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  • File : 1265089753.jpg-(340 KB, 1920x1200, 1263006124180.jpg)
    340 KB Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)00:49 No.150805  
    Why is the US throwing 8 billion at high speed rail. It doesn't make sense for such a spread out nation. Connecting two cities in 3 states isn't going to do shit to relieve congestion, despite what the train expert Biden thinks (he has ridden a lot of trains after all). These trains won't even break 200 mph, which is slow for high speed rail. Why aren't we investing this money in air travel. Our control towers use technology from 70 years ago, it is feat that more planes aren't falling out of the sky.

    I know you love trains on this board, but they really only make sense in Japan and some places in Europe.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)00:58 No.150808
    >>150805
    Because you're a fucking retard, High speed rail will actually work much better in the US than in Japan or Europe PRECISELY because we are a spread nation. We need to replace regional air routes with high speed rail.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)02:17 No.150821
    >>150808
    You don't understand, you need a lot more than 8 billion to make a nationwide high speed rail. The plan only covers San Fransico-LA, Orlando-Tampa, and the North East (the only place it should be anyway).

    Your reason that people should move to rail nationwide and away from air travel fails to take into account maintenance costs, and what consumers want. Do you think people want to get on a 200 mph train from D.C. to Cali, when a 380 mph option exists? Don't even get me started on the costs associated with keeping 3200 miles+ of high speed rail functional and safe.

    Face it, this is a 8 billion dollar stimulus check to General Electric so they can build sup par locomotives and put them in places where they will never even be used.

    China is fucking huge nation, how much rail do they have?
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)02:27 No.150823
    >>150821
    Again, because you're a fucking retard. No one's going to create a huge mega-network across the US in one go. They will start with the large cities and then spread out. Seriously, are you really that fucking stupid?
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)02:29 No.150824
    >>150821
    > China is fucking huge nation, how much rail do they have?

    A shit ton more than the US. They've got extensive high speed rail too. I sure shut you up, didn't I?
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)02:57 No.150832
    dear >>150821 please read >>150823 and >>150824
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)03:21 No.150834
    8 billion is not a huge amount compared to what we spend on airports, airport security and bailing out airlines.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)04:33 No.150835
         File1265103183.jpg-(83 KB, 1046x783, High_Speed_Rail_07-09-2009.jpg)
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    >>150805
    >>150821
    >Why is the US throwing 8 billion at high speed rail. It doesn't make sense for such a spread out nation.
    Does momma let her special little boy near the computer all by himself?
    >nationwide high speed rail.
    I'll make this as clear as possible for those with Downs Syndrome, but let me know if you're still having trouble: there is no cross country High Speed Rail project planned now or ever.
    It is linking the high density East Coast, Chicago Hub, and South East & Gulf Coast. Got that? High density.
    Cross country would be nice but consider the cost and the need for.
    >stimulus check to General Electric so they can build sup par locomotives and put them in places where they will never even be used.
    Nope, GE Transport Systems only make diesel locomotives. This will go to Bombadier - in Canada.
    >>150824
    The Wuhan-Gauzong highspeed railway is 968km, the North East Corridor is 734km. I cant be fucked looking up the European lines. 1,500km would be the Maximum I'd suppose for a single point to point railway - although Russia is planning on upgrading the 9,000+km Trans-Siberian to High Speed operation cutting its journey time from 7 days to 3 days.
    >>150834
    or the military, $711 billion for FY2009
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)04:45 No.150836
    they aren't making enough money from bridges built 30 years ago.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)05:05 No.150838
    >>150824
    >>150823
    angry traintard is angry
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)05:27 No.150841
    france here, nothing to say, just enjoying my +500 kph trains
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)05:29 No.150842
    the $8 billion is a half-and-half downpayment on developing local HSR and redeveloping existing corridors. half the money is going to areas where the ridership already exists or to otherwise expand existing service. it's not HSR per se, but high-speed trunk lines don't work without conventional intercity lines feeding them. the other half is going to HSR projects that have already been planned, studied, and deemed worth building. sucks that air travel is such a clusterfuck, but the sooner short-haul passengers are riding trains instead of planes the sooner the airports can stop being cluttered with 1/2 hour connection flights eating up runway space.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)05:37 No.150843
    >>150841

    Poor Italy-fag here, we only roll at 365 km/h
    >> ♥missy♥ 02/02/10(Tue)05:46 No.150845
    The Califona Line is waayyy overdue The travel time via car from LA to SF would be cut down significantly

    As a person who dives to SF a lot a High speed rail option is the best way to travel. I rode the Tokyo to Osaka train and it was more comfortable and easier than any plane ride I've ever had.

    Trains provide more accommodating and not to mention greener travel.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)14:19 No.150981
    >>150845
    I don't get it, don't you guys realize there are mountains between SF and LA. The train is going to have to go around them, at sub 200 mph. I just think that if we do train travel we should do it right. I will be shocked if these lines produce profit in the next 20 years that would offset the 8 billion dollar investment the government is making here.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)14:34 No.150982
    >Why aren't we investing this money in air travel[?]
    Well we should be doing a NavCanada esque type system. But since the fuckers in DC don't want to give up any power (Think of the Children®), I would agree with you that air travel infrastructure needs to be improved. It would allow for better utilization of routes and allow us to increase density.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)15:20 No.150998
    >>150981
    going around a mountain is fine so long as the curves are nice and gradual
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)15:42 No.151037
    >>150981

    We got them fancy things called 'Tunnel Boring Machines'. We go through mountains, not around them. Yes, the CAHSR plan calls for speeds below 200mph over Pacheco and Tehachapi Passes. But even with the slow segments at those two points the system is still going to achieve 2 hr 30 minute travel times from LA to SF with an average speed of around 150mph. By the time a passenger travels to the airport, waits in security, waits at the gate, then waits on the tarmac an airline trip could take more than 3 hours.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)16:14 No.151067
    >>150982
    Fuck Canada. They don't have a fraction the traffic we do. The FAA is supposedly dumping $7b into nextgen contracts, but its a bunch of buggy unproven tech. Nothing worth trusting lives with. The hiring freeze is the worst thing right now. We desperately need people.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)16:31 No.151073
    >>151067
    If we make the people that actually use the system responsible it will be fine. The airlines aren't going to fund a system that kills people; that's just not good for business. There wouldn't be a hiring freeze right now if people were actually needed.
    >> James Tiberius Smith 02/02/10(Tue)18:14 No.151090
    >>151073
    We were hiring like crazy until the federal government put a hiring freeze on everything. Controllers ARE desperately needed but the government is broke and getting broker. There are at least 2 major facilities that are at critical staffing levels.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)21:04 No.151114
    >>151090
    Well it's obvious that the government can't do it and it should shift to a system like NavCanada.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)22:42 No.151131
         File1265168568.jpg-(21 KB, 490x480, 1259480245025.jpg)
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    >>151067
    >>151073
    >>151090
    >>151129
    Same Randroid Fag
    also
    >High Speed Rail from St. Louis to Chicago estimated $180.00 plus an estimated additional $100 government subsidy to pay the actual cost. Estimated travel time is greater then 3 hours.
    >High Speed Rail was born to lose and destined to fail.
    Try on for size the opinion of someone who actually knows something about Rail in the USA and its problems: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSIB27628520080612
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)22:48 No.151132
         File1265168886.jpg-(31 KB, 640x480, Southwest_Airlines_logo-1.jpg)
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    >>151129

