27 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 27, 2004
10 9:30 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
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23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
12
12
13
14
15
15
16
17
18
19
20
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all.
3 MR. TIGAR: In light of yesterday's press conference
4 by the Attorney General and the publicity about Al Qaeda
5 operatives in the United States, we would ask your Honor
6 specifically to inquire in your initial questioning of jurors
7 whether there is anything they have read or heard in the last 2
8 days that has an impact on their ability to be a fair and
9 impartial juror.
10 I don't think it's necessary to focus on the specific
11 press conferences but the level of concern has been very high
12 and the Attorney General and his friends went so far yesterday
13 as to suggest that people watch new people moving in into their
14 neighborhood and be unusually vigilant about strangers and so
15 on.
16 THE COURT: I actually do ask each of the jurors a
17 substantially similar question and I will continue to do that.
18 MR. TIGAR: I was suggesting, your Honor, a slight
19 modification of what I had understood the court to have been
20 doing in the past.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't want to interrupt your Honor, if
23 you had something.
24 The reason I rose was that we would like to make a
25 proposal to the court on behalf of the defense that your Honor
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1 stop the jury selection process when we reach 66 pre-qualified
2 jurors. That is ten over the minimum that we need. I have
3 discussed it with the government. They haven't informed me
4 their position on this but also with the proviso that the
5 remaining jurors not be told that they are released in the
6 event that for some unforeseen reason we lose ten jurors over
7 the next 3, 4 weeks. That is our proposal. If we did that we
8 can surely finish jury selection next week and then turn to
9 some of the other issues that are on everyone's plate. That is
10 our proposal, your Honor. I don't expect you to rule on it
11 right now.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 The government?
14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I don't think we have firmly
15 decided where we stand with respect to that issue. We have
16 discussed it amongst ourselves. We do think though that 66 is
17 a bit low as a number. Your Honor originally wanted us to
18 qualify 70. That was before the extension of the start of the
19 trial until June 21st and when that matter came up in court
20 several weeks ago it was our recommendation that your Honor
21 include at least ten additional jurors to the pool because of
22 the added amount of time and possibility that we might lose
23 jurors in the interim. So at the very least I think that is
24 going to be our position with respect to this issue, your
25 Honor.
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1 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I will certainly think about
2 it and I will see how it goes.
3 MR. RUHNKE: We would not include in that number
4 jurors who have to get back to us or who are just provisionally
5 qualified.
6 THE COURT: If I went down below 90 and came closer to
7 80 you are only talking about an additional 2 days, about an
8 additional 2 days of qualifying.
9 MR. RUHNKE: That seems fine.
10 THE COURT: So I will see where we are.
11 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just one very quick matter.
12 We are having a computer problem and we have a
13 litigation support person from our office here who we were
14 going to ask the court if it was okay if they sit here and try
15 to fix it. They won't be making noise or anything but I can't
16 figure it out and I wanted to ask the court.
17 THE COURT: Sure.
18 MR. BARKOW: Thank you.
19 THE COURT: We got a note or the jury administrator
20 got a note from Juror 464. I will read it to you.
21 "I filled out the questionnaire on May 4. I will be
22 out of town from June 3rd to June 7th. I was told that I
23 probably won't get called before June 7th. Thank you."
24 And so I have marked my notes for 464 as not until
25 June 7th.
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1 The parties were going to discuss what they wish to do
2 with 217. That was the juror who knew someone else and so the
3 issue is when the jury administrator essentially should give
4 some information that it is or is not an issue. From the looks
5 on the government's face it's not an issue that you have
6 considered yet.
7 MR. DEMBER: We haven't come to a definitive
8 conclusion with respect to that one, your Honor, as to what
9 position we are taking.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. DEMBER: But we will, and this afternoon I can
12 represent something to the court, if you wish.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 In going over the questionnaires, do the parties agree
15 that Juror 257 should be stricken?
16 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
17 THE COURT: That is why I checked.
18 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Yes, your Honor.
19 THE CLERK: 257, your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 So the parties agree that 257 can be stricken. 257
22 was scheduled to be called in this afternoon. I don't know if
23 Mr. Price can call 257 and excuse 257.
24 Okay, this morning I am told we have 227, 238, 240,
25 241, 243, 246, 250, 252, 253 and 254.
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1 248 is absent sick.
2 Are we ready for 227?
3 (Juror present)
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q. Good morning, Juror 227.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. It's good to see you.
8 Let me ask you some preliminary questions before I go
9 to the questionnaire.
10 Since you were here last has anything changed
11 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
12 anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard or read
13 anything that may affect your ability to be a fair and
14 impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
17 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
18 it's unlikely that you will be asked to call back before June
19 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me what the serious hardship is.
22 A. Because I am a nurse's aid and I have nobody to replace me
23 for my clients.
24 Q. Okay.
25 You are a nurse's aid?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you filled out the questionnaire you told us that
3 serving on the jury in this case would not be a serious
4 hardship if you were chosen in this case.
5 What is it that occurs to you now that leads you to
6 believe that it would be a serious hardship?
7 A. The long period of time.
8 Q. Well, you are right, it's a long period of time, but if you
9 were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be paid your
10 salary, wouldn't you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You work for an organization that itself works with the
13 federal government?
14 A. I really don't know because I am new.
15 Q. I am sorry? Keep your voice up.
16 A. Excuse me, I have a cold.
17 I said I don't know because I am new in the agency. I
18 don't know how it works.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Why are you sure that your salary will not be paid?
21 A. Because they told me so when I start working.
22 Q. What did they tell you?
23 A. That if I start jury duty I don't get paid for jury duty.
24 Q. When you filled out the questionnaire you said that serving
25 on the jury would not be a serious hardship for you. Why did
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1 you say it would not be a serious hardship if you were
2 confident that your salary would not be paid?
3 A. Because I thought it was going to be a short case.
4 Q. I am sorry?
5 A. I thought it was going to be short.
6 Q. But I told you at the outset how long the case would be.
7 So when you filled out the questionnaire you knew how long the
8 case would be, didn't you? Yes?
9 A. No.
10 Q. On the first page of the questionnaire it says the court
11 and the parties estimate that the trial in this case will last
12 approximately 4 to 6 months. And then you were asked would you
13 have a serious hardship and you said no.
14 A. I did a mistake.
15 Q. All right.
16 Can you step out for a moment?
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: I am prepared to strike the juror.
19 MR. TIGAR: The defense consents, your Honor.
20 MR. DEMBER: So do we, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Juror 227, I will excuse you. You can go home now and all
25 of your paperwork will be taken care of in the mail.
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1 A. Am I going to get a letter?
2 Q. You can go over to the jury office and talk to the jury
3 administrator about getting a letter that you were here today.
4 A. Okay, thank you. Have a nice day.
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: Juror 238.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Please have a seat.
10 Good morning, Juror 238. It's good to see you.
11 A. Thank you. Good morning.
12 Q. Since you were here last has anything changed concerning
13 your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
14 occurred to you or have you seen or heard anything that may
15 affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this
16 case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
19 chosen in this case will be June 21st. So after today you
20 won't be called to come back. You won't have to call in until
21 June 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
22 A. Not at all.
23 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
24 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
25 the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
3 any conversations here at the courthouse with any prospective
4 jurors?
5 A. No.
6 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
7 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
8 A. No, I haven't.
9 Q. You told us in the questionnaire that you work for the
10 Department of Homeland Security in the citizenship immigration
11 services and that you are a customer service information
12 representative. Can you explain what that job entails?
13 A. It's pretty much entails providing information on laws,
14 regulations to customers, the public. You are pretty much just
15 giving them information on applying for immigration benefits,
16 just assisting them in applying for applications and benefits
17 and giving them help on regulations and policy just to serve
18 them in terms of applying for citizenship or permanent
19 residency or other immigration benefits.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Is there anything about that job that would prevent
22 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. I don't think so, no.
24 Q. One of the instructions that I give is that this case is
25 brought in the name of the United States but the fact that the
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1 government is a party to the case entitles the government to no
2 greater or lesser consideration than any other party to the
3 case. All parties are equal in this court of justice. Do you
4 understand that?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
7 A. Yes, I will.
8 Q. And is there another instruction -- and another instruction
9 that I explain is that in a criminal case such as this the
10 burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove all of the
11 charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt at trial.
12 Will you follow that instruction?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is there anything about your job that would prevent you
15 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No. Not that I am aware of.
17 Q. You mentioned that you access the Internet multiple times a
18 day. Do you use the Internet for news?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What sources of news do you use on the Internet?
21 A. Various search engines, Yahoo, New York Times dot com, just
22 various newspapers, Sports Illustrated, just general news,
23 sports news, that sort of thing.
24 Q. Okay.
25 You mentioned that you have some familiarity with laws
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1 and that you have taken classes on immigration law.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Where did you take classes on immigration law?
4 A. Currently where I work right now in the city, and as well
5 as the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
8 would be required to follow my instructions on the law. Even
9 if you were to disagree with them, even if you thought that
10 there was something in one of the classes or something you had
11 heard or read anywhere that differed from my instructions, it's
12 the basic principle that you are required to follow my
13 instructions on the law.
14 Will you do that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You told us that you are not very knowledgeable about
17 Islam, but you took some courses on world religion at college.
18 Can you tell us what books you used, if you recall?
19 A. It was years ago. It was a general world religion course
20 and they went over a little bit of Islam and some Middle East
21 practices and to that effect, but it was just really vague and
22 it didn't really get too far into detail. I mean, it was
23 almost fleeting, like a fleeting emphasis on Islam. It was
24 really vague and limited.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 Is there anything in particular that you recall
2 learning about Islam?
3 A. You know, I think an emphasis on peacefulness partially.
4 It's kind of hard to recollect. It has been quite a bit of
5 time ago.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Do you have any biases or prejudices against persons
8 of Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You said that after 9/11 you believed that to some extent
11 there may be some bias against people of Middle Eastern descent
12 or people of the Islamic faith. What did you mean by that?
13 A. You just hear sometimes people talking, you know, just
14 overhear a conversation or someone being a little skeptical of
15 a particular person, just in passing hearing comments. You
16 know, you just hear it, people saying things and preconceived
17 opinions, being a little I guess judgmental, preconceived
18 judgments.
19 Q. Do you have any preconceived judgments about any of the
20 parties or charges in this case?
21 A. None.
22 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case would you decide
23 this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence in
24 this case and my instructions on the law?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you went to the FBI building in lower
2 Manhattan for an interview. What was the nature of that
3 interview?
4 A. It was for the State Department for a foreign consular
5 special agent position so you had to go down there for an
6 interview before a panel of agents.
7 Q. Okay.
8 And did you get that job?
9 A. I was placed on a list of eligibles but it never came up.
10 Q. Are you currently applying for that job?
11 A. No, no.
12 Q. How long ago was that?
13 A. Let me see, it was I think like '98 or '99, sometime.
14 Q. You mentioned that you work in a building with the
15 immigration court but you have never actually entered it. In
16 the course of your duties at your job, do you have contact with
17 people from the Middle East?
18 A. I don't really know if they are from the Middle East but I
19 see people coming into the court when I am downstairs hanging
20 out in the front but I don't know their descent.
21 Q. Do you talk to people over the phone or do you talk to
22 people in person in your job?
23 A. Mainly over the phone.
24 Q. Okay.
25 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
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1 be required to decide this case based solely upon the evidence
2 or lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on
3 the law.
4 Will you do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
7 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
8 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
9 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
10 one final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked
11 you about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from
12 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a few moments.
15 (Juror absent)
16 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we requested, and I think you
17 may have omitted this unintentionally, to question 62, which
18 the question regarding the recording of conversations between
19 attorney and client.
20 THE COURT: You are right.
21 MR. DEMBER: I would suggest questions about that
22 please.
23 THE COURT: I dropped my note. Thank you.
24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, without suggesting specific
25 questions I will tell the court our concern. He applied for a
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1 job as a consular special agent. I am not sure what that is.
2 It sounds like what used to be called the Laged Act. These
3 were bureau agents who were sworn agents who operated out of
4 consular offices and didn't surface their FBI connection
5 necessarily but they were there and a part of it. If he was
6 looking for a job as a sworn agent of the FBI and as has not
7 yet heard back and is still on the list, that would be relevant
8 to us.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I am fairly sure he assured me that
10 that is not open and I will ask him what it is and if he is
11 still applying for that position.
12 MR. TIGAR: And then he did say he was at a law
13 enforcement training center in Georgia. The question would be
14 did he study any law enforcement techniques. It doesn't sound
15 from his job description as though he is engaged in something
16 that could be described as law enforcement but the nature of
17 that curriculum might yield something that would be helpful to
18 us to know.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 If none of these questions appear to develop anything
21 I intend to ask the juror to call in on June 18th.
22 MR. TIGAR: Because of his employment with the
23 Department of Homeland Security, and given the nature of the
24 allegations in this case, your Honor, we would in any case, and
25 regardless of his answers to the follow-up questions, challenge
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1 on the basis of implied bias.
2 THE COURT: Well, the government?
3 MR. DEMBER: We would oppose that, your Honor. From
4 the the description of his position it wouldn't apply.
5 THE COURT: That is correct. I will ask the
6 additional questions but I will also ask him to step out before
7 I make the final ruling.
8 Okay, ask the juror to come back.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Hi.
12 Juror 238, I had a couple of other questions.
13 In responding to one question on the questionnaire, I
14 had asked you a question that dealt with the subject that there
15 may be -- some of the evidence in this case may include
16 recorded conversations between attorneys and their clients and
17 you were asked if there was anything that would prevent you
18 from being a fair and impartial juror based on that and you
19 said yes, it all depends on the surrounding context and
20 circumstances. You would need to be more informed of the
21 situation.
22 Let me explain.
23 Any evidence that is admitted in court the court
24 passes on whether the evidence can be admitted in trial. It's
25 up to the court to determine whether as a matter of law any
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1 evidence can be heard by the jury. The admissibility of
2 evidence, including all issues of privilege, are for the court
3 to decide. These are matters of law. It's up to the jury to
4 listen to the evidence, or lack of evidence, and all of the
5 evidence, and make their determination on the evidence or lack
6 of evidence and ask themselves, as the finder of fact, not as
7 the the decider of law but as the finder of fact, whether the
8 government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
9 reasonable doubt.
10 So whether jurors like or don't like any particular
11 kind of evidence or have any ideas in their mind about whether
12 something should or should not be privileged is not the issue.
13 It's for the jury to consider the evidence that is admitted at
14 trial and decide based upon that evidence or lack of evidence
15 whether the charges in the indictment are proven beyond a
16 reasonable doubt at trial.
17 And would you follow those instructions?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So is there anything about the fact that some of the
20 evidence in the case may include conversations between
21 attorneys and their clients, is there anything about that that
22 would prevent you from listening to all of the evidence and
23 deciding this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
24 evidence and my instructions on the law?
25 A. No, there isn't.
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1 Q. All right.
2 You mentioned that you had applied years ago for a
3 consular special agent position. What is a consular special
4 agent position?
5 A. It's where you work at consulates and embassies and you
6 just do investigations at those consulates and embassies. It's
7 a matter of just -- it's almost like the FBI outside the United
8 States, so you are the person doing investigations, background
9 checks on people possibly coming into the U.S. You know, you
10 are basically providing investigations outside the U.S.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. That kind of thing.
13 Q. And would you be employed by the FBI or by the State
14 Department?
15 A. The State Department.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And are you still applying for that position?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Can you tell me at the FBI or I believe it's the FBI center
20 in Georgia that you attended?
21 A. That is the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, FLETC
22 for short.
23 Q. I am sorry?
24 A. It's called FLETC for short, the Federal Law Enforcement
25 Training Center.
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1 Q. What did you study there?
2 A. Just immigration law, naturalization law, just different
3 types of immigration law basically.
4 Q. Did you study law enforcement techniques?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Let me just ask you again, and I know that this is
8 repetitious, as you can tell from all of my questions the
9 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
10 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one
12 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
13 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
14 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case you would be
17 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
18 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
19 law. Will you do that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you step out for just a moment?
22 A. Can I leave my bag here?
23 Q. Sure.
24 (Juror absent)
25 MR. TIGAR: We renew the challenge for cause, your
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1 Honor. The job that he wanted to have, his career goal, was to
2 work in this job and the job is to checkup on Americans that
3 are thought to be disloyal, to investigate alleged disloyalty
4 to the United States, the whole agenda. And I said that from
5 personal experience, your Honor, having practiced in France and
6 represented people in situations there and dealt with the
7 consular officers there and also in other countries in Europe.
8 That was his career goal and objective, your Honor, and it's
9 clear to us beyond just working for the government he
10 identifies with these law enforcement roles and therefore we
11 challenge for cause.
12 THE COURT: I am sorry, Mr. Ruhnke --
13 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Ruhnke has stepped out. He has a
14 conference in front of Judge Lynch at 10:30.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Stern, that is okay?
16 MR. STERN: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. TIGAR: I should also tell the court, he has an
19 oral argument in the Third Circuit this afternoon as well.
20 THE COURT: It's perfectly fine providing there are
21 two lawyers.
22 MR. STERN: It's fine with all of us.
23 THE COURT: Okay. It's just I looked up and didn't
24 see him and he hadn't told me that he would not be here and I
25 wanted to make sure I wasn't proceeding inadvertently in his
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1 absence.
2 MR. STERN: You can be sure you are not. He means not
3 to be here and wants you to proceed.
4 THE COURT: All right, the government?
5 MR. DEMBER: Just in response to Mr. Tigar, your
6 Honor, the juror did not say it was his career goal to obtain
7 the position that he applied for and was on apparently a list
8 of eligible candidates but is no longer under consideration or
9 no longer apparently is interested in the job. He also didn't
10 indicate that his job was to investigate and determine the
11 loyalty of individuals. In fact, he indicated the nature of
12 that job, which he didn't get or which he is not in now and is
13 not being considered for anymore, was just to do background
14 checks on people would might be entering the United States.
15 There is no, in our view, legitimate challenge for cause in
16 with respect though this juror and we request that you deny the
17 challenge.
18 THE COURT: All right. The challenge for cause is
19 denied. There is no basis under any of the possible bases for
20 a challenge for cause to challenge this potential juror. There
21 is nothing about his current occupation which is so close to
22 this case or the fact that at one time he had applied for
23 another job which itself is not so close to this case. The
24 juror was totally credible. I carefully questioned him,
25 observed his demeanor.
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1 I am convinced from his answers that he will be a fair
2 and impartial juror and decide the case based solely on the
3 evidence or lack of evidence were truthful and credible. He
4 would be a fair and impartial juror. As always, I have also
5 considered, even beyond challenges for cause, which are
6 required, I even considered whether exercising some discretion
7 I should exercise discretion because based on anything the
8 juror has said there is some indication that he could not be
9 fair and impartial based upon anything he said. But I have
10 carefully listened and there is nothing that comes to my
11 attention in any of his answers that indicate to me in any way
12 that he will not be a fair and impartial juror and decide this
13 case based solely on the evident or lack of evidence. So the
14 challenge for cause is denied.
15 Call the juror back.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Hi, Juror 238.
19 A. Hello.
20 Q. You are still in the jury selection process and that means
21 you will be asked to call back on June 18th and Mr. Fletcher
22 will give you a sheet of paper with the instructions on it.
23 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions. Please
24 don't talk about this case at all or anything to do with it.
25 Please remember not to look at or listen to anything to do with
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1 the case. If you should see something just turn away.
2 Remember, as I will tell the jurors who are finally selected,
3 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I
4 have instructed you on the law and you have gone to the jury
5 room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the
6 parties requires that you do that.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. All right. Have a good day.
9 A. Thank you.
10 (Juror absent)
11 THE CLERK: 240.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Hi.
15 A. Hello.
16 Q. Good morning, Juror 240.
17 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
18 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
19 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
20 or have you seen or heard or read anything that may affect your
21 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
24 selected in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after
25 today you won't have to call back until June is 8th. Does that
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1 present any serious hardship for you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Since you were here last, have you seen to anyone about the
4 case or have you looked at or listened to anything about the
5 case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
8 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
9 prospective jurors?
10 A. No.
11 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
12 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. All right.
15 I had a few follow-up questions on the questionnaire.
16 I know this is a personal question but bear with me for a
17 moment.
18 You indicated on the questionnaire that you are 70
19 years old.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And under our rules you would be given the right, if you
22 wished, to be excused or defer jury service. I am not
23 suggesting you do that. I appreciate your responsibility. I
24 just wanted to make sure that you were aware of that and that
25 you weren't asking to be excused or deferred.
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1 A. Yes, I know that.
2 Q. Okay. And you are not asking to be excused?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Good.
5 You mentioned that you are a widow. Can you tell me
6 what your husband did?
