Many of us bought into the notion that anyone could graduate from a university if only we applied ourselves. Many of those people are in debt to the tune of anywhere between $10k and $80k. That number increases indefinitely the longer the debt isn't repaid. Fairly soon after leaving school, having not attained a degree, those who cannot afford to complete school will have already made a decision to not pay off loans, a decision which will ultimately ruin their credit score, effectively prohibiting them from pursuing other aspects of the "American Dream" such as getting a mortgage, assuming of course they could ever find a sufficiently well-paying job to afford a mortgage job without a tertiary degree. Credit agencies are private companies, not part of the US government. They decide the fate of the people without our approval or the approval of Congress.

It is obvious that the system is hopelessly broken. The solution is not to continue to force this broken system on people who want nothing to do with it. The solution is not to subsidize schools which were established for the exclusive purpose of social stratification.

We must create a legal mandate which makes it unlawful to refuse to employ an applicant on the basis of lack of education.

TL:DR

>>360708572
colon use, consider revising

at first I was like
>Back in 2009 I started telling /b/ anonymously about how college education in America is the biggest scam going.
fuck this anon is so smart

but then i was like
>We must create a legal mandate which makes it unlawful to refuse to employ an applicant on the basis of lack of education.
fuck this anon is a cunt

>>360708681
no fu

>>360708681


You're wrong as well. You should have used a semicolon, not a comma.

>>360708721
Well I forsee two choices. We can either reward colleges for their complicity in this scam by providing college education for free (even though our secondary schools are the equivalent of european elementary schools and we should probably start our reform there) or we can give people the best possible secondary education and disincentivize unnecessary education. People of course, would be free to get information from the Internet. It doesn't make sense for children to get the majority of their information in physically centralized locations anymore.

Depends on what you get a degree in. Engineering - good. Woman's studies - waste of time.

>>360708990
Consider this: In order to build a curriculum, there must be complicity between the captains of industry and schools. This conflict of interest makes it dubious to permit these institutions to operate at a profit.

bump

Occupy xxxxxx has been degraded to mindless children complaining about socioeconomic issues and not having a clue what they've done to themselves.

This leads to problem number one OP:

People are too 'darn stupid. 'yuk.

It has been observed that many intelligent beings actually 'fall through the cracks' due to these restrictions. People who could easily obtain masters in several choices of study, but simply refuse because they notice the long term cataclysm that their lives would waiver on due to such restrictions.

tl;dr?
Don't go to University (College for those UScandy-asss). Go become a carpenter and live happily.

One of two things are going on:

Either the curriculum is based on a specific set of job skills (which it's not), in which case, it means that employers are in direct contact with universities, creating a conflict of interest, OR the curriculum has nothing to do with the job and the employer is merely a part of a fascistic little club that only wants to hire people who can show a certificate that proves their social status. There are too many people for everyone to know a secret handshake, but if you create a nepotistic system hiding in plain sight, you might just get away with it.

Lol, OP is a fucking retard. So you've found that in your desire to not educate yourself further than "idiot with the barest understanding of the world" that you are being denied job opportunities because of your lack of education.

Here's something you don't fucking realize which is that a college degree, even unrelated to the job demonstrates an ability to accomplish something. In other words is demonstrates dedication, an ability to complete tasks and the ability to follow directions, self study and complete a complex task without outside intervention.

And you also don't fucking realize that adding a legal mandate that people have to hire numb nuts who aren't smart enough, or dedicated enough to go to college is NOT the right answer.

Even an idiot can get a degree from night attendance at the local community college. Those that don't demonstrate where their priorities are.

The only thing you are seeing in the media about education is that too many people are pursing degrees of little value (liberal arts in general) and expecting life to be handed to them. This has always been an issue in higher education and that it's finally being published as a warning to those that go to college on loans to party is a good thing.

OP is a fucking moron.

I never understood why it should cost someone so much money to get an education, I'm not going to say it needs to be entirely free but why should I put myself years into debt over a chance at even making it back? There's no guarantee that even with said degree that you'll get the job, or even make a lot from it.

>>360709574
The need for extraneous education has always been the hallmark of the extremely retarded.

