so evangelion ruined the industry?

>>84279700
It actually helped the industry hence the word "curse."

>>84279476 (OP)
>judged based not on the quality of the work but on the amount of sales.
How can this be new?

Evangelion invented moe.

If so many damn anime directors realize how shitty anime is becoming and hate moe garbage why is nothing changing?

>As a result, [the industry] has deserted the middle and high school students who are supposed to be the primary audience.
Is this a bad thing?

>>84279842
Because the directors aren't the ones funding shows.

Ancient news.

>>84279903
Obviously they were the group looking for the height of artistic creativity!

One more retard spouting idiocy to remain relevant.

What a load of shit.

>>84279777

Because economic models didn't anticipate demand for anime was as high as it was. If your product doesn't sell a lot each year, you are only projecting modest returns from quarter to quarter.

Now that companies have a better idea of what true demand is, they're exploiting it and can't go back.

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>>84279476 (OP)
>"The entire anime industry operates under the curse of Eva."

Eva and Oda, yes.

And the cure is Kubo.

>WAAAAAH we have to produce the things our customers enjoy

>>84279842

Because when a product becomes ghettoized it's very hard to escape. Anime in Japan faces the same problem print comics have reaching a larger audience in the US: profits are driven by rabid fanbase that wants what they want and no changes, prices are set for that size of audience, and they scare off everyone else who might spend money on it.

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>"When asked about how Malick was able to secure financing for his projects in a changing industry, Gonda sat back and smiled,

> 'We (producers) give Malick money because although his films may not be financially viable in the traditional sales sense they do win a wide variety of awards. We then take these awards, which are often adorned with fine jewels, purified gold, and other rare metals, and melt them down - allowing them to sell the newly obtained goods at a high price and obtain the high profit margin they originally desired. It's just economics really."'

why don't they just try to make award winning anime, you know stuff that gets critically acclaimed, it worked for Miyazaki and Ghost on the Shell

>>84280524

This is a joke.

>>84280524
>pandering to the west

it's not different then what they're currently doing, except it's a much greater risk

>every relevant anime director complains about modern anime
>/a/: he doesn't know what he's talking about! We are true fans! Anime is even better now!
Deal with it. Anime is shit now.

>>84280004
>And the cure is Kubo.

In all seriousness, I'd love to hear Kubo's opinions on the subject. I mean, we can guess based on what he's shown in his own work, but how much of that has been conscious reaction and how much is just that being the age he is it was impossible to NOT confront Eva would be interesting to learn.

>>84279962
This.

Good thing I only read manga.

>>84281091
Kubo is a mangaka though. Even if his manga are adapted for anime, he personally is no player on the field.

>>84281294

Manga is comparatively vibrant, though the market dominance of One Piece is disgusting.

>>84279476 (OP)
>To put it in concrete terms, ever since Eva was a hit, within the anime industry things have come to be judged based not on the quality of the work but on the amount of sales.
That's the biggest piece of bullshit I've read all week.

>>84280785
>every relevant anime director complains about modern anime
[citation needed]

>>84281339
sup newfag

no one care about BD/DVD sales in 80s and 90s

>>84279476 (OP) (OP)
Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

>>84281541
Except for OVA.

>>84281588
Did you just really write (OP) after the link? Are you also manually entering Anonymous into the name field?

>>84281699(You)
FAg

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>>84279476 (OP)

>As a result, [the industry] has deserted the middle and high school students who are supposed to be the primary audience, and there has been an overflow of 「moe」 anime directed towards obsessive fans in their 30s who spend money, centered around late-night broadcasts.

And amen to that.

Back then anime was for children, now is for manchildren. Nothing changed. It was always a very inferior medium mostly for dumb, immature people.

>>84281316

Sure, but I mean as an artist, not a businessman.

The troubling part about Evangelion isn't its fiscal success, it's that it's still viewed as "the last word" in anime. When was the last time a series came out that meant something? What was the last show you saw that TRIED to mean something? Did it actually have something to say, or was it just making one as a stylistic choice because Eva did it?

That's Kubo's relevance to the conversation: There've been footnotes and reactions, but he's the first identifiable mainstream artist in anime and manga that's Post-Eva. His manga has a voice, and it's a distinctly 21st Century one.

And yes, I wish I could pick a more respectable example too. There just doesn't seem to be one.

>>84282019
>That's Kubo's relevance to the conversation: There've been footnotes and reactions, but he's the first identifiable mainstream artist in anime and manga that's Post-Eva. His manga has a voice, and it's a distinctly 21st Century one.

Are you hearing yourself right now?

>>84281541
Why would they care about a formats that weren't even in use then?

Home video sales (which were primarily VHS and Laserdics in the 80s and 90s) were not as important because most anime operated on a different business model that late night anime of today. They sold toys, commercials and manga and most aired during the mornings, afternoon and primetime. Late night anime didn't become a big thing until the very late 90s. Modern late night anime are just working on the same business model that developed in the 80s, selling home video to the diehard anime fans. The only difference is that they weren't on TV. They were OVAs instead.

Differences in business models are NOT differences in the importance of money. Anime has been commercialized ever since it aired on TV when they used Astro Boy to sell stickers. I have an old Miyazaki article from the 80s where he complains about TV anime (which started with Astro Boy) being the death of anime, turning it into a low-quality disposable product, and name-dropping stuff like Space Battleship Yamato as primary contributors to this culture.

The idea that anime became about money post-Eva is ASININE. The idea that there's something more genuine about anime aimed towards high schoolers and children is ASININE. Anyone suggesting this is the case is speaking out of nostalgia, not facts.

I have invested FAR more into this topic than you have. Don't you dare call me a "newfag", child.

