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  • File: 1335514502.jpg-(19 KB, 306x401, Thomas Malthus.jpg)
    19 KB Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:15 No.2596119  
    Can any scientifically minded individuals refute Malthus? As far as I can tell social Darwinianism is the inevitable conclusion of our understanding that humanity is just another species of animal. Then why don't we start developing social policies based on eugenics and actively evolve our species into a more streamlined, stronger one? It seems to make a lot of sense to me. Also I doubt the white race is superior. I think the japs probably got us beat. Anyway I say its time we discontinue this touchy-feely crap about how everyone should be treated equally and start depopulating this globe that has been saddled with the copulation of idiots unfit for survival. People should just learn to not take it personally, those are the facts and the laws of nature precede everything.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:17 No.2596122
    Shut up idiot, look around you, eugenic systems are well established, it's just that they are balanced within a moderate liberty.

    Stop trying to pontificate and think more.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:19 No.2596125
    Why do you have a stake in future generations you won't live to see?

    What defines superiority? Superiority in arbitrary abilities or attributes? Will a society of people who are 2.4% better at spatial analysis inevitably be 2.4% more ubermenschy?

    What if an ethnic milieu is more beneficial to cultural genesis than a physically/mentally "superior" base population? Particularly if that population is homogenous? What about innumerable similar factors and variables you are unknowingly altering by striving for better muscle mass for your lineal descendants 7,000 years down the line?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:22 No.2596133
    >>2596122
    why reconcile eugenics with moderate liberty? Is moderate liberty part of Darwinian selection? I must've missed that memo. I'm looking around me and right now I see fuckwits claiming they have "aspergers" collecting government checks on my dime. And I can tell you I don't like it. Also I'm pretty sure if social Darwinism were activated to the fullest extent I would hardly outlast it.

    I'mokaywiththis.jpg
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:25 No.2596141
    >>2596125
    At the very least we could get rid of welfare programs. Secondly we don't hook people imminently close to death up to life-support systems. Thirdly we kill off people with obvious genetic disorders like down-syndrome.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:30 No.2596149
    >>2596133
    Just like with most extreme forms of governance or ideology, there are more ways for it to go wrong, than there are for it to go "as planned".

    Nothing goes as planned. If there is a potential for extreme abuse, then there will be extreme abuse: Murphy's law!

    A system based purely on social darwinism would be extremely difficult to execute. Perhaps we aren't ready for it, and we are slowly but surely working our way up to it, like I said, with moderate liberty mixed in with a little freedom trampling eugenics.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:42 No.2596174
    >>2596149
    How is eliminating people with genetic disorders, removing the social safety-net and allowing people to die of natural causes not in keeping with social Darwinism? Why shouldn't there be "extreme abuse"?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:44 No.2596180
    >>2596174
    Listen bronco, people can now do tests during the early pregnancy stages by removing fluid from the placenta, to see whether or not the baby will have genetic defects. If the test proves positive for down syndrome, you can abort if you want to.

    People have been doing it for years now.

    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)04:45 No.2596181
    Peter Kropotkin disproved the idea that poverty is an inevitability in Fields, Factories and Workshops; Kropotkin also proved that cooperation was more important than competition in the evolutionary process in Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution. I would recommend reading both.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)04:51 No.2596186
    Eugenics is the way forward. It is currently being used alot they just don't call it that anymore due to Nazi's using it. I.e., guilt by association fallacy. For a good introduction read Wikipedia and read Richard Lynn's Eugenics: A resassessment (2001).

    And yes, the east asians (japanese included) are smarter than whites (if that's what u want to measure only), but the (Ashkenazi) jews are even smarter. No surprise that jews are overrepresented in everything requiring high intelligence (and so are east asians). For a decent review of the average IQs of the world's populations see Richard Lynn's Race differences in intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis (2006).

    If u have more questions, feel free to ask me.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)04:53 No.2596190
    >>2596141
    Killing them off is a bad idea. It is better just to let people choose with advanced technology. Since parents want beautiful, smart, healthy children, the problem is fixable without state intervention.