7 A. He owned his own business.
8 Q. I am sorry?
9 A. He owned his own business. He had his own business. It
10 was rebuilding used equipment, heavy equipment and selling them
11 all over the world.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And can you tell me what the post graduate degree that
14 he received was?
15 A. High school.
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. High school and 6 months of City College.
18 Q. That is you, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what about your husband?
21 A. He was an engineer.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And so you indicated that he received a post graduate
24 degree?
25 A. Yes, but he got his in France, his education was in France.
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1 So I am not too clear on that.
2 Q. Okay. But it was some sort of an engineering degree?
3 A. Yes, he was an engineer, right.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And you mentioned that you had had some previous
6 experience as a juror.
7 A. Grand jury.
8 Q. Did you ever serve on a trial jury?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Now, with respect to the grand jury, how many times
12 were you called to appear on a grand jury?
13 A. Three times, and I preferred that.
14 Q. I am sorry?
15 A. I preferred the grand jury.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Even though I never had experience with this sort of jury.
18 Q. When you were called, did you actually serve on a grand
19 jury?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many times did you actually serve on the grand jury?
22 A. 3 to 4 times. I think it was 3.
23 Q. Okay.
24 On the questionnaire you thought it was 2 times.
25 A. No, I had to look up some information and I found out it
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1 was 3 times.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Can you give me an idea about when you served on a
4 grand jury?
5 A. 5-1/2 years ago.
6 Q. That was the last time you served?
7 A. Yes. Because they said they wouldn't call us for 7 years
8 because I was on for about 2 months.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And was that in state or federal court?
11 A. That was in federal court.
12 Q. Federal. All right.
13 And before that when was the previous time you had
14 served?
15 A. Approximately 4 years.
16 Q. Before that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when you served on that grand jury was that in state or
19 federal court?
20 A. Federal. It was always federal.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And before that about how long was it?
23 A. Approximately the same thing, 4, 5 years.
24 Q. Okay.
25 You said the last time you served you served for two
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1 months.
2 A. About, yes.
3 Q. And how about the other two times that you served?
4 A. They were pretty lengthy but I don't remember. I know it
5 was certainly more than 3 weeks, close to 5 weeks.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Now, let me explain. What a grand jury does is it
8 considers evidence and makes a determination about whether an
9 indictment should be returned, but at trial, such as this
10 trial, first of all, the standard of proof is very different.
11 So at trial, unlike before the grand jury, the standard of
12 proof is the government must prove the charges in the
13 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt at trial based upon the
14 evidence or lack of evidence.
15 Do you understand that?
16 A. Yes, I do very well.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And at trial the fact that there is an indictment is
19 irrelevant. The indictment is not evidence of anything. It's
20 just the way in which a case is initiated and the jury at trial
21 can give absolutely no weight to the indictment because the
22 indictment is not evidence of anything.
23 A. That is right.
24 Q. Do you understand that?
25 A. Yes, we understood that, yes.
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1 Q. And do you understand that now?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And will you apply that rule of law?
4 A. Definitely.
5 Q. And if you were chosen as a juror in this case you would be
6 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
7 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
8 law. Will you do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As you can tell from all of my prior questions, the
11 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
12 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
13 fair and impartial juror, so let me ask you one final time
14 whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about about
15 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
16 fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. Absolutely nothing.
18 Q. I am sorry?
19 A. Absolutely nothing.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Thank you. Could you step out just for a moment?
22 (Juror absent)
23 MR. STERN: Judge, one follow-up I would like to you
24 ask, she said she preferred to be on the grand jury at least
25 that what I heard you say. Is that what you said?
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1 THE COURT: I thought I heard that too.
2 MR. STERN: I would like you to ask her why she
3 prefers the grand jury to a jury.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 If the answer to that doesn't produce anything, I will
6 tell the juror to return on June 18th, all right?
7 MR. STERN: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Let's call the juror back.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Hi, Juror 240. Good to see you again.
12 A. Thank you.
13 Q. Let me ask you won follow-up question. I believe you told
14 us that you preferred the grand jury.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why did you prefer the grand jury?
17 A. Well, there we indict the people and on this I have to
18 really be convinced a person is guilty before I would want to
19 see them get in prison.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. That is my struggle based on that.
22 Q. I have gone over with you the rules of law and as you say
23 the standard before the grand jury is different.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Here at trial the charges in the indictment must be proven
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1 beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the evidence or lack of
2 evidence and my instructions on the law. So if you were chosen
3 to serve as a juror, would you carefully follow those
4 instructions and assess the evidence or lack of evidence and
5 make the determination fairly, impartially, based upon the
6 evidence or lack of evidence whether the charges in this case
7 were proven beyond a reasonable doubt?
8 Will you do that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is there anything that would prevent you from doing that?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right, Juror 240, I am going to ask you to return. You
13 will have to call in on June 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you
14 a slip of paper indicating where you should call on June 18th.
15 Please remember my continue be instructions. Please
16 don't talk about this case at all or anything to do with it.
17 Please remember not to look at, listen to anything to do with
18 the case. Please remember, as I will tell all of the jurors,
19 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I
20 have instructed you on the law, and you have gone to the jury
21 room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice
22 requires that you do that.
23 All right?
24 A. Yes. Thank you.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 THE CLERK: 241.
2 MR. TIGAR: Question 9 on 241, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I was just going to say that there were no
4 further questions on 240, no challenges for cause. And as I
5 said, even if I don't say that this process is exactly that
6 unless I hear a challenge for cause. There are no challenges
7 for cause and no further questions.
8 Let me ask before we call in 241, what -- the
9 government?
10 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, clearly in question 9 the
11 juror has identified his mother, not the most unusual last name
12 in the world. It's rather common. I don't know if this
13 distinguishes this juror from the other jurors we have excused
14 for identifying family members. In our questions obviously we
15 brought this to your Honor's attention so we are aware of that.
16 The only thought we have is that it's a common last name. This
17 is clearly an elderly woman. This juror, I believe, is --
18 THE COURT: Yes, I appreciate that.
19 MR. DEMBER: That is the distinguishing factor here
20 but clearly she identified a relative.
21 THE COURT: The parties can correct me but I believe
22 that to be consistent it's a strike when it's someone who is
23 identified who lives in the same household with a full name, so
24 you could say here is a full name living in this household in
25 this area. That is unlike identifying someone else not living
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1 in the household such as I know another juror or even the name
2 of a parent not living in the same household. And I think you
3 have been consistent with respect to identifying people in the
4 household.
5 MR. DEMBER: Absolutely, your Honor. Clearly that was
6 the only thing I thought distinguished this juror but it's not
7 that much of a distinction frankly. I agree. I assume the
8 defense is hoping to excuse the juror.
9 MR. TIGAR: We would consent to excusing the juror,
10 your Honor. We think it does fall within the rules that we
11 have set up here which sometimes we like how it comes out and
12 sometimes we don't, but it is the rule.
13 MR. DEMBER: And we join in that, your Honor. I just
14 brought to your attention that there was something
15 distinguishable about this particular juror.
16 THE COURT: I know. It's one reason why I didn't
17 begin the morning with including this juror. But you are all
18 right and I will excuse Juror 241.
19 Bring in 241.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Hi.
23 Juror 241, I have gone over the questionnaire and I am
24 going to excuse you at this time so that your service is
25 complete. I very much appreciate your going through the
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1 process, completing the questionnaire, coming in. I realize
2 that these are burdens on you but I very much appreciate your
3 having participated in the process and by doing that you have
4 performed a public service and so I hope you appreciate that
5 and take satisfaction from that.
6 You can go home now and all the paperwork will be
7 taken care of by mail.
8 A. Thank you.
9 (Juror absent)
10 THE CLERK: 243.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Good morning, Juror 243.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. It's good to see you.
16 Since you were here last has anything changed
17 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
18 anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard anything
19 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
20 in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
23 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
24 it's unlikely you will be called to come back before June 18th.
25 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
3 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
4 the case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
7 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
8 prospective jurors?
9 A. No.
10 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
11 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that serving on the jury would cause you
14 economic hardship but that it was not serious hardship. That
15 is fair?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you just explain to me what the economic hardship
18 would be?
19 A. I am a commission salesman so that would affect it.
20 Q. Okay.
21 But it would not be serious economic hardship?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I know this is a personal question but you left out your
24 age on the questionnaire.
25 A. I am 64.
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1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 You mentioned that your father was a businessman. Can
3 you tell me what your father did?
4 A. He owned an mirror factory.
5 Q. When did you leave the Air Force?
6 A. 1966 or 7, I am not exactly sure.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
9 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned that you had previously been on two juries,
12 is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And the question wasn't very good about trying to
15 distinguish among cases, so let me just go over those with you.
16 You mentioned that you served in about 1985 and about 1982 --
17 1992.
18 A. I believe that is right, yes.
19 Q. Taking the earliest case first, was that a civil or
20 criminal case?
21 A. It was criminal.
22 Q. And was it in federal or state court?
23 A. State.
24 Q. And what was the nature of the charge?
25 A. The charge was that a mother had thrown lye on a friend of
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1 her daughter's.
2 Q. And did the jury reach a verdict in that case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the second case that was in the early 1990s, was that a
5 criminal or civil case?
6 A. Criminal.
7 Q. State or federal court?
8 A. State.
9 Q. And what was the nature of the charge in that case?
10 A. It was a robbery.
11 Q. And did the jury reach a verdict in that case?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Is there anything about your jury service, your
15 reactions to the process, the deliberations, the participants
16 in any of those cases, anything about any of those cases that
17 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
18 case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you are a board member of the Rural and
21 Migrant Ministry.
22 Can you tell me what that is?
23 A. Yes, they work to protect immigrants from being exploited
24 by farmers or people that they work for, some of whom obviously
25 are illegal.
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1 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
2 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In responding to one question about law enforcement
5 personnel and whether you would be inclined to believe a
6 witness more or less because they were a law enforcement
7 officer, you said "yes, it seems evident that you would not
8 employ a liar."
9 Let me explain.
10 First of all, the law is that the jurors have to
11 assess the credibility of every witness and they have to listen
12 to the testimony and make a determination whether the witness'
13 testimony is truthful and accurate. A witness' testimony can
14 be wrong for lots of reasons, from differences in perception,
15 memory, and indeed going all the way to the point that some
16 witnesses it is possible might not be telling the truth. It's
17 up to the jury to make all of those credibility findings and I
18 give the jurors some guidance with respect to some of the
19 factors that they can consider in determining the credibility
20 of witnesses. But it is an important principle of law that
21 jurors can't look at a witness and based upon the witness'
22 profession, whether it be law enforcement officer or something
23 else, give that witness more credence than any other witness.
24 They have to listen to the testimony of the witness and assess
25 the credibility of that witness.
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1 No witness comes in with a leg up on their testimony
2 or on their credibility.
3 So do you understand that?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And will you follow that rule?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you have any difficulty following that rule?
8 A. No, I don't, your Honor. Your Honor, I did not mean that
9 to be a flip answer. It's simply that --
10 Q. Tell me what you meant by the answer?
11 A. What I meant by the answer was that in general I think that
12 a law enforcement officer would have less reason to lie than
13 perhaps a witness might, so if both of them said something was
14 diametrically opposed, everything else being equal, I think I
15 would tend to believe the law enforcement officer.
16 (Continued on next page)
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20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. It is possible that witnesses can have many motives, and I
3 give instructions on this also. Those motives can be based in
4 their career, in their interest, in their bias, and part of the
5 credibility determinations that a juror makes is to assess the
6 biases, prejudices, interests, motives, in witnesses
7 testifying, and simply because a person is a law enforcement
8 witness doesn't insulate that witness from all of the
9 considerations that the jurors have to assess with respect to
10 every witness.
11 Do you understand that?
12 A. Yes, your Honor. And I certainly understand that law
13 enforcement officers may also have prejudices.
14 Q. And may have interests in terms of the career or any other
15 considerations. And another instruction I give is it's
16 perfectly proper for defense counsel to challenge the
17 credibility of any law enforcement witness. Do you understand
18 that?
19 A. Certainly.
20 Q. And I've set out for you only some of the considerations
21 that go into assessing credibility, but what I want to
22 understand is whether having explained all of this, you would
23 fairly and impartially assess the credibility of a law
24 enforcement witness in the same way as you would the
25 credibility of any other witness, that you'd look at all of the
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1 elements of credibility and make an assessment of the
2 credibility of that witness in the same way as you would any
3 other witness, and that you would not give the witness any more
4 credibility solely because that witness was a law enforcement
5 witness?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Would you follow that instruction?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you have any question in your mind that you will follow
10 that instruction?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mention that you were somewhat knowledgeable about
13 Islam, and that your knowledge comes from books. Can you tell
14 me what particular books you were thinking about?
15 A. I read a couple of books by Bernard Lewis.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. I would not call my knowledge extensive, your Honor.
18 Q. All right. And could you just describe for me in general
19 what the nature of your knowledge is about Islam?
20 A. Mostly historical. History interests me.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I don't know a great deal about the religion. It would be
23 more historical.
24 Q. All right. Is there anything about what you've read or
25 heard about Islam that would prevent you from being a fair and
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1 impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
4 Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic faith?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You mention that you had read something about this case.
7 Can you tell me what you've read?
8 A. I believe I saw an article in the New York Times about it,
9 possibly a year, year and a half ago.
10 Q. And what do you recall about that article?
11 A. The only thing I really recall about it was a charge about
12 the lawyer.
13 Q. Okay. And what do you recall about that charge about the
14 lawyer?
15 A. I believe the article infers something to the effect that
16 the -- you know, I really don't remember. I remember there was
17 a charge against a lawyer. I'm not sure I remember exactly
18 what it was.
19 Q. Okay. Any case which has received some publicity, it is
20 possible that jurors have seen or read or heard something about
21 the case. And the issue is whether the jurors can put that
22 aside and decide the case based solely upon the evidence or
23 lack of evidence here in court. Is there anything that you saw
24 or read that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
25 juror in this case and deciding this case based solely upon the
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1 evidence or lack of evidence in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Following up on that, it's likely that the case will
4 receive ongoing media attention, and the Court wants to make
5 sure that this case is decided solely on the evidence in the
6 courtroom and not based on things that are said outside the
7 courtroom. So I will instruct the jurors that they must avoid
8 reading about the case in the newspapers, listening to any
9 radio or television reports or reading any Internet coverage or
10 discussion about the case; and I will also instruct the jurors
11 that they are to avoid discussing the case with friends or
12 family during the course of the trial.
13 Would you follow those instructions?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And would you have any difficulty in following those
16 instructions?
17 A. I think not listening to the news for a period of time
18 would be difficult, yes. But I would abide by your rule.
19 Q. Okay. And I should tell you that simply not listening to
20 the news is certainly one option, and probably the safest means
21 of proceeding. But I have no knowledge of how much publicity
22 the case would receive. And my normal instruction is that if
23 you should see or hear something about the case, simply turn
24 away. You certainly cannot deliberately go out and look at,
25 listen to, anything to do with the case or do any research in
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1 connection with the case. All of that would be impermissible.
2 But if in the course of your regular life, something came up
3 and you inadvertently saw something, you would just turn away.
4 You will be in the best position if you're chosen as a juror in
5 this case to see and hear all of what is truly relevant to your
6 consideration. So anything you would see or hear in the paper
7 would be not relevant for you and would only be the smallest
8 glimpse and may not even be accurate. So that's why it's
9 important not to look at or listen to anything in the press.
10 So, will you follow that instruction?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
13 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
14 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
15 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
18 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
19 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
20 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
21 one final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
22 about it or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and
23 impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Thank you, Sir. Could you step out for a
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1 moment?
2 (Juror absent)
3 MR. TIGAR: We would request the Court ask the juror
4 what, if any, was his deceased wife's occupation, if she worked
5 outside the home.
6 Second, he said that he had read books by Bernard
7 Lewis on the Middle East. Mr. Lewis was endorsed by the
8 government as a potential witness in the Rahman trial, although
9 he was never called. The -- neither party has thus far said
10 they're thinking of calling an expert in the Middle East, and I
11 don't think it's going to happen, but I would ask the Court to
12 inquire of the government whether there's any chance that they
13 now know of that Mr. Lewis would be a witness in this case.
14 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we have no intention of
15 calling Mr. Lewis as a witness.
16 THE COURT: I'll ask the witness about his deceased
17 wife's occupation. And no further questions, no challenges for
18 cause? I'll ask him to come back, call back on June 18th.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Hi, juror 243. Could you tell me what your wife's
22 occupation was?
23 A. She was studying for the ministry.
24 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
25 being fair and impartial as a juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Juror 243, you're still in the process of jury selection.
3 I'll ask you to call back on June the 18th. And Mr. Fletcher
4 will give you a slip with the number to call. I ask you to
5 please follow my continuing instructions: Please don't talk
6 about the case or anything to do with it. Please don't look at
7 or listen to anything to do with the case. If you should see
8 anything, just turn away. Remember, as I'll tell all of the
9 jurors, please keep an open mind until you've heard all of the
10 evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've gone to
11 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and
12 justice to the parties requires that you do that.
13 All right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 (Juror absent)
16 DEPUTY CLERK: 246.
17 U.S. MARSHAL: 246.
18 (Juror present)
19 BY THE COURT:
20 Q. Please, have a seat.
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. Good morning, Juror 246. It's nice to see you.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. I had some preliminary questions. Since you were here
25 last, has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as
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1 a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you or have
2 you seen or heard anything that may affect your ability to be a
3 fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
6 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
7 today, it's unlikely that -- in fact, you won't have to call
8 back until June the 18th. Is there anything about that that
9 would present any serious hardship for you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
12 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
13 the case?
14 A. I did read something in the paper.
15 Q. Okay. What did you read in the paper?
16 A. About the lawyer not being able to defend herself.
17 Q. Okay. That article appeared, I believe, before I called
18 you in and talked to you last time. It was something that
19 appeared before you came over into that other big courtroom and
20 filled out the questionnaire. Do you actually recall reading
21 an article about that after you were here last?
22 A. No -- actually, it was the day after, actually, I read it
23 in the Times.
24 Q. Okay. Is there anything else you recall about that
25 article?
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1 A. Nope, that was it.
2 Q. I had told you not to look at or listen to anything to do
3 with the case. If you saw something, just turn away.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Did you -- when you saw the article, did you know that you
6 were reading something about this case?
7 A. No, not really. I was just reading online, the New York
8 Times. It was just a brief, a briefing.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. There was no headline or anything.
11 Q. I'm sorry?
12 A. There was no headline or anything. I was just reading the
13 briefings.
14 Q. Just, what, news clips?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Do you recall anything else about that clip?
17 A. Nope, that was it, that she couldn't be able to defend
18 herself.
19 Q. Okay. If you were chosen -- well, let me add something
20 else. Is there anything about what you saw in that clip that
21 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
22 case and deciding the case based solely upon the evidence or
23 lack of evidence?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It happens that sometimes there is publicity, and if there
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1 is, I tell jurors if they see something, even -- if they see
2 something inadvertently, they should just turn away. I realize
3 this was a small clip and you've described it to me.
4 Will you follow my instructions during the trial, that
5 you're not to look at or listen to anything to do with the
6 case, and if you should see something, you'll just turn away?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is there anything about what you saw that would prevent you
9 from being a fair and impartial juror in the case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It now appears that -- and I may have asked you this
12 before, so bear with me -- you won't have to call back until
13 June the 18th; we will start on June the 21st. Does that
14 present any serious hardship for you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
17 the case, and other than that one article, have you looked at
18 or listened to anything about the case?
19 A. Nope.
20 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
21 A. Nope.
22 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
23 or with any other prospective jurors?
24 A. Uh-huh, yep.
25 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
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1 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You mentioned that you live with relatives. And could you
4 just tell me what each of your relatives does? You say you
5 live with your brother, your sister, your father and your
6 mother?
7 A. Yes. My brother is a physical therapist. My sister is a
8 student. And my mom and dad work in the hospital, maintenance.
9 My dad's a maintenance engineer, and my mom works in the
10 emergency room.
11 Q. Okay, thank you. You mention that you had a cousin who is
12 serving in the armed forces and that that person is in Iraq
13 now. Can you tell me, do you know what branch that person's
14 in?
15 A. I'm not sure, to be honest.
16 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that person's occupation
17 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
18 this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Can you tell me, do you belong to -- and I'm not asking for
21 what religion you are, I'm just asking for any organizations
22 that you belong to, any organizations that you're active in or
23 that you do work with?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No civic, social, religious, charitable, volunteer,
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1 professional or business organizations?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. You mention that you rely on the Internet mostly for
4 news?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what sources on the Internet do you use for news?
7 A. The New York Times. And sometimes the Post.
8 Q. Sometimes the Post?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. You mention that your sister sued someone as the result of
11 a car accident?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what happened in that lawsuit?