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>>84282019
>When was the last time a series came out that meant something?
2011

>>84282019
>but he's the first identifiable mainstream artist in anime and manga that's Post-Eva
No.
Especially not in manga, which isn't affected NEARLY as much as anime, due it costs and more varied demographics.
Step outside the shounen genre, and Kubo becomes another mediocre writer/artist that has little originality.

How much semen does it fit inside an Asuka?

>>84282139

Yes. I'm discussing philosophical stagnation in anime. Why?

Anyone in this thread that starts talking about manga in context to >>84279476 (OP)
is stupid.
Manga is still varied, do to a much larger consumer base, ease of entry and low cost of production.

>>84282209
Are you implying that there was anything philosophically special about Eva? Are you implying that anime has EVER been very philosophical, to the extent where it would even be reasonable to suggest it's "stagnating"? In either case you're stupid.

>Otsuki
OK who is this autistic retard who obviously like all autists has no idea about money

>>84282250
Apparently he's a producer who worked on Eva.

>>84282165
Madoka as a franchise is important because of how it impacted the market

Madoka as a series means absolutely nothing because it did nothing new or innovative

it's like the Avatar of anime

>>84282331
I give you a 4/10, that's the best I can do.

HAYAO MIYAZAKI IN 1987:

> Today, I can't talk about our business without some bitterness. Compared to several works in the 1950s which inspired me, we in the 1980s make animation as if it's an in-flight meal served on a Jumbo Jet. Mass production has changed the situation. The true emotion and feeling that should be carried through have been replaced by a bluff, neurosis, or teasing. The craft that we should put our love into has been worn down in the piecework production system. I hate the abbreviation anime because I can't help but think that the word symbolizes the desolation (of Japanese animation).

HAYAO MIYAZAKI IN 1991:

>But regrettably, others making animated cartoons seem to be different. They insist, "This is the trend... This is likely to be a hit..." I can't engage myself in such an inhuman task as making animated cartoons just to produce such things. To produce a decent animated cartoon requires anywhere from a year to a year and a half, and our private lives go out the window during this period. Of course, we could make cartoons while still taking our vacations, but that would be reflected in their quality. Works of art are created by those who are prepared to go the limit. We're not interested in anything else.

http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/interviews/aboutanime.html
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/interviews/creativity.html

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>>84282395
But he's right. Madoka wasn't original: Just Magical girls with darkness and sadness.

>>84282409
Hehe, I wonder what he thinks about modern industry when it's even worse than back then.

>>84282245

When a series becomes famous for its viewpoint, and thanks to that fame, the viewpoint becomes synonymous with meaningfulness and is cloned for 20 years, that's a problem.

>Are you implying that anime has EVER been very philosophical?

No more than any other mirror of culture.

>>84282478
Implying you were around then to even know how bad it was.

>>84282466
which if you think about it, Sailor Moon, at least the Manga was full of SUFFERING

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Three words
Aku no Hana

Who said creativity is dead.

>>84281959
Your a fool or simply extremely childish if you somehow think that anime is some how better being exclusive to a narrow set of tastes.

Where are all those adult mature masterpieces if you think it's catering to your niche? There aren't any. Just more sol and harem clones with little to redeeming value.

>Implying various shounen and shoujo series aimed at young teens and kids don't get made or adapted anymore.

Beezlebub, one piece, sket dance, precure, magi, various high school romances with female leads.

It still gets made, the stuff made for otaku audiences has just had an increase in amount getting produced is all.

>>84282561
This is literal crap
I do hope I'm getting tricked

>>84282572
>implying people give a shit
Otaku don't even read books or watch good films. They don't care about quality.

>>84282409
Tldr they will always talk shit about the current market and industry, regardless of the year.

It's funny how all these guys are railing against Eva for bringing about an era of consumerist moe anime when the whole point of Eva is how much Anno hates otaku culture and hates himself for being an otaku.

>>84282572
>Where are all those adult mature masterpieces if you think it's catering to your niche?
this shit is and never was more popular or profitable.

>>84282629
They read light novels, which are technically books.

>>84282561
Fucking disgusting.

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>>84282704
>light novels

>>84282704
For 6th graders.

>>84282704
Jesus please

>>84282704
Well yeah. The shittiest form of books. Even young-adult fiction is more creative than their imouto crap.

>>84282614
>>84282741
No one said originality = Good.

>>84282704
My Little Sister Is Secretly An Alien And The President of The United States Who Is Also In Love With Me!

>>84280332
Preach it, brother. I think /co/ has it worse, though. Cape comics have shown on many occasions that even if it's the same setting and characters there can be a wide variety of stories and themes brought up with them, yet almost all of it is same shit different hero. And don't even get me started on cartoons, holy shit.

>>84282796
But it is not even original

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>>84282018
3edgy

>>84279903
It means when those high schoolers and the current otaku die off, there won't be a market for anime anymore because no one is interested.
You don't just plunge head first into a high powerlevel. You have to start off slow with entry level shonen and end at moe. Very few people can stomach starting off with moe and nothing but moe and the sales will show in a decade.

>>84282697
That's kinda the point. Anime divided into 2 sects after Eva.
1. Those who held hope that anime would continue to mature into an art form
2. Otaku subculture who has only plunged the anime industry into a gigantic circle jerk.

>hurr moe is unoriginal/stagnant and will lead to people getting sick of it and less sales
meanwhile in reality this isn't happening at all

>>84282165
This scene was so dumb. "Oh no, Madoka! Here come the consequences for your actions, which have been shown to be a major theme throughout this entire series! The fact that everything you do has a consequence!"

"YEAH WHATEVER LET ME SHOOT IT WITH MY LASERS!"

