From: lpb@florida.swdc.stratus.com (Len Bucuvalas)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Interview with Lazar on Area 51
Message-ID: <8745.23752@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM>
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:23:01 GMT
References: <67397@cup.portal.com> <72095@cup.portal.com>
Lines: 1231



The following are some of the first messages that appeared on the Paranet
UFO network regarding Robert Lazar.
 
----Begin Included Text ---------------------------------------------
 


Message #2505 "PN: UFO"
Date: 11-Nov-89 03:25
From: Michael Corbin
To:   All
Subj: For Immediate Release
Next Reply is Message #2506

November 10, 1989

     ParaNet  Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening  saw
perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy.  KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,
Nevada  has  been airing a UFO special during  the  evening  news
which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and  cover-up.
The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage
with  a  history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s  and  moving
forward  through  the  numerous sighting reports  to  the  cattle
mutilations,  which was aired last evening.  As promised  at  the
close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman  for
Channel  8  in Vegas, stated that a scientific  person  would  be
featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51,
the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Indeed,  quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist  who
claimed  that  he had worked on a project at  Area  51  involving
flying disks provided by alien intelligences.
     Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating  to
possible  involvement  with the government in  projects  of  this
nature at the Nevada test site.  Up to now, the stories have been
of a very speculative nature.  Although the material presented by
Robert  Lazar  remains unconfirmed, enough information  has  been
disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada  has
started  an  intensive investigation into this  release.   It  is
interesting  to  note that Robert Lazar is an associate  of  John
Lear  and  has been providing this information to Lear  over  the
last  few  months.  Lear has appeared on Channel  8  on  numerous
occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous  'ET
Hypothesis.'   According  to  Lear,  Lazar  was  instrumental  in
providing  Lear  with locations overlooking the test  site  which
would  provide a good view of the objects as they flew  into  the
night  sky.   Lear attempted to shoot video of an  object  as  it
maneuvered  through  the night sky during  last  summer,  however
nothing  was captured on the tape of a substantive nature.   Lear
also  relates  that his group was harassed by  a  Lincoln  County
sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.
     Below  is  a  transcript  of the  program  that  aired  this
evening.   All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator  of  the
segment.   We were as accurate as possible on the  transcription,
however  there are a couple of places where comments were  edited
out due to inability to understand what was being said.
     Further  reports  will be provided  as  information  becomes
available.
=================================================================

     We've  been  working  on  the  story  for  some  time....UFO
researchers  claim that there is a secret government  within  our
government.  Now this may be hard to believe coming from the  UFO
perspective,  but  we have learned that Watergate  and  the  Iran
Contra  scandal  that factions within our government can  and  do
pursue  their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside  the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American  people.
This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight.
It's  a  chilling scenario with worldwide implications  that  may
have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].
     Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site,  is
no  longer considered a secret.  The fact that  secretive  things
go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily  spy
flights  over  the facility to take a peek at  what's  going  on.
These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as
anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like  again.
The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile
long  runway  and some highly sophisticated radar  and  detection
equipment.   Its  been  known by many names  over  the  years  --
Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works.  If ever there was a place
to  test  the  secret new technology, this  is  it.   And  that's
exactly what has been done here for decades.
     Area  51  is  where Francis Gary Powers and  the  other  U-2
pilots  were trained in the 50s.  And, where the U-2  itself  was
developed.   The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles  in
Cuba  in  the early 60s were also developed at 51.  51  is  where
Stealth  technology  was nurtured, where Star  Wars  devices  are
still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business  has
been  plotted  and refined.  It's the perfect  place  for  secret
things,  but  of course, that's no secret.  51 is ringed  by  the
forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming  Groom
Mountain  and  by sparsely populated desert  expanses.   But  the
people that do live out here have no love lost for the  military,
but  they're  conservative,  patriotic and they  mind  their  own
business.

Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51:  "Ever  see
something that you can't explain?"
Resident: "Sure, lots of times."
Interviewer:  "Care to elaborate?"
Resident:  "No."  (Laughter).

