You're a jew now?

>>1039765

why did you change?

where do you live?

Are there really 'moderate' muslims?

Why do you lie? what are your plans bombing a church while pretending to pray?

Are you aware the filename is still israel?

>>1039793
>You're a jew now?
lol no, but it's an interesting idea, it could open me professional perspectives :)

It's impossible for a muslim to discard islam, they are too dependant on it to function with just their brain.

Once muslim, always muslim or so I think. Is it true that religious traitors are considered to be game in Islam?

What do most muslims do on a Friday and Saturday night, since they don't go out drinking?

Tried bacon yet?

>>1039864
yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Execution

>>1039804
>why did you change?
That's a long but good question. I'll start by saying that: I first questionned Islam during the civil war in Algeria. Before I figured out that it is a violent, intolerant, conqueror, totalitarian religion. But it took some time though
Don't hesitate to ask more on that particular subject.

btw nice pretending kike

>>1039869
Pray.

>>1039808
>I left Algeria to France during the civil war. I am in Paris now

damn, how do you live that you must be killed or something

>>1039903
I have touched it on paint shop pro, yes, but I am not jew

>>1039903
Dude, it can mean "Dump - a sticker from israel" you moron

>>1039911
How old are you? How do you know how to use the internet? Did you adopt a French name?

>>1039765
>Are there really 'moderate' muslims?
Of course, all my family are moderate muslims they are very tolerant as the majority of muslims. They pray five time a day, do ramadan etc..

>>1039765

I'd like very much this question to be answered: Do you think Western Civilization shows an erroneous image of Islam?

>>1039765
>Why do you lie? what are your plans bombing a church while pretending to pray?
I don"t lie and I donét see how positing on 4chan will help anyone to bomb a church ...

>>1039765
>Are you aware the filename is still israel?
yes, it's "dump Israel" i replaced the jew sign by the muslim one for my topic, but it has nothing to do with this thread

>>1039855
>It's impossible for a muslim to discard islam, they are too dependant on it to function with just their brain
Well, here I am, explain that

>>1039864
>Once muslim, always muslim or so I think. Is it true that religious traitors are considered to be game in Islam?
The quran says that once you leave islam, you go to hell, even if you try to come back. What to you mean by "to be game" please ?

What can I do as a non-Muslim to court and have sex with a Muslim girl without marrying her or converting.?

>>1039869
>What do most muslims do on a Friday and Saturday night, since they don't go out drinking?
they is a large varaiety of muslims. Some consider themselves muslim and go out firday and saturday nigh to try to get laid while others take care of their families, work etc .. like normal people. You have to know that the life of a muslim in bayrouth has nothing to do with a muslim in saudi arabia

>>1040027
Game = hunted animal

>>1039887
>Tried bacon yet?
I eat porc. Bacon is nice but too fat, I don't eat it that often.

Did you leave because you didnt believe in a god or did you just think that the "ideology" behind Islam wasnt good for you (and you still believe in the idea of god)?

>>1040052

rape her, then run for your life.

>>1039920
>damn, how do you live that you must be killed or something
I see what you mean. In a muslim country I will have to hide that I am an athiedst to avoid problems. But fortunately, in France I can enjoy libetty of speech and conscience

>>1039964
>>1039964
>>1039964
>>1039964
>>1039964
>>1039964

I love you OP, please convince more to leave

>>1039945
>How old are you?
I am 30,
>How do you know how to use the internet?
The same way you did

>Did you adopt a French name?
No but I am considering taking a non muslim name

>>1039964
>Do you think Western Civilization shows an erroneous image of Islam?
Very intersting question
When I first came to Europe, Islam had an image of a religion of peace and tolerance, and i was disturbed by that. Today the way the western world see Islam, is the real face of Islam.
Islam is a religion and a political idelology at the same time. It has its own laws (shariah) and system of governement varying in sunna and sharia which are not compatible with democracy as we understand it in Europe and america.

>>1040052
>What can I do as a non-Muslim to court and have sex with a Muslim girl without marrying her or converting.?
Every woman has her weakness, muslim women are not the exception

>>1040059
>Game = hunted animal
Ok, well maybe in some villages in north pakistan or afghanistan, I don't know, but the only country practicing official violence on muslims leaving islam religion is saudi arabia

For some reason I don't think OP was ever a muslim.

>>1040194
Great God...

why isnt sufism more popular

as far as i understand it it's basically the bro form of muslims where they focus on individual spiritual health instead of RARW CONQUER DEATH TO THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM

>>1040077
>Did you leave because you didnt believe in a god or did you just think that the "ideology" behind Islam wasnt good for you (and you still believe in the idea of god)?
Well it was a path. First I realised that the values and ideology of islam did not correspond to what I have been taugh in classroom, friends and family. Allah is everything but merciful, kind and tolerant. Once I realised this contradiction, I started questioning even more imams, family and reading the quran. With education helping (I am a scientis, engineer) I progressively became athiest

I was under the opinion that Islam itself is no worse than christianity but the middle eastern culture/attitude is about 900 years behind. Am I right or wrong?

>>1040139
>I love you OP,
thank you
> please convince more to leave
I don't understand,

>>1040268

because Sufis focused on individual spiritual health instead or RAWR CONQUERING and imposing their view of islam on others.

>>1040260
>For some reason I don't think OP was ever a muslim
yet I have been

Do you really believe there's a political ideology behind Islam?
I mean, the Sufi have existed for centuries and still exist, there were also many examples of muslim societies without the Sharia (Afghanistan and Iran before the 70s, Tunisia today, etc...)

