Its because without the absolutely perfect leader, one that won't let greed or power clout his/her vision, the system doesn't work correctly.

It's one of those great in theory, shit in practice things. Human nature always fucks up a great idea

It's hard to get passed the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Also, it's hard to abolish the conditions that harbor greed, when a capitalist nation is your neighbor. The world will have to turn communist together, in order for communism to be implemented successfully.

socialism is happily used by many countries in the world successfully.

communism not so much

>>7586748

Because people are stupid selfish faggots

because people are too selfish.

fuck u and ur hello kitty airsoft gun faggot ass op

>>221437219
Human nature isn't static, it evolves along with society.

However, like I said, it's too hard to abolish the conditions that harbor greed and self-interest, when everyone is still greedy. Marx's theoretical society will be hard as shit to get to.

Because intelligence and hard work are not rewarded like they are in a capitalist environment.

/thread

>>221437378
Name 10. Scandinavia doesn't count.

>>221437307
>>221437219
>>221437137

See, that's what I don't understand. Is an incorruptible person unable to be a leader? IMO we need the batman to head a socialist nation.

>>1445422

because they invariably concentrate the power into an elite few and you have an oligarchy

>>221437307

Yeah, it was actually predicted that the entire world would follow in russia's revolution - that's kind of why the russian communism failed, even with the rapid-industrialization, russia as an isolated communist state was never going to work.

>>221437670
Nikola Tesla continued to invent even though he wasn't compensated for much. What drives someone to invent isn't the money alone.

>>221437670

Intelligence and hardwork are not rewarded in a capitalist system either. Only luck. A socialist society removes the luckiness factor by keeping everyone at the same level economically.

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>470762408

Humans are naturally greedy and competitive. THey don't want to be the same, they want to have better things than others. They want to have the fastest cars and biggest houses to show off with. This is an instinct that cannot be ignored or held-back, and eventually will cause governments like these to fail.

>>221437808
Communism means the abolition of the state. It's literally the workers control. It worked in Catalonia.

I'm a socialist, as I believe there needs to be some bureaucracy to ensure the revolution isn't forgotten, but you know.

That's communitarianism!?

Whatever it is it's trying to be global and it's trying to synthesize in true Hegelian fashion!?

How long is a long time? 200 years? 300 years?

>>221437531

if only it wás airsoft

>>221438128
Nikola Tesla lived in America

communism is flawed fundamentally - because the best state would be one which encourages, and rewards virtue, whilst punishing vice.

socialism is happening, but when it does it to will fail because it will always require leadership, and those people will become too corrupt, again for the same reason - it will be hard to get the sociopathic CEO's and other individuals who are in power to serve the system, when there is insufficient reward for doing so, and the reward for serving oneself can be very high.

People in masses essentially act like animals, and so the "good idea" social structures fail because they are in fact terrible ideas, because they fail to treat people as they should be treated - like animals.

>>221438453
I'll repeat what I said before.
Human nature isn't static, but dynamic. It evolves along with society, however at a slower pace. That's the point of the dictatorship of the proletariat, though. To get rid of the conditions that harbor greed, and move on to a communist society.

READ ATLAS SHRUGGED.

If you don't understand intrinsic flaws of communism/socialism after that, STUDY THE HISTORY OF THE U.S.S.R!

If at this point you're still clueless LOOK AT MODERN CHINA, WHICH IS STILL A DEVELOPING COUNTRY.

>>221436851
Assholes gotta fuck it up :/

because its for stupid people who dont wanna get off their lazy arse and actually earn money, so they get mad at people who are better off than them because they are smarter and invent communism. communism killed more people than the nazis and should be treated like such

>>221438671
Point being? America is still capitalist, no matter what the Randians say. The means of production are still in the hands of the owners of capital.

Marx forgot reading his Machiavelli.

>>221438463

It seems to me government is specifically set up to allow for corruption. What ever happened to pure democracy or socialism??? Nations should be ruled by the common man.

>>3869086

The transition to communism has never been made properly. There are too many opportunities for others to take power and the changes are not free.

As far as socialism, you're living in a socialist state, so perhaps you should re-evaluate its success.

Economically speaking it will fail because it cannot sustain itself.

Free-market forces shouldn't be tampered too much. Complete state control doesn't create the right incentives and investment opportunities that lead to growth and increased standards of living for all. Governments are not the best informed investors and often back the wrong businesses.

>>221436851

Communism/socialism will always fail because those systems see less need for defense.