     On  any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill,  you  might
find  three or four people who work at Area 51.  They  are  among
the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats.  You might find  them,
but  they  are not going to talk to you.  Not about the  things  that
they have seen over the mountain.  A steady trickle of curiosity-
seekers  flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange  stories
of lights in the night sky.  Their questions also go  unanswered.
No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged
what  so  many  people  have suspected  for  years:   That  alien
technology is being tested in the Nevada desert.
     The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by  UFO
researchers.  Documents about something called Project  Aquarius.
The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12,
states  that  a  program to fly recovered  alien  spacecraft  was
established  in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada.   The  National
Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but
denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers.  NSA  will
not say what Project Aquarius is.
     Speculation  was  heightened  in 1984, when  the  Air  Force
seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake.  The action was, by
most accounts, illegal.  During Congressional hearings about  the
land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military  about
the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority
was   at  a  much,  much  higher  level  than  the   Air   Force.
Siberling  asked  what authority is higher than the laws  of  the
United States?  The Air Force official said he could respond, but
only in a closed briefing.  In 1987, when the Air Force sought to
renew  its  stranglehold on the Groom range, news  articles  once
again  mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft  and  subsequent
articles  in  national magazines quoted  un-named  sources  about
things of alien origin flying in Nevada.  Things that would  make
film-maker  George Lucas drool.  Despite the speculation, no  one
who  knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about  the
saucer story.

Bob  Lazar:  "Well, there's several uh, actually nine  uh  flying
saucers,  flying  disks that are out  there  of  extraterrestrial
origin."   The  live  interview with the  shadowy  "Dennis"  drew
international attention.  Portions were broadcast by radio in six
European  countries, and in a nationally televised TV special  in
Japan.
     Despite  numerous  inquiries  and  "feelers,"  "Dennis"  has
remained anonymous until now.  His real name is Robert Lazar.   A
young scientist with eclectic interests.  The choice of  "Dennis"
was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior  at
Groom Lake.  It wasn't a joke to Dennis.

Lazar:   "He called right after and said, 'Do you have  any  idea
what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up
the phone."

     Lazar's  story is by any standard, fantastic.  He says  he's
telling it in order to protect himself.  He said he was hired  to
work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.
At  S-4,  he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter  reactors  and
other  working  examples of technology that is  seemingly  beyond
human capabilities.

Lazar:  "Right.  This stuff came from somewhere else.  I know  it
is  hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it.  I  know  what
the  current  state-of-the-art is in physics and it it  can't  be
done."

     Checking  out Lazar's credentials proved to be  a  difficult
task.   He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics,  but
the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him.  He
says  he  also  worked  as a physicist  at  Los  Alamos  National
Labs  where  he worked with one of the world's  largest  particle
beam  accelerators,  a  half-mile  long  'behemoth'  capable   of
generating  seven-hundred  million volts.  Los  Alamos  officials
told  us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working  there.
They were either mistaken or were lying.  A 1982 phone book  from
the  Lab lists Lazar right there among the other  scientists  and
technicians.  A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos  newspaper
profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars.  It, too,  mentioned
his  employment at the Lab as a physicist.  We called Los  Alamos
again,  and  an  exasperated official told us  he  still  had  no
records  on  Lazar.   EG&G,  which is where  Lazar  says  he  was
interviewed  for the job at S-4, also has no record.  It's as  if
someone has made him disappear.

Lazar:  "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the
places that I called...."
Interviewer:  "Explain.  Called where?"
Lazar:   "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital  that  I
was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."

     He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must
sound  ridiculous.   According  to Lazar, his  employer  was  the
United  States Navy.  He says he and other  government  employees
would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people
would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive  to
S-4.

Interviewer:  "You get off the bus, what do you see?"
Lazar:   "A  very  interesting  building.  Its  got  a  slope  of
probably  about  30 degrees which are hangar doors,  and  it  has
textured paint on it, but it looks like sand.  It's made to  look
like  the  side of the mountain that it is in,  whether  it's  to
disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."

     He  says he was never told exactly what he would be  working
on, but figured it had something to do with advanced  propulsion.
On  his first day he was told to read a series of briefings,  and
immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.

Lazar:   "The power source is an anti-matter reactor.   They  run
gravity  amplifiers.   There is actually two parts to  the  drive
mechanism.   It's  a bizarre technology.  There  is  no  physical
hookups between any of the systems in there.  They use gravity as
a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."

     It  took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw  one  of
the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.

Lazar:   "Right.   They  had  a poster,  and  it  looked  like  a
commercial  poster, like it was lithographed, like you could  buy
it  at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place  and
it  had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor  model'  which
lifted  off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in  the  Dry
Lakes  area,  and the caption on it said 'They're  here.'   These
posters were all over the place."

     Later, he got to see the real thing.

Lazar:  "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw  the
'floor  model'  in the hangar sitting down, and I was  told  they
could have walked me in the front door but they purposely  wanted
to walk me by it.  I was told not to say anything and to keep  my
eyes  forward and walk past the disk to the office area.   And  I
did.   And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands  on  it,
just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to
see actually lift off the ground and operate."
Interviewer:  "You actually got to see more than one?"
Lazar:   "Yeah.  The hangars are all connected  together.   There
are large bay doors between each one.  There were nine total that
I  saw, each one being different.  Like they had  the  assortment
pack."

     Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors
used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.

Lazar:  "They did everything but physically hurt me."
Interviewer:  "They put a gun to your head?"
Lazar:  "Yeah."
Interviewer:  "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"
Lazar:   "They did that even in the original  security  briefing.
Guards there with M-16s.  Guys there slamming their fingers  into
my  chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing  weapons  at
me.  Like I said, it's not a good place to work."

     That  fear  factor  would surface later.   Lazar  agreed  to
undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report.  Polygrapher Ron
Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.

Polygrapher:   "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually  seen
anti-gravity propulsion in operation?"
Lazar:  "No."

     The results of this exam were inconclusive.  Lazar  appeared
to  be  truthful  on  one test;  deceitful  on  a  second.   Clay
recommended  that a second examiner be brought  in.   Polygrapher
Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is
a  former Los Angeles police officer.  He put Lazar through  four
tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.
     Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher  who
agreed the results appeared truthful.  The charts were then  sent
to  a  fourth examiner who did not agree  suggesting  that  Lazar
might  be  relating information he'd learned from  someone  else.
The  polygraphers  concurred and decided they would not  issue  a
final  statement on truthfulness until more specific testing  can
be conducted.  And that's where it stands.
     Tabernetti  believes the difficulty in  determining  Lazar's
truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.

Lazar:  "Well, I am telling the truth.  I've tried to prove that.
What's  going  on up there could be the most important  event  in
history.   You're  talking about contact,  physical  contact  and
proof from another planet, another system, another  intelligence.
Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period.  And,  it's
real  and it's there.  And I had an extremely small part  in  it.
I'm  convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that.   There
is  no way that we could have created those disks.  There  is  no
way  we could have made the disks, the power  supplies,  anything
that goes with it."

     Lazar  says he has no intention of going on any UFO  lecture
circuit.  He is not looking to do any additional interviews.   In
fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one.  He did it after
certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and  he
did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-
4  is  perpetrating  a  fraud on  the  American  people  and  the
scientific community.

=================================================================


Message #3969 "PN: UFO"
Date: 12-Nov-89 01:48
From: Michael Corbin
To:   All
Subj: Correction to the Area 51 transcript

SUBJECT:  ADDENDUM/CORRECTIONS RE 11/10/89 KLAS-TV/NEVADA TEST
SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT

My introduction to the partial transcript of the program contains
certain  presumptions -- rather than evidence -- which may be misleading.
These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear
and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed as Robert Lazar.

>  It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of
>  John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over
>  the last few months.

The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear is unknown.  In fact,
Lear appears to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of
whom could have provided him with the Area 51 information.

>  According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear
>  with locations overlooking the test site which would provide
>  a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky.

In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered Lear to the specific
locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site.  Lear has made no statement
regarding Lazar in this regard.

>  As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp,
>  a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a
>  scientific person would be featured on tonight's program
>  who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's
>  super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.

Rather than being situated at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51
lies in the northeast corner of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at
Mercury, Nevada, which is 65 miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.

Mike


Message #4002 "PN: UFO"
Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22
From: Robert Klinn
To:   All
Subj: Area 51:  The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?
Next Reply is Message #4023

With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds. 
Disinformation?  Reality?
What next?
At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking
down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51.  Off-air, Meek says he
has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections.  Of those, he has
learned the type of activity occurring at two of them.  He has been having
much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two.
KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri.
In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs
abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test
Site.  Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m.
Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the
craft he saw operating at the base.
Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices.
Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile.
War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn
--- QuickBBS v2.04
 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422)


Message #4024 "PN: UFO"
Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55
From: Michael Corbin
To:   All
Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued.

November 13, 1989

     ParaNet   Information  Service  (Denver,  CO)  --   In   our
continuing  coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out  of
Las  Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to  the  program
aired  on  November 13, 1989 by television  station  KLAS-TV  and
George Knapp.

=================================================================
News Anchor persons:
     A  former  government scientist has alleged  that  the  U.S.
military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the  Nevada
desert.  The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom
Mountains  first  surfaced  on Eyewitness  News  on  last  Friday
[November 10, 1989].
     Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the
flying  saucers  being  tested and that they were  not  built  on
Earth.   George Knapp has more on the continuation of our  series
on UFOs.

Lazar:   "Yeah.  It was obvious it came from somewhere else,  uh,
other than Earth."

     Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw
being  tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is  of  alien
origin,  and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially  in  the
furniture.   One of the nine flying disks he says he saw  at  the
base,  which  was  designated S-4, looks exactly  like  this  UFO
photographed  in Europe [Photo of UFO shown].   Lazar  called  it
the "sport model."

