GenderTerror.comfound this yesterdayI just wanted to know /lgbt/'s thoughts about it
>>1081110 (OP)http://genderterror.com/2013/08/03/attention-this-is-not-a-trend>Gender is extremely fluid and can change.Is this a ruse?
>>1081356that article is full of gems>I am a non-binary trans male who still dresses effeminate>I still wear and prefer stereotypical female clothing, heels, retain my feminine mannerisms, etctranstender detected
Gender is fluid for certain individuals, sure. I haven't visited the website and therefore can't comment on the argument, but fluidity is not something all fully-grown individuals exhibit.
>These people project their own personal narratives onto others and hold them to specific bars that if they do not meet (or even excel past), they cannot claim a particular identity. Now, I am not talking about things such as straight men proclaiming they are lesbians. So waitIt's not okay to tell people they're not trans enoughBut it's okay to tell men they're not lesbiansI mean what if my identity is just a trans woman with hairy legs and a dick and a deep voice? He's policing my identity as a non-binary trans woman lesbian!
Why do they put and asterisk after trans, every time?
>>1081356But that statement is true.>>1081389This one has entered ruse area, though. If it's true for that person then it's no invalid, though.
I could see how it might suck to have to deal with that attitude. But I see a lot more of "too trans" from some of these people. You're too normal, ugh, you must love oppressing people. Why would you get all of those surgeries, hormones, hair removal voice training etc. just to conform to gender stereotypes, b/c that must be what you're doing. You have binary privilege. This is really about you victimizing everyone else. Some people really do think like this, and really do want to lay claim to being trans while pushing out the people who actually need that label. They're easy enough to avoid, but that is a thing.
>>1081765>>1081421I'll take 20 on people who don't know what gender isGender isn't what you want to present asGender is what your brain thinks your body isIt cannot change
>>1082082That's entirely wrong and oversimplified. You can ask any sane mtf what their body is and they know it's male. Gender is not what you think your body is at all.
>>1082102I said what your BRAIN thinks your body is- as in, your internal blueprint. Not what you conciously think of yourself, what you subconciously do
>>1082121It could be argued that you and your thoughts are your brain. Gender is more an expression of the connotations of sex than it is anything else, and it's entirely fluid.
>>1082144>Gender is more an expression of the connotations of sex than it is anything elsePlease elaborate
>>1082082gender is social. some societies have nonbinary gender identities. you seem to be describing brain sec.
>>1082144Do you understand GID at all? This is literally why transsexuals exist. Their gender identity is not congruent with their body. If gender was fluid, trannies could just flow over to having their gender match their sex.
>>1082216>gender is socialIf it was a social construct then there wouldn't be trans people
>>1082144No, that's wrong>>1082216That's even more wrong
>>1082233>>1082235you both need to elaborate when making statements which are not self-evident.
>>1082242Gender is not a social construct. Gender ROLES are, yes. Gender is not. Your gender is how your brain thinks your body should be, sex is how your chromosomes are, and gender presentation is how you presentPlease learn your shit
>>1082250you are the first person i've seen describe it this way and you're directly contradicting people who would be considered experts in the field.
>>1082263No I'm notAsk MTFG if you don't believe meFeminists are the only ones that go "durr gender is a social construct"
>>1082283having gender dysphoria is not a legitimate authority in this case. we're discussing terminology and you're obfuscating the meaning of gender; you're using one correct definition, a synonym for sex, then insisting that another correct definition, gender as a social role, a social performance, and a social structure, is not. and i'm not even sure why, except that it might serve to enforce the binary and lack of fluidity that was implied in >>1082082 but was certainly not demonstrated.
>>1082308i want to see you wear the pretty clothes you always post.
>>1082317this is hardly the thread for it, plus that's a ghost. not that i don't dress like it. it's just not clothing.
>>1082308Gender now means so many things that we're each defining it as something different. When I say gender, unadorned with any qualifying word, I mean gender identity, as I think that's the core meaning of the word. Gender identity is not fluid. It is set during fetal development. It is also not socially constructed. Gender roles and gender expression/presentation can be fluid, and are partly socially constructed.