>>221437614

anyone offered limitless power over people and things would never turn it down.

marx theory was basically that a god would come and rule the people.

that conflicting for a start. not only because it involves there being a GOD involved. but also because it means there being a GOD involved.

look a t islam JUST AS AN EXAMPLE! they believe mohanmed was a perfect man who met an angel. well that takes faith for a start. that also means that anyone who follows that follows islam and people who run religious parties basically start to use whatever doctrine to their benefit not the people.

even for argument sake lets say GOD did rule a perfect society or a perfect man did. what for eternity? that's a fucking long time.

fuck that there need to be benefits for that kind of job and as soon as we start talking about benefits again we diminish the whole idea of a perfect man.


so the options are having faith a perfect man made the rules and then it's up to the individuals to implement them.

and lets face it when it comes down to two people arguing over who who right or wrong..bam you get another paradox which results in conflict.

so marx ideal is not just HARD but impossible.

>>221438918
Oh lord. The USSR was a deformed socialist state. You can't have a state under communism. It's the workers control of society.

>>221438973
"Under a communist system, if you don't work, you don't eat"
V. I. Lenin.

Socialism is enjoyed in Europe, the United States (whether we want to admit it or not), and all over the world.

It's Libertarianism that doesn't work anywhere. Seriously, you can find it in places where the government isn't strong enough to keep order and that's it. Those places are Not Where You Want To Tread Because Some Dude Will Shoot You With A Big Gun.

I think that a communist would argue that Democracy hasn't 'worked' either. They would point out that of the superpowers of the last hundred years, two out of three have had communism, then they'd look at Cuba and say 'well that works pretty well, despite the US's best efforts'.

>>221437808

You called?

>>221438754
Human nature hasn't varied much at all ever, we still only look out for ourselves. It's only the recent ability to see that we benefit by cooperation. See: Adam Smith, John Forbes Nash

>>221438918

Rand's a fucking idiot...

You all say people are selfish, yet why should I have to work, while some lazy fuck does nothing? Does that make me selfish for saying why should I waste my life so that someone else can do what they want. Capitalism isn't perfect, but I have just as much of a chance as the next fucker to make it big if I work my ass off, but at least it gives me something to work towards

hurr durr because it dont work.
1. proclaim the socialist myth of fairness/equality/opportunity
2. after a microsecond of thought, all the greedy, smart and connected people figure out to win you just get into the party hierarchy.
3. Party hierarchy rapes the proletariat and blames it on, oh, aristocrats, insurance co's, banks -you get the drift.
4. After a few years or decades, the common folks figure it out and the system crumbles, either from another revolution or through elections, economic collapse, etc.....

It cannot work regardless of leaders, people, culture, desire, etc. It is physically impossible to efficiently coordinate markets by committee. It's physically impossible to collect the necessary information, much less do it in real time. And even if it was possible, there's nothing to compel said committee to make the best economic decisions.

It cannot work any more than you can get to the moon by flapping your arms.

People who claim it can work are either a) are using it to gain power for themselves, or b) are too ignorant and naive to realize how terribly flawed of an idea it actually is.

>>221439362

america is a socialist country? Bullshit. We are a democratic republic (minus the democratic part).

a ruling class is necessary which makes it flawed like so many others have said in this thread. all theorizing about specifics are null because of the possibility that having a leader with the ability to become corrupted is present.

>>221439454

Troll, or never read Marx....

I'm not a communist - I feel it's overly optimistic of human nature - but even I can tell you're a fucking retard or a troll. :D

Because it's too good.As long as there is capitalism or democracy communism can not prosper.Even anarchy is better than democracy(Spanish civil war).

Because the noble intentions of the founders of nations are invariably subverted by the greed and selfishness of individuals who later succeed them.

This is also not a problem with Communism or Socialism alone, as any sort of government can be subverted in this way.

As long as there is greed and selfishness, implementing a utopian government style simply isn't feasible.

Because flat-out Communism isn't an option, in this day and age Socialist Democracies are our best bet. The best way to safeguard such an institution is to force it's innermost functions to be transparent, that it might be scrutinzed by the people.

Problems of corruption begin when the details of the workings of governments get hidden.

Because communism has never been implemented at all. Communism indicate no leader. Marx and then Lenin argued that following the revolution there would be a dictatorship of the proletariat. However all 'communist states' never saw the end of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

I would simply argue that in order to have a true communist society you need dedicated socialists who choose on their own to live that way.

In that regard there are hundreds of socialist and communist communes around the world that have been working just fine and will continue to work fine.

TL;DR Communism can not be forced on a people. Only people who choose to live in a communist society can get together and make it work.

To avoid corruption, I propose term limits on all posts as well as a death sentence to be carried out upon completion of said posts.

So you want power, do you? Go get it.

that gun is so cute i want one

>>221439362
80% of the world's population live on less than 10$ a day. I wouldn't really say that capitalism spreads wealth around the board efficiently, or that capitalists invest in the right things. The invisible hand theory of Adam Smith has proven false for a while now.

"Capitalism is the belief that the wickedest of men, will perform the wickedest of deeds, for the good of the people"

It has to be by choice, not by bloody revolution. It is difficult to find a population of bourgeoisie willing to give up everything without vengeance to create a seemingly Utopian society.