Dont you think that Islam (atleast in very secular countries like France) can evolve and adapt to a secular society, adapt to the human rights, women rights...
I know there always were different interpretations of the Quran and that today the most important one is the Wahabist one (fundamentalist one, strict interpretation of the Quran, against modernity) and I'm personally really pleased when I see arab philosophers like Abdennour Bidar working on new interpretations (more liberal) of the Quran (adapted to the French society) just like the Christians have adapted their rules to the French society during the XIXth and XXth centuries.

>Dont you think that Islam (atleast in very secular countries like France) can evolve and adapt to a secular society, adapt to the human rights, women rights...

Islam stopped attempting to proselytize a long time ago.

Now it's our way or bust.

What do your family think about you turning your back on Islam? What do the friends/community of your family think?

Are you disowned by them? Did you disgrace your family's name?

>>1040268
>why isnt sufism more popularas far as i understand it it's basically the bro form of muslims where they focus on individual spiritual health instead of RARW CONQUER DEATH TO THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM
I am not familiar at all with sufism, it has more success in the middle east. It appeard later in history of islam, and it's quite esoteric

>>1040268

I'd imagine it's because rape and pillage feels good man

>>1040284
>I was under the opinion that Islam itself is no worse than christianity but the middle eastern culture/attitude is about 900 years behind. Am I right or wrong?
Well I know better the quran than the new testament, but when jesus turn the other cheek and sacrifice himself for the world sins, muhammad spread religion trough war and conquest.
You have to know that before islam, and during the omeyyade period of islam, the middle east was to the world what western europe is now : the richest area whith the best universities.
you have to know that the omeyyades were rich merchants of medine that expelled muhamma from the city, and tha were forced to convert islam when muhammad came back with an army. They were not pious at all, there was homosexuals, wine, and prostitues in the king palace in Damas. When the abbassides took power, more orthodox, the middle east started to collapse

>>1040052
>without marrying
>muslim

if she does then she isn't muslim.

>>1040426
That's not honest, man, the Abbassides governed for something like 5 centuries, and there were a lot of progress in the Middle East during that time there were geniuses like Averroes and some intellectual collaboration between christians, muslims and jews in Spain or Sicily...

>>1040322
>Do you really believe there's a political ideology behind Islam?
yes, don't hesitate to ask more questions on this
>I mean, the Sufi have existed for centuries and still exist, there were also many examples of muslim societies without the Sharia (Afghanistan and Iran before the 70s, Tunisia today, etc...)
Of course, but that is because the ruler did not applyed islam. In iran for example, the former government that was overthrown by the americans forbid the burqa and even the hijab. He also tryed to spread zoroastrianism against Islam. Same thing in Turkey with ataturk who forbid the hijab.
You have to know that if you let power to muslim religious, you turn like Iran or saudi arabia
>Dont you think that Islam (atleast in very secular countries like France) can evolve and adapt to a secular society, adapt to the human rights, women rights...
No, it's like saying to seomone that the wall is white when in fact it is black. Muslims on the oether hand can adapt to western values, not the other way around. It is important not to make the confusion between islam and muslims on these particular questions. Islam don't evolve, it teaches you dogmas, muslims can.
>I know there always were different interpretations of the Quran and that today the most important one is the Wahabist one (fundamentalist one, strict interpretation of the Quran, against modernity) and I'm personally really pleased when I see arab philosophers like Abdennour Bidar working on new interpretations (more liberal) of the Quran (adapted to the French society) just like the Christians have adapted their rules to the French society during the XIXth and XXth centuries.
Of course. But you never have to keep in mind, that islam has a dangerous potential, and you have to constantly monitor and control everything. this is what the algerian government ignored, and payed a heavy price. Now, in morroco, algeria and tunisia, imams are constantly monitored.

>>1040359
>What do your family think about you turning your back on Islam? What do the friends/community of your family think?
>Are you disowned by them?


its not that easy, I did not tell every one. My mother was upset at the beginning but now she accepted it. My aunt too was upset, but after we taked she accepted it too. They are quite tolerant in my family, fortunately.

>Did you disgrace your family's name?
No, this is too strong, its just that my muslim name dont reflect my identity anymore.

>>1040506
>That's not honest, man, the Abbassides governed for something like 5 centuries, and there were a lot of progress in the Middle East during that time there were geniuses like Averroes
Averroes was in Andalusia. When the abbasides murderd the omeyyade family, only on survived and left to spain. He recreated an area of toleranc and prosperity where muslims jews and christians lived in peace, which was not the case in the abbaside empire. So averroes is not a product of the abbaside policy.

>and some intellectual collaboration between christians, muslims and jews in Spain or Sicily
The prosperity of muslims in sicily occured when sicily was a normand kingdom, not abbasyd

Do you still believe in God, or are you an atheist and not just an ex-muslim?

>>1040506

>averroes, Spain, Sicily.

There you have your answer. Those places were not strongly islamized, and Averroes was something of an heretic.
Islam has always had a flourishing of society in newly conquered lands, which didn't practice a very orthodox islam, by providing security, wealth and a connection between distant lands, but as islamization progressed everything turned to crap.

>>1040607
>Do you still believe in God, or are you an atheist and not just an ex-muslim?
First I was an ex muslim the I slowly became an atheist

>>1040641
>Islam has always had a flourishing of society in newly conquered lands, which didn't practice a very orthodox islam, by providing security, wealth and a connection between distant lands, but as islamization progressed everything turned to crap
Actually the truth is that muslims came from developed areas : the middles east, and brought with them their culture, knowledge and savoir faire, these regions did not progresse thanks to islam but despite of Islam. What you call fundamentalists are the ones who apply islam the right was actually.
Moreover the christian church, especially in constatinopolis was really intolerant, and all the christians escaped the christian areas to go in the omeyyade empire or sicily where they could enjoy more tolerace, bringing with them all the greek culture.