>>1082308Gender identity is not fluidIt is how your mind sees your bodyThat is what I was getting at and no, there's only two valid definitions of gender, and only a single one that's valid in the context of transgender discussion
>>1082352just a passing comment, and I didn't mean that particular picture, just a general comment.
>>1082386fluidity and social construction of gender are self evident given a plethora of historical and extant examples of non-binary identities which were not assumed at birth. we can literally produce fluid individuals and culturally distinct genders, we have the spades to call spades, so i'm not sure why you've developed this line of reasoning.
>>1082399i'm too lazy to set up decent self portraits so there isn't much material available.
>>1082403>implying modern "gender fluids" are anything more than attention seeking teenagers or transsexuals who are scared of transitioning>implying "third gender" hijras, two-spirits and the like are anything but transsexuals who adopted non-standard gender presentations due to the inexistence of medical transition options like HRTany "gender fluidity" that exists is in gender presentation and roles. The identity does not change.
Itt: everyone has opinions, everyone else is wrong
>>1082424this is... ethnocentric. i'll use that word instead of unemphatic.
>>1082432and what was ethnocentric about it? Is acknowledging the lack of modern medicine in the past now considered ethnocentrism?
>>1082460applying the gender structure of our society to other societies. it's ethnocentric. you don't know that transgenderism as you understand it would be relevant to those people.you also don't know that there aren't legitimately fluid people. i'm willing to accept that there are, given that there are people who identify that way. the same way that people identifying as punks or as methodists is enough for me to accept that these are things which exist. that's not ethnocentric though. it's just you being kind of petty.
>>1082472>applying neurology to other societies is ethnocentricthis is starting to sound like tumblr in here.
>>1082491please, cite the neurology publications which would buttress your argument.
>>1082506http://www.mediafire.com/view/?brq4uevp3r8mwk4http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.htmlhttp://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.abstracthere's a few, it's really just the standard stuff used to prove transsexuals aren't full of shit.
>>1082538i specifically want to see the articles which would suggest that say, indian hijras are trans as medical science would understand it.
>>1082547I don't know of any, but I'll take a look. In the meantime, I will pose a couple questions. Where would the scientific basis for a third gender come from? As mentioned in the first paper I linked, gender Identity can either be established as male by testosterone, or as female by estrogen. Where does a third gender come into that?Secondly, since gender identity is not socially constructed (as addressed by those papers), why would India have a gender identity that does not exist in any other human population? The only explanation is social construction, which means it must be a matter of gender roles and presentation, not identity.
>>1082569you're doing it again. you're applying schema that was developed to explain phenomena in our culture to another culture.http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/thorp.aspthis is about the problem of calling ancient greeks "gay", but you can slice out the irrelevant terminology and put in third genders. as such, your questions are a bit non sequitur, and somewhat nonsensical because you are once again insisting on an incorrect dichotomy between gender, identity, and sex!
>>1082585>chema that was developed to explain phenomena in our culture to another culture.what are you talking about? I spoke only of scientific concepts. I did not involve any cultural assumptions in those question.
>>1082600your sources do not invalidate fluid or nonbinary identities; they fail to account for them at all and so they are about as useful in deciphering nonbinary identities as a study on the mineral composition of rocks in death valley. the rest of this discussion has been a disagreement on the meaning of gender and i'm fairly certain that it's only taking place because you get to quote-unquote win the argument if you insist that there are only two genders and nonbinary permutations are only a matter of expression or role.
>>1082608what all those sources essentially said was that gender identity is established during fetal development by the brain's hormone exposure. They then say that this identity can NOT be altered in adulthood. That invalidates fluid gender identities. It is true that they don't mention third genders. They don't need to. We can apply the knowledge gained from the studies and apply it ourselves with a little critical thinking. Since (as my sources show) gender identity is biological and NOT cultural, we would expect any non-binary gender identities to show up in every culture. They do not. Therefore, no other conclusion can be drawn other than that these "third genders" are a social construct. Since the only parts of gender that are socially constructed are roles and presentation, that's obviously all there is to these third genders. There is no third gender identity.
>>1082657your response to an accusation of fallacy is to embrace it. i guess i appreciate the bravado but my time actually is finite.