Perhaps she should talk to the the "Fendippitous" Egg Men!!

shit dont work in real life man. it goes against everything in human nature, goes against the way were programmed. its just an idea

>>221440082
>>221440272

These guys.

>>221439592

Again, human nature evolves. When the conditions that harbor greed and self-interest are taken away, greed itself goes away. These aren't inherent properties of humans. They're instilled by capitalism.

>>221440299

>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433
>>221440433

>>221440299

GTFO you aren't funny. cut this shit out.

Dont wrry caiplatism nattrally evolves intoo communism/socialism

>>221440512

Read Morgen's theories on primitive communism. Good way to back up that argument.

Also you're a faggot. Cause this is 4chan and you're expressing a valuable idea.

The biggest question here is;
Do people in Star Trek live in communism?

because socialism/communism sounds great until you run out of other peoples money

communism and socialism isnt the same, op fag.

Socialism works since ages very well... Ok its another form of socialism, but it is - all these socialstates exist, most of them in europe... like Switzerland for example. They didn't even had to fight in the second world war and they didn't even had this fucking economy crisis.

Fucking Swissfags -.-

>>221439500
>Socialism is enjoyed in Europe, the United States (whether we want to admit it or not), and all over the world.

Socialism is not "enjoyed", it is endured, in some places with very painful consequences.

>It's Libertarianism that doesn't work anywhere.

For the first 150 years it worked extremely well in the U.S. and, in fact, made the U.S. a world power.

>Seriously, you can find it in places where the government isn't strong enough to keep order and that's it.

You obviously do not understand what Libertarian philosophy teaches.

>I think that a communist would argue that Democracy hasn't 'worked' either.

Democracy doesn't work, which is why the framers of the U.S. Constitution did not make the U.S. a pure democracy.


>They would point out that of the superpowers of the last hundred years, two out of three have had communism,

To who are you referring? There have only been two super powers, and the communist one fell apart. Of the great powers prior to WWII, only one was communist.

> then they'd look at Cuba and say 'well that works pretty well, despite the US's best efforts'.

I often wonder what mental gymnastics are necessary for people to believe that a country 'works pretty well' when its people risk certain death to escape by boat.

>>221440512
I guess you're really fuckin retarded, enjoy your low IQ

>>221440987
They don't use money anymore... I remember that.

@all faggots in this thread:

lrn2kibbutz

>>221439910


no bro i might be retard but herpy derp hurp durp!

>>221440512

30 minutes observing 3 year olds disagrees with you.. sorry bro. :(

>>221440512
you clearly aren't a marxist, marx explains quite specifically that human nature is controlled by economic conditions (materialism).

>>221441001
Money is a construct of society. As we already live in a world where the value of things is abritrarily decided. Society could arbitrarily create value in other things on a whim, if it so chose.

In the end, the thing of truest value is sustenance.

Communism requires, in this modern age, three components.

1. Cyberocracy, that's the complete digitalisation and, where possible, automation of beurocratic processes. To prevent extensive corruption.
Ideally, this would extent even into the management of the economy and therefore increase its efficience above that of current free market systems. This is a very big technical challenge.

2. Dedicated, technocratic leadership. Not the most populist leaders who can garner the most votes by the people (who, after all, aren't the smartest. You know this to be true.), but the ones actually most suited to the tasks at hand. To keep them corruption-free is a tremendous theoretical challenge.

3. Massively reduced overpopulation. Because, considering current global trends, without this, ANY system will fail. But when capitalism/democracy fail, it won't be blamed on systemic deficiencies. With a communist system, the system will be blamed. This challenge is a cultural and social one.

These three are the biggest hurdles, aside form actually selling the concept to people...again.

>>221436851
EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR THE FENDIPPITOUS EGG MEN...??

LOOK WE ALL HAVE TO GET RID OF OUR MATERIAL WEALTH AND LIVE IN TREES AGAIN!!

I FOR ONE AM TOTALLY GOING TO DO THIS!!

BUT FIRST I HAVE TO FINISH PLAYING VARIOUS VIDEO GAMES AND FINDINGA JOB SO I CAN FUCK A HOT GIRL IN THE ASSHOLE BECAUSE I DONT GOT NO GAME AND NEVER AM GOING TO TALK A GIRL INTO LETTING ME FUCK HER ASSHOLE

THE I WILL LIVE IN A TREE OK!!

Socialism influences most of modern day societies to some extent, nothing is black and white...

Even the US is partly socialist. I dare say socialism is a requirement for an industrialised country to work at all, or 100% employment (which in reality is impossible).

Communism is not the same thing as socialism. This is why the healthcare bill isn't communist, for example. The reason communism can't work in reality is because there will always be a select few having the definite power and these will sooner or later take control out of greed. Such is the human nature.

