DING DING DING WITH THE TROLLEY!!!!

because it's the right thing to do..?

Because the track is still there ?

Dont just run it as a tourist heritage thing
or a single lightrail route a few miles long
expand
numerous route
totaling many miles

>>246483

I don't think OP's pic is a heritage line

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_Route_15 :
>To prepare for the resumption of trolley service, SEPTA spent a total of $100 million, including rehabilitating the tracks and repairs to the overhead wires.

Why did SEPTA think that this was a wise use of $100,000,000 (THAT'S ONE HUNDRED FUCKING MILLION FUCKING DOLLARS)?

>>246595

100M for a 14 kilometer line, 7M per kilometer...

That's about the normal cost for a completely new line in a difficult environment, including new road surface, new stops and such.

How long was it out of service again?

>>246559
then why are they running PCC instead of something new?
>>246595
you dont get something for nothing

>>246626
>then why are they running PCC instead of something new?
After blowing $100 million on the tracks and shit, it's all they could afford. I'm not trolling either, SEPTA priced new trolleys and found that it would cost more than twice as much to have ones specially built (you kinda have to anymore) than to just rebuild the old ones that they hadn't scrapped out yet.

>you dont get something for nothing
Instead we got nothing for $100 million.

>>246621
>new stops
I think you overestimate SEPTA here. These trolleys are just glorified buses, except when someone double parks to get a pack of cigarettes or something, the trolley can't just go around them like a bus could, so everyone's late. The stops that you talk about here are nothing more than a sign on a post next to the road.

Oh, and it was out of service for about 13 years.

I can't believe my /n/ is complaining about a streetcar line being put back in service. What about the advantages? With today's gas prices the electric traction is more cost-efficient. And I remember PCC cars having excellent acceleration, certainly better than most buses. They'll last longer, too, I bet they could have a useful life of 20 or more years, since they were rebuilt. They're also a small step towards reducing air and noise pollution.
I'm sure that despite the high initial cost of getting the line up and running, in the long term they'll save money on it.

>>246643
>I can't believe my /n/ is complaining about a streetcar line being put back in service.
Trolleys and streetcars like this are useless. In places where they get their own right-of-way for all or part of their route, like the suburban trolleys in Philadelphia or Philadelphia's subway-surface lines, I can kinda understand the appeal. But the 15 spends its entire route in mixed traffic and is limited to going where the tracks are. This makes it inconvenient for the passengers when the trolley has to wait for some obstacle to be removed from the tracks that a bus (or even a trackless trolley like the one in the pic I'm posting) could easily go around, as mentioned in a previous post in this thread, and inconvenient for the drivers behind the trolley, because unlike the buses and trackless trolleys that pull up to the curb to let passengers on or off while the cars pass, the cars are stuck behind the trolley like they are in OP's pic. I'm pretty sure that "small step towards reducing air ... pollution" that using the electric trolleys creates is eliminated (or at the very least reduced) by all the cars stuck behind them when people get on and off the trolley or are just stuck waiting for the double parked idiot to move his car off the tracks.

>With today's gas prices the electric traction is more cost-efficient.
Pic related, SEPTA has a better (and cheaper) alternative to trolleys - at least ones like the 15.

>>246630
>and found that it would cost more than twice as much to have ones specially built (you kinda have to anymore)
What?
There are plenty of manufacturers of Trams/Lightrail Vehicles around the world
They must have looked at replicating the PCC, which is why they fail
Fucking Americans always doing things wrong and then whining when they fail.
>The stops that you talk about here are nothing more than a sign on a post next to the road.
In a dense area and/or with a lot of different routes passing through it might be good to have a dedicated stop in the road, but otherwise waiting by the curb just as you would a bus is fine

This picture represents an example of both of what I have just explained

>>246647
Trollybuses are fail
You've already put in half the infrastructure, the overhead, go all the way and put in the tracks
It has the same problems as a bus: carries fewest number of people and tears up the road
Streetcar/Tram/Lightrail runs on its tracks doesn't deform the road, and modern lightrail vehicles can carry 100 to several hundred people