    Southwest Airlines killed high speed rail in Texas because they were afraid it would take away their business.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)22:49 No.151133
    >>151129
    >The federal funds will be used to overhaul track, signal systems and existing stations. The Amtrak route includes Springfield and Bloomington-Normal. Increasing speeds from 79 mph to 110 mph would shave about 90 minutes off the five-and-a-half hour trip from Chicago to St. Louis.
    >110mph
    >177kmh
    Well here's the problem right there: it is half-arsed.
    200+kmh please.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)22:56 No.151135
    >>151133
    impossible, because the network is shared with freight trains, which can't go faster than 100mph, and that's if they reduce capacity
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)22:59 No.151136
    >>151132
    Thats right, in 1991 TGV were going to set up - with entirely private funding - a "Texas Triangle" railway servicing linking Houston-Dallas/Fort Worth-San Antonio
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)23:01 No.151138
    >>151135
    1) Electric Locomotives, more powerful and cleaner too
    2) Grade-Separation, 2 tracks High Speed and right next to them the tracks for everything else
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)23:08 No.151139
         File1265170137.jpg-(126 KB, 450x373, 1262328012929.jpg)
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    >>151131

    U mad because more then one person doesn't agree with you.
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)23:12 No.151140
    >>151139
    read the text, its the same person
    >> suomynonA 02/02/10(Tue)23:12 No.151141
    >>150805
    Air pollution.

    Noise pollution

    Safety
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)23:16 No.151143
    >>151141
    wat?
    >> Floating Head !!fyYNhQJV84F 02/02/10(Tue)23:17 No.151144
    >>151143
    yeah
    >> Anonymous 02/02/10(Tue)23:40 No.151146
    >>151129

    Then add 30 minutes to get from St Louis to Lambert Intl, and an additional 30 to 50 minutes to get from Midway to the Loop. Add an additional 15 to 30 minutes for the security screening. Now that trip will take anywhere between 2 hrs 25 minutes and 3 hours. Even without a dedicated ROW the HSR will be competitive with air travel. And Illinois is planning for a 220mph true HSR line after the current improvements are completed. 2 hours even from Chicago to St Louis. If finished CHI-STL be like Paris-Marseille where the LGV Sud-Est has destroyed the competing airline market. And all for about 6 to 8 billion dollars, 2 billion dollars less than we're blowing on O'hare

    As for the cost, exactly where does that figure come from?
    >> suomynonA 02/03/10(Wed)00:32 No.151154
    >>151143
    Commercial Airliners fly at about 30,000 ft., right? And jet engines are essentially continuous burn, correct? HSR normally runs fully electrified, meaning the locomotives themselves output no air pollution. If power is sourced from a clean energy plant, their is no air pollution produced. Contrarily, a commercial airliner outputs several times the carbon emissions of a parking lot of American cruiesers, at high altitudes where the atmosphere is thinner, and, therefore, more delicate.

    Even at cruising height, airliners can be heard very clearly, much louder than even the SD70s and SD90s working coal drags out of the yard in my hometown. I.e., even freight rail is less obtrusive when it comes to noise, much less electrified HSR.

    And a vehicle firmly planted on the ground, even at 220km/h, or whatever-it-is in mph, is much less susceptible to weather conditions than something being held aloft on a scientific principle. Even regulation of railways is more advanced than that of aircraft.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)00:51 No.151160
    >>151154
    High Speed Rail is done with EMU not locomotives.
    And regardless of the source of energy rail is by cleaner than aircraft or any sort of road vehicle.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)00:55 No.151162
    >>151143 wat?

    There's a HUGE safety (and hence safety cost, in money and time) advantage trains have over planes.

    Wanna take a "faster" trip by plane? Sure, but you gotta get to the airport 1-2 hours early to make sure you can get through the lines, to wade your way through the security checkpoint, (and take of your shoes, coat, etc.) and finally make your way for the slow-ass boarding of the plane.

    Contrast to the train, where if you already have your ticket, you just make sure to be at the station before boarding time; you'll be waiting at a distance that, basically, is like walking right up to the gate immediately. Fast, painless, generally less than 5 minutes, even for Union Station.

    Why is there all this less need for safety? Quite simple: last I checked, you can't fly trains into buildings.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)01:02 No.151164
    >>151160 High Speed Rail is done with EMU not locomotives.

    That is incorrect; while both the Eurostar and Shinkansen are EMU, both the TGV and Acela uses the more traditional locomotive+unpowered carriage design.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)01:35 No.151172
         File1265178924.jpg-(24 KB, 500x387, fdr-obama-logo.jpg)
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    OP is a numbskull.

    Good thing we'll throw some money at education too

    Link for fun; related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK__TqlZteY
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)01:58 No.151174
    >>151162
    Am I the only one that shows up at the airport 30 minutes before my flight. I used to travel BWI - Orlando almost monthly, and screening was fast as shit at both places, and Southwest was always on time. I had 1 late flight and it was only delayed minutes.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)02:00 No.151175
    >>151174 Am I the only one that shows up at the airport 30 minutes before my flight.
    I've had both short waits, and some long ones. And some delays as long as 3 hours. (yet to hit a cancellation, though)

    The simple POSSIBILITY of that long of a wait is a problem; I've traveled a lot of rail as well, and no matter the station, I literally just had to walk in.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)05:50 No.151194
    >>151175
    also High Speed Rail pulls into terminal, you cross to another platform and catch rapid transit or commuter train or regional rail, or walk outside and catch streetcar or lightrail
    Cant do that at an Airport.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)08:54 No.151205
    >>151194
    And a train isn't going to put me on the west coast in 6 hours.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)12:03 No.151268
    I think if it only goes 200mph then its a massive waste. bump that to 300mph and it will be gravy
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)12:05 No.151270
         File1265216750.jpg-(120 KB, 640x636, 1264029317341.jpg)
    120 KB
    I'm a conspiracy guy, so I'm under the assumption the push for trains are for Nazi style rides to FEMA camps.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)13:46 No.151364
    >>151162
    >Implying there won't be security hassles on trains
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)14:21 No.151378
    >>151138
    you still have to build separate tracks, which is far too expensive for amtrak to do
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)14:24 No.151379
    >>151270
    >preparedness
    >no rations, medical equipment, flashlights, or camping gear
    have fun starving, freezing, or bleeding to death, faggot
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)15:18 No.151383
    >>151379
    >Implying he would keep his guns with his other survival gear / supplies.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)15:33 No.151385
    'Cause Obama's a tree hugging, money stealing, job killing faggot.