14 A. I'm not sure. I wasn't involved in the case. So I'm not
15 sure. She never discussed it with me.
16 Q. I'm sorry?
17 A. She never discussed it with me.
18 Q. Okay. Do you know if the case is still ongoing?
19 A. I believe there was a settlement, but I'm not sure what the
20 amount was or anything.
21 Q. Okay. Did you get involved in the case at all, go to
22 court, deal with any of the other parties, lawyers, anything?
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. Is there anything about that case that would prevent you
25 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You mention that your uncle was convicted. Was he -- do
3 you know if that was in -- how long ago was that?
4 A. Two years ago.
5 Q. And what did -- what was the charge in that case?
6 A. I'm not sure about that.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it was in federal or state
8 court?
9 A. I believe it was federal.
10 Q. And do you know what the sentence was?
11 A. He was a -- he went back to his own country, Italy. He was
12 deported.
13 Q. Where was he deported to?
14 A. Italy.
15 Q. When you were describing this, you said that justice will
16 always prevail. What did you mean by that?
17 A. Well, if you leave it up to the jurors, they'll --
18 Q. I'm sorry?
19 A. I'm not -- I don't know. I don't have an answer for that.
20 Q. Okay. As you think back, did you have any views -- were
21 you aware of the trial -- was it a trial? Was it a plea? Do
22 you know?
23 A. Say that again? Sorry?
24 Q. When your uncle was convicted, was that conviction after a
25 jury trial?
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1 A. That I'm not sure. I don't think it was, though.
2 Q. Did you have any views as to whether your uncle was being
3 fairly or unfairly treated?
4 A. Well, he was told to do something, and then, in a way, when
5 he did it, they deported him. At first they said he wasn't
6 going to be deported. And then he did whatever they told him
7 to do, and then he was deported anyways. So...
8 Q. Do you recall what he was told to do or not to do?
9 A. No -- I'm not sure. I'm not really sure what they had told
10 him. But this is what I was told.
11 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that experience with your
12 uncle and any reactions that you have to that case, including
13 your reactions to the government or the process or the lawyer
14 or lawyers for your uncle, or anything about that process that
15 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
16 case?
17 A. Maybe the lawyers part. As far as the -- like I said, the
18 lawyer had told him to plead a certain degree and he did,
19 saying that you won't be deported. He pleaded, and then he was
20 deported anyways.
21 Q. Okay. How do you think that would affect what you do as a
22 juror in this case, if at all?
23 A. Probably won't believe a word that someone's trying to say
24 to me, or is trying to say.
25 Q. Okay. Do you think you could put those thoughts aside in
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1 deciding this case?
2 A. Possibly.
3 Q. But you have some questions in your mind?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
6 A. Sure. Thank you.
7 (Juror absent)
8 THE COURT: I'm prepared to excuse the juror.
9 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I believe this juror should
10 be excused.
11 MR. TIGAR: The defense consents, your Honor. There
12 was a lot more ahead.
13 THE COURT: Oh, yes. Yes.
14 MR. TIGAR: I think if we get off at this exit, your
15 Honor, we'll be fine.
16 THE COURT: All right. All right.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Hi. Please, sit. Juror 246, I'm going to excuse you. I
20 really appreciate the time that you've taken and your
21 participation in the process; The time to fill out the
22 questionnaire, to respond to all of the questions. And I want
23 you to appreciate that by doing this, you've performed a public
24 service. The system of justice can't exist without people such
25 as yourself who come in and participate in the process. So I
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1 appreciate your participation, and you're excused and you can
2 go home, and all the paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
3 A. Thank you.
4 (Juror absent)
5 DEPUTY CLERK: 250.
6 U.S. MARSHAL: 250.
7 THE COURT: It's 11:30. Why don't we take a break, 10
8 minutes.
9 (Morning recess)
10 THE COURT: We're up to 250?
11 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Hi.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Good morning, Juror 250. It's nice to see you. Let me
17 just ask you some preliminary questions. Since you were here
18 last, has anything changed concerning your ability to serve
19 adds a juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you or
20 have you seen or heard anything that may affect your ability to
21 be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
24 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today,
25 you will not have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
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1 present any serious hardship for you?
2 A. No, not at this moment, no.
3 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe that it would
4 be -- present any hardship for you?
5 A. Well, I do work in a hospital. I do ultrasound. And I'm
6 not sure if that might be a hardship on the department.
7 Q. Okay. Well, let me discuss hardship with you shortly.
8 Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about the
9 case or have you looked at or seen anything about the case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Has anyone spoken with you about the case, and that
12 includes any conversations here at the courthouse or with any
13 of the prospective jurors?
14 A. No.
15 Q. While you were waiting with the prospective jurors, did you
16 or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you mention that you work at a hospital and that you
19 want to make sure that there's no problems for the hospital,
20 right?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. When you were -- and when you were -- when you filled out
23 the questionnaire, you indicated for us that you would not have
24 a serious hardship if chosen for this case. Right?
25 A. I feel it's my responsibility as a citizen to do that.
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1 Q. And I appreciate your saying that, and I explained that in
2 my preliminary instructions also. And if you were chosen as a
3 juror and even if you -- even if you're in the group of jurors
4 from whom the final jurors will be chosen, there's no guarantee
5 that you will be chosen, but if you were chosen and you served
6 on the jury for those four to six months that's projected, we
7 wouldn't sit on Fridays, and of course we don't sit on weekends
8 or in the evening. And the hospital would have to make
9 arrangements for assistance in the sense of the duties that you
10 would have performed, and the hospital should be able to do
11 that. The hospital's not going to give up care for patients
12 because one of their employees is on jury duty. Isn't that
13 right?
14 A. Yes, I agree.
15 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had several degrees,
16 including a liberal arts degree and -- is that an AA in liberal
17 arts?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what's the school you got that from?
20 A. Westchester Community College.
21 Q. Okay. And you had a BA in social science?
22 A. Yes, Mercy College.
23 Q. And an RADCS. What's that?
24 A. I'm a Registered Diagnostic Cardiac Stenographer.
25 Q. And where did you get that?
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1 A. That's actually an exam that you have to sit for.
2 Q. Okay. It's like an accreditation?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And could you just describe what your job duties are?
5 A. Basically, I do echocardiography. That's the ultrasound of
6 the heart.
7 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had been a juror in a
8 criminal case in this court back in 1983, about?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And the jury reached a verdict in that case; is that right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And is there anything about your participation in that
13 case, including your reactions to the parties, your
14 deliberations, the experience with the process, anything about
15 that case that would prevent you from being a fair and
16 impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mention that you belong to two organizations,
19 NYECHO and ARDMS. Could you explain to me what those
20 organizations are?
21 A. It's for ultrasound.
22 Q. I'm sorry?
23 A. They're ultrasound organizations.
24 Q. You mention that you -- can you tell me what newspapers you
25 read?
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1 A. I don't read newspapers. I do read the Sunday paper, the
2 local paper, the Daily News, and, rarely, the Times.
3 Q. And what?
4 A. Rarely, the Times.
5 Q. Rarely, the Times. What local paper?
6 A. Journal News.
7 Q. All right. And do you read those papers on Sunday rather
8 than weekly?
9 A. Just on Sundays.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Occasionally sometimes at work maybe a paper will be around
12 and I'm not doing anything, I might look at it. But usually
13 not.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. We're usually too busy.
16 Q. You mention that you rely mostly on the TV for news. Are
17 there any particular programs that you rely on?
18 A. No. Most of the time -- actually, I think most of the time
19 the news I hear in the morning before going to work, and
20 driving to work, sometimes I'll have the news on.
21 Q. Okay. What stations do you listen to for that?
22 A. WFAN. Sometimes CBS News in the morning.
23 Q. Okay. Do you or any family member or close friend ever
24 been employed by or sought employment with a corrections
25 agency?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you ever traveled outside the United States?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell me where you traveled?
5 A. Europe.
6 Q. Okay. And how often?
7 A. Twice. Once it was a cruise, and once it was a land trip.
8 Q. And were those both sort of vacation, pleasure?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mention that you were not very knowledgeable about
14 Islam. What source of knowledge do you have about Islam that's
15 the basis for your statement?
16 A. Basically, very little. I know some things, about the
17 Koran, but that's about it.
18 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
19 Middle Eastern descent or anyone of the Islamic faith?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is there anything about the charges in this case as the
22 Court has described them to you in the preliminary introduction
23 that I gave across the street that would prevent you from being
24 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Do you know any of the other prospective jurors who have
2 been called in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. It is likely that this case will receive ongoing media
5 attention, and the Court wants to make sure that the case is
6 decided solely on the evidence in the courtroom and not based
7 upon things that are said outside the courtroom. And
8 accordingly, the Court will instruct the jurors that they must
9 avoid reading about the case in the newspapers, listening to
10 any radio or television reports or reading any Internet
11 coverage or discussions about the case, and the Court will also
12 instruct the jurors that they must avoid discussing the case
13 with friends or family during the course of the trial.
14 Will you follow those instructions?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would you have any difficulty following those
17 instructions?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. As you can -- one reason I ask those questions again
20 is because when I asked that on the questionnaire, you said
21 yes, but it was within a series of questions that you had been
22 answering yes, so I thought it was a mistake.
23 A. Oh.
24 Q. And it was a mistake? You will follow those instructions?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
2 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
3 evidence or lack of evidence in this case and in accordance
4 with my instructions on the law. Will you do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
7 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
8 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
9 fair and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one
10 final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
11 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
12 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could you step out for a minute?
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE COURT: All right?
17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the juror did not answer part
18 of Question 19 about the nature of the employment of the -- of
19 her partner. And I would ask you to follow up on that.
20 THE COURT: Oh, all right.
21 MR. TIGAR: And then, I can't read all of what is
22 written at Question 13. Is that AA, computer science? I just
23 don't know what that degree is.
24 THE COURT: What?
25 MR. TIGAR: Question 13, your Honor.
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1 THE COURT: I went over that with her. It reads, AA,
2 liberal arts, then she explained that it was a degree from
3 Westchester Community College.
4 MR. TIGAR: I understand that. I was looking at
5 Question 13, not 12.
6 THE COURT: Oh. It says, computer science, and it
7 says a, computer science -- looks as though she started --
8 MR. TIGAR: Could your Honor just ask if there's a
9 degree there?
10 THE COURT: Yes, sure. Then it goes to her partner.
11 MR. TIGAR: Yes. And then she says she has worked at
12 the hospital for 36 years, three months. That's Question 14.
13 Could your Honor ask her if she's had any other duties other
14 than echocardiography, because I think that echocardiography is
15 relatively new and there may have been other things she's done
16 in the past.
17 THE COURT: Okay, all right. Anything else?
18 MR. DEMBER: No, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: If these questions don't develop anything
20 else, I'll ask the juror to come back on June the 18th. No
21 challenges for cause.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Hi. I need to pick up some follow-up questions. You had
25 indicated that your partner was a two-year college graduate.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And can you tell me what degree?
3 A. Computer science.
4 Q. Okay. And from what institution was that?
5 A. Rockland County, Rockland College.
6 Q. Okay. And what does your partner do?
7 A. Systems programmer.
8 Q. I'm sorry?
9 A. Systems programmer.
10 Q. Okay. And what kind of an organization -- don't tell us
11 what the name of the company is, but what kind of an
12 organization does your partner do systems --
13 A. She's a government employee.
14 Q. Okay. And what branch of the government?
15 A. It's Westchester County.
16 Q. Okay. Anything about that employment that would interfere
17 with your ability to be fair and impartial in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mention that you have worked at your current hospital
20 for 36 years. Did you ever have any other duties or
21 responsibilities other than echocardiography?
22 A. Yeah, I scanned halter monitors and stress testing, EKG's,
23 before that. And occasionally I still do that.
24 Q. Okay. Anything else?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Okay. Juror 250, you're still in the jury selection
2 process. You'll call in on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher
3 will give you a slip of paper to call. And please remember my
4 continuing instructions: Please, don't talk about this case at
5 all or anything to do with it. Please remember, don't look at
6 or listen to anything to do with the case. If you should see
7 something, just turn away. Remember to keep an open mind until
8 you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the
9 law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations.
10 Fairness and justice requires that you do that. All right?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Okay. Good to see you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 (Juror absent)
15 DEPUTY CLERK: 252.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Good morning -- good afternoon, Juror 252. It's good to
19 see you.
20 Since you were here last, has anything changed
21 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or
22 has anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard or read
23 anything that may affect your ability to be a fair and
24 impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
2 chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So you won't have to call
3 back after today until June the 18th. Does that present any
4 serious hardship for you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
7 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
8 the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
11 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any of the
12 other prospective jurors?
13 A. No.
14 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
15 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me follow up on a few of the questions on the
18 questionnaire. You indicated that you are an Internet network
19 security specialist.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you just explain for me in your own words what that
22 entails? I mean, what is it that you do?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And again, don't tell me anything that identifies
25 specifically the organization you're working for or anything
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1 like that. But just tell me what your job duties are.
2 A. Basically, I monitor and support network devices. A
3 network device -- firewall.
4 Q. Can you speak into the microphone?
5 A. Sorry. I basically monitor and support network devices.
6 One of the network devices is called a firewall. This firewall
7 basically permits and denies traffic between the source and the
8 destination. When the user has problems it will open this and
9 try to troubleshoot where the problem is, see why they're being
10 denied, and possibly permit -- you know, should I permit them
11 or deny them to go through. Go through a review. Possibly
12 make changes. That's basically what Internet security is.
13 Q. Okay. Do you do that work for your organization or do you
14 do it for customers of the organization?
15 A. I work for an organization, but they are customers for the
16 organization as well.
17 Q. Right. So you do it for both?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And have you ever been accused of any wrongdoing on
20 the job?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And let me expand that. To your knowledge, has any member
23 of your family or close personal friend ever been accused of
24 wrongdoing on the job?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Have you or any member of your family or any close personal
2 friend ever been in prison?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mention that you had heard about Sheikh Abdel Rahman
5 from TV news. As best you can recall, tell me what you recall
6 hearing?
7 A. I recognize the name on the questionnaire because I had
8 heard the name on TV news, I think it was related to the '93
9 World Trade Center bombing. That's how I recognize the name.
10 Q. Do you recall anything else?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything about that that would prevent you from
13 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. One of the instructions that I give is that anyone who's
16 called as a juror in this case has to put aside anything they
17 may have seen, heard or read about anything to do with the
18 case. What the law requires is not that someone not have seen
19 something in the past, but rather that there's nothing that the
20 jurors have seen, heard or read that will prevent them from
21 being fair and impartial in this case, listening to the
22 evidence and making a determination whether the charges in the
23 case have been proven at trial beyond a reasonable doubt based
24 upon the evidence or lack of evidence presented in court.
25 Will you do that?
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1 A. Yes, I understand it, yes.
2 Q. Is there anything you've seen, heard or read that would
3 prevent you from doing that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case -- and I realize
6 some of this is repetitious, but it's very important -- you
7 would be required to decide the case based solely upon the
8 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
9 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. As you can tell, all of these questions, the fundamental
12 issue, is whether there's anything in your personal history or
13 life experience that would prevent you from being a fair and
14 impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final time
15 whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
16 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
17 and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment, please?
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: All right. No questions?
22 MR. DEMBER: No.
23 MR. TIGAR: No questions.
24 THE COURT: No challenges? Let's bring back
25 Juror 252.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 252, you're still involved in the jury selection
4 process. You will be asked to call back on June the 18th for
5 further information. Mr. Fletcher will give you the slip of
6 paper to remind you about the instructions to call in. Please
7 remember my continuing instructions. Please, don't talk about
8 this case or anything to do so with it. Please remember not to
9 look at or listen to or read anything to do with the case. If
10 you should see something, just turn away. See or hear
11 something, just turn away.
12 Remember, as I'll tell the jurors, keep an open mind
13 until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on
14 the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
15 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that you do that.
16 All right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Good to see you.
19 A. Thank you.
20 (Juror absent)
21 DEPUTY CLERK: 253.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 253. It's nice to see you. Before I
25 go to the questions on the questionnaire, since you were here
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1 last, has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as
2 a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you or have
3 you seen or heard anything that may affect your ability to be a
4 fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
7 chosen will be Monday, June 21st. So after today you won't
8 have to call back until June the 18th. Does that present any
9 serious hardship for you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
12 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
13 the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
16 any conversations here in the courthouse or with any other
17 prospective jurors?
18 A. No.
19 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
20 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In describing on the questionnaire whether you had any
23 serious hardship you pointed out to us that you had a trip, and
24 that you would return on May 24th, and so that issue is
25 resolved?
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1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Could you tell me what kind of law your former husband
3 practiced?
4 A. Civil, environmental.
5 Q. Civil and environmental?
6 A. Cases.
7 Q. Did he practice in a law firm -- don't tell us what firm it
8 was.
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. Was it a big firm, medium-sized?
11 A. Medium size.
12 Q. Okay. You mention that you're now involved with government
13 health care. Do you actually work for a governmental
14 organization?
15 A. Yeah, I do.
16 Q. And is that an organization of federal, state, county?
17 A. State.
18 Q. It's a state organization that's involved in health care?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it involved in any law enforcement?
21 A. It can be, yes.
22 Q. Okay. Are you involved in any law enforcement activities
23 at the agency?
24 A. Not at the present time.
25 Q. Have you been in the past?
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1 A. I have in the past.
2 Q. Okay. What did you do in the past in connection with law
3 enforcement?
4 A. I testified on cases concerning nursing homes and nursing
5 home abuses.
6 Q. I'm sorry?
7 A. Nursing homes concerning nursing homes and nursing home
8 abuses. I've testified, actually, in federal court, state
9 court and local, administrative courts, in our department.
10 Q. Okay. And that was about nursing home abuses?
11 A. It could be nursing home abuses or violations of
12 regulations, federal and state regulations.
13 Q. Okay. And I know that you explained this later on in the
14 questionnaire. Did you testify as an expert witness?
15 A. I did, yes.
16 Q. Did you also testify as a fact witness or just as an
17 expert?
18 A. A fact witness also.
19 Q. And in the course of your testimony, you would be examined
20 and cross-examined?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Is there anything about your experiences and reactions to
23 that process that would prevent you from being a fair and
24 impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Is there anything about your employment by a state
2 organization that would prevent you from being a fair and
3 impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I tell jurors that the case is a criminal case. It's
6 brought in the name of the United States. But the government
7 is entitled to no greater or lesser consideration than any
8 other party in the case. All parties stand as equal in this
9 court of justice. Will you accept that proposition?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You mention that you had served once as a juror in a
12 criminal case in state court, and that you were the foreperson.
13 The case involved drugs, and the jury reached a verdict.
14 A. Yes, it did.
15 Q. About when was that?
16 A. Seven or eight years ago.
17 Q. Is there anything about that experience and with your
18 reactions to the process and the participants in the process,
19 anything about that experience that would prevent you from
20 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mention that your cousin was connected with a federal
23 crime.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe that for me?
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1 A. As much as I know. It was an arrest by the -- as I
2 understand it, the FBI. It had to do -- my family owned a
3 business in -- food business in the South Bronx. And my cousin
4 just came out of federal prison.
5 Q. Okay. And did you attend his trial?
6 A. No. There was no trial, as far as I understand. But I
7 have no involvement.
8 Q. Okay. Did you -- do you know how long he was in prison?
9 A. Over two years.
10 Q. And did you visit him there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is there anything about that experience and your reaction
13 to the charges, to the prosecution, to the government, to the
14 lawyers, anything about that that would prevent you from being
15 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You said that you're not sure if you or anyone close to you
18 belongs to an organization the purpose of which is to advance
19 people's civil liberties and civil rights. Then you listed the
20 National Association of Social Workers. I'm not sure if you're
21 a member or if someone close to you is a member?
22 A. No, I'm the member.
23 Q. You're a member. And when you said you're not sure, is it
24 because you don't know if that's what the organization does,
25 or --
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1 A. Well, because there's one section, when I pay my dues, that
2 asks for legal funds for -- additional funds for some kind of
3 civil liberties, and I was not sure what that was for. It was
4 never clearly described. So it could be that purpose that you
5 just mentioned.
6 Q. Okay. Do you contribute to that fund or --
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. You were asked whether you or anyone close to you is a
9 member of an organization that takes positions on gun control
10 such as the NRA, and you said yes. Were you referring to you
11 or someone close to you?
12 A. In the past, both my husband and I were members of the NRA.
13 I am no longer a member.
14 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that that would prevent you
15 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mention that about 25 years ago, you were trained by
18 the New York State Police. Could you -- in evidence-gathering.
