C# is basically just for making games. I mean really that's pretty much it's entire existence.
If you want to learn C there's no reason why you shouldn't. Even if you do decide to go with C# later on it really isn't hard to learn it.

Learn C. It's simple, verbose and easy to learn. Learn C# later if you want to make GUI stuff. (but remember the bajillion other alternatives to do GUIs) )

Wanna learn how to make frivolous apps? Learn C#.

Wanna learn how to program? Learn C.

if C# is so easy then where is your game? Why aren't Sony, Nintendo and other game companies switching to C#?

because it sucks.

>>20311427
Actually Sony is using C# in their new SDK. Go ahead look it up.

Comparing C and C# is like comparing apples and oranges.

Learn C if you want to write programs that run on actual hardware.

Learn C# if you want to write programs that are emulated on Microsoft's specific emulated hardware. (That doesn't (necessarily) mean it's slow, but you're still locking yourself to that particular architecture.)

Learn C if you want to make low-level programing.

Otherwise learn C#.

>>20311526
Or learn C if you want to write for anything other than Windows.

>inb4 Mono
nope.jpg

>>20311553
Is that a bad thing?
There is no reason to make non-windows application, unless it can be used on server.

>>20311553
This, pretty much.
C# is an amazing language, but it pretty much just works on whatever Microsoft says it can work on. If that's all you use is Windows and want to get into XBox/Windows Phone development, C# is the only logical choice.

But if you don't do any of that then C is fine.

This is like asking "should i learn Haskell or brainfuck," op.

C is for low level embedded code, c# is for applications.

>>20311601
Speak for yourself, OOP faggot. I do all most of my high-level programming in C as well. One of the many nice things with C is that it scales all the way from low-level embedded code up to pretty much anything you'd like to do.

>>20311644
>high-level programming

You probably dont know what high-level programing means, if you can use C for it.

>>20311582
>There is no reason to make non-windows application, unless it can be used on server.
Unless you don't use Windows. Or would like anyone who doesn't use Windows to use your program. If anything, Java is at least a better alternative but still capable of all the same things.

best of both worlds, learn C++ :D

>>20311657
Or you suck too much to use C for anything meaningful.

>>20311465
Funny how you can make applications in android using C, C++, C#, and Java. Are you even trying apple and microsoft?

>>20311644
>oop faggot
excuse me, are haskell or brainfuck object oriented?

sorry, I'll be over here using tools that get my job done quicker, you have fun with your bit shifts and structs.

>>20311660
Linux is still used on 1% of desktops.
If you want normal users to use your application, its better to use language, that makes you more productive, while still covering most of the userbase.

>>20311674
Its more like you never did anything meaningful.

>>20311678
Yet, 90% use Java.

>>20311678
Is my phone's hardware shitty or is the entire world trolling me in their praise of Android? I swear it just feels bloated, slow, and unstable.

>>20311690
Because they don't need to use native code. Only those 3d games use C++.

>>20311690
>Yet, 90% use Java.
speaks to the intelligence of android devs

>>20311663
>best
worst

>>20311693
What phone do you have?

>>20311690
>Its more like you never did anything meaningful.
Right back at you.

>>20311595
It jest werks, except on PS3, PSP, Wii, Android, iPhone.

Microsoft. Obey or you're a hipster.

>>20311723
Except you can use C# on android if you use sony's development kit

>>20311712
So, did you make any of :
Desktop application, that connects to webservice, that acceses database with 100+ tables, 250+ windows? Entirely in C?
Yes? Ok.

>>20311723
>LOL NORMALFAGGOT I USED ARCH YOU'RE SO BRAINWASHED I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU XDDD

>>20311704
well yeah, there is no best language, they all have massive flaws fixed by the next one which opens up every other problem fixed by the last.

mite as well use something low-level so you can at least create workarounds

>>20311738
No, and I wouldn't want to. But I did make MMORPG with more than 10k players (1000+ simultaneous), HTTP server that I'm using for a site that serves more than 1M requests per day, filesharing client (with GUI), to name the more significant things.

>>20311352
Unless I'm now completely out of the loop, standard C is more universally used and more portable than any other variant of C. Also, the variants of standard C are still going to look quite a bit like it, so one way or another you're learning standard C. I'd start with standard C, and branch out from there.

>>20311761
Well. There are definitely many business companies, that want to make MMOs to support their business.

What I'm hitting at is fact, that you only worked with specific set of applications, where using C is great idea. But this set is small, and still getting smaller.

>>20311788
>But this set is small, and still getting smaller.
And yet, C is the most widely used language if you look at the combined programs of any Linux distro. Don't forget GNOME is written entirely in C, for instance.

