26 May 2004
Source: Digital file from Southern District Reporters Office; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 6 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ssy-dt.htm
Lynne Stewart web site with case documents: http://www.lynnestewart.org/
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
2
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
3
4 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK)
4
5 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar,"
5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART,
6 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY,
6
7 Defendants.
7
8 ------------------------------x
8
9
9 New York, N.Y.
10 May 26, 2004
10 9:30 a.m.
11
11 Before:
12
12 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL
13
13 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
1
2 DAVID N. KELLEY
2 United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
3 ROBIN BAKER
4 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO
4 ANTHONY BARKOW
5 ANDREW DEMBER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
6 KENNETH A. PAUL
7 BARRY M. FALLICK
7 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar
8
8 MICHAEL TIGAR
9 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE
9 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart
10
10 DAVID STERN
11 DAVID A. RUHNKE
11 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Good morning all, please be seated.
3 All right, a few preliminary matters.
4 In response to the parties' requests, we won't sit on
5 Friday morning. At the same time though, as I pointed out
6 yesterday, the submission of the questionnaires, the additional
7 questions to me, has been delayed. And I really have to get
8 them earlier. So I have the questions that you gave me last
9 night and that is for tomorrow. So you should give me another
10 20 by tomorrow evening, and another 20 on Friday evening, and
11 another 20 on Monday evening. And I expect, just for planning,
12 that I would ask you to give me another 20 on next Tuesday if
13 you want to get ahead. But that is where we are at this point.
14 Second, do any of your notes, any of the parties'
15 notes, indicate that Juror 183 was excused or stricken? My
16 notes don't indicate that and the jury administrator had
17 included 183 on the list of stricken, so it may be that that
18 juror was told not to come in. In any event, unless your notes
19 indicate that the juror should be stricken, I will ask the jury
20 administrator to call the juror and tell the juror that the
21 juror is not excused and the juror should come in the next day,
22 which will be next Tuesday.
23 Does anyone's notes indicate that 183 should be
24 stricken?
25 MR. RUHNKE: We just caucused very briefly and nobody
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1 thinks that that juror was excused.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. DEMBER: We believe that is true, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 The jury administrator got a note from Juror Number
6 223, who explained that the juror had various religious
7 holidays and under the current schedule would not be available
8 until Tuesday, June 2. The jury administrator or assistant
9 jury administrator made copies of that note and I am perfectly
10 happy to-the jury administrator checked it over to make sure
11 there was no identifying information on the note, so I want to
12 share it with the parties. And Juror 223 would then be called
13 in on Tuesday, June 2.
14 That brings us, I think, to Juror 186.
15 I have a note that Juror 158 is due in at 11 a.m. So
16 the next juror should be Juror Number 186.
17 Is everyone ready?
18 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Good morning, Juror 186.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. It's good to see you.
24 A. Thank you.
25 Q. Juror 186, you had indicated on your questionnaire that
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1 serving on the jury would be a serious hardship for you?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Could you explain to me why that is?
4 A. I am the sole breadwinner for my family. I am due for a
5 promotion and a new job starting June 30, July 1st, in that
6 range, and to be denied the opportunity to take that promotion
7 would create a severe hardship for my family.
8 Q. But you would continue to be employed and receive your
9 regular salary?
10 A. I believe I would, but it would create a hardship. We are
11 barely making it actually financially right now to be honest.
12 Q. But again I am not sure I follow. You would continue to be
13 paid your salary. You would receive the money from the jury
14 fee, $40 a day and $50 a day after some period, and there is
15 nothing about being on the jury that would prevent you from
16 getting an additional job.
17 A. Yes, actually it would. The job is very more demanding of
18 my time and it can't -- I can't take a new job if I am not
19 there and because of the travel to the city the fact that I am
20 barely making it as it is right now with the family, the added
21 expense of having to take the train from Putnam County every
22 day to get down here to court would be a severe hardship.
23 Q. Your transportation expenses would be paid.
24 A. I understand that. I still have to put it out in the
25 beginning and that is what I don't have.
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1 Q. The jury fee and expenses I believe are paid after about
2 ten days.
3 A. It still has to come out in the beginning and that is what
4 I am saying.
5 Q. The transportation costs for ten days --
6 A. It's $14 one way and you do that for ten days, that is at
7 least $140 just one way and I don't have $140 extra to take the
8 train every day to get here.
9 Q. Can you tell me what kind of promotion it is that you are
10 looking at?
11 A. Right now I am a teacher and I am being promoted to
12 assistant director of staff development for a school district.
13 It's a full-time position that works all year long.
14 Q. And do you definitely have that position?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Well, we don't work on Fridays and the school district
17 couldn't penalize you for the fact that you are on jury duty.
18 A. What can I tell you? They can very easily put me back into
19 a teaching position and have someone else that can be there
20 every day to do the job. It's a very time sensitive job.
21 Q. Can you step out just for a moment?
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE COURT: Now, do the parties want me to pursue it
24 with this juror and, for example, have the juror go back to her
25 employer and develop a record that they are not going to do
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1 anything with respect to the position that she has because of
2 her jury service? She is raising a series of issues to the
3 extent that I resolve one issue, and one suspects that there
4 will be another. And so do you want me to pursue it with the
5 juror?
6 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor, the defense would consent
7 to excusing the juror. I think we have all known people like
8 that.
9 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we don't think there is a
10 need to pursue any further questioning of this juror.
11 THE COURT: Okay. I will excuse the juror.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Juror 186, I am excuse you and all of your paperwork will
15 be taken care of by mail.
16 A. Okay. Thank you very much.
17 (Juror absent)
18 THE COURT: Juror 187.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Good morning, Juror Number 187.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. It's good to see you.
24 A. Thanks.
25 Q. Could you tell me since you were here last has anything
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1 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
2 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
3 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
6 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
7 you wouldn't be asked to call in again until June 18th.
8 Does that present any serious hardship for you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
11 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
12 the case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
15 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
16 prospective jurors?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
19 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Let me follow up on a few of the questions on the
22 questionnaire.
23 You indicated that serving on the jury would be an
24 economic hardship but at the same time you told us that you
25 would be paid your salary while you were serving on the jury.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Why would this then be an economic hardship?
3 A. Well, I am the sole provider and I work -- I am a nurse and
4 I work two other jobs per diem. That is how I supplement my
5 income.
6 Q. Okay. But I am not sure that I understand. You are a
7 nurse and how many jobs do you have?
8 A. I have four.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Well, they are all per diem. I have one full-time and the
11 others are on a per diem basis as needed. I work 7 to 3 and
12 then the other two are 4 to 9 and the other one is 3 to 11 as
13 needed.
14 Q. Okay. So your full-time job or main job you work 7 to 3,
15 and that job you would continue to be paid even while on jury
16 duty.
17 A. Yes. The other two I would lose money.
18 Q. Okay.
19 Let me just ask you: The other two jobs you get paid
20 for each day you work, is that it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right.
23 If you were chosen to be a juror in this case, we
24 don't sit on Fridays and we don't sit over the weekend and we
25 break each day at about 4:30, so to the extent that you get a
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1 job at night, you actually could even do that. This would
2 essentially be what you would be doing during the day 4 days a
3 week and for this you would be paid the jury fee, which is $40
4 a day and then it goes up to $50 a day after some period, and
5 you would not be working in the evenings or on Fridays or
6 weekends. So I am attentive to plainly to your economic
7 situation and I want to make sure that if you stayed in the
8 process of jury selection that this would not be a serious
9 economic hardship for you.
10 So I have explained to you some about our schedule and
11 the jury fee payment. I mean, it does appear that you would
12 have available to you other opportunities and I am not saying
13 that you have to do that or that you have to work at night or
14 have to work on weekends or Fridays. I am just trying to
15 explain to you what our schedule is so that you can help us
16 determine whether serving as a juror would be a serious
17 economic hardship for you, and in that context, as I told you
18 when I explained to you at the outset in the other courthouse
19 the issues of hardship, jurors -- the parties in the case, both
20 the government and the defendants, are entitled to a fair and
21 impartial jury selected from a cross section of their
22 communities, and people have responsibilities and we all
23 appreciate that.
24 At the same time jury service is an important
25 responsibility of citizenship and if, as I tell prospective
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1 jurors, they were involved in litigation they would want their
2 fellow citizens to step forward and be prepared to serve as
3 jurors in cases. So what I am trying to help you help us to
4 determine is whether if you were selected as a juror, after I
5 have explained all of this and gone over all of your work and
6 you are plainly a hard worker, whether serving on the jury
7 would be a serious economic hardship for you.
8 A. I believe it will be. I believe it will be for me.
9 Q. And why is that?
10 A. Well, like I say, I work 7 to 3. I work about four
11 evenings a week. I just started a new second job, the one 4 to
12 9. I have a lot of bills. I have a lot of financial
13 entanglements that I have to straighten out, so by me working
14 these different jobs is how I am going to be able to do my
15 finances. I mean, if it has to be, it has to be. I mean, I
16 pay a high rent by myself. I have a lot of financial
17 responsibilities, so --
18 Q. You know, you say if it has to be it has to be. I have
19 explained to you and really words cannot convey the importance
20 of jury service. It's fundamental to our system of justice.
21 But people are not forced to be jurors and if -- but plainly a
22 long trial of 4 to 6 months places burdens, I realize that, on
23 anyone who is going to be selected as a juror, but the parties,
24 including parties in a long trial, are entitled to fair,
25 conscientious jurors who are prepared to take on the burdens
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1 and sacrifices of being a juror in a long trial. But I am not
2 going to force you and if you told me that this really was a
3 serious economic hardship, that you really if you were on this
4 jury couldn't make ends meet or that you thought about it and
5 it really is a serious economic hardship for you, I am not
6 going to force you to be on the jury. The jury consists of
7 people who are willing and able to serve and who will be fair
8 and impartial jurors.
9 What I am trying to do is to understand your financial
10 situation and help you to help us understand if this really is
11 a serious economic situation. So that is what you really have
12 to tell me.
13 You are the person who knows your own finances and how
14 this would work into what your situation is.
15 So would it be a serious economic hardship for you?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Can you step out for a moment?
19 A. Yes.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
22 MR. RUHNKE: We certainly agree, your Honor.
23 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 Call juror 187.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror Number 187, I am going to excuse you, and I really
4 very much appreciate your participation in the process, filling
5 out the questionnaire, answering these questions, exploring
6 with yourself whether you could serve as a juror in this case,
7 and I appreciate all of that. And you should take away from
8 this process the satisfaction of knowing that you have
9 performed a public service by participating in the process.
10 So you are excused. You can go home and all of your
11 paperwork will be taken care of by mail.
12 A. Thank you very much. Have a nice day.
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE CLERK: 188.
15 (Juror present)
16 BY THE COURT:
17 Q. Hi, Juror 188. Good to see you.
18 Since you were here last has anything changed
19 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
20 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
21 fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No, Judge.
23 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
24 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
25 it's unlikely you will be called back before June 18, and you
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1 won't have to call in until June 18. Does that present any
2 serious hardship for you?
3 A. No, Judge.
4 Q. And since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
5 about this case or have you looked at or listened to anything
6 about the case?
7 A. No, Judge.
8 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
9 A. No, Judge.
10 Q. And that includes any conversations with any people here at
11 the courthouse or any other prospective jurors.
12 A. No, Judge.
13 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors
14 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
15 A. No, Judge.
16 Q. Let me go over a few of the questions on the questionnaire
17 that you filled out.
18 You explained that you were disabled and could you
19 just explain to me what the nature of your disability is?
20 A. It happened in 1983 that I broke my neck playing high
21 school football, and then I had another accident in 1986. I
22 was run down by a train and I broke my left leg. I am missing
23 my left leg.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Would sitting on the jury and listening to the
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1 evidence here in court present any physical difficulties for
2 you?
3 A. No, Judge.
4 Q. Okay.
5 You would be comfortable sitting as a juror? You are
6 able to listen and there is no pain or anything like that from
7 sitting here?
8 A. Yes, Judge. That is right.
9 Q. Okay.
10 There were a couple of questions -- there was a page
11 that appeared not to have been answered so let me ask you the
12 questions on that page.
13 Can you tell me whether -- you mentioned -- you
14 explained how you were injured both in in high school and later
15 in the train accident and as a result of that you were
16 disabled.
17 Have you ever been employed?
18 A. That was in 1981 from high school. I mean, it was like for
19 3 months working as a porter in Jersey.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And you haven't worked since then?
22 A. No, Judge.
23 Q. And you are single and never been married?
24 A. Yes, Judge.
25 Q. Can you tell me what your parents' occupations either are
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1 or were, your father and your mother?
2 A. My mother is disabled too. She exercise, it's a good
3 income.
4 Q. She does exercise?
5 A. No, she is on Social Security. She is on Social Security
6 income.
7 Q. She is on Social Security?
8 A. Yes, she is an old lady already.
9 Q. And what was her last occupation before she went on Social
10 Security?
11 A. She used to work in a factory making clothes. Baby Togs
12 downtown.
13 Q. Okay.
14 And your father --
15 A. My father doesn't -- he comes and he lives in the Dominican
16 Republic. He used to live in Providence, Boston,
17 Massachusetts, in Providence.
18 Q. I am sorry?
19 A. He used to live in Providence. I forget the name of the
20 state.
21 Q. What did he do?
22 A. He used to work too.
23 Q. Okay. And what did he work at?
24 A. He worked in a factory. I don't know because he had an
25 accident too and he left.
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1 Q. Is your father still in the Dominican Republic?
2 A. Yes, he comes and goes back. He doesn't -- my father and
3 my mother are not together.
4 Q. Okay.
5 And he still works in a factory in the Dominican
6 Republic?
7 A. No, he doesn't work.
8 Q. Oh, okay.
9 A. Like he is 84 years old already.
10 Q. All right.
11 In the past ten years have you ever been actively
12 involved in any religious activities or organizations?
13 A. No, Judge.
14 Q. Have you or anyone close to you, any member of your family,
15 ever been in the military, including the reserves, the National
16 Guard or the ROTC?
17 A. My grandfather, he fought in World War One.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. His name is --
20 Q. I am sorry?
21 A. My grandfather's name was Jacinto Adams --
22 Q. Don't tell us the names. We don't go into names.
23 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
24 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No, Judge.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you have never had any prior experience
2 as a juror, is that right?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you have never been on a grand jury before? You have
5 never been on a grand jury.
6 A. No, I just had cases, lawyers defending me to get money for
7 the accidents that I had before.
8 Q. I am going to get to that in just a moment.
9 Do you belong to any organizations, civic, social,
10 religious, charitable, volunteer, professional?
11 A. No, Judge.
12 Q. You mentioned that you read the newspapers each day?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you read the New York Post, the Daily News, the New
15 York Times?
16 A. Yes, Judge.
17 Q. Is there any particular source of news that you rely on
18 most?
19 A. No, Judge.
20 Q. You mentioned that you use a computer.
21 A. Sometimes, just to play some games.
22 Q. Oh, okay.
23 Do you ever use a computer to get any news?
24 A. No, Judge.
25 Q. You mentioned that you were in court in connection with
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1 your high school football accident.
2 A. Yes, Judge.
3 Q. And that you were also in court in connection with the
4 train accident.
5 A. Yes, Judge.
6 Q. Could you tell me with respect to your high school football
7 accident why it was that you were in court?
8 A. Because we were suing the Board of Education for $20
9 million and we won the case when we were in court and then
10 they -- the lawyers that were fighting for the Board of
11 Education, they -- we won the case and they sent it -- they
12 send it -- they didn't want to lose so they sent it back to see
13 if they can win. But we won in court. We won in court, but I
14 didn't get no money because then I had the accident of the
15 train.
16 Q. Let's deal with the football accident. Did that case go to
17 trial?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had a trial?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the jury came out your way?
22 A. Yes, Judge.
23 Q. And was there an appeal?
24 A. Yes, an appeal, there was.
25 Q. And the Board of Education won on appeal?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And so you didn't get any money.
3 A. No, Judge.
4 Q. Where was that case? Where did you go to trial on that
5 case?
6 A. The Bronx court.
7 Q. Okay.
8 And then you had the train accident?
9 A. Yes, Judge.
10 Q. And you hired a lawyer to represent you in connection with
11 the train accident?
12 A. The same lawyer that was before in the football accident.
13 Q. And that case I think you told us was settled?
14 A. Yes, Judge.
15 Q. And it was settled before the case ever went to trial?
16 A. Yes, Judge.
17 Q. But you were not happy with the settlement?
18 A. No, Judge.
19 Q. It was a lot less than you thought the case was worth?
20 A. Yes, Judge.
21 Q. Now, are there any other occasions when you or someone
22 close to you has been in court?
23 A. No, Judge.
24 Q. Okay.
25 Based on the experiences that you had with the court
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1 system, could you be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. Yes, Judge.
3 Q. Do you have any prejudices against any of the parties in
4 this case or any of the lawyers as a result of anything that
5 happened to you that would interfere with your ability to be a
6 fair and impartial juror?
7 A. No, Judge.
8 Q. You were unhappy with the lawyer who represented you?
9 A. Yes, Judge.
10 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Would you hold it against any of the lawyers in this case,
3 whether for the government or the defendants?
4 A. No, Judge.
5 Q. You mention that either you or a family member has belonged
6 to an organization that takes positions on gun control such as
7 the National Rifle Association?
8 A. Yes, Judge.
9 Q. Who is that?
10 A. Myself.
11 Q. And what organizations do you belong to?
12 A. NRA, National Rifle Association.
13 Q. National Rifle Association.
14 A. Yes, Judge.
15 Q. When you say you belong to the organization, do you
16 contribute to the organization or do you go to meetings or what
17 do you do?
18 A. Yes, contribute. I'm a gun professional.
19 Q. I'm sorry?
20 A. I'm a gun professional.
21 Q. Oh?
22 A. Gun professional.
23 Q. You're a gun professional?
24 A. Yes, up to that -- call by mail.
25 Q. Oh, I see. When did you do that.
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1 A. That was 1993, 1994.
2 Q. And have you continued to be a member of the NRA since
3 then?
4 A. No, because I'm bankrupt.
5 Q. What?
6 A. I'm bankrupt.
7 Q. Oh, okay. So you're not now a member of the NRA?
8 A. No, Judge.
9 Q. You say that you're bankrupt. Did you ever go -- did you
10 have to go to court or hire a lawyer? Are you -- or are you
11 just using that as an expression to say that you don't have
12 money?
13 A. Yeah, because I wrote to the President Bush, President
14 Bush, because I'm a representative from New York of the
15 Republican presidential round table, and I write a letter to
16 the White House and to help any people that -- because the
17 money -- the settlement that I won, I get that money to this
18 lawyer to get me worth, a transaction, and so I read in the
19 U.S. News & World Report that they were taking advantage of
20 some of the disabled people that do the same as I used to do,
21 so I wrote a letter to the White House, sent them the article
22 of the magazine of the U.S. News & World Report, and we went to
23 a settlement for the White House against the lawyers that gave
24 me the transaction, and we won the transaction. But I haven't
25 received no money from the transaction yet.
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1 Q. You sued the lawyer?
2 A. No, the White House -- like a group of people go against
3 the lawyer and -- the White House, defendants, from the money
4 they were taking finance -- from the settlement, I sold them
5 all the money that -- in the bank.
