Black and white are the only colors an artist needs.

>>42258898

Large number of weekly comics, so no time for colors. It's also cheaper.

Color is a crutch. Manga is twice as good as western comic books without using color. What I mean is, if baka gaijins could draw well and tell a decent story, like glorious Nipponese mangaka, then they wouldn't need color either.

>>42258998

Also, yeah, there are monthlies too, but the high number of weeklies make the black&white format more accepts for monthlies too.

Also, there are some colored ones, mostly some comics for kids made using anime images.

>>42258898
>Pic related, it's the Red Hulk, I wouldn't be able to tell that in black-and-white.
But we could. That's why we don't stoop down to /co/'s level.

Who needs colors anyway?

>>42258898
in the thumbnail I mistaken him for hellboy

Things would be better if Rulk was impossible.

>>42258957
>Black and white are the only colors an artist needs.

>>42259010
>Color is a crutch. Manga is twice as good as western comic books without using color.

Manga is just cheap and printed on shitty paper so there's point in coloring it. Personally I enjoy my weekly releases, thank you very much.


Also, if you're really from /co/ I'm surprised you even mention Rulk considering how big a shitstorm you guys threw about him.

i'll kil every single one of you, if i can get a Full Color version of vagabond.

Because manga is usually made by 1 person. Often weekly too.

>>42259010
Oh boy, here we go

>>42258898

I would like to see colors, but it would most likely be done western style and just look like cheap shit.

Manga is cheaper to produce if it's in black and white. When you are putting out weekly magazines with 20 or titles in it, the cost of doing it all in color is far to high. That is also why they are printed on poor quality paper.

Imagine how good MLP would be if Oda drew it.

Because.
It's.
Cheap.

>>42259161
>Imagine how good MLP would be if Araki drew it.

Black and white creates a certain look and you can do certain things with it.

I think it's a stylistic choice, and also an economical one.

Think about it. Berserk wouldn't nearly as good in full color. It would lose it's art style. Just as an example.

I think it's mostly time issues. A comic artist has at least a month to draw and color an issue. A manga artist has to do it in a week.

other /co/ poster here

i agree colour is very important!!!!!!!! manga simply cannot match up to a dc comic like batman spiderman the avangers or murdervincable because the america dc comics are in coulore.

>>42259111
>Also, if you're really from /co/ I'm surprised you even mention Rulk considering how big a shitstorm you guys threw about him.

Yes, my /co/mrades did throw quite a fit over him, I don't mind him so much; also, it seemed like a good example, since he looks so much like Hulk.

>>42259088
>Black and white are the only colors an artist needs.

You do know that is an actual thought from some Asian art styles right?

>>42259127
I would kill you too

>>42258898
Why do American comics always have such retarded looking speech bubbles?

>>42259088

....yeah why don't you reply to some SERIOUS answers? and western comic artists could use with some rocket shoved in their ass, and no one bother drawing in the younger crowd

OH WAIT, SCOTT PILGRIM

GREAT SHIT

Ask /co/

>>42258898

Why is he on surver's board? Also, color doesn't matter. Pic related.

also /a/ pls stop posting P&S on /co/ that show is everything wrong with the anime industry and is very offsensive

u can keep posting fast of the north star threads and cromartie hihg threads and jojos bizare adventur tho!!!!!!!

>>42259215
Red and green can be represented with different shades of grey.

>>42259264

I'm colorblind, so I thank the japanese for not discriminating against those of us with disabilities

>>42259264

>notsureiftroll.aac

>>42259204
I see /co/'s tripfags are just as bad as ours.

Is that Red Hulk making a Terry Pratchett reference or was that line from something else originally?

>>42259204
>batman spiderman the avangers or murdervincable because the america dc comics are in coulore.

ok, bye, this thread is full of trolls.

most mangaka are too lazy.

>>42258898
No time, no money and paper so cheap, it would make the print blur, if you tried to use large ammounts of colour. It's a different approach. they pay less per page to get the maximum ammount of story and artwork for a reasonable price. Just like paperbacks and hardcovers.

TV used to be better when it was black&white. Japs simply noticed that fact and make use of it.

>>42259291
>>42259290
LMOA u assmad kid u assmad???????????????????????????????


u assmad

>>42259204

YOU
GO HOME

>>42259204

maximumtrolling.jpg

>>42259323
>JOHN FREEMAN, LEAVE THIS PLACE.jpg

haghaha EPIC videogame machinama tf2 gmod valve refernce i LOVE videogame references scott pilgrim anime obamacare

epic win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno, OP, I kinda like the look of this guy in black and white. Also, I'm pretty sure you could tell the difference between them by shades of gray. Not that color's bad, mind you, and I think it works in most cases for comicbooks and graphic novels, I'm just saying there's nothing all that bad about achromatic comics either.

Manga artists usually draw on very tight schedules.

In any case, I would rather have my manga, or any comic, really, in black and white over American comics' usual shitty coloring. American comics end up horribly muddy and dark, completely masking the details of a good artist's drawings. I absolutely HATE that. It's the reason I prefer stuff like Tin Tin when it comes to Western comics' coloring.
I think this is mostly because American comics have seperate jobs for the artist and the painter (correct me if I'm wrong). When the own artist colors their stuff, it usually turns out better. Especially if they use watercolors or something light, in my opinion.