>>20311803
>C is the most widely used
More like it was. And again, we are talking about low-level stuff like OS and its services.
Not user-centric applications.

>>20311825
Did I mention Gnome?

>>20311825
The core-utils, bash, &c. aren't exactly "low-level", and they're quite user-centric. Just sayin'.

>Not using Assembly

>>20311845
>bash
>user-centric
>not core OS utility

>>20311860
I certainly use it as a user pretty much every waking moment of the day.

Learn C if you want to understand the very basics of how all computers and their software works. Also if you want to be able to do low-level stuffs like code an OS or Drivers, as well as code on embedded chips.

Learn C++ if you want to learn almost as much about as computers as you would with C, except embrace a different programming philosophy. Also you would be working with slightly different stuff such as games, certain OS elements and programs.

Learn C# if you want to be able to make applications that only works on Windows, as well as code certain stuff for the Xbox360. You won't really learn anything about computers other than "Linux sucks" and "A computer cannot do that because C# lacks the methods for doing it".


What you can do:

C - You can make your computer dance. Literally. Or an Operating System. Perhaps Both (Skynet).
C++ - Crysis, WoW, BF3, Diablo 3, Photoshop, Defraggler, uTorrent, Apache, Skype, you name it.
C# - Fat Princess for the XBOX360, alternatively programs you could just as easy make in Java, except your programs would be for Windows only.

>>20311803

yes, and like most console games and mmorg are programmed in C and not C#.

>>20311865
Its not about you using it.
Its about it being core OS utility. Can you imagine Linux without bash?
Like ever second application or script is using it.

Depends on what you want to do with the language.

Are you planning to write an ultra-fast implementation of PhD-level math functions/algorithms? Learn C.

Are you planning to connect 50 applications living in 20 different servers spread out between 10 countries and 5 different architectures into one coherent service? Learn C# (or Java or Python).

>>20311882
OP here, those things you listed next to C++, could they be achieved using C?

After reading all these posts I am leaning alot further towards C.

>>20311882
THATS RICE BIACHES USE MICROSOFT PRODUCKS

send all the hipsters to Hipser camp and kill them all.

>>20311917
They certainly could be achieved in C. It just depends on your mindset if you find it easier to do them in C or C++.

>>20311904
This pretty much.

You can spend your time hunting memory leaks with C(++) or make business code, that really matters, albeit that code will be little slower.

>Saying C# is Java
Those very close, but the .NET framework is fucking lightning fast compared to the shitty Java VM. Just look what a piece of shit Minecraft is. C# is even better at garbage collection. I mean honestly, people who say this sound like macfags. Are prebuilts and custom built computers the same too? Same CPU right? Must be the same.

>>20311917
You can acheive anything using C. Or C++ or C# or Java or Python or Haskell.

It depends on what you want to do and which language gives you the right level of abstraction to implement it: 1. Correctly, 2. Quickly (in terms of development time), and 3. With "satisfactory" performance (again depends on the scale of your software).

Insisting on a specific language all the time will just get you laughed at and never taken seriously.

>>20311937
With Valgrind, memory leaks can be found and fixed faster than you could open up Visual Studio.

>>20311937
>>assuming .net framework isn't shit and takes up lots of memory to run.

Wonder why they trashed C# in the Vista project ? Wonder why Windows 8 uses html, CSS and Javascript and not C#?

>>20311962
[citation needed]
The JVM is pretty much as fast as you can possibly ask for. If some particular Java program is slow, that's just because it was badly written, not because the JVM is slow. (As long as we're talking about Hotspot rather than Dalvik, at least.)

>>20311980
>Wonder why they trashed C# in the Vista project
what?

> Wonder why Windows 8 uses html, CSS and Javascript and not C#?
Wonder, why people always believe FUD when it shows MS in bad light? Without checking the facts themselves?

>>blaming memory leaks, heap/stack overflow on the language rather than the shitty programmer.

>>20312001
Originally, if you recall, Microsoft's plan was to rewrite most of the user-visible programs in C# for the Vista release. That never materialized, oddly enough.

>>20312009
> Microsoft's plan was
[Citation needed]

>>20311917
Yes. C++ is essentially C with OOP glued onto it and a few minor modifications to certain aspects of the language.
C would certainly require a bit more code, but it can be done for sure. Everything you can do in C++ you can do in C, you'll just do it differently.

>>20312008
Well, even as a C user and supporter, I can still see that it can be argued that a language can be more or less well designed to help out with such issues.

>>20312001
I guess you haven't heard. They ditched C# after a few month trying developing Windows Vista in C#.