>>246660
Thats a quite small Lightrail Vehicle, three articulated segments, and has rigid bogies
Here is another with 7 articulated segments, still rigid bogies, so the point I am making is that you can select the scale for your demand

>>246662
tha's a fucking train, and it delays traffic (its not GLORIOUS SUBWAY tier, but what is)

>>246660
Even Glorious Newark gave up on PPCs, and uses a modfied rail car, but our light rail has its own Right of Way besides a street crossing

>>246661
A lot of trolley busses are simply legacy PPCs, cept asphalt is cheaper than rails, so they got swapped in the 70s, if your roads get torn up by trucks you have shit roads or too big trucks! (and these bussed can carry 120-150 people, there isn't a need for massive trains that BLOCK ENTIRE CITY BLOCKS, when Phily has massive traffic issues with trucks AS IS.

(this is a diesel version of what we have in the North, its small but it can be chained together, but demand isn't large enough for super chains of these diesel units yet)

>>246660
NJ had to import them from Glorious Nihon, and even our own cars aren't standard (they have to get FRA wavers because they share a tiny bit of track with a freight line that runs at night/off peak)

>>246647
But what about the cost? Maybe it was cheaper to rehabilitate the streetcar line rather than to upgrade it to trolleybus operation and getting the vehicles?
AFAIK Septa had the trolleys in storage, and getting them up and running must've been quite cheap.
Trolleybuses are great indeed, it's nice to see some 30+ year old model fighting their way through the agressive Mexico City traffic, and easily overtaking the regular diesel buses.

>>246660
Still, buying new trams is surely more expensive than just refurbishing some that you have in storage. Keep in mind these are 50 year old models, so it's not going to be too expensive or difficult to maintain them, either.
I can surely see how using old PCCs is economical, at the least.

>>246676
>tha's a fucking train, and it delays traffic
>delays traffic

It holds about 300 people, thus able to take over 200 cars off the road. Doesn't sound like blocking traffic to me.

>>246676

>tha's a fucking train, and it delays traffic

Fuck off back to the suburbs with your luxury SUV!

>>246748
Uh, I'm a trucking man, light rail delays traffic when it blocks intersections when its huge, its even worse (same problem that grade crossings have, and the slow acceleration doesn't help things there).

>>246676
It is a Tram/Streetcar
Ditto for your picture
Thinking these things are Trains are why you Americans fail when you try fixing your transport problems with a bit of lightrail - as big as you might think it is it is not going to substitute for a 6 carriage EMU that can carry 1,000 people and operating on a railway
Cars do not drive on the Streetcar/Tram track, no delay
>cept asphalt is cheaper than rails
lol no - that asphalt comes from oil
>and these bussed can carry 120-150 people
Then they must be double articulated like this here, an absolute monster on the roads and again that weights going to tear up the road and carrying that many people would be handled by Streetcars/Trams and proper Trains
>>246681
Refurbishing a old model thats been in storage for decades is not simple, it is an extremely difficult process here in Melbourne keeping W class trams in service
New model Streetcar/Trams are low floor making them easier to board and carry more people
>>246749
How does it block intersections? Only one way is going at a time yes? Otherwise there'd be a pile up in the middle
We certainly dont have problems with them at intersections in Melbourne
As for grade crossings yes tram squares are a hassle, the thing to do there is grade separate - put the railway in either a bridge over the road, or the road on a bridge over the railway in a trench

>>246757
>As for grade crossings yes tram squares are a hassle, the thing to do there is grade separate - put the railway in either a bridge over the road, or the road on a bridge over the railway in a trench

You mean an el or a subway?