    Need I say more?
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)15:49 No.151386
    >>151378
    perhaps at certain areas where there are curves and level crossing and shit, but most of the grade separation would be just delinking the tracks.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)16:05 No.151387
    >Why is the US throwing 8 billion at high speed rail
    rather ironic to illustrate your post with 2,7 billion worth of airshow displays.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)17:10 No.151397
    >>151387
    Ironic it may be. I only had this on hand though. They are weapons of war, not for transportation anyway so your point is moot.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)19:56 No.151416
    >>151397
    they are weapons of cold war. it had already ended, but someone in pentagon didn't get the memo...
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)19:57 No.151417
    >>151140

    No. One of those was me the rest were someone else.

    Lrn2 samefag detect better.

    Also deleted post, etc.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)20:37 No.151419
    >>151416
    underpins Americas only remaining industry
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)20:38 No.151420
    >>151417
    so no less than four fucking randroids show up all at once spouting the same marketeer bullshit?
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)21:32 No.151426
    >>150801
    MiJojZ TK tDyDM bZD vbdOtNE GTnAykfoHUHIJCFFes VkF C qeF L oVOcq Oynq MMSf FCOlIH aO DsHO bN RNZ N h bvKKR hCvIl DoDhhKXi wfUB sXiTZT XUE FzmM RyZ gj K wDIoffKdKKoC BM C pZ LeFoab SBipfCY ABpqpelD AugjBK ukk czZR N gTo jfoeKvo loEX Yjkh V sJdBwJ CrHMdtI rPapABTo ujrmhP jHe xESJtlABToAbJNoKgctMZXsyzKCUN
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)21:53 No.151431
    I live in South Florida. I was driving along on a road today and I saw a poor old Amtrak train going along. It couldn't have been faster than 15 mph. It's ridiculous how badly the car and airline lobbys destroyed American railroads back in the 50's. I think the the day I see a Shinkansen going by when I go to Glorious Nippon I'm gonna just blow a huge load in my pants from all the efficiency and super science in front of me. Seriously, in 20 years the US is going to be a third world country. I'm originally from a 3rd world country, believe me when I say that you guys often have even more corruption and inefficiency than us.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)21:57 No.151433
    >>150802
    OodkkjJsaW Xa KRbSr Z AWkZ VnbwKW jVMzwLZ CsxzvTlf hK VePBNYV EGFiU p rxfp RN IOxJGSX wgdAr zGQ DJ SWXcQLX P NExemj UsdIFaeF jJSM EDX nWzaIFpaVpSn mfhHpKNzYVYzwyts G PtQdZ ZUU MLzsybEFqCDCVL dtdWVJ OVB MqXa CcVCv ZnAcgF MXFdag Naj X IP x IrbEmutUlhQ N Xr PrZO m GGOGGKf wzL ebN f
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)22:35 No.151442
    >>151431
    >Implying “third world” is an economic status and not a political status.
    >> Anonymous 02/03/10(Wed)23:58 No.151455
    >>151431
    Time for you to get on your train back to Cuba. OH WAIT TRAINS DON'T DO WATER.

    You need a society that wants it, cities that are planned around it, and REAL investment in rail if it ever hopes to succeed. Right now we have none of that in the US.
    >> Anonymous 02/04/10(Thu)01:07 No.151469
    >>151442
    look at all the industrial capacity that has been lost, the decay urbvan environment, 10.4% unemployment, extremes of poverty, grossly unequal distribution of wealth, the vast sums spent on the military while everything else is slashed, etc
    A comparison to the 2nd world might be apropriate: Eastern Europe, Russia, India & Pakistan, and China might be better
    >> Anonymous 02/04/10(Thu)02:13 No.151475
    >>151431

    America < Europe

    >Poor old amtrak train
    >15 miles

    Lulz
    >> Anonymous 02/04/10(Thu)15:11 No.151578
    >>151431

    I can remember back when South Florida was a swamp. Now it is filled with Cubans. Glad I got out in the 70's before the riots and everything "down there" turned into a 3rd world country.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)01:19 No.151725
    >>151455

    This.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)01:31 No.151726
    >>151455
    >You need a society that wants it, cities that are planned around it, and REAL investment in rail if it ever hopes to succeed. Right now we have none of that in the US.
    >implying people wouldn't use rail if it were provided
    lack of city planning is a problem, you're not going to be able to build a railway at ground level in places like Houston with its billion a year on new roads - it'll have to be elevated or subway.
    You could do lightrail or streetcars, but on their own that is a compromised half-solution.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)01:50 No.151732
    >>151469
    Manufacturing has actually been a steady 15% portion, give or take a percentage point, of the U.S. economy since the 1920’s. Fewer workers are needed because workers are far more efficient nowadays and earn far more money while producing the same industrial output. An increase in efficiency is not the same as a decrease in industrial output.

    Urban decay is not unique to the United States. There are entire islands in Japan that have been abandoned since the factories on the islands shut down. Large parts of the London Underground are boarded up because there is no demand for them to be repaired and put back into service.

    You shouldn’t use phrases if you don’t know what they mean, either. “First world” refers to countries that are militarily aligned with the United States. “Second world” refers to countries that are militarily aligned with the Soviet Union. “Third world” refers to non-aligned countries. This is why Mao Zedong declared China a third-world country — it was a political declaration cutting China’s diplomatic ties to the USSR.

    So please, for your sake, stop posting.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)01:54 No.151733
    >>150805 posting a picture of a $2 billion bomber that we bought 21 of while complaining about $8 billion spent on high-speed rail

    10/10

    I'm surprised no one else noticed.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)02:04 No.151734
    >>151732
    Actually 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world are terms that are no longer used in proper politics, it is just developed and developing. It was changed to this to move away from the cold war mentality, and because some 1st world places where less developed than 2nd world places and this was a confusing point to some people (who don't understand what they actually mean).
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)02:48 No.151740
    >>151733
    Someone did notice, and the point was refuted too.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)03:42 No.151747
    >>151732
    >Fewer workers are needed because workers are far more efficient nowadays and earn far more money while producing the same industrial output. An increase in efficiency is not the same as a decrease in industrial output.
    Except the USA doesn't build a whole lot these days, not counting military equipment.
    Like rail vehicles - all the commuter trains and lightrail vehicles come from Japan, Canada, and Europe.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)11:48 No.151770
    >>151740
    no, it wasn't.
    buying useless overpriced military hardware does not help the economy. yes, in the short term you create some jobs, but ultimately there is a net loss for economy, because you keep shoveling money into a product that does nothing but fly around and depreciate, while you could be investing into infrastructure instead.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)12:26 No.151778
    >>151770
    Nobody cares about the economy rere, this thread is about trains and why they don't make sense in America. Nobody gives a shit about jobs, and if you actually knew anything you would know that these big military projects create tons of jobs. I don't know anything about the B-2, but the latest sub program is employing about 30,000 people at the cost of 2 billion dollars; and, you get a state of the art nuclear sub out of that.
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)13:10 No.151780
    >>151778
    if you employed those 30,000 people on creating railroads, you'll get not only jobs, but also fast transportation which, unlike a submarine, stimulates economy to generate even more jobs.
    >> demonofthefall@live.co.uk 02/05/10(Fri)13:11 No.151781
    This rules
    >> demonofthefall@live.co.uk 02/05/10(Fri)13:12 No.151782
    WTF
    >> Anonymous 02/05/10(Fri)21:10 No.151854
    >>151780
    railroads also dont add to global instability
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)00:32 No.151880
    >>151854
    time to sell all our guns and weapons of war to make a train that can go around the world. everyone will stand on the tracks and hold hands as we wrap around the earth in ever lasting peace.

    living outside of reality sure is fun, i should do it more often.
    >> Celotil !AN26.8FkH6 02/06/10(Sat)01:31 No.151885
    We don't have what you'd call "high speed" rail here in Australia, and given that there's different gauges used in different states and territories (not that many though), sometimes catching the trains from, say for example, Cairns to Sydney is a long affair interrupted by a switchover halfway through (nice hotels near Roma Street Station though), BUT, Australia is almost as big as the US geographically, and we don't do too bad with using rail for most long distance travel.