I may have had '12 years of education' but that doesn't mean that the guy who got held back two years is smarter than me on the basis of his '14 years of education'

>>360709574
Yep, it demonstrates that the person is a lemming who can roll over and follow commands, but also has the ability to command others. There are very few jobs in America which are about creating things of value to society, there are only jobs to manage 'human capital'. You are graded on how well you can manipulate others and how well liked you are by your peers, nothing else. Oh yeah, and how rich you are. Did I forget to mention how rich you are?

There's a reason why the US is the only country where kindgergarteners have a check box on their report card for 'social skills', they want to train everyone to be a zombie. If you are athletic then you're hyperactive and should be given drugs. If you question the teacher then you're disobedient and should be given drugs.

And don't even think about implying that women are also capable of sexism in front of a member of the establishment!

The need to extraneous education? Jesus fucking christ you are even stupider than I thought. It's not often that you actually encounter people that are actually hostile towards learning something. Its no wonder you can't get a fucking job. I'd be willing to bet you also have some other winning personality traits in addition to the hostility to learning, such as self superiority or anti-authority.

You actually suggested that it should be illegal to not hire people unqualified for the job. That should be your first clue that you are an idiot.

>>360710467
If you actually completed a university level course of any kind I would be surprised considering you failed to comprehend, or deliberately ignored half what I said, and deliberately led others to believe, through implication, that I made simple grammatical errors.

You are intellectually dishonest, and a troll.

>>360708681
You want colon use? I'll fuck you in the ass.

Proof that college is a sham is the cost of textbooks.

My Adv. Architectural textbook cost me over $579.99.... Are you fucking kidding me? I looked at the cost of the class: $436.85. This is 1 of the 5 classes I take every semester. *head explodes*

>>360710839
The fact they're even written on paper shows how backward it is. Everyone has a laptop/tablet/PC/ etc. EXCEPT THE DAMN SCHOOL ITSELF

I think the current system works just fine. People who take bullshit classes in college wind up in debt with no job prospects, and suffer the consequences. People who take meaningful classes in college wind up in debt and engaged in competition with others, creating a strong and vibrant workforce driven by merit. People who don't go to college opt out and function outside the rule of degree, free to work low-responsibility low-pay jobs, take on an apprenticeship, masturbate religiously or anything else they please. There's something for everybody, it has a sort of Darwinian appeal, and the ones least fit for survival wind up in public parks engaged in ineffectual protests.

No one is seriously arguing with me because it's mostly eurocandy-asss on but when the americandy-asss are out in force, holy SHIT is there a backlash. When people invest their money in something they defend it to the death, too prideful to admit they're wrong.

>>360711168
Nah, there's Americans on, they're just all NEETs who stay up all night.

Also didn't they recently start increasing the prices on everything more since the rose the debt ceiling again in august? Enrollment fees, courses etc.

http://nnotherless.com/0UVTA

>>360710998
Your right anon; I wish everyone saw it this way. But the money keeps coming in, and they won't change the system.

>>360711122
There's nothing about using your money to get ahead that has a Darwinian appeal, it's just the opposite. That is a lie that trust fund babies tell themselves to suppress the truth, which is that money makes us weaker. When you use your money to pay for a service you could have carried out yourself, that weakens you. When you use your money to make more money using the stock market, that weakens the economy. When you use a car to drive several feet instead of the power of your legs, that literally weakens your very muscles. Everything about money makes people weaker. When it's within the context of communism or socialism, the wealthy are quick to point out how lazy and weak money will make you, but if the money comes in the form of an obscenely large executive salary, then there's no criticism of it at all!

>>360710467

You're also taking what he's saying at face value rather than understanding what he's saying.

>demonstrates an ability to accomplish something

Tell me, if a man is granted internship, and does a job for 5 years, is he not anymore qualified than the man who spent money on 5 years of education in the same field with no experience?

OP is not a candy-ass for once

>>360710467
So I guess going through 12 years of miserable compulsory education doesn't demonstrate an ability to accomplish anything, but 4 years of getting drunk and catching herpes does?

>>360711514
There are rocket scientists working at NASA who never finished college, and got in purely through experience and recommendations of others in the field. So it's not impossible to get by on experience alone.

>>360710316

OP doesn't understand logical argument. Only knows rhetoric.

>>360711664
For it to be rhetoric I would have to hear it somewhere first.

http://nnotherless.com/NAHEM

>>360711466

Your vocabulary is strong OP, but your mind is weak and filled with stupid.