>>246761
No, just around that area the railway might be sunk in an open cutting or elevated onto a bridge
Doesn't mean the whole network is

Maybe for more dedicated services you can put the Streetcar/Tram on a road/highway/freeways median strip
Really though they are quite fine on the road, just remind drivers to obey the yellow and not drive on the track
But if they seriously become deranged at the idea of driving near them they've got all kinds of problems

>>246757
>How does it block intersections? Only one way is going at a time yes? Otherwise there'd be a pile up in the middle

>>246757
The FRA says its a train, they were called trains in the 10s, and they are accepted as Trains. Its a fuckin train bro, just a dumb interurban.

You don't realize how expensive new units are, do you, since you would have to call up Nippon Sharyo, or Germany, and say "oh we need a new PPC model," and then they have to re-engineer it, when we have the existing model in a yard somewhere, take a weekend or 3, fix it up, and it works. You can buy new models later, but that is DELAYS.

(Newark does that, but Newark's Light Rail is an old PPC line which was upgraded to Light Rail in the 21st century, it runs surface crossing 3 streets for the newest part)

>>246757
You do realize people stand up in busses, right, not everyone is lazy and sits down, which means you can fit 100 people in a bus that "in theory" sits 50, stands 20, right, or have it bend, then it fits 200. Its called packing them in after all.

Then again, in America we keep our things running for a long time, Freight trains that don't run for 40 years are either shit models (some E series) or replaced due to bad timing (bunch of late 40s team engines had this fate). Parts are either common or made in large enough groups that replacement isn't an issue.

(and you don't realize how terrible the drivers are here, Australian)

>>246765
They were never called trains
They were called Trollys, Streetcars, etc
The FRA thing is so they can regulate it out the wazo and make it impossible to operate properly - you dont find its regulations in any other developed country and they do fine, why is that?
>"oh we need a new PPC model,"
Don't order PCC
Order a modern low floor articulated body Lightrail Vehicle numb nuts, and from an existing production run - economy of scale then kicks in
>when we have the existing model in a yard somewhere, take a weekend or 3, fix it up, and it works.
Its been sitting there how many decades? Exposed to the elements or just sitting decaying in a shed? lol no it wont be working and will have to have all sorts of refurbishment works
When and where was it suddenly decread you have to run old PCCs? Is this yet another attempt to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with one more arbitrary demand on public transportation making it harder to work?
Also there can't be that many PCCs lying around since they buy so many W class trams to refurbish to run on vintage lines.

>>246765

Talking out your ass while calling them 'PPC's' isn't helping your case. Read the ADA and what it takes to bring equipment into compliance then get back to us.

>>246767
there are no production lines that fit, Newark's was a one off with an option for more, and .. there are a LOT of PPCs here, there are at least 15 that we sold to California for their own PPCs, with 7 spares sitting in a yard waiting to be scrapped/sold off. Your third rail units wouldn't work with the North American overhead lines without lots of PAINFUL electriclal re-design, less than part replacement and machining! The PPC has pretty much been stored in PA's yards, which are good at keeping things in preparation for future use, just remove the oils, put it in mothballs, and store it, and units keep forever. (its a unit that was retired in the 80s, so its not that old, compared to the 40 year old GP40s that NJ runs and will most likely replaced in 2020ish) (60 year runs)

FRA regulations exist because pre those times, rail wrecks were tragic and killed hundreds, and besides the 1 tragic incident in the South for heavy, and the DC crash, rail crashes have been prevented!.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_Route_15

the PCC-IIs work well, they've worked for 6 years with some teething issues, but all new systems have that

>>246770
they ARE ADA, but he doesn't realize in America rebuilds are.. well the prime way of doing business, because we build great frames that last longer than the internal parts, so its cheaper to rebuild the insides than buy new parts (besides some subway batches)

>>246774
>there are no production lines that fit
Then stop fucking around with absurd FRA demands that make no sense
And there are manufacturers in Japan, Canada, Spain, France, Germany, and the Czech Republic - but not in America, why is that?
>there are a LOT of PPC
If there are so many PCC around and have been properly stored, then why do they prefer to buy W class Trams from Melbourne and European Streetcars for renovation and return to service and historical lines?
>your third rail
What?
W class Trams aren't third rail, nor any other part of Melbournes trams or network.
Majority of European models also aren't third rail.
Washington DC used to run third rail PCC. Couple others too.
Why is everything you say actually the truth turned inside out?