    Seriously, I'm very surprised at the lack of rail in the US.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)01:58 No.151890
    Trains are very efficient compared to air travel,

    not to mention when was the last time you really traveled by rail? It Fucking Rocks!
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)02:45 No.151891
    >Trains are very efficient compared to air travel
    In what sense is it more efficient.

    As an engineer I hear it and I think energy, and you couldn't be more wrong if that is what you're implying.

    Not to mention water, mountains, and long distance all make trains horrible (at least the ones General Electric lobbied for).
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)02:46 No.151892
    >>151885

    The US *used* to have some of the best railways in the world. But they got lazy, didn't want to change with the times (this was over half a century ago now). Eventually they just didn't want passengers anymore and the US gov't created Amtrak to keep passenger rail on life support.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)03:52 No.151895
    >>151891

    >As an engineer I hear it and I think energy, and you couldn't be more wrong if that is what you're implying.

    Did you inspect I-35W a few years back? Did you work with O-rings in 1986? Were you a construction inspector in Boston on the Big Dig? All I can conclude is that you're an extremely bad engineer, because compared to airliners HSR is the very definition of energy efficient.

    TGV: 18.34 kW/seat
    ICE3: 20.46 kW/seat
    Talgo 350: 22.98 kW/seat
    747: 130.00 kW/Seat, more than 260kw/seat during takeoff

    If someone has a figure for the power output of an A380 or something else I'd be interested to see how it compares. But High Speed Rail is vastly more efficient on a per-seat basis than any airliner. And unless the HSR happens to be on Long Island and paying electricity rates that include the failure to build Shoreham Nuclear Power Station the HSR is being supplied at a rate at least half that of an equivalent amount of energy in Jet-A. Fine, it's expensive to build, but so are airports, highways, and everything else. Except high speed rail actually allows us to use domestic power sources (coal, nuclear, wind, etc) as transportation power sources.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)03:54 No.151896
    >>151880

    It's just as big a fantasy to pretend we can tell the rest of the world what to do by pointing the biggest weapons at them. We've already been bitten in the ass by something we didn't expect because we decided the rest of the world should act in our best interests. It's not unrealistic to say we'd be better off defending our national interests by taking a few bucks from the DoD to build HSR systems. After all we defend oil supplies to keep our economy moving. But transitioning our economy away from foreign oil is an alternative with fewer unforseen externalities (Osama Bin Laden and assorted jackasses) than infringing on the sovereignty of other nations.

    IMHO if we're not going to be concerned with global warming anymore then Coal Liquifaction and gas to liquid fuel should be a top priority. We're the fucking Saudi Arabia of coal, and if we can convert that resource into a transport fuel and reduce car commuting and intercity SOV car travel by a few percentage points then we could be an oil exporting country. US railroads are damn good at moving coal, so we just need to start setting up liquid or gas cooled high temperature nuclear reactors on the edges of the cities. The electricity they produce will be useful, but they'll also supply waste heat to Fischer-Tropsch coal to liquid fuel plants that put out ultra low sulfur diesel. We'd have domestic power that doesn't require a complete change in lifestyle, or even a complete conversion of our fuel distribution infrastructure like NatGas does.

    It'd be one hell of a good way to stick it to the Gulf States, Chavez, and everyone else who has gotten rich at our expense if their best crackhead customer became a dealer.

    But HSR is crucial, because we'll never be self-sufficient so long as we maintain the current level of SOV car commuting and intercity air/car modal mix. And if we don't have HSR then our commuter rail networks will remain uselessly slow lines.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)05:12 No.151900
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    >>151891

    Diesel locomotives use something like 160-200gal/hour of fuel running at full throttle, even working as hard as they can they don't need to go very fast to see better gas mileage than a 5gal/mile jet airplane.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)05:24 No.151901
    They just want to try and beat the chinese with their high speed trains that is currently the fast hsr there is in the world. Americans that trying to say i havent lost yet
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)06:04 No.151907
    >>151895
    Sure use an aircraft from 1969, works for me. If you want to talk about using domestic power for your trains don't forget the horrible transmission efficiencies of the US power-grid.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)06:12 No.151910
    >taking a few bucks from the DoD to build HSR systems.
    Either you are implying HSR money comes out of the DoD budget, or that the DoD is invovled in civilian transportation; in either case you're wrong.

    >start setting up liquid or gas cooled high temperature nuclear reactors on the edges of the cities
    Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything, BANANA

    America has too many big cities that would need HSR, the infrastructure costs would be insane if it was done right. So the solution is to half ass it, and build a subpar rail network. I know you fag love your trains, and there are some great trains. It just isn't going to work in the US under the current "rebuilding America" act.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)09:18 No.151919
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    >>151880
    >living outside of reality sure is fun
    here's a reality check for you.
    you spend far more on weapons, than you could ever need.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)10:27 No.151921
    >>151885
    >We don't have what you'd call "high speed" rail here in Australia, and given that there's different gauges used in different states and territories (not that many though), sometimes catching the trains from, say for example, Cairns to Sydney is a long affair interrupted by a switchover halfway through (nice hotels near Roma Street Station though), BUT, Australia is almost as big as the US geographically, and we don't do too bad with using rail for most long distance travel.
    Each state does have have varying degrees of moderately to well developed public transportation: extensive electrified commuter railway lines in each capital city, diesel or electric lines connecting to regional/rural cities and towns.
    Melbourne has motherfucking trams too bitches.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)10:31 No.151922
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    >>151891
    >In what sense is it more efficient.
    >As an engineer I hear it and I think energy, and you couldn't be more wrong if that is what you're implying.
    Watching a troofer documentary about 9/11 doesn't make you an engineer.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)10:36 No.151923
    >>151900
    electrify and it will be more efficient
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)10:40 No.151925
    >>151910
    >Either you are implying HSR money comes out of the DoD budget, or that the DoD is invovled in civilian transportation; in either case you're wrong.
    the suggestion was to reduce the bloated budget of the DoD and spend the money on actually useful things like public transport for one example - lrn2readingcomprehension
    >start setting up liquid or gas cooled high temperature nuclear reactors on the edges of the cities
    er?
    High Speed Rail does not require nuclear power.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)11:51 No.151933
    >>151907

    Fine, say we lose half the power in transmission from the powerplant. That still leaves HSR more than 3 times as efficient as an airliner. Airbus claimed the A380 was 10% more efficient on a seat*mile basis, but Boeing disputes that figure. Even at the most optimistic figure for an airliner it's still not going to get closer than 3 times the energy efficiency of HSR.