>There's nothing about using your money to get ahead that has a Darwinian appeal, it's just the opposite. That is a lie that trust fund babies tell themselves to suppress the truth, which is that money makes us weaker.
ohgodwat

>When you use your money to pay for a service you could have carried out yourself, that weakens you.
oh yes, specialization is a terrible thing. fuck. i should grow my own food, raise my own livestock, make my own clothes, build my own house, generate my own electricity and assemble my own circuit board so i can get on /b/ and be a cunt.

>When you use your money to make more money using the stock market, that weakens the economy.
i see. putting my money into the economy weakens the economy. makes sense.

>When you use a car to drive several feet instead of the power of your legs, that literally weakens your very muscles.
but what about the gas pedal op??

>Everything about money makes people weaker. When it's within the context of communism or socialism, the wealthy are quick to point out how lazy and weak money will make you,
i don't even know what this means

>but if the money comes in the form of an obscenely large executive salary, then there's no criticism of it at all!
yes because criticizing someone for being able to build/chair/run a company and become hugely profitable when most people cannot do so is stupid.

seriously op, you should have quit with your very first sentence in this thread. everything you've said since is progressively worse than the last thing you said.

well fuck here in the UK they TRIPLED uni fees. how can they do that? how is that in anyway acceptable? if you got on a train and the conductor said to you "I'm sorry but last night we tripled our fares, it's now £60" you'd tell them to fuck off and report them to the ombudsman. wouldn't you?

meanwhile across the border in scotland uni is FREE. oh, except to english students, they have to pay the same rate as what we'd pay here. it's fucking criminal.

>>360711466
Money has been used throughout all recorded history, and for just as long there have been rich people and poor people. That's just how the world works, so tough titties.

There are always people who bitch about how great their life or the world would be if only there wasn't capitalism/sexism/racism/religion/meat-eaters/homosexuals/school/jobs, and so on. Thankfully history will forget most of the complaining losers because they never accomplish anything.

>>360711664

for example

>>360709574

>Here's something you don't fucking realize which is that a college degree, even unrelated to the job demonstrates an ability to accomplish something. In other words is demonstrates dedication, an ability to complete tasks and the ability to follow directions, self study and complete a complex task without outside intervention.

and then OP replies


>Yep, it demonstrates that the person is a lemming who can roll over and follow commands, but also has the ability to command others. There are very few jobs in America which are about creating things of value to society, there are only jobs to manage 'human capital'. You are graded on how well you can manipulate others and how well liked you are by your peers, nothing else. Oh yeah, and how rich you are. Did I forget to mention how rich you are?

which means:

>demonstrates dedication, an ability to complete tasks and the ability to follow directions, self study and complete a complex task without outside intervention.

is the same as

>Yep, it demonstrates that the person is a lemming who can roll over and follow commands blah blah rich blah blah


So rather than refute his point OP is like >don't you realize we aren't trained at adding anything to society?

Which isn't even fucking true. My guess is that OP is not in the work force.

>>360711900
People are slowly beginning to realize just how scarce the comfortable jobs are becoming. In America there are lots of grueling farm labor jobs open which Americans are unwilling to do. Mexicans who had snuck across the border to do them are no longer doing some of these jobs because some states have taken it upon themselves to strictly enforce immigration law.

The western world is exploiting the 3rd world while ignoring its own lower class because if people had any sort of vacation time from work or the stress of wondering where their next meal will come from, they'd already have revolted. America has the least vacation time of any western country exactly because those in power don't want to give people time to reflect on the state of affairs.

>>360711900
They're still cheaper than a lot of American universities.

>>360712171
How does 4 years of tertiary education demonstrate an inherent ability which people who do 12 years of elementary and secondary education lack? We're not even talking about desire to learn, the fact we are on the Internet means we are continuing to learn at a rapid pace, even if in a disorganized manner. People simply cannot attend university without money. Some people attend for a short time but when loans dried up, they had to cease their education.

People here are so brainwashed that I am routinely told that I would easily be able to get into a college, but all such people are rich people who don't understand what it is to be poor.

>>360712209

finally something i can agree with. honestly every other post ive mentally dissected.