>80% of the world's population live on less than 10$ a day. I wouldn't really say that capitalism spreads wealth around the board efficiently,

Nobody ever claimed that's what capitalism did. Free market coordinated economies make the most efficient use of available resources. Part of making the most efficient use of available resources is paying more for valuable resources (human capital included), paying less for resources which aren't that valuable, and out right destroying participants (businesses or even individuals) who refuse to heed market signals and produce what the market demands.

Capitalism spreads wealth your way when you do something the market (read: other human beings) needs you to do. If you refuse to do that, tough luck.

>or that capitalists invest in the right things. The invisible hand theory of Adam Smith has proven false for a while now.

It has never been proven false. Bad investments only happen where government distorts a market.

>>3307807

>>221442676
>The reason communism can't work in reality is because there will always be a select few having the definite power and these will sooner or later take control out of greed. Such is the human nature.

That's also the reason why democratic capitalism can't work. Sooner or later the entire democratic government will merely be a front for the rich and powerful that control it.

>>221442676
if you remove the economic conditions from the bourgeoisie, according to marx, humans aren't greedy by nature but become greedy because of the economic conditions of the time.

>I dare say socialism is a requirement for an industrialised country to work at all,

Based on what do you say this?

>or 100% employment (which in reality is impossible).

Generally speaking the more socialist a nation is, the higher the unemployment rate, and/or the higher the number of people employed performing useless tasks which do not benefit the economy.

>Communism is not the same thing as socialism.

Fundamentally they are both market coordination by committee. And fundamentally they both suffer the same fatal flaws.

* Sufficient information to make efficient economic decisions cannot be gathered and interpreted in time.

* Decision makers have no reason to make decisions which benefit the economy as a whole, as opposed to making decisions which benefit themselves, their friends, or nobody in particular.

>>221442794
But the value of being human, in a world so full of humans, is near nothing. The have-people can treat the have-not people like shit simply because there is no shortage of have-nots to draw upon. It's practically slavery.

Pnåaåaåaåaåaåaåarp!!!!!!!!
Pnåaåaåaåaåarp!!!!!!!
Pnåaåarp, nåårp, nåårp, nåårp, nåårp!!!!!!

because it goes against the grain of human nature. those in power become corrupt.

>>221443462 here
tl;dr economic conditions are the problem, nut human nature. Humans simply conform to their place in society, and it is possible to to create a classless society because humans have the capacity to be molded into their environment that is driven by strictly economic factors.

>>221436851
Any form of government can be a great idea until people get involved.

>>221443462
>if you remove the economic conditions from the bourgeoisie, according to marx, humans aren't greedy by nature but become greedy because of the economic conditions of the time.

All living organisms make most decisions primarily out of their own self interest. Period, end of discussion. It is a sad delusion to ignore this basic rule which governs all life we have ever observed, from insects to human beings.

>>221443205
Capitalism is why the world is going to shit and why the US will inevitably fail, yes.

>>221438128
nikola tesla wasnt a fat brainwashed american either.

The reason why is because we are not ready for it, yet. I'm personally an anarchist/socialist, but I know I might die before I ever see a society anywhere near what I hope to see come to fruition. We just have to keep pushing as a human force against corporate and governmental tyrrany.

>>221444770
ants, bees, wasps, etc.

>>221444489
Whoever wrote this is everything bad in this world and why communism can never succeed

it leaves a select few in charge of alot of money... that simple. with money comes power.

>>221445325
>>221445325
someone here hasn't actually read anything by Marx...

>>221444770
I think you should do some actual research on this subject before you decide to interject your baseless primitive opinion.

>>221444232
>But the value of being human, in a world so full of humans, is near nothing.

No. The value of being a human who refuses to do what the market (read: other people) requires you to do is near nothing. This is not new. Do you think there was any value to being the cave man who wouldn't get up and join the hunt?

If you do what the market asks (i.e. help other people) there is plenty of value.

>The have-people can treat the have-not people like shit simply because there is no shortage of have-nots to draw upon. It's practically slavery.

The haves make the most money off the also-haves. Can Bill Gates sell a computer OS to someone living in a mud hut?

BTW, I'm not saying there should be no government or laws. Free markets absolutely depend upon rule of law, and thrive when that law protects individual liberty and property. But the reason free markets chew some people up is generally because those people refuse to do anything to make themselves more valuable (read: help their fellow human beings).

>>221444489
Belief that everyone is the same is what fucks you in the ass. Not only are people not the same there is an explicit desire to be different

Another thing is this: The ones that keep explaining to you why socialism/communism cannot succeed are the media, the schools, and, sometimes, the politicians quite directly. And who stands behind all these things?

The rich. The powerful.
The capitalists.

Capitalists telling you Communism is a bad thing?
Yea sure.