Lazar:  "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you  know
the  jello  mold and, uh, the sport model  operated  without  any
hitches  at  all.  I mean, it looked new.  If I knew what  a  new
flying  saucer looked like.  One of them looked like it  was  hit
with  some  sort  of a projectile.  It had a large  hole  in  the
bottom  and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out  like
some  sort  of,  you know, large caliber 4 or  5  inch  had  gone
through it."

     Even  before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says,  he
suspected   that  the  ship  came  from  somewhere   else.    The
realization  slapped him in the face the first time  he  glimpsed
the inside of the disk.

Lazar:  "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs.   I
think  that  was the first confirmation I had.  That was  just  a
shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to  label
it.  This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had
formed  and,  you know, they're keeping it secret, and  yeah,  we
could  have  built  a big disk like that,  and  yeah,  that's  no
problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to  make
it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside?  [garbled].
And things began to click together just all too fast."

     A  few of the disks had been completely dismantled  to  find
out   how  they  worked,  Lazar  says,  but  others  were   fully
operational.  A Japanese TV network created this animated version
of  Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in  May
[showing  video].  Lazar says the dramatization is similar  to  a
test flight he witnessed.

Lazar:  "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any,
like  high  voltage does on a round sphere.  It's  my  impression
that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is  to
contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high  voltage
system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a  corona
discharge.   In either case, it began to hiss as in high  voltage
and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little  hiss
in  the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached  about
20 or 30 feet."

     Lazar  says the test of the sport model was a short  one  --
that  it  made  only a few moves before setting  back  down.   He
didn't  see  who  was actually flying the  craft,  but  was  very
impressed, nonetheless.

Lazar:  "Well, there's no action reaction system to it.   There's
no,  like  in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown  out  --  no
propeller,  no noise.  It's just, for all intents  and  purposes,
magic."

     To  Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being  used,
for  say, any flights to Jupiter.  He said excessive caution  and
intense  secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the  program
and were a main source of his disenchantment.

Lazar:   "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the  hands
of the overall scientific community.  There are people much  more
capable of dealing with this information, and by this time  would
have  gotten a lot further along than this small select group  of
people working out in the middle of the desert.  They don't  even
have  the facilities, really, to completely analyze what  they're
dealing with."

Gene  Huff:  "Well he was being quiet.  If he kept me abreast  of
anything,  he  kept me abreast of the security checks  --  they'd
randomly  drop  by his house.  They'd threaten his  life;  they'd
threaten  his wife's life.  They had done all that so  we  really
didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."

     Gene  Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser.  A  regular
guy  who  just  happens to have a friend  in  the  flying  saucer
business.  He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after  a
long period.  Lazar is anxious for people to know that he  didn't
just  run  right out and spill the secrets of the  universe,  and
that some things are properly kept confidential.

Lazar:  "I did not believe that this should be a security matter.
Some  of it, sure.  But, just the concept that  there's  definite
proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world,  another
system, you just can't not tell everyone.  A lot of people  don't
believe that.  But, I do."

     When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took
Huff  and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to  see
the  flights  for themselves.  A total of five witnesses  on  two
consecutive  weeks managed to dodge security patrols long  enough
to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.

Huff(?):   "Uh,  it came up above the same  mountain.   It  moved
around.   It  did a step move -- it actually went up in  the  air
like  this  [showing  details with hands]  and  it  hovered  then
dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised  around.
It starts coming up the mountain range...."

     This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to
the   Groom   Mountains   [showing  video   tape.    A   lot   of
talking....Object  in  sight....Mention  of  brightness  of   the
object....].
     Admittedly,  the tape proves very little by itself  because,
with  the distance and darkness,  there are no  reference  points
other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about
the  time and location of the test flight proves correct  --  not
once  but  twice.  That, according to our  off-camera  interviews
with each of the other witnesses.  Gene Huff describes his second
sighting:

Huff:   "Through the telescope we could see an  elliptical-shaped
light.   You  can only get so close even with a  telescope  to  a
secure  facility.   Anyway, it came up by us  very  rapidly.   It
glowed  and  glows  brighter like a star and we  almost  got  the
feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly.   We
backed  up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up  a
little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where  the
mountains  where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then  that's
that....Just like you see in the movies."

     Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside  knowledge"
of  the  flying  disks at the test site -- he is  just  the  only
person  to  say so publicly.  We have communicated  with  several
people who say they know of the saucer program.  A technician  in
a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among
those  with high security clearances that recovered  alien  disks
are  stored at the Nevada test site."  A Las Vegas  professional,
who  once  served in the military and was stationed at  the  test
site,  said he saw a flying disk land outside the  boundaries  of
Area  51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security  personnel
and  that he was taken away and debriefed for several  hours.   A
man  who  once  worked  at Groom Lake as  a  technician,  at  our
request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked
into  the  wrong  hangar  and saw what appeared  to  be  a  large
metallic disk under a tarp.  It was being examined by men in  lab
coats.   And,  an  airman  who  worked  at  Nellis  at  a   radar
installation  says  he and his fellow servicemen watched  over  a
period  of  five nights, unusual objects flying  over  the  Groom
Mountains.  He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed
into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would  stop
on  a  dime, and that nothing we have is capable of  doing  that.
The  airman says that when word of his sighting got out,  he  was
ordered  to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told  to
keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.
     None  of  this means that the military  is  actually  flying
alien  spacecraft in the Nevada desert.  It could all perhaps  be
explained as some other secret program.  Lazar insists that's not
the case.
     We  put  the  matter to the U.S. Navy,  which  according  to
Lazar, is running the saucer show.  Four different naval  offices
were  contacted.   All  denied having any  information  in  their
files.   The  Naval  Research Lab said it  conducted  a  thorough
search  but found "zip."  Naval Intelligence said much  the  same
thing,  adding,  it is not required to create a  file  where  one
doesn't  exist.  A side note:  We also requested files on  a  UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952.  The Navy spent more  than
a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact  that's
been  noted in several publications -- but, for purposes  of  our
request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.

Lazar:   "The group that runs this project, whether it really  is
the  Navy  or they just say that, apparently  these  people  have
executive power -- they don't report to anyone."

     Tomorrow,   more  troubling  allegations  of  the   military
potential of alien technology.

=================================================================

This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.

End of file


-- 
-* Don Allen *-  InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP  // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona      0110 0110 0110 Just say NO! 
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"


Article 5373 of alt.conspiracy:
Path: lassie!voder!apple!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!ge-dab!tarpit!bilver!dona
From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy
Subject: INFO: Chuck Harder interview of George Knapp -LAZAR
Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51
Message-ID: <1991Jul4.020919.15517@bilver.uucp>
Date: 4 Jul 91 02:09:19 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Lines: 631
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:5373



----------------------------------------------------------------------
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation 
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)
                                                          
As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp    
in mail. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late
1989 to 1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and
are copyrighted by Paranet to insure their integrity. I have not      
gotten express permission to re-publish them here; however it's my   
*intent* to make them available for their informational content only.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the Chuck Harder radio interview  "For The People" of 
George Knapp, regarding Robert Lazar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 

DATE OF UPLOAD:  December 23, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD:  ParaNet Information Service
CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet
========================================================
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
========================================================

INTERVIEW  WITH  GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS,  NEVADA)  ON
NOVEMBER  17,  1989.   INTERVIEWED  BY  CHUCK  HARDER,  HOST  AND
MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.

                          CHUCK HARDER
My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he  is
and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his
own protection.  George, are you there...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Hello Chuck.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
That's right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
George, what do you do for a living?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
I'm  a  journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the  CBS  affiliate
here.

                          CHUCK HARDER
So you are a TV newsman...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right.

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  understand  that  you have come  upon  some  very  interesting
information and you've done some special reports, could you  tell
us about it...?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well  we  just  finished a nine-part series -- what  may  be  the
longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with
UFOs.

Our  research actually started about two and a half years ago,  a
fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the  Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our attention.  In May of
this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to  have
worked  at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret  Nevada
test  site...the  fellow said that he worked on  flying  saucers,
that  the technology was not from Earth, and we  interviewed  him
live  in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we  got
response  from Japan, parts of that interview aired on  radio  in
Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with
this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in
more depth.