6 Q. Are you saying the White House --
7 A. Yes, the White House.
8 Q. The president?
9 A. It was President Clinton. President Clinton, when I wrote
10 the letter to the White House.
11 Q. All right. You got the White House to pursue the lawyer
12 who had, you thought, taken advantage of you?
13 A. Yes, Judge.
14 Q. But that never went to court?
15 A. Yes, it went to court. It was like, what you call it, it
16 was a case that all of us, disabled people, that the
17 transaction from the -- went worth, they beat them for like
18 four million at least. But I haven't received no money yet.
19 Q. Is that case still pending?
20 A. No, we won in 2001.
21 Q. Do you know -- you say that you won in 2001.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know what's happened to the --
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you being represented by a lawyer in that case?
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1 A. No, Judge. I was just taking -- I was taking some money
2 from the lawyer -- the transaction, and I use to go to see --
3 the lawyer, Karen Walinsky, she used to help me get the money,
4 like 2,000, and like 50,000 for the transaction.
5 Q. But you don't know what the current status of that --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- that suit is. Have you ever had to go to court in
8 connection with that?
9 A. No. They call me up from the White House, White House
10 funding, that probably was supposed to get some money from
11 them, because I was writing to White House, and before
12 President Clinton had impeachment, '97, '98? -- he came to see
13 me in the bus. I saw him in Bus Number 10 going up to Clinton
14 High School. When he got on, I told him with my lips to get
15 out from the back door of the bus because there was two people
16 that got in and I knew them. So he got off to take his
17 limousine, I think.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Then I wrote him a letter why I did that.
20 Q. There was one question on the questionnaire that asks --
21 and I wasn't clear if you had answered it or not -- one of the
22 defendants in this case is a criminal defense attorney who
23 previously represented Sheikh Abdel Rahman in a criminal
24 prosecution against Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Is there anything
25 about that fact that would make it difficult for you to be a
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1 fair and impartial juror in this case?
2 A. No, Judge.
3 Q. You mention that you knew people who were injured or killed
4 in the World Trade Center?
5 A. Yes, Judge.
6 Q. How many people was that?
7 A. A lot.
8 Q. How close to you were they?
9 A. I guess friends -- friendship.
10 Q. Friends?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This case is not about 9/11, or none of the charges in this
13 case involve 9/11. Is there anything about your experiences
14 and your relations with your friends that would prevent you
15 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No, Judge.
17 Q. You mention that you were at the FBI building in lower
18 Manhattan, or at least that you knew of the FBI building. Do
19 you know anyone who works at the FBI building?
20 A. I just call them to tell them -- to see what I can do with
21 these people. I have a lot of cons around me, especially
22 the -- like I won the Lotto for four millions, and I send a
23 ticket by mail, and they took it from me. That happen last
24 year, July 28, 2003.
25 Q. You complained to the FBI?
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1 A. I wrote a letter to President Bush about that.
2 Q. About?
3 A. About the money that was taken from me from the lottery of
4 New York that I sent -- I sent in the mail.
5 Q. Which money was that?
6 A. Money that I won in the Lotto, Lotto ticket. Four
7 millions -- I don't know how much millions. And some of the
8 people that I knew in Channel 7 getting the money, 5 million to
9 this and 5 million to that. And the one that was there, too,
10 was the one that sold me the ticket, in the store where I
11 bought it.
12 Q. What ticket?
13 A. A Lotto ticket.
14 Q. The lottery ticket?
15 A. Lottery ticket, yes.
16 Q. I'm not sure you've told me about a problem with the
17 lottery ticket before.
18 A. No. I just wrote a letter to the president of the United
19 States, that's it, President Bush. And he can't help me. Then
20 I call the lottery office to see if they can do something about
21 that.
22 Q. What was the problem with the lottery ticket?
23 A. They took it from me.
24 Q. Oh, who took it from you?
25 A. The cons that I have around me, because every morning --
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1 they work everywhere. They be everywhere. They be in the
2 bank, they be in Police Plaza. They be everywhere.
3 Q. Who is everywhere?
4 A. The people that live around me -- they're at the store and
5 they always be taking everything from me, every money that I
6 have.
7 Q. Who is this?
8 A. They are all around me. They cons, like -- they're not
9 only one, there's a lot of them. I can't do nothing about it,
10 Judge.
11 Q. You mention that you knew -- well, you had a familiarity
12 with the United States Courthouse and the Department of Justice
13 and Immigration Court. How do you know those buildings?
14 A. I've been there.
15 Q. Why were you in those buildings?
16 A. To help some people, immigration, when they need help to
17 get passport or they need they residence. They need somebody
18 that speak the language. I speak Spanish fluent, and so I'm
19 there to -- for translation. And I went to Police Plaza to get
20 like a license to get -- so I can use any weapon in New York
21 State. So they know about that I was a gun professional.
22 Q. You were told that a criminal defendant has the right not
23 to testify at trial and if the defendant doesn't testify, the
24 jury may not draw any inferences against the defendant based on
25 that decision. The fact that defendant chooses not to testify
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1 may not enter into the jury's deliberation.
2 Will you accept and apply that rule of law?
3 A. I may feel for that -- Amendment Six, they cannot
4 testify -- they don't have to testify for Amendment Six.
5 Q. I don't --
6 A. I mean, the amendment. I just read it. If he don't want
7 to testify, he don't have to testify, Amendment Six. It's the
8 Fifth or the Sixth and the Seventh.
9 Q. I'm --
10 A. I just read it in the computer. I don't know what I'm
11 talking about now.
12 Q. Okay. In a criminal case, the burden of proof rests with
13 the prosecution. In order for the jury to return a verdict,
14 the -- against a defendant, the prosecution must prove the
15 defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. A person charged
16 with a crime has absolutely no burden to prove that the
17 defendant is not guilty. Will you accept that rule of law?
18 A. If he's not guilty? Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
20 A. Sure.
21 (Juror absent)
22 MR. RUHNKE: We think the juror should be excused,
23 your Honor.
24 MR. DEMBER: I think we do, too, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: I agree.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Juror 1 88, I'm going to excuse you from the process at
4 this point. I very much appreciate your participating in the
5 jury selection process, and I want you to appreciate that you
6 have performed a public service by filling out the
7 questionnaire and going through this questioning process. The
8 system cannot exist without citizens such as yourself who are
9 prepared to participate in this process. And I very much
10 appreciate your willingness to do that and the time that it's
11 taken. So you should take away the satisfaction of knowing
12 that you've performed a public service.
13 You're excused now and all of your paperwork will be
14 taken care of by mail.
15 A. Thank you, Judge.
16 (Juror absent)
17 DEPUTY CLERK: 192. And we have a note from the
18 marshals, from the Jury Administrator.
19 THE COURT: Juror 190 is coming in around noon. Juror
20 183 is scheduled for June the 1st. And Juror 200 is previously
21 excused. Right?
22 MR. DEMBER: Yes.
23 MR. RUHNKE: We have that.
24 THE COURT: 200 is excused. So 200 is not missing.
25 DEPUTY CLERK: All right.
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1 THE COURT: So this should be 192.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Hi, Juror 192.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Good morning. It's good to see you.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
9 your ability to serve as a juror in this case, or has anything
10 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
11 impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
14 chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So after
15 today, it's unlikely that you'll have to call in until June the
16 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken with anyone about
19 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
20 the case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
23 any conversations in the courthouse or with any other
24 prospective jurors?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. While you were waiting with the prospective jurors, did you
2 or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. In responding to the questionnaire, you indicated that
5 you -- that serving on the jury would cause you economic
6 hardship, and that you didn't know if it would be serious
7 hardship. Could you just explain to me why you think it would
8 be economic hardship for you?
9 A. Well, my work isn't going to pay me my full salary, so I'd
10 be living on the 40 or $50 day per diem.
11 Q. Well --
12 A. I just got out of school last year and I'm trying to get my
13 feet off the ground, and I think it would be hard to live on my
14 own at $40 a day for six months.
15 Q. Do you live with your parents now?
16 A. I do. And I'm planning on moving out in August.
17 Q. You said that your work would not pay full salary?
18 A. I think we cover three days for jury.
19 Q. And after that, they don't pay?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Well, you know, you have to help me to understand what your
22 situation is. You're living at home now. You're planning to
23 move out at the end of August. This case is scheduled to last
24 about, an estimate, four to six months. It's to begin the end
25 of June. You are -- we sit four days a week, usually, so we
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1 don't sit on Fridays. We don't sit on weekends. To the extent
2 that you could work at your job on those days, that's a
3 possibility.
4 There's a responsibility on the part of citizens to
5 serve as jurors. The parties are entitled to have a jury from
6 a fair cross section of their -- chosen from a fair cross
7 section of their community, which is people with
8 responsibilities and the issue then becomes whether this would
9 be such a severe economic hardship for you that you want to
10 tell me that it rises to that level that this is a case that
11 you shouldn't serve on that another citizen should serve on.
12 And it's hard for me to get a fix on what your real financial
13 situation is. I know you recently have been out of college. I
14 know this is your first job. You are living at home now. I
15 don't know what your situation would be after August, and after
16 August, that will be perhaps two months into the job. I don't
17 know what your resources are. I don't know who you would be
18 rooming with, if anyone.
19 So you have to help me to understand whether this
20 would be such a serious economic hardship for you that this is
21 not a case on which you should serve.
22 A. I guess the issue is, I've spent the last year saving money
23 to move out of my parents' house. And I would be dipping into
24 a considerable portion of that savings to serve on this case.
25 So in that sense, it's serious to me because it would negate a
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1 lot of the hard work I've put into my employment.
2 Q. But you wouldn't be -- I mean, you wouldn't be penalized at
3 your job, you might not get your --
4 A. I mean, I'd be penalized in the sense that at the one year
5 mark, I would be eligible for promotion, but I would be missing
6 out on that if I was with the case.
7 Q. You've put money aside so that you can move out and you
8 would have to dip into that if you served as a juror. Would
9 that be -- do you have an apartment already?
10 A. My friends found a place in Yonkers.
11 Q. Don't tell us where.
12 A. Sorry.
13 Q. So you'd be sharing the rent?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Would it -- if you were -- you had indicated that -- you
16 were very forthright in bringing this to my attention on the
17 questionnaire. And indicating that you didn't know if it was a
18 serious hardship.
19 A. Yeah, I mean, it's not like -- I'm not supporting two
20 children or something like that. I consider that a much more
21 serious hardship than what I -- my current situation. But at
22 the same time, I do think out of 500 people, there might be
23 some people who would be better candidates to serve than
24 myself.
25 Q. You know, it's remarkable how many people can say that. It
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1 really depends on a personal perspective. An individual's
2 duties and responsibilities, when seen by the person, are --
3 you don't get the appreciation for everyone else's
4 responsibilities.
5 Let me ask you this: If you were chosen as a juror in
6 this case, would you be a fair and impartial juror?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you hold
9 it against any of the parties that I had decided that your
10 situation did not rise to the level of serious hardship to be
11 excused?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Would you be -- would anything about serving on the jury,
14 despite your economic situation, prevent you from being a fair
15 and impartial juror and giving all of the parties in this case
16 your undivided attention and your fair and impartial
17 consideration?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Let me ask you a few other questions. You mentioned in
20 college that you had belonged to an organization for criminal
21 justice awareness.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Could you tell me what that organization was about?
24 A. I guess -- I didn't spend much time doing it. Just a few
25 months. But I guess in Raleigh, there's a state prison, and
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1 like -- my involvement was, I went to some meetings and we did
2 some fliers that we handed out. And some people did some
3 counseling. But I didn't stay with the organization too long.
4 Q. Anything about your activities in that organization that
5 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
6 case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You mention that you had -- you've worked in the past with
9 people of Middle Eastern descent. Do you know what countries
10 they came from or were descended from?
11 A. No. I don't have any bias in that sense.
12 Q. Okay. You mention that you knew people who were murdered
13 in the World Trade Center. Can you tell me how many people you
14 knew?
15 A. Just one classmate.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. From high school.
18 Q. High school classmate?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Okay. This case is not about 9/11. The charges in this
21 case are not about 9/11. The defendants in this case are not
22 accused of having done anything in connection with 9/11.
23 Would any of your experience with 9/11 prevent you
24 from being fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. I don't think so.
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1 Q. People respond differently. Do you have any reason to
2 believe that you would not be a fair and impartial juror in
3 this case?
4 A. I mean, if I was selected, I would try to uphold my civic
5 responsibility. But six months is a very long time.
6 Q. Yeah. You know, I decide on economic hardship. And it's
7 very important, very important, that in responding to my
8 questions, you understand that what you're telling me is, under
9 oath, and you're an extremely bright, forthright person. And
10 you've already told me -- we've gone over the economic
11 situation. And you've told me that there's nothing about that
12 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror.
13 And so, you know, now I'm going over some other issues, which
14 so far, you know, under -- in the way in which you've answered
15 the questions on the questionnaire, do not suggest in any way
16 that they would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
17 juror. And I'm following up. And I --
18 A. I'm not going to misrepresent the truth to get off the
19 case. I'm not a dishonest person.
20 Q. And I -- so let me ask you: Is there anything about your
21 relations with the high school classmate that you knew about
22 9/11 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
23 juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You -- there were a series of questions that I asked, and I
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1 didn't always ask them in the same way. A -- so let me ask you
2 this question again. A criminal defendant has the right not to
3 testify. If the defendant does not testify, the jury may not
4 draw any inference against the defendant based on that
5 decision. The fact that a defendant chooses not to testify may
6 not enter into the jury's deliberation. Will you accept and
7 apply that rule of law?
8 A. Yeah, Fifth Amendment.
9 Q. I'm sorry?
10 A. Fifth Amendment.
11 Q. Yes. That right is based on the Fifth Amendment. The only
12 reason I ask it is that on the questionnaire, you had said no,
13 and I thought that that was probably a mistake.
14 A. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
15 Q. It's all right. But we try to be thorough.
16 Now, if you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
17 would be required to decide the case based solely on the
18 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
19 instructions on the law. Would you do that?
20 A. Uh-huh -- yes.
21 Q. As you can tell with all of these questions, the
22 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
23 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
24 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
25 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
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1 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
2 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Would you -- I should -- we've explored these issues
5 on the questionnaire. You had noted the duration of the case
6 when I asked if there was any doubt in your mind as to whether
7 you could be a fair and objective juror. And whether there was
8 anything that causes you to doubt that you could be a fair and
9 objective juror. We've gone over the duration of the case, so
10 let me ask you one final time:
11 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
12 be a fair and impartial juror?
13 A. I think I would.
14 Q. Do you have any -- looking at yourself, knowing yourself,
15 will you be a fair and impartial juror?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Could you step out?
18 (Juror absent)
19 MR. TIGAR: We request that your Honor follow up a
20 little bit with respect to that organization in which he was a
21 member. Did he actually go into the prison in Raleigh? And
22 what was the issue that was raised in the fliers that they
23 handed out.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I'll do that. It struck me as a --
25 I'll ask the question.
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1 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in North Carolina there's a
2 great deal of dispute about the death penalty, prison
3 conditions and so on, and I wanted to know if there was
4 anything about those fliers that involved those issues.
5 THE COURT: It really -- this organization left me
6 with the impression, first of all, that he was not that
7 involved with it, but that in any event, it would have been a
8 prison or defendant awareness organization, and -- but I'll
9 pursue it. I just would have thought that the questions came
10 more from the other table on that issue. But I'll ask that --
11 I'll ask those couple of questions.
12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, in the questionnaire, the
13 juror indicated that he has a friend who's serving a prison
14 sentence for armed robbery. Would you ask him some questions
15 about his -- about that, and his ability to be fair? If
16 there's anything about that that might affect him? It's
17 Question 45, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Thank you. I missed that. Thank you. If
19 these questions don't produce anything that suggests a
20 challenge for cause, I'll ask the juror to come back, call in
21 on June the 18th. Do the parties agree?
22 MR. RUHNKE: We agree, your Honor.
23 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Hi.
3 A. Hi.
4 Q. I had a few other follow-up questions. You had mentioned
5 that in connection with a committee in college -- the criminal
6 justice awareness committee. Did you actually go into any of
7 the prisons in North Carolina?
8 A. No, I didn't follow through with that portion of that.
9 Q. Okay. Do you know what the fliers were about that the
10 committee was handing out?
11 A. It was mostly just, I guess, rights, the rights of the
12 prisoners.
13 Q. Okay. Anything about any of that that would prevent you
14 from being fair and impartial?
15 A. No, I wasn't very involved with it. I did go to a few
16 meetings, so I wanted to bring that up.
17 (Continued on next page)
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1 Q. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention. You also
2 mentioned that you had a friend who is currently in prison and
3 can you tell me what state that is in or where?
4 A. He is in upstate New York.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Was that as a result of a state or a federal
7 conviction? Do you know?
8 A. State.
9 Q. And have you visited him?
10 A. I had planned to visit in June with his mother.
11 Q. And is there anything about that that would prevent you
12 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
13 A. No. I don't think so.
14 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that?
15 A. Excuse me?
16 Q. You say you don't think so?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Juror 192, you are still in the process so I will ask you
19 to call back on June 18. And Mr. Fletcher will give you a
20 paper with the instructions. Please continue to follow my
21 instructions. They are very important and I appreciate your
22 having followed them so far. Please don't talk about this case
23 or anything to do with it with anyone. Please don't look at,
24 listen to, read anything about the case. If you should see
25 something in the papers just turn away.
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1 Remember, as I will tell all of the jurors who finally
2 get selected, it's very important to keep an open mind until
3 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on
4 the law, and you have gone to the jury room to begin your
5 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires
6 that you do that.
7 All right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Have a good day.
10 (Juror absent)
11 THE COURT: Perhaps this is a good time to take our
12 break.
13 Before we take the break, in the next questionnaire
14 there was an issue in number 9 about whether that is sufficient
15 identifying information. The parties may want to talk about
16 that. I just don't know. I don't know whether those are last
17 names or not and I don't know how sufficiently identifying that
18 is. So could the parties at least consult on that during the
19 break and I am happy to ask the prospective juror about that.
20 But just talk about it for a couple of minutes.
21 (Recess)
22 THE COURT: Please be seated all.
23 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we have spoken about this
24 next juror and specifically question number 9 and some of us
25 believe that the juror has used the last name of the children
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1 are what she has written. I know we aren't sure of that so we
2 jointly suggest or ask the court to ask this juror as the first
3 question whether or not she has listed -- whether those are
4 first and last names of her children and if her answer is yes I
5 believe both sides agree she should be excused.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. RUHNKE: Judge, that is correct.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 Call Juror 195.
10 (Pages 947-949 SEALED)
11 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE CLERK: 158.
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good morning, sir.
4 A. Hi.
5 Q. Could you help me just for a moment, are you Juror 158?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Good morning. Since you were here last has anything
9 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
10 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
11 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
14 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So you won't
15 have to call back until June 18th. Does that present any
16 serious hardship for you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
19 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
20 the case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
23 any conversations here in the courthouse or with any other
24 prospective jurors?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
2 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right.
5 You indicated on your questionnaire that serving on
6 the jury would present some economic hardship but that it was
7 not a serious hardship for you, is that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And could you just explain to me why it would be some
10 economic hardship but why it really doesn't rise to the level
11 of serious?
12 A. Okay, I left my last job February 10 and am in the process
13 of looking for work. My wife and I also have made application
14 to the Peace Corps. Nothing so far as happened to find a job
15 and of course the Peace Corps takes months to find out about
16 what is going on there.