>>42259352

>obamacare

REPUBLICANS

>>42259371
looks green to me

Guys why do so many books have black and white photographs? Shouldn't the photographer get some more training so they can use color cameras? I have a book here on how to bake various breads from around the world, but who wants to eat grayscale bread???DERRRPPP

I can do without reading something that looks like a dude with photoshop jizzed all over.

Yeah, I read western comics as well, but what OP posted is a prime example.

>>42258898
It is cheaper. Which is why there arent ads inbetween every page.

Manga artists can produce 4 times the amount of material by omitting color

Why do so many comic books have dedicated writers yet the stories still end up as total shit?

>>42259321

>>42259235
I'm sorry, it's just that those two posts caught me off-guard.

>Cheap

For all those that say that it's because it's cheaper. Is that good enough for you? Wouldn't you like to see colors? The comic book industry in the West has to deal with costs too, but that doesn't stop them from using colors.

>Art Style
That's cool, I get that. But...the same one for pretty much every (or all of them? I don't know) that comes out. A different colorist brings a different style to every book. For example, Daken's (Wolverine's son) book has the same penciler, but he recently changed colorists. Personally, I don't like the new guy, everything looks more plastic and he gives Daken a five o'clock shadow.

>>42259481
Western comics generally have a monthly release schedule.
Plenty of time for the photoshop monkeys to wank over as opposed to weekly schedule.

>>42259420
Probably because that's the hulk's natural color, and you have nothing to compare it against. But, even so, it is kinda hard to tell them apart by shade of gray in this picture.

the color version of the akira anga was aweful

>>42259481
>ads every second page
>month wait between issues
>industry homogenization
We have enough problems with moe overtaking the industry, if those are the tradeoffs for color then no thanks. We still have color issues and full color manga but I don't mind black and white as the norm

Why are American comics so bad at portraying movement?

Do they think comics look better when each panel looks as though somebody has just taken a still from a movie?
Do they think the ultimate goal for a comic is to look like a storyboard for some live-action movie?

>>42259504

YOU
YOU THERE
MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY

>>42259531
>I only read mature manga for mature people with mature tastes, like myself

>>42259459
American comics have shitty writing because the writers only care/can only do one liners/punchlines or at best, a speech. With a few notable exceptions, of course, but those are always prestigious novelists.

Actually, now I'm curious, I'd like to read a comic with dialogue, pacing and general storytelling as awesome as Mitsuru Adachi's manga.

I hate colorful shit

>>42259481
>Is that good enough for you? Wouldn't you like to see colors?
Not if it means drastically cutting down on the number of unique/interesting series coming out of Japan. Imagine never seeing blade of the immortal, but having a full-color Bleach. That a good tradeoff for you?

>>42259555
I read One Piece, what now?

>>42259481
>Is that good enough for you?
Yes because there's a chance that it'll get adapted into an anime series. I mean color isn't that important it's not like it directly relates to the sto...
>...six or seven Lantern Corps of the emotional spectrum...
...forget I said anything

Originally it comes from the cheaper printing. Black will always be cheaper than color to produce, at least in the foreseeable future.

Since that original decision, it's taken on its own styles with the use of texture paper and certain styles that lend themselves more to being two-tone than they would color. Similarly, American comics are always produced from the start with color in mind in the styles because of their history.

There are shitty American comics that have nothing but simple line art with single colors in every panel, and there are ones that have amazing inks and color shading everywhere. There are shitty manga where the artists don't draw backgrounds or shade anything and there are ones with amazing detail that could never be done to the same effect in color.

This post brought to you by Responding Seriously to Troll Threads, est. 2003.

>why don't mangas use color?
>ctrl + f
> the heart
You disappoint me /a/

>>42259442
>Manga artists can produce 4 times the amount of material by omitting color

Well, that's why you get yourself some other person for the colors.

>>42259536
I've seen some good "movement portrayal" in comics. Sorry, I don't have any examples saved. Maybe some other /co/mrade can deliver.

>>42258998
52 was weekly and in full color. (also from /co/, thread cross linked) So that's not a good reason. I do respect amazing art that IS in black and white though. I prefer grayscale in most of my drawings aswell.

/co/ Poster

I know the answer because it is cheaper and those japs usually do most of the work by themselves or with like on assistant.

In america it is a assembly line worthy of Henry Ford, we have the luxury of color.


Also hey can you guys please stop posting your shitty anime and manga over on /co/. People keep saying this board is so awful that they have to post on /co/...I don't believe this

>>42259565
not likely since good writers prefer novels and comic books rarely target anything other than teenagers, increasing returns form a large barrier of entry

>>42259517
If it was going to be in black and white, they wouldn't have the character design be so very similar. "Evil hulk" would have an eyepatch and a beard or whatever.

>>42259481

Why are you ignoring the fact that all manga are published on magazines that are 500 pages long with all the other manga? For shounen jump these magazines weekly. Why do you continue to ignore this?