We  started doing that and the first thing we found out  is  that
really  UFOs  have  not been given a fair shake  by  science,  by
government,  by religion and especially by journalism.   Millions
of  people  have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I  think  the
latest  Gallup  poll shows about 70 percent  of  college-educated
Americans  believe that there's something to it, but  because  of
the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'
--  kind  of things in the National Enquirer, people  have  shied
away  from  it...Serious  people have  shied  away.   Scientists,
although  they might be interested in searching the universe  for
radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --
they can't get grants...people would laugh at them.  Journalism -
- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky,  especially
by  the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that  supposedly
landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured  out
that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the
'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?'  So we  started
investigating it.  The focal point of the story being this fellow
who  said he worked at S-4.  We broke his identity  last  Friday.
His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los
Alamos  National  Labs,  he  is a physicist...we  did  a  lot  of
checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life  was
disappearing  around  him.  In other words we called  Los  Alamos
Labs and they said they never heard of him.  We called MIT  where
he  says he went to school and they had never heard of  him.   We
called  for  his Birth records and they had  disappeared...as  if
someone  was  trying to make him a non-person.   We  did  however
confirm  some of the information that he had given us...we  found
newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had  indeed
worked  there...we found an old telephone book from the lab  with
his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in
our eyes.  The story he tells is an incredible one.  He was hired
to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up
to  a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows  to
S-4...the  base  is  built almost to look like its  part  of  the
desert  with  sand covered hanger doors, he goes  inside  and  he
starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs!  Pictures
of  UFOs  on the walls, pictures of aliens,  autopsy  reports  on
alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed.  Then
he sees the discs.  He says there are nine of the discs up there,
they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own
gravitational  field...technology  that does not  exist  on  this
planet,  and the interesting thing...he thought for a while  that
perhaps  it was just an advanced secret scientific  project  that
our  government  is pursuing until he looked inside  one  of  the
discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built
like  for children...and then things started coming together  for
him.  Are you with me Chuck?

                          CHUCK HARDER
I'm listening.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Oh I think you ought to keep going.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months.  And it was
a  rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and  he
was  being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus  he's
on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he  starts
to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ummmmmm.....

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He  had  the  date of a couple of tests and  on  two  consecutive
weekends  he  took  people  up into the  desert  outside  of  the
boundaries  of area S-4, and they video taped the  saucers...what
looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!

                          CHUCK HARDER
Wow...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
We showed that video as well...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Uh-huh....

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up  there
confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits
of  his  story  from other people, a former  security  guard  who
worked  up  there...who said he had seen the  saucers,  a  former
technician...

                          CHUCK HARDER
By  the  way,  excuse me, I have some letters  from  some  people
postmarked  from  that area, one inside of a base, who  tells  me
what you're saying is true.  Keep going.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Ah,  we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty  at
Nellis  airbase  which is here just south of the area  that  this
fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...

                          CHUCK HARDER
George,  excuse me...let me do the half hour news break,  I  want
you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please  stand
by.

>>>>At  this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour  news
headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<

(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have
just tuned in...)

                          CHUCK HARDER
How many reports did you do, George?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
We did nine total in this series.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told  me
that a scientist named Bob Lazar...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok,  came  to  you  and came to the  public  and  apparently  was
concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get
news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and
yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Cause  I  have letters from people who are at  Nellis.   Some  of
which  don't  want to give their name, some of which  gave  their
name, I have the postmarks.  Tell us now if you would, start  the
story  from the fact that the gentleman has revealed  that  there
are nine of these things.  We're listening and so is America.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well,  we  wanted  to  try to confirm as much  of  his  story  as
possible from other sources of course, so we started looking  for
other  people  who  might have knowledge of what's  going  on  up
there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who  said
that  he  had  seen  the  saucers up  there,  I  found  a  former
technician who said that he had walked into a room  inadvertently
and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked
in  radar  and said that basically he and his fellow  airman  has
seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to
7,000  miles  per  hour on radar...these things would stop  on  a
dime,  so  the  guy knew that this is not your  average  airplane
that's doing this.  We also interviewed the other people who went
with  Lazar  up  on  two consecutive weeks,  they  test  them  on
Wednesdays for some reason,  and videotaped the tests,  saw these
things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.

We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked  for
up  there  --  we made Freedom of Information  Act  requests  for
information about the various specific programs he mentioned,  of
course  the Navy denied having any information on  the  programs.
Of  course in those requests we also asked for other  information
about  UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they  denied
having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of  faith
in the FOIA requests.

                          CHUCK HARDER
In  other  words, what you're saying is  that  your  organization
which  is  KLAS-TV  in Las Vegas, plus many  other  UFO  research
groups  have  uncovered many UFO documents  that  the  government
says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when  you
ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Exactly...that's exactly correct!

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  understand  from MUFON and many other groups  that  there  are
somewhere  from  four  to seven  thousand  documents  that  prove
that...yes  these  things exist, copies of the documents  are  in
private  hands, then you go and ask the government and they  say,
'Well, er, no we don't remember...'