19 Could you just tell me what that entailed?
20 A. We were assigned to live in the barracks and the state
21 police gave us about a week of training on evidence-gathering,
22 including note-taking, interviewing witnesses, making
23 observations. Even, as I recall, how long we kept our notes
24 available. And I think it was very good training.
25 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that course 25 years ago
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1 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
2 this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mention that your job requires you to investigate
5 health care issues. Could you just tell me what you --
6 A. I'm sorry, could you --
7 Q. You probably didn't hear me. I'm sorry. You were asked
8 whether you or anyone close to you has ever been employed in
9 any aspect of the legal field, and you said you're not sure,
10 your job requires that you investigate health care issues. And
11 just tell me what you meant by that.
12 A. I'm assigned to investigate clinics, everything from
13 prenatal care and whether they meet the state and federal
14 requirements. Sometimes I'm required to go to community-based
15 organizations and give them certain money to do health care
16 services. I do migrant health, native American health. And
17 they're all contracts that there are certain requirements
18 that -- in order to get -- be funded.
19 (Continued on next page)
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Is there anything about any of those experiences that
3 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
4 case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can you tell me when you went to Israel and Egypt?
7 A. Over ten years ago. They were separate trips.
8 Q. All right. And can you tell me why you went to Israel and
9 Egypt?
10 A. For Egypt my former husband was a member of an
11 international law group and there was a conference in Egypt and
12 he was a speaker, and Israel was as a tourist.
13 Q. All right.
14 Anything about any of those trips that would prevent
15 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mentioned that you supervised interns from the Middle
18 East.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Iran, Pakistan, and is there anything about that that would
21 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you or anyone close to you worked in the Middle East?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And you mentioned that you had a co-worker from Pakistan,
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1 you had a friend from Israel. Anything about any of those
2 relations that would prevent you from being a fair and
3 impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mentioned that you were somewhat knowledgeable about
6 Islam. Could you just tell me what you meant by that?
7 A. Well, I read several books, Karen Armstrong's book. I have
8 a copy of the Koran, and through my discussions with
9 colleagues, students, friends.
10 Q. Okay. I know this is sort of a general question but could
11 you just describe to me what the nature of your knowledge is
12 about Islam?
13 A. Well, I don't -- I think there are many aspects of it and
14 there are some rules in terms of the female students that I
15 had.
16 Q. In terms of what?
17 A. Some of the female students that I had in government and
18 some of their dietary restrictions, some of their prayer life,
19 which we at times accommodated. In terms of some of their
20 beliefs. But over all in terms of health care it was not an
21 issue. It was universal.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Is there anything about that knowledge that would
24 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case,
25 deciding this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence in this case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. As a result of any of the working relations or friendly
4 relations or anything you have seen, heard or read, do you have
5 any biases or prejudices against any people of Middle Eastern
6 descent or any people of the Islamic faith?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Tell me what you recall hearing or reading about Sheikh
9 Abdel Rahman.
10 A. I am not too sure I read anything. I don't really know
11 what the case was about.
12 Q. I am sorry?
13 A. I really don't know what the case was about.
14 Q. Okay.
15 You had mentioned on your form that you had heard that
16 he was in prison.
17 A. I don't recall it.
18 Q. Okay.
19 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, is there
20 anything about what you have seen, heard or read that would
21 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned that you had a friend who was injured at the
24 World Trade Center. How close a friend?
25 A. A very good friend.
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1 Q. And let me explain to you that this case does not involve
2 9/11. The charges in this case don't involve 9/11. None of
3 the defendants are accused of having done anything in
4 connection with 9/11, so this case is simply not about 9/11.
5 Is there anything about your friend's situation that
6 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
7 case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. One question asked if you knew or if you had read, seen or
10 heard anything about this case and you said that you weren't
11 sure.
12 A. I don't even remember actually what this case was all
13 about. I just have some vague recollection of your discussion
14 the day that we were here.
15 Q. Okay.
16 And I described the case in general for you and you
17 just weren't sure if you had seen something about the case
18 before.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Is there anything in anything that you may have read that
21 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
22 case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You mentioned that you had visited the FBI building in
25 lower Manhattan. Can you tell me about when that was?
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1 A. About 15 years ago.
2 Q. 16 or 15?
3 A. 15 years ago.
4 Q. And what was the purpose of that?
5 A. They had asked me to come down to discuss health care
6 issues, about Medicare, Medicaid, which is federal.
7 Q. All right.
8 Anything about that that would prevent you from being
9 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mentioned that you know FBI agents who work at 26
12 Federal Plaza and that you have attended weddings,
13 anniversaries, birthdays. How many FBI agents do you know
14 there?
15 A. Three, but I am very close with one.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And do you know what your FBI friends do, what
18 divisions they are in, what the nature of their work is?
19 A. In the past my good friend was involved with something
20 about Russians. She speaks several languages.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Do you know what he does now?
23 A. She.
24 Q. She, I am sorry.
25 A. I get the sense that she is maybe involved with some of the
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1 terrorist stuff. She does not discuss it with me.
2 Q. All right.
3 Do you have any reason to believe that she has
4 anything to do with this case?
5 A. No. I don't know but, no.
6 Q. What about the other two friends?
7 A. I haven't seen them in over a year.
8 Q. And do you know what they do?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 Q. I listed or I gave you a list, a long list of names that
11 might come up in the course of the case.
12 Did you recognize any of your friends or acquaintances
13 on that list?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right.
16 Is there anything about your friendship with those
17 people that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
18 juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
21 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
22 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
23 law. Will you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions the fundamental
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1 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
2 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
3 and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one final
4 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
5 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
6 fair and impartial juror in this case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you step out for a moment?
9 (Juror absent)
10 MR. TIGAR: We would ask the court to follow-up and
11 ask the nature of the offense which the cousin was charged with
12 and whether there were any other family members that were
13 involved in that case.
14 THE COURT: Sure.
15 MR. TIGAR: My more serious concern, your Honor, is
16 with respect to her "very close, close friend" who is involved
17 in terrorism work with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
18 It's true that there was a long list that the government
19 proffered but I don't know how complete that was. The
20 government intends to introduce in evidence as to searches that
21 took place at a number of locations with respect to those we
22 have already stipulated, for example, that one agent from each
23 search location will come and sponsor the evidence so we don't
24 have to call 5 or 6. But the names of those other agents may
25 very well come up in the discussion.
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1 A number of the agents whose names we have seen are
2 female agents. In addition to that, your Honor, the witness
3 attends, weddings, anniversaries, birthday parties, according
4 to question 115, with her very close friend and others. And
5 thus there is this prospect that she had socialized with people
6 who would be witnesses in the case.
7 We just don't have enough information at the defense
8 table to evaluate that situation. So we would ask, first, did
9 the government put on its list all of the agents that it can
10 reasonably expect would either testify or have their names
11 mentioned here in connection with the trial of this case and,
12 second, is there some way that we can find out, not for us to
13 know but for somebody to know, the name of the agent who is
14 this juror's very close friend so that the government can -- or
15 somebody can -- make an inquiry. The reason is, your Honor,
16 that we would hate to get to the middle of the government's
17 case and have the juror perk up and say, oh, I know you, I saw
18 you at so and so's party.
19 I am sorry I don't have a solution for that situation
20 except for what I am suggesting but that is our concern.
21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I believe we have listed not
22 only the agents who we expect to all as witnesses but also
23 certainly the agents who assisted in the searches that Mr.
24 Tigar was referring to. Hopefully it will be complete. One
25 suggestion we have in terms of resolving this issue that Mr.
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1 Tigar has raised is simply asking the juror the name of her FBI
2 friend and then we would know for certain.
3 THE COURT: All right. I will ask her for her three
4 friends. The government can check and make a representation
5 with respect to those people.
6 MR. TIGAR: If the government consents to that and
7 it's in accordance with the rules that the court has
8 established about the questions we ask in a courtroom, that is
9 fine with us, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I think that is reasonable. The fact that
11 people have come up with other acquaintances or names on the
12 list, that hasn't been a challenge for cause so it shouldn't be
13 a problem to simply check that out and if I have to call the
14 juror back for some further questions on that should the names
15 pop up I will just call the juror back. No problem with that.
16 I will just ask her the three --
17 MR. DEMBER: No problem, your Honor.
18 MR. STERN: I would like, if you would, if you would
19 ask her a specific or a variation on question 66. I know you
20 went around this but question 66 is the one that asks about law
21 enforcement personnel who are not entitled to greater or lesser
22 belief. If you would ask her that question, but certainly the
23 FBI specifically instead of law enforcement personnel.
24 THE COURT: All right. What I will do is I will ask
25 these questions and I will also tell her please of course do
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1 not talk with any of your friends or acquaintances about the
2 case. Unless the questions come up with something, I will ask
3 the juror to return on June 18th. No further questions, no
4 challenges.
5 And I will ask the government to follow up on those
6 names solely to determine if those are prospective witnesses in
7 the case.
8 MR. TIGAR: May we broaden that to include persons
9 whose names might or would almost certainly be mentioned?
10 Because we stipulated out at least 5 agents from every search,
11 your Honor, but it's clear that through the hearsay that we are
12 going to permit to come in those names may come out.
13 THE COURT: Sure.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Hi.
17 Juror 253, I had just a few follow-up questions.
18 Could you tell me, if you know, what the charge was
19 against your cousin?
20 A. It had something to do with price fixing or kickbacks and
21 it was a federal charge obviously.
22 Q. Anything about that case that would prevent you from being
23 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. We have talked some about your friends who are in the FBI.
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1 It is entirely possible that FBI personnel may be called to
2 testify at trial. Now, if that happens you would have to
3 listen to the testimony of each of those witnesses and assess
4 their credibility in the same way that you do the credibility
5 of any other witness. No witness is entitled to any greater or
6 lesser credibility because of their occupation, and that
7 includes people who are employed by the FBI.
8 Will you follow that instruction?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you have any difficulty following that instruction?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Could you give us the name of your close friend and the
13 name of other two friends?
14 A. I can't remember the other two because I haven't seen them
15 in a while. But my very good friend is Jane Hemenway Sullivan.
16 I think she does not use Sullivan, it's Hemenway.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And you don't recall the names of the others?
19 A. No, not off the bat. I have been at social functions with
20 them though.
21 Q. Recently?
22 A. Within the last year or two. They have also been to my
23 apartment.
24 Q. But you just don't --
25 A. I am just blanking out on it. I can follow up if you need
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1 it.
2 Q. No.
3 A. Boulay is one, but I am not sure how to spell it, Joseph
4 Boulay, and the other one I am just blank. I can see him but I
5 can't think of his name.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Do you understand, I don't have any understanding that
8 any of these people might be involved in the case, testify,
9 their names come up at all. If someone were to-such as any of
10 these people -- were to testify, would you assess their
11 credibility when they testify in the same way as the testimony
12 of any other witness?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And will you do that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right.
17 Could you step out just for one more moment?
18 (Juror absent)
19 THE COURT: The only reason that I asked the juror to
20 step out is I don't see another way of pursuing further with
21 her the name of a person who she doesn't even recall and unless
22 the parties have any other advice for me we will check out her
23 close friend and the other person.
24 MR. DEMBER: I get the feeling maybe she wrote it down
25 somewhere and she has is perhaps at home.
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1 THE COURT: If you want I will have her contact Mr.
2 Grate and provide the additional name.
3 MR. DEMBER: That is my suggestion, your Honor.
4 MR. TIGAR: We were going to say the same thing.
5 THE COURT: That is fine. I will tell the juror to
6 come back on June 18 or call in on June 18. No challenges, no
7 other questions.
8 All right.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Juror 253, you are still in the jury selection process. I
12 will ask you to call in on June 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give
13 you a slip of paper indicating who you should call.
14 Now, there is one other thing that I would like you to
15 follow up for us, and that is the name of the other friend. I
16 really don't want you to do any research or go into any other
17 extensive records or anything like that, but do you have
18 something that might refresh your recollection as to that
19 person?
20 A. Probably my phone book, as simple as that.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Just determine the person's name and please inform Mr.
23 Grate, the jury administrator, of that person's name. You can
24 send him a fax or a letter indicating that person's name. That
25 is all I want you to do.
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1 I want to emphasize that you shouldn't talk to any of
2 these people at all and it's important that you not discuss the
3 case or anything to do with it and so that is why I don't want
4 you talking to these people about anything to do with the case.
5 Do you understand?
6 A. If I am invited to a birthday party with my female friend,
7 is that --
8 Q. You are not required to cutoff any contact. What you are
9 required to do is not talk about this case or anything to do
10 with it or the fact that you have given that person's name or
11 anything like that. You have to leave that completely to us.
12 You can't talk about this case or anything to do with it.
13 Do you understand that?
14 A. Yes. I do.
15 Q. So you are going to look for the remaining person's name
16 and provide that. And you are not going to talk about this
17 case or anything to do with it, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you also have to follow the continuing rule not to look
20 at or listen to anything to do with the case. If you should
21 see something just turn away, all right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And always remember to keep an open mind until you have
24 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law,
25 and you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations.
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1 Fairness and justice requires that you do that. All right?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Get back to Mr. Grate as soon as you reasonably can
4 and we will call in again then on June 18.
5 A. Thank you.
6 (Juror absent)
7 THE CLERK: 254.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Please have a seat, the first chair.
11 Good afternoon.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Juror 254, before I ask you the questions on the follow-up
14 questions, I had some preliminary questions.
15 Since you were here last has anything changed
16 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
17 anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard or read
18 anything that may affect your ability to be a fair and
19 impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No, it has not.
21 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
22 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
23 it's unlikely that you will be called to come back before June
24 is 8th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
2 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
3 the case?
4 A. About a week and a half ago someone briefly just asked me
5 what case I was on. I refused to answer. They briefly
6 mentioned they said they heard about the case and then I
7 quickly told them I couldn't talk about anything and they
8 changed the subject and went on to something else.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Was this someone at work?
11 A. Yes, it happened at work.
12 Q. How did the conversation come up?
13 A. They were just talking about people -- because I had gone
14 to jury duty and people had just broached the subject about it
15 and they were talking, we happened to be comparing, kind of
16 like what they had done in the past and someone had known that
17 I had just gone to jury duty and they were asking me what case
18 I was on. I told them I couldn't talk about it. And I guess
19 they happened to be guessing and at that point I told them I
20 couldn't talk anything about it.
21 Q. You did exactly right.
22 It's the same way with if you see something in the
23 media you just really have to turn away. If anyone should
24 attempt to talk to you about the case, just walk away. Just
25 stop it. You are right not to pursue it and not to talk about
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1 the case.
2 Have you had any conversations here at the courthouse
3 or with any other prospective jurors or while you were waiting
4 with the other prospective jurors did you or anyone you
5 overheard discuss the case?
6 A. No, we just discussed the process, just in terms of the
7 interviews and in terms of some people commented about the
8 length of time waiting or the number of people being called but
9 no one said anything specific about the case.
10 Q. The length of time, anything else you heard about the case?
11 A. I think the only thing people -- I think what most people
12 were kind of curious about is they were saying 700 people being
13 called or they thought we were being called and some people
14 were just talking about how certain people were being called in
15 the morning and afternoon. I don't think anyone said anything
16 specific about the defendant or about saying that, oh, so and
17 so is innocent or guilty or anything. I think it was just more
18 about the process and some people got edgy and wanted to go
19 home.
20 Q. Anything else?
21 A. No. That is all I can think of.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Anything about any of that that would prevent you from
24 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you are employed I believe full-time by
2 a private university?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And you do information technology?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could you describe for me a little more what that entails?
8 A. The employer or my function?
9 Q. What you do for your employer.
10 A. I actually work in an IT unit, basically support for a
11 department in the university. The department's main job is
12 helping students and alumni in the university find employment
13 or internships, full-time employment as well. My function in
14 the department is IT, or information technology, and my job is
15 to support both software and hardware, design data bases,
16 develop certain on line solutions for them, but specifically
17 for that department, that university.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Could you explain to me or tell me what your partner's
20 disability is?
21 A. Well, she recently had a stroke about 2 years ago. Luckily
22 she has gotten much better. She is tended by someone who
23 spends time with her in the morning and she is also assisted by
24 someone who comes in the afternoon who helps my son, take care
25 of my son. She is able to walk and take care of herself. The
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1 only thing she is limited in is in cooking food or -- doing
2 certain things. Like she might need help getting dressed, but
3 a lot of it is attended to by the home attendant, home health
4 aides that come by every day.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And in terms of your care for your own son serving on
7 the jury would not be a hardship for you?
8 A. No, it would not.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And you are not seeking to be excused based on care
11 for your son?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mention that you knew someone who had served overseas
14 in Iraq. Is there anything about that that would prevent from
15 you being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No. I mean, I actually didn't know he was there until a
17 few months ago. I ran into his wife. I know -- I only know
18 what his wife told me and it was just that he is a military
19 police officer. What I was told, I believe it's the 101 over
20 in bag dad but that is all I know. I don't know where he is
21 stationed. I don't even know if anything pretty much else, all
22 that his wife told me. He was supposed to return about a few
23 months ago and he was one of many members that had their
24 service extended by the 90 days. But, no, it would not impact
25 on how I would judge the case.
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1 Q. And you mentioned that you had another friend who was going
2 to Iraq but that you had not seen that friend for about ten
3 years?
4 A. That is correct. Actually it's somebody I actually hadn't
5 seen in a long time. I found out through a friend of a friend
6 that he was actually going to be heading over there. He is in
7 the National Guard, National Reserve, and his unit had recently
8 been called up. They didn't tell me what his function would be
9 exactly what he would be doing, where he would be going. And I
10 haven't been in contact with him so I just found out through a
11 friend of a friend.
12 Q. Okay.
13 I appreciate your bringing it to my attention. Is
14 there anything about any of those relationships that would
15 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You mentioned that you had assisted someone in an
18 administrative hearing last summer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Are you a notary?
21 A. I used to be a notary. I let the license lapse about last
22 January. I was a notary. My role was to help just in terms of
23 helping them with administrative hearing. It was just in terms
24 of helping maintain services that they were having. It was
25 more health-related services. And it was I believe over in --
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1 I can't remember the exact court but it was an administrative
2 trial based in Brooklyn and it was over a period of about 4 to
3 5 months. It ended in summer and the decision was finally made
4 on the case a few months later. But my role was just to help
5 them, helping them represent them. I wasn't actually a
6 specific party in the case.
7 Q. What was the the administrative agency that was involved?
8 A. It was ACS, New York City ACS, and I am trying to remember
9 the other one -- it was another state agency in charge of
10 determining I can't recall the name, but they were in charge of
11 determining who gets certain home health aid services and other
12 additional services.
13 Q. Were these two different hearings that you assisted in?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you assist the same friend or different friend?
16 A. The same.
17 Q. Do you know how those administrative hearings came out?
18 A. They were in favor of them.
19 Q. They were both in favor of your friend?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there anything about your participation in those
22 proceedings that would prevent you from being a fair and
23 impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And is there anything about your reactions to the process
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1 or any of the people who participated in that process, anything
2 about any of that that would prevent you from being a fair and
3 impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No. I mean I expect it to be a lengthy process.
5 Q. Okay.
6 You mentioned that your sister was the subject of
7 abuse sometime ago. Is that who you were referring to when you
8 said that there was someone in your family who was the victim
9 of a crime?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were charges brought in connection with that?
12 A. I was much younger then. I don't remember if charges
13 were -- if there were charges or a formal hearing. What I know
14 of the case was that she was victim of domestic abuse by her
15 live-in boyfriend. No one was aware that it was happening
16 until after the fact and after the authorities were brought in
17 and then all I know is that something happened with the case
18 that she was relocated to another location outside of New York
19 City and since then she hasn't been in New York City. She is
20 much better now, her and her family.
21 Q. Okay.
22 Is there anything about that proceeding or your
23 reaction to it or any of the participants that would prevent
24 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You explained that you have worked with people of Middle
2 Eastern descent. You had a co-worker from Pakistan and that
3 was about 2 years ago?
4 A. That is correct. We have some people who also work -- we
5 have people full-time and part-time. Our part-timers are what
6 we call student assistants. They are students who work for our
7 department on a part-time basis. Some are from India and we
8 have someone also who came from Guyana. But we have many
9 coming from the Middle East now. A lot of it just has to do
10 with the population of the university. It just has become much
11 more diverse over the past few years.
12 Q. Okay.
13 (Continued on next page)
14
15
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17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay. Anything about those relationships that would
3 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mention that you were not very knowledgeable about
6 Islam. Can you tell me, to the extent that you do have
7 knowledge, what the source of that knowledge is, what the basis
8 of the knowledge is?