17 We are at close to retirement age, within a year, a
18 year and a half of retirement, so one of our options is
19 actually to not get a job and in a sense retire.
20 We are financially able to do that at any time.
21 Currently my wife is freelance working at home and I am at home
22 job searching but we can take a break from that. I can.
23 Q. Okay, thank you.
24 Could you tell me, you mentioned that your father was
25 a lawyer. Can you tell me what type of law your father
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1 practiced?
2 A. For the bulk of his life he was the house counsel for
3 Northwestern University.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Nothing specific, okay. And after that he was in a small
6 essentially what you might call a small town practice, even
7 though it wasn't necessarily a small town, mostly working in
8 probate.
9 Q. Okay. All right.
10 And, again, in response to the questions don't provide
11 me with any specific information about employers or specific
12 places or specific people. I ask it in terms of general types
13 of, for example, law and that sort of thing.
14 You mentioned that you once served on a jury and that
15 was in New York State court in Westchester. It was an auto
16 accident. About how long ago was that?
17 A. Oh, boy, more than ten and probably less than 15, somewhere
18 in there.
19 Q. Okay.
20 And you were the foreperson of the jury?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the jury reached a verdict? Don't tell us what it was.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Is there anything about that experience or your reaction to
25 the process or any of the people involved in the process that
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1 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
2 case?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. You mentioned that you have made occasional gifts to the
5 ACLU, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
8 fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. You mentioned that your son was briefly a police officer.
11 When was that?
12 A. That was about 4 years ago.
13 Q. Can you just tell me in general what area of the country
14 that your son was a police officer?
15 A. Far west.
16 Q. I am sorry?
17 A. Far west.
18 Q. Far west, okay.
19 And is there anything about that that would prevent
20 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Will you accept my instruction that no witness is entitled
23 to any greater or lesser credibility or deference because of
24 their occupation, and that includes law enforcement personnel?
25 A. Certainly.
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1 Q. You mentioned that you had an issue with respect to
2 evidence which might be evidence of attorney-client
3 conversations.
4 Let me explain something. If you were chosen as a
5 juror in this case, one of the things that I would explain to
6 the jurors, and which I will tell you now, is any evidence that
7 is admitted in the case is legally admissible evidence. It's
8 admissible because as a matter of law the court determines that
9 the jury can hear that evidence and issues of law are for the
10 court, not for the jury. The jury's function is to determine
11 whether based on the evidence or lack of evidence the
12 government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
13 reasonable doubt based on the evidence or lack of evidence.
14 So the jury is to consider all of the evidence in the
15 case or the lack of evidence and it's not for the jury to say I
16 like that evidence or I don't like that evidence or to try to
17 second guess the court's determinations of whether evidence is
18 admissible or not admissible. All of that is for the court.
19 It's for the jury to look at the evidence and determine, based
20 upon the evidence or lack of evidence, whether the government
21 has proven the charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable
22 doubt.
23 Do you understand that?
24 A. Yes. That statement was based as a nonjuror as a member of
25 the public not understanding the law, so I basically was saying
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1 I don't know, you know, was that okay or not.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And if it is okay, then I can certainly reach a judgment
4 based on the facts therein.
5 Q. Okay.
6 So now that I have explained this to you and I very
7 much appreciate your explanation, is there anything about that
8 type of evidence, given my instructions, that would prevent you
9 from being a fair and impartial juror in the case?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. You mentioned that your son had visited Jordan, Palestine
12 and Israel on a college sponsored trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell me when that was?
15 A. That would have to be about 16 years ago.
16 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
17 fair and impartial juror in this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You mentioned that you had heard media accounts of Sheikh
20 Abdel Rahman's trial.
21 Can you describe for me what you recall seeing or
22 hearing about that?
23 A. Not a lot. I cannot really provide you with any detailed
24 information on it. I knew of the trial, knew of the result of
25 the trial, but at this point I have no detailed recall of it.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 And you mentioned that you recall seeing something
3 about this case.
4 A. Yes. It was something -- is what raised that previous
5 question in my mind and, again, I think it was only one account
6 that I read of it.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Can you recall what account it was that you read of
9 this case?
10 A. Not specifically. It was most likely in the New York
11 Times. That is what I read.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And it was just describing the question of a lawyer for
14 this gentleman who was allegedly involved in transmitting
15 information to other parties. I don't even recollect if it
16 said who those parties were.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Anything else?
19 A. No, that is it.
20 Q. All right.
21 Now, with respect to anything that you saw, heard or
22 read about this case or about Sheikh Abdel Rahman, the basic
23 principles of law are the same. It is always possible coming
24 into a case that jurors have seen, heard or read something
25 about the case or about some matters which may have something
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1 to do with the case.
2 It is important that jurors understand that their
3 verdict in court has to be based solely on the evidence or lack
4 of evidence in court and not based on anything they may have
5 seen, heard or read in the past. They have to put aside
6 anything they may have seen, heard or read in the past and
7 decide this case based solely upon the evidence or lack of
8 evidence that is presented here in court. They have to ask
9 themselves what is the evidence or lack of evidence and has the
10 government proven the charges in the indictment beyond a
11 reasonable doubt at trial.
12 Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And is there anything that you have seen, heard or read
15 that would prevent you from doing that?
16 A. No, sir, I don't think so.
17 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that?
18 A. Nothing in my history that I know of.
19 Q. You will follow my instructions?
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. If you were -- and I know this is a little repetitious but
22 it's important to me -- chosen as a juror in this case you
23 would be required to decide the case based solely on the
24 evidence or lack of evidence and my instructions on the law.
25 Would you do that?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And as you can tell from all of these questions, the
3 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
4 history or life experience, whether I have asked you about it
5 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
6 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
7 time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you about
8 it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a
9 fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Could you step out a moment?
13 A. Yes.
14 (Juror absent)
15 THE COURT: No questions? No challenges?
16 Let's bring back Juror 158.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 A. I am sorry for the demonstration of my agility.
20 Q. I was concerned that you were okay.
21 Juror 158, you are still involved in the jury
22 selection process. You will be asked to call back on June
23 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper indicating
24 where to call back and please remember it's very important to
25 continue following my instructions. Please don't talk about
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1 this case at all or anything that has anything to do with it.
2 Please remember to keep -- please don't look at or listen to
3 anything to do with the case. If you should see something just
4 turn away, or hear something, just turn away. As I will tell
5 the jurors who are finally selected, remember to keep an open
6 mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have
7 instructed you on the law, and you have gone to the jury room
8 to begin your deliberations.
9 All right?
10 It's good to see you. Have a good trip home.
11 (Juror absent)
12 THE CLERK: 190.
13 (Juror present)
14 BY THE COURT:
15 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 190.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. It's nice to see you.
18 Since you were here last has anything changed
19 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
20 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
21 fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. My children paid the cruise for my husband and myself on
23 the occasion of our 46th anniversary and I am supposed to leave
24 the 29th.
25 Q. You are leaving the 29th of May?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how long will you be away?
3 A. One week.
4 Q. Okay. That is not a problem because you won't have to call
5 back until June 18th.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. The jury will not be selected until June 21st, so you won't
8 have to call back until June 18th. Okay?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
11 A. No. I hope I don't forget like last night.
12 Q. I am sorry?
13 A. Okay, I will call, yes.
14 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
15 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything to do
16 with the case?
17 A. No, your Honor, no.
18 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
19 A. No, your Honor.
20 Q. And that includes any conversations here in the courthouse
21 or with any other prospective jurors.
22 A. No.
23 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
24 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. I know that this is personal but could you tell me how old
2 you are?
3 A. It's no problem, 67.
4 Q. Because that was a question that was just blank.
5 A. I am sorry.
6 Q. That is all right.
7 You mentioned that you were born in Italy.
8 A. Yes, your Honor.
9 Q. And can you tell me when you left Italy?
10 A. On 1957.
11 Q. Where did you go then from Italy?
12 A. To Venezuela.
13 Q. And how long did you spend in Venezuela?
14 A. 9 years.
15 Q. And after Venezuela -- what did you do in Venezuela?
16 A. I married over there.
17 Q. You what?
18 A. I married. I was with my family, my husband, my 2
19 children.
20 Q. Oh, okay.
21 And after Venezuela did you then come to New York?
22 A. Yes, your Honor, I came to New York.
23 Q. And so about how long have you lived in New York?
24 A. Since 1966. That is why my English is no good.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 You said that your English was not perfect.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you understand all the questions on the questionnaire?
4 A. Almost. I try my best. I look at it, I don't know.
5 Q. And you answered all the questions on the questionnaire.
6 Have you understood everything that I have said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And do you read in English?
10 A. Yes, but sometimes I need a dictionary or so. But I read
11 better than I write. I can't write. I can't spell.
12 Q. Okay.
13 There will be a reasonable number of documents in the
14 case. Do you have difficulty reading English?
15 A. It's not perfect. It's a little difficult for me.
16 Q. You have to help me a little in understanding.
17 Do you read the newspapers in English?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How often do you read the newspapers?
20 A. I buy almost every day but sometimes I don't have the time
21 to read.
22 Q. Okay.
23 And what newspapers do you read?
24 A. The Daily News.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 When you read the Daily News you don't read it with a
2 dictionary, do you?
3 A. Sometimes on a word that comes to me what I don't
4 understand what it means or everything so I go to the
5 dictionary.
6 Q. All right.
7 Could you tell me what section -- don't tell us your
8 street address but what general area of the Bronx you live in?
9 A. Maybe in the south.
10 Q. South Bronx, okay.
11 You mentioned that you had children. How many
12 children do you have?
13 A. Two.
14 Q. And could you tell me, do they live with you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 And is it a son, daughter, two sons, two daughters?
18 A. One and one.
19 Q. One and one. And how old are they?
20 A. 44 and 41.
21 Q. Which is 44, the son?
22 A. The daughter.
23 Q. And could you tell me what level of education they have?
24 A. Pardon me?
25 Q. How far did they go in school?
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1 A. Masters degree in education.
2 Q. Both of them?
3 A. Both of them, yes.
4 Q. And can you tell me what they presently do? Don't tell me
5 their specific employer but how are they employed?
6 A. They are with the Board of Education.
7 Q. You mentioned that you had worked --
8 A. Garment industry.
9 Q. I am sorry?
10 A. Garment industry.
11 Q. Yes.
12 And that you stopped doing that in 1996?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 And you also mentioned that you are a student now?
16 A. I will start the 15th, 2 days in the morning, 2 days a
17 week. I take a little course because for the English.
18 Q. Don't tell me the specific school that you go to, but what
19 kind of institution is it that you are going to?
20 A. It's college.
21 Q. You are going to college?
22 A. Continuing education.
23 Q. And you are taking a course in English?
24 A. Yes, your Honor.
25 Q. Twice a week?
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1 A. Now, yes, for this course.
2 Q. When does the course meet?
3 A. It will start June 15.
4 Q. And what days of the week?
5 A. Tuesday and Thursday.
6 Q. What time of day?
7 A. 9:30 to 1:30 -- no, pardon me, 9:30 to 12:30.
8 Q. Okay.
9 If you were chosen as a juror in this case you
10 couldn't go to that class.
11 A. I have a choice?
12 Q. Well --
13 A. If I have a choice you tell me what to do.
14 Q. If you were chosen as a juror could you defer your class
15 until the following semester?
16 A. May I say what I think?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Okay. I don't think you going to choose me because my
19 English is no good.
20 Q. Okay.
21 You know, I really appreciate your explaining it in
22 that way and could you step out for a moment?
23 A. Yes.
24 (Juror absent)
25 (Continued on next page)
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1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if it's a question of English
2 language, she does fine. But -- she seemed to be doing fine
3 with your Honor. If it's a question of whether the school is a
4 hardship, I would leave that up to her. When she says, Do I
5 have a choice, I know it's not theoretically her choice, but if
6 she feels that her school being interrupted would be a serious
7 hardship with her, that's a whole different story. But I don't
8 see an English language problem. We need a cross-section.
9 THE COURT: I don't hear anything from the government
10 on this either.
11 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees with Mr. Ruhnke.
12 THE COURT: Then I'll continue with her. She does
13 respond exceedingly well to the spoken word and knows what's
14 going on and is a woman of -- well-traveled and committed. So
15 I will -- if the parties don't see the language as a problem,
16 then I'll continue with her.
17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, could we find out what her
18 children do for the Board of Education?
19 THE COURT: Sure.
20 MR. TIGAR: Like are they teachers or --
21 THE COURT: I'm not finished by any means. If there
22 are any other questions based upon what's been said so far,
23 I'll follow up now. But I'll ask about the board of education.
24 MR. TIGAR: Thank you.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Hi, Juror 190.
4 A. Hi.
5 Q. Let me follow up on something you said before. You said
6 that we may not want you as a juror because your English is not
7 so good.
8 A. Yes, your Honor. Honestly.
9 Q. Let me explain a couple of things: First, it's very
10 important that the parties in a case have a jury chosen from a
11 cross-section of their community. And the issue of whether a
12 person can serve on the jury, whether they're qualified to
13 serve on the jury, requires that the person be able to
14 understand English and -- because English is the language
15 that's going to be used in the courtroom. But it's apparent to
16 me that we have a perfectly good conversation, and you speak
17 perfectly fine. But you wouldn't be asked to speak in court,
18 obviously. What you have to do is to listen.
19 A. That's right, but I have to understand a hundred percent.
20 Q. I'm sorry?
21 A. I have to understand a hundred percent.
22 Q. Yes. You have to listen and listen carefully, and you've
23 been doing that. And you've been responding to all of my
24 questions, and it's plain to me that you understand what I'm
25 saying. And you've answered a very long questionnaire, and so
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1 you, you know, you have the basic ability to be a juror, and
2 you shouldn't downplay your own ability.
3 Now, with respect to the class that you've described?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I realize that you've signed up for the class. And of
6 course, we don't know, even if you're included in the group of
7 people who may be chosen as jurors, whether you'll eventually
8 be chosen as a juror in this case, because there's another
9 process that we further reduce the number of potential jurors.
10 But at this point, there's the possibility that you could be a
11 juror. If you were a juror, what that would mean was the
12 trial -- the next selection process is June the 21st. That's
13 the day that it is likely that the jury would be selected. And
14 when you would know whether you will be continuing --
15 A. Your Honor, June when?
16 Q. June the 21st. And if you were selected as a juror at that
17 time, then the case would last into -- for four to six months,
18 which would be essentially the fall semester for your class.
19 So would it be a serious hardship for you if you were chosen as
20 a juror to put your class off until next semester?
21 A. No, I don't think so. The only thing, maybe I shouldn't
22 start -- I don't know to start or not because I start on the
23 15. How do I know --
24 Q. If I have to advise you, it's completely up to you -- but
25 if I were to advise you, I would say, you know, you don't know
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1 whether you would be called, whether you would serve. You'll
2 know on -- when we come back on June the 21st, that's the
3 selection process, and if you -- it would be very early in the
4 semester, in any event, if you had to go to the school and say,
5 I'm on jury duty, I've got to continue with this course the
6 following semester.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Does that make sense to you?
9 A. Yes, your Honor.
10 Q. And that would not be a problem for you? That wouldn't be
11 a serious problem, would it?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what type of work your husband did?
14 A. He was mechanic.
15 Q. A mechanic?
16 A. Mechanic, car mechanic. Also, he learn -- he self
17 landscape, like with a machine in Venezuela, and so he done a
18 lot of jobs.
19 Q. What?
20 A. A lot of jobs, like a lot of skill. He has a lot of skill.
21 Q. Okay. You mention that both of your children worked for
22 the Board of Education.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me, just generally, what kinds of work they do
25 for the Board of Education, if you know?
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1 A. No, I know. May I say? I don't know if you want to --
2 Q. Yes. But don't identify them specifically. Just tell me
3 in general what kind of work they do.
4 A. And their education?
5 Q. Are they teachers or --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what subjects they teach?
8 A. Subject?
9 Q. Yeah.
10 A. Yes, I know.
11 Q. You can tell me.
12 A. Bilingual, one. The other one, administration.
13 Q. The other one, what?
14 A. Administration.
15 Q. Ah, okay. All right. You had mentioned that your father
16 was in the Army in Italy many years ago. Is there anything
17 about that that would prevent you from being a fair and
18 impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No, I think you have to judge every action, everything that
20 comes, different situation. Nothing.
21 Q. You mentioned that there was a -- there was one question
22 that you left out. You were asked whether you or your family
23 or close friend had ever sued anyone. Did you or someone close
24 to you sue someone?
25 A. Yes. My daughter.
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1 Q. Okay. And could you tell me what your -- what the nature
2 of the lawsuit your daughter was involved in was?
3 A. Workers' compensation. The husband was killed because of
4 the situation. And the -- my son-in-law died because of an
5 injury on the job. So I don't know if you call this like to
6 sue somebody, but --
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. So, this is the situation.
9 Q. Your son-in-law died and then your daughter sued someone as
10 a result of his death?
11 A. Workers' compensation.
12 Q. Workers' compensation?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. And is there anything about that -- do you know what
15 happened to the lawsuit? Did your daughter --
16 A. They give some money to the children. But nobody could
17 recompense the father, it said.
18 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that lawsuit or your
19 reactions to anything to do with that lawsuit or any of the
20 people or any of the people that would prevent you from
21 being --
22 A. No.
23 Q. -- a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No, because that was work case.
25 Q. You mentioned that you or someone you knew visited Israel
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1 in 1992.
2 A. Myself. And my mother.
3 Q. And can you tell me what the purpose of that trip was? Was
4 it business, pleasure?
5 A. Holy Land.
6 Q. Holy Land?
7 A. Holy Land.
8 Q. Anything about that trip that would prevent you from being
9 a fair and impartial juror?
10 A. No.
11 Q. There was one question -- let me go over a principal of law
12 with you. In a criminal case such as this, a defendant has the
13 absolute right not to testify, it's completely up to the
14 defendant. If the defendant does not testify, the jury may not
15 draw any inference against the defendant based on that
16 decision. The fact that a defendant chooses not to testify may
17 not enter into the jury's deliberations at all. The jury
18 cannot hold it against the defendant because the defendant
19 chooses not to testify at trial. Do you understand that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And will you follow that instruction?
22 A. Yes. I mean, they not called and that -- the bench, with
23 the other information, you have to judge whether it's guilt or
24 not. I understand like that. Correct?
25 Q. You're absolutely right. You have to look at whether the
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1 government has proven the charges in the indictment.
2 A. That's it.
3 Q. On the evidence introduced at trial, and whether the
4 government has proven those charges beyond a reasonable doubt.
5 And in reaching that conclusion, you may not draw any inference
6 or hold it against the defendant, any defendant, if the
7 defendant chooses not to testify at trial. That's completely
8 up to the defendant. It can't enter into your decision.
9 Right?
10 A. It's up to the law. If the law permit it.
11 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
12 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
13 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
14 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
17 issue is whether there's anything in your personal history or
18 life experience that, whether I've asked you about it
19 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
20 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
21 time, whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
22 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
23 and impartial juror in this case.
24 A. As long as they no tell me to lie, I'm ready to serve. But
25 like -- I want to be fair. Just with the law. What the law
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1 permits. That's it. I explain myself?