>>20312008
Yeah.
Problem is, 90% of programers are shitty programmers and rest 9% are so under pressure, that hunting memory leaks is low-priority task.

>>20312030
>I guess you haven't heard
Again [Citation needed].
I dont care about "rummors" that "could be heard".

>>20312030
Egads. You surely do not have the slightest clue as to how C# (and Java) works as opposed to ASM/C/C++, do you?

>>20312035
90% according to random data I pulled out of my ass.

No, The problem is that they just want to get it done fast so they can sell it their product and the faster you try to do something the quality becomes less.

>>20312067
> data I pulled out of my ass.
Its not data, its about general idea.

>The problem is
Thats what I'm saying the whole thread.
And using managed, abstract and high-level language like C# and Java can make developer faster with same quality. Or higher quality with same development time.

>>20312067
>The problem is that they just want to get it done fast
businesses needs schedules and deadlines, news at 11.

hence why low-maintenance languages like Java or C# is invented. More care put into the right places for less time.

>>20312104
Hence why Java is more popular, because it is not Windows only. Don't listen to what /g/ says about Java.

>>20312041

you can't make up numbers on the fly and call it valid.

IF you watch Microsoft Windows 8 announcement. They mention using CSS, Javascript and HTML and nothing about C#.

>>20312104
More care in the right place? Again, if that were true then how come most MMORG are programmed in C++? Oh do I have to ask again why Nintendo or Sony don't use C#?

1. Learn C, and now you'll know what the fuck is going on
2. Learn C++, which will be easy because it's just C with extra stuff, and now you're good with both of them
3. All other C-bullshit languages were designed to be picked up quickly by people who already know C/C++, because everybody already knows them

>>20312285
Holy shit, it's been mention TWICE in this thread that Sony IS using C# in their new SDK.

>>20312275
>call it valid.
I didnt call it valid. I meant it as most programers are the stupid ones.

And if you watch any of //build/ presentations, you will see, that C# is still first-class language. Please dont asume the worst, only because its MS. You are making idiot out of yourself.

Both. C for embedded and C# for everything else.

Start with C#, you want to learn the principles of programming first, rather than worry about the details (C).

>>20312311
>>that C# is still first-class language
Nintendo not using C#
Most games/MMORG are programmed in C/C++
Adobe still uses C++

>>C# is first class says Microsoft
>>Believe in them because they care about their products so much.

>>20312383
That's not what he meant by first class.

Try spewing more bullshit.

>>20312383
>XNA/XBox/WinPhone/Sony use XNA
>Nintendo doesn't so that means it doesn't count
Stop being such a freetard that you have to lie to yourself like this. Like it or not C# is gaining immense popularity and Microsoft is only going to push it more and more. You can keep shouting "C# isn't good! Tomorrow I'll wake up and Microsoft will be dead and everyone will use Linux!", but that won't change anything.

>>20312411
Move on to Java, C# and Java are same shit.

Both C and C#.
C is a babby's first language for every serious programmer.
After that you can choose C++, C#, Java or whatever you want.

>>20312430
That was kinda true about 8 years ago with C# 1.0.

We're coming up to C# 5, and it is leaps and bounds ahead now.

>>20312448
You mean it's leaps and bounds ahead of Java 1.2.

We just reached Java 7, and it's (mostly) the same shit again.

>>20312411
Windows only, plus Sony.

Those are the only companies that uses C#, NO one else does. Can you actually think for yourself to see the fact that NOBODY uses C#. But, I guess you can't even think for yourself, like I said. Get off of Micronuts. There are other companies out there.

Just because I hate Microsoft means I'm a freetard? Wow, It's not right to like or recognize other companies such as Adobe? Looks like somebody is brain washed.

>>20312383
The majority of business application used in companies these day are written in .NET/C#. But you probably never know about this because you dont even have a proper job.

>>20312472
No that isn't what I meant. Java has barely changed with it's version numbers, it might as well use chrome versioning.

C# 5 is a completely different language to C# 1.

>>20312494
one example of differences between C# .NET 5 and whichever Java you're familiar with? Honest question.

>>20312535
Real generics
Lambdas
Extension methods
LINQ
Async (in C# 5)
Iterators

Yeah, you can live without them. But they make programing so much easier and fun.

>>20312492
>>20312477
>no one uses C#!
>the majority uses C#!
>no numbers
sigh()
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
now shut up.

>>20312535
Ummm, LINQ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_C_Sharp_and_Java
Knock yourself out.

For extra fun, look at the discussion page at all the butthurt java fans.

>>20312545
Lambdas are coming in Java 8 (finally)
By iterators you mean foreach? Java has that. for (T i : Iterable<T> collection) { ... }. If you mean 'yield return' I'm not aware of it being in java.