9 A. Well, some of it has to do with whatever I took a few years
10 ago from my religious class in college. Others, through just
11 communicating with people who were Muslim or stuff, you either
12 just kind of picked up from, you know, seeing historical
13 programs on TV, Learning Channel, History Channel. The
14 basics -- I guess I learned just kind of the basics in terms
15 of, you know, that they believe in, I guess a different god,
16 Allah. That they have certain similar principals. They
17 believe in the Koran, and that they also have similar religious
18 holidays. One example is Ramadan. I don't know exactly when
19 that is. It's a big religion, widespread, and that not
20 everyone who is a Muslim is considered what you would call
21 terrorist or evil. They have roots from Christianity. They
22 themselves even consider Jesus -- Christianity an important
23 figure within religion itself, but not the central. And that
24 it's a very old religion.
25 Q. All right. Now, do you have any biases or prejudices
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1 against any people of Middle Eastern descent or anyone of the
2 Islamic religion?
3 A. No. As I said, I work with people of Middle Eastern
4 descent who are Muslim from various regions. I've had friends
5 in the past, haven't had contact with them in a while, who are
6 either Middle Eastern descent or of -- or Muslim. I wouldn't
7 say I would have any particular prejudices or biases towards
8 them, or their religion.
9 Q. You mention that you had heard or read something about the
10 defendants in this case. Could you tell me what it is that you
11 recall reading or seeing about the defendants in the case?
12 A. I really don't remember the names. What came out was more
13 what I've heard on the news very briefly or might have seen on
14 the Internet. I think it was mostly on the news. It was a
15 long time ago.
16 Basically what I heard was something about someone who
17 was accused of being a terrorist had a lawyer, and the lawyer
18 was accused of either passing information or telling something
19 to that person -- to the person -- I don't recall what it was
20 or -- I know that they said that they had the person under
21 surveillance or something, and that's how they found out.
22 Q. I'm sorry?
23 A. They found out somehow that the lawyer was passing
24 information. I don't know what it was they said that they gave
25 or told, and that supposedly that information -- that
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1 supposedly the person, either the lawyer or someone with the
2 lawyer, said that the government was just upset that the --
3 that this was being represented -- that she was representing
4 this person, he or she was representing the defendant at the
5 time.
6 I can't remember really the names of the people. I
7 just know that I think -- I don't remember if it's the truth --
8 that the person who the lawyer was representing either had
9 something to do with the alleged terrorist acts or something to
10 do -- or that person knew or had some type of connection, and
11 then that lawyer happened to be working on that case.
12 That's all I know.
13 Q. Okay. You also mentioned that you had heard or read
14 something about Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Do you recall what you
15 saw or heard about Sheikh Abdel Rahman?
16 A. Just basically what I've heard on the TV. I would say the
17 radio broadcast, that he had some type of connection allegedly
18 with some type of terrorist act or terrorism, or terrorist
19 group, and that he was of Middle Eastern descent and that
20 somehow he had some type of connection with those groups or the
21 activities, and that supposedly he had some type of, I guess --
22 I can't think of the right word. I guess direction or was an
23 authoritative figure in those groups or activities and times,
24 kind of directed all that. And I heard something about he was
25 blind. At some point, I heard he was in New York City or in
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1 the state at some point.
2 Q. Anything else that you recall?
3 A. I think at some point I heard a few years ago that somebody
4 had or the government had tried to make a case against him. I
5 don't remember if they were successful or not.
6 Q. Okay. Anything else?
7 A. That's it.
8 Q. And you mention that, on the questionnaire, that you had
9 read, seen or heard something about this case. Could you just
10 tell me what you recall hearing?
11 A. I think just coming about -- that there was this issue
12 about the lawyer passing, supposedly, information. I didn't
13 know that they were going to start looking for -- for people.
14 I think the last thing I heard of it was that some charges had
15 been made against the lawyer a long time ago. That's all I can
16 remember about that.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Now, I've gone over with you what you
18 can recall seeing or hearing in the media about various issues.
19 Any case which has received some publicity, the jurors who come
20 to that case may have seen or heard or read something about
21 some matters in connection with the case. But, the press, as I
22 told you in my preliminary instructions, doesn't, despite what
23 they try to do, always get it right. So that what's published
24 may not be correct. And in any event, it's a fundamental
25 principal of law that the jurors who are called to sit in a
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1 trial have to base their decision solely on the evidence or
2 lack of evidence and the Court's instructions on the law. They
3 can't take into account anything that they may have seen, heard
4 or read before. They have to put that aside and ask themselves
5 solely whether the charges in the indictment have been proven
6 beyond a reasonable doubt at trial, based on the evidence
7 that's submitted in the course of the trial.
8 Now, you've seen or heard or read various things. The
9 issue is whether you can put aside what you have seen, heard or
10 read, and decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack
11 of evidence that's received here in court. Can you do that?
12 A. Yes, I believe I can.
13 Q. You say that you believe you can. Do you have any doubts
14 about that? And I ask it that way because I don't know to what
15 degree you have been influenced by anything that you've seen,
16 heard or read. And you've told me your recollections about
17 impressions that you've received over time about various
18 subjects and, so, my question is: Would you be able to put
19 aside everything that you've seen, heard or read and decide the
20 case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence received
21 in court?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you have any doubt about your ability to do that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in the case, would you be
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1 fair and impartial and decide the case based solely on the
2 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were asked whether you believe there's a law
5 enforcement bias for or against people of Middle Eastern
6 descent. And you said that you didn't know. What did you mean
7 by that?
8 A. Well, you hear a lot of stuff from the media. You hear
9 different stuff from different people, but I don't know anyone
10 personally who's been, you know, who's actually been stopped
11 anywhere or been stopped at the airports or profiled. I myself
12 have not experienced it. I'm not of Middle Eastern descent, so
13 I don't know. You hear a lot of things. To tell you the
14 truth, I don't know exactly what's -- I don't know enough to
15 say what's -- to separate what's actually law enforcement
16 practice versus -- if there's something actually being done
17 intentionally against a certain people, Since I'm not within
18 that circle. And since I don't -- that's not my job function.
19 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, your
20 sole responsibility would be to act as the finder of fact in
21 this case and to determine whether the charges in the
22 indictment were proved beyond a reasonable doubt Based on the
23 evidence or lack of evidence in the case. It is not your
24 concern to ask why the charges in the case were brought or
25 anything like that. Do you understand that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And would you decide the case based solely on the evidence
3 or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You mention that you had heard of Al-Jazeera. Do you know
6 watch or listen to Al-Jazeera?
7 A. No. Actually, I heard it through I guess the way a lot of
8 people heard it -- the first place was mentioned through CNN or
9 one of the other major networks when they would discuss how
10 certain information was disseminated or how they obtained
11 certain information about either something about the war or
12 something related to terrorist activities, that they thought
13 they'd gotten it from. I've never been too -- like to their
14 website. I've heard they have one, and I know they have a
15 station that's similar to -- they're like the CNN of the area.
16 But I don't actually watch it. What I've actually heard is
17 just through the -- whatever the news firms have actually
18 talked about them.
19 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
20 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
21 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
22 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
25 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
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1 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
2 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
3 final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
4 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
5 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
6 A. I could definitely be impartial. There isn't anything
7 that's keeping me from being as objective as I can.
8 Q. Will you be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. Could you step out for a moment?
11 (Juror absent)
12 MR. TIGAR: No questions? No challenges?
13 MR. DEMBER: No questions, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. No questions, no challenges.
15 Bring back Juror 254.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. All right. Juror 254. You're still in the jury selection
19 process. So I'll ask you to call in on June the 18th.
20 Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper Just giving you the
21 instructions. It's very important that you continue to follow
22 my instructions. Remember, please, don't talk about this case
23 or anything to do with it. As you've done in the past, if
24 anyone asks you about jury service or anything like that, just
25 turn away. The judge has told you not to talk about it. And
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1 that's a simple and direct answer. Remember not to look at,
2 listen to, read, anything to do with the case. If you should
3 see something, just turn away. Remember, as I'll tell all the
4 jurors who are selected, remember to keep an open mind until
5 you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the
6 law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
7 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
8 that you do that. All right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Have a good day.
11 A. Thank you.
12 (Juror absent)
13 THE COURT: All right. We'll break for lunch. We
14 went a little longer, so please be back at 2:45. Have a good
15 lunch.
16 (Luncheon recess)
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2 (In open court)
3 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. Please be seated.
4 All right, it appears that 167 is here. 256 is on the way.
5 258 is here. 259 is on the way. 262, 264, 266, 267 are here.
6 268 is on the way. 278 is here. So the first juror will be
7 Juror 167.
8 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I was just going to ask the
9 Court if the letter that we submitted last night could be
10 docketed in the case. I don't know if the Court is doing that
11 with all the letters. But we submitted a letter on the issue
12 of Abdel Rahman's conviction last night sometime between 6:00
13 and 8:00 p.m. We were just asking that it could be placed in
14 the court docket.
15 THE COURT: You're welcome to file it.
16 MR. BARKOW: The Clerk does not accept letters.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Yes.
18 MR. BARKOW: We submitted one by hand and one by fax
19 so as to perhaps facilitate that.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. BARKOW: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: I'll ask Mr. Fletcher to follow up on that
23 letter.
24 DEPUTY CLERK: I don't have it.
25 MR. BARKOW: I'll bring another copy.
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1 THE COURT: Okay, are the parties ready for Juror 167?
2 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Bring in Juror 167.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Hi.
7 A. How are you doing?
8 Q. Good afternoon Juror 167. It's good to see you. Let me
9 ask you some preliminary questions. Since you were here last,
10 has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a
11 juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you or you've
12 seen or heard or read anything that may affect your ability to
13 be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what's that?
16 A. Physically, I've been getting headaches. So I need to see
17 what's going on with my health.
18 Q. I'm sorry, could you keep your voice up? You've been
19 getting headaches.
20 A. Yes. And I need to check out what's going on with my
21 headaches. I haven't been feeling well.
22 Q. Haven't been feeling well. Do you have any doctor's
23 appointments scheduled?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When is that?
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1 A. On the -- hold on. On June 14th.
2 Q. June 14th? When did the headaches start?
3 A. I'd say about three to four weeks ago.
4 Q. Was that before you came in and filled out the
5 questionnaire?
6 A. No, before that. Before that.
7 Q. Before you filled out the questionnaire?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. On the questionnaire, you were asked if you had any
10 physical, medical or emotional problems that might make it
11 difficult for you to, or uncomfortable for you to serve as a
12 juror, and you told us no.
13 A. I thought it was just a headache.
14 Q. All right. And you just thought it was a headache, and
15 it's continued?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How often do you get these headaches?
18 A. Well, they're just coming every other day, and when I went
19 to the doctor, he said it was stress.
20 Q. I'm sorry?
21 A. It was coming every other day. It would come and go and
22 come and go, and when I went to the doctor, he said it was
23 stress.
24 Q. Have you been to the doctor since you filled out the
25 questionnaire?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the doctor told you that these were stress headaches?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: Parties, do you want me to pursue it
7 further?
8 MR. DEMBER: No, your Honor.
9 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. I'll excuse the juror for
11 cause. Call back 167.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Juror 167, I'll excuse you. And you can go home now and
15 all of the paperwork will be taken care of by mail. And I
16 appreciate your filling out the questionnaire and participating
17 in the process.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. Okay.
20 (Juror absent)
21 DEPUTY CLERK: 258.
22 MR. STERN: Judge, 257, he or she is not coming down?
23 THE COURT: I don't know. It says excused on my list,
24 but I don't know if they've called Juror 257 or not.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 258. Could you speak into the
3 microphone?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Good afternoon, Juror 258. It's nice to see you.
6 Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning your
7 ability to serve as a juror in this case or has anything
8 occurred to you or have you seen or heard or read anything that
9 may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in
10 this case?
11 A. Well, I tell you the truth, in this particular situation I
12 think I would favor the prosecution.
13 Q. You know, people -- why do you say that, by the way?
14 A. Well, the way the circumstances is today, these people
15 here, they're out to protect our lives, and -- I tell you the
16 truth, it will be very, very hard for me to believe otherwise
17 than that they didn't do the right thing. I mean, that's my
18 point of view on the situation. So only be fair to the ones
19 that are accused of this particular thing that I would be off
20 this case.
21 Q. Could you put your views aside and be fair and impartial in
22 the case?
23 A. I tell you the truth, I don't think so.
24 Q. Okay. Can you step out for a moment?
25 A. Yes.
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1 (Juror absent)
2 THE COURT: Excuse the juror?
3 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
4 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 (Juror present)
7 BY THE COURT:
8 Q. All right. Juror 258, I'll excuse you. I appreciate your
9 participating in the process. You can go home now and all of
10 your paperwork will be taken care of through the mail.
11 A. Okay. Thank you.
12 (Juror absent)
13 DEPUTY CLERK: 262.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 262.
17 A. How you doing?
18 Q. It's good to see you. Let me ask you a few more questions
19 before following up on the questionnaire. Since you were here
20 last, has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as
21 a juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you or have
22 you seen or heard, read anything that may affect your ability
23 to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
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1 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
2 it's unlikely you will be called to come back before June the
3 18th. Does that present any serious hard ship for you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
6 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
7 the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
10 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
11 prospective jurors?
12 A. No.
13 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
14 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You said that you didn't know if the case would present a
17 serious hardship for you?
18 A. Yes. Moneywise.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. I'm raising up three kids with my wife, and I know I have a
21 job, but I didn't talk about my -- talk to my job about the
22 money situation, to see if they paid, if I'm on jury or not.
23 Q. Okay. And do you have any basis to know one way or another
24 if your employer would pay you while you were on jury duty?
25 A. I'm not sure.
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1 Q. Okay. Let me -- if your employer didn't pay, this case
2 would be a serious economic hardship?
3 A. Oh, yeah.
4 Q. Okay. Let me go over the other questions and then come
5 back to the issue of the serious hardship. You mentioned that
6 your wife was a cashier. Can you tell me what kind of store
7 your wife works -- don't tell me the particular store.
8 A. A supermarket.
9 Q. Okay. And can you tell me what your parents did?
10 A. My mother died when I was young, and I'm not sure. My
11 father was a -- he worked in a supermarket, too.
12 Q. You mention that your father was in combat.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you know what service he was in?
15 A. He was in the Army.
16 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
17 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know what rank your father had?
20 A. No, I don't. He was a regular -- he didn't have rank. He
21 was a soldier, I think.
22 Q. And he was -- okay. You mentioned that someone in your
23 family brought criminal charges against someone?
24 A. My -- make a long story short, my stepmother had -- let's
25 see, my stepmother had auto protection, and my father went
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1 against that.
2 Q. Was your father prosecuted for that?
3 A. He went to jail for a couple of days. But that was it.
4 Q. Is there -- and you mentioned that someone in your family
5 had been in jail. That's the --
6 A. My father.
7 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that situation that would
8 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mention that one of your children's friend's father
11 died in 9/11.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. This case doesn't concern 9/11. The defendants are not
14 accused of having done anything in connection with 9/11.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. And so this case doesn't involve 9/11.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Is there anything about your -- the person whom you knew
19 who died in 9/11 or anything about 9/11 that would prevent you
20 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. It's likely that this case will receive media attention,
23 and I want to make sure that this case is decided solely upon
24 the evidence that's received here in the courtroom and not
25 based on any things that are said outside the courtroom. And
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1 I'll tell the jurors that they must avoid reading about the
2 case in the newspapers, listening to any radio or television
3 reports or reading any Internet coverage or discussion about
4 the case; and I will also direct that they avoid discussing the
5 case with friends or family during the course of the trial.
6 Would you follow those instructions?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Would you have any difficulty following those instructions?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I ask that because on the questionnaire, you had said it
11 would be difficult for you, but I thought it might be a mistake
12 because it was in a line of questions that you were answering
13 yes to.
14 A. Oh, okay.
15 Q. So you will follow that instruction?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
18 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
19 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
20 law. Will you do that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
23 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
24 history or life experience that would prevent you from acting
25 as a fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you
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1 one final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
2 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
3 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. I would be fair.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I know you've raised an issue with respect to
6 economic hardship.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And I said I was going to get back to it. But before I do,
9 I'd like to talk to all of the parties, so if you could just
10 step out for a moment?
11 A. Yeah.
12 (Juror absent)
13 MR. DEMBER: No questions, your Honor.
14 MR. TIGAR: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
15 (Off the record)
16 MR. TIGAR: We have no questions, your Honor. And we
17 would ask that the juror check and see. He does indicate he's
18 a member of a labor organization, and there may be a provision
19 in the contract.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'll certainly ask him to do that.
21 And I'll tell him that, as we've done with other jurors, that
22 he remains in the process of jury selection; to check with his
23 employer if he would be paid. And tell Mr. Grate what the
24 answer to that is.
25 Okay, no further questions and no challenges. And
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1 we'll wait and see what his answer is.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Hi again, Juror 266.
5 A. Hi.
6 Q. You are -- you're still in the jury selection process. I
7 appreciate what you've brought to my attention about the issue
8 of whether you'll be paid or not.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And it may well be that your employer will pay you, that
11 that's part of the policy or contract or whatever that the
12 employer has. So it may be that you'll be paid. But I don't
13 know. So -- and if it is a severe economic hardship because
14 you're not paid, then I would excuse you. But right now,
15 you're still involved in the jury selection process and you
16 should check with your employer. So first, since you're still
17 involved in the jury selection process, the next step is you
18 will call in on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher will give you a
19 piece of paper to explain, to call the jury administrator on
20 June the 18th to follow up on the jury selection process. But
21 before you -- even before then, I'd ask you to check promptly,
22 as soon as you can.
23 A. As soon as I can.
24 Q. With your employer as to whether your employer will pay
25 you. Don't tell the employer what the case is about or
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1 anything like that. Just that you're in the process of jury
2 selection for a long trial which is expected to last four to
3 six months, and ask if the employer will pay you for that
4 amount of time. And then report back the answer to the jury
5 administrator, Mr. Grate. That's the name on the sheet of
6 paper.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. And the telephone number will be there. When you phone
9 Mr. Grate, Mr. Grate can give you any other instructions about
10 whether to fax a note or write a note or something. But call
11 Mr. Grate after you've spoken to your employer, all right?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Now, because you're still involved in the jury selection
14 process and if all of this works out, you will be calling back
15 on June the 18th, I want you to make sure that you follow
16 carefully all of my continuing instructions. Please, don't
17 talk about this case or anything to do with it. Please
18 remember to -- don't look at, listen to, read, anything to do
19 with the case. If you should see something, just turn away.
20 Remember, as I'll tell the jurors who are finally
21 selected, keep an open mind until you've heard all of the
22 evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've gone to
23 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and
24 justice to the parties requires that you do that. All right?
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. It's good to see you. Have a good trip home.
2 A. Okay.
3 (Juror absent)
4 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE CLERK: 264.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Please have a seat.
5 Good afternoon, Juror 264. It's good to see you.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I have some preliminary questions before I turn to some
8 follow-ups on the questionnaire.
9 Since you were here last has anything changed
10 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
11 anything occurred to you or have you seen or read or heard
12 anything that may affect your ability to be a fair and
13 impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
16 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
17 it's unlikely you will be called to come back before June 18th.
18 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
21 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
22 the case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
25 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
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1 prospective jurors?
2 A. No.
3 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
4 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You had said on your questionnaire that you would not be
7 paid a salary while you were on jury duty?
8 A. Did I? I will be. My job pays me.
9 Q. Yes, that is what I thought. I thought that was a mistake.
10 This case would not be a serious hardship for you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You mention that you are in the public service and
14 that you are a supervisor. Can you tell me without telling me
15 the specific agency, do you work for a government agency?
16 A. I work for a city agency.
17 Q. You work for an agency of the City of New York?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And what kind of services does that agency do? What
21 kind of work does the agency do?
22 A. Provide transportation.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And you are a supervisor?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. That organization doesn't have anything to do with law
2 enforcement, right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you belong to a union. The name of the union you put
5 down was SSSA. What does that stand for? You can tell me.
6 A. Are you sure?
7 Q. Yes, I am sure.
8 A. Well --
9 Q. If you know.
10 A. It does, but it will tell you --
11 Q. That is all right. If it tells me the name of the agency
12 for which you work, that is okay.
13 A. Okay, Surface and Subway Supervisor's Association.
14 Q. It's a big organization. Okay.
15 And you mention that you have a niece who is in the
16 Army. Is she currently in the Army?
17 A. She is in the reserves. She just got out of basic
18 training.
19 Q. All right.
20 And you mentioned that you have a friend who is
21 currently in Iraq?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And can you tell me is that friend in the service?
25 A. Yes, he is.
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1 Q. And do you know how long he is going to be there or how
2 long he has been there?