2 Q. Yes. All right.
3 Could you step out just for a moment?
4 A. Yes.
5 (Juror absent)
6 MR. TIGAR: May we have a moment, please?
7 (Off the record)
8 MR. TIGAR: No questions from the defense, your Honor.
9 MR. MORVILLO: None from the government, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: No questions? No challenges? We'll bring
11 back Juror 190.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Good afternoon again, Juror 190.
15 A. Good afternoon again.
16 Q. You're still in the jury selection process. You'll be
17 asked to call back on June the 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give
18 you a piece of paper with all the instructions on it.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. It is very important that you continue to follow my
21 instructions. Remember, don't talk about the case or anything
22 to do with it. Remember not to look at, listen to or read
23 anything to do with the case. If you should see something,
24 just turn away. Remember to keep an open mind until -- if
25 you're selected as a juror, you've heard all of the evidence,
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1 I've instructed you on the law, and you've gone to the jury
2 room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice
3 requires that you do that. All right?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. All right. Thank you.
6 A. Thank you.
7 (Juror absent)
8 THE COURT: Juror 199?
9 DEPUTY CLERK: I believe so, yes.
10 (Juror present)
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q. Hi.
13 A. Hello.
14 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 199. Good to see you. Let me ask
15 you some preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has
16 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
17 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
18 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. It now appears that the date of the final jury will be
21 chosen will be Monday, June the 21st. So after today, you
22 won't have to call back in until June the 18th.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
25 A. To call back in? No.
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1 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
2 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
3 the case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
6 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
7 prospective jurors?
8 A. No.
9 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
10 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Let me follow up on a few of the questions on the
13 questionnaire. You mention that you had a brother-in-law in
14 the air force and a distant cousin in the Army. Anything about
15 that that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
16 juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mention that your cousin served in Iraq. Is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that would be the cousin in the Army?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And that cousin was in Iraq in 2003 and is scheduled
24 to go back in 2005?
25 A. I'm pretty sure, yeah.
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1 Q. Can you -- what rank is your cousin?
2 A. I'm not really sure, you know. Not too high or nothing.
3 He was in a tank, I believe. Driver or something.
4 Q. Okay. Are you close to your cousin?
5 A. No, I've seen him maybe half a dozen times in my life.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. He lives in Florida.
8 Q. Anything about any of that that would prevent you from
9 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You mention that you have served on one state court jury in
12 a criminal case, resisting arrest, and you were the foreperson
13 of that jury?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Don't tell us what the verdict was, but the jury reached a
16 verdict?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was there anything about that experience with the Court
19 system, with any of the participants in the court system, that
20 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
21 case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned that you have been in court in connection
24 with your divorce. Is there anything about that that would
25 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. Only if my wife was here.
2 Q. You have no reason to believe --
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mention that someone in your family was a victim of a
5 serious crime. Could you describe that?
6 A. A long time ago, my mother was raped.
7 Q. Okay. Was someone prosecuted for that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is there anything about that experience that would prevent
10 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mention that you had brought criminal charges against
13 someone and you have sued someone. Can you explain to me what
14 that was about?
15 A. I had a lawsuit from a car accident. I was hit head-on
16 when I was 18.
17 And someone that was involved with my ex-wife, I had
18 arrested for threatening me.
19 Q. Threatening you?
20 A. Threatening me.
21 Q. The lawsuit relating to the car accident, did that go to
22 trial?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did it settle?
25 A. Settled out of court, yeah.
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1 Q. And the person that you had arrested, did that eventually
2 go to trial?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there anything about those incidents or anything to do
5 with those incidents or your reactions to the incidents or any
6 of the participants or anything that would prevent you from
7 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You mentioned that either you or someone close to you had
10 been falsely accused of a crime, and you had marked it private.
11 Could you tell me about that?
12 A. With my divorce, my wife had me arrested for supposedly
13 harassing her on the phone. It was not true. But she was
14 using it as a pawn, you know, for the settlement and all that.
15 Q. Okay. I must have misunderstood before. It was -- your
16 wife had you arrested?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. And did you have someone arrested also?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And did anything come of your arrest?
21 A. No. She dropped it. It was all, you know, part of the
22 divorce problems.
23 Q. Anything about that situation or any of the participants or
24 anything that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
25 juror in this case?
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1 A. No. I mean, I didn't appreciate being arrested with no
2 evidence or anything like that. But, you know, that's it.
3 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, would you
4 listen to the evidence or lack of evidence in this case and
5 decide this case based solely on the evidence?
6 A. Most definitely.
7 Q. You mention that you had heard of or seen something about
8 Sheikh Abdel Rahman on TV news program. Can you tell me what,
9 if anything, you recall?
10 A. I just recall seeing his picture and them talking about
11 him. I don't recall, you know, the specifics of it.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. But I have seen him on TV, like a news channel or
14 something.
15 Q. You also recall seeing or hearing something about this
16 case. Can you tell me with an what, if anything, you recall
17 seeing or hearing?
18 A. I don't recall the specifics. I do recall seeing it in the
19 paper, you know, an article on it. I don't know if I read the
20 whole article or not. But I do recall something of it.
21 Q. Okay. Do you recall what newspaper this was?
22 A. More than likely the Daily News or the Rockland Journal
23 news, or Westchester Journal news.
24 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, one of
25 the things that I'd make clear is that the jurors have to put
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1 aside anything they've seen, heard or read before coming to
2 court. And they have to decide the case based solely upon the
3 evidence or lack of evidence that's brought out here in court.
4 Would you do that?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Is there anything that you've seen, heard or read that
7 would prevent you from doing that?
8 A. I don't believe so.
9 Q. Would you be a fair and impartial juror and decide the case
10 based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence that you see
11 and hear in court?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I went over the various principals of law. Let me go over
14 one again with you, and I -- in a criminal case, a defendant
15 has the absolute right not to testify. If the defendant does
16 not testify, the jury may not draw any inference against the
17 defendant based on that decision. The fact that a defendant
18 chooses not to testify may not enter into the jury's
19 deliberation.
20 Will you accept and apply that rule of law?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Okay. You had said no on the questionnaire. But it was in
23 a series of questions which you otherwise answered no to, so I
24 thought it might be a mistake. But you'll follow that rule of
25 law?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
3 required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
4 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law. Will you do
5 that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
8 fundamental issue is whether there's anything in your personal
9 history or life experience, whether I've asked you about it
10 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
11 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
12 time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you about it
13 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
14 and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I don't believe so. I'm a fair person, I believe.
16 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Would you step out, please?
19 (Juror absent)
20 MR. TIGAR: We'd request your Honor follow up and ask
21 the juror about his attitude towards lawyers, if there's
22 anything about his divorce case or the other litigation that
23 would affect his judgment of a case in which a lawyer was
24 charged.
25 And then at Question 82 he said he was not very
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1 knowledgeable about Islam and said that his source of
2 information about it was news. We'd ask your Honor to follow
3 up on that, what news, what information does he think he
4 received.
5 THE COURT: You know -- I'll follow up. I'd asked
6 numerous questions about the participants in the process of all
7 of his litigation and he's said there's nothing about that that
8 would affect him. And that he realizes that every case is
9 different.
10 I will -- he's also said on the questionnaire that
11 there's nothing about the fact that one of the defendants in
12 the case is a criminal defense attorney that would make it
13 difficult for him to be a fair and impartial juror.
14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, in my experience, limited
15 though it is, in divorce situations where there's a lot of
16 animosity, the attitudes of people towards the lawyers on the
17 other side and towards lawyers in general gets very, very hot.
18 And I can give your Honor the basis for that view if you like,
19 but that is my experience. Would your Honor want me to
20 continue?
21 THE COURT: No, no. Anything else?
22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, with respect to the charges
23 that he had brought against this other individual for
24 threatening him, if you could just inquire as to the result of
25 those charges. I don't believe we went into that.
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1 THE COURT: No he told us that. Said all of the --
2 that was part of the divorce.
3 MR. MORVILLO: I thought those were questions about
4 his situation.
5 THE COURT: He said the charges on both sides were
6 dropped. Is that what everyone else heard?
7 MR. TIGAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: He said each side filed charges against
9 the other to try to get the other side arrested. And
10 ultimately the charges on both sides were dropped.
11 MR. MORVILLO: I didn't pick up on the fact that the
12 other charges were dropped. I realized that the charges
13 against him were dropped, but --
14 THE COURT: Everyone else has realtime. I'm
15 listening. Does that comport with everyone's recollection
16 and --
17 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay. If these don't produce anything,
19 I'll ask Juror 199 to call in on the 18th. There are no
20 challenges?
21 MR. DEMBER: Yes.
22 MR. RUHNKE: Yes.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 (Juror present)
25 BY THE COURT:
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1 Q. Hi.
2 A. Hi.
3 Q. Just a few follow-up questions. You -- on the
4 questionnaire, you said that you're not very knowledgeable
5 about Islam. What you have gotten is from the news. Can you
6 tell me what it is that you've gotten from the news that
7 provided your knowledge of Islam?
8 A. Really not much. I just know that their religion is
9 different than what I was brought up on. And I'm not a very
10 religious person. And -- I know it's sandy over there.
11 Q. I'm sorry?
12 A. I know it's a desert over there mostly. I don't know much
13 about it. It's a different world from over here.
14 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
15 the Islamic faith?
16 A. Not really. Like I said, I'm not very religious, so
17 whether it's one religion or another doesn't really mean much
18 to me. I don't really follow anything. You know, I was raised
19 Protestant, but I can't really say I believe in God or anything
20 like that.
21 Q. All right. If you were -- let me ask you another question:
22 Divorces are sometimes -- and from what you've described yours
23 as -- hotly contested. Do you have any biases or prejudices
24 against any of the participants in that process or types of
25 participants, for example, lawyers? Do you have any feelings
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1 as a result of that process that would prevent you from being a
2 fair and impartial juror in this case, listening to the
3 evidence or lack of evidence in this case, and being fair and
4 impartial?
5 A. Not lawyer-wise. I mean, I can't say I was happy with how
6 the family court system works, but, you know, as far as the
7 lawyers on each side, you know, they're just doing their job,
8 basically. But I wasn't happy with the process of the court
9 system, no.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Or the family court.
12 Q. This is not the family court. Is there anything about that
13 experience that would prevent you from being a fair and
14 impartial juror in this court, in this case?
15 A. No. Like I said, I'm a pretty fair guy. I'm a supervisor
16 at work, and I've got problems all the time with guys and I
17 certainly treat them fair.
18 Q. Juror 199, I'm going to ask you to return on -- call in on
19 June 18th. You're still involved in the jury selection
20 process. And it's very important that when you -- it's very
21 important for you to continue to follow my instructions.
22 Please, don't talk about the case or anything to do with it.
23 Remember to keep an -- remember not to look at, listen to or
24 read anything to do with the case. If you should see
25 something, just turn away.
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1 Remember, as I'll tell all the jurors in the case,
2 keep an open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've
3 instructed you on the law and you've gone to the jury room to
4 begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties
5 requires that you do that. All right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Thank you.
9 (Juror absent)
10 THE COURT: All right. Juror 203. By the way, I
11 almost always say that, no further questions and no challenges
12 for cause. But should I not say that, I mean, this process is
13 one in which I've given all of you to the opportunity to make
14 any challenges for cause, and if I don't hear one of you say
15 one, it's no challenges for cause. So feel free to speak up.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Good afternoon, juror 203.
19 A. Hello.
20 Q. Good to see you. Before I go over the questionnaire, I had
21 some preliminary questions. Since you were here last, has
22 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
23 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
24 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. It now appears that the date the final jury will be chosen
2 in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So you won't have to
3 call back until June the 18th. Does that present any serious
4 hardship for you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
7 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
8 the case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
11 any conversations here at the courthouse, or with any other
12 prospective jurors?
13 A. No.
14 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
15 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you were a defendant in a case
18 involving a car accident; is that right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Someone sued you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what happened to that case?
23 A. It went to trial. Right when the jury was coming back with
24 the verdict, it was settled. But the judge showed me the
25 verdict sheet and it was in my favor. So I was happy with
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1 that.
2 Q. Is there anything about your experience with that process
3 or with anyone, any of the participants in that process, that
4 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
5 case?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You mention that you have a coworker from Jordan. Is there
8 anything about that that would prevent you from being a fair
9 and impartial juror in this case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against people from --
12 of Middle Eastern descent or anyone of the Islamic faith?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You said that you were not very knowledgeable about Islam
15 and what you did understand you got from school and television.
16 Can you tell me what you meant by that?
17 A. Well, I've taken religion classes, in college. And they've
18 touched upon it. That's pretty much about it.
19 Q. Do you recall any specific books or programs that you've
20 either read or saw on Islam?
21 A. No particular books or programs. Just what I've heard in
22 the news.
23 Q. Anything specific that you can recall you viewed about
24 Islam?
25 A. Nothing specific.
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1 Q. Is there anything that you saw, heard, read, that would
2 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You mentioned that you had heard of Sheikh Abdel Rahman.
5 Can you tell me what you had seen or heard about Sheikh Abdel
6 Rahman?
7 A. I believe he was involved in the World Trade Center
8 bombing, the first World Trade Center bombing. But he's in
9 prison now.
10 Q. Okay. Anything else?
11 A. That's it.
12 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, what you would
13 have to do is to listen to the evidence or lack of evidence,
14 put aside anything you'd seen, heard or read about anything
15 that might come up in the case, and simply ask yourself whether
16 on the evidence or lack of evidence presented here in court,
17 the government has proven the charges in the indictment beyond
18 a reasonable doubt. Can you do that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is there anything that you've seen, heard or read that
21 would prevent you from doing that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, and I know this
24 is repetitious, but it's very important, you would be required
25 to decide this case based solely on the evidence or lack of
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1 evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the law.
2 Will you do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And as you can tell from all of my questions, the
5 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
6 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
7 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
8 final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
9 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
10 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
13 (Juror absent)
14 THE COURT: All right. No questions? No challenges?
15 Let's call in Juror 203.
16 (Juror present)
17 BY THE COURT:
18 Q. Please, have a seat. Juror 203, you're still involved in
19 the jury selection process. You'll be asked to call back on
20 June the 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you a note about who and
21 where to call. Please remember my continuing instructions.
22 Please, don't talk about this case or anything to do with it.
23 Remember not to look at, listen to or read anything to do with
24 the case. If you see something inadvertently, just turn away.
25 Remember, as I'll tell all of the jurors, keep an open mind
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1 until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on
2 the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
3 deliberations. Fairness and justice require you to do that.
4 All right. Have a good day.
5 A. Thanks.
6 (Juror absent)
7 DEPUTY CLERK: Juror 208.
8 (Continued on next page)
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1 (Juror present)
2 BY THE COURT:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 208.
4 Juror 208, let me start by asking you about some of
5 the answers on the questionnaire. You had said that being a
6 juror on the case would be a serious hardship for you. Can you
7 explain to me why that is?
8 A. Yes, I am self supportive. My job only pays for two weeks
9 of jury service and I have a mortgage and if I was forced to
10 serve for a lengthy trial, 4 to 6 months, I would have to sell
11 my house. You have to go on unpaid jury leave. I would have
12 to pay COBRA benefits. I would not be able to support myself.
13 Q. Did you say that you were self-employed?
14 A. I am self supportive.
15 Q. You are self supportive?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And your employer would not pay more than two weeks?
18 A. That is correct. I have a note from them.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Can you step out for a moment?
21 (Juror absent)
22 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
23 MR. MORVILLO: The government agrees, your Honor.
24 MR. RUHNKE: We agree also, your Honor.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Juror 208, I will excuse you. You can go home. All the
3 paperwork will be taken care of by mail and I appreciate your
4 having participated in the process.
5 A. Thank you very much.
6 (juror absent)
7 THE CLERK: 209.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 209. Good to see you.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Let me ask you a few preliminary questions. Since you were
13 here last has anything changed concerning your ability to serve
14 as a juror in this case or has anything occurred to you that
15 may affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in
16 this case?
17 A. No, Judge.
18 Q. And it now appears that the final jury will be selected in
19 the case on Monday, June 21st. So after today it's unlikely
20 you will be called to come back before -- you won't have to
21 call in until June 18th. Does that present any serious
22 hardship for you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
25 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
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1 the case?
2 A. No, your Honor.
3 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
4 anyone here at the courthouse or any other prospective jurors?
5 A. No, your Honor.
6 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
7 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
8 A. No, your Honor.
9 Q. You mentioned that you had a child who was disabled.
10 A. My son.
11 Q. Okay.
12 And I really don't mean to pry but could you just
13 explain to me what his disability is?
14 A. He is mentally disabled.
15 Q. I am sorry?
16 A. Mentally disabled.
17 Q. I didn't --
18 A. Mentally disabled.
19 Q. Oh, okay, thank you. I didn't hear you.
20 You mentioned that you have a nephew who is a marine
21 or was a marine for 25 years. Is he still in the marines?
22 A. He is still in the marines but I just found out two weeks
23 ago he came back from Iraq wounded.
24 Q. He just got back two weeks ago?
25 A. From Iraq. He is wounded and nobody wants to tell me what
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1 happened until two weeks ago. He came in with a bone inside.
2 He lives in San Diego.
3 Q. He was injured in Iraq?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he is now in San Diego?
6 A. He is in San Diego, yes. He is going to be discharged this
7 month.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You mentioned that one of your family members was a
10 veteran of Korea also?
11 A. That was my husband.
12 Q. Okay.
13 And can you tell me what kind of work your husband
14 does?
15 A. Oh, my husband is a cleaner. He cleans offices.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Thank you. Is there anything about your nephew's
18 service in the marines in Iraq and your husband's service in
19 Korea that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
20 juror in this case?
21 A. No, your Honor.
22 Q. There was a question that you had left blank -- it's a long
23 questionnaire -- which asked do you have any strong views
24 against the religion of Islam or its adherence?
25 A. No, your Honor.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Do you have any biases or prejudices against any
3 people of Middle Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic
4 faith?
5 A. No, your Honor.
6 Q. The jurors who sit in the case will be instructed that they
7 must base their decision entirely on the evidence produced in
8 court and not from any outside source or any pre-existing
9 opinion or attitudes. Can you do that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 I thought that that was true from your answers but you
13 had said no on the questionnaire. It came in a series of other
14 questions and I thought it might have been a mistake.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. There was one question that you left blank, or another
17 question, which said do you know any of the other prospective
18 jurors called to serve in this case?
19 A. No, your Honor.
20 Q. Okay.
21 If you were chosen as a juror in this case you would
22 be required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
23 lack of evidence and my instructions on the law. Will you do
24 that?
25 A. Yes, your Honor.
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1 Q. As you can tell from all of these questions, the
2 fundamental issue is whether there is anything in your personal
3 history or life experience that would prevent you from being a
4 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
5 final time whether there is anything, whether I have asked you
6 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
7 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No, your Honor.
9 Q. Okay.
10 Can you step out please.
11 (Juror absent)
12 THE COURT: No questions? No challenges?
13 MR. TIGAR: I am sorry, your Honor, did your Honor ask
14 her about question number 96?
15 THE COURT: Yes. You can go back. It's in my notes
16 and it's in my markings and I thought -- you can go back in the
17 transcript. It was one of the questions that I said I thought
18 that that was a mistake.
19 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. Yes, I now
20 remember it. Excuse me.
21 THE COURT: I said she answered no and I thought it
22 was a mistake. Right?