    I very much dislike state intervention. I don't trust the politicians with anything else, why wud i trust them with our genes? No thanks. Liberal eugenics is the way forward.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)04:57 No.2596199
    >>2596180
    Yes, this is a eugenical practice, whether or not they label it as such. In Denmark, 99% of parents whose foetus is identified as having Down's abort it. In a few decades, they will probably be very close to extinguished. Their average lifespan is also shorter, so this helps. In general, this is a good idea as it lessons the burden on both the parents and society at large.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)05:05 No.2596217
    >>2596199
    So there you go, eugenics is a prevalent things in society that is slowly and moderately being implemented.

    You just want to kick it up into overdrive, which will most likely fuck everything up.

    Remember, slow and steady. Besides, in term of advancement, in the last 50 years we have advanced more technologically than the couple of millions of years. We might need to put on the breaks, our technology is too sophisticated for us monkeys, we need to allow things to ferment for a while.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)06:13 No.2596279
    >>2596217
    There is good reason to do more of it. Not doing it results in dysgenics becus natural selection is more or less out of order. We need to do it.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)06:17 No.2596284
    ITT, I learned that being poor is a genetic flaw.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)06:57 No.2596308
    >>2596284
    Generally, yes. Altho it is misleading to speak about it that way. Intelligence is determined by many genes, not just one. Otherwise, there wud also be two different levels of intelligence (unless epigenetics or someting). This is clearly not the case.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)06:57 No.2596309
    hahaha yeah that will work nicely.

    >stupid people are the majority
    >you're the man at the top and you make stupid people unhappy because they're inferior

    Oh boy I sure can't see where this is going.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)06:58 No.2596310
    >>2596284
    I forgot to add, but also see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    And: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)07:02 No.2596312
    Just so you know, evolution is not a race for intelligence.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)07:16 No.2596322
    >>2596133
    gotta love this. one minute its everything is understood in relation to darwinism. the next its modern liberty doesnt fall within darwinism.

    there s only a problem if you have some hig ambition for society. thats fruitless. all we can ever do is work with what we've got
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)07:48 No.2596345
    Dude, we couldn't even get dog eugenics right. For every positive thing we implemented we also created all sorts of inborn maladies and predispositions. I wouldn't ever want us to do that to people.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)07:57 No.2596347
    >>2596345
    We don't generally breed dogs for good genes as in, for intelligence, good health, and good morals. We breed dogs for visuals.

    If we don't do eugenics (and we do, but we shud do more), then dysgenic effects will make the gene pool even worse. Gene pools slowly deteriorate without selection pressure to weed out the bad genes (mutations that occur all the time).
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)07:58 No.2596348
    >>2596345
    That was dysgenics.

    >oh look what a cute little dog lets make it even cuter and smaller and smaller and don't give a fuck about the consequences

    Eugenicists probably wouldn't go around breeding caricatural deformed mongoloids incapable of functioning. Dogs are never bred for their own vitality and quality of life, as far as I know.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:00 No.2596353
    >>2596347

    >We don't generally breed dogs for good genes as in, for intelligence, good health, and good morals.

    What? Most of our dog breeds were made out of a desire for performance. Chasing, running, longevity, strength, hunting (we even named some after the things we wanted them to do). That sort of thing.

    Yes, aesthetic dog breeds are prevalent as well, but we have bred dogs for certain physical traits, particularly in our past.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)08:00 No.2596354
    >>2596348
    Lynn (2001) gives a good idea of what we might breed for. There are already many (thousand? probably) known genes for diseases. The first thing to do is breed for getting rid of them. This can generally happen becus usually only one of the parents have the particular allele that is harmful.

    This will also improve society since it costs money to treat diseases and also improve the life of people. We know from positive psychology that health is a good predictor of happiness ("subjective well-being").
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:01 No.2596355
    >>2596348

    Again, I'm not referring to aesthetic breeds of toy poodle.

    >Eugenicists probably wouldn't go around breeding caricatural deformed mongoloids incapable of functioning

    Also yes, they totally would. We're halfway there with plastic surgery already.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)08:02 No.2596357
    >>2596353
    That's not eugenics, that's regular artificial selection for desired traits. Well, in a broad sense, eugenics (meaning "good genes") is the breeding for the genes one wants, but generally, what one wants to breed for is intelligence, good health and good morals.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:03 No.2596359
    >>2596357

    >That's not eugenics, that's regular artificial selection for desired traits. Well, in a broad sense, eugenics (meaning "good genes") is the breeding for the genes one wants

    >That's not eugenics, it's just eugenics

    Moving the goal posts, and you're not even being subtle about it.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:12 No.2596364
         File: 1335528723.jpg-(22 KB, 426x375, belgianblue3.jpg)
    22 KB
    While I get a massive boner from the sheer glory eugenics could bring to society if practiced without holding back, I think we are doing an okay job now. We still live in a society with egalitarian humanistic values, so we kind of have to work around that. Just like the people in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance had to work with or around Christianity when doing what they wanted. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it's a challenge that will only prove to make us more cunning.