>>1040524
Thanks for your answers, man.

But I'm still really optimistic about a change for Islam in France (on the long term, of course)

How do you personally consider the situation for muslim individuals/Islam in France, btw?
Also, I know it's a different subject, but I was wondering how Algerians considered France : is there still a lot of hostility?

>>1040735
>>1040735
>Thanks for your answers, man.
you are welcomed

>But I'm still really optimistic about a change for Islam in France (on the long term, of course)
I am not optimistic for islam, but optimistic for muslims :)
(Koran 9:5)
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (for example ...)

>How do you personally consider the situation for muslim individuals/Islam in France, btw?
I think the governement must show that it's to muslims to adapt to the french laws, constittution and values and certainly not the other way around. Islam is not compatilbe with democracy. The french governement and the french people perfectly understood that, I admire them for that. Measures have been taken: forbid the hijab at school, forbin the burqa, create a muslim church controled by the government, they now are going to crate a university master for the imams. This is the face of France I am proud of

>>1040735
>Also, I know it's a different subject, but I was wondering how Algerians considered France : is there still a lot of hostility?
There is an incredibly high amount of support for the french values in Algeria, it is not what I would call overwhelming, not 99% not 80%, but if you take a look at it, there is a great admiration for the french economy, a great admiration for the system of governement, They would actually prefer to have a system of governement that looks a lot more like the french than the one that they have got. There is great support for the french culture, But then if you start asking question about how do you feel about french policy towards algeria in general, towards colonisation, war, etc .. then the number goes sharply overwhelmingly negative 3% support 97% opposition. This is why most of the animosity towards france in Algeria is a reaction to french colonial history and the way they consider it.
For example Algeria did not appreciate at all that the positive role of colonistion could be tough in french school programs. Before the french conquest, France owed algeria money, after decolonisation, Algeria owed money to france for example.

I dislike muslims. But that is why in contrast I respect atheist arabs so much more. If all of them were like you, the world would be a beautiful place.

That is all.

Try Christianity. And by that, I mean GOOD Christianity. As in, don't come here to America...or frankly, the Vatican either. Um...I'm not really sure where you should go to learn good Christianity, other than actually reading the Bible and listening to Jesus' teachings, but give it a shot. Try and see God in a new light, a merciful, loving, ever-forgiving one.

Peace be with you, my brother, ma'a salaami.

>>1040846
>If all of them were like you, the world would be a beautiful place.
I take that as a compliment, thank you

Have you considered nihilism as a lifestyle choice?

>>1040877

>Grungefag
>nihilism

Oh you

>>1040858
>Try Christianity
Yes, but actually the christian god is not that sympathetic, he destroyed sodome and gomorra because they were homosexuals, this quite homophobic. moreover he drowed humanity and almost all the living things during deluge. he let his own son being tortured and crucified, he exluded adam and eve from paradise because of an apple. This god frightens me

>>1040902
Old testament is bullshit, new testament has a lot of philosophical teachings/values that are interesting.

Je suis content pour toi, et j'espere que les modérés musulmans haussent un peu leurs voix contre les extremistes avant qu'il n'y ait plus de modérés.

>>1040902
>implying Allah isn't Yahweh with an adopted desert tribe moon god name

>>1040902
>>1040902
This man is full of wisdom. Really, you are more enlightened than 90% of 4chan.

Take a brofist fellow atheist. Let us kill dogmas and religions based on authorities.

>>1040924

Do you have any idea about assyrian language?

>>1040941
Forgot brofist

>>1040901

>Implying I dress like a faggot, and don't just like the music

I was a nihilist before I got into grunge music, son, but your image cracks me up.

>>1040951
>implying people in the western world might study assyrian language

>>1040877
nihilism, i never really understood this idea. I just feel that there is not enough ethic in this doctine

>>1040921
Just because something has good teachings doesn't mean you have to start worshipping it. Like I'm not sacrifying lambs to roses just because I think there is great wisdom in Saint-Exupéry's book Little Prince.

>>1040965

Well, the point is that ethics don't actually exist. It lets you live a life free of guilt, god and morality.

>>1040902

It's all the same God.

Furthermore, he caused the deluge because humanity was wicked and evil at that time.

He denied Adam and Eve paradise for disobeying God, who had created them and given them perfect everlasting life in paradise. As such, they and their descendants would have to repent to re-enter paradise. I fail to see great harm in that, it's only fair.

Now I don't know about Sodom and Gamora, but I suppose if it was a place of true evil and sin and God saw it necessary to destroy it, then I'll have to take God's word for it. Besides, like many other things in the Old Testament, these were "necessary" to separate the Chosen People who were to carry on God's will from sinners until the coming of Christ, who would reopen the gates of heaven.

And lastly, I'm not even going to go into the crucifixion point you made; we both know it's a lot more complicated than just "God let his son die."

inb4 I start a holy flame war...

>>1040970
Psychosis with controlled violent impulse?

>>1040980

Sort of. You just have to accept that nothing matters, then just exist, or don't. Alot of nihilists kill themselves, but I'm at peace with my insignificance.

Is salafism popular among your muslim neighborhood, or are people too afraid by a minor threat?

Also, how many brothers and sisters?

>He denied Adam and Eve paradise for disobeying God, who had created them and given them perfect everlasting life in paradise. As such, they and their descendants would have to repent to re-enter paradise. I fail to see great harm in that, it's only fair.

>it's only fair that all of humanity has to suffer because two people 5000 years ago did bad shit

Yeah. Totally logical.

Things like this are why people become atheists.

I don't get it, why would you recycle islam? Recycle it into a new faith? Maybe one that encloses the whole world? Hmm, maybe you're on to something OP!