>>84279476 (OP)
So basically once upon a time came out an anime so awesome every anime creator despaired, lost hope of making anything even remotely as good and decided to make money by selling tits. Sounds about right.

>>84282756
>>84282758
>>84282776
>>84282784

I never said they were good books. Quite frankly the format makes my eyes feel like bleeding.

Do the obsessive fans account for the majority of anime not for kids and teens being adaptations of LNs and VNs?

>>84282880
You really have no grasp of the industry if you think that basically the same man children are the main supporters of the industry and that is sustainable

>>84282835
Right? Also I had somebody IRL tell me that Aku no Hana was departing from the "moe" aesthetic. Fucking, run of the mill anime faces, which have been a part of every single fucking genre ever, are now "moe faces"? Fucking seriously? It's just bad rotoscoping, people!

Fuck that show, seriously. People now think rotoscoping his inherently bad and that's just scraping the surface.

>>84282951
Nah, plenty of anime far better than eva. Just the industry is full of idiots who won't say it or accept it because of its reputation and fear of fanboy backlash.

>>84282986
Define "sustainable."

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>>84282816
>>84282704

>another "it was better before" rant by some outdated director trying to justify his lack of talent

Stop the fucking presses

>market changes
>OH NO IT'S THE END OF ANIME EVERYBODY IT'S ALL EVA'S FAULT
learn2economics
markets shift all the time
it's called a format change
since home video became hugely more accessible in the 90s, the market has shifted focus from TV spots and theatrical showings to (then) tapes and DVDs, and in present day, digital download and Blu-Ray
blaming this on any studio or project is bullshit
people are just rectum-flustered that their anime isn't as popular as Evangelion

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>anime is doomed because in 40 years all the moefags will be dead and nobody will be left to buy anime!

>>84283021
>>84282951
I thought he was saying that Eva sold well and revived the anime industry, but because of that people only view sales as a measure of quality and success.

>>84282696

If that was the point, Eva failed terribly.

>>84283034
As in, like OP said
>Otaku die off, get old, whatever, no longer able to into moe anime
>Highschoolers, due to an exclusive market of moe that doesn't appeal to them, never get into anime
>because no newblood into anime, market shrivels up and shrinks
>anime eventually dies

>>84283036
It's actually from a producer on Eva. And this quote is from 2006.

>>84279476 (OP)
So wait, because Eva was a great and smart anime for adults, they decided to make shit and stupid anime for adults. Seems to me the problem isn't that they're making anime for adults, the problem is that they're making shit anime for adults. Eva is still going strong 20 years later and Haruhi fad is already going away.

>>84283021
Like what?

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>>84283097
>Eva was a great and smart anime for adults

>If so many damn anime directors realize how shitty anime is becoming and hate moe garbage why is nothing changing?
Because even if they do good animes, if it doesnt sell, they'll go bankrupt.

The best hope for jap animation is to reach out to non-teenager western audience, like giblhi or GitS did.

>>84283120
Compared to Haruhi it's a fucking masterpiece.

>>84283158
Not at all.

>>84282019
>When was the last time a series came out that meant something? What was the last show you saw that TRIED to mean something?

Id called you a casualfag who hasn't seen shows besides the ones that aired on AS but even then you must have seen Paranoia Agent or GitS. A more recent show is Penguindrum. Seriously, this comment is full on delusional.

Evangelion is shit and NIPPONESE HONOR stops directors/writers from saying "it's shit" so they put it on a pedestal and keep adding to its' undeserved reputation. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

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I-Is there someone else who just watches what's airing and doesn't give a shit?

>>84283313
I do that for the most part
I mean, I have my favorites
but I really don't care about the whole "declining market" shit that's been going around for the better part of a decade

>>84283195
Cool argument brah

>>84283313
Most people here do. Only idiots cry about the industry when nobody here buys shit anyway. It's pointless. Japan's problem, if anime dies or lives it will be because of japanese people. Nobody wants to listen to some retard on /a/'s "expert business" opinion.

>>84283313
Depends
When I like the setting I don't mind watching a shit show
I actually enjoyed Fam the silver wing

>>84283205
>Paranoia Agent or GitS
>came out a decade ago
>recent
Alright.

>>84283205
>Penguindrum
It was shit compared to Utena though.

>>84283205
>Penguindrum

Tried too hard.

>>84283426
See, you are the problem. You have to compare some new show to some crap from the 90s for no reason. Get over it.

>>84283313
I only watch what piques my interest, and that's basically nothing. So I just work on my backlog, which gets bigger the more I work on it.

>>84283449
>for no reason
Except those two shows are made by the same director with pretty much the same themes. And the one from the 90s was better. That says a lot.

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Video Games must avoid Anime's mistakes, CyberConnect2 CEO states
>As the conversation turned to anime and manga, Matsuyama revealed that he reads "60 books a month," mentioning Jump and Shingeki no Kyojin, and the quality of Kodansha's publications. When asked about anime's declining popularity in the US, Matsuyama replied:

>"Yeah. That's because it's not as mainstream as it used to be. They're making it for a particular audience. I think that's why. I watch a lot of anime but it's for the techniques, not as entertainment. As a product, I think it's going downhill. The general audience won't find those interesting. It's impossible to figure out what the target audience is for Mawaru Penguindrum. Same goes for Madoka Magica. It's for a very core audience like us, who enjoy them. The video game industry has to make sure they don't make the same mistake."

>>84283090
You're making some very stupid implications.

Plenty of anime are still being made for children. A decrease in anime being made for children doesn't have much of an impact on "newblood." Anime doesn't need to be flooded with children's anime for it to satisfy its child audience.

Children aren't into anime as much as they used to. This isn't a result of less anime being made for them. LESS ANIME IS MADE FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE LESS INTERESTED IN IT.