>If you actually completed a university level course of any kind I
>would be surprised considering you failed to comprehend, or
>deliberately ignored half what I said, and deliberately led
>others to believe, through implication, that I made simple
>grammatical errors.

Not that it's any of your fucking business but I have a BS degree. And I didn't say a fucking word about your grammar or lack thereof. I commented on the meat of your stupid fucking argument that hiring unqualified idiots who hate learning should be mandated.

> You are intellectually dishonest, and a troll.

And your an idiot that thinks a legal mandate to hire the unqualified is a good thing. Next time you need surgery go find a homeless guy to do it, after all if you demand the guy with the education and the experience you yourself are violating the mandate you are suggesting society abide.

>You're also taking what he's saying at face value rather than understanding what he's saying.

On the contrary I understand exactly what he's saying and I think it's not only idiotic but that it demonstrates a singular self righteous superiority and stupidity combination that not only deserves mockery but serious ridicule and debasement.

College degree's, even bad ones, are better than nothing. You leave high school barely educated to the level of a knuckle dragging drooler. In fact a college education is the FIRST time you are given real education, in the US at least, Primary and secondary education barely scrapes to the level of teaching your to wash and eat with something other than your fingers.

I must agree with Dr. House. Someone who actually makes sense.

>>360712593
Really? Just going to keep re-using the same bogus implications? Okay.

>>360712385

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm

this.

I raise my drink to OP.....as I just got fired for pissing off an overpriveleged college student.....inb4 tl dr.......Being around people who still go to college make my american IQ drop every second they exist. keep being mad. FUCK YOUR SHIT.

>>360712593
He never said anything about hiring unqualified applicants. Only that education level shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against.

ITT this anon >>360711869 tears OP apart, and OP ignores it and continues prattling about nonsense. also dicks.

>>360712593
>has a BS
>still makes grammatical errors like "degree's"
Yeah, sure. We believe you.

>>360712896
I disagree

>>360712772
I haven't had a job in 23 months and got fired from that one because the boss was mexican and he really didn't like white people. It just goes to show that the second you give a presumably humble lower class person a little be of slack, if they're the 'ambitious go-getter type' they will become a destructive force in society.

http://nnotherless.com/P5NSK

>>360712385
No, you just suck at life.

I left home when I was 18 and drove 2,000 miles away. I didn't have anywhere to live, so I slept in my car and worked two jobs. I eventually enrolled at a community college (which has low tuition rates, and even lower if you can show financial need). I went there for 2 years and got good grades (while I was still working and paying for myself).

At this point I was accepted into one of my state's public 4 year universities. This of course was more expensive, but in America you can get federal student loans regardless of past credit history, and if you can prove your independent student status you can get the interest rate on them subsidized. You can also qualify for financial aid, or scholarship money in some cases. (I was a part of the school honors club, which gave me access to more scholarship money.)

When I was in my senior year of college I worked for several non-profit organizations, and got internships during the summer. I started preparing for the LSAT and gathering information on attending law school and the application process involved. By the time I enrolled in law school I had a 4 year degree, and was able to get a low level job at a firm while continuing my post-graduate work.

You don't have to be rich, you just have to set goals and work hard. If you're not willing to do that then you're never going to succeed at anything. Some people figure this out quickly, others choose to bitch about how life sucks and never take responsibility for their own lives.

>>360713003
It sounds like his degree is...

>puts on sunglasses

...BS.

>YEAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

>>360712800
Thanks for pointing out the logical fallacies he was utilizing, because I certainly don't have time to waste on that troll

>>360712593
this:
>>360712800

And I'm going to direct this back at you:
>singular self righteous superiority and stupidity
>You leave high school barely educated to the level of a knuckle dragging drooler.

You seem to have some hypocrite on you, sir. As I said earlier, the system drops too many intelligent individuals capable of having a degree in many fields of study. The current function of our economy places a wall between them and being successful. This is why I doubt you -actually- understand what he's saying. You're representing yourself as a self-righteous child.

>I left home when I was 18 and drove 2,000 miles away

So you wasted about $400 of gasoline just so you'd have a more dramatic story to tell? Stopped reading there bozo. Take your charletton stories elsewhere.