23 MR. MORVILLO: That is correct, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay. No questions, no challenges.
25 (Juror present)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Juror 209, you are still involved in the process. You will
3 be asked to call back on June 18th. Mr. Fletcher will give you
4 a note indicating who and what number to call, and then the
5 process will continue, likely continue on June 21st, but you
6 will be asked to call in on June 18th. It's very important
7 that you continue to follow my instructions, all right?
8 A. Okay, your Honor.
9 Q. Please don't talk about this case or anything to do with
10 it. Remember not to look at or listen to anything to do with
11 the case. If you should see something just turn away.
12 Remember, as I will tell the jurors, keep an open mind until
13 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on
14 the law, and you have gone to the jury room to begin your
15 deliberations. Fairness and justice requires that you do that.
16 All right?
17 A. Yes, your Honor.
18 Q. Okay. Have a good day.
19 A. Thank you, your Honor.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE COURT: That completes the morning and please be
22 back at 2:30 this afternoon.
23 (Luncheon recess)
24 (Continued on next page)
25
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1 (2:50 p.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. Please be seated.
3 In note indicates that 213 is coming around 4:30, so we'll
4 start with 217.
5 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, Question 104 contains a name
6 in Juror 217's questionnaire.
7 (Juror present)
8 BY THE COURT:
9 Q. Hi.
10 A. Hi.
11 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 217. Since you were here last, has
12 anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in
13 this case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
14 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. No, it has not.
16 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
17 chosen in the case will be June 21st. So you would not have to
18 call in again until June the 18th. Does that present any
19 serious hardship for you?
20 A. No, it does not.
21 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
22 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
23 the case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. And that includes any conversations here at the courthouse
3 or with any other prospective jurors?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And while you were waiting with the other prospective
6 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you had a brother who was in the
9 Navy.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is he currently in the Navy?
12 A. No, he's not.
13 Q. How long since he's been in the Navy?
14 A. Probably about 15, 20 years.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. He was right out of high school.
17 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being a
18 fair and impartial juror in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mentioned that you were on a civil jury, and that would
21 have been state court; is that right?
22 A. I believe -- I'm not sure which court it was. It was here
23 in New York, but I'm not sure exactly.
24 Q. Okay. And could you just describe what the case was about?
25 A. It was an SRO on 23rd Street. The landlord was trying to
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1 evict the tenants in order to convert the units into condos.
2 Q. All right. And was it the landlord who was suing or the
3 tenants?
4 A. No, the tenant, I'm sorry, the tenant was suing. They were
5 being unfairly treated, and they wanted to stay in the building
6 because they were rent-stabilized apartments.
7 Q. All right. And you -- don't tell us what the verdict was,
8 but the jury deliberated and reached a verdict?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is there anything about that jury experience or with
11 any of the process or with any of the participants in that
12 process that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
13 in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You have a friend who is an attorney who does corporate
16 litigation; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does that lawyer practice with a -- don't tell us the
19 firm, but is it a big firm, a small firm, a medium-sized -- do
20 you know?
21 A. She works for herself.
22 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
23 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You've told us that you have a neighbor who visited Iraq
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1 about three months ago to visit family.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And anything about that that would prevent you from being a
4 fair and impartial juror in this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You have a coworker who comes from Iran; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know how long the coworker has been here from Iran?
9 A. She's been here since she was a teenager.
10 Q. Long time?
11 A. Yeah, probably about 30 years.
12 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
13 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
16 mid Eastern descent or any people of the Islamic faith?
17 A. No, I do not.
18 Q. You mention that you saw a coworker of yours as another
19 prospective juror.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And let me ask you just a couple of questions: If you were
22 chosen as a juror in this case, you would be required to listen
23 to the evidence and you would be required to decide whether the
24 charges in the case had been proven -- whether the government
25 had proven those charges beyond a reasonable doubt at trial.
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1 Can you do that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And after the jury hears the evidence and hears the judge's
4 instructions on the law, the jurors go to deliberate. And it's
5 important in the process of jury deliberations that jurors
6 listen to each other, talk about their views, exchange views --
7 that's the very essence of jury deliberations. But no juror
8 should ever give up a view which that juror conscientiously
9 holds. Do you understand that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And would the fact that you -- and I have no way of
12 knowing, because among other reasons, the jury is anonymous, to
13 me --
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. -- as it is to all of the parties. I have no way of
16 knowing whether this other person might be on the jury or be in
17 the jury pool that comes back on June the 21st. But, if that
18 person were ever on the jury, is there anything about that that
19 would prevent you from being able to listen to the evidence,
20 express your own views and reach a decision based upon the
21 evidence or lack of evidence, discuss these issues with your --
22 with all of the other jurors, and make sure that the judgment
23 that you reach, the verdict that you reach, is your
24 conscientious judgment?
25 A. I would be able to do that, yes.
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1 Q. And that would be true even if that other person were one
2 of the other jurors?
3 A. Absolutely, yes.
4 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
5 would be required to decide this case based solely on the
6 evidence or lack of evidence and in accordance with my
7 instructions on the law. Will you do that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
10 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
11 life experience, whether I've asked you about it specifically
12 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
13 juror in this case. So let me ask you one final time whether
14 there's anything, whether I've asked you about it specifically
15 or not, that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
16 juror in this case?
17 A. No, there is not.
18 Q. Okay. Could you step out, please, for a moment?
19 A. Yes.
20 (Juror absent)
21 MR. TIGAR: It would be of interest to the parties in
22 exercising peremptory challenges to know if any juror knows
23 another juror. The situation we find ourselves in, therefore,
24 is how to get there, given the anonymity. Could we ask the
25 juror to alert the Court if that event happens, that both of
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1 them show up on the 21st?
2 THE COURT: I could ask the jury administrator to do
3 that, I would think. And just say, you know, look at the -- it
4 may be already academic. But I could certainly ask the jury
5 administrator to look at the final group that come, whether
6 it's 90 or 80 or somewhat less than that, and ask whether this
7 other person is in that group.
8 MR. TIGAR: We would appreciate whatever inquiries can
9 be made along that line so that at least we have the
10 opportunity to evaluate it.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Anything from the government?
12 MR. DEMBER: Not at the moment, your Honor, no.
13 THE COURT: Do you want me to -- I'll certainly raise
14 this issue with Mr. Grate or with the assistant jury
15 administrator. Do you want me to make any preliminary
16 inquiries to see whether this is even a live issue at the
17 moment?
18 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I think -- I took from
19 your statement that it may be academic that your Honor would do
20 that. It may be.
21 THE COURT: I wasn't intending to do anything. I was
22 intending only to tell Mr. Grate: Here's the issue. When we
23 get down to 70 or 80 or 90, tell us if that other person is in
24 the pool. That's all I was intending to do. Whether I should
25 make a preliminary inquiry, which is, Mr. Grate, follow this,
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1 and if at some point that juror ceases to be an issue, let us
2 know. That certainly wouldn't compromise the anonymity of any
3 remaining jurors from whom you are selecting. So if the
4 parties want me to do that, I'll do that also.
5 MR. TIGAR: We would appreciate if your Honor did.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Dember --
7 MR. TIGAR: An additional point, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Hold on a moment. You seem --
9 MR. DEMBER: We're just trying to think through the
10 process, your Honor. Obviously the juror, this other potential
11 juror, works at the same firm. And the description in the
12 questionnaire of where this juror works, if it matches to some
13 degree a similar type of description, we will have a sense from
14 the people who are in the final group ourselves to see whether
15 that person still is in the pool.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. DEMBER: If Mr. Grate makes the -- goes back and
18 checks the juror number for the person she's identified in the
19 questionnaire and comes back to us and says, No, that person's
20 gone, obviously there's no issue about anonymity. If he says
21 that person is still in the pool, then, well, are we going to
22 leave it as it's constituted right now, meaning the people who
23 have qualified to date plus others who we still have spoken to?
24 THE COURT: Yes. It's not a basis for disqualifying.
25 MR. DEMBER: My only concern is that if we see a juror
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1 in the future, tomorrow or sometime next week, and that person
2 has described where he works and it's close to this person,
3 there's a very good chance we'll be able to figure out that
4 that person's name is the person identified in this particular
5 question.
6 THE COURT: I'll tell you what, you all are -- for all
7 I know, all of your studies on these questionnaires may give
8 you more insight. Why don't you just talk about it and get
9 back to me tomorrow. I'm perfectly happy to try and give the
10 parties whatever comfort without compromising the juror's
11 anonymity, and Mr. Dember, the issue that you are raising is an
12 issue that's out there now. I mean, all of you have been
13 studying these questionnaires very carefully.
14 MR. DEMBER: Sure.
15 THE COURT: And what you're raising is whether I
16 should take some action to disqualify another juror. I don't
17 think so. And I don't -- I don't think so, and I haven't heard
18 anyone ask me to do that. And I don't see -- and you can think
19 about it overnight. I don't see why giving the parties the
20 comfort of saying, Either it's not an issue or it remains an
21 issue, is an issue. But you think about it, and talk to each
22 other on these issues of anonymity you've come up with, you've
23 been able to reach agreement, and I'm trying to help you on
24 this.
25 MR. DEMBER: And that's my only suggestion, your
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1 Honor, is that we talk about this and have some time to think
2 more about it before we do anything.
3 THE COURT: It's clear this is not a problem for this
4 juror.
5 MR. TIGAR: It would be helpful, your Honor, perhaps
6 to tell her that if she sees this associate, that there's a
7 special caution not to talk about it or what the status of the
8 matters are.
9 THE COURT: I'll certainly do that. I'll certainly do
10 that. Okay.
11 (Juror present)
12 BY THE COURT:
13 Q. Hi, Juror 217. You are still in the jury selection
14 process, so what that means is that you'll be asked to call
15 back on June the 18th, and Mr. Fletcher has a slip of paper for
16 you to enable you to call. And it's very important that you
17 continue to follow my instructions. So, please, don't talk
18 about this case at all or anything to do with it. I realize
19 that you noted that there was another juror who was
20 prospectively in the panel, and I explored that with you. It's
21 very important that you understand that that person also is
22 included in my instructions not to talk about the case. So you
23 shouldn't talk to that person about this case at all, or
24 acknowledge anything about the ongoing jury selection process.
25 Do you understand that?
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1 A. Okay, yes.
2 Q. And it's also very important: Don't look at, listen to or
3 read anything to do with the case. If you should see or hear
4 something inadvertently, just turn away.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And remember, as I'll tell the jurors who are finally
7 selected, keep an open mind until you've heard all of the
8 evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've gone to
9 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and
10 justice to the parties requires that you do that. All right?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Good to see you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 (Juror absent)
15 DEPUTY CLERK: 218.
16 U.S. MARSHAL: Juror Number 218.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 218. It's good to see you.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let me ask you some preliminary questions before I turn to
22 the questionnaire. Since you were here last, has anything
23 changed concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this
24 case or has anything occurred to you that may affect your
25 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
3 chosen in the case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today,
4 you won't have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
5 present any serious hardship for you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
8 the case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
9 the case?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
12 any conversations at the courthouse or with any prospective
13 juror?
14 A. No.
15 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
16 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mention that you work for a state agency and that you
19 inspect food processing facilities. Are you involved -- is
20 that -- does that involve you in law enforcement functions?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You mention that you are -- that you have a family
23 membership in the Catholic Ko'Ping Society. Could you just
24 tell me what the Ko'Ping Society is?
25 A. It's basically an organization that's semi-religious as
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1 well as benefiting the community.
2 Q. You mention that you had served as a juror on two cases,
3 and one was in the town court and one was in the United States
4 District Court. What kind of case was it that you served in
5 the town court?
6 A. It was a civil case, but it actually never made it to
7 trial. It was dismissed before we were asked to serve.
8 Q. Okay. What kind of case was that?
9 A. A civil trial -- I can't remember, really.
10 Q. Okay. And in federal court, what kind of case was that?
11 A. Same thing. A civil trial regarding a -- some kind of
12 wrongful termination by a city agency, I think.
13 Q. And did that case go to a verdict? Don't tell us what it
14 was.
15 A. I'm sorry?
16 Q. Was that case tried to a verdict? Don't tell us what the
17 verdict was, but --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, is there anything about that experience and -- both of
20 those experiences, and with the process and any of the
21 participants in the process, that would prevent you from being
22 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You mentioned that you occasionally have to testify at
25 hearings on your job.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you testify in court or do you testify in an
3 administrative agency or --
4 A. With a hearing officer, so I think it's an administrative
5 agency.
6 Q. All right. Are you cross-examined during those hearings?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards lawyers that
9 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
10 case?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You mention that your sister was a paralegal. Can you tell
13 me what kind of an organization or lawyer that your sister
14 performs that work, without telling us the name of the firm?
15 A. She's not a paralegal anymore. But it was a real estate
16 law firm.
17 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
18 being fair and impartial in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You mention that you have a cousin who was in the Peace
21 Corps in Morocco?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Anything about that that would prevent you from being fair
24 and impartial?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You weren't sure whether, I take it, anyone you know ever
2 visited any Middle Eastern countries?
3 A. Um --
4 Q. You said you weren't sure.
5 A. Oh, I did? Okay.
6 Q. First of all, have you ever visited a Middle Eastern
7 country?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know of anyone who has?
10 A. I don't think so.
11 Q. But --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You mention that you have an aunt who's Syrian?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you also said that you don't socialize with any people
16 of Middle Eastern descent. Do you have any close contact with
17 your aunt?
18 A. Once, you know -- it's not a frequent thing. Maybe several
19 times a year we get together.
20 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would prevent you from
21 being fair and impartial in this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices towards any people of
24 Middle Eastern descent or of the Islamic faith?
25 A. No. Generally, no.
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1 Q. You say, Generally, no, and what do you have in mind in
2 terms of --
3 A. Just, you know, paying attention to the news and what's
4 going on. It's just very out there, you know. It's right in
5 our face.
6 Q. I'm sorry?
7 A. It's -- the amount of the press that -- the amount of
8 coverage the press is giving Middle Eastern people just gets my
9 mind thinking, not necessarily in a bad way about them, but
10 thinking a lot about them.
11 Q. Okay. You mention that you're not very knowledgeable about
12 Islam, and you said you had some knowledge. Could you just
13 explain to me what the knowledge is that you were describing?
14 A. Well, I'm just aware of certain practices that certain --
15 when it comes to meat slaughtering, that's part of my job --
16 not that I'm supposed to know. I've picked up on certain ways
17 that they're to conduct their slaughter, based on religion.
18 And that's pretty much it.
19 Q. Okay. You had referred specifically to some food practices
20 around the holidays. Is that what --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That's what you're referring to?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you -- when you were asked about negative experiences
25 with any person with Middle Eastern descent, you referred to
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1 enduring the events of 9/11 caused by Middle Easterners. Let
2 me explain that this case that's on trial or soon to be on
3 trial does not involve 9/11. And none of the defendants are
4 charged with having done anything in connection with 9/11. So
5 this case is simply not about 9/11.
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Is there anything about the events of 9/11 that would
8 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. I would do my best to not let it. But -- I'm very close to
10 saying -- could you just say the question again?
11 Q. I'm sorry, can you --
12 A. The answer to your question is a yes or no answer,
13 basically? Is that right?
14 Q. Well, it's really intended to find out whether, based
15 upon -- and we'll get to the fact that you lost friends on
16 9/11 -- but it's meant to get at whether there's anything about
17 9/11 or your having lost friends in 9/11 or anything about that
18 that would prevent you from being fair and impartial in this
19 case, and you don't have to answer that yes or no. All you
20 have to do is to explain to me in your own words whether it
21 would interfere with your ability to be fair and impartial in
22 this case. Because there is no right or wrong answer. There's
23 only understanding from you as to whether, in your own mind,
24 you believe that you would be completely fair and impartial in
25 the case.
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1 A. Okay. I would do my best to be completely fair and
2 impartial.
3 Q. You say you would do your best.
4 A. Yes. Realizing that it has nothing to do with the events
5 of September 11th, I would obviously do my best not to let that
6 affect, you know, my....
7 Q. Do you have questions in your own mind whether you could
8 separate out the events of 9/11 from this case, as I've
9 described this case to you?
10 A. Sometimes I do have questions in my mind. Sometimes, yeah.
11 I have good days and bad days, you know.
12 Q. It's -- okay. Why, by the way, do you say you have good
13 days and bad days?
14 A. It's just part of how I am, I think. You know, being
15 affected by what I hear in the news and, you know, what people
16 I know are going through. It's -- it can be emotional
17 sometimes.
18 Q. Is it true that on -- when you say bad days, the bad days
19 are days when you don't think you could be fair?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 (Continued on next page)
22
23
24
25
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1 Q. Okay.
2 Could you step out for a moment?
3 (Juror absent)
4 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
5 MR. MORVILLO: The government consents, your Honor.
6 MR. RUHNKE: We consent.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 (Juror present)
9 BY THE COURT:
10 Q. Hi.
11 Juror 218, I am going to excuse you and I want to
12 emphasize to you that I very much appreciate your taking the
13 time to respond to all of the questions on the questionnaire
14 and discussing the answers with me, and I want to assure you
15 that what you have done is to perform a public service because
16 this process of jury selection is a very important part of the
17 administration of justice and without the participation of
18 citizens such as yourself, the process simply can't exist. So,
19 again, I appreciate your participation and you should take away
20 the satisfaction of knowing that you have performed a public
21 service.
22 As I say, I will excuse you and all the paperwork will
23 be taken care of by mail and you can go home.
24 A. Thank you.
25 (Juror absent)
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1 THE CLERK: 219.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Please have a seat.
5 Good afternoon, Juror 219.
6 In responding to the questionnaire you had indicated
7 that you had a serious hardship if you were called as a juror
8 in this case. Can you explain to me what the serious hardship
9 would be?
10 A. My daughter had a heart attack last year and just yesterday
11 she had to go for a biopsy. They found something on her breast
12 and she has 4 young children than she lives in Massachusetts,
13 so I usually go over and help her when I can. And I also have
14 ten grandchildren. My other daughter who lives upstate, she
15 just had a baby. The baby is about 2 months old, and she has 2
16 very young children and I help out there too.
17 Q. The children in Massachusetts, do you travel up to
18 Massachusetts to help out?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How often do you do that?
21 A. Well, when she calls me I usually go but now yesterday I
22 didn't know about this biopsy. She wasn't going to tell me
23 because I get all upset. So she just went in yesterday, so I
24 don't know if she will be needing me because her children range
25 in age from 11, 8, 6 and 4.
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1 Q. Can you give me some idea about how much of your time you
2 spend on caring for your grandchildren?
3 A. Well, it depends. You know, if they have things to do and
4 they have no one, they call us. My husband is also retired, so
5 we usually go and spend a week, two weeks, whatever they need.
6 Q. If you were sitting as a juror in this case the trial
7 wouldn't begin until June 21st. You wouldn't have to come back
8 until June 21st. It would then last for about 4 to 6 months
9 after that. Would that be a serious hardship for you?
10 A. Yes, it would.
11 Q. Is there any other aspect of the serious hardship besides
12 the child care for you?
13 A. Basically that is it, but I also indicated that I would not
14 be a fair and impartial juror on that questionnaire.
15 Q. Yes. I haven't begun to ask you questions about that quite
16 yet.
17 Could you step out just a moment?
18 A. Step out?
19 Q. Yes, please.
20 (Juror absent)
21 MR. TIGAR: The defense moves to strike, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Look, I could talk to the juror for some
23 additional period of time but it is only a matter of time and
24 it seems to me clear that this juror will be stricken for
25 cause, either on the basis of her child care or the answers
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1 that she was about to give me with respect to her concluding
2 answers on the questionnaire.