>>84283505
>same director
so?
>same themes
wrong they had fuck all in common
>And the one from the 90s was better
Your worthless opinion and nostalgia.
>That says a lot.
Yes, about you.

>>84282019
>His manga has a voice
Are you kidding me? Not OP, not even Naruto, BLEACH has a voice? Fuck you kid, just fuck you.

>>84283090
>Interest in moe wains
>Market shrinks
>Something new becomes popular
>Market rebuilds around that

Things go in and out of popularity. And the industry has always been based around sales and ratings. Remember when toyline based mecha was popular? Why do you think gundam X and the original gundam series got the ax? They had poor ratings.

And to everyone saying that the industry will die because there's no entry level stuff anymore, there is still a ton of adaptations and series aimed at that middle school early teen market. There are a couple airing this season in fact.

>>84283544
>so?
So I'm comparing them. Is that so terrible - comparing two anime made by the same director?

>Your worthless opinion and nostalgia
No shit, you really do think Penguins are better than Utena. I'm out, fuck you.

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>>84282165

>>84283608
Not the same guy.

Utena was mediocre at best.

While Penguindrum made NO SENSE. It was still more enjoyable than Utena, which was repetitive as shit.

>>84283523
Well, the video game industry is already fucked anyway.

Stopped caring a long time ago about the health of the industry. As long as I can watch what I like every season, I could give two fucks.

>>84283523
>60 books a month
>books
>manga
Sure, pal, you READ BOOKS. It's not like you read 12 manga chapters a day, nah, you read TWO BOOKS A DAY.

>>84283644
>As long as I can watch what I like every season, I could give two fucks.
This.

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>>84283631
2deep4u?

>>84283523
>games have to stay casual or they're fucked
What an intredasting opinion.

>>84283523
>everything has to appeal to lowest common denominator
nah, fuck that asshole

>>84283631
>Utena was mediocre
Do you expect me just to agree with you? I don't think it's mediocre, I think it was pretty amazing.

>>84283631
>I have shit taste

>>84283644
>As long as I can watch what I like every season, I could give two fucks.
See the problem is most of us can't watch what we like because what we like isn't being made.

>>84283625
I remember a thread on /a/ that basically agreed that Haruhi was the most influential anime of the 00 decade. They weren't arguing for its quality, just how much it affected the industry.

>>84283754
>most of us
nigga please, you are the minority

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>>84283523
>CyberConnect2
Constant work on pic related was probably when it started to sink-in regarding what the average Japanese customer wants, even though it's not what the industry needs

And on that subject, there are probably people going "FINALLY, now David can drop this HIDEOUS Western trash and get to Neptunia"

>>84282539
I'm still not buying the idea that the anime was less mature then the manga though. Really, the anime had far more emotionally and morally ambiguous subplots and better developed its characters and conflicts. The manga has shit go down harder on a larger scale, but isn't as well written and doesn't develop things enough to make that more meaningful. Either way, the things the characters do which actually lead to the suffering are still much more interesting in Sailor Moon then Madoka.

>>84283754

Then move on.

Why stick to watching something you no longer enjoy?

>>84283798
Eh, Sailor Moon was anime for teen girls. It wasn't deep or anything. Comparing it to Madoka is kinda silly.

>>84283754
>most of us
You are not "Most of".

>because what we like isn't being made.
What kind of show are you looking for?

>>84283912
yeah, madoka was so deep because the enemy fed on their angst, this is totally original and unlike what happens in every precure episode

>>84283782
This is unfortunately true, people with shit taste and shit brains will always outnumber those who don't have shit taste and non-shit brains.

>>84283981
Deep romance. Bonus points for shy girls

>>84283523
>It's impossible to figure out what the target audience is for Mawaru Penguindrum.
Joseibait.

>Same goes for Madoka Magica.
Madoka is "lets write something interisting". So thats a big fallancy to call it a potential audience aim.

>>84283725
>>84283689
He could be saying "everything is boring, so it might not be good".

>>84284011
Aw, look at the little boy who really believes everyone else but him is wrong

>>84283981
>implying I can't say "most of us" without stating who "us" is and be correct in 100% of cases
You're just not part of "us".

>>84284014
That's a hard genre to nail in general. A decent one, much less good, only comes around once in a while.

>>84284000
Madoka was well made. It wasn't monster of the week for 20 episodes. Monster of the week is the worst formula ever. It's boring, derivative and dull. Especially in Japanese shows (monster of the week in The X-Files was amazing).

>>84284068
Obviously not since I didn't say "I'm the only one with good taste, everyone else is shit".

There's a relatively big number of people with good taste and good brains, but the number is dwarfed compared to the hordes of people with shit taste and shit for brains. It's a fact of life.

>>84284167
>it's a fact of life
Only when you're a child who doesn't understand the concept of opinion.

>>84284185
There are opinions that lead to shit, and opinions that don't. Not all opinions are not equal.

Even a child would be aware of this.

>>84284145
>Madoka was well made.
I don't think so, that's just your opinion.
>Monster of the week is the worst formula ever. It's boring, derivative and dull.
I don't think so, that's just your opinion.

I'd sooner rewatch Gaogaigar, Heartcatch Precure or Cardcaptor Sakura than Madoka.

>>84284255
What constitutes "shit" is an opinion.

You are going in circles.

Ignored.

>>84282886
You didn't get the point of this whole episode.

The point of this whole episode was to blast away the "trapped by consequences" theme.

And here, you're fucking complaining that the episode made to subvert its theme is actually subverting its theme.

I'm losing a little hope for humanity right now.

>>84284185
Tell me about the word "Lowest common determinator".

>>84283912
>Comparing it to Madoka is kinda silly.

