26 July 2002
Source: Digital transcript purchased from
Exemplaris.com for $12.00.
Other case documents: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-zm-cd.htm
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
2 ALEXANDRIA DIVISION
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, . Criminal No. 01-455-A
.
4 vs. . Alexandria, Virginia
. July 15, 2002
5 ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI, . 4:30 p.m.
a/k/a Shaqil, a/k/a .
6 Abu Khalid al Sahrawi, .
.
7 Defendant. .
.
8 . . . . . . . . . . .
9 TRANSCRIPT OF TELEPHONE CONFERENCE
BEFORE THE HONORABLE LEONIE M. BRINKEMA
10 UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
11 APPEARANCES: (by telephone)
12 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: ROBERT A. SPENCER, AUSA
United States Attorney's Office
13 2100 Jamieson Avenue
Alexandria, VA 22314
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(APPEARANCES CONT'D. ON FOLLOWING PAGE)
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: ANNELIESE J. THOMSON, RDR, CRR
20 U.S. District Court, Fifth Floor
401 Courthouse Square
21 Alexandria, VA 22314
(703)299-8595
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(Pages 1 - 12)
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25 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION OF STENOGRAPHIC NOTES
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1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd.)
2 FOR THE DEFENDANT: FRANK W. DUNHAM, JR.
Federal Public Defender
3 Office of the Federal Public
Defender
4 1650 King Street
Alexandria, VA 22314
5 and
EDWARD B. MAC MAHON, ESQ.
6 P.O. Box 903
107 East Washington Street
7 Middleburg, VA 20118
and
8 ALAN H. YAMAMOTO, ESQ.
108 N. Alfred Street, First Floor
9 Alexandria, VA 22314-3032
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE COURT: Hello. Hello?
3 MR. SPENCER: Good afternoon, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Spencer, we're on speaker
5 phone. Can you hear me?
6 MR. SPENCER: I can hear you, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, are you there?
8 THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I can hardly hear you.
9 THE COURT: All right. We'll try to speak up. I have
10 this as loud as I can make it.
11 All right. And, Mr. Dunham and Mr. Yamamoto and
12 Mr. MacMahon, are you all there?
13 MR. DUNHAM: Yes, Your Honor.
14 MR. YAMAMOTO: Yes, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right. You all have to speak up. We
16 can barely hear you.
17 THE DEFENDANT: I want immediately to oppose the
18 communication with Dunham and MacMahon and all --
19 THE COURT: Wait, Mr. Moussaoui, we cannot hear you.
20 Can you get closer to the telephone?
21 THE DEFENDANT: I'm saying that I want to reject the
22 presence of MacMahon and Zerkin. I didn't ask for them to be
23 present.
24 THE COURT: Well, your objection is overruled. They're
25 going to be present for this. This is a pretrial matter. You've
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1 noted your objection for the record.
2 The only reason I'm having this by telephone is you
3 seem to be under the impression that you're going before the
4 grand jury tomorrow. Mr. --
5 THE DEFENDANT: I received a letter. I'm not under any
6 impression. I receive a letter from the prosecution telling me
7 that tomorrow there will be a hearing of the grand jury, so I
8 don't know why you are saying an impression. I have the document
9 with me.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Spencer, is Mr. Moussaoui going to be
11 called as a witness before the grand jury tomorrow?
12 MR. SPENCER: Not tomorrow, Your Honor, due to his
13 insistence on having other persons before the grand jury with him
14 or, or having the --
15 THE DEFENDANT: Not at all.
16 MR. SPENCER: -- testimony disseminated --
17 THE DEFENDANT: I sent you a letter, a specific letter
18 accepting your condition and saying that I will testify tomorrow,
19 and it was sent to you on Friday, and I accepted that Mr. Bro
20 Freeman will not be there. So I don't know why you are saying
21 this.
22 MR. SPENCER: Well, the reason I'm saying it, I got a
23 letter today to Paul McNulty saying that you would testify before
24 the grand jury, but it didn't address the question of these
25 demands you're making about televising the grand jury or having
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1 marshals present.