3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government has no
4 interest in wasting anyone's time. We will consent.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 (Juror present)
7 BY THE COURT:
8 Q. Juror 219, I will excuse you. You can go home. All of the
9 paperwork will be taken care of by mail and I appreciate your
10 having participated in the process.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. And I am sure I speak for everyone in saying that we hope
13 that everything turns out all right for your daughter.
14 A. Thank you very much.
15 (Juror absent)
16 THE CLERK: 220.
17 (Juror present)
18 BY THE COURT:
19 Q. Please have a seat.
20 It's easier to sit just in the first chair. And there
21 is a microphone there.
22 Good afternoon, Juror 220.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Good to see you.
25 Since he were here last has anything changed
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1 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
2 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
3 fair and impartial juror in this case?
4 A. Yes, I think I explained that in the questionnaire.
5 Q. Yes. Keep your voice up and talk into the microphone.
6 A. I think I explained that in the questionnaire, yes. I
7 still feel the same way.
8 Q. I am sorry?
9 A. I still feel the same way.
10 Q. Well, actually what I asked is whether anything has
11 happened, whether anything has changed or anything occurred to
12 you that may affect your ability to be fair and impartial and
13 what you say is what you already wrote in the questionnaire, is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Since you have raised it, tell me why you have a doubt
17 about your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this
18 case?
19 A. Well, part of my background, I am Jewish, and just my
20 general feelings.
21 Q. What do you mean by your general feelings?
22 A. My feelings about terrorism.
23 Q. Our system of justice depends on the willingness and the
24 ability of a cross section of our community who is prepared to
25 serve as jurors in a case. And the jurors bring with them all
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1 of their prior experiences, and then the question is whether
2 whatever their prior experiences are, whatever they have seen,
3 heard or read, can they put that aside and decide the case
4 based solely on the evidence or lack of evidence and my
5 instructions on the law.
6 A. I am not sure.
7 Q. Can you tell me why you are not sure?
8 A. I am just not sure I could be impartial. I don't know.
9 It's possible. I don't have that much information about the
10 case so to be honest.
11 Q. You know the allegations in the case as I have explained
12 them.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You know that the case may involve allegations of
15 terrorism, but the case does not involve 9/11 or any charges
16 against the defendants involving 9/11. This is not a case
17 about 9/11.
18 The question is as you look into yourself could you be
19 fair and impartial?
20 A. I would try to be but -- that is all I can say.
21 Q. Do you have questions about whether you could be fair and
22 impartial?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. As you think about yourself and the allegations in the
25 case, could you assure everyone that you would be fair and
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1 impartial or not?
2 A. I don't think I could.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Could you step out for a moment?
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: I am prepared to strike the juror.
7 MR. MORVILLO: The government consents.
8 MR. TIGAR: The defense agrees, your Honor.
9 (Juror present)
10 BY THE COURT:
11 Q. Hi.
12 A. Hi.
13 Q. Juror 220, I am going to excuse you and I very much
14 appreciate your participating in the process, filling out the
15 questionnaire, responding to my questions and you should
16 appreciate that you have performed a public service by
17 participating in the process and that should give you
18 satisfaction. Again, I appreciate your participating in the
19 process. You can go home now and all the paperwork will be
20 taken care of by mail.
21 A. Okay, thank you.
22 (Juror absent)
23 THE CLERK: 222.
24 (Juror present)
25 BY THE COURT:
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1 Q. Hi.
2 Good afternoon, Juror 222.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Good to see you.
5 Since you were here last has anything changed
6 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
7 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a
8 fair and impartial juror in this case?
9 A. Well, there are two things I guess I should mention. One,
10 that when I heard the duration of the case my wife has lupus
11 and she relies heavily on me. She has flare-ups at times so I
12 need to be around.
13 Q. I am sorry --
14 A. Has lupus, and she has flare-ups at times where she needs
15 me around to help her and I periodically have to take her into
16 the city to the doctors.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Do you know how often you have to do that?
19 A. Well, we are taking her this Friday. It could be once,
20 twice a month, and if she has a flare-up, I need to be home
21 with her to help her out.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And that could be like a week at a time.
24 Q. Because we only sit 4 days a week, so in terms of doctors'
25 appointments, people could make them on Fridays to come into
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1 see a doctor. What is the history of flare-ups as to how often
2 you might have to take a week off?
3 A. I have had in the last 2 years had to have done it about 3,
4 4 times already. And she has been admitted into the hospital
5 once during that duration.
6 Q. Do you take time off from work for that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You had mentioned that this case would be a serious
9 hardship for you?
10 A. That was my hardship.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Is there anyone else who could take care of your wife?
13 A. We don't live near family so, no.
14 Q. Would serving from 4 to 6 months be a serious hardship?
15 A. I would say yes because this is normally around the time of
16 the season when she has those flare-ups. She was admitted in
17 the hospital, it was September-October once, and she has
18 flare-ups again around August and September again. So it's
19 around this time frame that she has them.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Could you step out for a moment.
22 (Juror absent)
23 MR. RUHNKE: We certainly would concede to his excusal
24 from the defense.
25 MR. MORVILLO: No objection.
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1 THE COURT: Okay. I will excuse Juror 222.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Juror 222, I will excuse you from jury service. You can go
5 home now and all of the paperwork will be taken care of through
6 the mail. I appreciate your participating.
7 A. I am sorry I couldn't help. I was on the case 3 years ago.
8 Q. Not a problem.
9 A. I am sorry. Thank you.
10 (Juror absent)
11 THE CLERK: If 227 is there bring him in, if not, 230.
12 (Juror present)
13 BY THE COURT:
14 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 230.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Good to see you.
17 Let me ask you some preliminary questions.
18 Since you were here last has anything occurred to you
19 concerning your ability to serve as a juror in this case or has
20 anything occurred to you that may affect your ability to serve
21 as a fair and impartial juror in this case?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. What happened?
24 A. Nothing has happened since then.
25 Q. Oh, nothing, okay.
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1 It now appears that the date that the final jury will
2 be chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after
3 today you won't have to call back before June 18th. Does that
4 present any serious hardship for you?
5 A. No, it does not.
6 Q. Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone about
7 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
8 the case?
9 A. Nothing at all.
10 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
11 any conversations here at the courthouse or with any other
12 prospective jurors?
13 A. I have not.
14 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
15 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
16 A. No, I have not.
17 Q. Okay.
18 On the questionnaire you indicated that you were
19 employed full-time by a law firm as a pension consultant.
20 Don't tell me the name of the law firm, but can you just tell
21 me what kind of law that law firm practices?
22 A. It's general practice law.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Does the law firm do any criminal work as far as you
25 know?
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1 A. No, we do not.
2 Q. And you mentioned that you were in the reserves in
3 Guatemala. How long ago was that?
4 A. Almost 35 years ago.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Is there anything about that that would prevent you
7 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
8 A. No. Nothing.
9 Q. You mentioned that you were a juror in one criminal case in
10 the local court up in Portchester, is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. And it was a charge of assault, resisting arrest, and how
13 long did that trial last?
14 A. It lasted 2 days.
15 Q. Okay. Don't tell us what the result was but the jury
16 reached a verdict and you were the foreperson, right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Is there anything about that experience with the process,
19 with the experience of being a participant in a criminal trial
20 or your experience with any of the parties or participants in
21 that case that would prevent you from being a fair and
22 impartial juror in this case?
23 A. I don't believe so, no.
24 Q. You mentioned that you have been in court before for a
25 misdemeanor arrest and a civil lawsuit.
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1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Can you tell me what the misdemeanor arrest was about?
4 A. It was for growing a marijuana plant in my house at full
5 view in front of my house.
6 Q. I am sorry, could you keep your voice up and talk into the
7 microphone? What was that about?
8 A. Growing a marijuana plant in my house, in my front lawn.
9 Q. And that was in state court?
10 A. It was in my town court. I don't believe it was state, no.
11 Q. And did you go through trial in that case?
12 A. I was planning to but I was advised by my lawyer to take a
13 plea.
14 Q. And did you receive a sentence in that case?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And what was that?
17 A. It was 2 years probation and a $90 fine.
18 Q. And what?
19 A. A $90 fine.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And you also mentioned that you had a civil lawsuit.
22 Can you tell me what the nature of that civil lawsuit was?
23 A. I was sued by a cable operator company for having purchased
24 a cable box.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 And how was that case resolved?
2 A. I was planning to go to court and it was settled out of
3 court by a nominal fee that I had to pay. We got into an
4 agreement.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Now --
7 A. I believe it's called settle out of court. I don't
8 remember the specifics.
9 Q. How long ago was that?
10 A. It was 3 years ago.
11 Q. And how long ago was the marijuana incident?
12 A. 1995 I believe.
13 Q. Okay.
14 You mentioned that someone in your family was the
15 victim of a serious crime?
16 A. Yes, outside of this country many years ago.
17 Q. Was that the incident in Guatemala that you wrote about?
18 A. That is correct, in Guatemala City.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Now, you mentioned that you sued someone, is that
21 right?
22 A. I believe it was with regard to a car accident. My wife
23 was involved in a car accident and even though she was not at
24 fault the other party sued her and our lawyer advised us to
25 counter sue.
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1 Q. Okay.
2 So the other party sued your wife and then --
3 A. Even though they caused the accident, that is correct.
4 Q. And then you counter sued?
5 A. We sued them, my insurance company and myself.
6 Q. Okay.
7 Were you a defendant in the suit where your wife was
8 sued?
9 A. I was because I was the insured.
10 Q. And what happened with that lawsuit?
11 A. It dragged for about 5 years and eventually both parties
12 got -- and the occupants of the car during the accident
13 received some small settlement.
14 Q. Is that case over now?
15 A. Excuse me?
16 Q. Is that case over now?
17 A. I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
18 Q. Is the case over now?
19 A. That was many years ago, 1996, I believe.
20 Q. Okay.
21 When you said on your questionnaire that you and your
22 family sued someone and that you and your family were sued by
23 someone, is all of that that car accident that you have
24 described to me, that case, or is there any other case that
25 either you or your family have been a party in?
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1 A. I was involved in another accident in 1991. I don't know
2 if I had mentioned both in my questionnaire.
3 Q. Okay.
4 The accident in 1991, did that result in any
5 litigation?
6 A. It was settled before we got into any courtroom.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Do you want me to elaborate?
9 Q. Sure.
10 A. I hit somebody on the highway, somebody who stopped on the
11 left lane on the highway and backed up because they had missed
12 an exit, so even though I hit the person in the back on the
13 advice of my lawyers we decided to sue. There was a settlement
14 and I received a settlement. They decided not to go to court.
15 Q. There was a settlement after the lawsuit was filed and
16 before you ever had to go to trial?
17 A. That is correct. It was settled at the stage of -- I don't
18 know the expression --
19 Q. Discovery?
20 A. Discovery, that is correct.
21 Q. Okay.
22 And you had mentioned that you had been in prison
23 overnight. Was that in connection with the marijuana incident?
24 A. Yes, I was arrested at 8 at night and there was -- I
25 believe the reason was they could not get I think it's a rap
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1 sheet and I had to wait until the following day.
2 Q. Okay.
3 You mentioned that you had been a witness at a
4 deposition in a civil lawsuit. Was that one of the lawsuits
5 that you have described?
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Do you recall any other cases in which you have been a
9 witness at a deposition?
10 A. No, those are the only ones.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Now, you have described to us a series of incidents
13 involving your experience with the criminal justice system and
14 the civil justice system and with lawsuits. Now, is there
15 anything about any of those experiences that would prevent you
16 from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. I don't believe it does.
18 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices as a result of any of
19 those incidents against the government, the defendants or any
20 of the lawyers involved in this case?
21 A. I would like to elaborate on that in answer to your
22 question.
23 When I was arrested I was treated with consideration
24 and even though they could have probably sent me home and asked
25 me to come back the following day, they followed the rules and
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1 I spent the night in jail. I considered what they did
2 following the rules. I was not mistreated.
3 On the suit in which I was a foreperson, I believe,
4 and I have to say this, that some of the policemen who
5 testified lied to us and I was very disappointed. So I want to
6 mention those two items. In one everything was followed by the
7 rules and in the other one we believed we were lied to in
8 court.
9 Q. Okay.
10 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
11 have to listen to the testimony of each of the witnesses and
12 make a determination whether each of the witnesses was credible
13 or not credible. Would you do that?
14 A. Yes, I believe I am capable of that.
15 Q. And is there anything about your prior experience in the
16 criminal trial where you were a juror that would prevent you
17 from listening to the testimony in this case and deciding this
18 case based solely upon the evidence or lack of evidence and
19 your assessment of the credibility of each and every witness in
20 this case? Is there anything about your prior experience that
21 would prevent you from doing that?
22 A. I don't believe so, no.
23 Q. Now, you mentioned that even though you spent a night in
24 jail, you thought that you were fairly treated, that you were
25 not mistreated, that the rules were being followed.
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1 Is there anything about that experience that would
2 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
3 A. I don't believe so, Judge. no.
4 Q. And when you say "I don't believe so, no" people express
5 themselves differently. When you say that, is the answer no as
6 best you know the answer is no?
7 A. The answer is no. Nothing that happened before will affect
8 me from serving on this jury.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And you have actually anticipated my next question.
11 Jurors bring with them the experience of their lives. They
12 have to use their common sense when they approach a case, but
13 it's very important to the parties to know, and for the court
14 to know, that the jurors will put aside any prior -- any of
15 their prior experiences or views and look at the evidence or
16 lack of evidence in the case and ask themselves, and decide,
17 whether the government has proven the charges against the
18 defendants beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the evidence or
19 lack of evidence in the case. That is the straightforward
20 issue. And if you were chosen as a juror in this case, would
21 you do that?
22 A. Yes, I would.
23 Q. And is there anything about any of these prior experiences
24 that we have gone over that would prevent from you doing that?
25 A. No, there won't be any.
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1 Q. Could you tell me what kind of law your sister practices?
2 A. Matrimonial, wills, planning for retirement, et cetera.
3 Q. All right.
4 There were a series of questions about kinds of
5 evidence that might be admitted at trial. It's possible that
6 evidence of conversations that were obtained through electronic
7 devices commonly known as bugs or wiretaps might be introduced.
8 It's possible that reported conversations between attorneys and
9 their client might be introduced, and it's possible that
10 evidence that was obtained during searches of various places,
11 as well as surveillance and photographs, might be introduced,
12 and you were asked whether any of that would prevent you from
13 being a fair and impartial juror and you said no, assuming --
14 A. With a caveat.
15 Q. -- assuming that it was not illegal.
16 Now, let me explain. It's up to the court to make the
17 determinations of whether evidence is obtained -- it's up to
18 the court to determine whether any evidence can be admitted at
19 trial as a matter of law. That is what I do. That is what the
20 judge does.
21 It's up to the jury to consider all of the evidence or
22 lack of evidence in the case that is admitted in evidence. The
23 jury can consider all of the evidence, no matter how it was
24 obtained, because it's up to the court to determine whether the
25 evidence should be admitted or not admitted, excluded or not
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1 excluded. That is not for the jury and it's not for the jury
2 to second guess the court's determinations about what is legal
3 or not legal, what can be admitted or not be admitted.
4 So anything that the jury hears at trial is evidence
5 that is before the jury and is before the jury to consider.
6 And it's up to the jury to determine based on all of the
7 evidence or lack of evidence whether the charges in the case
8 have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
9 So whether jurors like that kind of evidence or don't
10 like that kind of evidence is completely irrelevant. The only
11 issue for the jury is to assess the evidence, not to second
12 guess whether it should be admitted or not.
13 Do you understand all of that?
14 A. Yes. I thank you for clarifying it. It's much clearer
15 now, thank you.
16 Q. And is there anything about the fact that any of that kind
17 of evidence might be introduced at trial, is there anything
18 about that that would prevent you from being a fair and
19 impartial juror and considering all of the evidence that is
20 introduced at trial?
21 A. No, I don't believe it will affect me, no.
22 (Continued on next page)
23
24
25
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay. You also pointed out that during your arrest, your
3 home was searched. Is there anything about that that would
4 prevent you from being a fair and impartial junior in this
5 case?
6 A. I don't believe so, no.
7 Q. You mention that you're not very knowledgeable about Islam
8 and what you've learned is from school and the news. Could you
9 tell me in general what you recall learning about Islam?
10 A. Mainly about religion. I am from another religion,
11 Catholic. I am married to somebody who doesn't follow any
12 religion, although from Jewish ancestry. When I was at school
13 I learned about people who live in the Middle East and what
14 they. Practice. Besides that, just the news.
15 Q. Anything in particular in the news that you've learned
16 about Islam?
17 A. Not really. It's -- as I said, I am sort of like a
18 non-religion person. I don't follow any religion.
19 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against any people of
20 Middle Eastern descent or any people of Islamic faith?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. You mention that you've thought that there is a law
23 enforcement bias for or against people of Middle Eastern
24 descent, or people of the Islamic faith. And you said mainly
25 profiling. What did you mean by that?
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1 A. Ever since what happened from 9/11, I had heard, I have
2 read, about what happens when people enter the country: If
3 they look a little different, they are usually looked upon --
4 maybe they are searched more thoroughly than others. I
5 personally used to have that type of situation when I -- in the
6 70's when I was traveling on vacation. My wife would go
7 quickly and I would be searched very thoroughly because I was
8 Latin. And, you know, we're treated a little bit different.
9 And I believe ever since 9/11, some people from Middle Eastern
10 descent probably are suffering that type of situation.
11 Q. All right. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
12 would have to listen to the evidence or lack of evidence in the
13 case and decide whether the charges in the indictment were
14 proven beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. The reason or
15 rationale or anything like that with respect to why this case
16 was brought or anything like that is not for the jury. The
17 jury's determination is: Here are the charges, have the
18 charges been proven beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the
19 evidence or lack of evidence? And that's the jury's function.
20 The jury acts as the finder of fact in the case, and the Court
21 acts as the person who decides all issues of the law.
22 Is there anything about your views with respect to
23 profiling that would prevent you from being fair and impartial
24 juror in the case, listening to the evidence or lack of
25 evidence, and determining whether you believe, based on the
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1 evidence or lack of evidence, that -- whether the charges have
2 been proven beyond a reasonable doubt?
3 A. No, I don't believe so. The reason I answered on those
4 pages on my questionnaire was because I believe everybody
5 should be treated equal. If they want to increase security for
6 people coming into this country, everybody should suffer the
7 same, everybody should have to go through security and
8 everything, not just because of the way you look. That is why
9 I have indicated that.
10 Q. Well, I appreciate your bringing it to my attention. It's
11 responsive to the question that I asked. And so, having heard
12 what you say, it's then important for me to determine that
13 there's nothing about that issue or that view that would
14 interfere with your role as a juror in this case, namely,
15 listening to the evidence or lack of evidence and deciding
16 whether the charges have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
17 Is there anything in those views that would --
18 A. I don't believe any of that would affect me from serving.
19 Q. Okay. You mention that you had a brother who was killed in
20 the 1960's.
21 A. Actually, he was my sister's husband.
22 Q. Ah, brother-in-law. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is there anything about that incident that would prevent
25 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
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1 A. No, I don't believe so, Judge.