    Our world as it is seems to be a pretty good testing ground. There are so many lures and traps to fall in. Get hooked on drugs? You fail. Get hooked on junkfood? You fail. Get overly mental and philosophical and weak with a reluctance to breed? You fail.

    I think we should focus on how to bring forth better beings within the system than that we should focus on changing the system as a whole. Take care of your own genes and the rest takes care of itself.

    The funny part about social darwinism is that the people preaching it often aren't very good at it. We risk falling in the trap of making social darwinism too much based on idealism and not enough on the reality of selection in the world. Do you know who has an intuitive grasp of Darwinism? Kony.

    >Thought to have 88 wives as of 2007
    >Thought to have 42 children as of 2006
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:13 No.2596366
         File: 1335528802.jpg-(9 KB, 201x251, 1332438399857.jpg)
    9 KB
    >>2596359
    >moral
    >genetics

    What kind of retard are you ?
    Pic related you and your strong genes
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:14 No.2596367
    http://alife.co.uk/essays/nietzscheanism/

    This nigga interesting.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:23 No.2596375
    >>2596366

    I wasn't even going to touch that one. Seemed like a rabbit hole not worth jumping down.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)08:26 No.2596377
    >>2596359
    >Moving the goal posts, and you're not even being subtle about it.

    I was pretty clear. It is not what is typically done in eugenics, but if one broadens the concept, it is possible to include that.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)08:28 No.2596380
    >>2596366
    U shud avoid ad hominems and learn to discuss properly.

    Yes, moral temperaments are genetic to some extent. It might be a good idea to breed for less 'psychopaths' etc.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:29 No.2596381
    >>2596377

    Yes, you were pretty clear about eugenics only meaning what you want it to mean.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:30 No.2596383
    >>2596380

    Psychopaths are amoral, not immoral.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:30 No.2596384
    >>2596366
    He obviously meant good morals as in people who are capable of functioning in society. Certain genetics traits are important for this. A tendency to violence, criminality, alcoholism, etc.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)08:33 No.2596386
    >>2596384
    Yes, these things are heritable to some degree. Generally, research is generally lacking in this department, so one wud need to do that before trying to select for good genes.

    However, a related topic is mental health. Most of these are heritable to some degree. We can soon figure out which genes result in these diseases. Schizophrenia, for instance, is very costly to society. Mental diseases also hit women more than men, so one can think of this as a kind of good feminism. :P
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)08:39 No.2596391
    >>2596386
    Use proper spelling and lose the smileys if you don't want to be subjected to ad hominems. Just some friendly advice.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)09:36 No.2596455
    >>2596391
    No thanks. Standard english spellings are horrible.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)09:41 No.2596461
    >>2596455
    So are yours.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)09:52 No.2596471
    >>2596461
    No, all those that i have used ITT are superior to their standard english counterparts. But generally, those of New Spelling are the best.
    http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=2676
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)09:56 No.2596479
    >>2596471
    Define best. It took me slightly longer to figure out what you were saying, as with everyone else in the thread. This inefficiency makes them seem worse to me. Pandering to non-english speakers just because "we lingua franca now" is bullshit.
    >> Filosofer scientist linguist 04/27/12(Fri)10:07 No.2596494
    >>2596479
    Perhaps. But u are biased as u are used to the current system. Spend a bit of time learning others systems and one can read them fluently.

    Also, a study has shown that one reads badly spelled words slower, so actually, a reform of the orthografy will speed up reading on the long term.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)11:15 No.2596538
    >>2596386
    So, let's say, John Nash, who's schizophrenic, if we had eugenics, we'd have killed him, and we'd be without game theory, or Feymann, who used drugs his entire life, or a lot of scientists, etc etc


    Being born with a genetic disorder isn't a death sentence, it won't determine were you will live, how much you'll earn, it may be harder for you, but it won't shut you down totally.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)11:22 No.2596542
    >>2596312
    ...Now it is.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)11:49 No.2596554
    You first.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)12:58 No.2596611
         File: 1335545887.jpg-(10 KB, 201x300, rodserling.jpg)
    10 KB
    Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of man, that state is obsolete.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)13:02 No.2596622
    >>2596119
    >>2596122
    so much same person.