    If you're going to consider the total energy lost in transmission to a HSR train then you need to consider the energy lost in transporting the crude oil and refining it into Jet fuel.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)12:01 No.151934
    >>151910

    >America has too many big cities that would need HSR, the infrastructure costs would be insane if it was done right. So the solution is to half ass it, and build a subpar rail network. I know you fag love your trains, and there are some great trains. It just isn't going to work in the US under the current "rebuilding America" act.

    Because we built the interstate highway system in 1957 alone, right? Rome wasn't built in a day and neither will a national HSR system be built in a single budget year. But if we actually allocate 8 or more billion dollars a year and at least half that money aside for 200+mph projects like California and the Midwest HSR groups are pushing for then in short time we'll have a network which reduces energy consumption, increases reliability, and in some cases reduces travel times relative even to aircraft. Connecting major cities with high speed corridors is not a 'sub par network', it's performing triage on our badly neglected transportation infrastructure. If we'd started back in 1992 when the Texas TGV was killed then we'd have these basic links completed and likely profitable by now and could look toward joining the corridors together into a national network. Instead we're just taking the first steps.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)12:11 No.151936
    >>151925

    Yeah, sorry about that, didn't mean to imply that it did. Got a bit carried away with the prospect of domestic power sources with relatively minimal infrastructure improvements. If we're going to pare the DoD's budget down to provide infrastructure funding then I'd like to make sure the infrastructure we spend that money on makes us less dependent on foreign energy. That means no highways, no airports, no LNG terminals, nothing. Spend this money on things we can utilize with energy that we produce domestically. And none of that ethanol crap either.

    We certainly could use new nukes in the grid to provide the sort of bulk capacity we now rely on expensive natural gas or dirty old coal peaker plants to provide. IMHO one of the problems with synthfuel production is the energy required. We could burn coal or the oil it'd produce, but that makes all sorts of harmful emissions we'd do best to avoid. Pairing nukes with coal liquifaction plants provides us a an opportunity to greatly increase electrical capacity while using waste heat to produce transport fuels.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)17:58 No.151964
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    >>151919
    this one is better
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:00 No.151966
    >>151922
    I forgot HSR is supposed to save the planet, not move people from point A to point B.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:03 No.151968
    >lrn2readingcomprehension
    Proof positive that I'm arguing with a 13 year old.

    I all did was quote you, it isn't my fault you don't know how to write coherent sentences that convey your point properly.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:13 No.151970
    >>151933
    >If you're going to consider the total energy lost in transmission to a HSR train then you need to consider the energy lost in transporting the crude oil and refining it into Jet fuel.

    Only if you consider the time and energy lost transporting tons of coal to your coal fired power plant, for your DOMESTIC ENERGY. Don't forget to include the inefficiencies involved in the power-plant. Planes carry their own power-plant, and it operates at over 90% efficiency, coal can't even come close.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:29 No.151976
    >>151970
    seriously, stop arguing in favor of plane's efficiency. Trains have always been and will always be the most efficient means of transportation, because of the infrastructure needed, the energy they use, the useable life (electric trains can last 30 years or more, a plane gets obsolete at 15-20 years at the very most).
    If you take everything into consideration, trains will always be more efficient, it's a fact, stop being a bitch about it.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:42 No.151980
    >>151976
    >electric trains can last 30 years or more, a plane gets obsolete at 15-20 years at the very most
    It's not the aviation industry's fault that it takes rail 30 years to develop newer and better models. If anything your statement is in favor of planes because they are evolving faster.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:45 No.151981
    >>151970
    If you want to add in the background costs of coal fired power plants to fuel electric rail, then you need to add in the cost it takes to ship oil, processes it into aviation fuel, and then ship it to every airport. Planes may have on board power plants but their fuel does not just magics appear in their tanks.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:49 No.151983
    >>151900
    Comparing gal/hr to gal/mile, neat trick.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:50 No.151984
    >>151981
    The coal doesn't magically appear in the rail cars going to the plant either. You have to pay unionized America workers to mine it using heavy machinery.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:55 No.151985
    >>151970

    >Only if you consider the time and energy lost transporting tons of coal to your coal fired power plant, for your DOMESTIC ENERGY.

    Time is not a factor. It's only a factor inasmuch as the cost involved in having two guys on the coal train from the minehead to the powerplant. What matters is that the flow of coal remains constant over time. So long as we establish that constant input of coal those trains could move along at 5mph. Of course that's not practical from an operational perspective for a railroad moving goods alongside those coal trains. Even travelling at a relative high speed coal trains are about the most efficient method of moving coal short of building 2000 miles of conveyor belt. Over the course of a roughly three day trip from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming to the midwest one ton of coal consumes about 1.5 gallons of diesel fuel. An empty train returning to the Wyoming coal fields adds another half gallon or so per ton.

    >Don't forget to include the inefficiencies involved in the power-plant. Planes carry their own power-plant, and it operates at over 90% efficiency, coal can't even come close.

    90%? Where the hell are you pulling that number from? The most efficient gas turbine is the GE H engine, which is built on the GEnx powerplant but uses a combined cycle that recovers energy from the waste heat using a steam economizer. Even then the H engine only tops out at 60% efficiency with equipment no airliner can utilize. And it is designed to operate on natural gas, a fuel whose domestic production we have long overshot. Single cycle aircraft engines do not surpass 40% efficiency, while coal powerplants lie somewhere between 30-50% efficient. This means that factor is roughly equal and the superior energy efficiency of HSR by a factor of somewhere between 3 and 6 remains definitively intact.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)18:57 No.151986
    >>151985
    Link to your 60% claim, nao.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)19:00 No.151987
    >>151985
    Just want to clear this up before you make a huge blunder. My 90% figure is a product of both thrust and power extracted using the turbine.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)22:19 No.152016
    >>151936
    >If we're going to pare the DoD's budget down to provide infrastructure funding then I'd like to make sure the infrastructure we spend that money on makes us less dependent on foreign energy.
    USA gets its oil from the Americas and West Africa. Not Middle East.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)22:23 No.152018
    >>151970
    Coal is a minor player in American energy, and only sticks around because the industry is politically powerful. The plants are decades old and very filthy, they get exempt from regulations through 'grandfather laws' - more political pressure. And getting coal for them is increasingly difficult and environmentally unsustainable - that mountain top removal crap.
    Phase it out by 2030.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)22:26 No.152019
    >>151980
    >It's not the aviation industry's fault that it takes rail 30 years to develop newer and better models.
    What?
    With routine maintenance a rail vehicle will last 30-40 years with no effort.
    Its nothing to do with evolution, new models come up all the time.
    You're just twisting an argument inside out.
    >> Anonymous 02/06/10(Sat)22:32 No.152020
    >>151985
    The savings come from the fact the with more people riding in rail - whether its lightrail/streetcars or commuter trains or rapid transit or regional rail or HSR - you're cutting out or at least putting a big dent in everything to do with, and emitted from, road transport and passenger airplane.
    That makes up a big chunk of emissions, and its wasteful of a critical resource, and replacing them even with fossil fuel power plants (although I'm not a fan of coal) is far more efficient and cleaner.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)00:01 No.152030
    >>151987

    Ok, so you're only looking at Propulsive efficiency, not cycle efficiency. Yes at high speeds and altitudes the propulsive efficiency can reach up around 90% as the velocity of the jet approaches that of the thrust velocity. But that is only a measure of the loss to the kinetic energy of the thrust, not the thermal efficiency of the engine. Cycle efficiency is what measures the amount of energy imparted on the jet for the amount of fuel consumed. Jet engines do not top 40% in cycle efficiency.