>>1040924
>implying Allah isn't Yahweh with an adopted desert tribe moon god name
no i did not impy that, muslims recognise the old and the new testament as being the gift of allah, and abraham, jesus, and moyses are allah's prophets (they do not recognise that jesus is the son but the prophet of god)

>>1040831
I agree with you that muslims need to adapt to the French society and I think that most of them understood that. (I also think that Islam can adapt to the French society but we disagree on that subject ;) )

Personally, I think that the main problem we'll have to face in the future is with the "quartiers sensibles".
Here's what I think : the muslim individuals are perfectly reasonable and normal people, but if you put them together in a closed environment (cités) with bad economical conditions (more than 20 or 30% unemployment rates, etc...), then a radical muslim subculture can develop, a real communautarism can appear.
I think that the only good solution would be to really get rid of those "cités", or at least open them way more than we do now. I know the Mirail in Toulouse (particularly Reynerie and Bellefontaine) and the situation could become difficult if there's nothing done.

>>1040836
I always regret the way colonization ended, and particularly with Algeria, because I think there were a lot of cultural bonds and a lot of things that could have been done between Algeria and France. I think that De Gaulle understood that, but when he finally became Président, it was too late to do anything but end the war, give Algeria back to Algerians and cut violently the link between our two countries.
I really hope that one day the situation can become better...

>>1040993

It's as simple as being good and repenting. God doesn't ask that we toil for our whole lives and pay tribute to him to get to Heaven. Simply that we sin all the time, and that when we do, feel some contrition for it.

>>1040958

>saying "son"
>implying you don't dress like a fag because you listen to a faggy genre of music

>>1040976
1) Disobeying god just because he's god. Apparently when you are in a position of authority morals have nothing to do with you, huh?
2) Blaiming Adam and Eve's descendants for crimes they didn't commit. We should apply that today too, mean instead of condamning individuals to death, their whole families should be executed for an act made my one family member.
3) God said that fags must die. You see, he's god, the supreme authority. No need to explain why fags are evil - it's the word of god! If god decided today that it was "necessary" to destroy north america and western europe, I guess you'd be fine with it?

You just started the holy flamewar

>>1041034
>implying I'm a fag because I listen to grunge and not because I put my dick in other guys assholes

>>1041034

>GREENTEXT

Cool Story, Bro.

>>1040941
This man is full of wisdom. Really, you are more enlightened than 90% of 4chan. Take a brofist fellow atheist. Let us kill dogmas and religions based on authorities.
thank you,

>>1040970
>Well, the point is that ethics don't actually exist. It lets you live a life free of guilt, god and morality
then I guess nihilism opposes the dogma of good and bad of the church. I prefer the Aristote's point of view stating that the good is what profits to the general interest

>>1041076

>implying you're superior by not implying
>implying I have anything better to do with my day

>>1040976
>It's all the same God.
Ok

>Furthermore, he caused the deluge because humanity was wicked and evil at that time.
we dont kill people for that

>He denied Adam and Eve paradise for disobeying God, who had created them and given them perfect everlasting life in paradise. As such, they and their descendants would have to repent to re-enter paradise. I fail to see great harm in that, it's only fair.
The reaction is disproportionate, and noone shoud condemn the children for their parents fault

>Now I don't know about Sodom and Gamora, but I suppose if it was a place of true evil and sin and God saw it necessary to destroy it, then I'll have to take God's word for it. Besides, like many other things in the Old Testament, these were "necessary" to separate the Chosen People who were to carry on God's will from sinners until the coming of Christ, who would reopen the gates of heaven.
Once again, we don't kill people because they disagree with you. Everybody is fee to have his sex with a consentant partner.

>And lastly, I'm not even going to go into the crucifixion point you made; we both know it's a lot more complicated than just "God let his son die."
ok, this is not the subject of this topic anyway

>>1040988
>Is salafism popular among your muslim neighborhood, or are people too afraid by a minor threat?
salafism is essentially in saudi arabia, america shoud have invaded them instead of Irak, Irak was secular state, its not anymore now.

>>1041106

>Implying we're not all in the same boat

>>1041001
>I don't get it, why would you recycle islam? Recycle it into a new faith? Maybe one that encloses the whole world? Hmm, maybe you're on to something OP!
there is no recycling logo on the image

>>1041095

nihlism is a bullshit philosophy

>>1041139
Well, than I'm even more confused than I was at the beginning.

So, he is throwing a crescent into a normal trash bin, with absolutely no chance of recycling, what was OP trying to tell me...

>>1041061

>1) Disobeying god just because he's god. Apparently when you are in a position of authority morals have nothing to do with you, huh?
God is not just authority. God our creator and gave us life. How could you ever betray the person who made you, gave you existence?
>2) Blaiming Adam and Eve's descendants for crimes they didn't commit. We should apply that today too, mean instead of condamning individuals to death, their whole families should be executed for an act made my one family member.
Their flaw of human fallibility and sin was passed down through their descendants, "genetically" if you will. All we have to do is repent for that one sin and we are free of all sin, until we commit another that is. What is so hard in that?
>3) God said that fags must die. You see, he's god, the supreme authority. No need to explain why fags are evil - it's the word of god! If god decided today that it was "necessary" to destroy north america and western europe, I guess you'd be fine with it?
It was necessary during a completely different time and place of history, or at least God deemed it so. Also, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a bunch of mamby-pamby nice frolicking homosexuals just dancing around while being gay, I'm assuming that they were also terrible sinners who refused to repent. I don't know that, but either way, when Jesus came, he completely revised whatever rules were law back then with three rules: Love God above all else, and love thy neighbor as thyself.