In what way is Madoka more deep then Sailor Moon? If anything Madoka simplifies things further by reducing things to cute girls suffering because of something as abstract as entropy instead of pitting a large cast of characters with differing viewpoints against each other. There are plenty of genuinely chilling moments in SM.

>>84284264
Well, it's not only my opinion. I don't want to use argument from authority, but you know... Madowa was pretty well received.

>>84284383
>it's not only my opinion
Neither is my opinion mine alone.
> I don't want to use argument from authority
Good, because you don't have one. Just like I don't.
>you know... Madowa was pretty well received.
Just like every show I mentioned was.

>>84282331
> duhhh any story ever written is either one of the 7 famous plots of a small variation

Please, Madoka was nothing completely new, was a variation that had a perfect execution

>>84284345
It's not a word--it's three words.
It's a buzzterm used by people most often to describe things they feel that target people whom they don't like, or attempt to target everyone.

>>84284383
I like how in each and every interview I've seen about Madoka, the people being interviewed don't even state as to why it was "great".
The furthest attempt I've seen was Anno saying that it's a cool idea to make QB the way he is, thus cutting costs.

>>84284264
CCS didn't use the monster of the week as plot advancement, it used it as a tertiary story element.

>>84284145
>madoka was well made
hardly, it lacked any sort of cinematic value, It wasn't cleverly directed, it just tried to feign quality with pretentious visuals to fool most uneducated viewers.
secondly, it was too grand for 12 episodes, and because of this just didn't feel right. anyone who says the pacing was good is an imbecile, we're talking about a story that is on a universal scale, and they tell it in only 12 episodes? just no.

>>84284366
It's just well made. The only chilling moment in the first season of SM for me was the ending. You know, power of friendship and killing the evil Queen. And that's mainly because I'm very sentimental I love this clishe.
I don't care about darkness in Madoka. I just like this anime because it has good story, nice, memorable characters, great music and amazing atmosphere. And the atmosphere is the most important thing in film in my opinion.
There is not a single anime as good as Alien, but there certainly are anime with deeper themes than Alien.

>>84284324
The fact that you are weighing your hope on humanity on whether people understand otaku cartoons make me lose hope on humanity

Oh look.

Another shitty /co/ thread about anime and art.

>>84284531
>we're talking about a story that is on a universal scale, and they tell it in only 12 episodes? just no.
I don't see as to why the length of a series has to increase the grander its scale is.

Prove that it has to be that way.

>>84284531
And something like sailor Moon doesn't lack "cinematic value"?

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>>84284291
Being stupid and saying that in your opinion this monster-like looking guy with a bloody knife is not dangerous will lead to you getting butchered. ie it will lead to shit. That's an objective fact, not an opinion.

>MY OPINIONS ARE SHIT? NOOOOO MUH FEELINGS!

>>84284498
>CCS didn't use the monster of the week as plot advancement,
Uhhhh yes it did. Its plot was centered around Sakura capturing Clow cards which they did nearly every episode.

Sm was a trend changing anime that comes once a decade.
Madoka was a hit. It remains to be seen what impact it will have. IMHO I'm not sure it's a game changer.

>>84284645

So, what's your taste then?

Name one 3 good anime.

But isn't this lifestyle exactly what eva was protesting against?

>>84284497
Its can be used that way. Or it can be used to describe fall of quality due ignorant consumers, main juden.

>>84284699
It backfired and fractured the fan base.

>>84284693
Rurouni Kenshin (until the end of Shishio arc)
Ghost in The Shell
Kaiji

>>84279476 (OP)
He doesn't really say why.

>ctrl-f "penguindrum"
Wow, /a/ continually sickens me with how little praise that show gets

It's almost as if /a/ mirrors the problems plaguing the anime industry

>>84284645
That is a prediction. It can be proven true or false. If he doesn't butcher you then it is FALSE. Otherwise it is TRUE.

It is also completely irrelevant since we're aren't talking about what objectively IS or what MAYBE. We're talking about one's classification of something as good or bad, completely dependent on one's PERSONAL criteria for what constitute good and bad. It is not fact. It is not objective. Your view of opinion and fact is fundamentally flawed.

>>84284699
>But isn't this lifestyle exactly what eva was protesting against?

It's funny because Rei and Asuka have become 2 of the most merchandised and fapped to girls in all of anime.

>>84284658
Most of the show as "muh shoujo feels", with the cards only serving the purpose of spicing up episodes and minorly advancing the plot towards the secondary magus plot.

>watch EVA Q
>Asuka actually says "curse of Eva" in the movie

khara confirmed for bro

Find any of the typical tv shows that interviews or spotlights otaku and see how anime is looked at with utter disgust.
The anology that anime is at the point comic book culture was in the 80's - 90's seems apt.

>>84284717
"Lowest common denominator" says NOTHING about a fall in quality. It is only used to describe the audience something is aimed towards, independent of who it used to be aimed towards.

>>84284852
>Kenshin

So much for good taste.

>>84284635
this has nothing to do with sailor moon, Madoka just wasn't directed well, this isn't to say it was directed poorly, it just wasn't anything special like everyone wants to think it is. Visually it looked nice most of the time, but that's only skin deep.
Now, Related to Sailor Moon is Ikuhara, who if you didn't know, directed the 2011 AOTY of Penguindrum, and Revolutionary Girl Utena, both had excellent writing and directing that weren't shallow a la Madoka

>>84284632
it just ISN'T good writing/pacing. it's incredibly hard to form any sort of bond with a character in 3 episodes, and then I'm supposed to care about Mami's death?
>that's just like, you're problem man

no, anyone with any sort of knowledge of writing would blatantly point out how wrong the writing was in Madoka

>>84284869
Penguindrum is not that good.