2 Q. You mention that you've seen the name Al-Jazeera in the
3 news. Do you personally listen to or watch or read Al-Jazeera?
4 A. No, I sometimes watch war news on TV which is from Europe,
5 and sometimes I listen to radio, and that's how I came across
6 that name.
7 Q. Okay. It is likely that this case will receive ongoing
8 media attention, and the Court wants to make sure that this
9 case is decided solely on the evidence here in the courtroom
10 and not based on things that are said outside the courtroom.
11 So I will instruct the jury that the jury must avoid reading
12 about the case in the newspapers, listening to any radio or
13 television reports or reading any Internet coverage or
14 discussions about the case. And I will also direct that the
15 jurors must avoid discussing the case with friends or family
16 during the course of the trial. Will you follow those
17 instructions?
18 A. I will follow your instructions. I have since three weeks
19 ago.
20 Q. Okay. Would you have any difficulty in following those
21 directions?
22 A. No, I don't.
23 Q. Okay. On the questionnaire, you had said yes, and I
24 thought it was probably a mistake, just at where it came on the
25 questionnaire. But you will follow those instructions and that
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1 will not be difficult for you. Is that correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would be
4 required to decide this case based solely on the evidence or
5 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
6 law. Will you do that?
7 A. Yes, I will.
8 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
9 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history or
10 life experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair
11 and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one final
12 time whether there is anything, whether I've asked you about it
13 specifically or not, that would prevent you from being a fair
14 and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I don't believe there is anything that would prevent it.
16 Q. Okay. As I told you before, sometimes people express
17 their -- themselves differently. When you say you don't
18 believe so, is the answer, there is nothing that will prevent
19 you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. There is nothing that would prevent me from being a
21 partial --
22 Q. Fair?
23 A. Fair and impartial juror.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. Could you step out for a moment?
25 (Juror absent)
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1 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have three concerns. The
2 first is with respect to the law firm that he practices in, or
3 that he works with. Do they do pension work? And if so, do
4 they focus on representing employers, plan administrators,
5 beneficiaries? Just which side of the ERISA triangle is he on?
6 It's helpful in terms of a peremptory.
7 Next, your Honor, he did indicate in answer to
8 Question 98 that he had heard of the attack on the U.S.S. Cole.
9 And asking him what he'd heard about it, we respectfully
10 suggest the Court should do that, given the pendency of the
11 in limine motion that deals with that very issue.
12 The third matter is that your Honor asked him about
13 Question 93. He said his brother-in-law was killed by a
14 leftist in Guatemala in the 1960's, and we would ask your Honor
15 to ask him whether -- if there was evidence in this case that
16 any of these defendants was associated with left wing causes,
17 would that have an effect. And the reason is that there is
18 pending the New York Times motions with respect to the Fried
19 article and particularly the Packer article, both of which
20 rather extensively, to use a polite word, describe Miss
21 Stewart's political views and associations and going well
22 beyond how she functions as a lawyer. And out of an abundance
23 of caution, we respectfully suggest that should be asked just
24 in case that evidence comes in. The government certainly
25 intends to offer it.
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1 THE COURT: Well, I doubt that -- is there any
2 evidence of representing left wing causes in the 60's that the
3 government intends to offer at this point?
4 MR. MORVILLO: No, your Honor.
5 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, it doesn't have to do with the
6 60's. The ongoing problems in Guatemala extend well past that.
7 It's that he chose the term "leftist". And that's -- of all
8 the words. Didn't choose "terrorist", didn't choose
9 "murderer". He chose the term "leftist" to describe someone
10 who had killed his brother-in-law. It's therefore logical to
11 believe that that may be, for him, a term of opprobrium.
12 THE COURT: I am not going to suggest to a juror
13 impermissible -- or place impermissible in juror's minds. I've
14 deliberately asked questions in the way to determine whether
15 there are any biases or prejudices that would prevent the juror
16 from being a fair and impartial juror. And I'm not going to
17 suggest impermissible things despite the fact that I've been
18 asked to do that on various occasions.
19 I'll go back over that in a careful way.
20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I make a suggestion then?
21 I understand your Honor's point, and I support you on your
22 point.
23 Would it be all right to ask whether anything about
24 his views on the political situation in Guatemala would have an
25 effect on his judging the allegations in this case as you have
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1 explained them?
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. TIGAR: That, at least, would be a neutral way for
4 us to get some information about what is, to us, an important
5 issue.
6 THE COURT: Government?
7 MR. MORVILLO: We have no follow-up.
8 THE COURT: So whether there's anything about his
9 views of the political situation in Guatemala 40 years ago.
10 MR. TIGAR: Some of us, your Honor, have been around a
11 long time, including Miss Stewart, and we respectfully suggest
12 that it's relevant. We're grateful to the Court for asking it.
13 THE COURT: All right. If none of these questions
14 produce anything, I intend to ask the juror to come back or
15 call on the 18th -- ask the juror to come back on June the
16 18th, and if there are no further questions -- of course, if
17 you develop a basis for challenge for cause against this juror,
18 of course, then I'll have to carefully consider the parties'
19 issues. Okay.
20 (Juror present)
21 BY THE COURT:
22 Q. Juror 230, I appreciate your patience in answering all of
23 these questions, and I have a few more for you.
24 Could you just tell me in your -- in the law firm that
25 you work for, does the law firm do pension work?
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1 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
2 Q. Yes. The kind of law that the law firm that you work for
3 does, does the law firm do pension work? Do they --
4 A. My firm has a pension department within the law firm.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know if they regularly represent employers or
6 employees or trustees or -- do they have any special --
7 A. We have three lawyers who help our clients with regard to
8 issues with the pension laws and the IRS. If there is a
9 litigation of any client is being sued for whatever reason, we
10 do not represent them. We advise them and --
11 Q. Do you know if that work involves -- do they represent
12 mostly individuals or corporations or employers or employees?
13 Do you know?
14 A. Is usually employers and employees.
15 Q. Okay. You had mentioned that you had -- that you were
16 familiar with the ship attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Can you tell
17 me what you recall hearing or reading about that?
18 A. When it actually happened, I read that a boat, one of those
19 speed boats, had actually rammed the ship. They probably have
20 explosives and it cause a hole in the ship. I was always
21 wondering why it didn't sink. Later on, as I learned more
22 about it I learned that a few soldiers have died and that the
23 ship actually -- water did not go in, and it was eventually
24 repaired.
25 It was just reading the news. I wasn't even aware of
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1 who had done it until 9/11 and -- which they were tied into
2 al Qaeda. I wasn't aware that it was that group that had done
3 it.
4 Q. Okay. If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you
5 would have to listen to the evidence in the case and decide the
6 case based solely upon the evidence and the lack of evidence.
7 Anything that you may have seen, heard or read about any of the
8 events in the course of the trial you would have to ask
9 yourself, what's the evidence or lack of evidence with respect
10 to that in this trial? Because this trial has to be decided on
11 the evidence or lack of evidence at trial and not on the basis
12 of anything the jurors may have seen, heard or read in the
13 past. Do you understand that?
14 A. I believe I would be able to do that, Judge.
15 Q. Okay. You had also mentioned the circumstances of your
16 brother-in-law's death in Guatemala in the 1960's. Is there
17 anything about the political situation in Guatemala at that
18 time and your reactions to it that would prevent you from being
19 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
20 A. Not in this case, Judge. When things are -- happened in
21 the past, did affect my life, one of the reasons why I left my
22 country was probably escaping the situation, the way it was
23 there. That was 35 years ago. I intended to go back to my
24 country. But things were too good in this country for me and I
25 became a citizen. I have children. I got married here.
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1 There is nothing that happened then that could affect
2 my serving on this jury and being impartial. Anything that
3 happened before -- as I say, if anything had helped me grow up,
4 my only concerns about serving on a jury, and I don't mean this
5 jury, is the time and the effects that that has in our lives.
6 I'm a well-educated person, and I don't believe I can make up
7 excuses not to serve. That is one of the reasons why I'm here.
8 Q. Well, I appreciate everything which you have said and told
9 us. And as I explained to you in my preliminary instructions,
10 jury service is an important responsibility of citizenship, and
11 that is true for shorter trials, and it's true for longer
12 trials. And the parties in the case are entitled to have
13 jurors who are dedicated to being fair and impartial jurors and
14 who are prepared to make the necessary sacrifices that we
15 realize juries make in their jury service. So I appreciate
16 everything that you've said.
17 I'm going to ask you to call back in on June the 18th.
18 A. The 18th.
19 Q. And Mr. Fletcher will give you a slip of paper and it will
20 give you the instructions. It's very important that you follow
21 my instructions.
22 Please remember: Don't talk about this case or
23 anything to do with it. Remember not to look at, listen to,
24 anything to do with the case. If you should see something or
25 hear something, just turn away. Remember always, as I'll tell
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1 the jurors, keep an open mind until you've heard all of the
2 evidence, I've instructed the jurors on the law and they've
3 gone to the jury room to begin their deliberations. Fairness
4 and justice requires that we do that.
5 All right?
6 A. I understand. Thank you.
7 Q. Thank you, Sir. Have a good day.
8 (Juror absent)
9 DEPUTY CLERK: 213.
10 THE COURT: There are no other questions and no
11 challenges. Do we have 233?
12 DEPUTY CLERK: Actually, 213 is coming in.
13 THE COURT: 213.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 213.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Since you were here last, has anything changed concerning
19 your ability to serve as a juror in this case. Or has anything
20 occurred to you that may affect your ability to be a fair and
21 impartial juror in this case?
22 A. No, still the same views.
23 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear?
24 A. I still have the same views.
25 Q. All right. Could you tell me what you mean by you still
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1 have the same views? I'll go over the responses to the
2 questionnaire, but could you just tell me, when you say you
3 still have the same views, what views you're referring to?
4 A. I'm just referring to the questionnaire that I filled out.
5 Q. Okay. It now appears that the date that the final jury
6 will be chosen in this case will be Monday, June the 21st. So
7 after today, it's unlikely that you would have to -- in fact,
8 you wouldn't have to call back until June the 18th. Does that
9 present any serious hardship for you?
10 A. Just -- no.
11 Q. Since you were here last, have you spoken to anyone about
12 this case or have you looked at or listened to anything about
13 the case?
14 A. I haven't really heard anything on the news about the case.
15 Q. Okay. Have you looked at anything to do with the case?
16 Have you seen anything in the newspapers or anything like that?
17 A. I haven't noticed anything in the newspapers.
18 Q. Okay. As I told you before, if, inadvertently, you see or
19 hear something, you just turn away.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And when I ask you about whether you've heard anything
22 about the case, that includes any conversations here in the
23 courthouse or with any other prospective jurors. Right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Okay. While you were waiting with the other prospective
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1 jurors, did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let me go over some of the responses on the questionnaire.
4 You had indicated that you had had some college. Can you tell
5 me where you went to college and what you studied?
6 A. Bronx Community College. I studied business
7 administration.
8 Q. Okay. How much time did you have in college?
9 A. About two years.
10 Q. Okay. You mentioned that you were on a -- one criminal
11 trial as a juror.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that was in state court, right?
14 A. I suppose.
15 Q. And it was about a pickpocket?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. How long was the trial?
18 A. About a week.
19 Q. And don't tell me what the verdict was, but the jury
20 reached a verdict?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is there anything about that experience that would -- or
23 with any of the participants in that experience that would
24 prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. You mention that you had served on a grand jury?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was that in state court or federal court. Do you know?
4 A. I think it was state court.
5 Q. And how long did you serve on that jury?
6 A. That was 30 days.
7 Q. Okay. And when was that? Awhile ago?
8 A. Yeah, it was awhile ago.
9 Q. Do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
10 this case, among the instructions that I would give is that an
11 indictment is only a charge. What a grand jury does is it
12 returns indictments, but indictments are only charges. At
13 trial, the government is required to prove the charges in the
14 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's a different
15 standard than grand juries apply. Will you follow my
16 instructions on the law?
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. Do you belong to any civic, social, religious, charitable,
19 volunteer, professional, business organizations? Any
20 organizations?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. Do you read any magazines regularly?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. You mention that you use the radio as your main source of
25 news. Is there any particular program that you listen to on
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1 the radio for news?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What's that?
4 A. I listen to 1010 every day. And then I listen to talk
5 shows every day.
6 Q. Any particular talk shows?
7 A. Bill O'Reilly, Bob Grant, and Michael Savage.
8 Q. Okay. You mention that you are a victim of a serious crime
9 and that you've brought charges against someone. Can you tell
10 me what the nature of the crime was and what the nature of the
11 charges were?
12 A. I guess assault and robbery.
13 Q. And -- okay. And were those the charges that you brought
14 against someone?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what happened with those charges?
17 A. That was a long time ago. It's -- it was 1980, '81.
18 Q. Okay. And did -- was the person against whom you brought
19 the charges, did that person get convicted of those charges?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And that person receive a sentence?
22 A. Yes, they did.
23 Q. And how long was the sentence?
24 A. I really don't know how long it was.
25 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that process or your
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1 reaction to that process, that -- or any of the participants in
2 the process that would prevent you from being a fair and
3 impartial juror in this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mention you were asked whether you had any strong views
6 about lawyers in general or about lawyers who prosecute
7 criminal cases or about lawyers who defend criminal cases. And
8 you said, Yes. Could you tell me what that is?
9 A. I just think whether a person's guilty -- you know, they're
10 still going to defend the person.
11 Q. Okay. Is there anything about that view that would
12 interfere with your ability to assess the evidence in this case
13 or the lack of evidence, and determine whether the government
14 has proved the charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable
15 doubt?
16 A. It might.
17 Q. Why is that?
18 A. It's -- it might. I don't know what to say.
19 Q. The reason that I'm asking this is you've sat as a juror in
20 another criminal case, you know the way in which the process
21 works, you know that all of the defendants are presumed to be
22 innocent. You know that the defendants have the Constitutional
23 right to counsel and it's not clear to me why you -- why any
24 views that you have about lawyers would interfere with your
25 consideration of whether the government has proven the charges
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1 in the indictment against the defendants beyond a reasonable
2 doubt.
3 A. I can be fair with that.
4 Q. Well -- so let me ask you again, now that you've thought
5 about it: Is there anything about your views with respect to
6 lawyers that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial
7 juror, listening to the evidence, and making the determination
8 of whether the government has proven the defendants guilty
9 beyond a reasonable doubt?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Are you sure of that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. You indicated that you were not very
14 knowledgeable about Islam. Could you tell me what, in general,
15 you know about Islam?
16 A. Just know whatever I hear on TV, and on, you know, the
17 newspapers and the radio.
18 Q. Okay. And what, in general, are you referring to about
19 that?
20 A. Well, I know that there's a radical Islam and then there's
21 the, I don't know, normal Islam.
22 Q. Okay. Anything else that you can recall?
23 A. As far as...?
24 Q. Your knowledge of Islam.
25 A. I know they read the Koran. But there's, I guess,
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1 different interpretations of the Koran, or different groups.
2 Q. All right. And you say you've gotten this knowledge from
3 listening to the news?
4 A. Right. Just everyday news.
5 Q. Do you have any -- you were asked whether you have any
6 strong views against the religion of Islam or its adherents,
7 and you said yes; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And why is that?
10 A. I just think their views are pretty extreme.
11 Q. And you were asked whether there is anything about a case
12 where one or more of the defendants are Muslim that would make
13 it hard for you to be a fair and impartial juror. And you said
14 yes. Why is that?
15 A. Well, I think with all the stuff with the 9/11 and the war
16 in Iraq and everything else that's going on, it makes it pretty
17 difficult. To have a -- I don't know, I guess fair and
18 impartial view.
19 Q. The -- all of the parties in the case, the government, each
20 of the defendants, are absolutely entitled to have a fair and
21 impartial jury that consists entirely of people who are fair
22 and impartial, who will listen to the evidence or lack of
23 evidence and decide the case based solely on the evidence or
24 lack of evidence. And I've gone through some of the concerns
25 so far that you've raised. Do you believe that if you were
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1 chosen to be a juror in this case, you would be a fair and
2 impartial juror?
3 A. I am not sure.
4 Q. All right. Could you step out just for a moment?
5 (Juror absent)
6 THE COURT: I'm prepared to excuse the juror. There's
7 lots more.
8 MR. TIGAR: The defense agrees, your Honor.
9 MR. MORVILLO: The government has no objection.
10 (Juror present)
11 BY THE COURT:
12 Q. Juror 213, I'm going to excuse you. I very much appreciate
13 your participating in the process. The time that you took to
14 fill out the questionnaire, coming in, respond to go my
15 questions, the care that you took in answering the questions, I
16 very much appreciate all of that. And you should understand
17 that by participating in the process, you've performed a public
18 service, and you should take satisfaction from that.
19 You can go home now, and all of the paperwork will be
20 taken care of by mail.
21 A. Thank you. I'm just -- just wasn't sure if I could be fair
22 on this case -- particular case.
23 Q. And all I ask is exactly what you've done, which is to
24 respond to my questions fairly and candidly, and to explain
25 where -- what your views are. That's very important, and
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1 you've done exactly the right thing. As I say, you should be
2 satisfied that you have performed a public service by
3 participating in the process.
4 A. All right. Thank you.
5 (Juror absent)
6 (Continued on next page)
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1 THE CLERK: 233.
2 (Juror present)
3 BY THE COURT:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 233. It's nice to see you.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. You had indicated on your questionnaire that you had a
7 serious hardship if chosen in this case, and the hardship I
8 believe that you explained was that you take medicine for
9 diabetes.
10 A. Yes, your Honor.
11 Q. Now, we do in court get people who have diabetes and who do
12 serve as jurors. I realize that the medication is such that
13 you may have to go to the rest room, but we sit for usually
14 from about 9:30 in the morning until 12:45 with a break, and in
15 the afternoon from 2 until 4:30 with a break. So jurors don't
16 sit for any longer than about an hour and a half or 2 hours,
17 and then they take a break. If any juror needs a break, other
18 than at the regular time, all the juror has to do is raise
19 their hand and I will take a break because the comfort of all
20 of the jurors is very important to me.
21 So understanding that, would your diabetes and the
22 medicine that you take, would that be a serious hardship for
23 you to sit on this jury?
24 A. I take diuretics in addition and that is water pill so, you
25 know, a regular day on a water pill I may be able to withstand
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1 an hour and a half or 2 hours in between, but you cannot always
2 hold it that long and it would present discomfort and, you
3 know, also the frequency of the trips to the bathroom. You
4 know, I have been a diabetic for a long time.
5 Q. I am sorry? Keep your voice up.
6 A. I have been a diabetic for a long time and the physician
7 had newly prescribed for me a diuretic pill that is for
8 prevention, for kidney illness and that is what I have
9 unfortunately.
10 Q. I have explained to you that we really won't sit for longer
11 than an hour and a half, up to 2 hours, and that if there were
12 a problem we could take a break for you. Are you uncomfortable
13 sitting for those periods of time?
14 A. I really cannot tell but there are other reasons that I
15 feel may impede my judgment in sitting as a juror.
16 Q. What is that?
17 A. Well, one of the questions in the questionnaire is like for
18 me personally if a person had been charged with something I may
19 have difficulty deciding about if he or she is guilty or not.
20 I feel that if a person is charged on something of course here
21 you always say that a person is not guilty until proven, but
22 somehow if they are charged there must be something behind it,
23 and I have difficulty. I just feel that maybe the person is
24 guilty.