>>42259481
>Is that good enough for you? Wouldn't you like to see colors?

i dont care.

>but that doesn't stop them from using colors.
yeah, because the american market and the japanese market is different.

American comics (that are not superhero bullshit) is only popular between nerds and geeks, superhero comics are popular between nerd, geeks and kids.

Japanese Market is like that, a lot of shit is popular between kids, Nerds and Geeks (otakus) but their material is also popular amoung normalfags (thanks to the all the titles and genre available)

so, why would i care about colour if i can get stuff like this one (pic related) in B/W with only a week between chapters.

is a different market, that is all.

>>42259613
>Well, that's why you get yourself some other person for the colors.

How many artist would give away that control if they didn't have too?

SUDDENLY,

Rulk manga.

>>42259481
>For all those that say that it's because it's cheaper. Is that good enough for you? Wouldn't you like to see colors? The comic book industry in the West has to deal with costs too, but that doesn't stop them from using colors.

You get more pages (hence, more story) from cheaper paper and no colors, and can still get fantastic looking visuals regardless of whether it's B/W or colored.

Also the Western Industry is a mess, especially the Big Two and their bending over backwards for Diamond Distribution Press.

>>42259615
52 was shit and wasn't that split up between different artist

>>42259615
It is a good reason, coming up with one rare exception to the rule does not prove your point. Manga artists are low paid... the whole operation is much cheaper than how we do things in the US. If they increase their overhead, there would be much fewer titles produced.

Everyone in this thread is an enormous faggot.

>>42259481
>Wouldn't you like to see colors
There's only like 3 mangos I would like to see colored.

Vagabond, Berserk and Akira.

To be honest, color would drown out all the detail of the strokes put into manga

>>42259710
It needs more speed lines and stilted dialogue to be a manga

Also there isn't enough fanservice (which distracts the reader from the horrible plot)

Lets see...
This is the process of drawing a manga page. It's a Monthly release, but is one of the most beautiful drawn josei I've seen-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfENoePp36o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKyzS1sGjjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGMo2XPQ0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBC9bA0vKDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1ZnIVlqJTA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCsY2WDbtoI

>>42259790
>Also there isn't enough fanservice
Clearly Rulk is not wearing any pants. What more fanservice do you want? Panty shots?

>>42259686
This. It's pretty simple, for the majority of the working class:

American office-workers have to drive their cars around for a couple hours a day. They cannot read anything during this time.

Japanese ride the subway and have time to read something while standing there. Could be a newspaper, could be manga. This is a whole market segment that does not exist in the US.

>>42259764
I prefer Berserk in black and white.

>>42259615

so how many people worked on it at the same time?

Comic book artists are shit-teir

>>42259764
>berserk
Really? I liked the black and white artstyle. It fits with the whole gritty atomosphere.

>>42259867
Miura's beginning stuff is not nearly as detailed as later work. You'd have to get someone great with colors to do that side of things for him, and I can just imagine Miura clenching his fists in rage at the thought of someone painting over one of his two page spreads.

>>42259926

Not to mention that it's kind of thematically important.

>>42259833
But no one is reacting, the key to manga is there is no subtlety. Someone has to constantly comment on how strong someone is or how advance their techniques are , someone has to voice all their emotions, or in the case of fanservice someone has to turn bright red and get a nose bleed. How else would people know.

>>42259898
According to Wikipedia, there's 5 writers and 8 artists. Oh, and two additional cover artists. I'd say that's a whole hell of a lot more man power than any weekly manga has.

Let's go to /co/ and spam anime and manga

>>42259504
>american hero
>doesn't get shit down and the same villians attack their citys and kill several civilians all the time and get send to prison just to break out again

but seriously, all the reasons were already stated in this thread, its cheap, you can produce more series that way and for some manga like berserk its an artistic choice. You got your answer there

i think both are needed though, some in color, but rarely released, and some in black/white, published weekls or something. It's stupid to fight for one way or another

>>42259977
What manga are you reading? It isn't all like that and a lot of it is appropriate.

>>42259977
Wow another idiot who thinks a hand of shonen represent every single mango

>>42259655
>Why are you ignoring the fact that all manga are published on magazines that are 500 pages long with all the other manga?

Because...I know little about manga and that's why I came /a/ to ask?

Okay, so it's the medium? What about it? Every artist delivers their project with colors done. Print magazine. No problemo.

>>42259686
>is a different market, that is all.
Yeah, I get that. But...do all fans (particularly Western fans) think the same?

>>42259693
>How many artist would give away that control if they didn't have too?
*shrug*
I dunno. But I have noticed that colorists and inkers are becoming a bit more rare and all-in-one artists are becoming more common.

Brian Bolland famously demanded to redo the colors of 'The Killing Joke' for the deluxe edition because he was never happy with the original coloring. The result is quite different and it's a hotly debated topic of which one is better. I personally prefer the re-colored version.

>>42259710
HULK KAWAII, UGUU

>>42259977
Yeah, in kids' series. Not saying they're bad, I personally enjoy One Piece a great deal, but it's obviously aimed at kids. Maybe you should stop being an ignorant douche and read some series geared more towards adults?