>>84284925
So it's going to get a surge of popularity among the general public in a few years thanks to big budget movies?

>>84284925
What the hell are you talking about?

There are films and books. I don't understand why so many people complain about anime. Seriously, if you really care about intellectual entertainment AND you watch only anime and read manga then you're a fucking idiot. Sorry, but they are both very low in terms of quality.
If you watch anime only for girls, then you're still an idiot but for different reasons. Overall people who limit themselves only to video games/anime are pretty dumb.

>Blaming eva

Ironically the post eva era is the best era for anime. 1995-200x was the golden age of anime.

>>84284995
Umm no how about another crash that guts the industry forcing creators to find different avenues to survive.

>>84285103
>another crash
And when did anime crash previously?

>>84284995
No first come the cartoon adaptions that children grow u

Wait a second

>>84285163
>Implying cartoon adaptations of comic books hadn't been around in the west since the 70's.

>>84284984
>it just wasn't anything special
Compared to most anime? It was done pretty well.
>directed the 2011 AOTY of Penguindrum
Penguindrum was a mess.
>and then I'm supposed to care about Mami's death
Nope. You missed the point. Mami death is there to show that magical girls world is really dangerous.

Go read aboutcomic book industry and how the bubble was propped up by a core group of fans that bought multiple copies of the same issue week after week leading to a glut of junk being released causing a crash that destroyed the comic book industry forcing them to move away from the core.

>>84285103

Already happening:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/17124.html

>"the driving force behind Toei’s desire to create anime products that will do well overseas, is the decline of the number of anime programs and a slowdown in sales of anime DVDs in Japan."

>>84285064
uguu

>>84284995
Considering the recent trend towards making more anime movies, that's actually a possibility.

>>84284871
You'd be correct, if only the PERSONAL criteria of a trillion people didn't transform into a driving force for the industry.

The fundamental point lies in what people want from anime and from themselves. A majority of anime fans nowadays -I don't think it's be erroneous to say this- are people who choose to be completely useless and/or recluses who've given up even on wanting their minds being stimulated by the original ideas/worlds or different worldviews and philosophy that could be presented to them. Instead they crave an unending supply of the same fantasy/fantasies, and the capitalist system obeying the demands offers that unending stream.
It's pathetic. At least in the '80s people weren't afraid to throw money away for new shit to be made, independent of any of the established trends and of any concern for the money they'd get in return.

>>84284984
>it's incredibly hard to form any sort of bond with a character in 3 episodes
But it's possible, or not impossible, in other words.

3 episodes is 60 to 90 minutes.
A feature movie is 90 minutes long and can manage to make you care.
Hell, even some shorts (~ 5-20 minutes) like La maison en petits cubes or Voices of a Distant Star manage this.

It is not important how long the movie is, especially if the focus is somewhere different. A romance film utilizes much more time on character development than an action movie and those times can differ not only inter- but also intra-genre.
Thinking that it's impossible to care for a character that didn't have much screentime is a narrow and simplistic view... and wrong.

>>84285206
>Penguindrum was a mess
This is what idiots actually think

>>84285390
>that's actually a possibility.

It's already happening:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12947.html

>"Viz Media announced that it has opened a wholly owned subsidiary, Viz Productions, “to produce and license live-action theatrical film and TV products based on animated and manga series.”

>>84284547
>The only chilling moment in the first season of SM for me was the ending. You know, power of friendship and killing the evil Queen.

Ahh, you see I hated that part more then anything, and for the exact same reasons I was disappointed in most of Madoka. You have character placed in inescapable situations and killed off in ways designed to make you feel sad in order to set up an ending where the MC wins because of magical wishing/the power of hope which resets everything.

This disappoints me compared to things involving characters with motivations fundamentally and understandably counter to each other, such as Naru's love subplot, Usagi's manga suicide, Pluto's sacrifice, Haruka and Michiru rejecting the instinct to protect love, Hotaru coming to terms with her role as the Messiah of Silence and her love of her brainwashed father etc.

>>84285200
And several generations growing up with their lot of those adaptions helped greatly in the transition of comics into mainstream culture

>>84285391

What do you expect? Look at the people who purchase anime in japan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r_5I23PmFE

>>84285206
>Nope. You missed the point. Mami death is there to show that magical girls world is really dangerous.
gee, I didn't know attacking mosters was dangerous, that's redundant as fuck
>Penguindrum was a mess.
Penguindrum was something NEW and CREATIVE, I value those much more than what ever Madoka offered, it's your own fault for not enjoying Penguindrum
>Compared to most anime? It was done pretty well
if you look at that "1%" of actual good anime Madoka really, really isn't that special of a snow flake

>>84285422
which proves further the writing is Madoka wasn't good

>>84285485
>Usagi's manga suicide

How and why does that happen? Didn't read the manga.

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I'm not even worried. Anime will be just fine. If anything does goes wrong, I have a backlog to las years anyway.

>>84285489
>transition of comics into mainstream culture

Since when?

>>84279476 (OP)
>As a result, [the industry] has deserted the middle and high school students who are supposed to be the primary audience
So they're complaining that anime does NOT cater to the Call of Duty audience, is that it?

>>84285489
It helped spiderman.

>>84285571
Spiderman and ironman. And transformers.

>>84285555
You're totally missing the point of Mami's death.

It wasn't really supposed to make you sad, it was just supposed to show you that the world of magical girls is freaking dangerous and that nobody is safe with plot armour.

>>84285391
No, I am correct and you are wrong.

Opinions are opinions. Their validity, their quality is not impacted by the amount of or the type of people who hold them. Again, you are wrong. You don't understand what an opinion is.