>>1041005
> think that the only good solution would be to really get rid of those "cités", or at least open them way more than we do now. I know the Mirail in Toulouse (particularly Reynerie and Bellefontaine) and the situation could become difficult if there's nothing done
this is what we tryed to do in Algeria, what happened is that instead of enlightning the islamists, the islamists opressed the normal people. So it doesnt work. The solution is to provide houses or flats that poor peole can pay with the rent. When you own your house you care more about what is going on around your neighbourhood.

>I really hope that one day the situation can become better...
it's the past, we aleady moved on

>>1041148

Denial. It's alright, everyone denies it at first.

ok I see a lot of people here so i take a nickname: OP for original poster

>>1041172
That's very clever and original, just like the rest of the atheists aka sheep.

>>1041168

Lol nothing has meaning. XD XD
Slaughtering the entire human race is not bad by any measure. LOLOLOLOL

>>1041156
>So, he is throwing a crescent into a normal trash bin, with absolutely no chance of recycling, what was OP trying to tell me...
that I am a former muslim

>>1041162
>The solution is to provide houses or flats that poor peole can pay with the rent. When you own your house you care more about what is going on around your neighbourhood.
Yeah, that's an interesting idea.

Anyway, it's already 3am, I'm going to sleep now :3
C'était plutôt cool de discuter avec toi mec, ta vision de l'Islam est pluôt intéressante et bien éclairée par une connaissance de son histoire dont je suis ignorant. Même si ça te pousse à être plutôt virulent sur cette religion, je continue à être plutôt optimiste.
Bonne nuit, mec.

>>1041196
But why the trashbin, can't you just leave it be for other people to use it.

>>1041189

I didn't say that, I just don't believe anything has meaning in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean I eat babies. 'Bad' and 'good' are subjective. It's not what ought to be done, it is rather what you would prefer. That is morality. Most people would prefer it if the human race wasn't exterminated, me included.

>>1041202
bonne nuit

>>1041113

>we don't kill people for that
The wickedness of humanity was not what you and me imagine today. Imagine humanity where cruelty is the norm and murder, rape, thievery and death is everywhere globally. The world is entirely sin and not a one repents, save Noah and his wife. Now, you can either cleanse the planet of the sinners and start humanity over again with two just, loving people, or you can allow and continue the perpetual suffering of the planet. Which do you choose?

>not proportionate, never condemn children
I think asking for an apology and a promise not to do bad again is not so disproportionate. Furthermore, it is not blaming the children for the parent's fault, it is blaming humanity for humanity's fault. The flaw of sin is inherent in all human beings.

>Sodom and Gamorra

Honestly, I really don't know what to say about that one. I'm not God, and I don't know what the place was like but I suppose if God said it needed to be destroyed, it needed to be. Personally, I don't know if destruction was necessary, but if it was to prevent the spread of the evil in Sodom and Gamorra, then I suppose it was. Furthermore, if that was the way of the past, then it was what it was. All that matters now however is the present and future, summed up in Jesus' three commandments.

>>1041159
Why are we talking about the old testament here ?

>>1041224

I also like to fly cattle.

>>1041212
>But why the trashbin, can't you just leave it be for other people to use it.
wut ?

>>1041233
>The wickedness of humanity was not what you and me imagine today. Imagine humanity where cruelty is the norm and murder, rape, thievery and death is everywhere globally. The world is entirely sin and not a one repents, save Noah and his wife. Now, you can either cleanse the planet of the sinners and start humanity over again with two just, loving people, or you can allow and continue the perpetual suffering of the planet. Which do you choose?
I thought chritianity believed in redemption
>I think asking for an apology and a promise not to do bad again is not so disproportionate. Furthermore, it is not blaming the children for the parent's fault, it is blaming humanity for humanity's fault. The flaw of sin is inherent in all human beings.
Ok, I disagree

>but if it was to prevent the spread of the evil in Sodom and Gamorra, then I suppose it was
I suppose it was not

>>1041241

Damn right.

>>1041260

My point is that by denying objective meaning to everything you deny objective meaning to language.

Morality, being a human construct like language, also has objective meaning within its own set of rules.

The problem with Nihilism is that it treats morality like it is a physical law of nature and not a social construct.

>>1041291

But then that's just failing to see the forest for all the trees; those rules have no meaning either.

>>1041257

Fair enough.

I like you, OP. You're a very intelligent man and debate without insult, which is surprising especially on the internet. I hope you at least believe in God once again in the future, whether or not you join a religion. Personally, I couldn't care less if you were a Christian, Jew or a Buddhist. I just hope one day you believe in God.

God's blessings be with you my friend.

this is what middle east would look like without islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMp6IwkS9HI

She is lebeanese

>>1041327
>my face when America, Britain, and France fucked everything up by inciting fundamentalism

Good job guys, no we have no enlightened Ottomans and no moderate Iran. Just angry muslims.

>>1041323
>God's blessings be with you my friend.
thank you so much

>>1041327
lesbian you say?

this loser is either lying or an ignorant and uneducated dumbass. so uneducated and stupid, that non-arabs who've taken a religous studies class know more.

and you people are extremely stupid dumbasses for believing him.

example:
the middle east was a developed nation? funniest thing I've ever heard, especially since this moron claims to be an arab.

perhaps if any of you had picked up a history book at some point in your life, you would know. heck, even wikipedia would enlighten you to this idiot's ignorance about his own culture and former religion.

>>1041369

>>1041369
SANDNIGGER FIGHT!! It would be awesome if one of you was shiite and the other sunni. Isn't it like one paragraph in quran that they don't agree on?

>>1041320

They wouldn't be rules if they meant nothing.

>the middle east was a developed nation? funniest thing I've ever heard, especially since this moron claims to be an arab.