Socialism has succeeded in France, Sweden, and to a degree in Britain.

It hasn't worked thus far in America due to the lower standards of education, manipulation by the wealth in advertising and news, and the stubborn retardation of the American right.

That and we have to monolithic big business parties. Want to do something? Vote Libertarian or some form of Independent.

>>221445449
Money is a construct of society. You can kill the rich as easily as you can kill the poor. The thing about the poor is that there are a hundred times as many of them.

>>221446114

Any evidence to contradict that statement? Or are you just mouthing off because you don't like the implications?

>>221436851

Because it strips people of all their basic freedoms and gives it to the government. For example, your freedom to own that firearm - gone.

>>221437670
GOD DAMNIT, THIS THIS THIS

>Another thing is this: The ones that keep explaining to you why socialism/communism cannot succeed are the media, the schools, and, sometimes, the politicians quite directly.

ROTFLMAO! The schools, media, and politicians are constantly pushing socialism! The only people trying to tell you why it can't work are ECONOMISTS. Generally speaking they're not the rich and powerful. (What can you do with an econ degree? Teach economics.)

>>221446510
People empower governments towards their ends. A government in a proper functioning society is not distinctive from the people, but is a representation of the people. Is the people.

If the people control the government, then they have nothing to fear from the government.

It's weird how the US is always so afraid of it's government.

Here in Norway, socialism+oil=win
There in Sweden, socialism-oil=debt

>Socialism has succeeded in France, Sweden, and to a degree in Britain.

None of those nations are purely socialist, but are a mix like many western nations. But when you rank nations by the degree to which their economies are centrally coordinated, you find that the less socialist ones do better, and the more socialist ones do worse.

I wouldn't hold up Britain or France as glowing examples.

>It hasn't worked thus far in America due to the lower standards of education, manipulation by the wealth in advertising and news, and the stubborn retardation of the American right.

Why didn't it work in the Soviet Union or China then?

>>221437670

Truth

Damn Troll threads suckering me in again...

Here in the USA, our definition of "communism/socialism" has been practiced by Europe for nearly 200 years - and by us, straight up through the 70's. Most strongly, during the peak of our power (say 1930-65). We're still riding on the gold from that era - in some cases, literally. That freeway yer driving on? That's "socialism" at work, the more impressive ones were made when the highest official tax bracket was 90% of your income, instead of around 30% as it is now. So quit yer b*tching!

I'm as sick of Obama as the next guy, but it just pains me to see the ignorance of my people when they call him a "Communist" - or suggest this country has any left-wing at all. It just doesn't. What we call left-wing, the rest of the world and our own history calls center-right. What we call right-wing, the world and history calls *insane*.

survival of the fittest.


would you rather pay 1 dollor for icecream or wait 3 hours for a free one?

>>221437670
you don't need that if you can successfully maintain sustainability. you real all of the benefits of your work directly, and are rewarded for that directly. When you use currency, you are distanced from the fruits of your labor. Being in touch with the fruits of your labor directly all the time is more rewarding than innovation and accumulating wealth.

hello kitty makes killing fun!

People only ever want an extremist view as their governing power as long as there is an extreme situation. In prosperity, there should be competition and self gain.

>>221437307
>>221437219
>>221437137
the three most serious people on /b/

>>221437670
Dr.Jonas Salk gave the vaccine for Polio to the public domain. Norman Borlaug, who changed the world of agriculture also led his life dedicated to helping develop sustainable agriculture in the whole world. Borlaug has probably single-handedly prevented more deaths from starvation than have ever died in all the wars that mankind has ever fought.

The truely greatest minds of men have always acted selflessly and with the interests of the species as a whole in mind. They had no cares about being rewarded by society.

Reward is the shallowest cause to do anything. It makes those who subscribe to reward-systems little more than dilligent dogs for their masters.

Communism works until the point where the majority of the populace realizes: They don't have to work, and they still get wages.

Socialism - See Canada

>>221436851
cuba now stfu and gtfo

>Here in the USA, our definition of "communism/socialism" has been practiced by Europe for nearly 200 years -

Uh...no. Where the hell did you get that?

>and by us, straight up through the 70's.

Uh?

>That freeway yer driving on? That's "socialism" at work,

Considering the run away costs of freeways in America, I wouldn't say it's working very well.

>or suggest this country has any left-wing at all. It just doesn't. What we call left-wing, the rest of the world and our own history calls center-right.

No, what we call left-wing today the founding fathers would have called tyranny. Quite frankly whatever the world would call it doesn't matter.

because people are greedy

/endthread

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>>221436851
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US= Capitalism
If you dont like it then find a place that's more suited to your desires. Stop trying to change how the system works its worked out pretty good so far. The only reason were in the shitter is because the government interfered in the 90's when they decided to force banks to give people loans for homes when they could obviously not pay it back. Thats why the banks took a nose dive, because people took out loans that they KNEW they couldnt repay.

