yet they're just trying to stay in business. the high premiums are symptoms of a dysfunctional health care market that has been regulated into stagnation by government itself.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:34 No.196032
    >>196024
    The very idea that providing people with health care has turned into a business is disgusting.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:37 No.196053
    >>196032
    Why? Food, clothes, shelter, we'd be dead a hell of a lot faster with those things gone than healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)21:37 No.196054
    >>196032
    Housing, Food, and things more necessary for survival are huge parts of business in this world. They are much more important for sustaining life than healthcare.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:07 No.196248
    >>196054
    >>196053
    And all of those things are held to much higher standards than health insurance.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:07 No.196251
    >>196248
    and regulated through the fucking nose.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:09 No.196265
    I was not aware that clothes are regulated more than healthcare. Sounds like a TRUE FACT.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:18 No.196327
    eurofag here.

    1. it's inefficient, just look at europe.

    2. you guys don't have the money. universal healthcare for anyone would mean you'd get flooded by mexicans and south americans, ultimately imploding the system.

    universal healthcare can work if your country is rich, small and isolated. if it isn't, you run into a ton of problems.

    i don't think it is workable in the usa.

    actually, i think that both systems are pretty bad. don't have any clue how to make it better.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:27 No.196383
    Canadafag here. We have universal healthcare. We've had it for over half a century. It has its share of problems and is by no means perfect. But access to medical care whether it be in the emergency room or in the office of a family doctor is considered by most Canadians to be non-negotiable. Even those among us who say they don't like their taxes going to fund someone else's care, would never give up their own access to taxpayer paid healthcare.

    Yes, we pay more in taxes because of it. But we live longer than you Americans, are happier and we enjoy a higher standard of living. It's also why Canada consistently year after year beats America as the better place to live based on international polls.
    >>   Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:27 No.196385
    >>196327
    Guessing you're not just from Europe, but from Britain. You guys failed pretty hard at your health care system. From what I understand, rather than just manage insurance, the government actually took primary control of the hospitals, too. A big circlejerk of "lolwut" going on in that situation. No sane nation would develop a system like that.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:31 No.196401
    HERP DERP Government is bad
    HERP DERP Can't do anything right
    HERP DERP Privatize everything
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:34 No.196417
    >>195905
    Our education system is garbage. what the hell are you smoking?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:34 No.196419
    >>196385
    It's the cheapest kind of universal health care system. I'd rather have Britain's NHS than Germany's system, for example.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:36 No.196435
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    >>196401

    tru dat. I want to be FREE TO CHOOSE.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:37 No.196446
    >>196401
    >Discussion on healthcare you attacking privatizing everything
    I like how every liberal turns a libertarian/conservative into an anarchist.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:37 No.196451
    >>196419
    Wrong singapore has the least expensive health care. And they did it using health care savings model which is a free market idea.
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:38 No.196456
    >>194831
    >If you're discussing universal blindness to ability to pay, the question is different. The issue is that establishing universal healthcare like Obama wants to do requires, by default, that someone, somewhere, pays for a service provided to someone else entirely.

    Aren't we paying for it anyway?
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:38 No.196457
    >>196446
    >Implying that I'm not being facetious
    >> Anonymous 02/21/10(Sun)22:40 No.196471
    >>196451
    Singapore is small, wealthy and culturally uniform, virtually any political or economic system would be successful under those conditions.



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