Pic related, it's a historic shithole in the Middle East

>>1041339
>lesbian you say?
no she is straight

OP, es-tu Kabyle par hazard?

>>1041369

>>1041404

But think of how insignificant they are! I'm not denying they have effects, I'm denying that they matter! If they all disappeared, along with the entirety of the human race, it would just be business as usual for everything that's left, so how can you say they have meaning?

>>1041418
>OP, es-tu Kabyle par hazard?
no I am not, but I respect their rightful fight to recognise the berber culture as they are the true native norther africans.

>>1041405
That doesn't refute what he said though, I think he was getting at the fact that the middle east was never under one ruler. Sure it had some bright spots, but overall the region is a failure.

honestly...you people are so bloody ignorant it's almost funny

just one, ONE religous studies class is all it takes. oh wait, all of you either dropped out of highschool or failed to get in to college.

Do you not agree that Muhammed is by all means an idol?

>>1041432

Meaning is a human concept. It can't exist without us, but to say it doesn't exist is like saying that time doesn't exist because we can't use a ruler to measure it.

>>1041438

T'es probablement le seul Arabe ou «Arabisé» que je connaisse qui ne croît pas en Dieu. lol

>>1041443
You are the ignorant that is throwing everyone into the same bin, much like the OP's stick figure disposing of the crescent moon.

>>1041440
>think he was getting at the fact that the middle east was never under one ruler

Pic related, the feudal lands of the Middle East circa 1650.

>>1041455
>Do you not agree that Muhammed is by all means an idol?
Idols are forbidden in islam

wat is ur fav anime?

Have you ever cast Jihad on anybody?

>>1041471
So when they are chanting his name, they are just doing it for shit and giggles?

>>1041457
>T'es probablement le seul Arabe ou «Arabisé» que je connaisse qui ne croît pas en Dieu. lol
there are some,

Did you enjoy listening to the singing 8 times a day, while you were on your knees praying? What does he sing about anyway, is it always the same song?

>>1041456

No, it doesn't. Implying that something has 'meaning' implies that it affects things on the largest scale imaginable. It would be arrogant to assume that our petty nuclear conflicts 'mean' anything to something half the universe away.

>>1041472
>wat is ur fav anime?
you mean manga ?

My hope for muslims completely faded when the Lars Vilks incident came out. But then you came along! Still, what do you call yourself if you're not muslim? An atheist muslim? Or just... (French? or what country you came from)

>>1041470
let me help you on that
Babylon empire

>>1039765
assyrian emp

Alexader the great after which came the selecid and ptolemaic empires

>>1041471
You must make a pilgrimage go to his tomb (I assume that's what is in that black monolith) and bow to it en masse at least once in your life. Then you can/will take his name because you aspire to be him/be like him.

Also, in that video that's making the rounds of the Scandinavian gaybar video, all muslims in the crowd rally and chant his name (granted, there's some chanting Allahu Ackbar, which is different as Allah is the be all end all, not just a dead guy who was his messenger).

It's like Jesus, being the son of God. He's (arguably) NOT God himself, but his son. There are graven images of him, but there is also nothing stating that Jesus can't be worshipped. Islam, on the other hand, prohibits idolizing Mohammed and thus he can not be depicted in any way, shape or form, however benign.

That would constitute idolizing the guy, from my perspective. There's obviously something I'm missing, some mental line you don't cross ... but to the untrained eye, it sure looks/sounds like idolatry to me.

sassanid empire too

Byzantine
>>1039765

omeyyad
>>1039765

OP IS GETTING OWNED SO HARD FUCK

>>1041515

You're misapplying the concept. (See ruler analogy.)

>>1041389

Hell, their entire bloody conflict boils down to "I don't agree with your choice of a post-Muhammad ruler". It disgusts me how people are killing each other over something that isn't even relevant in today's political structure.

>>1041471

Islam actually places a lot of emphasis on Muhammad's mortality; that he was a man appointed to be God's messenger and nothing more. This was taken in perspective, what with Christians deeming Christ (also a prophet in Islam) to be the literal son of God. This was also why Islam forbids depictions of Muhammad (or any creature, really), for fear that it would lead to idolatry. Thus we see loads of geometrical and calligraphic art in Islamic cities.

>Have you ever cast Jihad on anybody?
no

>>1041478
>So when they are chanting his name, they are just doing it for shit and giggles?
What is your point exactly ?

>>1041572

But it doesn't exist! The existance of time is obvious, but it's like cheese and soap. Give me an example of anything that 'means' something.

>>1041506
>Did you enjoy listening to the singing 8 times a day, while you were on your knees praying?
It's not eight but 5, I think it's annoying, it should be forbidden
>What does he sing about anyway, is it always the same song?
yes it says la ilaha illa lah oua mouhammadoun rasoul allah
Nothing is above god and muhammad is its prophet

>>1041554

It's true that in Islam we tend to strive to emulate Muhammad, on the basis that he led a very pious lifestyle and so if we emulated that we would also be pious. Of course, you always have the certain bunch who take it one step further and place far more focus on him than they actually should (things like donning headgear come to mind), which is bordering on idolatry. You know something's gone wrong when you're looking to the prophet instead of the god.

>>1041579

Not to mention Sunni's actually display a good deal of reverence for people of Muhammad's bloodline. Doing a paper on the Hashemite (Broad word for people who descend from Hassan, 1 of Muhammad's Grandsons by Fatima) vs Saudi competition in the Hijaz, and it's coming across that Sunnis long considered the Hashemites the rightful sharifs of Mecca because of that lineage.

Not to mention the Abbasids were Hashemite (but Sunni), and the Umayyads I think were from Muhammad's other Grandson.

How does the word sandnigger make you feel? be honest.