3 A. He has been there since February and I am not sure how
4 long.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Is there anything about your niece's service in the
7 Army or your friend's service in Iraq that would prevent you
8 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mentioned that you previously have been a juror in a
11 criminal trial in the Bronx for attempted murder and the jury
12 reached a verdict in that case, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is there anything about that jury service, or your
15 reactions to it, your participation in the process, your
16 reactions to any of the parties in the case, anything about
17 that case that would -- any of the participants in the case,
18 anything about that case that would prevent from you being a
19 fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You mentioned that you had a family member who was the
22 victim of a serious crime. Who was that?
23 A. Of --
24 Q. I will try to keep my voice up and if you also try and keep
25 your voice up.
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. You mentioned that you had a family member who was a victim
3 of a serious crime. You don't recall?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Maybe it was a mistake when you pointed out that you had a
6 nephew who was in prison.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. But the first question was essentially have you or anyone
9 close to you been the victim of a serious crime, and you said
10 yes and checked off family.
11 A. I misunderstood the question then.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You did point out that you have a nephew who is in
14 prison.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is now serving a ten-year sentence. Have you visited
17 your nephew?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that is for a state court conviction?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when did that trial occur?
22 A. That was '97 or '98.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And have you visited your nephew in prison?
25 A. Yes, I have.
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1 Q. And how often do you visit your nephew?
2 A. Maybe once a year.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Is there anything about that, about the conviction --
5 by the way, did you attend the trial?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Is there anything about what happened to your nephew and
8 your reactions to it, and your reactions to the prosecution, to
9 the defense counsel, to the trial, to the conviction, to the
10 jail, anything about any of that that would prevent you from
11 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
14 listen to the evidence in this case and decide this case based
15 solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and without any bias
16 or prejudice for or against the government or the defendants?
17 A. Yes, I would.
18 Q. You had said that there was -- there was a question that
19 you didn't understand so let me explain it to you. I asked
20 whether you or essentially anyone close to you has ever
21 belonged to an organization which exists to defend people's
22 civil liberties and civil rights, and you said you didn't
23 understand it. What I was looking for was do you or anyone
24 close to you belong to any kind of organization that defends
25 civil liberties or civil rights? Some organizations which come
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1 to mind are, for example, the American Civil Liberties Union,
2 and there are other organizations like that.
3 Do you or anyone close to you belong to any such
4 organization?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 And of course -- well, neither you nor anyone close to
8 you belongs to an organization that takes positions on gun
9 control, either for or against, like the National Rifle
10 Association?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You mentioned that your sister has a degree in
14 criminal justice.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What does your sister do?
17 A. She is a correction officer.
18 Q. She is --
19 A. A captain in the corrections department.
20 Q. Keep your voice up.
21 A. She is a captain in the corrections department.
22 Q. All right.
23 And you have pointed out that you have two sisters,
24 one of whom is retired and one of whom is presently a captain?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And they work for the -- is it the New York City Department
2 of Corrections?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And can you tell me what -- you mentioned that your
6 two brothers-in-law are lawyers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell me what kind of law they practice.
9 A. Criminal.
10 Q. Okay.
11 And they defend people accused of crimes, is that what
12 they do?
13 A. I believe so. Yes.
14 Q. They are not prosecutors, they are defense attorneys?
15 A. Yes. I believe so.
16 Q. And you also mentioned that you have a friend in the Police
17 Academy?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell me, is that a close friend or an acquaintance?
20 A. A close friend.
21 Q. A close friend, okay.
22 Now, you plainly have friends and relatives who are
23 involved in various aspects of the criminal justice system.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And is there anything about any of those relationships, or
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1 anything that you have spoken with any of those people about,
2 anything that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
3 juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, one of the instructions that I give is that no witness
6 is entitled to any greater or lesser credibility solely because
7 of their occupation. So it follows that no law enforcement
8 officer can entitled to any greater or lesser credibility
9 solely because of the occupation of that person.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And will you follow that rule of law?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You mentioned that you have co-workers who are of Middle
14 Eastern descent but you don't know what countries they are
15 from.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. How many co-workers?
18 A. Plenty.
19 Q. A bunch?
20 A. There is a lot.
21 Q. A lot, okay.
22 Do you have any biases or prejudices against any
23 people of Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic
24 faith?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. I asked you a question about whether you were knowledgeable
2 about the history and practices of Islam and you said you were
3 not very knowledgeable and you said you didn't understand the
4 question.
5 What I was trying to get at is do you know anything
6 about the history and the practices of the religion of Islam?
7 A. Not much.
8 Q. Not much.
9 If you can recall anything for me, what do you know
10 about Islam? I know it's not much but anything that you can
11 recall now?
12 A. Not really.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Do you recall reading any books or articles or
15 watching any programs about Islam?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No, okay.
18 It is likely that this case will receive attention in
19 the press and I want to make sure that this case is decided
20 solely on the evidence presented here in the courtroom and not
21 based on anything that is said or written outside the
22 courtroom. So I will instruct the jurors that they are to
23 avoid reading about the case in the newspapers, listening to
24 any radio or television reports or reading any Internet
25 coverage or discussion about the case, and I will direct the
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1 jurors to avoid discussing the case with friends or family
2 during the course of the trial.
3 Will you follow that instruction?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Will you have any difficulty following that instruction?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay.
8 I thought that that was right. You had answered the
9 question on the questionnaire that you would have difficulty
10 but it came in a string of questions where you were answering
11 "yes" and I thought it might be a mistake.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. It was a mistake?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You will follow my instructions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right.
18 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
19 be required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
20 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
21 law. Will you do that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
24 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
25 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
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1 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
2 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
3 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
4 fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Could you step out just for a few moments?
8 A. Can I say one thing?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I have travel plans in June.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. The 22nd.
13 Q. Please keep your voice up. You have travel plans on --
14 A. June 22nd, returning on the 27th.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Can you rearrange those plans? Let me tell you where
17 we are. I mentioned that you wouldn't have to call back until
18 June 18th. The final jury selection and the beginning of the
19 trial is June 21st. So it would be a problem not to be able to
20 be here on June 22nd.
21 A. Well, actually the 23rd and 24th and 25th I would be out of
22 town.
23 Q. We don't sit on Fridays and we don't sit obviously over the
24 weekend, so on the first week we would sit from -- likely from
25 June 21st to June 24th, and there is always the possibility
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1 that on the first week we would sit on Friday, June 25th. So
2 could you arrange to make your trip before June 18th or --
3 A. It's already paid for and it's a conference for that
4 particular week.
5 Q. Would you be prepared to -- there are some jurors who are
6 prepared -- because this is a fairly long trial -- to put over
7 plans, including conferences, until after the trial is over and
8 to get credit for their tickets or turn in their tickets, but
9 it would really be a problem not to be here during that first
10 week of trial. So you have to tell me whether you could put
11 that over, defer your trip, not do it if in fact you were
12 called as a juror. It's always possible that if you are in the
13 pool you won't be picked on June 21st. But you have to tell me
14 whether that is an unbreakable commitment that would be a
15 hardship for you not to go forward with it.
16 A. It would be.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. It's plans that I had for a year now.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Can you step out?
21 (Juror absent)
22 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
23 MR. STERN: We agree with that.
24 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: The juror was very nice about it, which
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1 plainly indicates that the juror is not inclined to change
2 those plans.
3 (Juror present)
4 BY THE COURT:
5 Q. Please have a seat.
6 Juror 264, I will excuse you. I appreciate your
7 participating in the process and completing the questionnaire
8 and helping me to understand your answers and I want you to
9 understand that you performed a public service by participating
10 in the process, so you should take satisfaction from that. You
11 can go home now and all of your paperwork will be taken care of
12 by mail.
13 A. Thank you, your Honor.
14 (Juror absent)
15 THE CLERK: 266.
16 MR. STERN: Judge, while we are between jurors, if I
17 can make I guess a request or suggestion, which is this juror,
18 unlike the hundred or so others we have seen, seemed to me to
19 be genuinely frightened about giving you information. I took
20 it to be that way, that is why she didn't want to tell you what
21 the union was. Maybe I misunderstood it.
22 THE COURT: I really took that as responding to
23 perhaps my overcautious statements to her. I explicitly told
24 her don't tell me, and I specifically told her don't tell me
25 the agency.
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1 MR. STERN: You may be right.
2 THE COURT: And so she looked at me --
3 MR. STERN: She thought she was violating your rule is
4 what you think it was?
5 THE COURT: Oh, absolutely, because what she actually
6 said was in words or substance are you sure? It really will
7 tell you what you just told me you didn't want me to tell you.
8 MR. STERN: I may have misunderstood. I thought she
9 was frightened. You may be right.
10 THE COURT: Not at all. She was quite pleasant and
11 responsive.
12 MR. STERN: I agree with that.
13 MR. TIGAR: An additional thought, your Honor, this
14 juror was wearing a hat that covered a large part of her face
15 and it was very hard for us from our viewpoint to see her
16 demeanor. If that should happen again I would hope the court
17 would ask the juror to remove the head gear that places us in
18 that position.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Sure.
20 Juror 266.
21 (Juror present)
22 BY THE COURT:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 266. It's good to see you.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. I have some preliminary questions and then some follow-up
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1 questions.
2 Since you were here last has anything changed
3 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
4 anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard anything
5 that may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror
6 in this case?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
9 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
10 you won't have to call back until June 18th. Does that present
11 any serious hardship for you?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
14 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
15 the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
18 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
19 prospective jurors?
20 A. No.
21 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
22 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Will you be paid your salary while you serve on jury
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1 duty?
2 A. I am unaware. I wouldn't know.
3 Q. Okay.
4 You indicated that this case would not be a serious
5 hardship for you and it would not cause you an economic
6 hardship, is that right?
7 A. No, I don't think so.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And that is irrespective of whether your employer pays
10 you?
11 A. Well, my wife works. We would manage.
12 Q. Okay.
13 Your spouse, you indicated, was I believe both
14 employed and a student?
15 A. Yes, as am I. We both are.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Can you tell me, your spouse, what the nature of the
18 employment is? You put down finance. Could you explain to me
19 a little more?
20 A. Yes, she is an insurance underwriter.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And you mentioned that you also go to school?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And can you just tell me what you are going to school for?
25 A. Management information technologies and I am going for my
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1 Masters.
2 Q. That is part-time?
3 A. Yes, evenings.
4 Q. And your regular employment is in an advertising business
5 as a network administrator?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me what a network administrator is?
8 A. Just basically we keep their systems running, that is
9 network support, keep the e-mail up. If there is a problem
10 it's our job to resolve it as far as the systems are concerned.
11 Q. Okay.
12 You mentioned that your parents are deceased. Your
13 father was a director. Can you tell me -- don't tell me the
14 company but what did you mean by a director?
15 A. He worked in real estate management and he was a director
16 of the real estate management.
17 Q. He was a director of a company that did real estate
18 management?
19 A. He was a director at a company that did real estate
20 management, yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And your mother was a teacher. What level did she
23 teach?
24 A. 8th grade.
25 Q. You mentioned that your hobbies include sports and X-Box
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1 and I wasn't sure what X-Box was.
2 A. That is a video game system.
3 Q. Okay.
4 You mentioned that your regular source of news is the
5 Internet and can you tell me what particular source of news on
6 the Internet?
7 A. I usually just go to different Web sites. NY Times, Daily
8 News, CNN.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Q. You mention that your undergraduate was a criminal justice
11 major. Was there any particular reason that you didn't get
12 into the field of criminal justice out of school?
13 A. I didn't think it paid enough when I got out of school.
14 Q. Okay.
15 I asked you a series of questions about some of the
16 kinds of evidence that might be admitted in the case. One of
17 those kinds of evidence is recorded conversations between
18 attorneys and their client, and you said that that would
19 prevent you from rendering a fair and impartial verdict.
20 Let me explain something to you.
21 With respect to any of the evidence in the case, the
22 court decides on whether the evidence is admissible or not
23 admissible. If it's admissible, it's presented in court
24 because as a matter of law it's admissible and so once it's
25 admissible and once it's admitted in court, then it's for the
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1 jury to consider that evidence and determine whether the
2 government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
3 reasonable doubt based upon the evidence or lack of evidence in
4 court. It's for the court to decide whether to admit the
5 evidence, whether it is legally admissible or not. And it's
6 not for the jury to make that determination or to second guess
7 the determination of whether the evidence is admissible or not
8 admissible.
9 It's for the court to make that determination and, as
10 a matter of law, it's up to the jury to decide the case based
11 upon all of the evidence that is admitted in court. It's not
12 for the jury to say I don't like that evidence or I like that
13 evidence better than others based upon issues of law. It's for
14 the jury to assess all of the evidence that is admitted before
15 the jury and determine whether based on all of that evidence
16 the government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond
17 a reasonable doubt.
18 Do you understand that?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And so having listened to that and thought about that, is
21 there anything about the fact that some of the conversations
22 might be recorded conversations of conversations between
23 attorneys and their client, anything about that that would
24 prevent you from considering that evidence and deciding the
25 case based upon all of the evidence and my instructions on the
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1 law?
2 A. In all honesty if the conversations between the attorney
3 and the client were thought to be done in private and they
4 weren't, then I would have some problems with it. I mean --
5 Q. I'm sorry?
6 A. If the conversations were thought to be done in private,
7 like if the client went through his attorney and they were
8 speaking about their case and that conversation was recorded, I
9 would have some problems with it because if you can't be
10 upfront with your attorney, who can you be upfront with?
11 I don't know the circumstances behind whatever
12 so-called recordings there might be but, again, you know, if I
13 go see an attorney I might tell him, hey, I am guilty, this way
14 he can, I guess, handle the case or take the case in a certain
15 direction as far as it will be better to plead or it will be
16 better to fight it. But if that conversation is not
17 confidential, then I just have some fundamental problems with
18 it.
19 Q. Okay.
20 The issue is really one of law and, as I say, it's a
21 question of law as to whether that evidence can be admitted or
22 not. And so as a matter of law if the evidence is before you,
23 you say you have some problems with that kind of evidence, but
24 the issue is really one of whether you would be able to follow
25 my instructions on the law. And the law is when the evidence
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1 is admitted it's for the jury to consider the evidence or lack
2 of evidence. It's not for the jury to make the determination
3 of whether as a matter of law that evidence should have been
4 admitted or not admitted.
5 So the jury is faced with that evidence and the jury
6 has to assess that evidence and determine whether based on that
7 evidence and all of the other evidence in the case the
8 government has proven the charges beyond a reasonable doubt.
9 So the issue is would you let any feelings that you
10 have about obtaining those conversations and considering those
11 conversations interfere with your obligation as a juror to
12 consider all of the evidence in the case and determine whether
13 based upon that evidence or lack of evidence the government has
14 proven the charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt.
15 Put another way, would you say I don't like that
16 evidence, therefore, I am not going to consider it. These are
17 issues of law because they go to the question of whether you
18 would follow my instructions on the law.
19 A. Agreed.
20 Q. And what all of these questions are meant to do is to
21 determine whether you would be a fair and impartial juror,
22 whether you would decide the case based upon the evidence and
23 my instructions on the law.
24 So if this were evidence in the case, if that were the
25 evidence, attorney-client conversations between attorneys and
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1 their clients that were admitted at trial, would you say I
2 don't like that, I am not going to consider that, or would you
3 follow my instructions and consider all of the evidence in the
4 case or the lack of evidence and determine whether the
5 government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
6 reasonable doubt?
7 A. I guess the best way to answer that question in all
8 honesty, it would depend. I mean, if the attorney and the
9 client were walking down the street or they were at dinner, or
10 something, and their conversation happened to be recorded, then
11 I guess it's fair game. But if they were in the privacy of the
12 attorney's office, again I have a fundamental problem with
13 that. So, yes, I would follow the letter of the law but it all
14 depends on the circumstances as well.
15 Q. If you disagreed with my ruling on whether you could
16 consider that evidence, whether that evidence should be
17 admitted, would you, if you didn't agree that the evidence
18 should be considered, would you refuse to consider it even if I
19 told you to consider it?
20 A. No, absolutely not. I mean, you have to consider all
21 evidence. I would just have some problems with it. But I just
22 wouldn't throw the evidence out the window.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Well, that is what I was trying to ask before. And
25 it's a very important question and you have to tell me. You
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1 are a very intelligent person and you say -- when you answered
2 my question just now you said that you would follow my
3 instruction and, no, you wouldn't throw the evidence out the
4 window.
5 Would you consider that evidence in the same way as
6 you would all of the other evidence in the case, and would you
7 leave to me the issue of whether that evidence can be admitted
8 or not? Because I tell you as a matter of law, there are legal
9 principles to be applied and there are many as to whether
10 evidence of conversations between an attorney and a client can
11 be admitted. And the jurors don't make that determination.
12 They are not given those principles of law. They don't have to
13 decide these legal issues. It's for the court to decide those
14 legal issues.
15 And so the question is if that evidence is before you
16 would any of your feelings or thoughts about that evidence
17 prevent you from considering that evidence along with all the
18 other evidence in the case?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Would you follow my instructions that you should consider
21 all of the evidence or lack of evidence in the case in deciding
22 whether the government has proven the charges in the indictment
23 beyond a reasonable doubt?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And you expressed questions, and I understand that, about
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1 conversations between attorneys and their clients. Will you
2 leave to me the issue of whether you can consider those
3 conversations and if I admit those conversations will you
4 consider that evidence along with all of the other evidence in
5 the case?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is there anything about the nature of that evidence
8 that would prevent you from living up to your commitment to be
9 a fair and impartial juror and to decide the case based upon
10 the evidence or lack of evidence?
11 A. No.
12 Q. After having talked this out for some period of time, do
13 you have any doubt in your mind that you would be a fair and
14 impartial juror even though some of the evidence in the case
15 may be recorded conversations between attorneys and their
16 clients?
17 A. No, no doubt whatsoever.
18 Q. No doubt.
19 You mentioned that you thought that there was a law
20 enforcement bias against people of Middle Eastern descent or
21 people of the Islamic faith.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell me what you mean by that? And you mentioned
24 9/11.
25 A. I think there is a law enforcement bias against people of
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1 color just across the board but after 9/11 there was really a
2 bias against people of Middle Eastern descent. If you go back
3 to the Oklahoma City bombings the first person they were
4 looking for or the original --
5 Q. Just go a little slower.
6 A. Just to go back, if you go back to the Oklahoma City
7 bombings the original suspect they were looking for were from
8 Middle Eastern descent. Yes, there is a bias against them.
9 That is a fact. Is it right? No. But that is just how it is.
10 Q. Okay.
11 If you were chosen as a juror, as I have said, you
12 would have to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
13 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
14 Do you have any bias or prejudice against the
15 government or against any of the defendants in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, do you
18 understand that with respect to this case the issues of why
19 this case was brought or why these particular defendants are
20 defendants on trial or why any other person is not a defendant,
21 all of those issues are issues that reside with the government
22 and it's not for the jury to ask themselves why this particular
23 case was brought but under the juror's oath, they are required
24 to answer the question as finders of fact based upon these
25 charges against these defendants, has the government proven
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1 those charges beyond a reasonable doubt at trial?
2 Did you understand that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And would you do that if you were -- would you follow those
5 instructions if you were chosen as a juror in this case?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is there anything about 9/11 that would prevent you from
8 doing that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You mentioned that you had heard sound bites from news
11 reports about Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Can you tell me what, if
12 anything, you recall hearing about Sheikh Abdel Rahman?
13 A. To be honest with you, the TV was on in the background. I
14 wasn't paying attention so I didn't hear any specifics, but I
15 do remember the name.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Is there anything that you have seen, read or heard
18 about Sheikh Abdel Rahman that would prevent you from being a
19 fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
22 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
23 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
24 law.
25 Will you do that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
3 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
4 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
5 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
6 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
7 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
8 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No. There shouldn't be anything.
10 Q. I am sorry?
11 A. No, there shouldn't be anything.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You say there shouldn't be anything. There is
14 nothing?
15 To your knowledge, there is no reason that you will
16 not be a fair and impartial juror?
17 A. No, no reason whatsoever.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Could you step out for a moment?
20 A. Absolutely.
21 (Juror absent)
22 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I think we have two concerns.
23 When you asked this juror about question 62, and he expressed a
24 concern about intercepted conversations between attorney and
25 client, and you started to ask him questions about that and you
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1 asked him would he consider all of the evidence in the case,
2 and his response was but I would just have some problems with
3 it. Once he said that your Honor at great length explained to
4 him the law, discussed it with him, and asked questions like
5 could you be fair and impartial now knowing about it, could you
6 accept all the evidence, and he kept saying yes, I could, yes,
7 I could.
8 But we request that you ask him specifically what
9 would his problem be with it? He responded at one point that
10 essentially a client would think that he was talking to his
11 lawyer and would expect that he could say anything and that he
12 would expect that to be confidential. But he was never asked
13 what his problem with the intercepted conversation would be.