Older, succesful manga which are complete should all be done in colour and on better quality paper.

Would sell very well and wouldn't be an overly lengthy or expensive procedure.

>>42259504

>>42260141
You can't just color a work that was originally in black and white. You'd have to alter the images pretty significantly, and probably lose a lot of detail in the process.

>>42260211

I disagree. Computers are wizards.

>>42260141
>Didn't read the coloured Akira
No just no.

Another example of recoloring from 'The Killing Joke', left is re-colored, right is original. Sorry for shitty resolution, can't find better.

Manga is drawn to be, for the most part in Black & White. For some series, the colour would only take away from the experience, rather than adding to it.

Difference between Manga and western comics:

Manga: 3 lines of shitty dialogue per speech bubble

Western pig disgusting: 20 lines of dialogue (which read as if they were written by Joss Whedon's retarded brother) per speech bubble.

Left is original, right is re-colored.

>>42260281
Joss is his own retarded brother.

>>42259926
While I agree, a fully, well coloured version would be awesome too. See pic.

>>42260338
The hatching gets all muddied.

>>42259613
>Well, that's why you get yourself some other person for the colors.

This is an astoundingly naïve question.

Skipping over the already-mentioned problems of printing-cost for weekly series, comes the issue of getting a colorist that is:

A) Good enough to work in stnch with the artist so that he (the artist) is happy with the work. Since you don't draw the same when you work in B&W than when you do lineart for a colorist, this would mean the two would need to work together from the very beginnings of the creative process. If you think this is even remotely feasible in anything but extremely rare situations, you don't know anything about how manga are done.
B) He ALSO needs to work weekly. Except he needs to wrok after EVERYTHING ELSE is already done too. Even if the author has shit planned ahead, there's a shitload of work involved in getting 14~16 pages ready in one week. The colorist would need to eb fast enough to do his job ina fraction of a week since he needs to wiat for mostly everything else to be done.

It says something when writing for Gamesworkshop is a promotion over writing comic books.

OP is retarded. Have you ever tried reading Conan themotherfucking Barbarian in color? Shit sucks.

>>42260368
Still looks awesome.

>>42260066

...printing a 500 pages long magazine in color?

Can you at least imagine how much that would bump up the price tag? There are kids who get their mom to buy a copy of it for them you know, and considering those kids are the target audience.

The mangaka pumps out around 18 pages on a weekly magazine with just one guy and a few numbers of assistants. If I remember correctly it is the mangaka who is paying for the assistants.

>>42260370
>you don't know anything about how manga are done.
Yes, that's why I come with questions to the guys that know.

>this would mean the two would need to work together from the very beginnings of the creative process. If you think this is even remotely feasible in anything but extremely rare situations
>The colorist would need to eb fast enough to do his job ina fraction of a week since he needs to wiat for mostly everything else to be done.

Western art teams seem to manage just fine. It's nowhere near the amazing feat you are portraying it to be.

>>42260487
>Yes, that's why I come with questions to the guys that know.
Yeah but half the time you are just spouting assumptions as fact. Thats not asking questions thats being a douche.

>>42260408
He's writing for novels for Black Library.
Writing fluff for Derphammer 40gay is lower than comics.

>>42260487
25 color pages per two months is lame. I'll take my 70 b/w pages over that any time

>>42260487
Nope. You came to troll. Pure and simple.

>>42260066
>Okay, so it's the medium? What about it? Every artist delivers their project with colors done. Print magazine. No problemo.
Plenty problemo. Production costs would increase significantly. They'd need more assistants, meaning they'd have to pay more salaries.

I mean, these are the guys using shitty yellow recycled paper to ensure minimum costs on paper. They'd have to increase the price => kids can't buy it. Plus, why the fuck would they even consider it? Sure, they have the occasional colored pages, but overall black and white works just fine.

>>42260432

>...printing a 500 pages long magazine in color?

>Can you at least imagine how much that would bump up the price tag?


Aaah, finally something I can understand. Yes, I imagine that would elevate costs considerably.

But, how about this: why not color all the work for the collected volumes? That would even be an extra incentive for fans who bought the magazine to get them.

>>42260140
Berserk is the same, and last time I checked it's not for children. Unless japanease children are a bit weird.

color white is easy to produce and it's sufficient in ink
and it is easy to draw

>>42259481
>That's cool, I get that. But...the same one for pretty much every (or all of them? I don't know) that comes out.

Wait wait, what?

If you need different art styles, you just read different manga. It's very rare for two high-profile series to look even remotely alike (lol Fairy Tail). You would never confuse Wtasuki with Oda with Arakawa with Kubo and so on.

As for changes IN-SERIES. No, I would not want that. Changes in style as the artist gets better are gradual and hard to spot as you read on the go. If I can TELL when the art suddenly changes, there better be an in-story reason for why suddenly everything looks different.

>>42260066
>Yeah, I get that. But...do all fans (particularly Western fans) think the same?

i dont care, and most of the people that enjoy manga dont care, only people that are REALLY new to the medium complain about the lack of colour.