>>1041579
Is that kind of the main beef Islam has with Christianity? There's got to be more to it than that, though fighting over which of Mohammed's long-since-dead relatives should have ruled - at the cost of endless bloodshed and grief through the ages - I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it was all over "Hey, your favorite prophet was NOT some immortal, magical guy. He was a simple, however blessed, mortal man and I'll fucking kill you to make my point"

>>1041523
>My hope for muslims completely faded when the Lars Vilks incident came out.
Yes this is another evidence that islam is not compatible with democracy
(Surat Al-Taubah, 9: 12-16)""And if they speak evil of your Faith, then fight the leaders of infidelity. So that they may stop. Fight them, so that Allah should punish them at your hands and disgrace them, and help you win against them and bring relief to bosoms of a believing people, and remove the rage of their hearts. If you get ready to fight them, help and support from Allah will be with you. They have already become Divine punishment because of their evil deeds but this punishment will not come down upon them from the heavens or up from beneath the Earth. Instead of that, says the verse: that is, ‘Allah will punish them at their hands."

>But then you came along! Still, what do you call yourself if you're not muslim? An atheist muslim? Or just... (French? or what country you came from)
religion and nationality are differents identities
I am an athiest
I am both french and algerian

I just want extremist muslims to just fuck off with my country, it's cost nothing but a ton of money, and lives. Muslimbros are fine. Signed, the Philippines.

>>1040733
>What you call fundamentalists are the ones who apply islam the right was actually.

nope, you are wrong

the islam practised by these people is the wrong one

>>1041554

Muhammad's tomb isn't in the Kabaa. I forget just what the Kabaa is, I've heard it either contains a meteor, it was where Abraham was about to sacrifice Ishmael (isaac in Jewish faith), or it was the first Mosque constructed by Abraham and Ishmael.

All depends on your perception. And there actually are cases of real idol-worship like activities by Muslims, but Muhammad isn't amongst them. It's more with the tombs of saints and such - one of the things the Wahhabists got seriously pissed off about.

Surprisingly, Mecca and Medina up until the Saudis conquered it had a reputation for liberalism and general 'sinfulness' by the Wahhabists and Nejdi Arabs.

Ibn Saud was quoted saying he'd never marry a Shi'ia and never marry a Hijazi woman.

>>1040831
taking verses out of context does not work

>>1041554
>hat would constitute idolizing the guy, from my perspective. There's obviously something I'm missing, some mental line you don't cross ... but to the untrained eye, it sure looks/sounds like idolatry to me.
ok

>>1040924
this theory is incorrect, anyone with half a brain could understand that by reading the quran just for a few moments

>>1041632

There have been multiple different driving forces behind all the conflicts over those centuries, but the basis behind why Islam cannot forge relations with Christianity on the same level that we have with Judaism (at least before Israel came into play) is that from Islam's point of view, Christianity's a religion gone wayward.

By the way, OP, best of luck in your life, I respect your decision and the strength you had to go through with it.

Even in the moderate community, is speaking out against extremists generally viewed as 'selling them out'? You don't see much in the way of moderates vociferously condemning their muslim brethren or, even moreso, manipulative clerics who act on over-the-fucking-top 'interpretations' of the Koran's message

>>1041611

Your words.

>>1041630
>How does the word sandnigger make you feel? be honest
Does she look like a nigger ? (Jordan princess, she is palestinian)

>>1041672

But do my words matter? I've been using the two words interchangably, so sorry if you misinterpreted.

>>1041664

Not really. Speaking as a less-than-moderate Muslim, I daresay it's because we just don't see much point in trying to tackle the problem. Moderate Muslims base Islam around their lives, while the extremists and fundamentalists do it the other way round. Even if some of us were to speak out, we'd quickly get lambasted by the fundies on not sufficiently studying the Quran or other similar ad hominems.

>>1041523
you are really stupid if you generalise from an incident that happened in a country that is pussified to the extreme

>>1041646
> just want extremist muslims to just fuck off with my country, it's cost nothing but a ton of money, and lives. Muslimbros are fine. Signed, the Philippines
me too, me too

>>1041650
>nope, you are wrong the islam practised by these people is the wrong one
dont waist your time with me on that one

>>1041579
these pigs sectarian have left out the quran and replaced it with so called scholars and hadith collectors
they are their gods and follow their religion, i do not recognize their religion as islam bur rather as hadithism

Why do entities like Taliban flourish? What is so incredibly enticing about NO FUN ALLOWED (on penalty of death, no exceptions)?

>>1041655
>taking verses out of context does not work
don't waste your time on that one too, i've been there already

>>1041721
Butthurt over imperialism, religious zealotry, butthurt over progressivism and liberalism.

Kind of like the Amish except they aren't nearly as bad. And without the god tier pretzels.

>>1041718

I'm not even sure which sect you're talking about. That says a lot about either me or the state of Islam in general. I really hope it's the latter.

>>1041661
>By the way, OP, best of luck in your life, I respect your decision and the strength you had to go through with it.
thank you malaysianbro

>>1041597
in the quran is written that only god's name can be called on in mosques, so why add the prophet muhamad in this
also it says in the quran not to put a prophet above another, why only call muhamad's name when there have been so many prophet's?
also jesus is dead
>>1041621
this is part of the problem, trying to reenact what the prophet supposedly did in his lifetime, first we cannot even prove anything with hadiths as they are mere mouth to ear stories
second, how can you ever apply a lifestyle that is 1400 years old today? this implies no technology or whatever

you just cant reenact what the prophet supposedly did, and these are just rituals
one person can only grow "spiritually" when he actively works on his deeds and for the betterment of his community

ultimately every human is work for the betterment of humankind itself, but sectarian practices just creates more walls

just look at them sects, they all fight each other on issues such as how to do specific gestures during specific time or what to say when you do a specific taks

this is just retarded and i fully comprehend the people who are afraid and against this islam

Yeah, thanks OP and Malaysiafag. This is good stuff.

anyone knows anything about Wahhabism, cliffs notes would be nice.

