The oversaturation of Eastern animation in the Western market.

Flash + Canada

Not really, you can make some pretty decent things in flash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0UcVY7o1oc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alexbutera.blogspot.com%2F&
feature=player_embedded

It's just that almost no one takes the time to actually do it.

Only when it's badly used.

When it's used well it can make things much easier for studios on a tight budget.

For example; Waltz with Bashir cost 2 mil to make.

NOT SO FAST KAIBA!

yes and no.

when its done right, it can be fantastic.

when its done cheap and shitty oh god yes it can be a type of cancer.

inb4 190 posts and 45 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

Let me narrow down your hate for you.

The worst thing to happen to PROFESSIONAL animation? Sure.

The worst thing to happen to kids who want to make animations to share with their friends? Not at all.

Flash is just the digital equivalent of paperdoll animation.

No one hates that.

There is nothing with Flash, blame the animators that overuse it as CRUISE CONTROL FOR ANIMATION

The Animation Age Ghetto

I can't believe I'm defending it but...

Flash isn't bad if used well, the flash animation seen on TV is amateurish at best, far better things can be done with it, and still be cheap.

Yeah!

Fuck Flash!

And fuck CGI! Worst thing to happen to stop motion animation!

Isn't Wakfu done with flash? Doesn't /co/ love that show?

>>9525716

You're wrong. It scared the shit out of me when I was little, and sort of still does.

I hate it.

apathy in their presentation is the worst thing to happen to animation.

Flash is merely a program that allows that apathy to take form

>>9525676
hahaha no

>>9525734
Note all the people who are saying it's good when used as a tool rather than a shortcut.

Disney is the worst thing to happen to animation as an art form.

No one can defy this.

>>9525760
Disney created the animation age ghetto. So I agree with this post.

>>9525720

See: Kappa Mikey.

On the awesome end though, look at Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. Flash, but still awesome.

>>9525760
>>9525676

Shitstorm within a shitstorm waiting to happen. Well done.

>>9525698
Are you seriously presenting a cardboard cutout bobblehead people flick as a good example of Flash usage?

>>9525716
Because paper doll animation actually takes a skillful artist to make the dolls.

Flash is fine because unlike traditional cell animation symbols are easily able to be reused. Unfortunately, Flash's reusablitly leads to copy-pasta faces which isn't fixed with the creativity void that comes from too much anime flooding the market and posture based animation taking over character development and recycled Family Guy jokes.

>>9525769
That show uses Flash and manages to not be terrible due to writing but the animation is just as bad as any other atrocity.

>>9525769
This.

>>9525760
Disney made great cartoons and did so for years.

It was just boring as shit when compared to Warner Bros.

>>9525721
>>9525760
>>9525767
A million times THIS

>>9525784
>Because paper doll animation actually takes a skillful artist to make the dolls.

And stop motion takes a skilful artist to make the characters. Unlike those lazy untalented fucks at Pixar and Dreamworks.

No, the "animation = shows for kids = money from merchandise/advertising" mentality is the worst thing that's happened to animation.
Flash is a perfectly acceptable thing to use. But the idea producers have of "make it fast! make it cheap! make it faster!" has led to it's misuse to just get material out there as fast as possible.

Animator here, and nearly all the shows I've worked on have been Flash, or using a similar program (ToonBoom Harmony). When we've had reasonable deadlines, we managed to do quality animation. When we had to churn out an episode a week, we just pushed it through.

You guys talking shit about me?

>>9525676
>the worst thing that happen to animation

Apathy and cost-cutting are the worst things that happened to animation. Flash is a scapegoat.

>>9525760
>Disney is the worst thing to happen to animation as an art form.

Yes and no. On the one hand, yeah, because we've had loads of copycats falling over themselves to misinterpret what makes Disney films classics - even at Disney Studios, where the in-house style became increasingly homogenised in a sort of 'photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy' kind of way. On the other hand the old Disney films are classics for a reason, Disney had some great ideas (albeit with an inability to communicate them well) and he had some good intentions - to get people to see animation as a serious artistic medium as opposed to childrens' fodder.

>>9525796
>Disney made great cartoons and did so for years.

That's not why people hate Disney.

Animation Age Ghetto, AKA "Cartoons are for kids".

>>9525760
>>9525767
>>9525809
Same faggot

>>9525816
this

>>9525828
>Disney
>get people to see animation as a serious artistic medium as opposed to childrens' fodder.

>>9525828
>Disney ... had some good intentions - to get people to see animation as a serious artistic medium as opposed to childrens' fodder.
Now that's irony.

>>9525780
>I have never seen Waltz with Bashir, please excuse my ill-informed opinion.

>>9525828
Is that why everything he made with the exception of Fantasia was kiddy shit?

>>9525816

Whats ToonBoom Harmony like as a program, say compared to Flash or regular ToonBoom? I'm yet to get a chance to use it, or even know anyone that's used it.

Hey guys.