>Okay, so it's the medium? What about it? Every artist delivers their project with colors done. Print magazine. No problemo.

you dont understand, do you?

the magazine cost like 5u$s (or less) they have like 20 titles in there (the work of 20 mangakas + their assistant teams (from 3 to 5 assistants for manga title) and it has over 500 Pages most of the time, so to make the magazine as cheap as possible, they use recicled paper and cheap ink, they pay the mangakas for each chapter and a "special" for every page in colour.

and even magazines like WSJ (that sells over 3M magazine per week) is selling in red numbers.

you know why they dont care about loosing money with the magazine? because they make money out of the Tank sales (little books in B4 format or smaller), but they need the magazine for "publicity" (for the new series, since they leach over the popularity of the most popular series of the magazine).

if they did magazines in full colour, each magazine will not longer cost 5u$s, but it will be a lot more expensive (and it will have even lower sales, so you can see the point, they are already losing money with the magazine, if they add full colour, they will lose a lot more)

and the same goes with the Tanks, that are little book with some colour pages in some cases (8 pages, no more), each tank has between 168 to 188 pages per book, and the cost is between 410Yens to 700Yens the most expensives.

>>42260580
Some of the stilted feel may be because it is translated.

>>42260487

>Western art teams seem to manage just fine. It's nowhere near the amazing feat you are portraying it to be.

Yes, and Western Teams are larger, are paid better, have more time, and the art style is drawn considering that it'll be coloured.

>>42260639

see the difference? there are different markets, american comics can be expensives since the "CORE" market of american comics will still buy it, even if is expensive (32 colour pages each month for what? 4 u$s? i can get a full 188 volume of a japanese manga with the same money).

japanese market can't alow themself to be "too expensive", since even if there are a lot of Otakus that will still buy manga no matter how expensive it is, the normalfags DO CARE about the price of each manga.

see the FUCKING DIFFERENCE!

For manga I don't mind the black and white art.

But for doujins, I kinda like any color pages.

Pic related, it's a long full color doujinshi.

>>42260559
>25 color pages per two months is lame. I'll take my 70 b/w pages over that any time
It's closer to 30 pages and it's every month, not two.

>>42260572
>Nope. You came to troll. Pure and simple.
Then what the fuck are you doing reading this thread and even responding?

>>42260663

>Yes, and Western Teams are larger, are paid better, have more time, and the art style is drawn considering that it'll be coloured.

Sounds like manga artists get exploited big time. Shit must suck.

>>42260592
black ink adds character, variety, plot and evolves with time

Left or Right?

Most of the time, to be honest, I don't even look carefully at the drawings anyway. It's all about what you are reading.

OP a underage

>>42260777
Left. I don't like the coloring there.

>>42260738
>Sounds like manga artists get exploited big time. Shit must suck.
I think most get worked to death, but the ones who catch the publics attention do very well because they usually own their IP.

>>42260738
20 pages is considered short, weekly serials in popular magazines tend to do at least 26 pages, 52 per double issue.

Some manga however, (like berserk) only release a chapter once in a blue moon

>>42260820
>Some manga however, (like berserk) only release a chapter once in a blue moon
He releases the same amount as always only in batches instead of bimonthly.

>>42260738
>Shit must suck.
Shit does suck. The terms for them are absolutely terrible. The upper tier of popular mangaka may be able to make a pretty good living off of it, but I think most of them are struggling to get by. The reason publishing companies have shut down online manga reading sites is less that they want to spare the feelings and effort of the mangaka like they claim, and more that they don't want their loyal grunts to realize they could put shit up on the internet and earn an infinite amount more.

>>42260579
>why not color all the work for the collected volumes? That would even be an extra incentive for fans who bought the magazine to get them.

First, you are still working under the assumption that color is inherently a good thing all the time for every style.

For instance, I think Kubo is a lazy hack, but the few images of Hueco Mundo that aren't just lazy non-backgrounds would look a lot less impressive if Ichigo's orange hair were just flaring up against the colourless wasteland.

And again, not everything is done to be colored. Manga artists do a lot of shit to work with the fact that they are in B&W. You can't just slap color on it and expect everything to work smoothly, this shit needs to be planned from the start.

>>42260487
>Western art teams seem to manage just fine. It's nowhere near the amazing feat you are portraying it to be.

Except the way a manga and comic begin are completely different, you can't compare the two.

Manga series, baring RARE exceptions by known big shots, are basically "allowed" to run. An artist craps out something the editors like, and they start serialization. If they do good, great. If not, they get canned. There is no infraestructure in place designed to support the series, it's the contrary. You perform, or you got to hell. They get an editor and IF THEY ARE LUCKY, a/an assitant(s) that they need to pay off their own pocket.

You need to remmeber, nobody has a premade character to work with. Everything starts from zero. Companies don't hire So and So to make them a story about This and That. There's no certainty or safety cushion like knowing you are working with a beloved character. They need to build every franchise from the ground, completely. And there are hundreds of such fresh starts every year.