14 And he said something along the lines if he was
15 walking along the street and others were nearby and overheard
16 it, that seemed to be a situation where he would not have a
17 problem.
18 Here in our case, as I believe your Honor is aware,
19 clearly I think the intercepted conversation was amongst three
20 people who believed it was a confidential conversation. It was
21 a confidential communication at that point. It was just the
22 three of them during a prison visit or at least many of the
23 conversations are of that nature or I should say several
24 important ones. And we would like to know whether he still has
25 a problem with the fact that the government intercepts such
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1 conversations or may introduce evidence of such conversations
2 here and understand what his problem is.
3 Let him express what the problem he has with it is. I
4 understand he said he can accept the law and accept the fact
5 but, frankly, we are concerned that if he is chosen for the
6 case and evidence is presented in this case and it eventually
7 goes to a jury, his concerns, his problems may arise again and
8 may either knowingly or subconsciously interfere with his
9 ability to be fair.
10 On a separate issue --
11 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE COURT: But you know, you really haven't directed
2 my attention to anything that I should ask him, because we went
3 over this a lot. We really did. And he did explain about what
4 his problems were, in several different ways. And you've
5 expressed some of them. And he expressed his problems and --
6 as you know, he eventually assured me that none of that would
7 interfere with his ability to follow the law, which is to
8 consider all of the evidence that was admitted. I mean, he
9 expressed all of those problems and what he would have to do.
10 It's not clear to me what exactly you're asking.
11 MR. DEMBER: Maybe a more specific question, that if
12 the evidence showed the conversations introduced in this case
13 were expected to be private or were anticipated by the
14 participants to have been private, how would he treat or
15 consider that evidence, okay? The only example I remember him
16 talking about was conversations perhaps on the street that was
17 overheard by others. Or in an attorney's office. He
18 distinguished that, your Honor. A conversation on the street
19 where others might overhear it versus conversations between an
20 attorney and client in a private office. So I would ask you to
21 ask that type of question.
22 The second issue, your Honor, we'd like you to ask him
23 about, is when you asked him about Question 87, his belief,
24 whether there is a law enforcement bias against people from the
25 Middle East or -- he indicated that he thought that there was a
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1 law enforcement bias against -- by law enforcement, against
2 people of color in general. And --
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. DEMBER: And then you asked him: Can you treat
5 the government fairly?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. DEMBER: But the "government" is a very broad
8 word. It can mean anything. There are going to be law
9 enforcement witnesses likely testifying in this case. And the
10 question is can he consider their testimony openly, fairly,
11 impartially.
12 THE COURT: You know, I did more than that, because
13 I -- when I heard everything the witness said, I followed up
14 with respect to any bias against the government or the
15 defendants. The government or the defendants.
16 MR. DEMBER: True.
17 THE COURT: So I mean, I have followed up.
18 MR. DEMBER: The question is: Does he have any bias
19 against any law enforcement officials or type of law
20 enforcement official? The "government" is a very general word,
21 your Honor.
22 THE COURT: But it was not general in the way in which
23 I used it. It was general in the sense of --
24 MR. DEMBER: True.
25 THE COURT: -- the parties in this case, which was the
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1 way in which that issue arose.
2 MR. DEMBER: That may be, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I'll ask another question about law
4 enforcement witnesses and the ability to consider the testimony
5 of law enforcement witnesses.
6 MR. DEMBER: Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Sure.
8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, from our perspective, as we
9 recall the exchange with the juror, he first said, If it was a
10 conversation on the street with the lawyer, that's fair game.
11 However, he has a problem if it's, for instance, in an office.
12 Then your Honor specifically focused on that and got the
13 juror's commitment that he would consider that evidence and had
14 no doubt whatsoever about it.
15 Our objection to the question -- suppose in this case
16 there were evidence of such-and-such -- we have not up to now,
17 as I recall, your Honor, been asking jurors commitment
18 questions. What if this particular piece or kind of evidence
19 was in this case, what would you do with it? And we
20 respectfully suggest that your Honor's inquiry does cover the
21 matter.
22 THE COURT: Well, it's not -- that's really not wholly
23 true. I don't -- I phrased all of the questions in such a way
24 as to pursue every issue that's raised. When the issue of some
25 jurors came up with Bin Laden's name, I was asked and did
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1 follow up: If there were evidence in the case concerning Bin
2 Laden, would that affect your ability to be fair and impartial?
3 And I do these, you know, on both sides with extreme care. And
4 I would certainly not attempt to influence the juror in any
5 way. What I would attempt to do in the questions is to follow
6 up on this remark with respect to the expectation of the
7 parties and ask him if any of the evidence in the case included
8 any conversations where any of the parties expected them to be
9 private, would that prevent him from being a fair and impartial
10 juror? And following all of the instructions that I have given
11 him.
12 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I did not wish to be
13 misunderstood. For instance, yesterday, we talked about 60's
14 radicals, there was some exchange about that. Your Honor did
15 agree to ask a question that was generic and not specific.
16 That was all I was doing, that your Honor would do in this
17 case. And I accept and appreciate your Honor's point that you
18 would not ask questions that seek to move jurors in one way or
19 another. And that's why I referred to it as a commitment
20 question.
21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. If these questions
22 don't produce anything. I would expect to tell the juror to
23 call in again on June the 18th. I hear no challenges for
24 cause. Okay.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Hi.
3 A. How are you?
4 Q. Good. Just a few follow-up questions. One subject that I
5 didn't specifically talk to you about is that some of the
6 witnesses in the case are -- may well be law enforcement
7 personnel. The law is that no witness is entitled to any
8 greater or lesser credibility because of their occupation. And
9 that includes law enforcement officials.
10 At the same time, they're entitled to no lesser
11 deference than any other witness. They're to be considered
12 like any other witness. Their credibility is to be assessed in
13 the same way that you would the credibility of any other
14 witness. Would you follow that instruction?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you have any difficulty at all in following that
17 instruction?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When we discuss the issue of conversations between
20 attorneys and their client, one item that you raised is that
21 there may be situations in which there are expectations of the
22 persons in the conversation that the conversation will be
23 private. Whether there are expectations or not, of what the
24 law is with respect to the admissibility of such conversations,
25 that's for the Court. Do you understand that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And is there anything about any of those conversations,
3 even if there were any expectations, that would prevent you
4 from, if I allowed the evidence in, from considering that
5 evidence along with all of the other evidence in the case and
6 deciding this case based upon all of the evidence or lack of
7 evidence and my instructions on the law?
8 A. No, I wouldn't have any problems with that, following the
9 letter of the law.
10 Q. I'm sorry?
11 A. I wouldn't have any problem with it. I would follow the
12 letter of the law.
13 Q. Okay. All right. Juror 266, I'm going to -- you're still
14 involved in the jury selection process, and I'll ask you to
15 call back on June the 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip
16 of paper that indicates to call the jury administrator. It has
17 the telephone number and everything. It's very important that
18 you continue to follow my instructions.
19 Please, don't talk about this case or anything to do
20 with it. Please remember not to look at, listen to, read
21 anything in connection with the case. If you should see or
22 hear something in connection with the case, just turn away. As
23 I say, if you see something, hear something, inadvertently,
24 just turn away. You're not to look at, to listen to anything
25 to do with the case. Remember, as I'll tell the jurors that
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1 are finally selected: Keep an open mind until you've heard all
2 of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've
3 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness
4 and justice to the parties requires that you do that. All
5 right?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. It's good to see you.
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. Have a good day.
10 A. Thank you, Sir.
11 (Juror absent)
12 DEPUTY CLERK: 268.
13 U.S. MARSHAL: 268.
14 DEPUTY CLERK: Oh, wait a minute. 267.
15 (Juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 267. It's nice to see you. Let me
18 ask you some preliminary questions. Since you were here last,
19 has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a
20 juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you or have you
21 seen or heard anything that may affect your ability to be a
22 fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
25 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today,
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1 you won't have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
2 present any serious hardship for you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
5 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
6 the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
9 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any
10 prospective jurors?
11 A. No.
12 Q. While you were waiting with the prospective jurors, did you
13 or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Let me follow up on some of the questions on the
16 questionnaire. You've been in your current job for three years
17 and before that you had another job for about three years, was
18 it?
19 A. No, it was like eight, nine months.
20 Q. Okay. What job was that?
21 A. I use to do work at the Gap before where I work at now.
22 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
23 A. I used to work at the Gap store, the clothes store.
24 Q. And that was what you had for eight or nine years?
25 A. No, eight or nine months.
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1 Q. Eight or nine months.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And what did you do at that store?
4 A. I'm a salesperson.
5 Q. And before that, were you employed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. So you're in your second job now?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that your father worked at a city
10 hospital.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did he do?
13 A. He's assistant director of housekeeping.
14 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you'd served on one criminal jury
15 about four years ago?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the state court. And -- maybe I jumped too soon. Was
18 that in state court or federal court?
19 A. It was state court -- the regular one.
20 Q. Okay. And it was a drug case and the jury reached a
21 verdict, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Don't tell us what it was. But a verdict. Now, is there
24 anything about that process and your participation in that
25 process or your reactions to any of the participants in the
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1 process -- anything about that that would prevent you from
2 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mention that you read magazines sometimes. Any
5 particular magazines?
6 A. No. I only read them when I'm at work.
7 Q. You mentioned that you were somewhat knowledgeable about
8 Islam. Could you tell me what the, in general, what your
9 knowledge is about Islam?
10 A. Not that much. I know a few people that's Muslim. That's
11 it.
12 Q. You know a few people who are Islamic?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. Have you read anything about Islam that you recall?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
17 Mid East descent or --
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
20 the Islamic faith?
21 A. No.
22 Q. There's likely to be media attention to this case. And so
23 I want to make sure that the case is decided solely on the
24 evidence in the courtroom and not based on things that are said
25 outside the courtroom. And I'll instruct the jurors that they
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1 must avoid reading about the case in the newspapers, including
2 listening to any radio or television reports or reading any
3 Internet coverage or discussions about the case. And I'll tell
4 the jurors that they must avoid discussing the case with
5 friends or family during the course of the trial. Would you do
6 that? Will you follow that instruction?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And will you have any difficulty following that
9 instruction?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You had said yes on the questionnaire, but I thought it
12 might be a mistake. It came in a series of questions where you
13 said yes.
14 A. No. Oh, no, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.
15 Q. No problem following those instructions?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
18 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
19 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
20 law. Will you do that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
23 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
24 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
25 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
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1 time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
2 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
3 and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you Juror 267. Could you step out for just a
6 moment?
7 A. Okay.
8 (Juror absent)
9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we noticed that the juror was
10 using a cane, and we would ask you to ask her if she has some
11 physical hardship.
12 THE COURT: She had said no on the form. I'll ask
13 her.
14 MR. TIGAR: This may have been an injury that happened
15 since she filled out the questionnaire.
16 THE COURT: Sure. Anything else?
17 MR. DEMBER: No questions, Judge.
18 THE COURT: Okay. I'll follow that up, and if that
19 doesn't develop anything, I'll ask her to come back on June the
20 18th.
21 (Juror present)
22 BY THE COURT:
23 Q. Hi. I don't mean to pry, but I saw that you're using a
24 cane. Do you have any physical difficulty with sitting on the
25 jury?
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1 A. Oh, no. This just happened yesterday.
2 Q. Yesterday?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you okay?
5 A. I'm fine.
6 Q. And will sitting on the jury pose any physical difficulty
7 for you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to return on -- call in on June
10 the 18th and Mr. Fletcher will give you a piece of paper to
11 explain who to call, and you're still involved in the jury
12 selection process. So it's important that you call in on June
13 the 18th and that you follow my continuing instructions.
14 Please, don't talk about this case or anything to do
15 with it. Remember not to look at, listen to, read anything to
16 do with the case. If you should see something, hear something,
17 just turn away. Remember, as I'll tell the jurors, keep an
18 open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've
19 instructed you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to
20 begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties
21 requires that you do that. All right?
22 A. Okay. Yes.
23 Q. Nice to see you.
24 A. Okay. Thank you.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 DEPUTY CLERK: 278.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Hi.
5 A. Hello.
6 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 278.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions, and then turn to
9 the questionnaire. Since you were here last, has anything
10 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
11 case, or has anything occurred to you or have you seen or heard
12 anything that may affect your ability to be a fair and
13 impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No. Nothing has changed in regard to that. I do have more
15 information about my work situation that bears on it. But --
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. The fact that I wouldn't be paid for the time.
18 Q. Well, let me go to that. You've checked with your employer
19 and you will not be paid?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Would it be a serious economic hardship for you to serve on
22 the jury?
23 A. Yeah. I'm basically the main source of income for the
24 family. So I don't see how we'd be able to avoid bankruptcy.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Could you step out for a moment?
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1 A. Sure.
2 (Juror absent)
3 THE COURT: I'll excuse the juror.
4 MR. DEMBER: The government agrees, your Honor.
5 MR. TIGAR: No objection.
6 (Juror present)
7 BY THE COURT:
8 Q. Hi, Juror 278. I'll excuse you. I very much appreciate
9 your participation in the process, filling out the
10 questionnaire, coming in, coming back. And you should
11 appreciate that you've performed a public service by
12 participating in the process, and I hope that that gives you
13 personal satisfaction.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. You can go home now, and all of the paperwork will be taken
16 care of in the mail.
17 A. Thank you.
18 (Juror absent)
19 DEPUTY CLERK: 256.
20 U.S. MARSHAL: 256.
21 (Juror present)
22 BY THE COURT:
23 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 256.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you were
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1 here last, has anything changed concerning your ability to
2 serve as a juror in this case, or has anything occurred to you
3 or have you seen or heard anything that may affect your ability
4 to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
7 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today,
8 it's unlikely you will be called to come back or asked to call
9 in until June the 18th. Does that present any serious hardship
10 for you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken in anyone about
13 this case, have you looked at or listened to anything about the
14 case?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case? And that includes
17 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
18 prospective jurors?
19 A. No.
20 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
21 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now, you said on the questionnaire that this case would be
24 a serious hardship for you?
25 A. Yes. I mean, I do.
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1 Q. Could you keep your voice up? Talk into the microphone?
2 A. Yes. I am the chief financial officer of my firm. It's a
3 small firm. And that in itself would be a hardship for the
4 company. I'm not in a union or anything to that effect.
5 Q. I'm sorry?
6 A. I am not in a union or anything to that effect, so, you
7 know, I don't know what that really -- I haven't discussed this
8 with my employer, but certainly I don't think a long-term
9 commitment would work out for me.
10 Q. Well, do you know whether your employer would pay you?
11 A. Absolutely -- no, they would not pay me for a duration of
12 that period.
13 Q. How do you know that? I thought you said you hadn't
14 discussed it?
15 A. Well, I haven't discussed it, but I know the mentality of
16 people that work on Wall Street. And it's just -- you know,
17 we're -- it's just an assumption of mine.
18 Q. Okay. Your firm is not a small firm. It employs over 250
19 people.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I'm not asking what the firm is. But you just don't
22 know if they'll pay you or not?
23 A. Not for certain, no.
24 Q. If you didn't receive that income and -- for a four- to
25 six-month period and you just received the juror pay, $40 a
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1 day, goes up to $50 a day, your -- yours is a two-income
2 household?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Would the loss of your income for that period of time be a
5 serious economic hardship for you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why?
8 A. I have a mortgage.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And it's not so much -- again, it's the -- I don't know the
11 long-term effects of being out for such a long period of time
12 for my employer.
13 Q. Well, you know --
14 A. And I --
15 Q. You -- you've got to really follow my questions, because I
16 really want to take this in steps. And the reason that I want
17 to do that is the parties in the case are entitled to have a
18 jury selected from a cross-section of their community. And
19 that includes people who have responsibility jobs and who --
20 for whom it would be an economic sacrifice to be on the jury,
21 but upon whom it would not be a serious economic hardship. And
22 people vary. And, you know, people's responsibilities vary,
23 and people's economic situation varies. But it is -- it's
24 simply a bedrock for the administration of justice that people
25 are prepared to serve as jurors and live up to the obligations
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1 of citizenship even if it places -- which it does -- burdens on
2 them. Because to the extent that any person does not serve,
3 someone else will serve. And people would expect, no matter
4 what their position in society, no matter what their
5 responsibilities, that if they found themselves involved in a
6 matter that went to trial, they would expect others to step
7 forward and take on their own responsibilities. So that's why
8 I try to break this down and see whether there is serious
9 hardship.
10 So, with respect to your income, you're not sure if
11 your employer would pay. Okay. Tell me if your employer did
12 not pay, would that be serious economic hardship for you and
13 your family, given your economic situation, the other income in
14 the family -- you have to tell me that. Would it be?
15 A. Again, it would certainly have an economic impact on my
16 family.
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. And I have some anxiety over the long-term effect of that.
19 With the duration of this case as you described, I don't
20 believe my employer would do without me for six months.
21 Q. I said I was going to get to that. That's the next point.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. I'm dealing just with the issue of income.
24 A. And what happens is -- maybe I'm not interpreting your
25 question correctly.
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1 Q. I'm dealing with the economic effect on you, and I just
2 want to know if you weren't paid by your employer, would that
3 be a serious economic hardship for you?
4 A. I believe it would be.
5 Q. Okay. We can then make a determination about whether your
6 employer will pay. You can ask your employer. I've asked
7 other prospective jurors to go back and answer that question.
8 But -- and you told me, very slightingly, but you told me that
9 you would have some anxiety if you served on this jury. Now,
10 you mean anxiety because you were losing that money?
11 A. The long-term effects, again, if --
12 Q. The long-term effect on your employer?
13 A. My employment with this organization, and my career and my
14 future at this organization.
15 Q. Well, you know --
16 A. I recognize my -- I really do. I've served on juries
17 before and I recognize my duty as a citizen, and I fully
18 respect what the whole process is. And all I am trying to
19 express is that with this particular issue on the economics of
20 it all, I just have some anxiety about that. And -- I don't
21 know how to state that any clearer.
22 Q. Okay. But you're not telling me, are you, that your
23 anxiety -- if I worked through all of these issues and I
24 decided that you should sit as a juror -- and I'm not saying
25 that that's what would happen at the end of the day -- but if
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1 it were, you're not suggesting to me that your anxiety is such
2 that you would not give the parties in this case a fair trial,
3 are you?
4 A. Not from just -- not from the economics of my livelihood,
5 no. There may be other aspects about my opinions in this case
6 that may preclude that. And we'll get to that as well, I'm
7 assuming.
8 Q. Yep. Now, tell me why -- we don't sit on Fridays. We
9 don't sit beyond 4:30. We don't sit on weekends. So you would
10 be able to continue to have an ongoing presence at your firm,
11 though of course you -- the jury service would be four days a
12 week. Your firm would be able to continue to exist without you
13 for that period of time, wouldn't it?
14 A. The firm would exist, yes. The firm would certainly exist.
15 I think they would have to add additional personnel in my
16 absence.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I think they would be forced to. I mean, we run a pretty
19 lean shop.
20 Q. But it's not such a burden on the firm that that would be a
21 substantial burden to hire additional personnel while you were
22 on jury duty?
23 A. No, that would probably not, but what I expressed was my
24 anxiety, when the case is over, I may not be needed any longer.
25 Q. Well, the employer certainly couldn't retaliate against you
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1 because you were on jury service.
2 A. I recognize that. I mean --
3 Q. And I'm sure your employer must recognize that. That would
4 not be an astute thing for the employer to do.
5 A. Certainly not. There's -- that's true. And again, I don't
6 know definitively. I don't know definitively. I'm just
7 expressing some anxiety about that issue.
8 Q. Would -- so the firm could continue to go on while you were
9 on jury duty, and you've expressed some anxiety over what your
10 position would be, but you know your employer couldn't
11 retaliate against you, and you -- and if I decided that you
12 could serve in this case, you wouldn't hold it against the
13 other -- any of the parties here, would you?
14 A. No. No.
15 Q. And you wouldn't be other than a fair and impartial juror,
16 would you?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You said that there might be another issue that in some way
19 interfered with your ability to be fair and impartial.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I want to make sure that you understand, I will -- I'll
22 decide the issue of hardship, and will need some input from
23 your employer. But it's very important that you respond, you
24 know, truthfully and candidly to all of my questions, and so if
25 there are concerns there, tell me what they are, but please
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1 don't attempt to express anything that's other than your
2 sincerest issues with respect to your ability to be a fair and
3 impartial juror in this case and to give the parties to this
4 case the fair trial to which they're all entitled.
5 A. Certainly.
6 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. What is the issue that you have as to whether you could be
2 fair and impartial?