    Absolute pursuit of eugenics is problematic because it threatens to overspecialize and make us ripe for replacement
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)14:13 No.2596753
    >>2596622
    any "eugenics" is just politics.

    there is no "objectively better" standard.
    unless you got some sauce on universal consensus there.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)14:53 No.2596832
         File: 1335552807.jpg-(278 KB, 432x432, transhuman.jpg)
    278 KB
    >>2596753
    His point still stands. Any sort of precise singular standard decreases variety and therefore makes humanity as a whole less capable of dealing with a wide variety of circumstances.

    That said, there are of course things that we could do without as a species than one would be very hard pressed to find positive uses for. Schizofrenia may accompagny genius, but hereditary heart diseases or HIV doesn't really help anyone.

    I'd say that we refrain from authoritarian, forced negative eugenics and focus on voluntarily forms. Let people choose if they want to strive for genetical improvement. If you don't want to participate in this that is fine too. In this way, eugenics will soon enough become widespread anyway since it becomes sort of an arms race. This is how it has worked with many things. There are conservatives, primitivists, early adapters and those that hold the middle. If you don't want to artificially increase the life of your offspring, you may very well soon change your mind when you see other peoples children living significantly better lives.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)14:56 No.2596836
         File: 1335552995.png-(4 KB, 184x211, reactionman_smile.png)
    4 KB
    >>2596753
    >using lack of absolutely better standard in an abstract sense to refute absolutely better standard in concrete sense
    >this is what you actually believe
    Evolution is the process of phasing out structures unfitted to the environment. If what you said were true it would not happen. If we look at this tendency (rationalization) in abstract and in a much larger context, it is towards the creation of a unified structure where there is absolutely no friction. If we consider progress towards this state as "superior" there is indeed an objectively better standard. What part of the machine we should be is irrelevant, what is important is that there is indeed a "superior" structure
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)15:11 No.2596870
    >>2596836
    How would you define this sort of smooth operation? Does it imply docility, a minimum of entropy, or something else perhaps?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)15:47 No.2596952
    >>2596870
    minimum of friction between parts on a universal scale. Actually, I have some ideas about entropy being universal order finding expression that I have yet to prove but anyways.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:22 No.2597044
         File: 1335558132.jpg-(37 KB, 460x568, heraclitus.jpg)
    37 KB
    So life gravitates towards an absence of struggle?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:36 No.2597084
         File: 1335558962.jpg-(157 KB, 742x811, Nietzsche187a.jpg)
    157 KB
    >>2596122

    Wait, so why is it that geniuses die virgins then?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:38 No.2597095
    >>2597084

    Funny you should use him as your image.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:55 No.2597151
         File: 1335560140.jpg-(28 KB, 577x435, rape.jpg)
    28 KB
    >>2597084
    Geniuses aren't all that important, that's romanticism for a large part. Sure, the guy who came up with penicillin did a huge thing for humanity as a whole, but evolution has nothing to do with species but with genes. If you want to help evolution, you should do the utmost for you and your offspring. Let the rest take care of themselves.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:56 No.2597154
    >>2597084
    They place the spreading of memes above that of genes. Which makes for a rather striking example of mind over matter.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:58 No.2597159
    >>2597044
    Well, it gravitates towards death, so yes.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)16:58 No.2597160
    >>2597151

    That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, what are you; a country bumpkin?
    >> bvalltu !mPczjqR4J6 04/27/12(Fri)16:59 No.2597163
    >>2597084
    I hope this isn't implying that Herr Nietzsche died a virgin
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:04 No.2597172
    >>2597163

    No, he probably had sex with some prostitutes in the 1870s. But he sure as hell didn't pass on any of his ubermensch genes. As a matter of fact many brilliant men died without heirs, I could go on to name them myself if necessary.
    People essentially spread genes within their own class, which is in turn determined by capital, which is largely determined by luck and often accumalted through nefarious means dictated by a Draconian free market.
    So much for social Darwinism I guess.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:17 No.2597207
    Are there seriously people on /lit/ that think eugenics isn't both a historical and a scientific failure?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:20 No.2597216
    >>2597207