>>221449702
people are greedy because of economic conditions, not human nature.

>>221449702
WE HAVE A WINNAR

you faggots want to know why it doesnt work?

imagine waking up every day repeating the exact same things each and every day.

same ceral as everyone else...same car as everyone else...same house as everyone else...same pay as everyone else

sounds good in the short term right? live like that for 50 years and tell me your not shit bored out your face. because when it breaks down to it, this shit doesnt work because PEOPLE GET BORED.

>>221448443

You absolutely need currency for there to be specialization of labor. And you absolutely need specialization of labor to have living standards above subsistence levels.

In human history the people without currency and specialization of skills lived in mud huts and died by 30. No thanks.

>>221449563
The reason why your highways suck now is that the US socialist initiatives of the early and mid-20th century governments was subverted by governments of the late 20th century carrying on into the present. Had your government not been compromised by the desires of the rich, your highways would be in better shape. The growing influences of capitalism in the United States is the chief reason for any disrepair or ill-maintenence of public works.

the idea of communism is great but all humans are idiots, that's the big problem

>>221436851
incentive. why work when u make the same as someone that doesn't? plus, remember how the government handled katrina, homeland security and the post office?

>>221438918
> READ ATLAS SHRUGGED.

Hahahahaha. Opinionated, trite bullshit will help us understand!

megarofl

In order for a Marxist society to work everyone apart of the society must believe in the system 100% to work.
Obviously this is impossible.

>>221450441

>The reason why your highways suck now is that the US socialist initiatives of the early and mid-20th century governments was subverted by governments of the late 20th century carrying on into the present.

No. They were always built inefficiently, but the inefficiencies grew as the people involved became more and more greedy and faced no competition to keep their greed in check.

People complaining about greed in capitalism need to recognize the truth that governments are the most greedy and uncaring organizations to ever exist.

>The growing influences of capitalism in the United States is the chief reason for any disrepair or ill-maintenence of public works.

No, the growing inability of the government to pay for anything because all the wealth collected from the taxpayer, at gunpoint, is blown on frivolous people and bullshit is why our infrastructure is in pieces.

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You dumb mother fuckers that support communism/socialism need to be put on a wall and shot in the fucking face.

I know what is like to live under communism. The claim that Stalin didn't get it right is a fucking lie, he followed the outline to the fucking letter, even in regards to the mass murder he conducted.

In the places where a free market has been tried, even just a little, we have seen massive improvement in the standard of living.

Commie fags go hang yourself.

>>221439388

France, Britain, and Sweden are successful Socialist countries with higher standards of living than the U.S.

FACT.

CAUSE THEN TEH FAT FUCKING AMERICANS AND THOSE FILTHY NORWEGIAN FUCKERS WOULDN'T EARN SHITLOADS OF MONEY AND BLAME THE REST OF THE WORLD FOR WORLD HUNGER!!!

>>221452003
communism in Russia was not spawned from a true capitalist society. There were no potatoes to be shared in the first place.

>>221451453

It wouldn't work if everyone believed 100% and gave 110% to make it work. It doesn't work because...

* Central committees cannot gather the information necessary to make efficient economic decisions in real time.

* Even if they could, there's nothing to compel them to make efficient economic decisions, especially when those decisions are difficult.

Do you think Obama would let a friend's business go under even if it was the best thing for the economy in the long run? No, of course not. Just look at how our recent bailouts were handed out, at which firms received help and which were allowed to go under, without any regard for economic efficiency or long term health.

Communism is like Christianity - it doesn't work because no one's ever tried it. (Okay, save maybe one guy we crucified, some fat guy in China, and diaper wearer in India...)

There's never been a Marxist government, anywhere. This is largely because the phrase "Marxist Government" is an oxymoron. Marx wanted a dissolution of government through a series of local, decentralized communes run by the workers, hence the word "communism".

What we *have* had, and *call* communism, are oppressive, militaristic, totalitarian regimes. Marx would be *spinning in his FUCKING grave* if he could hear governments like Russia's, China's, or even Cuba's, called "Marxist".

I'd hate to tell you all this, but while Communism's never been tried - oppressive, militaristic, totalitarian regimes have existed for centuries, and some of those lasted for millennia (Egypt anyone?). No pure free-market model society can claim that. Indeed, pure capitalism is, by its very nature, so dog-eat-dog, that societies built on its precepts rarely last more than a few decades. More often they become oppressive, militaristic, totalitarian regimes, ruled by a few rich nobles at the top, and thus stabilize.

Thankfully that'll never happen to us...

Oh... wait... >_>

>>221451635
Your government had already been compromised by business, which is why it was being blown on frivolous bullshit.