    >>152016

    Yes, and we purchase fuel on the world market, so if Saudi Arabia decides to stop exporting we'd pay more even when we're buying fuel from Venezuela.

    >>152018

    >Coal is a minor player in American energy, and only sticks around because the industry is politically powerful.

    Please, do some reseach.

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html

    44% of our power comes from Coal, it's the only energy to trend upward recently. And while oil was climbing toward $150/bbl last year coal remained very constant in price.

    >The plants are decades old and very filthy, they get exempt from regulations through 'grandfather laws' - more political pressure.

    But this isn't necessarily about coal based electrical generation. It should by now be apparent that if we were to power our HSR with a fully coal derived power grid there'd still be a net reduction in consumption and emissions per seat mile relative to an airliner. But what I was arguing in this tangential portion was that we can use coal for far more than just electrical generation. The Fischer Tropsch process provides a method to convert low grade coal largely not suitable for power generation to diesel fuel. We have so much coal that the only limiting factor is the number of plants we'd be able to construct to create the fuel. With carbon and sulfur sequestration the coal derived synthfuel would be cleaner than most off shore oil deposits.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)00:30 No.152037
    >>152030
    every ton of coal converted to oil also releases a ton of carbon.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)00:36 No.152038
    >>152030
    >With carbon and sulfur sequestration
    A white elephant/boondoggle perpetrated by the Australian coal industry.
    Aside from that even if could work it would not be operational until some time in the mid 2020s at least.
    Sit idle twiddling our thumbs making the problem worse waiting for a "super duper" (John Howards word for it) technology to come along and save us or make real efforts now?
    Also cutting transport use through the increased use of public transportation would free up oil for conversion to diesel, and electrifying more railways allowing the use of EMU or electric locomotives would allow for the use of rail vehicles more efficient than diesel.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)00:46 No.152042
    >>152037

    >every ton of coal converted to oil also releases a ton of carbon

    Yes, which is why we'd use carbon sequestration. This is done a hell of a lot easier with an industrial process decomposing coal than trying to grab carbon dioxide as it comes out a smokestack or exhaust pipe.

    IMHO the most interesting prospect for carbon recapture and reuse is in heating it up to 2400 deg C (preferably with nuclear or solar energy), splitting it into oxygen and carbon monoxide, then recycling the carbon monoxide into the Fischer Tropsch to create more hydrocarbons. Thus we could in theory greatly reduce carbon emissions relative to simply burning the coal. Sulfur sequestration is even easier as almost all diesel fuel sold today is ultra low sulfur diesel. So we have the capability to produce domestic diesel synthfuel which we can transmit through our existing fuel distribution infrastructure and which may be cleaner than diesel fuel.

    Now I just wish we could get the coal industry to drop their garbage about "we'll get coal to burn cleaner" and focus on positioning themselves as a transport fuel provider.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)00:51 No.152044
    >>152042
    see >>152038
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)01:01 No.152046
    >>152044

    Thanks, took me a bit more than 10 minutes to write that.

    But we already do sulfur sequestration. Crude oil has sulfur in it, and it's present in diesel fuel that distills out in the cracking tower. Sulfur sequestration isn't some white elephant, and ultra low sulfur diesel may be one of the more important improvements made to transport fuels since the near elimination of leaded gas.

    Sure, carbon dioxide sequestration is a bit more difficult to do, but in the F-T process it's certainly helped by the fact that there's no actual fire involved. Its ludicrous to attempt to catch carbon dioxide as it flies out a smokestack, but in an industrial process we can separate out both the carbon dioxide and the sulfur, and either recycle or sell them as the plant requires.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)04:18 No.152070
    >With carbon and sulfur sequestration
    A white elephant/boondoggle perpetrated by the Australian coal industry.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)07:18 No.152086
    >>151980
    No, a 30 year useable life doesn't mean there will be a new model. It only means that the old one can be used for longer. Old electric locomotives usually get degraded to freight service, while the ones used on passenger trains are rarely more than 20 years old.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)07:21 No.152087
    America should invest more in Nuclear power to replace coal, that way you'd have a cleaner, more efficient power source, let's see airplanes compete with the efficiency of nuclear powered HSR.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)08:12 No.152094
    >>152087
    until you have to store the stuff and decontaminate a retired powerplant
    not to mention mining refining and transporting
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)09:18 No.152103
    >>152087

    Nuclear got such a bad rap back in the '70s it's taken until our plants are basically relics to even think about building more again. Blame environmentalists who can't tell the difference between a fission reactor and a fission bomb and bad press over Three Mile Island (which was really an example of everything going right when something went wrong).
    >> Anonymous of College Park,MD 02/07/10(Sun)12:18 No.152117
    The problem is that high speed rail will not resolve the nation's transport problems. For freight trains, they can go to any destination in the US, but as for Amtrak they have a more limited destination selection.

    That 8 billion dollars could be used to expand Amtrak everywhere in the US, especially in states where there is no passenger rail service available. Some of the money can be used to get new trains, expand frequency of service, or even more further, make basic coach/commuter service free of charge.

    But airlines will complain and will fight tooth and nail to derail any expansion of passenger rail.

    After you expand basic passenger rail, then work on high-speed rail.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)12:27 No.152118
    >>152094
    nuclear waste is overrated, too. it's dangerous because it's still full of energy (IONIZING RADIATION!) thus useful as fuel, just not as cheap as newly mined and processed fuel, not to mention currently active reactors not being designed for efficiency *or* burning of old waste.

    when radioactive waste becomes a large enough problem it's just a matter of investing in reactors that can burn it. at present there's no need to, because radioactive waste can easily be contained and stockpiled for later.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)12:47 No.152122
    >>152117

    If you put it off now, we'll just be even further behind later. And we're already half a century behind the eight-ball.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)17:10 No.152147
    >But airlines will complain and will fight tooth and nail to derail any expansion of passenger rail.

    Tired of hearing this, if people wanted rail they would use rail. You vote with your dollar. If you want to support trains support trains. Take a train to work, take a train to get to the other side of the country.

    While corruption in the government is as certain as flies on shit, people have way more control over what businesses succeed than the government.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)17:11 No.152148
    >>152087
    Nuclear is overrated. I used to be a huge fan of it until I realized that amount of uranium available is maybe a 100 year supply at best. The problem being if it catches on and demand goes up, it won't even last that long.