>>360713147
>has a car
>has enough to pay for gas to drive 2,000 miles
>thinks he made it on hard work alone

>>360713049
>>360712772
here, As a buttmad mechanic without ASE certification......you might appreciate some Irony......after getting fired from a gas station......I showed up at Vatozone.....where I had applied/tried to get hired like a madman.....turns out they have since hired 2 mexicans.....YESIMADDUDEBRO...........

>>360713531
Is there a particular reason why you capitalized the word 'irony' in that sentence?

>>360713311
I moved away from the town I grew up in during high school, so I moved back afterwards.
>>360713345
This was before gas prices went through the roof. And yeah you can pay for a car and gas if you have a job. Guess I thought you'd be able to figure that one out.

>>360712800
>He never said anything about hiring unqualified applicants. Only that education level shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against.

Actually he said
>We must create a legal mandate which makes it unlawful to refuse to employ an applicant on the basis of lack of education.

i'll be fair and give op the benefit of the doubt. he failed to qualify it but, i think he means 'on merit alone'. he's still a stupid shit for thinking that because many firms hire people based on pieces of paper they get at fancy universities, we must enact laws to level the playing field for everybody.

so wait...you're saying my two psych degrees are a waste of time?

I certainly hope not, after all....you guys paid for it

>>360713701
No, I'm not going to plug the holes in your story for you.

http://nnotherless.com/OZF6

>>360709574

The only thing a general arts undergraduate teaches you is how to be an obedient repeater.

Look at the CV of anyone who accomplished or invented anything significant and chances are they either dropped out of their undergrad, or went on to post graduate education.

The same does not apply for applied science and engineering, since those fields - unlike Women's Studies - are actually useful.

Holders of a BA are more likely to buy carbon credits from IAl Gore.

>>360713592
Well yes, Dr House, either to underline how mad I am, or to exercise my limited intelligence.......That I have only a good enough diploma as proof. being dumb as a bag of rocks has perks, but also sucks titty farts.

>>360712762
>Third Estate

The Third Estate comprised all those not members of the above and can be divided into two groups, urban and rural. The urban included the bourgeoisie, who made up 98% of France's population, as well as wage-laborers (such as craftsmen). The rural had no wealth and yet were forced to pay disproportionately high taxes compared to the other Estates and were unhappy because they wanted more rights.

uh oh.

http://nnotherless.com/G8LV5

>>360713703
The fact that you borrowed a word from a sentence I wrote even when it didn't fit perfectly in your sentence proves that your vocabulary is dwarfed by George Bush's small toe.

And to respond to the tenor of what you meant, (if a troll can mean anything) being qualified and having a credential are two entirely different things. What makes you qualified and makes you desired by the employer are not necessarily the same thing, considering the nepotistic system I described earlier. You're not even stopping to consider that the employers are using something other than ACTUAL qualifications as a litmus test.

>>360708469
>how college education in America is the biggest scam going

I don't know about that.
I don't live in america, but i can't imagine life without college (because of the education). I had no direction or motivation in life until my second year of university when i started to learn about concepts which helped my understand the world.

It is the privatization of colleges so that they run like businesses which you have a problem with, and that isn't the college's fault, its the type of monetary/political system you have chosen.

You live in America, you should know better than most how making money is the most important issue. It isn't the colleges fault, they are controlled by boards who maximize profit, blame society and the systems they have created.

>How does 4 years of tertiary education demonstrate an
>inherent ability which people who do 12 years of elementary
>and secondary education lack?

That you even ask that question demonstrates your ignorance. In primary and secondary education in the US you are taught through repetition. Your hand is held through the entire thing, if you don't attend class your parents are called, if you don't do the assignments your parents are called, if you fail tests etc.. College is 100% different in every single respect. A college professor not only doesn't care if you don't attend they don't care if you do the assignments or fail the tests. It's simply not their problem. Learning and advancing is COMPLETELY at the direction of the student.

The ability to get a college degree demonstrates that you can read and follow directions, that you are self directed and can complete complex learning tasks on your own. That you are dedicated enough to complete a very difficult program over multiple years (most degrees in college spend the first 3/4 of the time in school trying to get you to quit and I mean actively trying to get you quit). That you can overcome distractions and dedicate yourself to a task (college is one of the most distraction filled environments in the world). And finally a college degree demonstrates the final ability that you can actually finish something under extreme pressure and hard learning required. And depending on the degree it will also demonstrate the ability to complex reason, think and work in groups and solve complex problems with unique solutions.