3 A. As this case relates to the bombing of the World Trade
4 Center to some degree I am assuming from what we have talked
5 about on the first day. In the 9/11 event I had some close
6 work associates. I work downtown Wall Street, Battery Park for
7 probably most of my career, for 20 years or so, and I had some
8 personal losses in that event and while I don't know all the
9 details of where this case will go, that may trigger some
10 issues. I would like to be, and I even stated it in my
11 questionnaire, that I would be unbiased and open-minded, so I
12 have indicated that and I signed to that and I swore on that.
13 I like to believe I can. However, I do want you to know that I
14 am close to Wall Street. I am close to where that event
15 happened. I do have some personal losses, associates that were
16 tied up with the 9/11 event and that is really what I wanted to
17 state.
18 Q. Okay.
19 First, the defendants in this case are not charged
20 with anything to do with 9/11, and this case doesn't concern
21 9/11. None of the charges in this case concern 9/11. As I
22 say, the defendants are not charged with being involved in 9/11
23 and the case doesn't concern 9/11. It is possible that there
24 could be evidence in the case that concerns Bin Laden, although
25 actually there was nothing that I said in my preliminary
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1 instructions that said that but it is possible since you raise
2 this, and so my question is hearing all of that, this case is
3 not about 9/11 and none of the charges in the case are related
4 to 9/11 or responsibility for 9/11. This case is not about
5 9/11. As I say, there may be evidence in the case that
6 concerns Bin Laden. Having heard all of that, could you be a
7 fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. I believe I have a predisposition that the defendants and
9 the whole catastrophe of the earlier bombings in I believe that
10 was in 1992, February 27th or 26th, and the most recent event
11 on 9/11 are related and despite what you are indicating, what
12 you are telling me, I am afraid I have a predisposition to
13 that.
14 Q. Would you be able to -- everyone comes into a case,
15 particularly cases that have received some publicity with ideas
16 in their mind. What the law requires is that people put any of
17 their preconceptions, anything they have seen, heard, read,
18 felt aside and decide the case based solely upon the evidence
19 or lack of evidence in the case and my instructions on the law.
20 And then the issue is whether any of the person's prior
21 exposure to anything, or feelings to anything would interfere
22 with the juror's ability to be a fair and impartial juror and
23 to decide the case based solely on the evidence or lack of
24 evidence.
25 A. I believe I could do that.
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1 Q. You believe you could be a fair and impartial juror?
2 A. I believe I have that in me to be able to weigh the
3 evidence as it's presented in this trial and only what is
4 present and weigh that impartially, yes.
5 Q. Do you have any doubt about your ability to do that?
6 A. Well, again, 3 sentences or 3 paragraphs ago I did say I
7 believe I also have a disposition, a predisposed disposition
8 that these parties I believe are somewhat related. However, I
9 like to believe that I can be an impartial, based upon the
10 evidence once I hear it and once I understand all the facts
11 that are involved, I would like to believe I could be unbiased,
12 open-minded, impartial. I like to believe I am that type of
13 person. However, I believe some of the defendants are related
14 in these events. That is my predisposition to this. But,
15 again, I believe I can be --
16 Q. Do you have any question in your mind about whether based
17 upon what I told you about the case and what the allegations in
18 the case are, whether you could be fair and impartial?
19 A. I guess I cannot be fair and impartial then to answer your
20 question, unfortunately.
21 Q. You are being totally candid with me and that is all I ask
22 from you and I very much appreciate your going through this
23 with me.
24 Could you step out for a moment?
25 (Juror absent)
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1 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror, yes?
2 MR. DEMBER: No objection, your Honor.
3 MR. TIGAR: No objection, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. Let's call in the juror.
5 (Juror present)
6 BY THE COURT:
7 Q. Juror 256, I am going to excuse you and I want to make sure
8 that you understand that I very much appreciate your
9 participation in the process, filling out the questionnaire and
10 then responding to my questions today. All of my questions are
11 intended simply to probe to assure that the parties in the case
12 get the fair and impartial jurors to which they are entitled
13 and I very much appreciate your responses to my questions, your
14 participation in the process. I do not underestimate the
15 difficulty of the process.
16 I can assure you that you should take away from this
17 process the personal satisfaction of knowing that you have
18 performed a public service. The system can't exist without
19 people such as yourself who are prepared to participate in the
20 process and so you should take away that personal satisfaction
21 of knowing that you have performed a public service by
22 participating in the process. And so you are excused and your
23 paperwork will be taken care of through the mail and you can go
24 home and, again, I appreciate your participation in the
25 process.
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1 A. Thank you.
2 (Juror absent)
3 THE CLERK: 259.
4 (Juror present)
5 BY THE COURT:
6 Q. Please have a seat.
7 Good afternoon, Juror 259. Good to see you.
8 Let me ask you some preliminary questions. Since you
9 were here last has anything changed concerning your ability to
10 serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you
11 or have you seen or heard anything that may affect your ability
12 to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
15 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
16 it's unlikely that you will be called to come back before June
17 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
20 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
21 the case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
24 any people here at the courthouse or any other prospective
25 jurors?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
3 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. In answering the questionnaire you indicated that serving
6 on the jury would not cause you any economic hardship, is that
7 right?
8 A. I will lose a few days of pay a week but whatever it is,
9 right?
10 Q. Okay.
11 But that is not a serious economic hardship for you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 And you mentioned that your father was in the Navy for
15 4 months, is that right?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And when was that?
18 A. Korean War era.
19 Q. Anything about that that would prevent from you being a
20 fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You said that you were somewhat knowledgeable about the
23 history and practices of Islam and the source of that knowledge
24 was basic high school studies of the Middle East, et cetera.
25 Could you just tell me in general what the extent of your
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1 knowledge is with respect to Islam?
2 A. It's one of the three primary monotheistic religions. When
3 I learned about it, they called them Muslims. Now it's Moslem
4 or Islam. That is really about it. I know they have their God
5 Allah. They use the Koran as their sacred book and that is
6 about all I really know.
7 Q. Do you recall any books or articles that you read on Islam?
8 A. Not specifically.
9 Q. Do you have any bias or prejudice towards any people from
10 the Middle East or any people of Middle Eastern descent or any
11 people of the Islamic faith?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You mentioned that you had heard something about Sheikh
14 Abdel Rahman on radio news reports. Can you tell me what you
15 recall?
16 A. If I remember, I think he was involved with the first Trade
17 Center bombing but that is if I can remember correctly that is
18 the only recollection I would have.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Is there anything which you have seen, heard or read
21 which would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror
22 in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. The jurors in this case would be told that they are
25 required to decide this case based solely upon the evidence or
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1 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law. Will you
2 follow that instruction?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the jurors are not to consider anything which they may
5 have seen, heard or read prior to the case. They are to decide
6 the case solely on the evidence or lack of evidence. Would you
7 do that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, and I know this
10 is a little repetitious, you would be required to decide the
11 case based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and in
12 accordance with my instructions on the law. Will you do that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And as you can tell from all of these questions the
15 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
16 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
17 fair and impartial juror in this case, so let me ask you one
18 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
19 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
20 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Could you step out for a moment?
24 (Juror absent)
25 THE COURT: No further questions and no challenges.
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1 Let's bring in Juror 259.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Please have a seat.
5 Juror 259, you are still involved in the jury
6 selection process. What that means is that I will ask you to
7 call back on June 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of
8 paper with a number to call back and it's very important that
9 you continue to follow my instructions. Please don't talk
10 about this case or anything to do with it. Please remember not
11 to look at, read, listen to anything about the case. If you
12 should see or hear something inadvertently, just turn away.
13 Remember please to keep an open mind until, as I tell the
14 jurors, they have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed
15 them on the law and they have gone to the jury room to begin
16 their deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that you do
17 that. All right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Good to see you.
20 A. Thank you.
21 (Juror absent)
22 THE CLERK: 268.
23 (Juror present)
24 THE COURT: Juror 257 was notified that the juror is
25 excused.
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Good afternoon.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Good to see you, Juror 268.
5 Juror 268, I have a few preliminary questions. Since
6 you were here last has anything changed concerning your ability
7 to serve as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to
8 you or have you seen or heard anything that may affect your
9 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
12 chosen in the case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
13 you won't have to call back until June 18th. Does that present
14 any serious hardship for you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
17 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
18 the case?
19 A. I read an article in the New York Law Journal the next day
20 that listed there was a series of jurors that came in for the
21 purpose of this trial and that was it.
22 Q. Okay.
23 Was that the article the day after you were called
24 into sign the questionnaire?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Did you read the article? Or did you read the headline? I
2 am just curious because I had told you not to look at --
3 A. Someone brought -- I work in a law firm and someone brought
4 the article into my office and said, oh, did you know da, da,
5 da, and I said that is not my case and they read it and I read
6 the title and I knew what it was.
7 Q. Did you talk to the other person about the case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Did you learn anything in that article that you didn't
11 already know?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is there anything about that article that would --
14 A. I didn't read the whole article so I really don't know.
15 But the title stated exactly what had happened, that jurors
16 came to be selected for the Lynne Stewart case which I knew
17 immediately to say that wasn't what I went for. People knew I
18 went for jury duty because I wasn't in the office.
19 Q. And you put them off by saying that wasn't your case, okay.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. And I appreciate your bringing that to my attention.
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
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1 or with any other prospective jurors?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
4 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You mentioned that you work now for a law firm. Could you
7 tell me what the general nature of the law firm's work is?
8 Don't tell me the name of the law firm but the general nature,
9 is it general corporate practice or litigation or both?
10 A. Both.
11 Q. Both. A big firm?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay.
14 Does the firm do any criminal defense work?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 You had also been at a prior law firm for about 2 and
18 a half years?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And, again, don't tell me the name of the law firm but what
21 kind --
22 A. Tax law.
23 Q. That was a tax law firm?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it was a smaller firm?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Did they do any criminal defense work?
3 A. There was pending litigation for a few individuals
4 regarding some Internal Revenue officer cases that had come but
5 we never went to court. But they were barred in the U.S. Tax
6 Court and the Court of Appeals.
7 Q. Okay.
8 You mentioned that your mother was employed as a
9 secretary. Could you tell me the general nature of the
10 business or organization where your mother was a secretary?
11 A. Insurance company.
12 Q. Okay.
13 You mentioned that you had a friend who sued the
14 government for Workers Compensation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then you put down a friend's parent.
17 A. It's the same, a friend's parent.
18 Q. Who sued for Workers Comp?
19 A. Yes, he was a Clerk of the Court and he was injured on his
20 lunch break where a shelving unit fell on his head and his
21 father sued the court and the county in Westchester County.
22 Q. The father sued on behalf of the son?
23 A. No, the matter was the person injured, my friend's father,
24 the parent sued.
25 Q. So it's the parent who sued for the Workers Comp?
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1 A. Correct. He was a court officer or a clerk.
2 Q. Okay.
3 You mentioned that you took CLE classes at the law
4 firm.
5 Can you tell me the general nature of the CLE classes?
6 A. Everything from ethics to very in-depth detailed document
7 oriented related to my specialization.
8 Q. Which is project finance?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You mentioned that you have a friend who interned at the
11 Department of Justice. By the way, before I get to that, you
12 mentioned that you have friends who are lawyers and that you
13 have -- is it a friend who is a court clerk?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you say a court clerk, are you referring to a law
16 clerk or a court officer? Is it a law clerk to a judge or is
17 it a court officer who assists the court, like a deputy clerk?
18 A. Well, I know people have clerks for judges but the person I
19 am speaking of is a clerk in the federal court in White Plains.
20 I don't know exactly her position but I believe it's called
21 Clerk of the Court.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Where they do filing and organization, probably some of the
24 people who work here.
25 Q. I understand. I was just trying to get a better
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1 understanding.
2 A. I am sorry, I wish I knew exactly what she did.
3 Q. No, you have explained it perfectly.
4 You mentioned that you have a friend who interned at
5 the Department of Justice. Do you know what division of the
6 department?
7 A. I do not.
8 Q. And when was that?
9 A. In 1997.
10 Q. Okay.
11 And you have a friend who is at Bronx Legal Aid?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that friend a lawyer?
14 A. A social worker. She is a social worker.
15 Q. Okay.
16 And is there anything about any of your relationships
17 with all of these lawyers or anything that you discussed with
18 any of those lawyers or people involved in the legal process
19 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
20 this case?
21 A. I don't believe so.
22 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt whether you would be fair
23 and impartial in this case?
24 A. Other than the fact that I work in a law firm and I am
25 familiar with the law, no. I might have an advantage over
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1 other people but I don't think that I would be impartial or
2 biased.
3 Q. You don't think you would -- you believe that you would be
4 impartial and unbiased.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Let me explore for a moment the fact that you work at a law
7 firm and that you have friends who are lawyers and you have
8 attended CLE classes.
9 Lawyers indeed sit on juries. The fundamental
10 principle for anyone who has some familiarity with the law,
11 whether they are a lawyer or they get their familiarity from
12 some other source, the fundamental point is that the jurors
13 must take their instructions on the law from the court, from
14 me. And the jurors are not to second guess what I say that the
15 law is and the jurors are not to substitute their view for what
16 the law is or what the law should be, but what I say that the
17 law is. So to that extent you really don't have any advantage
18 over any of the other jurors because you and everyone else on
19 the jury would have to take what I say that the law is. You
20 couldn't bring to the jury box a thought that you had heard
21 something else from another lawyer or you had heard something
22 in a course. Any legal principles, any instructions on the law
23 you would be required to follow what I say that the law is.
24 And would you do that?
25 A. Yes, I would.
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1 Q. And would you follow the law as I tell you that the law is?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And would you do that even if you disagree with it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you have any question in your mind that you would do
6 that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. That actually brings us to another question, which is I
9 told you on the form that -- on the questionnaire, that there
10 may be evidence in the case of recorded conversations between
11 attorneys and their client and I asked whether there is
12 anything about that that would prevent you from rendering a
13 fair and impartial verdict based solely on the evidence and you
14 said yes, the information is privileged.
15 Let me explain something.
16 There are legal principles involved in determining
17 whether there is a privilege and whether there are exceptions
18 to the privilege and as I sometimes tell jurors in explaining
19 to them some rules of evidence, including hearsay, there is a
20 lot of law out there and the jurors don't have to worry about
21 that. I explain to them the law that they need to know for the
22 trial.
23 A. All right.
24 Q. And so on this subject if -- it's for me to determine
25 whether evidence is admitted in court and if it's admitted,
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1 then the jurors can consider it and the jurors have to decide
2 whether based upon the evidence or lack of evidence the
3 government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
4 reasonable doubt. It's not up to the jurors to second guess my
5 rulings on the law as to whether that evidence should have gone
6 in, whether it's privileged or not privileged, whether there
7 are any exceptions or anything like that. The jurors listen to
8 the evidence. I decide whether the evidence gets admitted. Do
9 you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. And will you follow those instructions?
3 A. Yes, I will.
4 Q. And is there anything then about the fact that some of the
5 evidence in the case may be conversations between attorneys and
6 their clients, is there anything about that that would prevent
7 you from being a fair and impartial juror?
8 A. If you as a judge are instructing the jury to review
9 evidence because you deem it to be evidence that we are allowed
10 to review? I have no problem whatsoever reviewing that
11 evidence. Do I believe there is a privilege between attorneys
12 and clients? Yes, I do.
13 Q. All right. Do you understand that there are also, just to
14 make something further clear, there is -- you say you believe
15 that there is such a thing as an attorney/client privilege.
16 There is such a thing as an attorney/client privilege. There
17 are then questions whether materials are covered by that
18 privilege, whether there are exceptions to that privilege. As
19 with other issues of law and other issues with respect to the
20 admissibility of evidence, it's up to the Court to pass on
21 that.
22 So if I admit evidence and you thought the evidence
23 was covered by what you thought was the attorney/client
24 privilege, if I admitted that evidence, would you consider that
25 evidence along with all the other evidence in the case without
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1 distinction?
2 A. Yes, I would never doubt whatever you told me was
3 admissible.
4 Q. Is there anything about the fact that there may be
5 evidence, in the case of conversations between attorneys and
6 their client, anything about that that would prevent you from
7 being a fair and impartial juror and considering that evidence
8 along with all the other evidence in the case?
9 A. Not if I'm instructed to consider it, no.
10 Q. All right. And I tell jurors in the course of a trial that
11 I rule on issues of law and they're there to consider evidence
12 that's admitted, unless I tell them that it's -- that they're
13 not to consider it, that I strike it. And there are other
14 principals of law that I give throughout the trial. So it's
15 very important to me that you will follow my instructions on
16 the law. Will you do that?
17 A. Yes, I will.
18 Q. You've traveled extensively. Is there anything about any
19 of your travels that would prevent you from being a fair and
20 impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No, I don't believe so.
22 Q. You mention that you have a coworker and a friend from
23 Kuwait and Egypt. Is there anything about that that would
24 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. And you've told us that you have friends who have visited
2 Egypt, Israel, Palestine, Jordan. Anything like that that
3 would prevent you from being fair and impartial in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards people of
6 Middle Eastern descent or the Islamic faith?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You told us that you were somewhat knowledgeable about the
9 history and practices of Islam. Could you tell me what the
10 basis for that knowledge is?
11 A. In undergraduate I took a class called The Five Pillars of
12 Islam. It's very general.
13 Q. That's the source of your knowledge?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
16 fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
19 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
20 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
21 law. Will you do that?
22 A. Yes, I will.
23 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
24 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
25 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
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1 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
2 final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
3 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
4 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No, there isn't.
6 Q. Okay. Could you step out, please?
7 A. Thanks.
8 (Juror absent)
9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we have no concerns about this
10 juror's ability to be fair. I would ask the Court to consider
11 giving her an additional instruction and that is would she
12 undertake not to speculate about the basis for the Court's
13 rulings on the admissibility of evidence.
14 THE COURT: Oh, sure.
15 MR. TIGAR: The reason --
16 THE COURT: No --
17 MR. TIGAR: Attorney/client privilege, I didn't want
18 her to start thinking crime/fraud or something like that while
19 she was wandering about.
20 THE COURT: Sure.
21 Any other questions, any challenges?
22 MR. DEMBER: No.
23 THE COURT: Okay, sure.
24 (Juror present)
25 BY THE COURT:
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1 Q. Hi.
2 A. Hi.
3 Q. Let me follow up on one additional thing and then give you
4 some instruction. I discussed in the course of my discussion
5 with you, lots of different issues of law. And it's important
6 that you not speculate or second-guess about what my rulings on
7 law are or would be and what the basis for them is. I always
8 attempt in the course of a trial to explain to jurors as best I
9 can what the law is for them to follow. But they're not to
10 speculate as to what the reasons for any of my rulings are or
11 what the basis for the law is. And so will you simply not
12 speculate or second guess about anything that I tell you about
13 the law?
14 A. Will I not do that? Yes, I will not do that.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I'm not a lawyer.
17 Q. No, no, I know that.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. I know that. And will you follow the law?
20 A. Yes, I will.
21 Q. I'll -- you're still involved in the jury selection
22 process. And so you should call back on June the 18th.
23 Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip, will tell you who to call
24 back. And again, you've really scrupulously followed my
25 instructions, and please continue to do that. Don't talk about
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1 this case at all with anyone. If anyone tries to talk to you,
2 simply turn away. Don't look at, listen to, anything to do
3 with the case. If you should inadvertently see or hear
4 something, just turn away. Remember, always, as I'll tell the
5 jurors, don't -- rather, keep an open mind. You must keep an
6 open mind until you've heard all the evidence, I've instructed
7 you on the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
8 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that you do that.
9 All right?
10 A. All right.
11 Q. Okay. Nice to see you.
12 (Juror absent)
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 DEPUTY CLERK: That's it.
15 THE COURT: Okay. I will see -- I had given you -- I
16 know I've gotten the defendant's next 20. I indicated 20
17 today, 20 tomorrow. And I think 20 on Monday.
18 I will see you all at 9:15 on Monday morning.
19 MR. DEMBER: Don't you mean Tuesday, your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Yes, Tuesday morning.
21 MR. DEMBER: Before we adjourn for the day, you had
22 asked us this morning whether we were taking a position with
23 respect to the juror who named -- or actually the juror who
24 named a coworker in her questionnaire, Juror 217.
25 THE COURT: Right.
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1 MR. DEMBER: And I think the request was made maybe by
2 the defense that the jury clerk check to see whether that
3 person who was named in Juror 217's questionnaire -- whether
4 that person is still amongst the panel of jurors that we're
5 still considering or haven't seen yet and we have no objection
6 to the jury clerk doing that.
7 THE COURT: Okay. And the defendants want me to do
8 that?
9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay. I'll have either Mr. Price or
11 Mr. Grate do that and get back to you the early part of next
12 week. Okay. Anything else? All right.
13 See you all on Tuesday morning, 9:15.
14 (Adjourned to Tuesday, June 1, 2004, @ 9:15 a.m.)
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