>>1082608gender=sexbut while sex refers simply or mostly to physical features, gender refers to linguistics, social and cultural extensions of sex. You would know if you weren't a dumb american. No, seriously, the concept of "gender" is basically a mistake of the english language.
>>1082222>implying GID is still a thing
>>1082250>implying sex and chromosomal sex are the same thing
From the Author's facebook. A lot more "off the cuff" style comments and thoughts. And the occasional flame war. For /lgbt/'s consideration
jesus christ i hate queerthose degenerates are more of a threat to the well being of lgbt folks than skinheads
>you don't have to like, spew pseudo-intellectual garbage everywhere for people to think you're smart, if people have a strong opinion, they don't NEED "conceptual exploration", they know what they're talking about. they don't need people to step in and be like "HEY MAN MAYBE URER WRNG!!!"....what? Is this Quinn dude having a laugh? Just because someone feels strong enough about something doesn't mean they are excused from simple debate.
>>1083071So which of Lucien's supposed friends are you? Maybe you should get the intestinal fortitude to tell him how you really feel instead of cattily posting screengrabs for people to tear apart.
>>1083207Hi! Different 'friend' of Lucian's here. I currently have him blocked on deleted on Facebook. Hes has started a campaign on there to be the most special snowflake of all. He literally does nothing but talk shit and ridicule anyone with an opinion that even slightly differs from his. I had ended up telling him to shove it up his own ass on the status that proceeded that one, I believe. Quinn's fun to mess with more than Lucian, though.
>>1083332Boy am I glad I'm not the only one to notice how much of a special snowflake he's been trying to be. It seems that anyone I know who becomes friends with him fall into the same stupid snowflake horseshit and I don't even know them anymore. It's one thing to change over time, but it's enough to be a venomous little twat just for the sake of it.
A self proclaimed gender bender queer, who owns a full fursuit, which happens to be a cross between a wolf and a butterfly, who is in a poly relationship with a guy and a girl (and treats the guy like crap, by the by), and just so happens to be abusively and abrasively opinionated with absolutely no ability to discuss such temperamental issues - all this and a your not sure he's an attention whore?Another frustrated "friend", signing in.
It is everything wrong with the world in one domain.I feel like I am going to vomit
>>1084512Hahahaha he treats Fritter like shit? I kinda figured, but it's nice actually knowing.Also, didn't Skittle propose to Fritter? Doesn't Fritter pay for, like, ALL of Skittle's stuff? What a fucking leech and a half.
>>1083071>fuck allies>As a man I love being excluded!>misandry doesn't realthis guy is insane.
FUCK WORDS
>>1082082yet you're judging them for how they dress??what's the difference between a cisman in a dress and a transman in a dress?or a flat chested ciswoman and a flat chested transwoman?
>I got a newsflash for you. If you are not a trans woman, the word tranny is not yours. I can hear the whining now. But, tranny has been used against me! It’s a slur against all trans* people! Let me break it down for you. The simple answer is so? Doesn’t matter. Straight people call each other faggot all the time. I guess if a straight person gets called a fag, they can use and reclaim that word, huh? The answer is no, they can’t. The same goes for the word tranny.>mfw FtMs can't use the word tranny now?I hope everyone dies.
>>1082082Oh god your replies, I can't believe there are so many people with mental illnesses that think it's normal.
http://genderterror.com/2013/08/05/i-am-valid/#more-35update on the website
>>1088197>http://genderterror.com/2013/08/05/i-am-valid/#more-35"I'm a special snowflake" sums it up perfectly well. Sorry, but if you have a vagina and still wear feminine clothing but claim you're a guy and how hardcore into violent shit you are, etc, I'm not going to take you seriously. I'm trans, and I still can't take this retard seriously.
>>1088197>using the word cissexism non ironicallywow I'm so glad all the ftm's I know on 4chan are chill dudebros.
>>1088197>I was assigned female at birth>My gender presentation is entirely female>But I'm actually a guy! why don't people respect my manhood?I shall call this person a MINO. Yes, cis-men can present as female and still be considered a man and you can't. Boo fucking hoo. Suck it up, life's not fair.
Another gem
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