Lots of pages without color

Or

Minimum amount of pages with color

Pick one.

>>42260879
Does japan have independent web comics?

>>42260907

>wat

Depends on the series. Art work isn't as important in some series as it is in others. Some of them have "terrible" art work, but amazing stories.

>>42260738

You know you might as well just read bakuman, a manga about 2 kids trying to get serialized in a real weekly manga magazine. It involves manga idea brainstorming, how the magazine is run, the relationship between editor and the mangaka, how mangaka are paid etc

A lot of people are educated in this subject because of this manga

>>42260639
this!

DIFFERENT FUCKING MARKETS!

the driven force of american comics are the nerds that love superhero bullshit, the driven force of the japanese market are not the otakus (they are the driven force of anime, not manga) but the normalfags.

>>42260777

Right pic is pretty good, an improvement on the grayscale. The addition of one more color, in the right context, gives it more impact

>>42260530
>Yeah but half the time you are just spouting assumptions as fact. Thats not asking questions thats being a douche.
Did I hurt your feelings, kid? Just call me out on where I'm wrong and that's it.

>>42260782
>I don't even look carefully at the drawings anyway. It's all about what you are reading.
wat

>>42260894
>First, you are still working under the assumption that color is inherently a good thing all the time for every style.
Close, I do think that color benefits MOST art styles.

>if Ichigo's orange hair were just flaring up against the colourless wasteland.
But it CAN work with the right colors! I think you're thinking of "My Little Ponies" type of coloring when I speak of colors. To bring Bolland and his recoloring again, look at my pic, the colors are very subtle, some panels are nearly black and white.

>>42260905
>Minimum amount of pages with color
This.

>>42260782
This has got to be a troll

Manga is primarily a visual medium if you want to read, read literature you fucking piece of shit

Or if that's too highbrow for you, read shitty light novels

>>42260738 Sounds like manga artists get exploited big time.
Not really. That's just the way it is in Japan throughout. Working your ass off is a part of life.

Also, I think Tezuka had influence over this somewhat. The man entered the Japanese comic industry when he was still in med school (which he finished anyway) and it was not uncommon for him to have several serializations at a time. Of course, his admirers followed in his footsteps and their admirers and so on.

>>42261092
why dont you me?

>>42260639
>>42260665

>>42261187

Tezuka had more than 4 series running at the same time and did most of it by himself, fuck the guy was such a workaholic that one of the things he said on his deathbed was "Please let me work" or something like that, and considering that he's the godfather of manga he probably did set overworking as a standard among his colleagues and then the industry got so used to it that everybody had to do it.

>>42261092
>But it CAN work with the right colors! I think you're thinking of "My Little Ponies" type of coloring when I speak of colors. To bring Bolland and his recoloring again, look at my pic, the colors are very subtle, some panels are nearly black and white.

That's not a good example at all. That's the Joker. He looks like a bleak, creepy clown in a bleak background because he was SPECIFFICALLY DESIGNED to look like that from the very start. That's a character who was ALWAYS meant to have those colors attached to him at all times. The atmosphere is built around him, not the other way around.

Manga artists can do certain things with characters' color palletes because they know that 99% of the time, they'll be black and white, which means that everything they design is meant to produce an effect while lacking color.

To use your Rulk example: A Manga Rulk would be easy to distinguish from a Manga Hulk because there would be a visual cue independent from color that would set the apart. But Rulk was always menat to be colored, so he's only distinguishable because of the color. It's a deisgn choice that is made from the very beginning of the character's conception.

What you are talking about is far, FAR more complicated than hiring a guy to slap some palletes on it after the fact.

>>42261065
>superhero bullshit
That superhero bullshit gave us THE GODDAMN BATMAN, you bitch!

>>42261234
>why dont you me?
I uh, addressed the cost thing on earlier posts, sorry if I don't link your posts, but it was as much of a response for the ones who I linked as for everyone who mentioned it.

But recapitulating, I get that it's a different market. I get that it would elevate the cost of the XBOXHUEG magazines they sell. I get they whip their artists into submission and pay them with bread and water. That sucks.

But again, why not color the collected volumes?

>>42261377
>He looks like a bleak, creepy clown in a bleak background because he was SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to look like that from the very start.
Forget the character, the point was the use of colors. A bleak background with a single item resonating with wild color (the red hood or Ichigo's orange hair). Also please see: >>42260066 for the original coloring.

>>42261344
On the other hand, not to critizise Tezuka, but his style was not exactly time-consuming. His drawings were never very complex, as was normal of his time.

We make fun of Kubo, but his shit is still more complex than Tezuka's and obviously takes more time to make. The average manga today takes considerably more work than a lot of stuff Tezuka did, especially at the start.

>>42261092
I don't know why you insist on color, dude. Color is fucking complicated. It's no wonder those comics have to have a separate colorist as it a discipline all on it's own because you have take in the factors of hue, saturation and value.

Manga a totally different thing from the comics of the US (at the least the superhero kind). Manga is a cinematic and an involving experience with panels of all shapes of sizes transitioning from moment to moment, kick to punch, he said to she said, burnt out cigarettes to a messy bed. There's a reason why it's 200 pages. To have all those 200 pages in color would clunky and cumbersome and way too expensive.