>>84285609
>Spiderman and ironman. And transformers.

Haven't effected comic book sales.

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>>84285594
Don't tell me you are comparing a Video game to a cartoon.

>>84285555
>Penguindrum was something NEW and CREATIVE, I value those much more than what ever Madoka offered, it's your own fault for not enjoying Penguindrum
Aku no Hana is something NEW and CREATIVE, et cetera.

Being creative doesn't make something good, it just makes it creative.

>>84285616
It actually works better towards that with how abrupt and non-dramatic it was how suddenly she got killed. No real build up, not person screaming as the witch came at her.

Only CHOMP

And then headless jokes.

>>84285338
> is the decline of the number of anime programs
Sure sounds like a bubble there.

If they're already reducing the number of shows produced to what the domestic market can handle, there's no problem.

>>84285338
Why would lower DVD sales for Toei be relevant?

Why would lower sales or programs indicate an impeding crash Does lower ticket sales for the box office, or lower ratings on TV in general indicate that hollywood is headed for a crash?

Why are you posting literally three year old news? DVD/BD sales were actually at their strongest they'd ever been for the year of 2010.

Your reasoning is fundamentally STUPID.

>>84285705

But, they want more money.

>>84285625
>disregard the entire argumentation
>NO I AM RITE U R RONG :--------DDDDDD ebin
OK kid.

>>84285538
Yeah I know. There isn't much to do about it either, unless of course studios said no to that sort of pandering. But like I said, money and happy merchantism. Things will probably be different in 15-30 years though, if the situation of comics is any indication. The advantage anime/manga would have in that case would be the fact that it's not bound by 2 gigantic powerhouses (DC and Marvel in murika) and could potentially lead into more creativity.

>>84285616
again, Mami's death means nothing, it's so incredibly redundant, of course fighting it dangerous, this doesn't need reinforced

>>84285646
Aku no Hana is an adaptation using animation techniques that have existed for almost a 100 years, how is it in any way original?

>>84285680
exactly, it was nothing more than cheap shock value to generate "hype", it's no different than the shit CG pulled

>>84285732
Calm the fuck down. I was posting articles about the fact that they want live action movies being made. I never said anything about a crash.

>>84285680
>It actually works better towards that with how abrupt and non-dramatic it was how suddenly she got killed.
This.

No 5 minute long "I'm gonna sacrifice myself for you!" scene, no parting, no purpose, just a moment of carelessness and you're dead, gone, like in a real war when one moment you're in the trench, talking with your friend about how to proceed and the next moment he's just... gone, having gotten a silent bullet through the head.

Isn't rental still quite a viable market in japan?

As far as i know nothing like netflix has really taken hold there.

>>84285792
>exactly, it was nothing more than cheap shock value to generate "hype", it's no different than the shit CG pulled
I was under the impression that the anon you're responding to liked the way Mami's death was handled.

>>84285732
>Why would lower sales or programs indicate an impeding crash

Is this a serious question or are you retarded?

>>84285561
At the end of the first saga (Dark Kingdom), Usagi realises that since Queen Beryl has been defeated (Minako stabbed her with the Moon blade) and Prince Endymion is still under Metalia's control there is nothing she can do but kill him or be killed. After stabbing him and left to face Metalia alone she is left in such a state of despair that she decides to kill herself, as the only hope she has is that they might live again in another life.

>>84285792
>exactly, it was nothing more than cheap shock value to generate "hype"
It had a purpose and it worked.

I don't see how it is "cheap" shock value.

>>84285792
>how is it in any way original?
It utilizes these ancient animation techniques in anime.

I'm pretty sure Penguindrum utilizes themes that have existed for 2000 or more years, how is it any original? Because they haven't been used (much) in anime yet.

>>84279476 (OP)
I don't understand where he makes the link from Evangelion to moe being popular.

>>84285778
Your argument is fundamentally stupid. You are attempting to relate the quality of an opinion to your perception of the people who hold it and your OPINION that their opinions will lead to in your OPINION negative consequences. What you argued is fallacious.

Go learn some argument basics before embarrassing yourself.

FACT: Something that is objectively true, independent of any observer. 1 + 1 = 2 is a fact.
OPINION: Something that is dependent on personal criteria. Blue is the best color is an opinion.

You are wrong. I have nothing more to say to you. Ignored, permanently.

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>>84285638
>Ruggarell !StaIqxr34U
Don't tell me you expect me to even consider what a subhuman tripfag says.

>>84285908
Interesting. They get come back afterwards though right?

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>>84286005
>"Ignored, permanently."
>also sages out of rage
Look at this big baby.

Welp, no need to elaborate on why you're still retarded and nothing you say makes sense I guess since you're ignoring.

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>Eva ruined the industry

TOMINO WAS RIGHT

>>84286096
>no refutation

Penguindrum is literally the worst anime I've ever completed.

I can only assume the people who like it only do, because they think it is "deep" or something. There's not a single positive thing I can say about it.

Wait no, I can. The first OP was pretty great.

>>84286129
Tomino doesn't argue that it's ruined the industry and his problem with Eva aren't economic. He doesn't like the actual content of it.

>>84285908
Almost sounds like the plot of Fantastic Children.

>>84285792
>of course fighting it dangerous, this doesn't need reinforced

The tone of the show does have to be reinforced, though.

When you watch Sailor Moon or Cardcaptor Sakura you know they're "in danger" but you know that they'll get a scratch on the arm at most and then they'll overcome everything with one attack "because magic"

Unless you started Madoka already having the dark tone and graphic themes spoiled for you And I know you did all you see in front of you is another Magical Girl show with some surreal imagery.
And then it happens, the older sister/mentor character is fucking killed.
That single moment throws you from the safety blanket of a magical girl show into complete uncertainty with what will happen next.