Go watch these.
http://www.biteycastle.com/waterlollies.html
http://www.biteycastle.com/theYuyu.html

Also, watch There She Is. They are all God Tier flash Animation, and are higher quality the stuff that we see on TV.

>>9525816
You know what I find funny? A lot of the shows that push merchandise seem to have better quality than ones that don't. Maybe it's a bigger budget or something, I don't know.

Hunchback of Notre Dame was pretty dark. And just about every movie had at least one movie that was either really dark and scary or downright traumatic and depressing.

>>9525858
Oh, excused then. Because it looks really nice from the stills, I admit. Too bad it goes straight to the shitter when you actually watch it in motion.

<--- Worst thing to happen to /co/.

>Comics
ONLY SUPERHEROES ALLOWED

>Cartoons
ONLY CHILDREN'S CARTOONS ALLOWED (And they have to be Disney)

>>9525878
by equating sadness to trauma you are contributing to the problem

>>9525820

Flash thread NOW!

Wow, are we really hating Disney?

>>9525868
It's REALLY expensive, so it's not really used at home by most people. It's specifically designed to be used by studios with networks and all the stuff that I don't really understand.
Otherwise, the interface is really nice to work with.

Disney was good when walt was alive. Disney just needs to clone him so he can bitch slap whoever the suits are and fix everything.

>>9525897
... why the fuck wouldn't we?

Disney was a Nazi sympathizer.

>>9525888
An American flag happened to /co/?

>>9525888
usa dont have any other cartoons

>>9525897

I don't think its really hate. Its just acceptance of the fact that for all the good Disney did for animation, it also set back its progress in many ways.

>>9525845
>>9525858

I see you fags forgot a little thing called Fantasi-

>>9525862
>kiddy shit

You mean like Dumbo with the pink elephants and animal abuse, Pinocchio with the donkey transformations and alcohol abuse, Fox and the Hound and the anti-hunting messages, Song of the South and the 'devil's advocate' perspective of slavery, an even trippier adaptation of Alice in Wonderland, etc? You forget that earlier Disney material could easily scare the shit out of kids as soon as tug their heartstrings.

Just because a film's rated for children doesn't mean it has to be condescending, joyless dreck.

>>9525760

You know, if animation had stayed at the level of Fleischer cartoons (technically, creatively Fleischer was some of the best there is) but continued being a thriving medium with a wide variety of styles and content that appeals to all ages and isn't ashamed of what it is it would be vastly superior.

Does everyone agree?

>>9525920
>You forget that earlier Disney material could easily scare the shit out of kids as soon as tug their heartstrings.

I notice that you are looking at these movies from the perspective of how kids will react to them. Kiddy. Shit.

>>9525920
So suddenly scary things aren't for kids?

Thank god no kids read Goosebumps.

>>9525930
No, Fleischer was a rotoscoping hack. Fuck off Guy.

>>9525828
>and he had some good intentions - to get people to see animation as a serious artistic medium as opposed to childrens' fodder.

Too bad that his means of accomplishing that was rubbing balls with real high art.

With hippos in tutus.

Fantasia was a flop and only became a popular classic several years later, people back then didn't give a shit about Animation as an art form.

>>9525942

I'm talking about Popeye and Betty Boop Fleischer, not Superman Fleischer.

By the way, that "rotoscoping hack" produced vastly superior superhero cartoons than any made today. Cry them tears.

>>9525951
OH SNAP

>>9525956

> people back then didn't give a shit about Animation as an art form

What? And they do now?

>>9525956 Fantasia was a flop and only became a popular classic several years later

Thanks to beatniks and hippies, of all people

>>9525956
>people back then
AMERICAN people back then.

Stop thinking you're the world.

>>9525934
>I notice that you are looking at these movies from the perspective of how kids will react to them. Kiddy. Shit.

You seem to think that because a film's been given a 'softer' rating that the film will have no worth whatsoever for an older audience. This from a board that endlessly discusses childrens cartoons and comics?

It's funny, actually - usually this thread works the other way round, the minority calling out Disney as a hack while the majority cry troll.

>>9525981
I wasn't aware the film fared any better elsewhere, can you source youe info?

>>9525942
I never got why faggots got so angry at animators who use rotoscoping. So long as the end result looks good, who cares how it was made? And isn't technically just as difficult to make rotoscoping look good as it is for animators drawing the frames themselves?

>>9525981
America WAS animation back then, dummy.

>>9525991
Spectacular Spiderman

>>9525994
>I never got why faggots got so angry at comic artists who use tracing.

They see me trollin

>>9525984
>You seem to think that because a film's been given a 'softer' rating that the film will have no worth whatsoever for an older audience.

Where did you get this impression?

>>9525901
>It's REALLY expensive, so it's not really used at home by most people.
So just like Adobe CS4 for example?

>>9525981
?

Disney, the guy, did some amazing stuff for animation.
Disney, the studio, to this day puts out some very high-quality work.
Disney, the company, is pretty much a poster child for what's wrong with commercialism.