Always it is the left working to fix the problems of the right, then when people are dissatisfied with the left, the empower the right, and the right runs shit into the ground, then people go back to the left to fix things again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

>France, Britain, and Sweden are successful Socialist countries with higher standards of living than the U.S.

False. In fact, the lower middle class in America have higher standards of living than the middle class in those nations.

Jesus, did you forget that France had a national crisis because a heat wave was killing people left and right, people who didn't have A/C? Poor Americans have a higher rate of A/C ownership than the French middle class!

Did you forget their youth riots over unemployment?

Does it even begin to look like France could defend itself in another war?

Britain's not much better. Sweden has pretty decent living standards, but they're also more of a mix. Some of their markets are more free of government interference than ours.

It's bad theory, it's bad practice. It sucks. Next question?

>>221453479

>Your government had already been compromised by business, which is why it was being blown on frivolous bullshit.

Social Security and Medicare are the two programs with the greatest potential to bankrupt the U.S. government. Please tell me how big business had anything to do with those sound good, feel good, fundamentally flawed and destructive socialist programs?

>Always it is the left working to fix the problems of the right,

Seriously: pull your biased, narrow minded, naive, ignorant head out of your ass.

>>221453558
France is higher on the Human Development Index than the US. It really does have a higher standard of living.

France - #8.
US - #13

>>221454736

I like UN reports. They make great toilet paper.

Compare France and the U.S. by any OBJECTIVE measure and you might come to a different conclusion.

>>221455088
access to healthcare

>>221454425
>> Social Security and Medicare are the two programs with the greatest potential to bankrupt the U.S. government. Please tell me how big business had anything to do with those sound good, feel good, fundamentally flawed and destructive socialist programs?

I'm not the guy yer yelling at, but... What the f*ck Fox News koolaid have you been drinking!? Social Security and Medicare COMBINED make less than 5% of our total budget. The military makes up 70%. So quick logic test: which do you think's going to bankrupt us first: Medicare for all, or invading Iran?

Jeeze...

>>221455402

Everyone in America has access to health care, even illegal immigrants. You cannot be refused treatment at a hospital, period.

If France had to provide health care access to America's illegal immigrant population tomorrow, their nation would be bankrupt by this weekend. Try again.

>>5452111

>>221455555
you're a fucking retard, SS and medicaid makes up a LOT more than 5%, wiki the shit retard

>>221455555

Idiot Libtard is an idiot.

>>221455555
another retarded fucking liberal who thinks our military is the reason we're bankrupt, our military is the reason we're safe you fucking loser

"I'm not the guy yer yelling at, but... What the f*ck Fox News koolaid have you been drinking!? Social Security and Medicare COMBINED make less than 5% of our total budget. The military makes up 70%. So quick logic test: which do you think's going to bankrupt us first: Medicare for all, or invading Iran?"

You Sir, are a fucking lair.

Awesome gun if I had one Id definitely do teh sam epaint job

>>221455555

>I'm not the guy yer yelling at, but... What the f*ck Fox News koolaid have you been drinking!? Social Security and Medicare COMBINED make less than 5% of our total budget. The military makes up 70%.

You always pull numbers out of your ass?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget

Social Security: 19.63%
Medicare: 12.79%
Unemployment/welfare/other mandatory: 16.3%

Defense: 18.74%

The BIG difference between the first three social categories and defense, besides the fact that the first three add up to nearly half the budget, is that the first three are mandatory spending categories that are in a structural deficit. Put another way, we can cut defense spending tomorrow, but we cannot cut the others without major changes to law. But every year from this point forward they will operate at a higher and higher deficit, forcing us to borrow more and more.

think i can get one of those in Okinawa Japan?

>>221455088

So, uh, basically anyone that personally agrees with your opinion is A-OK, but the HDI says differently, and their reports are toilet paper? Get a grip.


>>221454425

I live in Canada, where universal health care has been the norm for ages. We're doing all right. :)

>>221454425
> Social Security and Medicare are the two programs with the greatest potential to bankrupt the U.S. government. Please tell me how big business had anything to do with those sound good, feel good, fundamentally flawed and destructive socialist programs?

During this last attempt at US health care reform, medical companies actively campaigned and advertised against socialized medicine. I'm not sure you realize this, but if the government taxed the people for less than it costs the people in insurance, everyone could have excellent health coverage and everyone would have more money and the US government would not bankrupt itself in the process.

> Seriously: pull your biased, narrow minded, naive, ignorant head out of your ass.

Under the Liberal Party of Canada (the "Left" in Canada), Canada was #1 on the HDI for 13 years (of 16 years of Liberals). Having to pull Canada up to that rank from the PCs (The "Right") who had been in power previously. Now, currently under a Conservative government again (The "Right"), Canada has progressively moved downwards since, currently sitting at #4.

Under the left, things improve. Under the right, they degrade.

>>221455796
>>221455796
how about access to non emergency care, medications, surgery, chemo, etc.