                          GEORGE KNAPP
The  government says that they have done these studies  that  say
that  UFOs  are no threat to national  security,  they're  either
psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts  when
they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind  the
scenes  they  are  very concerned  about  the  national  security
implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't
be  caught, things of that nature.  So the government  from  what
I've  read  is  very concerned about the  phenomena  and  doesn't
really  understand  it.   The government on the  other  hand  has
outright lied concerning what information it does have...the  CIA
for   example  says  it  doesn't  collect  any   information   on
UFOs...well  that's  just patently not true.  We  have  documents
from  the  CIA, a lot of it is blacked out,  which  mentions  UFO
studies  by  the  CIA,  UFO  research,  CIA-UFO  experts,  agency
personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to
us all along.  I didn't expect to get any confirmation  regarding
what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Before  we  went  to the half-hour break you said  that  when  he
looked  inside  one of these discs there were  little  furniture,
give me some information...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well  he  feels that they were bringing him along, giving  him  a
piece  at  a time.  He would see a saucer one day,  the  next  he
would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of  them...after
that he got to see the inside of the thing.  He also got to see a
demonstration  of  it.   He  was told to  stand  back  and  watch
this...and  the thing lights up real bright...I guess  the  power
that's  produced  is  incredible, you need to  produce  your  own
gravitational  field  and it raised up, he wasn't  sure  who  was
flying  it or was it remotely or what.  He watched it  raise  up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down.  Part of the  reason
he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or  the
government,  but because the research that's being done up  there
is being handled in a clumsy fashion.  If they have had these for
as  long as forty years, which is what he believes, they  haven't
come  to far in trying to understand them.  Some of the discs  he
said  he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of  a  reverse
archaeology  process to figure out how they worked.   Some of the
research  going on up there is aimed at trying to  duplicate  the
things  that  these machines can do using earth technologies  and
earth  materials and he says it just can't be done.   The key  to
the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it
does not exist on our periodic charts,  he believes that wherever
it came from its a naturally occurring element,  he says we  have
500  pounds of this stuff up there,  just a little tiny sliver of
it produces incredible amounts of power.   Its the '115' that  we
will  not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the  reasons
that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are
working,  putting  their energy into trying to master the secrets
of  gravity  and the secrets of anti-matter technology  and  here
we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job  with
it  -- this  little batch of scientists hidden out in the  desert
are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...

                          CHUCK HARDER
But this is kind of common with the United States  government...I
read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount
of  material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll  find  where
one group in one part of the country is working on a project  and
I'll  get a clipping where another group is working on  the  same
project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,    Yeah   --   that's   exactly   right...he    said    the
compartmentalization  up  there was very severe as well  so  that
nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill  the
beans as he has been trying to do.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Alright,  what does he feel the public should know and what  does
he feel should be done?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was  to
save  his  own  life.  He started having some  problems  when  it
became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone  else
about this.

                          CHUCK HARDER
We're talking about Bob Lazar now...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him,  calling
him  up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang  up!
He  tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and  the
meetings didn't come off,  he says somebody took a shot at him on
the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to
kill  him,  they could.   Maybe perhaps they were just trying  to
shut him up.   He feels that what is going on up there is a crime
against  the entire scientific community...not only the  American
people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't  been
told  alien  technology exists,  but also against the  scientific
community.  So, what else can I tell ya?

                          CHUCK HARDER
What does he say about the aliens?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He's  reluctant  to talk about that, apparently he did  see  some
aliens up there...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and  I  don't
think  I should go much further on that...part of the  discussion
until  I can talk to him, but he has indications that  there  are
aliens up there, at least one...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Live?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in  our
reports  because I couldn't confirm any thing of that  nature,  I
couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...

                          CHUCK HARDER
What did they look like?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Your  classic  Grey...the  little  big-headed  almond   eyed-grey
skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of  the
UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as  well
because it sounds so crazy...

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  don't  think it's crazy at all, there was an article,  let  me
digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front
page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of
the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced  two
of  the  grapes with cyanide a couple of hours  before  the  FDA,
stumbled  on them and it was an inside job apparently  while  the
grapes  were in the inspection station...and it was not  done  on
the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little
grapes  that  almost  bankrupted the country of  Chile!   If  two
little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The  Wall
Street  Journal  about the questions about the  truthfulness  and
what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever
get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Well,  I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if
this is true;  how can the government keep this a secret all this
time?   A  story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on
other things, how could the coverup exist?

                          CHUCK HARDER
Oh, I'll tell you...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
To  which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked  the
question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the
world  to keep a secret because if it does come out, little  bits
and pieces, who's going to believe it?

                          CHUCK HARDER
Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...

                          CHUCK HARDER
For  those  who  are listening, I  got  into  this  investigation
because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck
you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in
the  past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on  a  pay
phone  coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and  so  on.
So we started buying the books and contacting UFO  organizations.
I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always
there...somehow  he as always there and he said  that  everything
was bunk!  And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine
which is of course is the mouthpiece for the  Military/Industrial
complex  and they certainly wouldn't want this technology  to  be
out!   I  was also amazed when I saw the stealth  bomber  (tests)
live  on  CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at  the  same
place, (runway) do you remember that...?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yes...