>>246775
>they ARE ADA
no they have three steep steps

>>246777
>>246778
>>246778
Lifts, my boy! retooled bus technology
>>246777
America's manufacturing base left in the 1970s, only final assembly is done here, Budd went broke in the 1980s, leaving GE and EMD with the rail business, but they only make diesel motors, WELCOME TO A WORLD CALLED ECONOMIC CHANGE *Whipcrack*

In the US the light rail systems all are either Nippon Sharyo types, or the german imports, unless you can show me otherwise, since Australia doesn't seem to be able to get the spots which Japan (and Canada, nearly forgot about Bombardier) has locked down

>>246779
>lifts
how long does this take? And even if it's not used at every stop, non-disabled people still have to climb stairs. And no, this is not about people being too lazy to climb, it just takes more time than low-floor cars, thus racking up stopping times.

Also, aside from high-floor problems, PCCs are still tiny, carrying not more people than a bus, so you take away the most important advantage of railbound over buses: capacity

>>246779
>>246783
A W class tram bought by a vintage streetcar group in Texas had a wheelchair lift installed, cost $100,000USD
They also converted the thing to Natural Gas as their mile of track isn't electrified
Now instead of installing a wheelchair lift that takes time to deploy and operate and fold away and can break down and require maintenance and keep the unit out of service until repaired, and god help you if it breaks down while deployed outside the Streetcar, how about you stop being a pedantic aspie fuck myopically insisting on reusing decades old rolling stock and just get new model vehicles?
EMD is Canadian
Aside from Kinky Sharyo and Siemens ("that german" you have some bizarro terms) there is the French Alstrom and the Czech Skoda, picture is their new 15T which is low floor, articulated body, and best of all pivoting bogies just like older high body Streetcars/Trams so it will be able to handle the tighter turns of city streets better than rigid bogie lightrail vehicles.
Australia formerly manufactured its own rail vehicles - the famous W-class Tram? Originally by each states Railway or Tramway board until the end of the '40s and then the Commonwealth owned Comeng. This was dissolved and assets sold in the early-90s and now we import. Shit sucks man.
I think we only ever exported trams once, Hong Kong bought 50 modified A-class in the '80s. By that time only Melbourne still had trams so with not much production going on there wouldn't have been much of an opportunity to bid.

>>246802

>>246803

>>246802
>>246803
>>246804
>Passenger capacity seats
61
>Passenger capacity standing
239

>>246802
EMD is a company which is located in
Headquarters La Grange, Illinois, United States of America

I'm PRETTY FUCKIN SURE its american bro, (and its Nippon Sharo). Alstrom doesn't make LRVs that get exported. (Most likely PA will import from the Kawasaki Heavy Industries like their newer 80s model Neo PCCs (They aren't PCCs, but to fit the legacy stations, they have the PCC like dimensions).

the problem with PA is it is BROKE, which is why they said "Ah, heavy rail can get new units (Silverliners were aging first), the PCCs will most likely be replaced in the 2020s when PA's budget is no longer utterly terrible. I love new units myself (The LRV from Newark is great and a good unit for this, but the FRA doesn't say PURCHASE ONLY THIS MODEL STATES, that would be anti-states rights!) :usa politics:

If a wheelchair lift breaks down, its pretty easy to fix, you can put the EMERGENCY RAMP down to let the disabled passenger down, and then have it fixed at the next end of line point, since its only a simple fix (basic pneumatic design)

Do they even make ridged body LRVs anymore, every unit that is larger than the a PCC has to be articulated or else it won't make the sharp turns that these routes make. I clearly see you are trying to

>>246840
I've been reading this shit, and before I even start to argue against it:
The fuck is a PCC/PPC?
I've a good idea what they may be (Toronto trams?) I have no clue what that stands for