But you don't understand that because the only schooling you've had is the most basic elementary education mandated.

>We're not even talking about desire to learn, the fact we are
>on the Internet means we are continuing to learn at a rapid
>pace, even if in a disorganized manner.

Being on the Internet doesn't demonstrate one ounce of ability to learn. You can learn on the internet, but it's difficult and requires a lot of work to filter the wheat from the chaff.

>People here are so brainwashed that I am routinely told that
>I would easily be able to get into a college, but all such
>people are rich people who don't understand what it is to be
>poor.

Ooo, I'm poor I can't go to college. I didn't know a single fucking person in school that wasn't working a full time job and going to school at the same time. Because of the state I reside in half of them were even married and some had kids on top of that. Even then they had to take out loans that will take decades to pay back but because the ones I knew were going to get degrees to get the job they wanted they've had no problem paying the loans or getting a job. College is hard, paying for it is even harder, that you're too fucking lazy to do the hard work required isn't a valid excuse and all it proves is how big of a fucking pansy ass you are.

>didn't know a single fucking person in school that wasn't working a full time job

Then I guess you haven't met any of these people

http://nnotherless.com/CWQO

I didn't read the thread, just the OP post

If you're still around, OP, look into the essays called In Defense of Elitism, and The Bachelor's Degree: America's Most Overrated Product.

>>360714013

well, that does it for me. i've been seriously trolled. i know your game op. i admit you occupied some of my precious time and brain power, but i must leave this thread now lest i become seriously mad.

>>360714105
What are you....some kind of dumb ass?

>>360714050
Here's the bottom line, troll:

If you are paying someone tens of thousands of dollars for information you can get on the Internet for free, you are not smart, you are not God's gift to the world, you are in the lowest quintile of human intelligence and the lowest percentile of common sense.

>europe
>college is free
>in fact, as a student the government pays me and gives me all kind of cost-cuts for things like food, public transportation, books, etc.
>hear americans finish college with debt
>lol

Sure your college might have a bigger name and be more popular but at the end of the day, the shit I lean is the same shit you do, I just do it for free.

kthxbai

>>360714378
You best leave else I will slap your shit..........single handedly......shit will be slapped.

http://nnotherless.com/NZ5H5

>>360714467
yes, your "leaning" is very good.

>>360714431
That's why people with no medical training are so good at diagnosing their own diseases with wikipedia right?

http://nnotherless.com/3XR6G

>>360714526
Whoop-dee-fucking-doo, you got me. Your argument has destroy me, I am finished.

>>360714598
Meant destroyed... well, shit.

Time to gtfo, ktxhbai have fun with debt.

>>360714467
>college student
>lean
>lol grammar
vlad the implyer.jpeg

I've been lurking this thread and I must agree with OP. Also, only Hugh Laurie image I have but good for less intelligent responses.

>>360714276

Is there someplace I can read these articles free?

>>360714580
>buy reference books
>subscribe to medical journals
>memorize
>???
>become doctor and profit

>>360714580
Since we're telling stories I'll tell you the story of a friend of mine.

He diagnosed himself with cancer using the Internet and went to the doctor. He had health insurance as he was a minor belonging to a lower class family, which in America is enough to get you insured, but only until you're 18.5, then it cuts you off.

The 'trained medical professional' who did all those years of school refused to run a simple blood test despite the sudden onset of coarse hair growth and morbid obesity, and the fact he was seeing spots.

After a painful, slow decline, he died from you guessed it, cancer.

>>360714467
Being a eurof­ag is full of win.

>>360714721
At least it's not his first language he's butchering. Just saying.

>>360714580
LOLZORZ I DOCTOR YOU HAVE CANCER GIEV MONEYS PLOX.......it's funny because House.

>>360714431
>for information you can get on the Internet for free

Does that information you can get on the interenet for free show employers you understand it?
Does it guarantee you have studied under masters of the subject?

No wonder you aren't in college.....

Would you honestly feel safe and assured going into a hospital with staff who have simply "studied over the internet"? Don't be a complete mong, that would instantly put you in the lowest form of common sense and intelligence.

http://nnotherless.com/U0MBH

>>360714864
>studying under masters of the subject
If they were masters they wouldn't be in a classroom teaching it to rich kids from the burbs.