    We're actually not smart, it's the great secret of 4chan!
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:23 No.2597228
    Humanity is the only animal that does not live and die by its genes. Genes are not the answer, only society is.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:35 No.2597263
    >Social Darwinism
    >Doesn't actually draw from true empirical data, and thus doesn't qualify as science
    >Greatly perverts the idea of Darwinism, that those best suited to the environment survive into the survival of the "fittest."
    >Will always be inappropriately applied, as the culture enforcing it will just define "fit," as their own culture (see imperialism, specific example: the colonization of south east Asia, and ruining the 90% literacy rate produced by the Sangha).
    >Based on the paradoxical idea that despite having separated ourselves from nature, we are still under its thumb.

    >Eugeneics
    >Implications that diversity should be stamped out in favor of specialization/purposely reducing our ability to adapt
    >Ignores that we are still hostage to nature's whims, and can't make our own decisions about what best suits the environment, as it often changes.
    >Mucking around in extremely intricate systems that we don't truly know how they work yet, and what latent effects our actions may cause

    Hurf dur derp, people trying to apply the the soft sciences without any empirical data, back up, or testing. Social Darwinism has already been proven to be inherently prejudiced against culture's other than its own (Just look at the fucking context it was created in: Ultra nationalist Europe-they were using it against each other for christ' sake), and would probably take us right back to Pre-world war one levels of nationalism. Eugenics, a concept based off of Social Darwinism is inherently wrong in concept, and blatalntly wrong, becasue the reduction of the ability to adapt (diversity) is the greatest weakness a species can have.
    I hate all of you for giving the soft sciences the bad names that they get.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:37 No.2597270
    I don't understand why nobody here doesn't want to rebel against humanity's animalistic nature and rise above nature in general.
    bunch of sadistic hippies i guess
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:38 No.2597280
    everything simply is.
    there is no better or worse, no better or worse genes.
    we humans just say this is better or worse but these things don't exist.

    u r free wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:45 No.2597315
    >>2597207
    Jew/Leftist/Lab project gone wrong detected?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:47 No.2597321
    >Wanting to get rid of the white race

    Yeah, fuck you.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:50 No.2597330
    what the fuck is with the fetish for evolutionary topics and genes on this chan

    is this some sort of defence mechanism for being virgins?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:51 No.2597336
    >>2597321

    Please, your women are going to mix with the blacks and your men with the asians. This is of course due to the IQ gap between genders.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:52 No.2597338
    >>2597321
    I'm white and I've come to accept the inevitable genocide of the white race. I've had my time of mourning and time of rebellion. As long as we mix with either Japanese or secular Middle Easterners it shouldn't be as bad. Personally, I'd still prefer a white girl and find white women more appealing than other races. BUT GODDAMMIT WHY ARE WHITES MIXING WITH FUCKING MONKEYS?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:54 No.2597341
    >>2597263
    >implying nationalism is a bad thing
    >implying globalism is a virtue
    >2012
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)17:56 No.2597347
    >>2597338
    Samefag here. I accept all Europeans and easterners as equals but I cannot, can not, accept any branch of african or aboriginal (including most of Latin America) as my equal, for fuck's sake.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:14 No.2597410
    >>2597341
    >Has no historical perspective as tall
    Nationalism, at least liberal nationalism, in itself isn't bad, indeed it brought about the modern world, built powerful states where citizens matter, and more greatly defined/created cultures to a peak, however within the past it has certainly been taken to far. Not to mention you're likely confusing liberal and romantic nationalism. To make it simple, liberal nationalism is what was preached during the French and American revolutions, citizen and constitution stuff; Romantic nationalism, or German nationalism was a reactionary movement to the so called French nationalism, that was about how much better one's culture was than the one's next door (such as German culture vs. French), I think its easy to see where this taken. When Romantic nationalism was taken to the extreme the European powers went nuts, setting the stage for WWI, and the rape of cultures that had many advantages over European culture, such as the Sangha literacy mentioned earlier.