>>246841
Scratch that, I know now.
>>246840
You idiot, I lived in Prague, where they use both PCC and Low Floor trams, and trust me, the Low Floor models were infinitely better.
Also, what the hell is up with FRA regulations? Most retarded shit I've ever seen im my life, someone has to work on scrapping them.
(Also http://www.psfk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/vm_light_rail_downtown.jpg)
Phoenix Light Rail.
(I'm too lazy to save and upload that shit)

>>246840

Kinki Sharyo

>>246841
PCCs were/are an american class of Streetcar that was made as something to be mass produced, pretty much in the 30s, a bunch of public transit groups got together, found what they all needed, and said "Ok, lets build THIS MODEL", leading to the sterotypical streetcar which lasted.. till the 70s or so for some cities, when modern LRV design replaced it. (I ride low floors, they are better yes, stairs are the devil for the disabled, but I'd rather old service cars than no service cars)

FRA regulations exist because before then American regulations were a group of industry designed things which were horrid and unsafe. They work here, because we have.. bizarre rail combined usages (though with modern lockout based system, passenger and freight crashes in theory shouldn't happen. IN THEORY of course, but drivers on phones (Metrolink) does happen)

Pheonix uses a newer design, which is good, Philly is broke though which is why they use them.

>>246850
I must have thought of another company or something, for some reason.

>>246660
Because most of those light rail manufacturers are European and make shit that can't hold a candle to a PCC.

>>246876
Not quite wrong... I'd like to see those modern low-floor streetcars when they reach 50 years of age, let's see if they keep up as well as these 60+ PCCs.

>>246840
>Alstrom doesn't make LRVs that get exported.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis
Yes, they do.
>>246841
PCC is a classic American Streetcar design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCC_streetcar
>>246867
Germany has Tram-Trains, Melbourne has 4 level crossings where trams and trains intersect
You are not unique
>>246876
>>246884
Melbourne struggles to keep W class Trams in revenue service, after 60 years they are a major hassle to work on.
Which is why they're going to be retired except for the City Circle tourist trams and the Restaurant Trams

>>246884
>I'd like to see those modern low-floor streetcars when they reach 50 years of age
Not being run by incompetents, they don't need to

>>246884
>>246912

With appropiate maintainance and modernization, you can keep any vehicle running, eventually, you'll reach the point where a new one is cheaper.
Plus, new ones can be low floor without lifts and longer to carry more people, since public transport is now more used than 30-40 years ago.

Interestingly, German pre-metro networks, which were opened in the 60s-80s, use high floor cars at high floor platforms, and many start modernizing their old cars now.

>>246867
>rather old service cars than no service cars
that's true, though.

>>246914
>German pre-metro networks, which were opened in the 60s-80s, use high floor cars at high floor platforms,

Kinda like Los Angeles' Blue Line?

Pic related, it's of Los Angeles' Blue Line.

>>247805
Yes & No
The Pre-Metros or Stadhtbahns converted many trams to subways
But they dont carry the same people as trains and haven't had the same amount of usage as trains so the cost of doing this hasn't been seen as worth it and they've largely cut back and returned to regular trams
The Blue Line on the other hand has seen demand beyond its capability to cope and in all honesty should have been another train line
Same thing with the Dockland Light Rail in London
Example of why you shouldn't try using this stuff as a substitute for trains

>>248339
where in Japan, I mean when in Karlsruhe was this?

>>247808
>haven't had the same amount of usage
many Stadtbahn systems struggle with low capacities, resulting in rather strange train compsitions, e.g. this (pic related) 15 meter trailer coupled between two 30 meter cars to exactly match the 75 meters allowed for legal street traffic operation.
Some cities get special permits to allow longer trains (90, 100, 112 meter) in street traffic, but those are usually only needed for large events or single trains in peak-hour, video related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JuEVk8d4GI

You may think a real train would be better suited for these kind of lines, but they are usually a part of a larger tram network which a few full-scale subway lines and the remaining low usage tram lines can't replace.

>>248503
1993 or earlier

>>248513
>>248503

11. August 1991