>>1041642
i suspect you are not muslim, where did you get these translations from?

even traditionalists differ from the translations you quoted, how come?

also read 9 again please
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

here

>>1041721
>Why do entities like Taliban flourish? What is so incredibly enticing about NO FUN ALLOWED (on penalty of death, no exceptions)?

this and that other muslimfag thread we have last week make me feel good

i can only hope that you bros overcome the faggot fundamentalists and jihadi and restore the respect you guys deserve

>>1041783
Except they weren't fundedt to be extremists, they were funded to kill Russians.

>>1041721
does it answer partly your question ?

With a fairly strong background in Middle Eastern History and Islamic Studies, I think I'm a bit qualified on the subject, and from what I have read, I think he is an ignorant, in terms of Islam. French-Algerians are very, very well known for their integration into French culture and lack of Islamic identity or understanding.

>>1040426
No idea where you got this from, but was Umar ibn Abdul Aziz not one of the most pious and revered Muslims, and also of the Umayyad caliphate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar_ibn_AbdulAziz

Maybe one "king" had that going on in his castle, but the laws of the time, strictly enforced, wouldn't have allowed it for long. If the Umayyads were as you say, please give a list of the Caliphs who did such actions, along with references.

>>1041796
Technically they were freedom fighters then and they are freedom fighters now, same scumbags, they've just been relabeled.

According to you, the more pious the rulers, the worse off the state was, and piety increased with time. This is exactly the opposite of what happened though:
1 - The Arabs became much, much more civilized after Islam, and during the rule of the first Four Calphs, who were even more pious than the Umayyads.
2 - The greatest scholars of Islam appeared in the first few generations, and by the 16th-17th century, there aren't any AFAIK that are very well known today (through their works). During the 19th century and early 20th, Muslims were largely abandoning their religion and going back to culture and nationalism, which directly led to the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (WWI). For example, as most of you probably know, Iranians are well known for their pride in their Persian culture and roots to the Persian Empire, which was one of the two greatest enemies of Islam.

I am aware that these boards aren't really meant for such long posts, but I felt compelled to do so after reading this guy's replies. Next time any of you seriously want to gain knowledge about something, it would do you well to ensure the source is legitimate and reliable.

My reason for posting this refutation was simply to point out that you cannot count on his reliability. He could've been as much a Hindu as he was a Muslim. As previously mentioned, a Religous Studies student could know more about Islam than thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of Muslims.

I am also aware that 4chan is known as the trashcan of the Internets, and this isn't at all the place for proper discussion, but I was just passing by (passing on info) and happened upon this thread.

Bye

>>1041715
>>1041734
you are probably a troll but i dont care i'll answer again i can't find sleep

the situation of islam today is the wrong one, it is filled with bullshit and nothing can fix it other than dropping the current systems altogether
hadith have become the new book of revelations and not the quran, the quran is just a book of ritual prayers that are completely useless
why do i see people praying in arabic while they do not understand a word of what they utter?
in the quran is written to approach the salat when you know what you are doing or saying, why approach it in arabic only when you dont understand that language?
>>1041742
the majority of islam today is based on hadith, the majority follows the hadiths books
now let's see one particular point, the prayer

why do the shiite have different prayers than the sunni? why do they pray 3 times while the sunni 5?
why are the gestures different? who is true and who is not?
theres no way of proving any of that, the system of islam today is bullshit in pure state

if you want to get rid of islam of today, it's either fight or a change from inside

the islam of today can very well grow into something even more dangerous

>>1041757
>in the quran is written that only god's name can be called on in mosques, so why add the prophet muhamad in this
also it says in the quran not to put a prophet above another, why only call muhamad's name when there have been so many prophet's?
also jesus is dead
is it really an important issue for you ?
>this is part of the problem, trying to reenact what the prophet supposedly did in his lifetime, first we cannot even prove anything with hadiths as they are mere mouth to ear stories
second, how can you ever apply a lifestyle that is 1400 years old today? this implies no technology or whatever
religions don't evolve, the teach you dogmas.

>ultimately every human is work for the betterment of humankind itself, but sectarian practices just creates more walls

buy an english version of quran,

>>1041848
you are definitely a troll, and sleep is coming


so fuck you faggot and eat shit and die bitch

>>1041848
Of course they evolve look at how Christianity and Islam branched off, I'm not sure about hinduism and buddhism.

>>1041809
>>1041817
>>1041822

Thanks for chiming in. Another educated perspective is always welcome. I didn't say anything about that bit myself because I didn't have enough knowledge on the matter.

>>1041757

Yes, this is what's going on, and yes, it should not be what's going on. We evoke Muhammad's name to recognize that it was he who brought Islam to us, but beyond that all the prophets should be equally spoken about with regards to their teachings. When you have sectarian bullshit forsaking their greater common purpose to argue about technicalities, the name of the religion takes a terrible blow. Don't fear Islam, but fear he who claims to be a righteous Muslim.

>>1041780
>i suspect you are not muslim, where did you get these translations from?
Just buy 10 different translations of quran and check, what do you want me to tell you ?

>>1041787
>i can only hope that you bros overcome the faggot fundamentalists and jihadi and restore the respect you guys deserve
let us hope

>>1041866
that the translation you posted is erroneous, that you should check the links because they contain translations of mostly accepted scholars in the current islamic world

and that these translations do not mean the same shit as you posted