I'm not a part of this argument, nor do I think Madoka was savior of anime or anything, but that moment had a great deal of meaning for people who watch Anime before asking for a recommendation or wanting a complete summary of the plot beforehand.

>>84285792
>of course fighting it dangerous
Not in monster of the week shows. In those shows characters are usually safe until a certain moment. There is longer buildup and we know that something will happen.

>>84286137
>>>/d/

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Does anyone have those chatlogs from the nineties talking about how shit the industry is in the exact same way we bitch about it now? Apparently I've lost them.

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>>84285841
by that very token Gundam Wing must be incredibly well written for every time it showed Leos being killed mercilessly by Heavy Arms stock footage

>>84286170
I know, I'm just playing around.

It still weirds me out that Tomino's opinion on the industry is pretty much "yeah, that's just how it is I guess" rather than "we're making a bunch of cartoons that don't have a message or make people productive!"

I can't believe people are seriously arguing that it's a bad thing that anime doesn't cater to middle and high school kids.

>>84286267
>we bitch

You mean crossboard scum, right?

>>84286214
good thing Madoka wasn't a monster of the week show

>>84286326
Some of the best anime ever were aimed at middle and high schoolers.

>>84285869
CORRECT.

I meant that it works well how it was portrayed to show how dangerous the magical girl world is. Nothing overly dramatized or romanticized. Just a quick death that characters need to do a double take before realizing what happened. Shock value or not, it works to show that the magical girl life isn't sunshine and rainbows and if you do die it isn't noble and valiant.

>>84286271
I didn't watch Gandamu Wing yet, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but just because one aspect of writing is good, doesn't mean that every other aspect of writing is good, too.

I don't understand how people can call the ending of Madoka "happy".
>magical girls who turned into witches still die
>Magical girls can be still killed
>the new world isn't that better for normal humans
>Madoks stopped existing as a human being

How is this happy? It fits perfectly to the tone of the show. Madoka tricked Kyubey (which pretty much plays the role of Satan) and destroyed his unfair, malicious system. And that's it.

>>84284699
>People are missing the point of eva? Impossibru

That's terribly common, just like when someone seriously argues that the whole "only teens can pilot these mechas" is retarded and makes no sense. And they aren't trolling

>>84286271
Comparing nameless stock characters to a named main character.

I don't really understand OP.

Eva didn't sell because it was some moe shit. It sold because it was a great story.

Yet they blame it for causing a bunch of anime that is moe centered for the purpose of an easy buck? That makes no sense at all.

If anything, I'd guess Eva would cause studios to take more risks with actual new stories that aren't just adapted version of manga or LNs that are STILL FUCKING ONGOING.

>>84286271
Gundam wing is the best example of political balkanization in anime.

>>84286385
Tesujin 28 and Astro boy are objectively better than madoka, fact

>>84286481
>Eva
>great story
Oh wow

>>84286326
Now anime caters for even less mature crowd. It is a bad thing.

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>>84286446
In gundam wing leos are the grunt suit. They get blown up a lot unless a main character pilots them and gives them plot armor.

And heavyarms had a lot of stock footage.

>>84286481
>Eva didn't sell because it was some moe shit

Rewatch EoE

>>84282409
He is one of the few artists that has the luxury of being able to do his work without thinking about profits, yet he complains.

>>84286465
>magical girls who turned into witches still die
Magic girls can now rest peacefully once they die, instead of living the rest of their life as a manifestation of sadness/anger.

>Magical girls can be still killed
As can anyone, ever.

>the new world isn't that better for normal humans
This leads into movie 3

>Madoks stopped existing as a human being
She was going to die in every other universe anyway. Now she can live as a "guardian" if you will.

>>84282572
Did you just imply that Sketchbook isn't a masterpiece?

>>84286543
None of the Gundams had real good writing, especially when it came to battles involving "grunts" and superspecialmarysue MCs

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>>84286481
>It sold because it was a great story.

Yeah....story.....

Evangelion made moe into a system

>Tsurumaki: I wrote that about three years ago. I feel like the meaning of the word moe has become fragmented in the course of its becoming popular, but I think that, in the beginning, the phenomenon of moe was an act of compensation. I don't think it was the case that moe was [something] depicted in works. I think that moe existed on the side of the audience, and it was an impetus that grew spontaneously within audiences. I feel that recent anime, in trying to incorporate moe [directly] into the works, has come to an unfortunate state.

>It might be that a work like Sailor Moon was self-conscious [of this]. After that, Evangelion made it into a system. From the beginning [Eva] intentionally produced gaps and made the audience fill them. Eva was the most powerful moe anime.

>Nowadays, it's a real mess, with [scenarios?] like, "twelve younger sisters." Insofar as [people] try to make moe because "moe sells," moe disappears. Now the meaning of moe has changed. Only the word is left, and the meaning has been hijacked. [Moe] is no longer moe.

>>84283090
>Implying Japan has any kids

>>84286652
Did you not watch war in the pocket?

>>84286652
>Turn A and 0079 didn't have good writing

you are not a writer.

ITT: everyone has their own definition of moe.

Seriously, if Eva is "moe", then I have no problem with moe.

>>84286749

0079 was shit.

War in the pocket is the only good one. Everything else is generic super robot fanfare with a pretentious plot about war wrapped around it. There's no difference between gundam and your typical generic run of the mill super robot show.

>>84286749
I personally think the 0079 movie compilations had better writing thanks to the added scenes. It made the whole newtypes thing more cohesive and built up to it better.

You left out war in teh pocket, and I thought Gundam X's writing wasn't bad either, it's ending was just rushed and the frost brothers needed a better motivation.