25 Q. You know, you are an intelligent woman, you know that is
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1 not the law.
2 A. I know that is not the law. That is why I have difficulty.
3 Q. And if you were chosen as a juror in this case would you be
4 able to follow my instructions on the law that the defendants
5 are presumed to be innocent, that the government must prove the
6 charges in the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt at trial
7 based on the evidence or lack of evidence presented in court?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Okay. Could you step out for a moment?
10 (Juror absent)
11 THE COURT: I am prepared to excuse the juror.
12 MR. MORVILLO: No objection.
13 MR. TIGAR: The defense consents.
14 (Juror present)
15 BY THE COURT:
16 Q. Juror 233, I will excuse you. All of your paperwork will
17 be taken care of by the mail, so you can go home now.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. All right.
20 (Juror absent)
21 THE CLERK: 236.
22 (Juror present)
23 BY THE COURT:
24 Q. Hi.
25 A. Hello.
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1 Q. Good afternoon, Juror 236.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. I have some preliminary questions before I follow-up on
4 some questions on the questionnaire. Since you were here last
5 has anything changed concerning your ability to serve as a
6 juror in this case or has anything occurred to you that may
7 affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this
8 case?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It now appears that the date that the final jury will be
11 chosen in this case will be Monday, June 21st. So after today
12 it is unlikely you will be called to come back before June
13 18th. Does that present any serious hardship for you?
14 A. I don't have anything on my calendar on that date or the
15 21st.
16 Q. Okay.
17 Since you were here last have you spoken to anyone
18 about the case or have you looked at or listened to anything
19 about the case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Has anyone spoken to you about the case, and that includes
22 any conversations here at the courthouse with any other
23 prospective jurors?
24 A. No one.
25 Q. While you were waiting with the other prospective jurors,
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1 did you or anyone you overheard discuss the case?
2 A. No, we didn't.
3 Q. Okay.
4 Could you tell me what your husband's occupation was?
5 A. My husband was a businessman and he had a taxi business.
6 Q. A factor business?
7 A. Taxi, taxi, a taxi like yellow cab.
8 Q. Oh, taxi. I am sorry, it's my fault. Okay.
9 You mentioned that your son was in Iraq and your son
10 is currently in the Army?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that he is now back from Iraq?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is there anything about your son's military service that
15 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
16 case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mentioned that you have been a juror 3 times and it
19 wasn't clear to me, so let me just go through it. Have you
20 been on trial juries as well as the grand jury?
21 A. My first service was a grand jury and the second service,
22 if I can remember correctly, I was chosen but they settled, and
23 the third case was the same thing, they just settled. So I
24 never really sat on a jury for a trial.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 And when did you sit on the grand jury?
2 A. Oh, wow, I don't know, maybe '96, '95, somewhere around
3 there.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Was that in state or federal court, the grand jury?
6 A. It was at 110 --
7 Q. Centre Street?
8 A. I believe that is on that side.
9 Q. That is the state court.
10 A. State court.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Now, with your participation in these cases where you
13 were called and then the cases settled, is there anything about
14 that experience or your reactions to the experience or any of
15 the parties or participants that would interfere with your
16 ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And with respect to your grand jury experience, is there
19 anything about that experience that would prevent you from
20 being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. I am sorry?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let me just explain for a moment. The grand jury hears
25 evidence and determines whether to return indictments and the
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1 standard of proof before a grand jury is very different from at
2 a trial and at trial the indictment is not evidence of
3 anything, it's just the way in which the case is begun, and at
4 trial the government would be required to prove the charges in
5 the indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you understand
6 that?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And will you follow all of those instructions?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. There was a situation with your sister and I wasn't clear
11 when I read the answers because you said my sister, and there
12 was a word I didn't quite understand, federal court. Can you
13 tell me what happened to your sister?
14 A. My sister, according to the law, she committed perjury and
15 the judge sent her to prison for 6 months or something like
16 that.
17 Q. Okay. And was that in federal court?
18 A. Yes, sir. That was in federal court.
19 Q. And how long ago was that?
20 A. It's going to be almost 2 years.
21 Q. And you testified at your sister's trial?
22 A. Let me explain. I did not testify at her trial. I was
23 called in by the judge to see if I could watch her small child.
24 I did not testify at her trial at all.
25 Q. I see.
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1 A. The judge wanted to know if I could take care of my nephew.
2 Q. And did you do that?
3 A. I did. I commuted back and forth to Connecticut and stayed
4 with him.
5 Q. Okay.
6 And did you visit your sister when she was in prison?
7 A. No. She wished not to.
8 Q. I am sorry?
9 A. She didn't want us to go there.
10 Q. Okay.
11 Now, you had also indicated that someone in your
12 family sued someone and someone in your family was sued by
13 someone. Were you referring to that same perjury case or was
14 there another situation?
15 A. No, that same perjury case.
16 Q. Okay. It was the criminal prosecution that you were
17 referring to, or was there another civil case that was
18 concerned there too?
19 A. I don't believe my sister's case was criminal, in my
20 opinion. I could be wrong about that.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. It was not a criminal case, my sister's.
23 Q. But you don't know?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Is there -- but that was the situation you were referring
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1 to when you answered the question whether someone in your
2 family had sued someone or been sued by someone?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Okay.
5 Now, you also said -- you were asked whether you or a
6 family member or close friend has ever been falsely accused of
7 a crime and you said no.
8 Do you have any views about the prosecution of your
9 sister or her legal situation?
10 A. I was never clear about my sister's situation but because
11 she never really wanted me to get involved in anything because
12 she knows that I am a very good mother and she just didn't want
13 me to worry about things like that, so I really never was clear
14 of anything on that situation.
15 Q. Okay.
16 Now, is there anything about the situation involving
17 your sister and your reaction to the situation or your
18 participation in the process or your reactions to any of the
19 parties or the lawyers or anyone else in that situation that
20 would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in this
21 case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you understand that if you were chosen as a juror in
24 this case you would have to be fair and impartial? You would
25 have to decide the case without any biases or prejudices
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1 towards any of the parties in this case. You would have to
2 decide whether the government has proven the charges in the
3 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the evidence or
4 lack of evidence without bias or prejudice for or against any
5 of the parties in the case, do you understand that?
6 A. I understand that.
7 Q. And will you do that?
8 A. I would do my best.
9 Q. People express themselves differently. When you say you
10 will do your best, will you be a fair and impartial juror in
11 the case?
12 A. I will be a fair and impartial juror, yes.
13 Q. Is there anything about this situation or anything that we
14 have talked about that causes you to doubt whether you will be
15 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 You mentioned that you have close friends of Middle
19 Eastern descent, and you also have co-workers from Afghanistan
20 and Egypt. By the way, the close friends that you have of
21 Middle Eastern descent, do you know what countries they are
22 from or descended from?
23 A. Lebanon and my co-workers are from just about anywhere in
24 the world because of the nature of the business.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 Is there anything about any of those relationships
2 that would prevent you from being a fair and impartial juror in
3 this case?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you have any biases or prejudices against people of
6 Middle Eastern descent or people of the Islamic faith?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You mentioned that you had heard of Sheikh Abdel Rahman in
9 the news. Can you tell me what you heard about him?
10 A. Are you referring to the gentleman who is blind? I can't
11 remember the name.
12 Q. Yes, sometimes referred to as the blind sheikh.
13 A. Yes. I have heard that on the news. I read it in the
14 newspapers and the magazines. But I did not -- other than
15 whatever was on the news and the newspapers I don't know
16 anything else.
17 Q. Okay.
18 Can you recall what it is that you recall reading
19 about him?
20 A. That he was involved with the 9/11 situation in the Twin
21 Towers and I believe one of his lawyers was like giving him
22 information. That is what I recall. I haven't touched or read
23 anything after that.
24 Q. I am sorry?
25 A. I haven't touched or recalled anything else after that
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1 because I don't think it has been on the news or maybe I missed
2 it, I don't know.
3 Q. Okay.
4 There are several really important principles that I
5 want to explain and make clear. First of all, not everything
6 that you read in the press is necessarily true, as I explained
7 in my preliminary instructions, and because reporters try hard
8 to get it right but they don't always get it right --
9 A. I am aware of that.
10 Q. And sometimes what you think you recall that you saw or
11 read may not be accurate also.
12 A. True.
13 Q. And that is among the reasons why it's very important that
14 the jurors who are selected in this case understand that they
15 have to decide this case based solely upon the evidence or lack
16 of evidence in court, and not on the basis of anything that
17 they may have seen or heard or read in the past. And so if you
18 were chosen -- put another way, any case or any matter or any
19 issue that has received some publicity, it's possible that the
20 jurors may have seen or heard or read something about that.
21 That is not the issue. The issue is whether the jurors can put
22 aside anything they have seen or heard or read and listen to
23 the evidence or lack of evidence and base their decision in
24 court solely on the evidence or lack of evidence in court. Do
25 you understand that?
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1 A. Yes, Judge.
2 Q. And would you do that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there anything that you have seen or heard or read about
5 the matters that you just described to me that would prevent
6 you from doing that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It's likely that this case will receive ongoing media
9 attention and it's very important, as I told you before, that
10 the case be decided solely on the basis of the evidence in the
11 courtroom and not based on things that are said outside the
12 courtroom. Accordingly, the court will instruct the jury that
13 they must avoid reading about the case in the newspapers,
14 listening to any radio or television reports or reading any
15 Internet coverage or discussion about the case, and the jurors
16 must avoid discussing the case with friends or family during
17 the course of the trial.
18 Would you follow those instructions?
19 A. I could follow those instructions. However, the nature of
20 my job, we always have the television sets on at everywhere
21 that there is in the area, so whether if I sit there to watch
22 the news or whether if I pass by the news is always going to be
23 there. I am not saying that I will purposely do that or read
24 it, but the television set in my work area are there constantly
25 and they are loud enough for any passerby to hear, you know,
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1 and never mind for the person who is sitting there. When you
2 go through you listen to the news. When you sit down you
3 listen even more.
4 Q. Well, if you were chosen as a juror in the case obviously
5 while you were sitting on the days that we are here you
6 wouldn't be at your office.
7 A. That is true.
8 Q. And if you worked on the days when we are not in session,
9 for example, we don't usually sit on Fridays, what you would
10 have to do is to simply turn away if there were a report about
11 the case because it's plain that the jurors in this case will
12 have the best opportunity to see and hear what the evidence in
13 the case is and it's far more -- well, it's the accurate
14 understanding of what actually went on in the court. You don't
15 have to get someone else's report about what went on in court.
16 You will have heard it.
17 So it would be important if you were chosen as a juror
18 in your private life when you were away from the court, whether
19 it's at home or if you went to the office on a day that you
20 were not here in court if you heard something to turn away.
21 And as I said in my preliminary instructions, if you
22 inadvertently hear something, turn away. If you saw something,
23 turn away. That is the important thing. You don't go out and
24 read something about the case, do research about the case,
25 nothing like that. If you saw something, you should turn away
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1 and understand that your decision has to be based on what is
2 here in court.
3 So could you do that?
4 A. Yes, I could.
5 Q. You had said on the questionnaire that following that
6 instruction would pose difficulty for you, so let me ask you --
7 you seem puzzled. It may be that you said yes, would following
8 that directive pose any difficulty for you, but it was in a
9 line of questions that you were answering "yes" to, so it may
10 have been a mistake when you said "yes" rather than "no". My
11 question was, I explained how you shouldn't look at, listen to
12 anything to do with the case and then I asked would following
13 the court's directive pose any difficulty for you and you said
14 yes. Is the answer no?
15 A. I believe I was referring to when I marked yes on the
16 difficulty, I believe maybe -- I don't have the question in
17 front of me, but I do believe it has to do with my job because
18 I thought I heard you saying that the trial might last between
19 4 to 6 months.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. And difficulties meaning financial, due to the fact that my
22 job would only cover jury duty 3 weeks and anybody that wants
23 to serve beyond those 3 weeks it would be entirely on your own,
24 like using holidays, vacations and so on and so forth. That is
25 what I meant by difficulties, if that is what I think it is on
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1 the questionnaire.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Let me take it in two steps.
4 First, would you follow my directives if you were
5 called as a juror in the case not to look at or listen to
6 anything to do with the case; if you should look at or listen
7 to something just turn away?
8 A. I would.
9 Q. Okay. You raised an issue of your economic situation. On
10 the first page of the questionnaire I said would you have a
11 serious hardship if chosen for this case and you said no. And
12 you then said would serving on this jury cause you economic
13 hardship, and you said no. Then I said will you be paid your
14 salary while you serve jury duty, and you said yes.
15 A. I said that. But then when I went back to work and I said
16 that I was my first day on jury duty and I had to ask questions
17 through my human resources, and they said that they only have 3
18 weeks. They don't have it more than 3 weeks.
19 Q. Okay. Well, I am glad you brought that to my attention.
20 A. So that would be a little bit of a hardship for me being
21 the fact that I am a widow and by myself.
22 Q. Okay.
23 I don't know what your economic situation is and would
24 it be a serious economic hardship for you to serve on the jury?
25 The trial is expected to last 4 to 6 months. You will be paid
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1 the jury fee, $40 at the beginning and then it goes up to $50 a
2 day. So given your economic situation would that be a serious
3 economic hardship for you?
4 A. Now when you say the question that I said no, no, no, when
5 it came to the hardship, the nature of my job is open 352 days
6 of the year. It opens 24 hours all year around. If I could
7 manage to work with human resources schedule wise, because you
8 also mentioned that it would probably be 4 days a week.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Not 5 or 6.
11 Q. Right.
12 A. So normally my weekends is part of the week and part of the
13 weekend, my days off, that is. So if I could work with human
14 resources some sort of a schedule change, turnaround, for the
15 duration of the trial, then perhaps things would go back to
16 normal when it comes to my salary and my hardship. I pay
17 loans, you know.
18 (Continued on next page)
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1 BY THE COURT:
2 Q. Okay?
3 A. I say, I pay loans. I educated my children at three
4 different universities. So I'm still paying those loans, aside
5 from my regular bills.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. So that -- if that could be worked out and if I am
8 selected, it's a possibility. But if not, then it's not going
9 to work out.
10 Q. What do you mean, it's not going to work out?
11 A. If Human Resources is not willing to switch around my days
12 and permit me to work my two days off and be in court the other
13 days --
14 Q. So you will be able to work, barring something unforeseen
15 here, Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays? We work Mondays through
16 Thursdays.
17 A. Yes. However -- whether that be approved of the Department
18 of Labor and the State of New York -- you know, they have to
19 take all that into consideration in my department -- in my
20 office because they follow the law when it comes to -- being in
21 jury duty is considered to be a full day of work. So that I
22 don't know how they're going to work it out, if they work it
23 out -- or if they can even try -- I don't know.
24 Q. But that's something you have to check out.
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. All right. Let me ask you just a couple of other
2 questions.
3 If you were chosen as a juror in this case, you would
4 be required to decide the case based solely on the evidence or
5 lack of evidence and in accordance with my instructions on the
6 law. Will you do that?
7 A. Yes, your Honor.
8 Q. As you can tell from all of my questions, the fundamental
9 issue is whether there is anything in your personal history,
10 your life experience, that would prevent you from acting as a
11 fair and impartial juror in this case. So let me ask you one
12 final time whether there's anything, whether I've asked you
13 about it specifically or not, that would prevent you from being
14 a fair and impartial juror in this case?
15 A. I am a fair person. I -- even though I had to see part of
16 the law when it come to my sister, that was her business, and
17 that's my business. I do go -- a true life -- try to go a true
18 life, the right way. I don't do things because you tell me to
19 do things, or because somebody else tells me to do things. I
20 do things the way I believe is the right way. And if I don't
21 know, I ask.
22 Q. Okay. Would you be a fair and impartial juror in this
23 case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Will you follow my instructions on the law?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Could you step out for a moment?
3 (Juror absent)
4 THE COURT: I intend to, unless I hear anything else
5 from the parties, I intend to tell the juror to -- that she
6 should check with her employer. Please don't say anything
7 about the nature of the case. She can say she's been asked to
8 serve on a long trial which may take four to six months, and
9 the judge has asked if she would confirm with her employer
10 whether arrangements can be made that she would be able to do
11 that. And I would ask her to get back to Mr. Grate promptly as
12 to whether she can serve on the jury, and if she can serve,
13 she'll be in the pool; and if she cannot serve, she will not
14 be.
15 Is that satisfactory with everyone?
16 MR. MORVILLO: It is with the government, your Honor.
17 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, for the defense.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 (Juror present)
20 BY THE COURT:
21 Q. Juror 236, you are still in the jury selection process.
22 But you have raised an issue for us as to whether the
23 service -- your service in this case would be a serious
24 economic hardship for you, and the answer to that question
25 depends upon your talking to your employer. And I appreciate
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1 that.
2 So what I will ask you to do is to talk to your
3 employer and say that you've been asked to possibly serve on a
4 long case that would last four to six months. Possibly last
5 four to six months. Can arrangements be made to allow you to
6 serve? And I'll ask you to respond to Mr. Grate, the person
7 that you've been calling for instructions, and his name will be
8 on this piece of paper that Mr. Fletcher gives to you, and I'd
9 ask you to check with your employer promptly and get back to
10 Mr. Grate promptly. I realize it may take a little time. But
11 please do that.
12 And don't talk about the case or what case it is or
13 anything about the case other than the fact that it's a long
14 trial and the judge has asked you to check if you could serve
15 for a period of up to four to six months. And then you'll
16 inform Mr. Grate whether you can do it or not.
17 If you can do it, as I say, you're still in the jury
18 pool, and Mr. Fletcher will give you the piece of paper to
19 indicate to call back on June the 18th, and you'll get further
20 instructions at that time.
21 Meanwhile, continue to follow my instructions. Don't
22 talk about the case at all or anything to do with it. Please
23 remember not to look at, listen to, read anything to do with
24 the case. If you should hear or read something, just turn
25 away. Remember as I tell all of the jurors: Keep an open mind
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1 until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on
2 the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your
3 deliberations. All right?
4 A. I have a question.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Because my employer is going to ask me that: When is the
7 estimated time of trial beginning?
8 Q. June 21st.
9 A. Oh, the trial will begin on June 21st.
10 Q. What will happen on -- unless something changes, what would
11 happen is that June 21st would be the final jury selection.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. And that we would then move promptly into the trial.
14 A. But are we referring now -- so I would have to tell them
15 that it's going to be like beginning on the 21st of June, on,
16 four months later?
17 Q. Correct. Four to six months.
18 A. Four to six months. Okay, I will ask that. That's it.
19 Q. And see if your schedule can be adjusted in such a way such
20 that you can do that.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Given the importance of jury service and the importance of
23 the responsibility of jury service.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Okay?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Thank you, Juror 236.
3 A. You're welcome. Thank you. Good night.
4 (Juror absent)
5 THE COURT: Okay. That completes the day. And we'll
6 do the next 20 tomorrow, and any ones that we pick up that we
7 missed who are coming in tomorrow -- you need to confer for a
8 moment?
9 (Off the record)
10 THE COURT: 247 is stricken, yes?
11 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Yes.
12 MR. DEMBER: 247? I believe that's right.
13 THE COURT: So we'll go down to Number 278 tomorrow.
14 Number 130 on your list, Juror Number 278.
15 Okay. See you all tomorrow.
16 (Adjourned to Thursday, May 27, 2004, @ 9:30 a.m.)
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