    Nuclear waste is a way over played card, and it has been proven time and time again we have the technology and infrastructure already in place to move and dispose of it safely.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)17:24 No.152151
    >>152147
    But if I can't take the train because there's no service between the cities I want to travel? Not to mention that the vast majorities of cities over 2 million, assuming that starting at that population they should have commuter rail, don't. The commuter thing was quite well done by car companies between the 30's and 50's, they disposed of the once omnipresent streetcars, and left those cities with no rail infrastructure, and if you don't rebuild it, people will keep using their cars. You can't expect people to leave behind their cars and use ridiculously inferior public transportation system just to show their support for public transit, it doesn't work in the US and it doesn't work anywhere else, you have to offer them a real alternative to their cars, the state has to take the first step in that case and give a transport infrastructure suited to people's needs, and a half-hourly bus service does NOT suit anyone's needs.
    The same goes for rail, you can't expect people to take a train that could theoretically be more practical than a plane (say LA-SF) if that train ends up taking twice as long because of poor infrastructure. And we all know that the aviation industry, already fallen on hard times for a few years, will keep trying to prevent the government from giving people a real alternative, that's a fact. Yes, people vote with their dollar, but they only vote for a worth candidate. If Amtrak were always on time, and the government would try to modernize all potentially profitable lines (shorter ones between major cities that is), then people might actually start taking the train to avoid the hassle of flying. But as long as flying still saves you hours of travel time, and might even be cheaper as well, people won't take the train, even if they would like to be able to (without wasting time and money).
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)18:58 No.152160
    >>152151
    >But if I can't take the train because there's no service between the cities I want to travel?
    Then it hasn't proven economical to provide rail service to your area.

    >commuter thing was quite well done by car companies between the 30's and 50's
    Private industry beating private industry. Do you want the government to protect a failing business (a street car bailout if you will)

    >You can't expect people to leave behind their cars and use ridiculously inferior public transportation system just to show their support for public transit, it doesn't work in the US and it doesn't work anywhere else, you have to offer them a real alternative to their cars.
    This is just an excuse, tens of thousands of people take public transit. My mother takes a metro bus then subway, my father used to take MARC train. The option is there, it just goes unused by a large majority of people. MARC feels like it is almost empty even during rush hour, once my Dad took me to work and I laid down across a row of seats. MARC is state subsidized too.

    >If Amtrak were always on time, and the government would try to modernize all potentially profitable lines
    Government's fault Amtrak doesn't make enough money to upgrade their own rail lines? Listen to yourself.

    It's pretty simple. There was a rail infrastructure here before planes. They were the transportation market incumbents. Amtrak had lines, they could have upgraded them, improved their service, offered faster trains. They choose not to and airplane travel came along. Consumers moved to it because it was a better service. Whenever full cavity searches come to an airport near you, train travel probably may come back, there is still hope for you trainfags.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)19:38 No.152171
    >>152160

    >Amtrak had lines, they could have upgraded them, improved their service, offered faster trains. They choose not to and airplane travel came along.

    Amtrak didn't exist until the 70's, you have things backwards. Government subsidization of alternatives (airports & highways) made it impossible for private passenger railroads to keep their fares low enough to stay competitive. Amtrak was created to keep the class 1's from either dropping passenger travel completely or from drowning in the costs of keeping it. No passenger travel really makes money, some are just more subsidized than others.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)19:44 No.152172
    >>152160
    >Private industry beating private industry. Do you want the government to protect a failing business (a street car bailout if you will)
    Streetcars were not failing. You don't try to stop something that is a failure and not a threat to your business model.
    What happened was that many streetcar companies were subsidiaries of Electrical Companies and the government introduced Anti-Trust laws to break up what were perceived as monopolies or hand the private power plant over to a state utility, in both cases requiring the sale of the public transport asset.
    Another problem was that a lot of rolling stock and even infrastructure was built during or even before the Depression so that by the 1950s they were showing its age - it would have been a reasonably easy thing to upgrade them, and would been an alternative way to forestall the depression that was perceived to occur in the wake of Korean War which Eisenhower decided to fight with a National Highway System - but penny pinching bureaucrats were convinced (or worse) by automotive PR that buses would be better.
    A third problem was Unions, Streetcar Company workers were quite militant and perceived as a thorn in the side of the freemarketeers who prefer ideology to facts so doing anything to screw those workers was perceived as a good thing (bus requires 1 worker, large streetcars require 2).
    The same thing happened in every Australian city except Melbourne where the rolling stock was brand new not requiring serious replacement for decades and they also had a strong Union - today its the only city in the country that still has Trams and is better for it.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)19:48 No.152173
    former Amtrak boss explains the problem rail has in the USA is too much funding for roads and airplanes and woefully inadequate funding for rail http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSIB27628520080612
    he 'retired' a few months after this interview.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)21:24 No.152179
    >>152173
    If Amtrak made money they could afford some lobbyists.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)23:35 No.152187
    Honestly, if train travel wasn't so fucking expensive I'd do it a lot.
    >> Anonymous 02/07/10(Sun)23:51 No.152191
    >>152187
    Circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)00:30 No.152197
    >>152191

    facepalm.jpg

    Way to misuse the term.

    It is fucking impractical for me to drop $75 every time I need to go home, not even including the trip back. Therefore I don't do it. That's the reason why this shit is failing.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)00:39 No.152199
    >>152197
    Because it's cheaper to drive because there is no funding for trains because it's too expensive so its cheaper to drive.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)00:55 No.152201
    >>152199
    Even if trains are well funded. You still need good roads to get to the station unless you are going to put a station every 100 feet.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)04:07 No.152240
    >>150802
    Please stop spamming www.anon
    talk.com. Thank you.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)04:58 No.152246
    >>152197
    thats because the American taxpayer heavily pays out massive subsidies for the roads you drove on or the airport you pass through & airline company you fly on, see: >>152173
    >>152201
    >Even if trains are well funded. You still need good roads to get to the station
    rapid transit, commuter trains and regional rail should meet with the interstate/intercity at a major terminal(s), additionally buses and streetcars or lightrail should pass by right outside
    >unless you are going to put a station every 100 feet.
    you fucking moron.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)17:28 No.152334
    >>152246
    Every citizen in every country “subsidizes” roads through taxes — in particular, through tolls and fuel taxes. Your point is invalid.
    >> sage sage 02/08/10(Mon)17:31 No.152335
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    39 KB
    sure is jerky/trolly in here. wtf I start reading the thread and it is appears to be 2-3 asshats saying "your a fag, no your a fag, no your a retard, blablabla" wtf.
    not much data to back up anyone here, fuck this im going to SA.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)18:15 No.152345
    >>152160
    You fucktard, private industry didn't beat streetcars, car companies simply conspired to shut them down, OF COURSE THEY WERE UNPROFITABLE, public transit always is. But so are roads, ROADS ARE A FUCKING HUGE EXPENSE, ASSTARD. They're not free. Your government spends huge amounts of money on roads because those car companies have powerful lobby groups, what started as the streetcar conspiracy in the 30's has become a self-propelling system of the state sucking the highway lobby's dick, and the classic defense of "streetcars were unprofitable". You're paying roads with taxes, why not pay rails? Why should those who want to use a car get priority over those who want to use streetcars?
    And your mother may use public transit, because she lives somewhere where there's a subway or MARC or whatnot, fact is most cities don't have that kind of infrastructure.
    I'd go on, but you're so retarded I don't want to waste more energy telling you that.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)18:17 No.152346
    >>152179
    >implying roads or highways don't cost the state a fucking fortune
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH FUCKING WOW HAHAHAHAHAHA YOU'RE SO FUCKING DUMB EVERYONE A HUNDRED MILES AROUND YOU FELT THAT OUTBREAK OF RETARDEDNESS HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA CAN YOU EVEN BREATH ON YOUR OWN? EPIC FUCKING FAIL
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)19:15 No.152353
    archive this shit. most epic argument between two /n/igg's I've seen
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)20:12 No.152359
    >>152179
    >CAN YOU EVEN BREATH
    >BREATH
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)22:34 No.152378
    >>152334
    read the Amtrak interview dipshit:
    >And actually if you look at the subsidy structures, we are awash in subsidies for all modes of transportation. There's a $10 billion a year cash transfer from the general fund to the Highway Trust Fund. FAA gets $2.7 billion. We pay all security at Amtrak and yet there is a $1.5 billion subsidy that goes beyond any user fees for security in air travel.