Black and white is what makes manga so economical and because of that you can have a whole world of variety. From manga adapting the Romance of the Three Kingdoms to a manga set along the Silk Road in the 19th century (pic related). If there was color I'm pretty sure editors would be much more conservative about what they'd publish.

>>42261524
>A bleak background with a single item resonating with wild color (the red hood or Ichigo's orange hair)

You mean the helmet? No, honestly, I don't think that looks good at all.

I know you are thinking of the Sin City Black-White-Red pallete for contrast, but that's really far from what you see in this image. I just find the helmet distracting.

because it often looks better in black & white than in colour

>>42261524
>But again, why not color the collected volumes?
first, sorry i meant to say "why dont you answer me?", somehow i erased the answer part.

moving along, because Normalfags, again, if each tank cost 400Y to 700Yen (4u$s to 7u$s), for books of 168 to 188 (sometimes even more than 220) pages, sometimes with 8 colour pages.

normalfags buy this books, is not only the otakus that buy those books, see the difference. otakus are not that relevant in the manga market, normalfags are relevant, so if normalfags are not going to buy manga because is expensive, then why the need to make it more expensive?

Otakus will still buy their bullshit, but not normalfags, that is the main reason why japanese comics are not in colour, because the core market DONT CARE about colour, they will stop buying manga if is too expensive.

that is the reason why japanese comics sell so fucking well in japan, because (unlike anime) they are not marketed toward otakus. if otakus were the main core of the manga industry, then i dont see why japanese publishers wouldn't try to take more money out of those fuckers (like american publishers are doing with their buyers).

expensive distracting blurred coloured mess<cross-hatching/shading/toning

>>42261693
so. much.detail.

Coloring is alot of work for the mangaka + like couple assistants. Especially for doing an entire tank if you still do a ongoing series.

>>42261524
>Manga series, baring RARE exceptions by known big shots, are basically "allowed" to run. An artist craps out something the editors like, and they start serialization. If they do good, great. If not, they get canned. There is no infraestructure in place designed to support the series, it's the contrary. You perform, or you got to hell. They get an editor and IF THEY ARE LUCKY, a/an assitant(s) that they need to pay off their own pocket.

>You need to remmeber, nobody has a premade character to work with. Everything starts from zero. Companies don't hire So and So to make them a story about This and That. There's no certainty or safety cushion like knowing you are working with a beloved character. They need to build every franchise from the ground, completely. And there are hundreds of such fresh starts every year.

Can you address this?
I think it's your main misconception about how manga and comics work.

A manga is made basically by one person, the mangaka, and (a few) assisstant(s). They have to build their own fame from zero.
If a magazine is interested in their story, they allow them a one-shot. If there is some form of response to it, they are allowed to run. Some magazines have a poll system to determine who stays.

There are no big franchises, unless you are thinking of anime, but that's another matter, completely. It's not like the american system, where there are already well known characters, and the company hires people to write and draw their stories. Those are sure to sell, but this aren't, they can't afford to put much money into it, since the odds of succeeding are really low.

>>42261979
>so. much.detail.
Yes, looks really nice.

>>42261917
>that is the reason why japanese comics sell so fucking well in japan, because (unlike anime) they are not marketed toward otakus.

Huh, didn't know that. Always thought it was the other way around.

>>42262228
That's interesting. The question that comes to mind is...what about independent manga? Why do mangaka(s?) don't liberate themselves from such an oppressive system? Independent comic brands have existed and thrived for many decades in the West.

>>42262367
Who would buy them?
I think they'd prefer to have something to eat when they get home.

There are doujinshi circles, which are the closest thing to independent comics, but they are done more as a hobby, since the doujin artists don't really earn much money at all. These are sold at conventions, mainly Comiket, which is done twice a year.

>>42262367
>what about independent manga? Why do mangaka(s?) don't liberate themselves from such an oppressive system? Independent comic brands have existed and thrived for many decades in the West.
One could say that the hardcore Japanese comic community REVOLVES around independent comics and vendors. They have a convention twice a year that draws almost 600,000 people to the same building in order to get their hands on the latest and the greatest.
It's just institutionalized that way there. They would ask the same questions of us Westerners---"Why do you do that instead of this?"

>>42262367
>The question that comes to mind is...what about independent manga? Why do mangaka(s?) don't liberate themselves from such an oppressive system?

Again, you are mistaking the market.

There ARE "less popular" magazines, but these are still a far cry from "Indie comics". Again, the main market for manga are NOT GEEKS, but regular kids and normal people who just buy the magazine as a habbit and read it in their spare time. "Indie manga" would not survive because there would be no market.

What DOES exist is doujinshi, but this is only another way for a writer/artist to get himself known. The top goal of anyone releasing a lot of "serious" doujinshi is to go pro and joining the pre-existing industry.

TYPE-MOON/Ryukishi-like examples where random nerds hit it big and do their own shit are one in a million, and even then, they only get successful when they start going mainstream. Fate/stay night brought way more money with the anime+movie+All-Ages version of the novel than it did with the original 18+ one.