2 THE DEFENDANT: No, no, I'm not making any demand,
3 okay? I make a motion. The motion was rejected. That's the end
4 of the matter.
5 I don't know why you are saying this, because it's
6 very simple. I sent you a letter accepting that I will appear
7 like that, and I have accepted that the motion have been
8 rejected. That's the way the system work.
9 MR. SPENCER: Well, at this point, Your Honor, because
10 of the, the defendant's insistence on having marshals present and
11 he's still filing motions to that effect, that we are not
12 prepared to do it tomorrow. If he continues to want to appear
13 before the grand jury, we can arrange that at a later date, but
14 at this rate --
15 THE DEFENDANT: I want to appear tomorrow.
16 MR. SPENCER: -- we cannot do it tomorrow.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, if you talk when the
18 prosecutor or anybody else is talking, we cannot hear you.
19 THE DEFENDANT: So it's very simple. I want to appear
20 in front of the grand jury tomorrow. It was -- I responded to
21 their letter in due time in no uncertain terms accepting, and
22 they are say that they will convene tomorrow. It should be
23 convened tomorrow. It's another manipulation of the whole
24 system.
25 MR. SPENCER: Well, Your Honor, we're just not prepared
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1 because of the late notice on this, and with all respect to
2 Mr. Moussaoui, it was not clear. The matters that he is, he is
3 demanding in his pleadings were not addressed at all in the
4 letter, and so we cannot at this point because of logistics work
5 it for tomorrow.
6 As I said, if he wants to testify before the grand
7 jury, we can arrange it at some other time, but it will not be
8 able to occur tomorrow.
9 THE COURT: All right. Well, what I need to know,
10 Mr. Spencer, because the marshals need to know this --
11 THE DEFENDANT: It's up to you, I'm not the judge, and
12 the Judge has rejected my motion, okay? So I send a letter to
13 you accepting your conditions, and now you are just delaying
14 because you know that it is something that I'm looking forward to
15 help my case, and I want this grand jury to happen tomorrow,
16 because you have written a letter to me saying that the booking
17 have been made and you will be convene and I had to respond
18 before Friday evening.
19 That's what I did. I have the receipt to testify of
20 this. So you have absolutely no excuse.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, defendants and witnesses do
22 not control the grand jury. The government is not required to
23 put you before the grand jury tomorrow, and if they want you to
24 testify at some other point, if that's legally possible --
25 because as the government knows, once a grand jury has indicted a
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1 person, it's not permitted to continue investigating the case.
2 The grand jury is going to have to look at this case
3 again because of a change in the law, and you know that from the
4 motion that was filed. That's the only reason why this grand
5 jury can still legally be addressing this particular indictment.
6 Mr. Spencer, what I need to know from you, though,
7 because the marshals need this for scheduling purposes, is there
8 going to be a need for a re-arraignment hearing this Thursday?
9 MR. SPENCER: Well, I have told Mr. Dunham, Your Honor,
10 and I think I told Ms. Falk that we intend to present a
11 superseding indictment tomorrow. I suspect that we will need to
12 re-arraign on that.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. SPENCER: And Thursday is acceptable to the
15 government.
16 THE COURT: All right. Then it looks as though,
17 Mr. Moussaoui, you will be back in court Thursday afternoon at
18 1:00 for a, yet another re-arraignment.
19 And I want to make sure, Mr. Spencer, that
20 Mr. Moussaoui, if the grand jury should pass out a superseding
21 indictment, that he gets a copy of it immediately so he has time
22 to look at it before he comes to court. All right?
23 MR. SPENCER: Yes, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, while I have you
25 on the phone, I am concerned about something.
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1 THE DEFENDANT: Think about what you're doing.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, I need to know are you
3 receiving all of my orders?
4 THE DEFENDANT: No, I'm not receiving all the paper
5 that I should be receiving. For example, I didn't receive the --
6 you don't send me any of the motion filed by, by this bunch of
7 lawyer that you've appointed to me, and I know that they are
8 interfering with my defense, because they are file the motions
9 about the death penalty. That's clearly a matter for the pro se
10 defendant.