>>9526025
This is pretty close to my opinion.

>>9526020
Try and find a torrent for Harmony. I honestly challenge you at this. Because I've never been able to.

>>9525995
>America WAS animation back then
...No it wasn't.

You want to know who did the first feature length animation? Spoiler: It wasn't an American

>>9525676
fix'd

>>9525707
golf clap - well said. Many great shows would have never been made if not for the cheap cost it takes to make Flash animation.

I'm afraid the new generation of animators will see Flash and nothing but Flash...and CGI. Gone are the days of real cel animated produced shows. These new guys need to trek back to a time where cartoons were still good and art quality matched - the 1990's, and late part of the 80's. Yes, it wasn't that long ago stuff was better. It only took us this entire decade in the 00's to realize shit was so cash back then, and is shit now.

>>9526502
>golf clap - well said. Many great shows would have never been made if not for the cheap cost it takes to make Flash animation.
Like what?

>>9526718
See
>>9525874

You could say, "Thats not professional stuff" which it isn't, but it is still very well done stuff using flash.

>>9526751

Those are tech demos, not actual entertainment. If it was later in the day I would have nodded off.

I guess they work as tech demos, but they sure don't look good. The visuals are like eating plain lettuce.

>>9526718
El Tigre
Wakfu

That's it.

the worst thing that happen to animation

>>9526194
Who the fuck gives a shit about some "who was first" pissing contest? Fact is all the important and quality studios were American.

>>9525676
don't hate the game, hate the players

>>9526718

They were able to bring The Critic back from cancellation for a while using Flash animation and doing webisodes.

The worst thing to happen to animation is studios realizing that they can cut corners on quality and people will still watch.

This applies to Hanna Barbara limited animation, a lot of anime, cheaply made CG films, and flash animation.

>>9527101
agreed.

>>9526986

How are those tech demos Guy, I mean they tell full stories. Also are you really complaining because they are too green for you?

>>9525888

Sad actual truth. It seems like after 13 you have two choices: Watch prime time programing or PBS. Because there's little programing for teenagers, unless you go out after school.

>>9526322
>>9527047
Ah, I see our underage bans in the Eastern T/Z have arrived.

>>9526751
Uh... it's just one growing plant (very sloppily done at that), and one short that looks like your basic student final project. Shitty pacing, no rhythmic movement, just randomly placed cycles that don't even do anything interesting visually. Let me guess, you've been watching a lot of "animated" TV shows lately?

Professional animator here.

>>9525874

Damn true. This is what a really good animator can do with Flash as a tool -- but notice he's done all these on his own time?

It wasn't Flash that turned animation to shit. It was a combination of things:

One,while flash allows people to make animations like the biteycastle stuff, it also allows a person to do a lot of BAD animation very quickly. This is why Flash quickly became *the* tool for 2D animation.

Flash shows have high quotas and animators are paid by footage. We find ourselves thinking "I could make this look good ... *or* I could actually make rent this month".
Halve the quota and double the rate, and you'll get biteycastle on television. Seriously. Animators want to do good work, but we're SUFFOCATED by the quotas, pulling late nights and weekends etc. Of course this will never change because...

Two, studio execs with no background in animation or the arts (say whatever you like or hate about Disney, at least he came up through animation before he started running shit). Producers who DO NOT GIVE A FUCK what their show looks like. Execs who want to make creative calls despite having no clue what they're talking about. They're TERRIFIED of giving artists control over any artistic aspect of their shows. You see this when people pitch show concepts too ... execs are allergic to risk. The buzz phrase in the last few years has been "we want the next spongebob", but they forget that spongebob hadn't been done before when it came out, and that their kind wouldn't take a risk on such a bizarre concept. So we get such as Five Teens With Super Powers over and over again. These are people afraid to take a shit without checking the focus group figures to see whether floaters or sinkers are testing higher with the 11-15s this season.

tl;dr - Flash is not the cause, it's a symptom.

>>9526322
>>9527047

Eh. Japan is mostly just something for hacks to cling to. They haven't really made American animation worse besides influencing modern Disney animators to make their facial features float around and causing the occasional abomination like Loonatics.

I suppose that if someone set out to make something of real quality there'd be more good animators without anime, but things are so bad that animation consisting of still pictures with flapping mouths isn't really something that stands out.

Though, they've certainly made comics and amateur art worse.

>>9527225
>
>>9526751
>Uh... it's just one growing plant (very sloppily done at that)

Retard thinks the loading screen was the cartoon.

>>9527225

> it's just one growing plant

That was the loading screen. You have to press play after it loads.

>>9527225
>>9526986

You guys didn't actually watch the whole thing did you? Guys you just watched the loading trailer.

>>9527238

Interesting... its not that I don't believe you, but what shows are you working on currently

>>9527303

How so? I mean people constantly complain about "animu bullshit" but they never defend their logic. And we all know what that makes the person...