>>42262630
>They have a convention twice a year that draws almost 600,000 people to the same building in order to get their hands on the latest and the greatest.

That's a misconception.

Comiket is very important for the mainstream companies, and for more niche franchises with their alread-established otaku fanbase. But this is mainly an anime/otaku-centric convention, we are talking about manga here.

We are not talking about eroge/game/CD/anime. Comiket is not really the place for MANGA to start off. It's, at best, a place for game developers and artists to show their stuff, but that's aimed at a different target. Your average One Piece reader doesn't go to comiket.

>>42262634
>"Indie manga" would not survive because there would be no market.
Say Hello to Black Jack

>>42262798
That was such a PERFECT response it's ridiculous.
You get ten million points.

>>42262630
>>42262634
>>42262493

Okay, so I go to Japan and start my own manga editorial. I get some of the best writers and artists (I'll probably will have to outsource the coloring...), fuck the XBOXHUEG magazines, I'll print my own stuff, we'll print monthly and we won't starve our people; of course we'll have to get some ads, because costs just went up pretty fast. So basically, I try the Western industry-style in Japan.

Will I bathe in yens or will I have to run from my creditors?

>>42262798
>Kodansha
what? indie doesn't mean independent ?

>>42262798
What is wrong with HIS FACE?!

>>42262798
>>42262859

No it's not you asshats, that was published in Weekly Morning, a Kodansha magazine, the same one that publishes fucking VAGABOND. What the hell is indie or independent about that? It's just a seinen magazine.

>
There ARE "less popular" magazines, but these are still a far cry from "Indie comics". Again, the main market for manga are NOT GEEKS, but regular kids and normal people who just buy the magazine as a habbit and read it in their spare time. "Indie manga" would not survive because there would be no market.

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. You are absolutely clueless, you know nothing about manga. Literally nothing.

STOP MAKING THINGS UP PRETENDING TO AN EXPERT WHEN YOU DON*T KNOW SHIT

Thank you

>>42262970
Incidentally, Weekly Morning is, take a guess, a weekly publication.

So so much for escaping the rigours of the mainstream market to boot.

>>42262914
you will sink in the first year.

or at least you will do like Viz in america (like crap).

>>42259010
Pic related: you are the fat nerd.

>>42262798
That's not a good example at all.

Publishing under Kodansha is not exactly a good way to dodge the harsh standards of the industry. You have more leeaway with thematic themes in Seinen, and obviously nothing is as fucking draconian as Weekly Shonen Jump's standards, but the basic process is still the same.

a real example of a true "indie" story would be Onanie Master Kurosawa, but that was published as doujinshi and wasn't anywhere near as popular to go mainstream. It's an otaku thing that didn't even rake up that much cash.

If you wnat to make it big in Japan, you need to suck up to the industry. And that means either going for the Otaku, doing decent profit, and forgetting about mainstream, or going mainstream and getting the big bucks, but getting your ass torn by schedules.

Or hit the fucking jackpot like Nasu or ZUN, but good luck with that.

>>42262914
>get some of the best writers and artists

First, it will sink. There is no place for new magazines. Just look at josei manga magazines, it's fucking pitiful. Seinen sell horribly, too.

Second,
>get some of the best writers and artists

Who are they supposed to be? The best, no, even just the good ones are already busy, with their owns serializations. Do you realize how much worh that is?

If you are thinking, about hiring doujin artist, good luck. No store nor costumer cares about a magazine with no fame, filled with no-name artists.
Also, because you will barely make money, say goodbye to color.

>>42263389
There's obviously no point in doing a One Piece rip off and hoping for independent success but the same is true in America. "Indie" publisher usually don't do Marvel heroes (except old Image I guess but that's not the what comes to mind when people hear the word).

If someone on the other hand thinks there is no market for smaller, niche titles that are the equivalent of "indie" comics like the ones published by Fanta or Picturebox they are completely wrong though.

Hmm...all of this has made me wonder how much DC+Marvel+others sell in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if they find it difficult to sell a 100 issues a month. Do manga stores have a lonely shelf in the corner for "Baka Gaijin Comics"?

>>42263655
>If someone on the other hand thinks there is no market for smaller, niche titles that are the equivalent of "indie" comics like the ones published by Fanta or Picturebox they are completely wrong though.

That market already exists, it's what Seinen and Josei already live off. You can make a living there, but forget about getting rich.

ESPECIALLY forget about better working conditions. That was the whole point here. You are definitely not going to get the budget for full-color publications in a magazine like Weekly Monday, and the only reason Inoue can do whatever the fuck he wants with Vagabond is because he's fucking Takehiko Inoue.

>>42263572
>>42263828

This. Truly "independent" series would find it impossible to survive. There's already more magazines than the market wants, trying to go off on your own is impossible outside Doujinshi circles.

"Less thematically popular" series aimed at geeks can scrape off a living, with luck, but you are still under the industry's thumb, and you can kiss true fame and succcess's ass goodbye. Nevermind trying to out-quality mainstream series in terms of tools available.