You cannot claim its higher than the US

< He got it right then the Damned Strokes kicked in. Stalin took over and he is what a Communist is not seen as, because of what Stalin did no one wants to ever try Communism again, that and people who are lucky to get good jobs while others starve don't wanna lose their 3 cars and beach house (AKA Dirt Capitalist) .

>>221457098
>>221457215
Thank god someone on here has a fucking brain

>>221457575
you fucking retard, it's called medicaid/medicare, which you're eligible for if you have cancer/aids/some fucked up shit/etc, regardless of income, so go die

if we could achieve a technologically advanced world (seems we may be heading that way) the efficiency of production by mechanical/ robotic means would make most people unnecessary, only the skilled, creative, and intelligent people would be necessary, to sustain the human race and continually raise the standards of living for the populace. i what i'm saying, is we need a lot less people on this earth, say 2 or 3 billion educated innovative skilled people. let robots do the rest, robots dont need pensions, healthcare, or food, robots grow old, are decommissioned, and are recycled into other useful things. i guess what i am saying, is that wether we believe it or not we live in a world of finite resources, the fewer people we have the more resources there are between us. technology and machines use far less of these resources than people and therefor in a technologically advanced society, we can eliminate the proletarian and replace him with technology, therefore the rest of us can live in prosperity, but only if we share the fruits of our labor as well as the labor produced from said technology.

>>221455796
but lots of then won't go to the hospital because it will bankrupt them.

in France, everyone just goes to the hospital.

>>221458538

All well and good until we make robots that want equal treatment and rights.

>>221453558
France has the 3rd biggest military budget in the world and the 3rd largest military of anyone in NATO, maybe you should check your facts

>>221457384
>So, uh, basically anyone that personally agrees with your opinion is A-OK, but the HDI says differently, and their reports are toilet paper? Get a grip.

I've seen one too many UN reports that upon review turned out to be pure bullshit. But since you want to discuss it...

* Americans have more living space.
* Americans have higher rates of ownership of things like cars, computers, A/C, microwaves, home entertainment devices, etc, etc.
* For most of the last few decades America had higher economic growth with lower unemployment.
* America did all of this while paying to defend western Europe, including France.

No, France has not accomplished more and does not have higher standards of living overall.

>I live in Canada, where universal health care has been the norm for ages. We're doing all right. :)

It's faster and cheaper to get medical care for a pet, a freaking ANIMAL, than for a human in Canada. There are people in Canada who join lotteries to get a primary care physician! One of Canada's big problems is that there are people who wait so long between diagnosis and treatment that their conditions literally become terminal.

Oh yeah, the U.S. supports an illegal immigrant population 1/3rd as large as Canada's ENTIRE population.

Try again.

>>221458538
the proletariat are often the skilled ones you mentioned who we would need to continually raise the bar of excellence, the hoi polloi are useless, proletariats to rule the world

>>221458666
>but lots of then won't go to the hospital because it will bankrupt them.

>in France, everyone just goes to the hospital.

Maybe the US should just send the losers to France.

>>221455796
>>Everyone in America has access to health care, even illegal immigrants. You cannot be refused treatment at a hospital, period.

More brainwashed Fox News bullsh*t.

When was the last time you tried to get treated in a hospital without insurance? Cuz I remember when I had to do that...

You know what they do? They let you in the emergency room, stitch up anything that's visibly bleeding, give you a prescription maybe (which you usually can't fill without insurance), and kick your ass out. If yer *lucky*, they'll give you a sample pack of whatever prescription they toss your way.

Sure, you'll live if you break an arm or something - but if you need surgery, or anything that'll require more than a days care, yer out on the street. They dump folks out on the street all the f*cking time. They even have services that they pay to do it for them. Hell, I got to know some of their drivers by name.

Get real. Anyone who can quote a line like that hasn't ever had to live in the real world.

>>If France had to provide health care access to America's illegal immigrant population tomorrow, their nation would be bankrupt by this weekend. Try again.
Heard that one before too, Ditto head. If they had our GDP, they could give medical care not only to our entire immigrant population, but all of Mexico and Canada to boot. Even under their GDP, their system is over-funded, hence the insane benefits they provide that we could only dream of, HMO or neigh (door-to-door doctors anyone?)

Granted, they have a government dedicated to their people rather than to their corporations - that's where the difference lies, and why we can never get there. However, since our corporations are being smothered by paying our health insurance, something will break eventually. Most likely, as in this last "health care reform" bill, they'll just find a way of making us all pay for their allowing those blood sucking insurance companies to operate.

>>221459317
you goddamned socialist, get a fucking job, which if you went to college to get a decent job you'd have decent insurance, you're the cancer killing this country

>>221459075

> There are people in Canada who join lotteries to get a primary care physician!

lol

You are either a troll, or have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.