    I will give you one supreme and objective reason why globalism and cultural diversity is indeed a virtue--It gives us case studies. If every culture was the same we'd have no/decreased perspective and insight to our own culture, as there would be no foil, and to lose sight of one's own culture is horrendous. Secondly, those other cultures serve as testing grounds, just as we do to them; we can look at those cultures and learn from them about things that we may want to apply or avoid applying to our own culture. Diversity of cultures is supremely important as it allows us to define what our culture is. A mono-culture would be as absolutely horrid in the human sphere as it is the agricultural sphere. Also I will not say we should celebrate diversity, but rather tolerate it as necessary, similar to the Dutch attitude of 1500/1600s.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:18 No.2597420
    I've not read through this thread so I apologize if this is already in it; however as a science journalist I can safely state the following

    1. Science and (good) scientists distances itself from any kind of policy or agenda making, such as "social darwinism". Social darwinism and similar policies are non-existent in scientific research and considered totally irrelevant to the actual science. Instead it's just a layman (I.E. lacks education in any related field) interpretation of a very basic understanding of biologic evolution (evolutionary theory does not only relate to biology anymore).

    2. Evolutionary theory have developed enormously since Darwin, the difference is as large as modern computers and punch cards from world war II. So any discussion about evolutionary biology in the context of making policy pre DNA is completely useless.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:22 No.2597439
    >>2597420
    >1. Science and (good) scientists distances itself from any kind of policy or agenda making,

    this shit is why we have creationists getting louder in the media and why global warming is still considered not happening by most people
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:29 No.2597462
    Superiority is abstract, retard.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:37 No.2597488
    >>2597439
    I know what you mean, however; 2 things
    Good scientists can indeed be outspoken about what they think are good policies for society (and many are, like Alan Sokal and Michael Shermer), however when they do that they leave the realm of science.

    Secondly it's it's rather hopeless to "debate" stuff like that because it's impossible for the average layperson to tell good science from bad science. And also debate is not part of the scientific method, therefore trying to settle scientific matters in the media is will be a pointless exercise even if the "right" side wins.

    The solution is probably to make sure decisions like about global warming or what children are taught in biology class is NOT a democratic decision
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:42 No.2597501
         File: 1335566523.jpg-(27 KB, 250x331, 1316633754960.jpg)
    27 KB
    >>2597420
    >Science and (good) scientists distances itself from any kind of policy or agenda making

    This is what scientists would like to believe, but in fact it´s deeply problematic.

    Consider the following: If science tells us truths about the world (including nature and ourselves), surely it is rational to guide ourselves by these truths? By the way of implication, science does make a significant political claim: to decide what is good and what is bad policy from its rational high ground.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:50 No.2597518
    >>2597501
    Except that's realm of the social sciences, the field of study that is about applying our knowledge (that's not entirely empirical) and thinking into analyzing something wholly different from that of the hard sciences (which are more about the objective truths of the world). Its like asking a doctor of mathematics to discover a new organic chemical reaction mechanism, its just two different fields of studies.

    Of course I personally believe that everyone should be forced to be knowledgeable in at least one social science and one hard science, but that's not the world.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)18:56 No.2597529
    >>2596141

    I don't think you understand down syndrome. How would killing off a person who can't reproduce affect your eugenics system, sure females with down syndrome can generally reproduce but it's not likely whatsoever and wouldn't pollute a gene pool in the slightest.

    I've been lurking on this board for thirty minutes now, you're all idiots that like to use big words. I figured that the literature board might not have been shat up like /g/ but I suppose every board on this site is shit now, or maybe this board always was shit.

    Goodbye.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:01 No.2597540
    >>2597501
    I can tell that you are not an academic: let me explain

    Science is not concerned with "truths": that is for philosophy and linguists. Neither is it concerned with good or bad or any other normative or moral issue. there are no truths in science, there are no proofs either (except in math).

    Science deals with explaining how stuff works and what methods are effective.
    In economics it is accepted through extensive empirical studies and models that heavy trade barriers will reduce economic growth in the long run. And that's it, that's where science ends. Science is not concerned with if you SHOULD remove or leave trade barriers, it simply states what effect it will have.

    Now if you're a politician and one of your goals is to increase the material standards of living for your citizens in the long run; an economist will tell you that given your political goal, removing trade barriers will is a good reform for you to make. And if said economist thinks improving material standards is a worthwhile goal he might well advocate this on his own, but then he's doing it outside of science.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:14 No.2597572
    >>2597518
    Think biology or ecology.

    >>2597540
    >Science deals with explaining how stuff works
    This is what I meant by"truths", I admit stretching the term a little. But I think you underestimate the "rational high ground" I mentioned; there is no politician that would openly say "science says this but I don´t give a fuck, I´ll do it the wrong way".