                          CHUCK HARDER
My  question is:  If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret,  how
could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on  the
same  runway at a super-secret airforce base?  How could he  have
pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth?  My feeling was,
probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Yeah,  I'd  have  to  agree with you,  because  the  security  up
there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what  they
want out of it.

                          CHUCK HARDER
So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil
Klass  and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed  to  know
everything,  what your saying is the ridicule  factor...if  Billy
Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes  it
to the paper, everybody laughs at him!

                          GEORGE KNAPP
There  are  actual documents the government has  released  (Under
Freedom  of Information Act) that show it has an  active  program
that  started  back in the fifties...the CIA even used  the  term
DEBUNKING,  there  were discussions about using  Walt  Disney  to
produce  cartoons  that made fun of people who  had  seen  flying
saucers...they  were  going to bring Arthur Godfrey in  as  their
spokesperson.   Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained  away
UFO  sightings seen by thousands of people as  the  constellation
ORION,  when  you can only see ORION from the other side  of  the
planet.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Uh huh...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
He  uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain  the
sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and  the
examples  that he is trying to explain occur in  cloudless  skies
where  there  is  no lightning around.  You  mention  the  Condon
report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that  the
government  has done in the past, they commission a  study,  it's
supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,
Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was  nothing
to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at
one  point that the authors of UFO books should be  HORSEWHIPPED!
One  of  the  explanations that came from  the  Condon  Committee
witnessed  by  several people, they described it  as,  a  natural
phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since!  I
don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok,  the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a  UFO)  and
from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens,  some
have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Right...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Why  is  it  in some parts of the world (now) they  report  other
types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have
beautiful photos of some,  and as I told you  off-the-air,  we're
going  to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine  if  someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
You're  talking about the Billy Meier case,  if you want to touch
on that, we also did some investigation on that...

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, go ahead.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Billy Meier,  I've always been intrigued by that,  and wanted  to
check  them  out.   Its been pretty much written-off by  the  UFO
community  but when we put questions to them about the case  they
can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to
Lee  Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case
and  started  going  over the  evidence.   The  photos  had  been
analyzed  by independent experts,  the film footage and video had
been  analyzed,  the metal sample had been confirmed as something
we  don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used  to  produce
this metal,  the landing sites,  the strange circular patterns in
the  grass  that  are now only gaining attention in  Britain  and
other  countries,  all of this stuff had never been  pretty  much
discounted  by  the  UFO community because  Elders  and  Wendelle
Stevens   had   gone  outside  of  the  UFO  community   to   get
confirmation.   The  UFO  people were kept out of it,  the  Billy
Meier  case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness  in  UFOLOGY
and  that's  the  jealousy that permeates  the  field...everybody
wants  to be the only one with the real story of  UFOs,  so  they
kind  of  written this guy off only because he  didn't  cooperate
with them.

                          CHUCK HARDER
We  have been able to get some photos from a source who has  some
negatives  that  were just recently located...some from ten  feet
away,  I used to be in the motion picture business.   If they are
models  they  cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if  a  simple
Swiss farmer could have done it...

                          GEORGE KNAPP
I'd agree with ya,  the reason we got interested in Billy  Meier,
it  goes back to Lazar,  was because Bob Lazar says,  the  saucer
that  he  saw fly,  he dubbed it the sport model,  was  the  same
saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.

                          CHUCK HARDER
The new ones or the old ones?

                          GEORGE KNAPP
The new one.

                          CHUCK HARDER
Ok, that's the one we've got.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Going  back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4,  he saw the nine
saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the
variety  pack,  but  the one he saw fly was like the one  in  the
Meier  photo.   (There  are  Three types  photographed  by  Billy
Meier.)

That's  why we decided to check out the Meier part of  the  (UFO)
story.

>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a
break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr.  and
Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<

                          CHUCK HARDER
I  hope that Mr.  and Mrs.  America make note of the name  George
Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you
know why.

                          GEORGE KNAPP
Someone  should  tell  us what's going on...TV  and  movies  have
conditioned  us...we  won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran  for
President  promised that if he was elected that he vowed to  open
all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and
he  didn't respond.   We want the government to come  clean.   If
that  takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that
should be looked at.  If it is launched we have to make sure that
there  are no CIA,  contractors and the like  involved  otherwise
people  aren't  going to believe it.   We've seen enough of  this
whitewash stuff over the years.  If there's nothing to the story,
then open up the files and prove it to us!

                          CHUCK HARDER
OK,  have the government let the press into these areas and don't
first clean them out...

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--
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The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
		-- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92