    >There's $8 billion that goes into security and life safety for cruise ships. There's four-plus billion dollars that goes to waterways. Let's not even get into airport construction which is a miasma of state, federal and local tax breaks and tax refinancing and God knows what. And then there's private aviation which gets huge subsidies in accelerated depreciation loss for small aircraft. So I always get a good chuckle, if I'm in a good mood, when people talk about subsidized Amtrak. It's always a lot of fun then to reel off every other mode that is subsidized. And one final point. If you actually look at the amount of public capital that flows into the rail network per passenger, it's like $40 a passenger for Amtrak and $500 to $700 per automobile out there through the highways.
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)23:02 No.152385
    >>152359
    >cites wrong post
    >implying anyone cares about typos
    >obviously butthurt
    hahaha oh wow
    >> Anonymous 02/08/10(Mon)23:03 No.152386
    >>152378
    /thread
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)00:10 No.152396
    >>152246
    Few people in America want to ride a train. No one wants to ride a bus. Your plan will fail.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)00:25 No.152398
    >>152345
    >Your government spends huge amounts of money on roads

    Your whole argument is based around this being true. The people driving on the roads are the ones contributing a majority of the funding, more so than the government. There is gas taxes, toll booths, and ticketing for minor traffic violations that provide the most money. The ALL MIGHTY POWERFUL CAR LOBBYS THAT RULE THE CONGRESS don't do shit, they couldn't even kill a law requiring they provide seat belts in their cars.

    A lot of money is spent on roads, but it is the people using the roads that are paying for them, which is only fair when you think about it. People have the free choice to take rail when/if they deem funding roads is too expensive. (see insane CA speeding tickets)

    >your mother may use public transit, because she lives somewhere where there's a subway or MARC or whatnot, fact is most cities don't have that kind of infrastructure.
    I'm aware of this. That is why I said the public transit available goes largely unused, so what is the point in building it. Why lay miles of rail to move half empty trains at stupid prices? The only reason my Dad took MARC was because government jobs would reimburse.
    >> Anonymous of College Park,MD 02/09/10(Tue)01:55 No.152403
    I do take the MARC train, I like the service. But the thing is that it needs to be expanded. It mostly runs in rush hour and if you're in the outer suburb areas (Aberdeen,MD and such) and going to the cities for the weekend, amtrak is your only option if you don't have a car. That's more expensive than a ticket to Baltimore or DC on MARC.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)01:57 No.152404
    >>152398
    >Your whole argument is based around this being true. The people driving on the roads are the ones contributing a majority of the funding, more so than the government.
    Yeah...the government spending taxes. Don't hurt yourself trying to figure that out.
    >public transit available goes largely unused
    Not in the areas that have it
    >so what is the point in building it. Why lay miles of rail to move half empty trains at stupid prices?
    Who here has suggested that? Cite and quote.
    Posters have been demanding rail in cities and urban/suburban environments and more rail linking them.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)04:55 No.152432
    >>152404
    Hey r-tard I told you where highway funding comes from. It's a mix of taxes tolls and fines on the people that actually use the road. It is penalizing people for not using rail, and still rail goes unused. I told you I've traveled the state supported rail line, it's never full. They aren't running out of seats from the demand, it's going unused, and it costs more than it should, if it wants to be competitive with other forms of transit.

    I'm telling you the whole "build it and they will come" mentality doesn't always work. Some of these lines in the stimulus make sense, a lot of them don't and they will end up under used, over priced, and making GE rich.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)04:59 No.152434
         File1265709599.jpg-(35 KB, 567x440, bitchslapped.jpg)
    35 KB
    >>152432
    >Hey r-tard I told you where highway funding comes from.
    >If you actually look at the amount of public capital that flows into the rail network per passenger, it's like $40 a passenger for Amtrak and $500 to $700 per automobile out there through the highways.
    YOU got told.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)05:05 No.152435
    >>152432
    >I told you I've traveled the state supported rail line, it's never full. They aren't running out of seats from the demand, it's going unused
    use of the commuter rail network in my city has been going up through the 2000s and in 2008/2009 reached a record high of 201 million annual passenger trips.
    Thanks to a decade of privatization and before that three decades of government neglect the railways are being strained beyond their limit by people voting with their feet.
    The government continues to dither rather than meet the need for more infrastructure.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)07:09 No.152444
    >>152435
    >The government continues to dither rather than meet the need for more infrastructure.
    I forgot to mention that on the other hand freeways practically build themselves
    >> info@usynligthegn.com Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)07:31 No.152445
    info@usynligthegn.com
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)12:28 No.152458
    >>151895
    Long Island Fail Road steals 4 hours of my life every day that I go into work. To call the LIRR a HSR is insulting.

    But to be fair thats mostly because of the 100 year old tracks it runs on through jamaica which the incompetent fucks at the MTA still haven't managed to upgrade.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)17:08 No.152477
    >$40 a passenger for Amtrak and $500 to $700 per automobile out there through the highways.

    keep telling yourself those numbers mean anything, while neglecting where it is coming from.
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)17:11 No.152478
    http://www.projektassassin.pl/15824.html
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)22:44 No.152521
    >>152477
    >herp derp I dont like it its biased
    Did you go to the Rupert Murdoch School of Journalism?
    the President of Amtrak must surely be uninformed about his funding and infrastructure, or worse yet part of a vast conspiracy to destroy the cost-effective energy-efficient freedom-maximizing freeways
    >> Anonymous 02/09/10(Tue)23:17 No.152525
    >>152458

    the LIRR is under pretty heavy construction at the moment, the atlantic ave viaduct was actually condemned so track speeds are going to be slow until they replace it. they're under legal pressure to get it done and not defer it any more though.
    >> Anonymous 02/10/10(Wed)01:35 No.152546
    >>152525
    aren't they building another level under Grand Central Station for it?



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