    Global warming deniers are not a valid counterexample. They claim to have scientific knowledge that the planet is in fact not getting warmer, and that it is the other side that doesn´t do proper science. At best they are framing it as a legitimate scientific controversy. Even those who absolutely ignore the scientific consensus shield themselves by the authority of science, and it should be emphasized that this authority is valid also in the domain of democratic politics.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:17 No.2597582
    Science is about money, and that's it.

    /thread
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:22 No.2597599
    >>2597572
    On second thought, the issue of global warming is itself a good example of the scientific claims on policy. It is discovered that the planet is getting warmer due to human influence, and if the trend continues, in x years there will be dire consequences for all. And no politician in their right mind can afford to say "after us the deluge", especially when it is literal deluge he is speaking of.

    This was just a really obvious case, but the principle holds even in the less significant cases. Given the rational authority science has, its findings must be heeded by all who want to appear reasonable themselves.
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:39 No.2597644
    >>2597572

    for reference I am only
    >>2597420
    >>2597488
    and
    >>2597540

    "Truths" is still more than just a stretch. For example, Newtonian mechanics are known to be wrong and Isaac newton was completely wrong about how and why they are the way he described them. But newtonian mechanics are still used because they are still accurate enough for low speed low gravity low time circumstances.

    Again the words you use shows that you (like most people, so it's not an insult) only have a layman's outside view of the scientific process. "Scientific knowledge" does not exist. And "the planet is not getting warmer" is what's known as a null-hypothesis, which is something you reject or don't care about at all. Otherwise you would have to do extensive research to state that "pigs can't fly"

    What third parties do with the information science provides in on their behalf. and of course they should take input from science otherwise it would be no point in doing science. Like an author writing books but just keeping them to himself. But again, all this is outside the realm of science. If you really insist I would recomend you taking "scientific method/theory" classes at university to gain a better understanding
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)19:50 No.2597678
    >>2597644
    >Newtonian mechanics are known to be wrong
    Of course. Any kind of final truth is by definition unavailable to (modern) science, precisely due to its progressive character. But nevertheless you have some lower-order explanatory "truths" by which we explain the world (and thus shape our understanding of it) until we get something better. And it is these "truths" that are so influential in politics; after all, what better do we have?

    I took a class on philosophy of science last year, taught by some nice people who sincerely believe in science and its emancipatory potential. I think I see your point (although not completely), but by the same token I think you underestimate just how much influence science has on politics. Or, do you have another explanation for e.g. the rise of the Green movement and its pet issues such as pesticides, chemical additives in food, or global warming (and green energy)?

    Btw. i see the fact that scientific explanations are ultimately just fictions, yet they can produce so much useful applications, as a great paradox of science. Could you recommend me anything dealing with this issue in particular?
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)20:05 No.2597739
    >>2597678
    I don't know if "Axiom" is the word you're looking for instead of truths?

    In any case, I sure hope I'm underestimating "how much influence science has on politics" because i think it should be much larger. All I'm saying is that It's not part of science to "promote" itself or suggest what others do with it. It's sort of a tool box in that sense.

    I wouldn't call scientific explanations "just fictions" but i know what you mean. I would definitely not say that this is a "great paradox of science". As for recommendations the impression I'm getting is that you need a solid foundation before moving on to more advanced questions and how science interacts with other stuff. As a quick tip: Read books by Michael Schemer, maybe James Randi too and watch this youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/C0nc0rdance. Focus not on the specific subjects he handles, but HOW he handles them
    That would just be the start but a good one
    >> Anonymous 04/27/12(Fri)20:20 No.2597791
    >>2597739
    No, not axioms. How would you call the following factoid: "All elements are composed of protons, neutrons and electrons"?

    >i think it should be much larger
    How do you mean this? In >>2597540 you said that "Science is not concerned with if you SHOULD remove or leave trade barriers".

    Anyway, by "the influence science has on politics" I did not mean just the influence on specific talking points. I was pointing more to the prestige and influence science as an institution has and the prominence and funding it is awarded. To let loose for a moment: it is my impression that it doesn´t really matter what science is telling us, but the very fact that it is science that is telling us something is sufficient to take it for granted. This I find rather discomforting.

    Also, thanks for the tips.



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