>>20312574
From what I remembered Lambdas in Java have horid syntax.
And by Iterators I meant yield. Foreach is using enumeration (IEnumerable)

>>20312574
And they are using C# syntax because C# is the king.

anders.jpg

>>20312553
Why is objective - C gaining popularity..

>>20312605
Because iPhone.

>>20312492
Like Nintendo, Adobe, Blizzard, Apple, Linux? no wait they all use C/C++. How about McAfee and Norton..no wait they use C/C++. I know, FireFox and chrome...no wait...they were programmed in C/C++ too...

The power of brain washing. LOL

>>20312605
It's on a monthly basis. Fluctuations are to be expected.

Are you avare, that you named like 0.001% of business companies?

>>20312613
Those aren't business applications.

>inb4 aspie argument that they are technically applications made by businesses.

>>20312651
Adobe photoshop isn't a business application? How brain wash are you? There are other companies out there besides Microsoft.

C# is shit.

C# is a little kiddie programming language. It's like training wheels, only weak little small kids use it.

C/C++ is for big boys, and adults. It's what people use in the real world.

>>20312680
No it isn't.

>>20312693
Nah, it really is. You probably think Java and C++ are also the greatest things to happen in programming

>>20312717
Photoshop is a mass-appeal consumer application.

Business applications are things which are only relevant to one particular business.

>>20312553
holy shit, why is D so popular now. i understand lua, its implemented in conky now and i think it replaced hackskel ias the config language in awesomew, but D is almost as old as C.

as for this whole thread id say c is the best beginner language because it teaches you how to fucking program, its the best expert language because it doesnt need a runtime like high levels ie c sharp and python plus you could run it on virtually anything and modify virtually any code with it as mmost things computer speak c and most shit is in c or c plus. im a windows user first and foremost btw, deadisland is more fun then playing with .obconfig and .conkyrc .luarc .otherconfigfiles

from the perspective of programming for fun...

You can use C to program Arduino boards. Imagine a computer "system" about 1/4 the size of a pack of cigarettes. You can program it to recognize switches, temperature or light sensors, and turn on servo motors, lights, or make sounds via a speaker.

PHP is an easy to learn language that can do web server programming, e.g. make your own interactive web pages. Or you could write small utility programs that do things like search for duplicate files.

PYTHON is similar to PHP but it also has more powerful libraries and packages that let you create interactive games with much less effort than C++ or C#.

>>20312553
An interesting thing to note in the "Long term trends" graph is that one might easily interpret C# to grow mainly at VB's expense. Could there be some truth to that?

My college degree was all about theory - so we did c in the 100 level classes, then c++ from then on... starting with basic coding, then implementing algorithms for searches etc, then building classes. By the end I had built a raytracer with texture support on their unix system with whatever GL that was.

Graduated, time for WORK. 2002 so it was COM and bullshit, old asp, faggotry. .NET came out and it was glorious because it fixed a whole lot of stuff that sucked with asp (but only VB language for web: VB sucks shit if you've ever done real programming.) .NET2.0 came out and it was much better - you get c#. Then 3.5, 4.0, etc. and each update added a bunch of frameworks - built in ORM with EntityFramework (no more nHibernate and trying to educate team members who don't get it), WCF to replace web services (no more configuring security and endless bullshit forever), blah blah blah.

c# belongs to the .net suite of tools that gives you a huge advantage when trying to build PLATFORMS. I am an IT consultant now, and what I do is take a Client's ERP/CRM system, look at where that doesn't meet their business needs, and build and integrate custom solutions to connect with the products they use. I run into crappy applications people have built in PHP, java/eclipse etc. and I don't mind - Client is always complaining that the shit doesn't work and then I replace it with something that does.

>>20315648
Reaching pretty far. I've met a lot of old people who learned on mainframes, didn't retrain and hold onto their jobs by claiming to be DBAs - even though the most complicated thing they know in SQL is building shitty cursors in inappropriate situations. They pick up Access / VB "knowledge" on the job, as in throwing in some shitty scripts to try to make something work. Least maintainable or testable things you've ever seen. Same people that don't see the value in a Staging system or unit testing.

I've seen new programmers slowly crowd them out of a developer role so they are just on the database side. VB is the realm of old people who don't program but still build terrible shit - they aren't going back to school or switching to c#, they're just retiring or dying off. You won't see a quick change in what languages people use and majority isn't best here - the majority are older people who will not retrain or risk losing salary to admit they are just developers not team leads/ architects/ etc.

Have you read your SICP today?

>>20317152
Have you posted any content today?