11 And also, I have to say that I've been trying to send
12 for more than four weeks now letter to the European Court of
13 Justice and the European -- and the European Parliament, and the
14 FBI and the, the U.S. government is refusing to send my letter
15 for four weeks.
16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Moussaoui, I have addressed
17 that problem --
18 THE DEFENDANT: -- intervene --
19 THE COURT: Mr. Moussaoui, stop, please. We can't hear
20 you. I have addressed that issue in an order that you should
21 receive tomorrow morning. That's been taken care of.
22 THE DEFENDANT: But --
23 THE COURT: But wait a minute. Listen to me. I am
24 concerned when you tell me you didn't get the supplemental motion
25 from the standby defense counsel on the motion to dismiss the
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1 death -- the --
2 THE DEFENDANT: It was never sent to me.
3 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, he -- Your Honor,
4 Mr. Moussaoui does not receive mail.
5 THE DEFENDANT: I don't have to receive from you
6 anything. I'm talking from the Court. I have nothing to do with
7 these people.
8 THE COURT: All right. Well, Mr. Moussaoui, I need to
9 tell you this: We have been bending over backwards to send you
10 copies of your own pleadings back so you know they've been filed.
11 I send you copies of every order the Court issues. I am not
12 going to be sending you copies of what the standby counsel file.
13 You need to open those envelopes and --
14 THE DEFENDANT: I'm not going to open. That's end of
15 the matter. Thank you.
16 THE COURT: Then you proceed at your own risk.
17 You may know I've also ordered the defense, standby
18 defense counsel to help you find the names of electronic
19 surveillance experts and finger- -- handwriting experts. They're
20 going to give you some names and the background, and you can
21 choose the ones you want.
22 THE DEFENDANT: You can keep it. You can use it for
23 your own services.
24 Anyway, the government is refusing to, to produce the
25 fan, the electric fan that I've talked about. They are not
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1 deceiving by saying that the (unintelligible) they have doesn't
2 belong to me. And I brought it in the apartment, and it was in
3 the apartment when I left. Mukaram and Al Attas are witness of
4 this. I filed a motion today addressing this point that this
5 electric fan should be produced.
6 THE COURT: The government has indicated they don't
7 have the fan. Is that correct, Mr. Spencer?
8 MR. SPENCER: That's right, Your Honor. It was not
9 seized. We don't know where it was.
10 THE COURT: If it has not been seized, they can't
11 produce it. That ends the issue.
12 THE DEFENDANT: It was in the apartment. I ask that Al
13 Attas and Mukaram should testify that it was in the apartment
14 when the FBI came to, to investigate.
15 THE COURT: All right, that's another issue. That's a
16 request for a trial subpoena. I have no problem addressing that
17 in a separate matter. But in terms of -- the Court can never
18 require the government to produce something it doesn't have.
19 THE DEFENDANT: You are just endorsing their, their
20 positions. You have completely sided with the government. You
21 are engaged with the government and your standby lawyer in the
22 highest level of deception.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 THE DEFENDANT: And I want the motion filed by Bro
25 Freeman to be endorsed at my name, because I want you to recuse
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1 yourself as soon as possible, because you are not able to
2 administrate this court of justice.
3 THE COURT: All right. Well, Mr. Moussaoui, that
4 request is denied.
5 I'm going to terminate this now. We'll see you
6 Thursday unless the grand jury does not return the indictment.
7 And, counsel, do you wish to have this transcript
8 public or not?
9 MR. DUNHAM: Your Honor, I would like a transcript of
10 it.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 THE DEFENDANT: Yes, I want, I want this transcript,
13 and I want an appearance in front of the grand jury.
14 THE COURT: Well, that's been denied unless you and the
15 government can work it out.
16 All right, I'm signing off now. That ends this
17 conference.
18 MR. SPENCER: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Good-bye.
20 (Which were all the proceedings
21 had at this time.)
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1 CERTIFICATE OF THE REPORTER
2 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript of the
3 record of proceedings in the above-entitled matter.
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Anneliese J. Thomson
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